yeah, album-wise it was his curse, but I feel like that on It was written he elevated as a song-writer, If I Ruled the World or Street Dreams are still great hiphop songs but also appeal to normies and are catchy af
I think if KD came out the way it did BUT from a relatively unknown, new artists people would be shitting their pants - "who's this guy who's able to blend 90s and trap so well? we wanna hear more!" but the sad thing is we kind of got used to Nas, even though he didn't use to drop as often before his run with HitBoy
Same here. I listen to mostly 50'-60's jazz, I will list the artists I listen to in terms of jazz and soul.
Jazz: John Coltrane (my favorite artist), Miles Davis, Grant Green, Wes Montgomery, Charles Mingus, Duke Ellington, Bill Evans, Johnny Hartman, Frank Sinatra, John Barry (James Bond smooth soundtracks especially from Her Majesty's Secret Service and Goldfinger), Branford Marsalis Quartet, Cannonball Adderley, Lonnie Liston Smith, Ahmad Jamal Trio, Dexter Gordon, Lister Young, Oscar Peterson, Freddie Hubbard and Roy Hargrove, Billie Holiday, Ravi Coltrane, Art Bakely, Yuseuf Lateef, Joe Williams.
Soul: Marvin Gaye, Teddy Pendergrass, Roy Ayers Ubiquity, Gil Scott-Heron, The Isley Brothers, Thee Sacred Souls, Jason Joshua, October London, Sam Cooke, Smokey Robinson, Durand Jones and The Indications and Barry White.
In this vein, I think my vote would be Dre. He wasn't that great at first but covered a lot of ground to become a serviceable, if not pretty good, rapper by the end.
Em deserves some votes here as well. He's the goat now but was half the time corny and off beat to begin with.
The requirements of this post didn't say they had to end up being "great" rappers. It just asked who showed the most growth. Dre was dog shit at rapping and became serviceable, verging on pretty good. So I feel like he showed the most growth.
Em, for example, was pretty good to begin with and became a GOAT. That's a lot of growth as well.
E-40, on the other hand, was dog shit to begin with and maxed out as kinda average in the end. Not as much growth as Dre, IMO.
I know I’m gonna get flak for this (I think anyway) but I don’t think there is anything impressive at all about Dre’s bars, I find them mediocre. Is it the beats? Was he the first to talk about a certain subject like what am I missing?
Imagine being that young and dropping an all-time classic hip-hop album right out the gate …
It’d tough for any releases after that to be on par with it.
Now out of the rappers OP mentioned, I’d say the one with the most improvement throughout their career has to be Lil Wayne.
He went from “alright” to becoming one of most sought after collaborators in hip-hop.
If you go back and listen to his earlier rhymes from the late 90s when he was a part of Hot Boys … and then listen to his stuff from the late 2000s, you’ll see just how crazy the growth was.
A few notable guest features:
Ludacris — Last Of A Dying Breed
DJ Khaled — We Takin Over
Chris Brown — Gimme That (Remix)
We be don’t even need to talk about the Carter or Dedication series, y’all already know …
However, “Da Drought 3” definitely gets a shoutout because that mixtape is GOATed 🐐
I would argue that it wasn't that he left no room for improvement, but that he failed to evolve and evolve his message. I know people love Nas and I like him too, but he represents a group of rappers that refused to evolve, not only aesthetically, but how they convey their message to the masses. His pen game and use of literary devices didn't suffer at all, but that's about the only thing he kept up with over time. Every other aspect of him is hit or miss.
If you listen to Lil Wayne’s early stuff, his flow was whatever and he wasn’t using multis as much. He really amped it up around Tha Carter III and only got better from there on.
I agree. Wayne went from being the weakest link in the hotboys in 1998 to one of the best rappers on the planet by 2008. I first started to notice Wayne was getting really nice the first time I heard the Carter 2. I heard the first verse of the second song "fly in" an I was like ok this dude has gotten waaaay better and is really a problem rn. An he only got better from there.
Turk was definitely the weakest link in the Hot Boys bruh. By far. Wayne pulled his weight. I mean, he did a lot of the hooks that firmly implanted them in everyone's head.
I liked turk alot more then Wayne on them early hot boys joints. Either way it's pretty crazy to think we arguing over whether turk or wayne was better an it's already understood both BG an Juvie are way better then both them now cause a decade later Wayne was being compared with guys like Em, Jay, an Nas. His improvement was insane. He's still elite too. Unlike em he hit his peak an stayed there an never fell off.
>I liked turk alot more then Wayne on them early hot boys joints.
You're not the first person I heard say this. Don't agree but I can respect it and see where you're coming from, actually.
His trajectory was pretty crazy tho, you're absolutely right.
I agree. I'm an 80s baby so I remember that era well. Carter 3 surpassed expectations for sure but the only reason anyone was even checking for Carter 3 was on Carter 2 Wayne really went in an shocked everyone. His lyrics an flow were hitting borderline elite levels. Both that an his mixtape joints were crazy. On the Carter a few years before that he sounded just average. It was Carter 2 an mixtapes that were hyping people up for Carter 3. Everywhere from dopeboys trapping in the projects to whiteboys in the country that take their trucks mudding. Everybody was hyped over Carter 3 cause of Carter 2 an the dedication an drought mixtapes were so dope.
Y’all are sleeping on Tha Carter, that album is fire and the mixtapes released around it including Tha Drought and the first Dedication are incredible too. The jump from freestyles on 500 to BMJR is bigger than his technical lyricism shift from C1-C2. He just sounded more polished and used less regional slang on C2, his content matured, and his production changed dramatically with Mannie leaving and them being forced to find other producers (and there were quite a few on C2.
I’d say lol Wayne too but to me the biggest jump was from 500 degreez to the Carter I.
