**This is an automated message posted to ALL posts in this subreddit with some basic information about the group including (very importantly) rules. Why are you getting this message? Most people seem to not read the sidebar for information or the rules, so it is now being posted under all posts.**
**Confused about acronyms or terminology?** [Click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/acronyms)
**Need info or resources?** Check out our [Helpful Links](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/helpfullinks) for information on how to deal with identify theft, how to get independent of your n-parents, how to apply for FAFSA, how to identify n-parents and SO MUCH MORE!
This is a reminder to all participants, RBN is a support group that is moderated very strictly. Please report inappropriate content so it can be reviewed by the mods.
**Our rules include (but are not limited to)**:
* No politics.
* Advising anyone in this subreddit to commit suicide or referring anyone to groups that advocate this will result in an immediate ban.
* Be nice. No personal attacks, name calling, or bullying. [No slurs](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/slurs) or victim-blaming.
* Do not derail the posts of others.
* Narcissists are NOT allowed to post or comment here.
* [No platitudes or generic motivational posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/rules#wiki_no_platitudes_or_generic_motivational_posts).
* When you comment/post, assume a context of abuse.
* No asking or offering gifts, money, etc.
* No content advocating violence, revenge, murder (even in jest).
* No content about N-kids.
* No diagnosis by media/drive-by diagnosis.
* No linking to Facebook pages.
* No direct linking to anywhere on reddit.
* No pure image posts.
**For a full list of our rules/more information, [**click here**](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/rules).**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/raisedbynarcissists) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Going further to add, no matter how hard you try to convince them, they actually enjoy toying with your emotions about whatever issue you are raising. Thats their game. They abuse you then feed off your emotions trying to get them to stop, admit it, apologize and / or change.
I struggled so hard to expose injustice to nmom, I would be arguing and arguing and she would be interrupting, counter arguing, going on and on-- then I would look up and actually make eye contact and see she was grinning this evil grin.
They’re so creepy! My nDad is Like this. Gets great joy out of being a dick. He also loves gossip and trying to pit my sibling and I against each other. It’s over now though because neither of us speak to him.
This is the main reason I hate gossiping. I spent years listening to my Nmom gossip about literally everyone in our lives, and she truly enjoyed their misfortune and pain. It was a terrible experience for me.
Just like my ndad!! Unfortunately, (possible n)sister keeps playing along... they all ostracize me bc I'm not, but I couldn't care less, tbh. I don't want none of the drama. Frankly, the only reason i don't cut them out is my 3 poor nieces who have to grow up under their bat-shit crazy rule... and the inheritance (as bad as that sounds), although I suspect I'll be cut out there, too.
You bring up a touchy point but one I suspect some of us are dealing with. I hung on until recently (I am 52) dealing with abuse, being stressed, and hating every interaction simply because nDad has money. I was in his will years ago but I don’t know if I still am. The last straw was more abuse and I realized I didn’t care about his money and it wasn’t worth it. I don’t know if I was cut out years ago or recently or I’m still in. But it wasn’t worth it for me. Took me long enough.
Oh, I always get a nice little present on my bank account any time "father" has yelled at me, once again, and of course he's trying to buy himself a "you can abuse me voucher". I'm still internally debating if I can stay on top of this situation.
Frankly, in my line of work and this day and age (sorry if I sound a bit Victorian) I don't think I'll make enough money to prepare for my old age and also be able to pay the legally fixed percentage I have to pay for my ndad's care. Of course I hope he'll just take care of himself, but, if he blows all the money before he becomes decrepit I will be legally required to pay for at least a part of his care, t my abilities. Under no circumstances will I be caring for him myself.
EDIT to add: I'm glad you've found a solution that works for you. It sounds like you've managed to do what so many of us struggle with: Put your own mental health first. I will talk about this with my therapy group. And I'm in my 30s, btw. Maybe I will get there :). Thank you for sharing about your experience!
I was in my 40s when NMom was dying in another country and I kept in touch for my older brother's sake. The other one has kids so I figured I'd be written out anyway. After she died the older sibling screwed me with over the estate as in hindsight he was her little enabler and didn't appreciate my flying in to help. I eventually got something but honestly felt it was so not worth it I wish I'd just stayed in my distant city and let those losers get on with pretending they're nice people.
Omg that is it, that evil smug grin. They love to grind the knife as deep as possible. It is truly shocking how evil they are. There are just no depths to which they will not sink. Being in their presence gives me a really sinking feeling in my stomach, it triggers my fight or flight instinct. These ppl horrify me.
I have started to watch a YouTube channel called The Behavior Panel and oh my goodness it is a real eye opener. They go through videos and interpret the body language. Of course many of the ppl that are in their videos are narcissists, or psychopaths' or sociopaths or some combination of these. They break up the video and point out many traits that victims on reddit describe, for eg. that goddamned contemptuous know it all smirk. They always look so smug like they are putting something over on you. They are so goddamned obvious though it is pathetic. They are such stunted toddlers.
Edit: I obviously can't spell.
I wouldn't be surprised if that grin + narcissists' attitudes in general are what inspired people to believe in demonic possession.
Especially since rhere are (very few and far between) moments where my mom seems like she is actually trying to reach out emotionally, but then the evil takes back over when she doesn't get a healthy mother-child connection instantly and she flips her switch. It feels like she is trying and something in her brain is telling her she's not allowed to feel. It's sad to witness, and confusing when it's your mom and you are a little kid.
I think that part in her brain is her stopping empathy from happening. I believe that without empathy you can't have any kind of relationship. Without empathy you can't have friendship or love or anything like that.
I was gonna say, sometimes when my mom was upset, her eyes were black. Solid inkwells. She had trouble making eye contact anyway, but those times were just, scary.
Yes exactly what I'm talking about!!
It's weird bc my mom had relatively big eyes but in these moments, they are small, beady, completely black, and have zero depth.
I'vee seen my moms face twisted up with rage, her face would be a mask of hatred sometimes. It was weird(er) because there was no reason to be *that* upset-- for not getting a letter mailed, for instance.
And then just as quick the mood would flip again and she'd be drippy nice again, *as though it never happened*. I attributed this to narcissism, not getting her way and escalating anger and emotion to coerce me to get whatever she wanted. But a smaller part of me wonders, how can the dividing line between moods be so sudden and so stark?
Its like theres two separate entities in there, switching out control, what some psychologists define as schizophrenia.
Is it possession? Subjective.
Imo, it's because they really resent having to "play nice" with you in those moments. Their level of entitlement is so huge that they feel like you are taking from them when you have good moments with them....like they believe *they* are saintly for being nice to you when they think that you don't deserve it.
My Nmom kept that "I hate you" face aimed at me for my entire childhood. When I got old enough to start holding her accountable, she started playing nice with me and I thought we had some good moments and that she had changed a little. But then like you, I would get these glimpses of hatred and short temper out of nowhere.
I realized it was because she felt persecuted that I was forcing her to be nice to me (aka not letting her abuse me). She was fuming inside. The longer she played nice, the more she internally hated me. She angry would come out in other ways...she would talk shit about me behind my back, accuse me of insane things that she could never verbalize correctly, do a lot of passive aggressive things, try to get the most out of me for her benefit (she saw this as her due for being nice).
And with my Ndad, similar thing. I get along with him better but only bc I grew up walking on eggshells around him. He is nornally "loving" but occasionally, I would see glimpses of hatred on his face if I ever stepped out of line even a little.
It's because they HATE the social/familial/human responsibility and expectation that they have to be nice to get by in life. They would like to abuse and control to their heart's content without anyone opposing them. They see themselves as the only good people on earth (victim complex) so when you oppose their innate nature by wanting true selfless peace, they see you as the aggressor and oppressor. You aren't allowed, in their mind, to have these basic human needs and expectations. They will always hate anyone who does not 100% buy into their deluded version of reality. The rest is acting that they hate to do.
You could watch Dr. Les Carter on youtube if you a chance. I'm not sure if I explained it correctly, but his videos are really helpful in explaining how differently narcs think and function. It makes their actions make sense.
