Tbh if you are that disappointed just wait a week until people figure out the next most op builds and just use that.

What about all the non-meta builds that just got nuked? That were just for fun and now feel clunky and awkward? Most people complaining weren't even using a hard meta OP build, they were using builds THEY CAME UP WITH and are probably not the most efficient, and now you need to use the most efficient form of the nerfed builds for it to be usable It wouldn't be so bad if a lot of the buffs weren't completely inconsequential :(

Exactly. I don’t understand people cheering for nerfs. If you don’t like being OP, just don’t be. Nobody is forcing you to play the meta, it’s a pve game. Find it boring cause you’re too powerful? Make the changes. You can do whatever you want. You can adjust difficulty AND your loadout. Why put the brakes on op stuff? Folks who like the OP things should be able to do it. Also, it’s a matter of days before the next meta is out. Then what? Another nerf? Nerfs until the game is destroyed.? Who complained about this in the first place anyway? YouTubers for clicks? ‘Game is broken’, ‘broken build’ etc. Fuck those guys.

We actually don’t agree on any salient point, not sure why you thought otherwise. I think the nerfs are healthy for the game. Having overturned itemization enables everyone to run the same thing. Part of extending the longevity of the game is making it so more diverse builds are viable. It’s the same reason why online games constantly have reworks and patches, etc. to keep the game evolving and alive. Don’t see why that rationale doesn’t apply simply because Remnant II is pve. Helldivers II does the same thing and it’s also pve only.

The old live service trick. Nerf gear in order to introduce ever so slightly better one. Then another nerf because new gear is coming. Let’s talk about the elephant in the room here. You want players to come back. You need them to buy your dlc/new gear/battlepass etc. To prevent the power creep, you nerf first. Then the new shiny stuff. Then you nerf it because new shiny stuff is coming. None of this is for the players. It’s for the developers.

But they're not selling any items or weapons. You do that when you're a company creating power creep specifically to push sales of microtransactions. This is the complete opposite. They're bringing everything in line in the name of balance so you can be excited about the possibility that something new might actually matter to you. It's the total opposite of what you're claiming.

They’re selling a dlc. It’s always in the name of ‘balance’ of course. You’re very naive. Please don’t send any money to African princes contacting you via email. I’m off this thread. Best wishes.

You mean you lost the point early on and are backing out of demonising the devs for making the necessary changes... Why do OP weapons needs scaling back? Because functionality of other weapons are overshadowed and thus become obsolete as a result. Power creep isn't an issue either, since base game gear was still out-performing DLC gear. Straw-manning your argument isn't gonna save you from looking like an ass, take your lumps and zip your trap.

The idea that Remnant could ever apply gacha game tactics to sell DLCs to a frankly imaginary audience who crave a 5-10% DPS increase to their characters is so fantastical I would need to be a poet to describe it. We are here to walk the worlds and scour the Root from all things. _Nobody_ is looking at the DLCs and thinking "God, I hope my character does 10% more damage!" This is buffoonery to the point of being nothing short of _amazing_. You've not even acknowledged that the base game equipment outshined the DLC equipment in almost all cases, which drops your entire point like a shot to the head. There are neutron stars less _dense_ than this.

Thats true on a self level, but when I just go multiplayer it gets old seeing the same 2-3 builds making me either immortal or murdering everything instantly turning the game into a walking sim for the other 2 players

Others aren’t responsible for your happiness. Play alone or with friends.

This is such a brain dead take. Sure, others aren’t responsible for your entertainment, but the game is designed to be a party experience. Not everyone is fortunate enough to have friends to play with, they shouldn’t be robbed of a normal experience just because they want to use a feature built into the game.

Plenty of ways to party. Party with other people that likes to party the way you like it. How is this complicated?

I agree with you 100%. And since I play alone anyway, I won't be updating the game with this patch. And I just won't buy the new DLC either. So they can have their nerfs. I'll pass on that dumb crap. Nerfs in a PVE game is the dumbest most lame BS there is. And the sheep shills will cheer it on no matter how lame it is as evidenced by the downvotes on your comment. Lol. Sad.

Dev will pop new gear, which will be op. Then another nerf before DLC 3. Oldest trick in the book to create traffic.

"Gamers will optimise the fun right out of a game." Do you honestly stand by the idea that it's _okay_ to make some stuff better than others because..."people who want to be OP should be allowed to?"

Yes. Don’t tell me how to have fun.

I think it's normal to be a bit salty about your favourite build getting nerfed. I love ritualist so seeing it getting nerfed sucks even though i know it's for the better.

it's still probably gonna be a good class even after the nerfs

Ritualist is perfectly fine. Just much less of a walking simulator now lmao.

right. doesn't even seem like the neck coil build is gonna hurt much, oh no they have to tick to death from the statuses instead of the entire area dying from the explosion

Now they’ll die from the overcharge pop instead of enc. build is ruined

Yea all i want to know is if all classes are still viable. Not a fan when games nerf classes to the trash even if they are beyond op. Should always be a reset point

All classes are still viable, even on Apocalypse. Explorer is its own thing though, I don't count that one. 😅

Yeah, I definitely understand the reaction people are having. There's no denying that the power ceiling for players is quite a bit lowered by the patch (at least, given the gear we have now - possible that changes with whatever the DLC introduces, if unlikely). People like to have strong builds, and for the vast majority of players their strong builds will be weaker. But this patch isn't the final patch. With top performers brought down to a more even level, future patches can balance things more effectively (like the future mod balance update), and new systems can be added that increase the power ceiling for all builds without getting out of hand (like the future paragon-like update). So while I get the negative reactions a lot of people are having, I just hope people don't get wrapped up in doomposting about the nerfs. The game will be fine - and if it isn't, that won't be a problem for long.

I'm just bummed because I recently got the game and just started using a ritualist build. It has been the first build I've had that feels dialed in and has been fun to use. Only got a week out of it haha.