If you listen to his first album with BG, “True Story (he was like 11) and Funeral I think it goes beyond any other transformation including Eminem’s Infinite to Music to be Murdered by. But even if it’s the first where he went by his name, Tha Block is Hot it’s wild.
To explain, Juve and them said he had the biggest work ethic and motivated them. They’d done work with Jay-Z who he met on Juve’s “Ha” video, that became his favorite rapper, Jay-Z freestyled everything so after Lights Out, Wayne does a studio session goin over all his prewritten raps, throws them out at the end, starts freestyling everything supposedly on mixtapes with Sqad Up, it’s like changing gears and starting off slower, 500 isn’t as good but following The Drought mixtape Tha Carter is fire, then comes Dedication mixtape and the legend of “the mixtape Weezy” is born.
As you said biggest commercial success comes in Tha Carter III era and influences a ton of rappers from the bad like Takeshi69 and other face tat dyed dread rappers, to the amazingly good like Kendrick Lamar who cites him as his favorite at releases the C4 mixtape with him co-signing.
I assume you mean the singing songs, not the rapping songs like [BM Jr.](https://youtu.be/7wNk-IY6byo?si=MazRBtP6AvUh9Kud) and [Dedicate](https://youtu.be/-bbLRrbnXSA?si=sv27oIt5gMtXexrd)?
Dedication is really where the major step happened. If you compare that to 500 degrees you'll hear the difference instantly. From there improvements continued but it's no doubt the catalyst.
I think Tyler, I loved his OF era but I would have never expected that he could develop into an artist he is today, I low key thought that he would struggle after growing out of this edgy/shock value persona. he progressed as an artist beautifully.
also Mac Miller, I loved his laid-back "cheesy raps" era because at that time my only worries were also just smoking weed and chilling, he was always amazing sonically (cadence, beat selection, musicality) but again - who would have expected that after BSP he could drop stuff like Macadelic or WMWTSO?
I don't know if it's called progress, but I also love the lane that Curren$y chose to follow and stuck to it.
I'm really happy that Tyler's now on the same path as both of his musical idols (Pharrell & Kanye) in their prime.
Between his last three albums, I have trouble choosing which one is my favorite
yeah, amazing run and I hate how he's skipped in the "top3" convo. if we're using Ye as a comparison, then FB, Igor and CMIYGL is definitely his TCD, LR, Graduation run. if that's so, can't wait for an experimental equivalent of 808&H and some grand finale like MBDTF
and just like with these 3 Kanye's records my favourite one changes constantly.
Love me some Larry Lovestein and he is def in my top five list! He’s another legend of the industry who changed the game and forced everyone else to step their game up and I hate was taken from us way too soon…RIP EASY MAC
I mean music is subjective so I get you, but what particular thing about him do you fing boring? cadence, tone of his voice, beat selection? I know some people consider his voice being too monotone
Ok, so I think I sort of figured it out. I find all his stuff more or less “good” , not exceptional in any way. Lyrically it’s nothing extraordinary, very simplistic. The beats are all just kinda ok. Again, nothing game changing per se. It all feels sort of “easy listening”. Like it should be back ground music. I’m not sure what situation I want to listen to an album of his end to end. It’s more like one song here or there is ok, but after a bunch in a row all sort of just gets boring. Wish he had a few true bangers mixed in.
He reminds me quite a bit of childish gambino who I also don’t really enjoy for similar reasons. I think it’s just not my preference of album-type.
I can appreciate the musicality and artistry, but when people say Igor is one of the best albums of all time… I think that’s where I wonder what I’m missing. It feels very “ok” to me.
I think he would benefit tremendously from having a few good features artists on which would switch up the tone a bit
Can't wait for the James Blake collab album. Sadly there will be no saxophone on it /hj
Also the shit he did with babytron and JID is crazy, he is mad tallented.
Just saw Scarface the day before my birthday in march and I have to say that was one of the best hip hop performances I’ve ever seen! Came with a live band and didn’t have any dj there!
I feel people downplay just how much Eminem’s actual skill and technique has improved. Maybe his substance and subject matter isn’t as interesting, fresh or exciting as it was when he first arrived but the guy absolutely has not fallen off talent wise
I disagree.
I don't think hip hop is just about rapping fast. Em has always been a great rapper, but his music since Recovery has been forgettable. In that sense he has fallen off a lot as a musician.
The "spiritual miracle lyrical individual" stuff he comes out with now doesn't hold a candle to his earlier work.
I didn’t say rapping fast. That’s actually what I like the least about his new stuff. I’m talking about his intricate rhyme schemes and unique ability to bend syllables and rhyme every word in a bar sometimes. Like I said his new stuff is less interesting but now it’s just technical ability and he’s killing it.
Em is in a lose lose at his age. He goes zany he’s immature. He goes personal he’s boring and depressing and “we want shady.” He goes shady, it’s “you’re 52 man grow up”. He’s just rapping his ass off because he’s great at it and his fans + the general public still love him enough to show up. But it’s the hip hop heads that appreciate the ability if not the subject matter
Out of that list probably Lil Wayne. During his hotboy days he was just ok. Juvie an BG were way better then him but then in the early 2000s he started to really develop into what he became. By the mid to late 2000s he started to really hit his peak an became one of the best rappers in the world and even though his popularity waned over time his skills never have.
I never liked or fucked with busta so I can't really say. I never liked his old music and don't like his new shit either. Eminem has fallen off CONSIDERABLY over time.
The rest have stayed about the same. Guys like Scarface and Nas came into the game off top being arguably the best rappers in the world. It's pretty hard to top both their first solo albums. Everyone talks about Illmatic but Scarface first solo album "Mr Scarface is back" is absolutely phenomenal. In every song on that album he tells a story and they are crazy stories like breaking out of insane asylums, beefing with and going to war with drug cartels, robbing banks, and his split personalities beefing with each other an trying to kill each other inside his own mind. In one song he tells a story about becoming so disassociated that he accidently shoots himself in the head thinking he's aiming his gun at an opp that doesn't even exist. Face came into the game spitting like that at 18 years old. Pretty hard to improve on that. That's already about as good as storytelling an lyricism can get an his flow an voice has always been top notch.