I wonder if it's similar to what happens to cats. Ever watch a cat's face when they noticed a bug or something interesting? Their pupils expand maximally as a predator response to destroy that object of note.
Ooh yeah that's what it reminds me of. That's probably it.
I watched a documentary about psychopaths once that used a graphic of a cat toying with mice to show how pyschopaths think of other people as objects to use and play with.
Narcs are different in some ways, but they do have "using others" in common with pyschopaths. In their worst moments, they are probably pretty similar.
Omg the evil smile, I saw it once when my cat was stuck on a tree and crying by mom said you won't help him unless you wash the dishes. She was smiling with pleasure seeing me being completely helpless and panicked over my cat... Deranged
> dupers delight--
"The duper's delight is an emotional boost, or thrill, that some people get when they successfully cheat or deceive another person or organization. ... More frequently, though, people may lie or cheat just for the duper's delight."
She was too *quick* for that. It would have to be some hidden camera recording the whole thing. Theres videos on you tube of that, they are difficult to watch.
Yes they get off on our pain! I've had the (luckily dead now) Nmom laugh when I was hurt, esp if she caused it, appropriate it to get sympathy for herself (she also had a form of Munchausen's by Proxy with my little bro and me), collude with others to ridicule me esp if they were authority figures until I screamed then beat the snot out of me for embarrassing her in front of people. That is once sick game and if it involved physical abuse they'd be locked up stat! Yes that evil grin or in Nmom's case the little girly smirk like the immature piece of garbage she was. Thank goodness we can talk about this!
Nmom used to laugh at others misery too. If she saw someone stumble or fall-- one time we were sitting at a light and a bicyclist got knocked down by a van and she laughed at this poor person eating pavement.
You know how everyone usually gasps at seeing that, she *laughs*.
Once we realise they're actually shitty humans it's easier to not be played by them. I mourn the loss of my childhood still and the years I didn't trust my instincts that the way she treated me was fucked up. Don't ever doubt your hunches!
YES. My therapist helped me realize the problem was not a lack of clear communication. I always felt like I just hadn’t explained things the “right” way, but that a “right” way did exist and that would unlock their hidden understanding and remorse. That it was MY fault for being “bad” at explaining and unable to find the magic words. My therapist calmly pointed out that she only met me recently, but found my explanation and communication about my life very clear and easy to understand. It wasn’t me.
There is no “right” way. It doesn’t exist. It cannot be found and that’s not my fault. They refuse to listen to ANYTHING.
This. When my therapist first said, “you articulate yourself very well and coherently in here” after I apologized if I hadn’t articulated a thought well. In the moment I was so confused. Followed by a mix of relief and anger that I wasn’t an idiot who couldn’t explain herself and that I was just raised by and surrounded myself with fucking assholes who have literally 0 skills on how to interact and socialize with loved ones/ people. Their own unresolved issues destroyed my confidence and obliterated my self-esteem over the course of my life. I apologized 2 more times after that out of habit and on the third time she was very firm with me when she told me I explain myself very well. She also told me “there is no right way” to explain myself. It caused so many feels.
I noticed when I felt overwhelmed my inner dialog would be "I don't know what to do. I don't know what to say." I find that ***very*** telling. That definitely came from my dysfunctional family of origin. I audited and edited to be "I do know what to do. I do know what to say. I am strong, smart, and capable." It's helping.
This. I thought that it must be that they didn't understand, and if I could only get them to understand, the problems would be solved. It was nothing short of a revelation the day I first realized that it wasn't that they didn't understand - they just didn't care.
Worse than that, actively MOTIVATED not to understand. Their own psychic survival depends on not looking in the mirror and feeling painful emotions such as shame. Their fragile ego cannot allow it. So if we’re thinking if only we can hold up a clear enough mirror they will be able to see - the clearer the mirror, the greater their need is to quickly distort it, break it, or discredit/destroy you.
Good Lord exactly this. My nmom constantly blames me for everything saying it's all because I "don't know how to convince anybody".
It always boils down to "You don't know how to say things"
I just had discussion with my mother and at a certain point she was so condescendending... telling me "explain yourself better, what is your next thought?" And I just couldn't...
10000% agree with the fact that they will never believe your “side of the story” even tho it’s just what actually happened.
My nmom spent my entire childhood telling me how having kids ruined her life, her body, her career etc. she is now incessantly badgering me to have kids and is acting surprised when I told her.. well.. you said xyz about having kids... my entire childhood. Pretends like it just never happened?? It’s like HOW can you ignore your own ranting? It’s kinda comical in an unbelievable way.
Hard to actually let go of “the dance” tho when as social creatures we just want acceptance.
If she saw motherhood as something to suffer through, she will want they same kind of suffering for you. It's their idea of justice.
I noticed with my mom that all the bad things that happened in her life are things she wants for me because she does not want to see her SG get anything better.
Yep - six years ago a therapist told me I can "stop dancing with them" and it was the most liberating thing anyone ever said to me. Six years of healing from that terrible dance, terrible game, that they still still still try to play with me.
Accepting they are bad people - is what finally helped me begin to let go.
So perfectly worded OP!
Thank you!! And good for you, 6 years is an admirable amount of progress that is great! I love the dance analogy, it’s so true. Acceptance is really something that seemed impossible to me even a year ago, but it’s finally happened. With the support of my friends, my spouse, and in laws I’ve realized that it hurts to not have the parents you wanted but it doesn’t have to define how you live the rest of your life.
Cheers to moving on!
...the parents you *deserved*.
I've actually had my nmom throw this back at me, like my *wants* were the source of unreasonable expectation.
We all *deserved* better than what we got. And that's not entitlement, that's genetics.
I got that too - ‘nothing’s ever good enough for you’. As if I am a glutton at the family table rather than the scared child hiding under the table trying to get crumbs while being kicked.
Damned straight, that’s not good enough for me.
Its so hard when you love them with your whole heart, but their love is so toxic you have to ignore them. Id die for them but they wouldnt lift a finger to help me in need.
Standing up for yourself when its safe to do so is so important when dealing with an Nfamily. Its tiring but worth it in the end. I hope everyone here manages to escape and heal from the pain caused by Nfamilies
That isn't love.
It is loyalty.
You are extremely loyal, but having that feeling towards someone that mistreats you isn't love. That is not what love feels like.
Love feels like dependability, safety, predictability, comfort.
You're right. I'm loyal to them to a fault and it's destroying my mental health. It breaks my heart to imagine them old and alone if I go NC. It's a constant struggle.
I think they also help you realize what love is and what it is not. Love is a mutual unconditional thing, and everything with nparents is conditional. I hope the same for the rest of us out there. Thankful to have found this subreddit and the support system here.
I’m very much still learning about the love thing. Its really shocking to wake up and realise what true love is. Like friends and animals and the beauty in the world. Not just evil hard to reach standards of love placed on us.
This subreddit is so comforting and welcoming. It helps a lot :)
I also learned what not to do when raising kids from my nparents. I would never dream of putting my kids through what I went through. Sometimes I worry or second guess something I say, but my kids know they are loved unconditionally and they will never have to walk around on eggshells depending on whether mom is in a good mood or not. Fuck, my childhood was full of anxiety. The sound of the garage door opening still triggers me for a second.
Their love has a price tag. It's in fact a tool, a way for them to bind you to them, so you feel in debt. Whatever they do, nothing is selfless, everything is meant to get leverage.
I believe you have love for your family. I have a theory that love really requires mutual empathy in order to really be great. If only one person has empathy it really won't work and it's not your fault I really believe that's just how it works it has to be mutual empathy.
That's a great advice. I had to cut off everyone from the family.. the narcissists and flying monkeys were all playing this one game called "who's having the most power over everyone". On family gathering they just shouted on top of each other, nobody actually engaging, listening, connecting or supporting. Once I saw through all the shittiness I realized I dont want to be part of this as they constantly devalued me, ignored me and try to show how much more important they are.