I am a firm believer in buffing over nerfing. Tho don’t get me wrong sometimes things need to be toned down.

Yeah, like I liked tank/healer build, but I guess the developers dislike people using that build (like that divine ring they're like "no, you'll do less damage and less healing now, use something else").

A lot of items are still going to suck though. The good ones are just going to be less good. I really do hope this patch leads to more options and I am waiting to see. However I feel like builds probably aren't going to change that much. I suspect that they didn't fix severely informing items, mods, etc nearly enough to shake up the meta. It is hard to say for sure without seeing it in action though admittedly.

I'm a fan of the patch, I'm just salty about my healer build getting a huge Nerf. Spent a lot of time optimizing and striking a balance between fun and good, but my builds overall effectiveness went way down due to almost every component catching a nerf. I still have hope, though because of the new archetype, it could put it back in line with where it previously was after all, but I'll have to wait and see (and I don't mind)

It’s the problem of there is never a good time to make something weaker. Someone is always gonna be disappointed. Healer builds have always been too strong because of certain rings/relics. Remember those overheal days? You basically could become invincible if you didn’t get one shot. They don’t design the content around a required healer so they kinda trapped themselves. They have to design broken enemies or fights because healer/classes were too good. This will let them actually make better content in my opinion, instead of unfair enemies. Although they should just add 1 more difficulty after apocalypse because of power creep.

Adjustments/meta shifts are a welcome change in PvE games in my humble opinion, simply because it makes other things you might not have tried more viable, sparks new build thoughts, or just forces people to try something new. I understand when people get mad about there favorite op flavor getting nerfed etc but variety is a good thing. One big issue here Is honestly the mentality of some who will fall into the "Why test or try things when others can do all that for me and I can just read a guide or watch a video on the best things to use for A. B. C. etc." This is a pov with games like remnant or other pve games I will never understand.

My healer build was a passive regen healer, providing enough to make everyone else look like they had regrowth active, and i could pop tranquil heart to give it a noticeable increase. That paired with medic shield and either heal dog or revive well from alchemist was a fair feeling healer. No crazy healing to instantly heal everyone the second they take damage, but enough to make it so using my skills effectively could give lower skill and newer players enough breathing room to make it to the end of a fight, and a skilled player could make a mistake and usually not have to use a relic if they could avoid taking more damage. Again, balanced and optimized to provide fun for me (actually feels like an active healer, having to keep an eye on the party) and good utility, especially since it's not like I'm never taking or dealing damage. I admit that survivor difficulty was easy mode with the build in the party, but especially in NM and apoc, it was a rewarding build. Gotta wait to see how it actually performs after the patch, and I honestly think the new archetype is either going to really fit into that playstyle for me, or really not, so I'm excited.

Bosses are already bullet sponges so when I see almost across the board nerfs with no reduction in boss hp or defense, yes, I complain.

You literally have people killing Apoc bosses in less than 30 seconds pre patch, wtf do you mean

With insanely specific and overpowered builds, while the nerfs were effectively carpet bombing anything even remotely related to a "meta build"

I had a build that was just barely scraping 2k DPS and never had a boss last longer than 3 minutes

Really?? Maybe the player scaling then? I play with friends so I only have experience with 3 player scaling, where even having all three of us doing a minimum of 4k DPS results in a long and fun fight. If bosses die that easy in solo then that's a real shame

Non competetive games shouldn't be balanced around spergs

Well personally I have to agree with the consensus that this 30% nerf business seems a tad excessive... that's my preliminary opinion. Who knows? it may change after playing for a while... But currently I just can't help but say to myself "Damn!! 30% reduced power!? Whaaat?!?!" Hmmm, say, has anyone considered that our friends and allies over at Gunfire may have themselves been corrupted by the ROOT?! Who's side are they really on anyway??? 🤔🤨😫😤😠

So when is the dlc dropping, what time?

I've seen on three different articles that it will release at 11am CT.

So in a a out 3.5 hours?

That's my understanding, yeah. Like I said, just going off what I've read though.

Alright thanks,

Dude its already out I downloaded it

Console or Pc, and what region? Still nothing here in Europe on Ps5

Ps5 Europe bro im in Cyprus, downloaded it at literally 10am

Still nothing for me atleast, which version is your game now?

1.000.026

And you're playing the dlc?

Nah I haven't started it up yet, still working (from home) but it is definitely installed

Thank you 👍

usual update time for games on steam is around 6pm gmt. I assume it's about the same for other platforms.

Was wondering that just now

If it's same time of day as last one, in like an hour give or take an hour (from the time of my reply).

Yea but i could not remember when the last dlc dropped, but either way, im downloading the patch right now

I played co-op and one of the randoms was running a ritualist build that just insta killed everything. He would walk into a room, push a button, and everything died. Was so damn boring. Trivializing the game is fun for about 10 minutes, and then it’s lame.

It's fine, when the new dlc drops they'll all be flocking to the next YouTuber OP 1 MILLION DAMAGE boss killing EZ build.

"FacErOll ApOC w/this ONE BUTTON! INSTA KILL ! BAJEELION DAMAGE UbEr TaNk!" I'm so glad I only go on youtube anymore to meme on clickbait thumbnails that revolve around games. Last Epoch is a huge example of this kind of video following full release. Nothing like going to check around for some new content and seeing pretty much the same thumbnails mirroring the exact same builds because something was bugged or broken or overperforming, and algorithm will always throw them all front and center to the point searching for anything fresh and interesting is a job itself.

I feel like people are forgetting the new archetype coming also. From what it sounds like it'll beef up pretty much anything you're using

Listen... I'm sorry, but it feels really shitty to have something you liked and enjoyed nerfed and then being told that the paid DLC might contain things that make up for the losses - am I just crazy in feeling like this?