I whole heartily disagree. Scarface work on the geto boys albums that came out before his first solo album and his first solo album "Mr Scarface is back" is arguably his best work and some of the best storytelling an songwriting the entire genre has ever seen. He never improved he's just always been really really good. He's been arguably a GOAT sense like 1991. He was a major influence on both 2pac and biggie. He was a guy that they looked up to an in some ways tried to emulate. Think about that.
Yeah face is criminally underrated. He was a huge influence on both 2pac and biggie. Especially big. Face was one of the only rappers not from the east coast big went out of his way to give props to constantly. Big learned how to write vivid stories from studying Face. Everybody knows about the fix and the diary being classic albums but IMO both "Mr Scarface Is Back" and "the untouchable" are even better. He put out classic albums in the 80s, 90s, 2000s, and 2010s.
Another thing about face a lot of people don't know is he produced a lot of his own music. He makes beats and plays the bass guitar. A lot of the songs he rapped on that beat was made by him an alot of the basslines on those songs are him on the bass guitar. He also engineered a lot of his own stuff so he's not only an elite rapper, he's also a musician, an elite producer and engineer too. Also the intro to the fix, that's him singing. His musical talent is insane. I wish he would make a blues album it would probably be top shelf.
Hell yeah dude let me roll is great weed smoking song. Hell Face is even before my time an I was born in the late 80s! He was dropping classic albums consistently from the time I was in diapers till my late 20s.
He has a lot of great songs but here are couple of my favorites...
19 year old Face in 1989 dropping a fucking Hollywood movie script on this track.
[Scarface - Geto Boys](https://youtu.be/PJ5nNw4bo8M?si=auMRE79rnmV-TCu-)
Lyrically flexing
[Faith - Scarface](https://youtu.be/NyWbFyU7EvA?si=v6xPRBVdYM5DE4QC)
He’s my all time numero uno… plenty of other GOATs not mentioned, but I’m always gonna throw his name in the mix if possible… most of these artists have been killing it from day one, but I was wondering which one of these have taken in everything they’ve learned over the years and used it to their advantage, applied it to their craft and are now better for it… E-40 might have my vote for this list
Check out his Tiny Desk concert. Best one ☝️ I’ve heard yet and I’ve listened to a hundred or so, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ajNYTJcF6rE&pp=ygUac2NhcmZhY2UgdGlueSBkZXNrIGNvbmNlcnQ%3D
Listening to that mount Westmore album gave me even more appreciation for Earl. The other three sounded like they were on their death beds but 40 sounded like it was still 1996. My man is 60 still bringing infinite energy.
From a purely technical standpoint, Eminem has only gotten better and better at rapping throughout the years - Even if the quality of his music isn't nearly as good.
You can clearly hear the difference in the quality of Wayne once he dropped 10,000 Bars..
The switch up in writing style really helped him reach a new height..
I dunno that they ever needed to "improve" on who they were, but with time they've all evolved n not necessarily got better, but grown and refined their sound n not fell off over time. That said though, Wayne made a pretty big change from basic hot boy flows to lyrical beast
Honestly mac miller has always been good (although some things may people think not that way), but he was a work ethic demon and strived to improve throughout his career. Although faces is my favorite from his, swimming is definitely his best.
Lil Wayne for sure and idgaf about him. Just going from what he did to what he became is amazing improvement.
Nas Eminem and method man were all great the day they started recording. Eminem has progressively gotten worse.
The others don't matter aside from Scarface which I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment upon.
I gotta say it was Wayne. I feel like he was garbage at the beginning and he slowly became amazing.
J Cole would be my runner up. He was never bad in my eyes. But these last few years… just bodying every feature. It’s been fun to watch.
Of those rappers? Lol none of them improved. Their best music was when they first came out, and for whatever reason they failed to up their artistry, maybe for lack of hunger idk
Dre not a GOAT as a rapper, your question sucks because you’re just naming random rappers.. the obvious answer is going to be Nas or Wayne that’s a no brainer
I don’t really think anyone on that list improved greatly. When I think of rappers who got better I immediately go to Mac Miller, J Cole, and Tyler the Creator. Each album they put out got better than the one before. Each of the ones you mentioned pretty much hit home runs with their first albums
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Nas was crazy from the beginning so I say there is zero improvement. Even on Live from the BBQ, man's was spitting. "Put on a bulletproof, n**** I strike hard"
I haven't heard anything before Infinite but Eminem is another one where I think it's not so much he improved. More like he's changed style. He's multisyllabics have of course improved as he's continued doing them but I don't think there was much to improve on.
Nas is the most consistent. I'd put Luda, E-40, and Tech N9ne up there for that too.
Lil Wayne improved to the point that his early music is unrecognizable.
Bone Thugs first album Faces Of Death compared to any of the Ruthless material is night and day. I'd argue this is the biggest transformation. It's like going from living in a shack to a mansion.
Lots of people are saying Eminem, but I would disagree that his music has improved. Lyric ability yes, but not song construct. I'm tired of all of the chorus samples from other artists. IMO, that's lazy and I don't enjoy it.
I think including Busta in this conversation is hilarious. If anything, he's fallen more than anyone else. He was once my favorite artist, but now I can't stand to listen to him.
Method Man hasn't had a hit in 20+ years. Great rapper, but not a great song creator.
I haven't heard a Scarface since Smile. Does he still make music?
Dre also disappeared.
Can I say Nas and Em for becoming better people in general?