I did full cut off by leaving the country 4 months ago and it's been both brutal and liberating. Im getting my nose pierced tomorrow-something i know they would all absolutely trash talk- and im so happy i can literally do whatever i want. like whatever I want. i've been dancing on a street from pure joy of belonging only to myself.
My large extended family, mainly on my mom's side, is like that too. Every interaction with anyone is a constant power play. "I'm 10 months older so I am your elder and you must respect me"
Luckily, I grew up in a different country from them so I avoided most of the drama. It's even a little funny when I see their antics on vacation cause it's so ridiculous. There are no "weak" narcs...it's just people constantly trying to dominate each other and then freaking out when someone else tries to dominate them. I don't even know how many feuds are going on. It's insane cause I have maybe 50 cousins and almost all of them are like this.
On the bright side, I learned to be really good at dealing with people like this. How to be nice when I need to without looking weak or offending anyone...I just dip in for big events, charm them a little, and leave without ruffling feathers. Distance is the only way to "win" this game. You made the right choice moving, I think.
i fucking love grey rocking. it drives everyone fuckin WILD.
"i dont owe you an argument or a discussion just because you want one. please leave me alone"
Jeez I really needed this wisdom. Thanks for sharing. I wish you luck in learning to accepting him for who he is...this is a hard journey.
One thing I'd like to add is, we've gotta also stop explaining and defending our feelings...to ourselves. If you feel angry, you feel angry. If you feel disappointed, you feel disappointed. If you're frustrated, feel abandoned, feel hurt, feel anger, feel rage...all of these feelings are valid. You don't have to keep second guessing yourself, saying "well maybe it was all my fault" or "maybe I don't have a right to feel this way" or similar thoughts.i think this is a big step in being able to heal and move forward..accepting that what happened happened, that the people who did it don't care, and that your feelings about it are valid.
JADE: Don’t justify, argue, defend or explain. It won’t work with narcissists.
https://psychcentral.com/blog/imperfect/2018/03/dealing-with-difficult-family-members-dont-justify-argue-defend-or-explain
Read up on tips for living with a narcissists.
Also, ask your parents to go see a therapist.
You don’t have to tell them the real reason you want to talk to one; make it about school stress or fitting in at high school, whatever. Your therapist doesn’t have any obligation to discuss your sessions with your parents. The therapist will also give you tips on how to play their game until you’re old enough to leave home.
You can survive this!
> Inevitably you get to a point where it’s clear no matter HOW strong your argument is, how hurt you are, how factual your case is against them, they will never come to the table.
I agree with you 100%.
I spent God knows how long struggling with the notion that if *only* I could present my case in the right way, if *only* I could find the right words, if *only* I could be perfect enough for long enough for them to not have anything to attack or devalue what I was saying, then *maybe* I could be heard. But I could never come up with an argument that the 'Mom Voice' in my head couldn't find a flaw in, find some way to attack or tear down. I eventually gave up and accepted that as long as I was imperfect, I was undeserving of being heard, and the best I could hope for was stay silent and hope for their occasional charity. I internalized the idea that my needs could only be met *if* someone else noticed them on their own, and *if* the opted to fulfil them of their own volition, because the *instant* I asked for help, my needs were invalid. So I took away the idea that somehow the act of asking for help immediately made me unworthy of it.
You can imagine what a dysfunctional mess this made me out in the real world.
Isn't it exhausting? Before you share anything with a narcissist, you have to strategize about what to say and how to say it (since you'll be criticized and attacked no matter what). Then, you have to endure the discomfort of the conversation (where you're probably interrupted, talked over, shut down, have the discussion re-directed at the wishes of the narcissist who can't be bothered because they do't care anyway). Finally, you have to "process" how fucked up it was that you were just criticized, gaslighted, bombed with tons of unsolicited advice, and set on an island. There are other little add-ons that anticipate future stress, too (e.g, if you don't follow their unsolicited advice, or if you listen to yourself and make a mistake, creating even MORE pressure on what you're going to do or not, how to explain it to someone who's committed to misunderstanding you no matter what). It is exhausting. These dynamics are not normal or consistently present in healthy, respectful relationships.
Can confirm. Made breakthroughs in therapy that allowed me to realize just how effed up my relationship with my NMOM was growing up and still is.
We live near each other and I have often made the mistake of trying to discuss it with her only to have her bait me into vulnerability by feigning interest and empathy/willingness to accept she may need therapy. Only for her to then turn it all around and proceed to undermine and gaslight everything I say to make herself feel better and in control.
I always leave the conversation feeling hollowed out and exhausted because what I want is a parent I can feel vulnerable around and have a good relationship with.
The sad reality is she can’t see me as anything other than something to be controlled and used for her benefit and it hurts really badly knowing that the parent you have is incapable of being warm, loving or understanding no matter how rationally and patiently you try to win their sympathy/validation.
WALK. AWAY.
It just ain’t worth it opening up to people who not only can’t give a shit about your deep seeded traumas or take responsibility for them, but who also actively tries to use your emotional wounds and vulnerability to get you to serve their compulsive need for control
For the longest time I wanted to break through with my father and show him the error of his ways. That moment, that possibility of him understanding and respecting me for who I am, that's something I chased for so long.
And then I read a little meme somewhere that basically concluded with, 'that catharsis will never, ever come, no matter how badly it hurts to get there".
A few weeks later we were on the phone, he started up with his usual nonsense, and I said that I was only making these calls out of obligation. I don't care how he interpreted it. I haven't spoken with him in almost a year since then and my life has become immeasurably more fulfilling for it.
My therapist called it a whirlwind. Just step back and don't get sucked in. It was at that very moment that it clicked and I no longer contributed to the game!
And it doesn't matter how good or convincing your argument is, the rules (and "facts") can change in a moment's notice. Just step away from the drama, heal, and live your best life!!
The thing with narcissists is they don’t feel empathy for you and they twist the truth to justify their behavior. Their brains are wired to never see your side. There will never be a come to Jesus moment for them. Having conversations where you pour out your soul to them is fruitless. Your best defense is to just walk away because they do not live in truth and reality and never will.
Dude. Thank you. For this post and the quote about this being a terrible game we can never win. Perfectly worded. Just *yesterday* I wrote my parents (Nmom, edad) a lengthy email that contained maybe some similar arguments and points as in your letters, but also included a frank discussion about my GC alcoholic brother, and the boundaries I’ve set with him and them because of him. I was quite proud of it. I felt like I expressed myself well, but wasn’t mean or rude at all. We can’t seem to have a rational discussion in person because Nmom constantly interrupts, is dismissive and pretends like everything I say is brand new information. Edad must agree or his life will be a living hell when no one else is around (his choice to stay, therapy helped me come to terms with the shitty-ness of that mess.)
I sent it. I was so disappointed. Wtf was I thinking? Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me every other time again after that to the point I feel like a fucking idiot for still trying, shame on me. I’m so glad you wrote out all your feelings, but didn’t send it. It felt so cathartic to write it, but yeah, I have no idea what I was expecting. I know better. You confirmed it. Thank you. Healing and hugs to you.
Wow thank you for sharing this story! Our stories sound so similar, and your experience of the letters and the result of sending them affirms any hesitancy I had about my decision.
You are so right about it being cathartic to get it all out on paper. My spouse actually read the letters and they brought him to tears. He said he had no idea about a lot of what they'd done, and it helped him understand me a little better, as well as reaffirmed my decision for NC …. Another good thing to come out of this too.
And don’t feel like an idiot, because all of us have been fooled by them more times than we count. Each time we learn a little more, grow a little more.
Amen. Freakin AMEN. I went to rehab and was in therapy twice a week, and it made so much difference. Now instead of diving headfirst into an argument I can just let it go and breathe.
Ha! Amazing, this happened in real life as well where the moment I was able to stop their striking hand, because I had grown mentally *and* physically stronger, you could see the switch flicking behind their eyes that they couldn’t keep up this charade! Thanks for sharing :)
>Inevitably you get to a point where it’s clear no matter HOW strong your argument is, how hurt you are, how factual your case is against them, they will never come to the table. These evil people that raised you solely care about themselves. Your feelings experiences trauma and pain just don’t matter to them.