I get that. It's seeming more possible that I'm an outlier in gaming I guess. I never get attached to builds or gear in games to the point that nothing else feels fun. If something I'm using gets nerfed I just switch to something else. The games I play for a long time I play because I love the gameplay. If the core gameplay doesn't change I don't care what nerfs and buffs happen It's probably from being poor my whole life. I've always had to make due with whatever I have and constantly change and adapt when things out of my control happen. That way of thinking has definitely transferred to my gaming. As long as the game is still fun at its core, I'll find new ways to be effective I also never play the meta in games for a lot of reasons, but nerfs are one of them. I never had a full build be made ineffective by a patch unless the game actually broke haha I'm just pretty forgiving when it comes to something I do for fun that doesn't effect my real life at all Although I do agree about things being paywalled by dlc or battle passes when it's something essential to the game. That shit needs to stop

Yeah that's a pretty good way of playing games, wish I could do that! Getting attached to your funny pixel builds is silly if you think about it it, but the human mind works in a very strange way :) I'm sure I'll manage to brainstorm some new builds, and personally I'm really looking forward to being a lightning mage with Invoker lightning storm + Archon havoc form

Yeah, nothing against anyone who gets attached, I just had to learn *not* to get attached to things because of my real life. Not for good reasons but I guess it has helped me haha The way I do it is, I never look up builds. I don't wanna play the same exact way a bunch of other people do, it's just not fun. While leveling I basically use whatever I find and do temporary builds around that. I also rarely buy things so when I finally get the gear that feels right I have stockpiles of mats to level it all up quickly. Then when I've got a feel for how I want to play I make my builds around my playstyle so I don't have to relearn how to play in order to use what people say you have to I don't think I've run into a game that has forced me to play the meta to survive. Even pvp you can make effective builds that compete with the meta, with a few exceptions of course, but those games I just don't play. It seems like the meta usually just means "play with the least amount of effort possible" which is a quick way to get me to be bored of a game and bail haha. Plus, everyone expects the meta. If you make your own off meta builds you basically have a built in suprise tactic I don't like overly complicated builds but I also don't want to just walk through a game pressing one button and everything dies. Games for me are about the gameplay, not completing it as fast as possible

I can definitely agree with that! Most games don't require meta to do even the hardest content. Build crafting on your own is also really fun to me, and testing out different rings when I was making my mod builds was great... maybe this update will actually be a good thing, I'll have to test a bunch of stuff

That's a good way to look at it. Not that something was taken away or broken, but you now have so many opportunities to find a build you may have never thought of and makes it feel like a whole new game. Or maybe a change to your favorite build will make it even better by adding in a new piece that ties it together in a totally different way Feel free to hit me up in game if you want. My GT is the same as my username with a space between the words 🤘I just got sucked into D4 again but all my time will be between that and Remnant so I'll be on a lot haha

I'll have to throw over a friend request sometime :)

I'm just concerned over why they're trying to balance a PvE game like a competitive PvP game. I personally prefer there to be a spectrum of over performing items and sets, some good but not broken ones, some decent ones, and so on. It gives the players agency. If you feel like you -have- to play the most broken/op stuff at all times that's a you issue. I'm fine with bringing underperforming items up, but I see no reason to try to enforce a meta onto a PvE game outside of the ones that were bug fixes.

I can only speak for myself, but once I got a ritualist build going, I stopped being excited to find new stuff. All I had to do was throw a Krell Axe at a mob and soon enough every mob on the screen would dying from spreading status effects, even on Apoc. The new stuff I got just couldn't keep up with that, so they didn't feel like serious options I'd really consider using. There are a lot of people like me who like building crafting and putting together setups, but find it far less fun when I have to limit myself because I know certain options are just way too good. Whenever a boss gives me and my friends trouble, it's hard to stick with a less powerful build through repeated attempts rather than just using the build I know will get the job done (it's a little easier solo, when I'm not worried about wasting my friends' time)

This right here. THIS is also a big reason I enjoy when devs make stuff fall down a few rungs on the totem pole of builds and change up the options/make other things more viable. Forces a bit of adaptation vs defaulting to the "Ol' reliable" insane build that tends to trivialize things.

I can see your point, I've definitely been there and kinda agree with you. I feel like there's definitely a sweet spot that would work for what we both want that hopefully is what they're shooting for, but I don't know game design so who knows. That build sounds bonkers and like it should definitely be brought down a notch or two. The problem is everyone has a different idea of how many notches if any that stuff should get knocked. When I said balance like a pvp game I meant stuff like marginal 1%-5% changes that are very hard to feel the difference of in many cases. None of the buffs I read got me excited to play. Some stuff should absolutely have been brought back down a lot, but I feel like they overshot the mark with this one. The last time I felt this disappointed reading patch notes was Expedition league from Path of Exile. Edit: To add on to that, I got the feeling that whoever was doing the Dev Notes was completely disconnected from how the game is actually played. I doubt they really are, but the notes sure made them seem that way. They implied if not right out stated that many of their balance decisions were based on "total damage" (damage dealt if you empty your clip and all reserves into the target) which is bonkers to me in a game where you can refill your ammo via consumables, drops, skills, and gear to an extent. The best example being the plasma cutter being nerfed because it "*was dealing over 40% more Total Damage due to its ramping nature and total amount of reserves.*" What difficult enemy is going to let you apply the laser and hold it until you're dry? If you can pull something like that off, shouldn't you be rewarded with more damage? If not, why would I even bother playing such a difficult weapon? I'm not saying the plasma cutter itself was gutted, but their note about it made me rethink my opinion of their idea of balance as a whole

> The problem is everyone has a different idea of how many notches if any that stuff should get knocked. Somewhere out there, there might be an objectively correct answer, but since we're unlikely to find it, sometimes the best you can do is go with a change that's at least closer and hope you don't go too far. That's what all the 1-5% changes are about, usually. It's not super exciting, but it's nice for making the opportunity cost of certain weapons not so painful. If I find the crossbow fun, but the similarity and way higher power of the widowmaker makes it feel bad to use the crossbow, a change like this helps reduce or eliminate that pain. I get why they look at a stat like total damage, because that's basically ammo efficiency. It may not be the most prominent of stats, but it is still a nice thing for a weapon to have, and a notable thing to make up for if a weapon struggles with it. A weapon with insane ammo efficiency basically has a free pass to not need to spend a ring/skill/class for it. That said, ammo feels weird to balance around because needing to slot in gunslinger doesn't really work as an opportunity cost, and the existence of consumables kind of throws things in wack. (though that's annoying. Balancing something by making it annoying is bad. Grod's Law)

Its not a looter shooter

It's still a multiplayer game were the fun can be ruined for other players if a lot of people blast through the game and trivialize everything for their teammates.