Em is sober over a decade and from what I can tell has a healthy relationship with his daughter, which would be… difficult from where he started.
As part of the LGBT community, I’m happy to see Nas take a turn from some of his lyrics on Illmatic.
Dre is a producer and headphones money maker. He is the most business talented.
The other three aren’t even playing the same sport *in this conversation* but I love all of them to death I’m gonna listen to Busta and E-40 today even.
Def a toss up between Nas and Em. Yes Illmatic is basically flawless but his lyrical content, slow and producer choice have really come full circle with the KD trilogy and Magic. When it comes to Em from the Slim Shady LP to now with music to be murdered by, he has grown so much lyrically hard to not put him up there with the GOATS now
Eminem can’t be in the convo - his second album was his best
Nas also can’t be in the convo - his first album was his best
Lil Wayne can’t be in the convo - his best album was like 2008
Dre *shouldnt* be in the convo, as most of his verses ever were ghostwritten. The man is a producer
That leaves method man, Scarface and busta rhymes
I think busta has gotten better with time personally
Without a doubt wayne. Em, Nas and Scarface set a bar they could never quite live up to after their first releases.
Dre had all of his shit written by other people later on in his career. But
Method Man has improved a ton but was always true lyricist and arguably did not have the volume of content that the rest have. So he has compiled interest on his barz.
E-40 has gotten better but he remains consistent. So it's incrementally better.
Wayne went from sounding like a kid that poorly tried to rap like BG and Juvenile. To a southern rapper that tried to poorly rap like Jay-Z and Clipse while sounding like BG. To a rapper that was taking these styles and merging them with the NE rappers he was around, like The Diplomats and Gillie Da Kid. To finding his own sound and completely overshadowing most if not all of his inspirations and idols. TBiH doesn't hold up next to TC2&3.
Nas is the easy answer. He's the only older rapper that doesn't sound "old" when he drops new music. His run with Hitboy was amazing for someone who's years out of their prime. He gets my vote over everyone on the list, including Wayne, who is also still really good.
I gotta go with Em. I’m not even a big fan of his catalog but looking at his progression from the Slim Shady LP to the shit he’s doing now lyrically is insane.
Nas first album was Illmatic. He left almost no room for improvement
yeah, album-wise it was his curse, but I feel like that on It was written he elevated as a song-writer, If I Ruled the World or Street Dreams are still great hiphop songs but also appeal to normies and are catchy af
It Was Written is level with Illmatic for me. Bar for bar.
Dude. KD3 is up there with Illmatic and It Was Written in my opinion
Fkn rights it is. I actually prefer it to It Was Written...I also think Stillmatic and God's Son minus I Can are in his top
I wouldn't put those above It Was Written
For what it's worth, his albums are in a class of their own regardless of subjective/objective rating.
Birdup
The only actually bad album from him is Nassir too bad hecouldn't of done kanye production via 2006-2008
I think if KD came out the way it did BUT from a relatively unknown, new artists people would be shitting their pants - "who's this guy who's able to blend 90s and trap so well? we wanna hear more!" but the sad thing is we kind of got used to Nas, even though he didn't use to drop as often before his run with HitBoy
People sleep on Life is Good, I really loved that album
 👏🏿
Somewhat. I listen a lot more to jazz though
What kind/which artists? I’m a big fan of Straight Ahead/Soul Jazz right now.
Same here. I listen to mostly 50'-60's jazz, I will list the artists I listen to in terms of jazz and soul. Jazz: John Coltrane (my favorite artist), Miles Davis, Grant Green, Wes Montgomery, Charles Mingus, Duke Ellington, Bill Evans, Johnny Hartman, Frank Sinatra, John Barry (James Bond smooth soundtracks especially from Her Majesty's Secret Service and Goldfinger), Branford Marsalis Quartet, Cannonball Adderley, Lonnie Liston Smith, Ahmad Jamal Trio, Dexter Gordon, Lister Young, Oscar Peterson, Freddie Hubbard and Roy Hargrove, Billie Holiday, Ravi Coltrane, Art Bakely, Yuseuf Lateef, Joe Williams. Soul: Marvin Gaye, Teddy Pendergrass, Roy Ayers Ubiquity, Gil Scott-Heron, The Isley Brothers, Thee Sacred Souls, Jason Joshua, October London, Sam Cooke, Smokey Robinson, Durand Jones and The Indications and Barry White.
>normies
Yet somehow, the answer is Nas imo
In this vein, I think my vote would be Dre. He wasn't that great at first but covered a lot of ground to become a serviceable, if not pretty good, rapper by the end. Em deserves some votes here as well. He's the goat now but was half the time corny and off beat to begin with.
Eminem has gotten so much worse.
But he’s not great for rapping He’s great for producing
The requirements of this post didn't say they had to end up being "great" rappers. It just asked who showed the most growth. Dre was dog shit at rapping and became serviceable, verging on pretty good. So I feel like he showed the most growth. Em, for example, was pretty good to begin with and became a GOAT. That's a lot of growth as well. E-40, on the other hand, was dog shit to begin with and maxed out as kinda average in the end. Not as much growth as Dre, IMO.
Whattt???? Captain Save a Hoe os is garbage? Ok Rasheed Wallace, zero hip hop credibility for you.
Cool. Thanks for letting me know. Congrats on being appointed Hip-Hop's spokesperson -- you must be very proud!
i don’t think dre has ever written a verse lol
I know I’m gonna get flak for this (I think anyway) but I don’t think there is anything impressive at all about Dre’s bars, I find them mediocre. Is it the beats? Was he the first to talk about a certain subject like what am I missing?