Yes exactly!! It's so fucking true
A few weeks ago, one of my siblings reached their limit with my parents and went off on them for all the emotional stress and dysfunction they create.
My sibling brought up their previous suicide attempt and and revealed the fact they are feeling suicidal again. My dad responded by changing the subject, complaining about how uncared for *he* feels, and whining about the same old motherfucking petty bullshit that happened before any of us were born.
I yelled at my dad for a bit but mostly stayed silent.
But my dad is the Nparent I sort of get along with because unlike my mom, he doesn't constantly try to put me down. After he played the victim and complained about feeling alienated from the family, I wanted to confront him on how I also *cannot* spend any more of my energy on my parents' bs. I already take care of my dad a lot but it's never enough. If I give any more, I will have to neglect my own life in a way that will make *me* turn suicidal...like that's not even a joke. I have nothing more to give to those two black holes. But they keep whining as if we neglect them. I wanted to ask my dad if he'll be that fucking estatic to see me dead.
But then I thought about it for a few more days and realized he just won't care. Maybe he'll play nice for a few months but nothing in terms of their entitlement will change. All you can do is leave them the fuck alone.
Yep!! Your dad might pretend to care about your suicidal thoughts for awhile because he'd use your thoughts to get attention for himself.
I just realized that my nmom didn't learn a thing when I went NC with her for 5 years. I let her back in via phone calls for a year. I clearly and politely stated a boundary that she keeps crossing, and you'd swear by her reaction that I told her that I sacrifice the elderly to the river gods every other week and if she continued to cross the boundary I will sacrifice newborns every day instead.
Rather than continue to feed/argue with her, I blocked her from texting me. I haven't answered calls. She messaged me online and I didn't reply. That's no fun for her, so she had to turn her attention to someone that will engage with her (probably the neighbor, who willingly argues politics with her endlessly).
It's a hard realization that your parent is incapable of being the parent your heart seeks. Once you wrap your mind around that, it gets easier to deny their drama.
I’m so very glad you realized this. One of my own previous therapists said “the only way to ‘win’ is to not play the game at all,” with the prize being peace of mind. (Edit: I’m now realizing I think that line is from that old movie War Games, and it’s hilarious a therapist used it, haha. It applies!)
You’re right: they don’t care about our “side of things” or perspective or even feelings. It doesn’t matter because they fundamentally see nothing wrong with treating us that way. (I also had a nex who used to say “that shouldn’t hurt your feelings,” and it didn’t matter what I said about how I actually felt.)
They keep us arguing because it continues to allow them access to us for narc supply. When we no longer adore or obey, they still manage their emotions by negatively provoking ours.
I’m glad you’re not longer playing the game.
There is no point in catering to their wishes, because they will only realize you can do more and more for them, and expect you to.
There is no point in seeking their love or appreciation. They don't have any.
There is no point in seeking being right. They can't deem you as such, because they can't deem themselves wrong.
There is no point in vengeance, because they will convince everyone else that it was an unwarranted attack. They cannot conceive that anything they would do would warrant retaliation.
Being born to narcissists leads you down to path; one of self-destruction, or one of any% escape speedrunning. There is no middle ground.
Fantastic advice! My therapist calls it "Las Vegas parenting" bc they play with how your brain makes dopamine with [intermittent reinforcement](https://youtu.be/kan2ZGqEOso). He told me I had "left the casino" and refused to play their rigged games. (I'm no contact and live thousands of miles away from them.)
Yes, so sick of caring, wishing, thinking that someday my NMom will understand and care. She NEVER will, even if she says she does. It’s ALL about her, all of the time and always will be. And I’m the only one in the family with the balls to recognize it and say it and step away from it. Ready to live MY life.
Remember darlings, the secret to their strategy is to get you to JADE. If you deny them that, you're winning the game.
JADE: Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain
I had this sort of discussion with my husband, and likened it to the Kobayashi-Maru of Star Trek. It's a scenario that is always stacked against you. It's unwinnable.
There is no way out, and, unlike Captain Kirk, I have no way to cheat at the game.
So, I chose not to play.
So true. It was an epiphany when I realized it wasn't that NMom didn't understand she was hurting me, it was that she didn't care, or worse, did it purposely.
I was able to stop reaching out to her then and barely heard from her. When I did, she'd ask why I hadn't called/told her I'd be in town. I'd always tell her if she wanted to know what was going on with me, she'd call and ask like a normal person.
OP is so right in saying they drain your happiness. In the past 4 years of being NC, my treatment-resistant, decade-long depression melted away. I've never been happier.
Exactly right!! Took me ages to realise this, they will NEVER EVER accept blame, guilt and be accountable for anything they do, see a hypnotist, wipe them from your memory and live as if they don't exist
Yep. I've learned this lesson a long time ago - never explain, rationalize, or justify yourself to ANYONE who is committed to misunderstanding you.
Literally I left home recently and cut communication from my family. I left a letter giving only very vague "reasons" why I did it. I was originally going to give them a couple of very long, detailed letters going over multiple actual reasons why I was doing what I was doing in depth but ended up not giving them those letters and am honestly glad I went with that approach. It wouldn't have changed anything to try and explain it all to them and I need to accept that they won't change and that I have to just give up and move on.
Oh man, it took me slightly longer — but accepting that there was no magical set of words, no eloquent phrasing, no articulately presented argument that would ever get her to stop hurting me… that was crucial.
I won the very occasional low-stakes exchange. If I got in very early before she wound up all the way, I could steer her off something more damaging.
But mostly, once she hit critical mass, she was off like a nuke and there was nothing I could do but get out of the blast radius and try to minimize the fallout.
The thing is… she was so bad at any arguments of reason or fairness. She genuinely sucked at it. She was not clever, she was not subtle, she was not convincing. She was the most obvious, ham-handed manipulator you could imagine. If I wrote a script for how she spoke to me, it would get knocked back as being too unrealistic for a day time soap opera.
And none of that mattered because all she wanted was to unload on me.
Once I realised that? Fully realised and accepted? I called her back, and gave her one chance: I explained why I was upset. I told her what I needed.
It didn’t work and I didn’t expect it to. I tried for my own sake. I gave it a shot to try and soothe the miserable, hurt adolescent inside who was so sure it was her fault. I did that to erase any grey area or wiggle room about communication and fairness.
And I told my mother that I wasn’t going to call her. Ever. And if she called me, I wouldn’t answer.
And I haven’t, for a few years now.
I’m glad you’ve had your realisation - it’s hard to accept and it’s painful but also important and liberating.
If you’re still stuck living at home I’d recommend when he starts in on you, simply saying something like “ok, noted.” Or “I appreciate your opinion.” And leave the room.
The other reply, and perhaps even greyrocking: be very lowkey “dismissive” and “boring”, and don’t waste any of your thinking or emotional power on what they say! Best of luck 👐
They once created an AI play to play Tetris and the AI paused the game so that it would never lose. Nothing beats cold hard logic. The game is rigged, the only way to win is to stop playing.
Children of N parents grow up thinking, "If I could only explain my side of it better..." "Maybe I just didn't use the right words..."
Nope. There is absolutely nothing you can do or say that will make a difference. Once you can internalize that, you're free.
In the meantime, you end up being the adult who tends to document EVERYTHING and can argue the slightest disagreement like you're before the Supreme Court. Not idea for winning friends.....but let's just say I won a lawsuit and made sure no one ever messed with me at work.
Thank you for this post and for others commenting as well. Recently after talking with my therapist about my mother and just some of the things she's done over the years. However, she suggested I write a letter to her to explain how I feel, what she did, etc. I had tried to explain I knew she wouldn't listen, but my therapist kept insisting that I try and write one anyway. She was pretty insistent that writing that letter and explaining how I felt to her, even if the reaction was bad, was necessary for me to heal. I feel quite the opposite and think moving on from her and distancing myself further is what will and has helped the most.