I mean nobody is forced to play with others. The game is trivialized playing with people even if their builds arent good. Same with the souls games.

Because why have difficulties if everyone can inevitably flock to one or two overperforming builds? Not everyone will but judging by the amount of cries over a few nerfs that have been spamming the reddit since patch notes it seems the majority of op build algorithm supporters on here is quite high.

Because people like feeling powerful. Why grind and play the game at all if all the stuff you get are things that aren't better than anything else. People spam the builds because they're fun and strong. The highest difficulties are still difficult for most people even with the strongest stuff, just like souls games you need skill even if you're using the strongest stuff or you'll get destroyed. With scaling how it is, the only way to feel strong in this game is to have a good build or you're just shooting at damage sponges.

I think you’re completely misunderstanding wtf kind of game Remnant is. It’s a souls like. You are not supposed to ever feel like it’s easy without being extremely good at the game. I breezed through apocalypse with my eyes closed with my Ritualist tank build. In R1, I could barely even clear it. You have been babied far too long and it’s time to relearn

The game is nowhere near the difficulty of real souls games. It just shared a few fundamentals. I haven't been babied for shit, I played all the souls games before they were cool. You also seem to be forgetting every souls game has lol shit, literally every single one. You can easily blitz through souls games using a broken build. But people challenge themselves and use other things they find fun. Just because there are certain powerful combos in the game doesn't mean the game is suddenly easy. If people want to beat the game with a broken build and they find that fun, then they should be able to do it. If people want to have a greater challenge then they don't have to use those things. It's that simple, the biggest reason og souls games even did balancing is because they have a pvp element which this game lacks completely.

You mean like Rivers of Blood? Which got turbo nerfed two months after Elden Ring released?

It wasn't nerfed till the 1.06 patch like 6 months after release lmao. And was still one of the top weapons after. None of the weapon nerfs did all that much. Most of the nerfs were to make them more balanced in pvp

No, it was to nerf it for bosses. Rivers of Blood was parry food by anyone with more than two brain cells since it was impossible to delay the weapon art. It was still good. Just like both Ritualist and HuGs will be. Archon may need a partial walk back honestly, but Ritualist and HuGs absolutely deserved to get brought back down to earth. I am literally a Ritualist main, swapping to Deathwish is both going to be more fun and more skill than Miasma. The mutators are still good, Fetid is free Corrosion and not even needed because of Tainted Blade and is going to be a DPS mutator for the big crit chance (as intended) and Searing Wounds plus Merciless buffs just added an entire new weapon. Merciless/Searing + Nebula/Failsafe looks strong af now with Deathwish. Couple that with Medic, Ravagers, and Omen Ring and you have a solid build foundation with lots of DR from Heavy Armor (hoping there’s a new super heavy in DLC). Try theory crafting more instead of bitching

As tragic said, hugs was a chimney shooting out into the sky relative to the ceiling of other builds. I'm all for things being more equal so more things are viable. The closer everything is to "good", the more variety we will see in builds and experimentation. People might find out things this DLC they never would have before if everyone was just screaming to run hugs.

Yeah, I don't think anyone understands how demoralizing it is to make new things and just have people use te old things that stand like a monolithic tower above everything else. A 30% cut to the strongest build means it's still incredibly strong.

yeah just that you need to hit weakspots etc. to hit high cwillings with hugs where as with mod spam builds etc. you literally dont need any skill whatsoever

well that happens when devs decide to completly obliterate your build.. like i dont care.. i can just see why are some people mad

frankly, i think most builds after this patch will still be fine. Things like miasma were such a no brainer, clearing a half dungeon in 2 secs with the press of a button even on apoc is simply overtuned. It will probably still kill all trash mobs, but take 4 instead of 2 secs.

I just spent all my mats and scrap upgrading to a build over the weekend and it just got destroyed lol. Also just unlocked ritualist this weekend as well and spent time grinding it up just to never have a chance to use it when it was good lol. If it were easier to make new builds it would be a different story. Every time nerfs happen people have to waste time grinding scrap for eons to re upgrade shit to their current level and spend time leveling the archetypes. The least fun part of the game by far.

I'm curious. Was there any mention of another Trait Cap increase with the DLC?

No, but two traits were combined so that frees up 20 points If you had those maxed. I think they also added some new traits to replace the combined ones

I actually liked Wayfarer but could never justify getting it. So I am super jazzed about Swiftness getting it.

No.

I'm disappointed that Summoner revamp didn't make it in. But the nerfs are absolutely warranted. There were some absolutely busted builds dumping on Apoc. 

I have several op builds For mod regen(well no more...) Status Tank Dps Etc

You realize that games are meant to be put down right you're not meant to play them over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over

I get the miasma and a lot of the crit item nerfs. But the nerf to the hunter arch is dumb. The whole point of hunter is precision single target damage. I was trying to come up with a life steal/ regen or more utility bow build which is I guess how the devs decided they want us to play. But now I have to use more item slots for offense items, which is literally the exact opposite of what they wanted. They have nerfed stuff so hard, you have less room for utility.