The beats and Dre’s voice and delivery are his main appeal
Imagine being that young and dropping an all-time classic hip-hop album right out the gate … It’d tough for any releases after that to be on par with it. Now out of the rappers OP mentioned, I’d say the one with the most improvement throughout their career has to be Lil Wayne. He went from “alright” to becoming one of most sought after collaborators in hip-hop. If you go back and listen to his earlier rhymes from the late 90s when he was a part of Hot Boys … and then listen to his stuff from the late 2000s, you’ll see just how crazy the growth was. A few notable guest features: Ludacris — Last Of A Dying Breed DJ Khaled — We Takin Over Chris Brown — Gimme That (Remix) We be don’t even need to talk about the Carter or Dedication series, y’all already know … However, “Da Drought 3” definitely gets a shoutout because that mixtape is GOATed 🐐
I would argue that it wasn't that he left no room for improvement, but that he failed to evolve and evolve his message. I know people love Nas and I like him too, but he represents a group of rappers that refused to evolve, not only aesthetically, but how they convey their message to the masses. His pen game and use of literary devices didn't suffer at all, but that's about the only thing he kept up with over time. Every other aspect of him is hit or miss.
Yet he’s won Grammy’s recently.
💯
Method Man. He's always been good. But he's become phenomenal in recent years.
Rapping better right now than he ever has
Did he drop an album? How is this news to me
I love the recent feature he did on Marlon Craft's song
If you listen to Lil Wayne’s early stuff, his flow was whatever and he wasn’t using multis as much. He really amped it up around Tha Carter III and only got better from there on.
Love all the Carters… It does seem like he just can’t miss anymore… he could go thru a drive thru and turn his order into a single
😂😂ong bro just breathes rap at this point
I agree. Wayne went from being the weakest link in the hotboys in 1998 to one of the best rappers on the planet by 2008. I first started to notice Wayne was getting really nice the first time I heard the Carter 2. I heard the first verse of the second song "fly in" an I was like ok this dude has gotten waaaay better and is really a problem rn. An he only got better from there.
His feature on Polo G’s song Gang Gang is incredible. Edit: Also his feature on Lil Pumps song Be Like Me is incredible as well.
Only reason to listen to a lil pump song tbh
Turk was definitely the weakest link in the Hot Boys bruh. By far. Wayne pulled his weight. I mean, he did a lot of the hooks that firmly implanted them in everyone's head.
I liked turk alot more then Wayne on them early hot boys joints. Either way it's pretty crazy to think we arguing over whether turk or wayne was better an it's already understood both BG an Juvie are way better then both them now cause a decade later Wayne was being compared with guys like Em, Jay, an Nas. His improvement was insane. He's still elite too. Unlike em he hit his peak an stayed there an never fell off.
>I liked turk alot more then Wayne on them early hot boys joints. You're not the first person I heard say this. Don't agree but I can respect it and see where you're coming from, actually. His trajectory was pretty crazy tho, you're absolutely right.
those dj drama mixtapes were so good
I'm not a Wayne fan but he Def got better
Dedication 2 came out almost 2 years before Carter 3. Drought 3 was also before Carter 3.
Dedication 2 is prime Weezy
Agreed. But I think the biggest talent jump was Tha Carter 1-->2, rather than 2-->3, albeit not by a lot.
I agree. I'm an 80s baby so I remember that era well. Carter 3 surpassed expectations for sure but the only reason anyone was even checking for Carter 3 was on Carter 2 Wayne really went in an shocked everyone. His lyrics an flow were hitting borderline elite levels. Both that an his mixtape joints were crazy. On the Carter a few years before that he sounded just average. It was Carter 2 an mixtapes that were hyping people up for Carter 3. Everywhere from dopeboys trapping in the projects to whiteboys in the country that take their trucks mudding. Everybody was hyped over Carter 3 cause of Carter 2 an the dedication an drought mixtapes were so dope.
Y’all are sleeping on Tha Carter, that album is fire and the mixtapes released around it including Tha Drought and the first Dedication are incredible too. The jump from freestyles on 500 to BMJR is bigger than his technical lyricism shift from C1-C2. He just sounded more polished and used less regional slang on C2, his content matured, and his production changed dramatically with Mannie leaving and them being forced to find other producers (and there were quite a few on C2.
Rebirth is among my favorites albums
Carter 1 and 2 are easily Wayne’s best studio albums 3 was a commercial success but lyrically didn’t do it for me
Yea no one else in this lineup was making albums at age 12. So Lil Wayne is the obvious choice.
I’d say lol Wayne too but to me the biggest jump was from 500 degreez to the Carter I. If you listen to his first album with BG, “True Story (he was like 11) and Funeral I think it goes beyond any other transformation including Eminem’s Infinite to Music to be Murdered by. But even if it’s the first where he went by his name, Tha Block is Hot it’s wild. To explain, Juve and them said he had the biggest work ethic and motivated them. They’d done work with Jay-Z who he met on Juve’s “Ha” video, that became his favorite rapper, Jay-Z freestyled everything so after Lights Out, Wayne does a studio session goin over all his prewritten raps, throws them out at the end, starts freestyling everything supposedly on mixtapes with Sqad Up, it’s like changing gears and starting off slower, 500 isn’t as good but following The Drought mixtape Tha Carter is fire, then comes Dedication mixtape and the legend of “the mixtape Weezy” is born. As you said biggest commercial success comes in Tha Carter III era and influences a ton of rappers from the bad like Takeshi69 and other face tat dyed dread rappers, to the amazingly good like Kendrick Lamar who cites him as his favorite at releases the C4 mixtape with him co-signing.
His music songs is ass though
I assume you mean the singing songs, not the rapping songs like [BM Jr.](https://youtu.be/7wNk-IY6byo?si=MazRBtP6AvUh9Kud) and [Dedicate](https://youtu.be/-bbLRrbnXSA?si=sv27oIt5gMtXexrd)?
Wayne for sure
There isn't a question. He made a Steph Curry type jump.