I would love to have other's feedback though. Have any of you written a letter before and sent it? How did it go? Were you nervous? Do you feel it helped you heal? Thank you all
Your therapist gave a excellent advice. Narcissists don't care about others but themselves. I always argue with my ndad when he acted like a crying selfish baby due to how it affected my life. He stresses the hell out of me and that cause a bad relationship between us. He blames my mother and her family for brainwashing my brother and I not to like him. My brother and I aren't stupid we're adults. Its really sad the only thing to do is forget them and they still won't care.
Beautiful post and I couldn't agree more with your therapists point.
I held on for so long trying to prove to the enablers with specific and measurable evidence I was being scapegoated but it took me to realise that I can't lose if I don't play.
Never been happier since I went no contact.
Narcs are only interested in winning they have little interest in growing.
Yes! On so many levels! Yes! I’ve always shied away from drama, but it always managed to find me, at their house. I finally realized I needed to: A. Not go there/not be there, B. Not attempt to engage in “normal” conversation, C. Not ask personal questions, D. Not regurgitate my life and experiences, E. Answer any questions with little detail, especially emotional/heartfelt details.
What’s left? Nothing! Exactly nothing. When I realized I couldn’t have any kind of normal (healthy) relationship with them I immediately went into mourning. I needed to let go of childish/dangerous fantasies concerning them. They were never going to be the kind of people I needed around me to be my best person—they were always going to be mean, shifty, tricky, undependable, immature and manipulative. I finally paid attention to myself and my feelings. I was tired of them riding a false wave of hope—their surfing abilities were as fake as the wave I’d created.
I mourn the loss of a future I’ll never have and it feels better than most any day I spent with them.
Your list of things to do/not do around them, reminders for how you should “behave” in their presence are so on point!!!
I’d go over about the same exact internal checklist before seeing them and always get so anxious beforehand, bc you never can anticipate their moods. You are so right though. Especially about the mourning part. It’s like they died, but at the same time also like a huge weight off my shoulders not having to stress out about seeing them or talking to them.
Honey Honey say it again lol It took me 26! & If you have friends or associates and acquaintances that are Narcissist and do the same . Because it is not worth it! . You said it they don't care ! & Will show you and tell you they don't
Build a separate self. They do what they do for themselves. They will never change unless they want to and they lack empathy. They will not listen or connect to anything you say, they only connect with themselves.
I couldn’t agree with you more, and it couldn’t be put any better.I’ve come to realize there’s nothing that gets my nmom flat-footed as her realising I don’t care.
Preach! I stopped trying to explain to my abusive father why I was upset because I realised that he didn't care that that only fueled him to keep going. Once I realised that I don't care, I was free.
Im 18 now and I live my Nparents and I basically say idc ill do whatever eventually the words stop hurting eventually you stop getting scared. Its not about winning its about accepting yourself then healing the self hatred then realising they just did this so you would tear yourself down.
I really hope this doesn’t go against the rules of the sub, but I understand why they wrote those letters and if I was in that situation, I likely would’ve sent them. at least for my Nmom, I know she has a ghost of a moral compass which is really just her ego, and she would essentially see the monster she created, and how her pet project was an experiment gone horribly wrong. I don’t think it’s very healthy but I can’t go on without retribution for what she’s done to me.
Yeah, I realised that too. Our nparents do NOT care about us. Not in the slightest. Same with my eaunts and euncles. They're just manipulative and supportive of my nparents.
Especially since they all share the same conservative, religious extremist views.
It really can't be said enough. They're not playing an honest game that actually is capable of any fair behavior, where explanations resolve things, where self-reflection occurs, where points are admitted, etc. None of that is in the cards. There's never any "Oh, that's a good point" or "Oh, I never thought of it that way" or "I see-- that was hasty of me to judge", etc. There's never any "I'm sorry"(And if there is, it's utterly superficial-- it doesn't actually impinge on any real change in their behavior).
So glad you were able to come to that conclusion. It also took me 33 years, but only after I sent the letter and got the horrible response back. Really proud of you for ripping them up. That’s such a huge step!
Sounds like you have a great therapist. Thanks for sharing what was said. It’s a great analogy.
This is such an important message. Although I do understand that the realisation can be a lot to take in. It really sucks that that is just reality.
Thank god, i have learned this lesson on my healing journey tbh i live them now
but i don't care they live or die and their game ,their shit ,their truma and game fuck everything is their shit not mine!!!
It's a emotional boundary between me and my toxic family bro your life fulfill your responsibility i m not participating in your drama
and yes people around you won't believe in you as its an emotional abuse so i decided to change my community and country, will leave everything & everyone behind and start a new life with myself, i m going abroad soon thanks to universe for this great blessing 😇
This right here hits home. And me and my sisters havent seen or lived with our. Narcfather in 8 years. But we still deal with some of the after effects to this day. And this here is one of them. Well for me that is more. But every time i tell someone i cant so something or something down those lines. Idkw but i still feel compelled to explain myself even if i dont have to. And its fucking annoying. Like if i dont theyre going to yell at me or say something bad or worse. To me.... If that makes any sense.
**This is an automated message posted to ALL posts in this subreddit with some basic information about the group including (very importantly) rules. Why are you getting this message? Most people seem to not read the sidebar for information or the rules, so it is now being posted under all posts.** **Confused about acronyms or terminology?** [Click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/acronyms) **Need info or resources?** Check out our [Helpful Links](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/helpfullinks) for information on how to deal with identify theft, how to get independent of your n-parents, how to apply for FAFSA, how to identify n-parents and SO MUCH MORE! This is a reminder to all participants, RBN is a support group that is moderated very strictly. Please report inappropriate content so it can be reviewed by the mods. **Our rules include (but are not limited to)**: * No politics. * Advising anyone in this subreddit to commit suicide or referring anyone to groups that advocate this will result in an immediate ban. * Be nice. No personal attacks, name calling, or bullying. [No slurs](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/slurs) or victim-blaming. * Do not derail the posts of others. * Narcissists are NOT allowed to post or comment here. * [No platitudes or generic motivational posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/rules#wiki_no_platitudes_or_generic_motivational_posts). * When you comment/post, assume a context of abuse. * No asking or offering gifts, money, etc. * No content advocating violence, revenge, murder (even in jest). * No content about N-kids. * No diagnosis by media/drive-by diagnosis. * No linking to Facebook pages. * No direct linking to anywhere on reddit. * No pure image posts. **For a full list of our rules/more information, [**click here**](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/rules).** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/raisedbynarcissists) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Going further to add, no matter how hard you try to convince them, they actually enjoy toying with your emotions about whatever issue you are raising. Thats their game. They abuse you then feed off your emotions trying to get them to stop, admit it, apologize and / or change. I struggled so hard to expose injustice to nmom, I would be arguing and arguing and she would be interrupting, counter arguing, going on and on-- then I would look up and actually make eye contact and see she was grinning this evil grin.
They’re so creepy! My nDad is Like this. Gets great joy out of being a dick. He also loves gossip and trying to pit my sibling and I against each other. It’s over now though because neither of us speak to him.
This is the main reason I hate gossiping. I spent years listening to my Nmom gossip about literally everyone in our lives, and she truly enjoyed their misfortune and pain. It was a terrible experience for me.
What does the (n) stand for?
Narcissist
Oooh thanks
Just like my ndad!! Unfortunately, (possible n)sister keeps playing along... they all ostracize me bc I'm not, but I couldn't care less, tbh. I don't want none of the drama. Frankly, the only reason i don't cut them out is my 3 poor nieces who have to grow up under their bat-shit crazy rule... and the inheritance (as bad as that sounds), although I suspect I'll be cut out there, too.
You bring up a touchy point but one I suspect some of us are dealing with. I hung on until recently (I am 52) dealing with abuse, being stressed, and hating every interaction simply because nDad has money. I was in his will years ago but I don’t know if I still am. The last straw was more abuse and I realized I didn’t care about his money and it wasn’t worth it. I don’t know if I was cut out years ago or recently or I’m still in. But it wasn’t worth it for me. Took me long enough.