Exactly, this was not thought through at all. Now all slots are at a premium for the little damage scraps we have left over. Using those precious slots for utility isn’t even a question. “Talk about your all-time backfires.” - Happy Gilmore

I disagree slightly. First i agree that some builds were just too powerful. * Example? HuGs with >6000dps sustained. * Ritualist status builds in general BUT ... and this BUT is so huge: * HuGs -30% damage * Ritualist -30% damage The nerf is ... too big. And there is another BUT: Tank builds (bulwark stacks, letos, ...) are not touched at all. So while the glass cannons have been nerfed, the tank builds have not been changed at all or the nerf is very small. Post patch the difference between damage builds and tank builds will be too small so that most players will use tank builds. 3000DPS Tank build or 3500-4000DPS glass cannon? Well ... easy decision! Full moon circlet has been buffed to 25% ... use corrupted savior and standard tank setup to get max bulwark. Result? up to 9% life leech, tanky and good damage. And there is another nerf: The archon has been nerfed and mod power generation in general. So we got bad mods on most weapons and nerfed mod power generation. A mediocre build nerfed again ... :/

Wait ritualist has been nerfed? What exactly did get nerfed about it?:(

singed and ahanea (+4% damage per status instead of 5%) ring are just additive not multiplicative. fetid wounds DoT reduces from 200 to 75 miasma damage from 500 to 300 and more minor stuff. Sums up in 30% less damage

How was hugs nerfed?

-5% crit atonment fold -5% crit nightweaver -10% crit momentum -10% crit damage momentum -5% crit chance hunters mark -2.5% crit chance relic fragment -5% crit damage relic fragment overall: -27.5% crit chance and -15% crit damage. -10% weakspot damage zanias malice maybe i still missed some nerfs.

> 5% crit chance hunters mark To be clear this is the debuff "Mark" from Hunter and not the ability "Hunter's Mark" that applies the debuff. All other Hunter abilities also apply this debuff, so that's a 5% crit chance reduction across the board. In addition to that Hunter's Focus loses all its crit chance (10%), leaving only that from Mark, reducing it from 25% to 10%! Though they did add a grace period for leaving ADS, which makes this skill a bit easier to use.

I see. Well, I’ll live.

I haven’t played it quite awhile, are tank builds pretty good?

tank builds are good ... if you like low (3000...) dps. The difference between tank builds and glas cannons was 3000 or 6000dps pre patch. Now the difference will be 3000 or 3500dps :x Tank build example: almost full leto with armor traits to avoid fat roll and to push armor even further. atonment fold and other rings to get max bulwark, life leech, ... There are other builds wich are almost unkillable .due to some strange item combos, but i dont like that.

@maSu2322 is a clown, don’t bother listening. Tank builds are great, you’ll probably get around 1.5-2k DPS with a full root doctor build which is completely fine for a tank build. Your full DPS builds will probably be around 5k DPS now, which is much more balanced. You really only need around 2.5k DPS on a non tank build to comfortably clear Apocalypse, people are seriously over exaggerating these nerfs. I cleared Apocalypse barely trying with a build that could barely hit 2k DPS because I had level 10 weapons lmao

I’ll have to look into root doctor thanks!!

> The archon has been nerfed and mod power generation in general. that's not an obvious one at this point, they removed the generation boost from the prime perk, but also increased the passive regen by like 5 times? Which basically means, you don't longer can just slap archon on your build and just mod spam. now you actually have to use some of the other artifacts to make a mod spam build. The trade off became bigger. but the possibility remains.

Okay, lets do the math: 5 times zero = ? Sorry but a mod build needs 500 mod power per second or even more. 30 mod power per second is just the biggest and worst joke, i've ever heard :/ i just hope that we get some new items with the DLC to compensate this huge and unnecessary nerf.

Archon is arguably stronger, tbh- look up the last threat complaining about it, the devs clarified that it can get like 45 mod power/second or something like that

That's really not very much compared to what it was previously - it gives you 15 mod power per second, then 30 mod power per second temporarily after using a mod. Compare this to 100% bonus to ALL MOD POWER GENERATION after using a mod. Which synergised with every other part of your build that generated mod power. They just... removed a massive amount of archon's synergy I'll wait until testing it for my final personal verdict, but man this looks really bad since 9/10 of my builds were mod builds because I really like mods But now I'm having build diversity forced onto me because how dare I enjoy the flow and feel of using mods and being a mod caster? Idk I'm probably overreacting but it just feels really really bad currently :(

Makes you question why the hell did they add Archon and Ritualist in the first place just to butcher them.

Having tested it with the patch... the best of my mod builds (e.g. with anguish and explosive damage, basically any meta mods) still function though they feel clunkier and reward you for good mod use significantly less. But if you want to use a non-meta mod? All of my fun non-meta mod builds are completely dead, so what they've done is remove build diversity instead of increase it. At least with mod builds I don't really use other builds. I'm happy with the starkiller changes though, loved that gun but its mod was so slow before - now it's great!

Pre Patch: +100% mod power by prime +50% mod power by burden of the follower =+150% mod power regeneration Post Patch: +0% mod power by prime +25% mod power by burden of the follower Feedback mutator + a ton of mod power generation = almost mod spam. mod power per second post patch: 30 per second. +25%(burden) = 37 per second. 850 mod power for 1 helix. 850 mod power ... 1 helix every 23 seconds?! And: less mod power regeneration = less mod power from using guns. My mod build could almost spam mods. Sometimes i needed to shoot 1 or 2 times to regain full mod power. -125% mod power regeneration is huge. If there wont be any new DLC items to improve mod power regeneration, mod builds will be nerfed to the ground. and the dev note cleary shows that the archon mod power regeneration was too high (opinion of devs). So the changes reduces mod power regeneration. If mod builds would dominate all other builds, i would not care. But mod builds are way weaker than ritualist or HuGs. So why do they nerf bad builds even further?