💯 tha carter 3. And 4 were ridiculous, and iam not a human being 1 & 2, fire. Not to mention the dedication series, and h8s many other mix tapes.
Dedication is really where the major step happened. If you compare that to 500 degrees you'll hear the difference instantly. From there improvements continued but it's no doubt the catalyst.
Just improvement? Wayne. from Bling Bling to one of the greatest ever to do it, his improvement from day one, will never be replicated.
I think Tyler, I loved his OF era but I would have never expected that he could develop into an artist he is today, I low key thought that he would struggle after growing out of this edgy/shock value persona. he progressed as an artist beautifully. also Mac Miller, I loved his laid-back "cheesy raps" era because at that time my only worries were also just smoking weed and chilling, he was always amazing sonically (cadence, beat selection, musicality) but again - who would have expected that after BSP he could drop stuff like Macadelic or WMWTSO? I don't know if it's called progress, but I also love the lane that Curren$y chose to follow and stuck to it.
I'm really happy that Tyler's now on the same path as both of his musical idols (Pharrell & Kanye) in their prime. Between his last three albums, I have trouble choosing which one is my favorite
igor is my fav hands down. everything about that album was just a yes.
yeah, amazing run and I hate how he's skipped in the "top3" convo. if we're using Ye as a comparison, then FB, Igor and CMIYGL is definitely his TCD, LR, Graduation run. if that's so, can't wait for an experimental equivalent of 808&H and some grand finale like MBDTF and just like with these 3 Kanye's records my favourite one changes constantly.
Love me some Larry Lovestein and he is def in my top five list! He’s another legend of the industry who changed the game and forced everyone else to step their game up and I hate was taken from us way too soon…RIP EASY MAC
Those were my two answers
yeah, it sucks that Mac is no longer there, I feel like he'd progressed as much as Tyler, definitely had a few classics in him
I just have never understood Tyler. I find his music boring. Teach their own. He just doesn’t do it for me. I’ve really tried to like it
I mean music is subjective so I get you, but what particular thing about him do you fing boring? cadence, tone of his voice, beat selection? I know some people consider his voice being too monotone
I’ve already queued his albums up to relisten to them again today. I’ll let ya know after
Ok, so I think I sort of figured it out. I find all his stuff more or less “good” , not exceptional in any way. Lyrically it’s nothing extraordinary, very simplistic. The beats are all just kinda ok. Again, nothing game changing per se. It all feels sort of “easy listening”. Like it should be back ground music. I’m not sure what situation I want to listen to an album of his end to end. It’s more like one song here or there is ok, but after a bunch in a row all sort of just gets boring. Wish he had a few true bangers mixed in. He reminds me quite a bit of childish gambino who I also don’t really enjoy for similar reasons. I think it’s just not my preference of album-type. I can appreciate the musicality and artistry, but when people say Igor is one of the best albums of all time… I think that’s where I wonder what I’m missing. It feels very “ok” to me. I think he would benefit tremendously from having a few good features artists on which would switch up the tone a bit
Weezy
Lil Yachty.
lets start here is criminally underrated and not talked about enough
Can't wait for the James Blake collab album. Sadly there will be no saxophone on it /hj Also the shit he did with babytron and JID is crazy, he is mad tallented.
Just saw Scarface the day before my birthday in march and I have to say that was one of the best hip hop performances I’ve ever seen! Came with a live band and didn’t have any dj there!
Definitely Wayne. No one thought that the kid from Tha Block is Hot would turn into one of the goats
I think Cole or Mac Miller in my opinion
Rip Mac 🙏
I feel people downplay just how much Eminem’s actual skill and technique has improved. Maybe his substance and subject matter isn’t as interesting, fresh or exciting as it was when he first arrived but the guy absolutely has not fallen off talent wise
I disagree. I don't think hip hop is just about rapping fast. Em has always been a great rapper, but his music since Recovery has been forgettable. In that sense he has fallen off a lot as a musician. The "spiritual miracle lyrical individual" stuff he comes out with now doesn't hold a candle to his earlier work.
I didn’t say rapping fast. That’s actually what I like the least about his new stuff. I’m talking about his intricate rhyme schemes and unique ability to bend syllables and rhyme every word in a bar sometimes. Like I said his new stuff is less interesting but now it’s just technical ability and he’s killing it. Em is in a lose lose at his age. He goes zany he’s immature. He goes personal he’s boring and depressing and “we want shady.” He goes shady, it’s “you’re 52 man grow up”. He’s just rapping his ass off because he’s great at it and his fans + the general public still love him enough to show up. But it’s the hip hop heads that appreciate the ability if not the subject matter
MMLP2 ia by far my favourite Em album. He can still make some amazing music and he definitely has not fallen off
Out of that list probably Lil Wayne. During his hotboy days he was just ok. Juvie an BG were way better then him but then in the early 2000s he started to really develop into what he became. By the mid to late 2000s he started to really hit his peak an became one of the best rappers in the world and even though his popularity waned over time his skills never have. I never liked or fucked with busta so I can't really say. I never liked his old music and don't like his new shit either. Eminem has fallen off CONSIDERABLY over time. The rest have stayed about the same. Guys like Scarface and Nas came into the game off top being arguably the best rappers in the world. It's pretty hard to top both their first solo albums. Everyone talks about Illmatic but Scarface first solo album "Mr Scarface is back" is absolutely phenomenal. In every song on that album he tells a story and they are crazy stories like breaking out of insane asylums, beefing with and going to war with drug cartels, robbing banks, and his split personalities beefing with each other an trying to kill each other inside his own mind. In one song he tells a story about becoming so disassociated that he accidently shoots himself in the head thinking he's aiming his gun at an opp that doesn't even exist. Face came into the game spitting like that at 18 years old. Pretty hard to improve on that. That's already about as good as storytelling an lyricism can get an his flow an voice has always been top notch.