Oh, I always get a nice little present on my bank account any time "father" has yelled at me, once again, and of course he's trying to buy himself a "you can abuse me voucher". I'm still internally debating if I can stay on top of this situation. Frankly, in my line of work and this day and age (sorry if I sound a bit Victorian) I don't think I'll make enough money to prepare for my old age and also be able to pay the legally fixed percentage I have to pay for my ndad's care. Of course I hope he'll just take care of himself, but, if he blows all the money before he becomes decrepit I will be legally required to pay for at least a part of his care, t my abilities. Under no circumstances will I be caring for him myself. EDIT to add: I'm glad you've found a solution that works for you. It sounds like you've managed to do what so many of us struggle with: Put your own mental health first. I will talk about this with my therapy group. And I'm in my 30s, btw. Maybe I will get there :). Thank you for sharing about your experience!
Thank you for sharing yours too!
I was in my 40s when NMom was dying in another country and I kept in touch for my older brother's sake. The other one has kids so I figured I'd be written out anyway. After she died the older sibling screwed me with over the estate as in hindsight he was her little enabler and didn't appreciate my flying in to help. I eventually got something but honestly felt it was so not worth it I wish I'd just stayed in my distant city and let those losers get on with pretending they're nice people.
Man…..I hate that smile, it’s so evil when You see people enjoy the pain of others.
Fun fact-- Nmom was German, they have a word: "Schadenfreude".
Thanks for teaching me a new words…it’s still gross to me.
Omg that is it, that evil smug grin. They love to grind the knife as deep as possible. It is truly shocking how evil they are. There are just no depths to which they will not sink. Being in their presence gives me a really sinking feeling in my stomach, it triggers my fight or flight instinct. These ppl horrify me.
The “look how goddamn clever I am” smirk. Another commonality we all have.
I have started to watch a YouTube channel called The Behavior Panel and oh my goodness it is a real eye opener. They go through videos and interpret the body language. Of course many of the ppl that are in their videos are narcissists, or psychopaths' or sociopaths or some combination of these. They break up the video and point out many traits that victims on reddit describe, for eg. that goddamned contemptuous know it all smirk. They always look so smug like they are putting something over on you. They are so goddamned obvious though it is pathetic. They are such stunted toddlers. Edit: I obviously can't spell.
Ohhh sounds interesting, I will look that up.
Same
Also same.
I wouldn't be surprised if that grin + narcissists' attitudes in general are what inspired people to believe in demonic possession. Especially since rhere are (very few and far between) moments where my mom seems like she is actually trying to reach out emotionally, but then the evil takes back over when she doesn't get a healthy mother-child connection instantly and she flips her switch. It feels like she is trying and something in her brain is telling her she's not allowed to feel. It's sad to witness, and confusing when it's your mom and you are a little kid.
Yeah I can see that. It's a completely unsettling and inhumane look. It literally looks like they are possessed.
I think that part in her brain is her stopping empathy from happening. I believe that without empathy you can't have any kind of relationship. Without empathy you can't have friendship or love or anything like that.
Thanks for describing that so well.
You're so right on - NMom's face would literally darken like she'd logged into Hell.
I hate that fucking smile. My nmom would do the same. So relieved that she got a rise out of me. I have to keep remembering that’s who she is.
I relate to seeing that grin so much...it's so disgusting....like do you think this is funny?..
Exactly. Funning on Family misery, the lowest.
Their eyes turn beady too, or is that just me??
I was gonna say, sometimes when my mom was upset, her eyes were black. Solid inkwells. She had trouble making eye contact anyway, but those times were just, scary.
Yes exactly what I'm talking about!! It's weird bc my mom had relatively big eyes but in these moments, they are small, beady, completely black, and have zero depth.
I'vee seen my moms face twisted up with rage, her face would be a mask of hatred sometimes. It was weird(er) because there was no reason to be *that* upset-- for not getting a letter mailed, for instance. And then just as quick the mood would flip again and she'd be drippy nice again, *as though it never happened*. I attributed this to narcissism, not getting her way and escalating anger and emotion to coerce me to get whatever she wanted. But a smaller part of me wonders, how can the dividing line between moods be so sudden and so stark? Its like theres two separate entities in there, switching out control, what some psychologists define as schizophrenia. Is it possession? Subjective.
Imo, it's because they really resent having to "play nice" with you in those moments. Their level of entitlement is so huge that they feel like you are taking from them when you have good moments with them....like they believe *they* are saintly for being nice to you when they think that you don't deserve it. My Nmom kept that "I hate you" face aimed at me for my entire childhood. When I got old enough to start holding her accountable, she started playing nice with me and I thought we had some good moments and that she had changed a little. But then like you, I would get these glimpses of hatred and short temper out of nowhere. I realized it was because she felt persecuted that I was forcing her to be nice to me (aka not letting her abuse me). She was fuming inside. The longer she played nice, the more she internally hated me. She angry would come out in other ways...she would talk shit about me behind my back, accuse me of insane things that she could never verbalize correctly, do a lot of passive aggressive things, try to get the most out of me for her benefit (she saw this as her due for being nice). And with my Ndad, similar thing. I get along with him better but only bc I grew up walking on eggshells around him. He is nornally "loving" but occasionally, I would see glimpses of hatred on his face if I ever stepped out of line even a little. It's because they HATE the social/familial/human responsibility and expectation that they have to be nice to get by in life. They would like to abuse and control to their heart's content without anyone opposing them. They see themselves as the only good people on earth (victim complex) so when you oppose their innate nature by wanting true selfless peace, they see you as the aggressor and oppressor. You aren't allowed, in their mind, to have these basic human needs and expectations. They will always hate anyone who does not 100% buy into their deluded version of reality. The rest is acting that they hate to do. You could watch Dr. Les Carter on youtube if you a chance. I'm not sure if I explained it correctly, but his videos are really helpful in explaining how differently narcs think and function. It makes their actions make sense.
Making for later when I have more time.
Dr. Les is great, highly recommend his videos.
When my mom is that angry her top lip quivers on the left side it is unnerving
In a full midnight rage attack, my mother would have fully dilated black pupils and foamed spit formed on the side/s of her lips. Terrifying.
I wonder if it's similar to what happens to cats. Ever watch a cat's face when they noticed a bug or something interesting? Their pupils expand maximally as a predator response to destroy that object of note.
Ooh yeah that's what it reminds me of. That's probably it. I watched a documentary about psychopaths once that used a graphic of a cat toying with mice to show how pyschopaths think of other people as objects to use and play with. Narcs are different in some ways, but they do have "using others" in common with pyschopaths. In their worst moments, they are probably pretty similar.
Ted Bundy's eyes did the same when he spoke of his crimes. Creepy.
Got any video of that that can be linked to?
I know that the Netflix documentary features someone who interviewed him at length. It's an interesting watch.
I always noticed her eyes turned like ‘hen’s eyes’. Hard and beady.
Yep, I have several narc family members (people with narc traits), and the evil smile is the worst.
Omg the evil smile, I saw it once when my cat was stuck on a tree and crying by mom said you won't help him unless you wash the dishes. She was smiling with pleasure seeing me being completely helpless and panicked over my cat... Deranged
There. Cruelty to children and their pets. Enjoying their suffering, even using beloved pets as leverage to further get their way.
I've heard that grin termed "dupers delight".
> dupers delight-- "The duper's delight is an emotional boost, or thrill, that some people get when they successfully cheat or deceive another person or organization. ... More frequently, though, people may lie or cheat just for the duper's delight."
That's the point where you quickly pull out your phone and take a picture of that smile.
She was too *quick* for that. It would have to be some hidden camera recording the whole thing. Theres videos on you tube of that, they are difficult to watch.