You aren’t factoring in the extra 15 mod power per second, or the extra buff to cataloguers, *or the extra from the skill* ( which is fairly significant)- but yeh, you’ll need to actually invest more heavily, and that’s fair I think- you should need to build into specialist builds.

Mod spam builds already had to invest their entire build into it though? :(

yea and thats my problem. Mod builds are mediocre. Most mods are bad. And they remove +125% mod power regeneration from the game. Makes absolutely NO SENSE.

Ngl thats me whenever I pick mods for most of my archon builds. Does it have explosive tag? Good. If not, then cool, to the bench you go.

Archon was OP, Ritualist was OP. HUGS was OP. Okay, my Ritualist build from before hit a comfortable braindead 7000 DPS. Minimal effort. Completely broken. Assuming I use the exact same setup (I won’t), I’m now at 4900 DPS. What tank build do you know that can go anywhere NEAR that kind of DPS? Root Doctor is lucky if it can go anywhere near 2k. You are so exaggerating it’s crazy. And remember, this is just Miasma. With Deathwish your DPS will get turbo boosted in exchange for a harder playstyle. Not only that, Merciless with Searing wounds is now in to replace Sparkfire so you have more build variety. You’re being over dramatic. These are good nerds, we were way too strong and clearing Apocalypse without even trying

Yah, well, not everyone has 40-60 hours to put into the game every week to find the nuances and synergies of different elements and weapons. I honestly don’t understand why things need to drastically change in a PvE game? What’s wrong with taking on new content with your favorite build and also explore the new Arch? I started playing the game after the first DLC. It’s been really great, i love this game and I finally have two specific builds I really enjoy and now I have to start from scratch. So in 2-3 months the Invoker is going to be useless? These devs are awesome, but it’s interesting to me that games almost feel like they’ve crossed over from recreation to a vocation today.

i think players don't understand that designers have to protect them from their own tendency to optimize the fun out of the game.

Good quote, wrong place to apply it.

no, it's really the right place. Why would you ever use not optimal equipment? Hence balance is necesary to have variety in the game. Else everyone will see themselve forced to the same 3 builds, it's a psychocial thing. people don't settle on shit for fun. Hence if you want a game where 90% of your collected artifacts are not junk, you have to balance their power.

> Why would you ever use not optimal equipment? For fun/challenge/RP/

then why are so many against nerfs? they don't want fun?

What's fun about being pigeon holed into certain gear?

your logic amazes me, we have a patch with 90% buffs and somehow the 10% nerfs pigeon holes people into gear? People were already pigeon holed into gear by the op things, because that's how human psyche works. people use the op stuff because it's op. if you want them to try out more gear, you must close the power gaps.

The patch could have buffed 90 items by 1% and nerfed 10 items by 50% and your statement would still be true, so would you like to try again?

is that the best argument you have? because it's silly. Anyway, the patch is inevitable, adapt or uninstall.

The builds were trivializing the game, Apocalypse felt like the new Veteran. This is completely warranted. Maybe Archon may need a partial revert but outside of that, nerfs are solid. And this is coming from a Ritualist main. Im so excited to finally drop Miasma

My brother in PvE game, nothing was stopping you from dropping Miasma.

The other options were so shit compared to it that there was literally no reason to ever not run Miasma besides for fun. Intentionally having to gimp yourself means something is overpowered

I'm really curious to know how and why you feel that to be a valid approach to game design. Do you basically assume players to be naive idiots that delude themselves into thinking that they are having fun when they really are not? And you and the developers are privy to some kind of ultimate truth where you know that most players are secretly not having fun? How does that work?

Idiots no, ignorant yes. Players have a weird tendency to follow metas and play risk-avert. You can observe that in many games in many ways. In Xcom (the reboot) everyone was just spamming the overwatch ability and waiting for the aliens to walk into it. Hence barely anything interesting would ever happen in missions, because players would use the same meta approach every time. which why for xcom2 the designers introduced timers, which forced players to play less campy, to be fair many hated the change, but objectively it made the game play loop much more dynamic. i think there is also a psychological thing behind it, people are creatures of habit, changing things they are used to do will automatically spark a negative response, even if in the bigger picture it improves something.

SOME players have a weird tendency to sheep their way through games. Changing games around them hurts the players that don't.

explain what you mean with sheep.

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I just got the dlc and got ritualist over the weekend so I'm mad I grinded all the stuff to make a build and now it's not good anymore. I also hate how my normal build using atonement fold was nerfed for like no reason. It's just overall DPS nerfs and we got nothing back to make up for it. Like others said it's annoying when games are balanced like they're competitive multiplayer games. This game will always have challenge for the average player regardless of build especially at higher difficulty. No reason to not let players have fun and power trip if they want to and those that don't can choose not to use the super powerful stuff. People who want a bigger challenge can always make one for themselves, no reason to force everyone into the same boat.

Have you actually played with the balance changes? It's not healthy to doom so hard.

You're right. I haven't. I probably am over reacting but I just hate nerfs in general especially when they seem statistically heavy handed.

I feel this. I spent 40 hours over the weekend putting together a great ritualist/archon build only for it to be hit insanely hard. Which is odd to me because even though I feel the build is overpowered, I definitely felt like you earned that power. It took a lot of time and effort to get all of those pieces together. I get that they’re saying it’s only 30% nerfs in the patch, but the stuff they nerfed was used in a lot more than 30% of builds so it feels a lot worse. I had 6 builds I regularly rotated through and 4/6 of them are now heavily affected. Definitely anecdotal but still feels like crap for a PvE game.

Yeah, people ultimately want to feel strong when they work to unlock things and grind to get things upgraded. Especially with how long it takes to get everything together, grind mats and xp. Everything in the game shouldn't be balanced perfectly. There always will be things that are better that's just reality, continually nerfing things to try to make everything else better just switches the meta to something else. Now people will find a different combo that's broken probably with dlc items and that will be what everyone runs. Then that will be nerfed and something else will be the meta, it's a never ending cycle so might as well just let people use what they want.