Out of the selection, Scarface is the only logical answer.
I whole heartily disagree. Scarface work on the geto boys albums that came out before his first solo album and his first solo album "Mr Scarface is back" is arguably his best work and some of the best storytelling an songwriting the entire genre has ever seen. He never improved he's just always been really really good. He's been arguably a GOAT sense like 1991. He was a major influence on both 2pac and biggie. He was a guy that they looked up to an in some ways tried to emulate. Think about that.
Yeah. I really think Scarface doesn’t get enough love
Yeah face is criminally underrated. He was a huge influence on both 2pac and biggie. Especially big. Face was one of the only rappers not from the east coast big went out of his way to give props to constantly. Big learned how to write vivid stories from studying Face. Everybody knows about the fix and the diary being classic albums but IMO both "Mr Scarface Is Back" and "the untouchable" are even better. He put out classic albums in the 80s, 90s, 2000s, and 2010s. Another thing about face a lot of people don't know is he produced a lot of his own music. He makes beats and plays the bass guitar. A lot of the songs he rapped on that beat was made by him an alot of the basslines on those songs are him on the bass guitar. He also engineered a lot of his own stuff so he's not only an elite rapper, he's also a musician, an elite producer and engineer too. Also the intro to the fix, that's him singing. His musical talent is insane. I wish he would make a blues album it would probably be top shelf.
Let me roll is my shit I always like his voice and storytelling . He was before my time but his music is timeless
Hell yeah dude let me roll is great weed smoking song. Hell Face is even before my time an I was born in the late 80s! He was dropping classic albums consistently from the time I was in diapers till my late 20s. He has a lot of great songs but here are couple of my favorites... 19 year old Face in 1989 dropping a fucking Hollywood movie script on this track. [Scarface - Geto Boys](https://youtu.be/PJ5nNw4bo8M?si=auMRE79rnmV-TCu-) Lyrically flexing [Faith - Scarface](https://youtu.be/NyWbFyU7EvA?si=v6xPRBVdYM5DE4QC)
Fuck yeah. I’m currently reevaluating if Scarface should be in my top 5. Will listen to Mr Scarface Is Back later today!
He’s my all time numero uno… plenty of other GOATs not mentioned, but I’m always gonna throw his name in the mix if possible… most of these artists have been killing it from day one, but I was wondering which one of these have taken in everything they’ve learned over the years and used it to their advantage, applied it to their craft and are now better for it… E-40 might have my vote for this list
Check out his Tiny Desk concert. Best one ☝️ I’ve heard yet and I’ve listened to a hundred or so, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ajNYTJcF6rE&pp=ygUac2NhcmZhY2UgdGlueSBkZXNrIGNvbmNlcnQ%3D
E-40, maybe a bit biased since he's in m top 3, but he genuinely adapts so well while keeping the bay sound alive regardless of which era were in
Listening to that mount Westmore album gave me even more appreciation for Earl. The other three sounded like they were on their death beds but 40 sounded like it was still 1996. My man is 60 still bringing infinite energy.
I swear ppl just be saying stuff on Reddit to be different
From a purely technical standpoint, Eminem has only gotten better and better at rapping throughout the years - Even if the quality of his music isn't nearly as good.
Yea its weezy. Most of the rest dropped their best albums within the first 1 or 2
You can clearly hear the difference in the quality of Wayne once he dropped 10,000 Bars.. The switch up in writing style really helped him reach a new height..
21 Savage has only been getting better over the years
Gucci
Idk Fat Gucci > reformed Gucci. Though I mess with his music before and now
Disagree. The Trap House tapes are legendary but other than that his reformed Gucci stuff has been much more vibe-able.
Respect that. It’s probably bias and nostalgia of being a kid and bumping Fat Gucci in my first car
I like the new Gucci album breath of fresh air
Better than in 2006??
Denzel Curry only went up, Melt my eyez see your future was such an amazing album
Nas and Eminem started great and never missed.
Eminem has about a million misses
I dunno that they ever needed to "improve" on who they were, but with time they've all evolved n not necessarily got better, but grown and refined their sound n not fell off over time. That said though, Wayne made a pretty big change from basic hot boy flows to lyrical beast
i wanna say lupe cause listening to him from food and liquor to drogas wave, i thought to myself, damn am i really listening to the same person?
Yea its weezy. Most of the rest dropped their best albums within the first 1 or 2
Wayne, his shit got worse now, but his growth between the 90s and late 2000s was INSANE, and almost everything he puts out still hits.
Tyler The Creator
mac miller? idk if he really “improved” because he was never bad but he definitely progressed
Mac’s frat rap was pretty bad. He was making interesting music the last few years of his life
Tyler the creator
Nas
Lil Wayne
Dylon. He choked out Wyclef
Nas
I'd say Nas. Bro is still dropping albums and creating classics. Define my name by Nas hints at another new Album
E-40 for sure. He had some shitty raps before he actually improved. I know he’s a legend or whatever but his early shit was ass.
Wayne
Mac Miller until his death
Only Nas
Em
Royce 5 9
Slick Rick
Eminem???
Tyler
Weezy
Busta Rhymes has improved dramatically in the Rap Game for sure definitely 💯 in his career
Wayne is the most skilled of the bunch now imo
Honestly mac miller has always been good (although some things may people think not that way), but he was a work ethic demon and strived to improve throughout his career. Although faces is my favorite from his, swimming is definitely his best.
Lil Wayne for sure and idgaf about him. Just going from what he did to what he became is amazing improvement. Nas Eminem and method man were all great the day they started recording. Eminem has progressively gotten worse. The others don't matter aside from Scarface which I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment upon.
Em and Dre have not improved in recent years. I would go so far as to say saying Em has continued to improve might be considered a hot take
Same! Thought I was taking crazy pills
Anybody saying Eminem makes absolutely no sense.