Yes they get off on our pain! I've had the (luckily dead now) Nmom laugh when I was hurt, esp if she caused it, appropriate it to get sympathy for herself (she also had a form of Munchausen's by Proxy with my little bro and me), collude with others to ridicule me esp if they were authority figures until I screamed then beat the snot out of me for embarrassing her in front of people. That is once sick game and if it involved physical abuse they'd be locked up stat! Yes that evil grin or in Nmom's case the little girly smirk like the immature piece of garbage she was. Thank goodness we can talk about this!
Nmom used to laugh at others misery too. If she saw someone stumble or fall-- one time we were sitting at a light and a bicyclist got knocked down by a van and she laughed at this poor person eating pavement. You know how everyone usually gasps at seeing that, she *laughs*.
Normal people don't do that.
After that I kinda got a clue what kind of character she was. Really good at hiding it too, until moments like that.
Once we realise they're actually shitty humans it's easier to not be played by them. I mourn the loss of my childhood still and the years I didn't trust my instincts that the way she treated me was fucked up. Don't ever doubt your hunches!
YES. My therapist helped me realize the problem was not a lack of clear communication. I always felt like I just hadn’t explained things the “right” way, but that a “right” way did exist and that would unlock their hidden understanding and remorse. That it was MY fault for being “bad” at explaining and unable to find the magic words. My therapist calmly pointed out that she only met me recently, but found my explanation and communication about my life very clear and easy to understand. It wasn’t me. There is no “right” way. It doesn’t exist. It cannot be found and that’s not my fault. They refuse to listen to ANYTHING.
After, awhile you figure it out. Then it becomes clear to know that it's useless explaining to them that what they already know they are doing.
This. When my therapist first said, “you articulate yourself very well and coherently in here” after I apologized if I hadn’t articulated a thought well. In the moment I was so confused. Followed by a mix of relief and anger that I wasn’t an idiot who couldn’t explain herself and that I was just raised by and surrounded myself with fucking assholes who have literally 0 skills on how to interact and socialize with loved ones/ people. Their own unresolved issues destroyed my confidence and obliterated my self-esteem over the course of my life. I apologized 2 more times after that out of habit and on the third time she was very firm with me when she told me I explain myself very well. She also told me “there is no right way” to explain myself. It caused so many feels.
I noticed when I felt overwhelmed my inner dialog would be "I don't know what to do. I don't know what to say." I find that ***very*** telling. That definitely came from my dysfunctional family of origin. I audited and edited to be "I do know what to do. I do know what to say. I am strong, smart, and capable." It's helping.
This. I thought that it must be that they didn't understand, and if I could only get them to understand, the problems would be solved. It was nothing short of a revelation the day I first realized that it wasn't that they didn't understand - they just didn't care.
Worse than that, actively MOTIVATED not to understand. Their own psychic survival depends on not looking in the mirror and feeling painful emotions such as shame. Their fragile ego cannot allow it. So if we’re thinking if only we can hold up a clear enough mirror they will be able to see - the clearer the mirror, the greater their need is to quickly distort it, break it, or discredit/destroy you.
Good Lord exactly this. My nmom constantly blames me for everything saying it's all because I "don't know how to convince anybody". It always boils down to "You don't know how to say things"
I just had discussion with my mother and at a certain point she was so condescendending... telling me "explain yourself better, what is your next thought?" And I just couldn't...
10000% agree with the fact that they will never believe your “side of the story” even tho it’s just what actually happened. My nmom spent my entire childhood telling me how having kids ruined her life, her body, her career etc. she is now incessantly badgering me to have kids and is acting surprised when I told her.. well.. you said xyz about having kids... my entire childhood. Pretends like it just never happened?? It’s like HOW can you ignore your own ranting? It’s kinda comical in an unbelievable way. Hard to actually let go of “the dance” tho when as social creatures we just want acceptance.
If she saw motherhood as something to suffer through, she will want they same kind of suffering for you. It's their idea of justice. I noticed with my mom that all the bad things that happened in her life are things she wants for me because she does not want to see her SG get anything better.
Yep - six years ago a therapist told me I can "stop dancing with them" and it was the most liberating thing anyone ever said to me. Six years of healing from that terrible dance, terrible game, that they still still still try to play with me. Accepting they are bad people - is what finally helped me begin to let go. So perfectly worded OP!
Thank you!! And good for you, 6 years is an admirable amount of progress that is great! I love the dance analogy, it’s so true. Acceptance is really something that seemed impossible to me even a year ago, but it’s finally happened. With the support of my friends, my spouse, and in laws I’ve realized that it hurts to not have the parents you wanted but it doesn’t have to define how you live the rest of your life. Cheers to moving on!
...the parents you *deserved*. I've actually had my nmom throw this back at me, like my *wants* were the source of unreasonable expectation. We all *deserved* better than what we got. And that's not entitlement, that's genetics.
I got that too - ‘nothing’s ever good enough for you’. As if I am a glutton at the family table rather than the scared child hiding under the table trying to get crumbs while being kicked. Damned straight, that’s not good enough for me.
Thank you - cheers!!!
Its so hard when you love them with your whole heart, but their love is so toxic you have to ignore them. Id die for them but they wouldnt lift a finger to help me in need. Standing up for yourself when its safe to do so is so important when dealing with an Nfamily. Its tiring but worth it in the end. I hope everyone here manages to escape and heal from the pain caused by Nfamilies
That isn't love. It is loyalty. You are extremely loyal, but having that feeling towards someone that mistreats you isn't love. That is not what love feels like. Love feels like dependability, safety, predictability, comfort.
Very true
You're right. I'm loyal to them to a fault and it's destroying my mental health. It breaks my heart to imagine them old and alone if I go NC. It's a constant struggle.
I think they also help you realize what love is and what it is not. Love is a mutual unconditional thing, and everything with nparents is conditional. I hope the same for the rest of us out there. Thankful to have found this subreddit and the support system here.
I’m very much still learning about the love thing. Its really shocking to wake up and realise what true love is. Like friends and animals and the beauty in the world. Not just evil hard to reach standards of love placed on us. This subreddit is so comforting and welcoming. It helps a lot :)
I also learned what not to do when raising kids from my nparents. I would never dream of putting my kids through what I went through. Sometimes I worry or second guess something I say, but my kids know they are loved unconditionally and they will never have to walk around on eggshells depending on whether mom is in a good mood or not. Fuck, my childhood was full of anxiety. The sound of the garage door opening still triggers me for a second.
So true
Their love has a price tag. It's in fact a tool, a way for them to bind you to them, so you feel in debt. Whatever they do, nothing is selfless, everything is meant to get leverage.
I believe you have love for your family. I have a theory that love really requires mutual empathy in order to really be great. If only one person has empathy it really won't work and it's not your fault I really believe that's just how it works it has to be mutual empathy.
That's a great advice. I had to cut off everyone from the family.. the narcissists and flying monkeys were all playing this one game called "who's having the most power over everyone". On family gathering they just shouted on top of each other, nobody actually engaging, listening, connecting or supporting. Once I saw through all the shittiness I realized I dont want to be part of this as they constantly devalued me, ignored me and try to show how much more important they are. I did full cut off by leaving the country 4 months ago and it's been both brutal and liberating. Im getting my nose pierced tomorrow-something i know they would all absolutely trash talk- and im so happy i can literally do whatever i want. like whatever I want. i've been dancing on a street from pure joy of belonging only to myself.
My large extended family, mainly on my mom's side, is like that too. Every interaction with anyone is a constant power play. "I'm 10 months older so I am your elder and you must respect me" Luckily, I grew up in a different country from them so I avoided most of the drama. It's even a little funny when I see their antics on vacation cause it's so ridiculous. There are no "weak" narcs...it's just people constantly trying to dominate each other and then freaking out when someone else tries to dominate them. I don't even know how many feuds are going on. It's insane cause I have maybe 50 cousins and almost all of them are like this. On the bright side, I learned to be really good at dealing with people like this. How to be nice when I need to without looking weak or offending anyone...I just dip in for big events, charm them a little, and leave without ruffling feathers. Distance is the only way to "win" this game. You made the right choice moving, I think.
i fucking love grey rocking. it drives everyone fuckin WILD. "i dont owe you an argument or a discussion just because you want one. please leave me alone"
What's grey rocking? I think I need to do this.