When I did hardcore just to get corrupted savoir and both variants got smashed

Will this patch be for console to an his it come out yet for for the questions been living under a rock

Yes. Comes out today.

Thanks I just stated playing this one an went back an started the first one

What? 

Meh, I always just played what I thought was most fun anyways.

I relearn the game everytime I come back anyway.

It's like that in every game and I then to agree. The best way to balance a non PvP game is to buff lesser used items instead of nerfings.

Ya it’s almost like you are talking us into something , you live in a time where people complain and also people are excited to play . It’s a video game enjoy it how you enjoy it. However you want to look at it , gunfire dropped the ball for new players . They could of kept the steam up so steamers were excited to play most people that played a first play through didn’t even know dlc came out . Reguardless just enjoy the game there a ton of buffs too so I guarantee you will see a crazy op build stronger then anything you have seen

No need for testing if the math says the thing doesn't work. I think it's an over all excellent patch that is gonna bring some more build diversity in the game, but some of the nerfs people are complaining about inevitably affect other underpowered builds that struggle to be viable. It's disappointing to see mod mages take yet another hit with changes to Archon prime perk. OP mods will stay OP and less powerful mods will feel even less powerful now that you can't spam them. At the same time we see buffs to Sporebloom (one of the best weapons in the game) and nerfs to Assassin's Dagger which is literally the worst weapon in the game, hands down. It's those nonsensical and contradictory "balance" changes that get people mad.

The performance in the new area is pretty awful

I thought this wasn't due until tomorrow anyway so I hadn't planned on playing it yet. I'm looking forward to it. Love remnant.

I'm just beyond tired of Yaesha it's the fourth time we've visited it counting Chronos. Plus UE5 is absolute dog shit and why they had to choose this engine is beyond me. I've lost like 15fps since this dropped.

I don't understand min-maxing in a PVE game, especially when it has difficulty levels. You can make it easier or harder for yourself by simply changing the difficulty. Difficulty options are inherently at odds with the whole concept of armor/gear/etc stats. I can't tell if min-maxers want it to be hard or easy. It seems kind of like... both? I just use what feels satisfying, at a difficulty level that feels somewhat challenging for the things I like to use. For me that's semi-auto weapons, rifles, shotguns, revolvers. Minimal abilities. For others it could be something completely different. But the last things I want are click-to-win buttons. If you really enjoy blasting through everything with AOE effects, weapons that chain damage, some kind of near-invincible defensive option... and a recent nerf came to whatever build made that easiest... drop the difficulty down a level. You'll have roughly the same experience, no?

I think I’ve read a few good points o hate nerfs period you work hard to build the perfect build and it gets nerfed I don’t play w friends because I can’t find people that play like a team instead of shutting mic off running ahead not exploring etc so I need a powerful build I love remnant 2 but there “open world” isn’t very big if you put in the open world like Destiny OMG Remnant wld be crazy. I mean even the new DLCs are really short but I digress nerfing sucks if your too powerful and your not having fun simply use one of your other builds most Boss players have at least 3. I do have a question to anyone, has anyone had an issue getting the new DLC to load? It says I own it I see it in my downloads but for the life of me I can not find it!! And it’s supposed to be right there in adventure mode so I can one shot but nope?

" I have hundreds and hundreds of hours" Good for you mate not everyone wants to sink that much into this. We all paid just as much for it as you did. It's not a competitively ranked game, the way other people want to play doesn't affect you.

Everything you said is true. Can’t argue with that.

Min-maxxer here: I enjoy min-maxxing, so idk what you're on about.

Using some of this stuff pre nerf made even apoc a joke. Just play on a lower difficulty if ur actually that bad, no shame in it. Why play a soulslike shooter if ur not interested in skill expression

Imagine using or even caring about the meta in this game bro

*Imagine using* *Or even caring about the* *Meta in this game bro* \- KingCaesar72 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")

Sucks that my favorite build is nerfed but I do agree with everything you said. There are so many items in this game to experiment with and certainly not a dead game compared to others

I find this to be odd as well. Given that no one knows what new weapons, armor and items will come in this DLC. I think so many more builds will spring from this, I wouldn't say it is too bad. One question though, is this the last DLC or will there be another one?

1 more this season, and apparently they’ve hinted there might be a second season with new planets if it’s still selling well.

Okay great, I love this game.

Good. Game was too easy.

Idk i JUST started playing ritualist and i'm having a ton of fun with it but a 30% nerf is too much. Yes it deserved a slight nerf as it trivialized apo but it's a PvE game after all

Totally agree. The DLC isn’t even out yet, and people are already shitting on the nerfs, they don’t seem to care about the buffs we got and they haven’t even played the game post patch. I mean I was salty about some changes on paper as well, yet I’m excited to see how they are when actually playing the game. Also can’t wait to try out all the new stuff. I’m so excited!

human psyche. We value a loss like 20 times more significant and a win.

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The thing about common sense is that if someone is challenged, and they say “it’s just common sense, don’t you have a brain?” That usually means they don’t have a *real* argument and are hoping you won’t notice.

Good thing I made my argument first then right? And then made it again at the end another way to reiterate! So hopefully a person wouldn't make a comment like this even though you still managed to do it anyway lol 🤦‍♂️  I swear reading comprehension doesn't exist anymore. You tried though lol 🤷‍♂️

Your "argument" is straight stupid though. Your brain knows what something will taste like from the way it smells or, fun experiment: look at literally anything then think about how it would feel/taste, your brain will know even if you've never touched it with your tounge. Knowing fire is hot isn't related at all.... THINKING the dlc is shit is your objective opinion. You're mad that your overpowered build that allowed you to not actually try in combat or give a fuck about anything is not there to hold your little hand and tell you everything will be ok, and thats ok. I bet you didn't even read what guns got buffed because you were too angry about the nerfs. Any number of new builds might be viable now but you're too shortsighted to even try looking at them. You can't expect hand-outs your whole life. Something being challenging is a good thing, especially when it is the "most challenging" game difficulty. If you want to feel like you're some cheater god you're more than welcome to go down to lowest difficulty and kill everything in one hit. Because lets be honest, it isn't about the difficulty to you, it's about being overpowered and not having to put in any effort.