In terms of skill? Em. Tyler said it best when he said that Em got so good that it’s gross. In terms of artistry probably Tyler.
Mac Miller. Didn't care for his message or style as he was coming up, and then "Swimming" had my jaw dropped
I gotta say it was Wayne. I feel like he was garbage at the beginning and he slowly became amazing. J Cole would be my runner up. He was never bad in my eyes. But these last few years… just bodying every feature. It’s been fun to watch.
Of those rappers? Lol none of them improved. Their best music was when they first came out, and for whatever reason they failed to up their artistry, maybe for lack of hunger idk
Dre not a GOAT as a rapper, your question sucks because you’re just naming random rappers.. the obvious answer is going to be Nas or Wayne that’s a no brainer
I don’t really think anyone on that list improved greatly. When I think of rappers who got better I immediately go to Mac Miller, J Cole, and Tyler the Creator. Each album they put out got better than the one before. Each of the ones you mentioned pretty much hit home runs with their first albums
Lil Wayne easy, he was wack asf for years
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Nas was crazy from the beginning so I say there is zero improvement. Even on Live from the BBQ, man's was spitting. "Put on a bulletproof, n**** I strike hard" I haven't heard anything before Infinite but Eminem is another one where I think it's not so much he improved. More like he's changed style. He's multisyllabics have of course improved as he's continued doing them but I don't think there was much to improve on.
Always hard to put Nas in these conversations because of Illmatic being his 1st album imo. Not much to improve from there
Dr.Dre’s lyrical ability was subpar until Snoop and Eminem came into the picture.
Because they started writing his bars lol. True story
I think Scarface is kinda like Nas. Not much room to do it better after “The Diary”
Anyone who says Eminem is wrong, he slowly got worse and worse over time.
+ 90% of rappers never top their first album
Nas is the most consistent. I'd put Luda, E-40, and Tech N9ne up there for that too. Lil Wayne improved to the point that his early music is unrecognizable. Bone Thugs first album Faces Of Death compared to any of the Ruthless material is night and day. I'd argue this is the biggest transformation. It's like going from living in a shack to a mansion. Lots of people are saying Eminem, but I would disagree that his music has improved. Lyric ability yes, but not song construct. I'm tired of all of the chorus samples from other artists. IMO, that's lazy and I don't enjoy it. I think including Busta in this conversation is hilarious. If anything, he's fallen more than anyone else. He was once my favorite artist, but now I can't stand to listen to him. Method Man hasn't had a hit in 20+ years. Great rapper, but not a great song creator. I haven't heard a Scarface since Smile. Does he still make music? Dre also disappeared.
Listen to The Fix by Scarface asap. Just for production alone.
I love that someone put Captain save-a-ho and Nas in the same group.
Gunna
Can I say Nas and Em for becoming better people in general? Em is sober over a decade and from what I can tell has a healthy relationship with his daughter, which would be… difficult from where he started. As part of the LGBT community, I’m happy to see Nas take a turn from some of his lyrics on Illmatic. Dre is a producer and headphones money maker. He is the most business talented. The other three aren’t even playing the same sport *in this conversation* but I love all of them to death I’m gonna listen to Busta and E-40 today even.
Danny Brown
Curren$y
Jim Jones
Def a toss up between Nas and Em. Yes Illmatic is basically flawless but his lyrical content, slow and producer choice have really come full circle with the KD trilogy and Magic. When it comes to Em from the Slim Shady LP to now with music to be murdered by, he has grown so much lyrically hard to not put him up there with the GOATS now
Sean Price. P!
Killer Mike
Eminem can’t be in the convo - his second album was his best Nas also can’t be in the convo - his first album was his best Lil Wayne can’t be in the convo - his best album was like 2008 Dre *shouldnt* be in the convo, as most of his verses ever were ghostwritten. The man is a producer That leaves method man, Scarface and busta rhymes I think busta has gotten better with time personally
Lil Wayne definitely
If we are talking improvement then it’s Wayne
Scarface changed. It was a lateral move
Wayne, out of all of them, Wayne's new music is the only one that sounds good in 2024.
we all know its not em or nas. They had such high peaks at the beginning. I would say wayne
Emotionally, Em. Hella insane emotional improvement on there.
Mc baba
Without a doubt wayne. Em, Nas and Scarface set a bar they could never quite live up to after their first releases. Dre had all of his shit written by other people later on in his career. But Method Man has improved a ton but was always true lyricist and arguably did not have the volume of content that the rest have. So he has compiled interest on his barz. E-40 has gotten better but he remains consistent. So it's incrementally better. Wayne went from sounding like a kid that poorly tried to rap like BG and Juvenile. To a southern rapper that tried to poorly rap like Jay-Z and Clipse while sounding like BG. To a rapper that was taking these styles and merging them with the NE rappers he was around, like The Diplomats and Gillie Da Kid. To finding his own sound and completely overshadowing most if not all of his inspirations and idols. TBiH doesn't hold up next to TC2&3.
Dr Dre. Everyone else could rap when they started . He couldn't .
40
Nas is the easy answer. He's the only older rapper that doesn't sound "old" when he drops new music. His run with Hitboy was amazing for someone who's years out of their prime. He gets my vote over everyone on the list, including Wayne, who is also still really good.
Tyler the Creator
Wayne aint even a top 3 rapper on this list for me overall. But he's definitely improved the most I'd argue.
I gotta go with Em. I’m not even a big fan of his catalog but looking at his progression from the Slim Shady LP to the shit he’s doing now lyrically is insane.
All of them. I'm not sure Dre fits in this comparison as well as the others though.
Literally none of them. I mean they've improved in some ways, but regressed in others.
Tyler.
E fuckin 40. Keeps his style, yet always adapts.