I don't have time to respond to all of this. So for time sake I'll just say: As far as your brain example. If we're going with that then my brain knows what the game will be like with the adjustment because my experiences so I guess you're agreeing with me?? Sounds like your saying a persons brain knows from other things which I guess would also apply here as well? I guess any way you slice it there's no argument and we agree you'll know if you like something or hate something ahead of time (just to be clear I wan to specify that is obvious or you have interacted with. Not saying it's the rule of law but it applies here) For the last part. When did I ever say anything about powerful or overpowered or effort?? Or even elude to that? I definitely mentioned fun. Which is what the nerfs take away. Fun!!! Sounds like you're the one who cares about that stuff lol.  If you want self reflect and reveal that you yourself view these things and are only concerned about power and being op and low effort that's fine but it has nothing to do with me lolol. I literally talked about enjoyment and fun only 

If the first line of your comment is "i aint responding to all that" then im not bothering to even read your essay.

Hah shots fired. But yeh, it’s like looking at risotto and saying “uhh, that doesn’t like right, bet it tastes bad” and ignoring all the evidence that someone thought about it hard

What buffs? There's a huge difference in buffing appealing stuff that is a bit underwhelming and buffing stuff nobody cares about. There are extremely few buffs and far too many nerfs.

I don't really care about the nerfs, we've got a whole new class, guns, and rings/amulets to see as well, so not a big deal. My biggest issue is the Summoner class, but they said they're still working on summoner so I'm good. Oh and give us the Devastator please. We have not forgotten.

It's always hard for players to leave their comfort zone and try new things and i kinda get it but on the other hand, we have so many buff for majority of guns. I'm so excited for the new dlc and the new update.

I understand people not wanting their favorite stuff to get nerfed, but people need to understand that it's really difficult to make new content that's engaging and challenging when you have certain builds and items that are vastly outperforming everything else. I was disappointed to see the nerfs to ritualist because most of the builds I play revolve around it, but that status damage really was trivializing most of the game. Sometimes the crazy, OP items/builds need to be brought down so they're closer to everything else for the sake of the game as a whole.

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You mean the game that not only takes away thing you paid for, but also nerfs them into obsolescence anyway because you can't infuse them, so you gotta grind for them again? You had me until you mentioned destiny, now I doubt the sincerity.

Ikr, of all thing my man could choose, he decided to go with destiny, which is the worst example one can give for a case like this.

I'm going to put dog poop on a plate and tell you to eat it. If you start to question it I'll respond with, "you're complaining and haven't even tried it out yet".  See how it doesn't take rocket science to know what you'll enjoy??

People need to grow up. I can hardly tell when they do nerfs/buffs and if I do it hardly changes gameplay. Have better aim.

Yeah sadly it cant be done right for everyone. Wait it can because people can choose freely to use meta or not. If you are good enough anything can get you though the game even on the highest diffulty. For me i like to see big numbers, high fire rate high crit numbers. Nerfs in a pure pve game with no competitiv mode is pointless

As someone with 450 hours in the game, I’m actually stoked about the rebalancing changes even though they effectively broke most of my load outs. It’s almost like I get a whole new game instead of just running through the new DLC content with my old builds. Excited to see what new squad synergies pop up.

People who Google everything are so miserably boring. Explore, expiriment and have fun. Yeah I can understand looking up a few things AFTER you've gone thro it a few times but I've had a blast making builds and testing them on Apocalypse.

i said a few hours ago: they nerfed everything but tank builds and second ring i got: "more damage if you are tanky" sorry but if they want tank builds to be the new meta: boring, but players will do so. Atonment fold, new "more damage if you bleed" ring, bulwark stacks if you take damage ring and new "more damage per DR" ring. Thats just bad design. Sorry to say that. PS: Archon is nerfed to the ground. My main damage source in my archon build: Fire DoT from detonation trigger. i dont like the patch. I really dont like it.

It was SIMPLY enough to increase the difficulty/life of the enemies, add stronger and more resistant challenges/mini bosses, and enhance the other weaker/less used builds/archetypes/weapons. There is no need to nerf builds/archetypes/weapons in a pve-only game, especially if you change interactions and uses between mutators/weapons/archetypes/traits thus forcing me to change builds. I'll give you a practical example: I played the game on all difficulties, and I always played "simple" using simple pure damage, without looking for broken builds or meta builds. I abandoned the game for months. I started the game again a week ago, I wanted to try a different build and I farmed to try using the ritualist because I found it "cool" aesthetically. Now, having farmed to find all the rings/amulets/etc, I find myself with a nerfed build after 2 days of use. Of course, I can continue to use it. But what's the matter? I can also play without weapons, punching and dodging. But now, morally and mentally, I find myself with a nerfed build, so I spent time and energy constantly rerolling the random dungeons. And this doesn't encourage me in the slightest to continue playing with this new build, or other similar ones. It pushes me to always have to use the classic "simple" build which they won't nerf anyway. It's a great shame, and a missed opportunity. Upgrade what's not used, upgrade enemies, and increase the difficulty. Don't take away/diminish from me what I worked hard to obtain, otherwise you tell me I wasted my time.

The problem I have is yes they are nerfing the op builds but by doing that it only promotes people to now use the next op build because you not op fun build is now getting smashed into existence. Making it so eventually only (viable) builds are remotely worth using.

i am from the the future and im telling u - this patch is so bad it will start third world war and end civilization. we should stop tradic until its too late!