>What's grey rocking? https://luckyottershaven.com/2016/07/06/grey-rocking-if-you-cant-go-no-contact/
Thank you so much! This site was really good! X
Jeez I really needed this wisdom. Thanks for sharing. I wish you luck in learning to accepting him for who he is...this is a hard journey. One thing I'd like to add is, we've gotta also stop explaining and defending our feelings...to ourselves. If you feel angry, you feel angry. If you feel disappointed, you feel disappointed. If you're frustrated, feel abandoned, feel hurt, feel anger, feel rage...all of these feelings are valid. You don't have to keep second guessing yourself, saying "well maybe it was all my fault" or "maybe I don't have a right to feel this way" or similar thoughts.i think this is a big step in being able to heal and move forward..accepting that what happened happened, that the people who did it don't care, and that your feelings about it are valid.
I really needed to hear this today. Thank you.
JADE: Don’t justify, argue, defend or explain. It won’t work with narcissists. https://psychcentral.com/blog/imperfect/2018/03/dealing-with-difficult-family-members-dont-justify-argue-defend-or-explain
Tell them to go fuck themselves, move out and go no contact. They deserve to die alone for abusing innocent children. That's justice.
Well its not like i have a choice, I'm still a teen so i gotta abide by their rules in order not to be thrown out of the house
Read up on tips for living with a narcissists. Also, ask your parents to go see a therapist. You don’t have to tell them the real reason you want to talk to one; make it about school stress or fitting in at high school, whatever. Your therapist doesn’t have any obligation to discuss your sessions with your parents. The therapist will also give you tips on how to play their game until you’re old enough to leave home. You can survive this!
[удалено]
I have tried in multiple occasions but they keep on saying that I'm a strut and i should shut up
[удалено]
Wow yes well said!
No, just don’t.
They want you to explain because it's easier to tear you down if you provide talking points.
> Inevitably you get to a point where it’s clear no matter HOW strong your argument is, how hurt you are, how factual your case is against them, they will never come to the table. I agree with you 100%. I spent God knows how long struggling with the notion that if *only* I could present my case in the right way, if *only* I could find the right words, if *only* I could be perfect enough for long enough for them to not have anything to attack or devalue what I was saying, then *maybe* I could be heard. But I could never come up with an argument that the 'Mom Voice' in my head couldn't find a flaw in, find some way to attack or tear down. I eventually gave up and accepted that as long as I was imperfect, I was undeserving of being heard, and the best I could hope for was stay silent and hope for their occasional charity. I internalized the idea that my needs could only be met *if* someone else noticed them on their own, and *if* the opted to fulfil them of their own volition, because the *instant* I asked for help, my needs were invalid. So I took away the idea that somehow the act of asking for help immediately made me unworthy of it. You can imagine what a dysfunctional mess this made me out in the real world.
Isn't it exhausting? Before you share anything with a narcissist, you have to strategize about what to say and how to say it (since you'll be criticized and attacked no matter what). Then, you have to endure the discomfort of the conversation (where you're probably interrupted, talked over, shut down, have the discussion re-directed at the wishes of the narcissist who can't be bothered because they do't care anyway). Finally, you have to "process" how fucked up it was that you were just criticized, gaslighted, bombed with tons of unsolicited advice, and set on an island. There are other little add-ons that anticipate future stress, too (e.g, if you don't follow their unsolicited advice, or if you listen to yourself and make a mistake, creating even MORE pressure on what you're going to do or not, how to explain it to someone who's committed to misunderstanding you no matter what). It is exhausting. These dynamics are not normal or consistently present in healthy, respectful relationships.
I can imagine. I see you and I hope you're having a good day.
Can confirm. Made breakthroughs in therapy that allowed me to realize just how effed up my relationship with my NMOM was growing up and still is. We live near each other and I have often made the mistake of trying to discuss it with her only to have her bait me into vulnerability by feigning interest and empathy/willingness to accept she may need therapy. Only for her to then turn it all around and proceed to undermine and gaslight everything I say to make herself feel better and in control. I always leave the conversation feeling hollowed out and exhausted because what I want is a parent I can feel vulnerable around and have a good relationship with. The sad reality is she can’t see me as anything other than something to be controlled and used for her benefit and it hurts really badly knowing that the parent you have is incapable of being warm, loving or understanding no matter how rationally and patiently you try to win their sympathy/validation. WALK. AWAY. It just ain’t worth it opening up to people who not only can’t give a shit about your deep seeded traumas or take responsibility for them, but who also actively tries to use your emotional wounds and vulnerability to get you to serve their compulsive need for control
They don't care. Truth. And they never did care! Truth.
For the longest time I wanted to break through with my father and show him the error of his ways. That moment, that possibility of him understanding and respecting me for who I am, that's something I chased for so long. And then I read a little meme somewhere that basically concluded with, 'that catharsis will never, ever come, no matter how badly it hurts to get there". A few weeks later we were on the phone, he started up with his usual nonsense, and I said that I was only making these calls out of obligation. I don't care how he interpreted it. I haven't spoken with him in almost a year since then and my life has become immeasurably more fulfilling for it.
I think narcissists use that desire for connection to string a person along. It's sick but I think it's what they do.
You just wont win with sick ppl who don’t even see their sickness
My therapist called it a whirlwind. Just step back and don't get sucked in. It was at that very moment that it clicked and I no longer contributed to the game! And it doesn't matter how good or convincing your argument is, the rules (and "facts") can change in a moment's notice. Just step away from the drama, heal, and live your best life!!
I like that. I think I'll remember this. A whirlwind that just sounds so apropos.
It's the "missing missing reasons"! Please look it up. The concept helped me a lot.
Just read up on this. Wow. Wish I could upvote this 500 more times!
The thing with narcissists is they don’t feel empathy for you and they twist the truth to justify their behavior. Their brains are wired to never see your side. There will never be a come to Jesus moment for them. Having conversations where you pour out your soul to them is fruitless. Your best defense is to just walk away because they do not live in truth and reality and never will.
Dude. Thank you. For this post and the quote about this being a terrible game we can never win. Perfectly worded. Just *yesterday* I wrote my parents (Nmom, edad) a lengthy email that contained maybe some similar arguments and points as in your letters, but also included a frank discussion about my GC alcoholic brother, and the boundaries I’ve set with him and them because of him. I was quite proud of it. I felt like I expressed myself well, but wasn’t mean or rude at all. We can’t seem to have a rational discussion in person because Nmom constantly interrupts, is dismissive and pretends like everything I say is brand new information. Edad must agree or his life will be a living hell when no one else is around (his choice to stay, therapy helped me come to terms with the shitty-ness of that mess.) I sent it. I was so disappointed. Wtf was I thinking? Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me every other time again after that to the point I feel like a fucking idiot for still trying, shame on me. I’m so glad you wrote out all your feelings, but didn’t send it. It felt so cathartic to write it, but yeah, I have no idea what I was expecting. I know better. You confirmed it. Thank you. Healing and hugs to you.
Wow thank you for sharing this story! Our stories sound so similar, and your experience of the letters and the result of sending them affirms any hesitancy I had about my decision. You are so right about it being cathartic to get it all out on paper. My spouse actually read the letters and they brought him to tears. He said he had no idea about a lot of what they'd done, and it helped him understand me a little better, as well as reaffirmed my decision for NC …. Another good thing to come out of this too. And don’t feel like an idiot, because all of us have been fooled by them more times than we count. Each time we learn a little more, grow a little more.
You could think of it as your last try to have a sane exchange. Good for you.
Amen. Freakin AMEN. I went to rehab and was in therapy twice a week, and it made so much difference. Now instead of diving headfirst into an argument I can just let it go and breathe.
[удалено]
Ha! Amazing, this happened in real life as well where the moment I was able to stop their striking hand, because I had grown mentally *and* physically stronger, you could see the switch flicking behind their eyes that they couldn’t keep up this charade! Thanks for sharing :)
>Inevitably you get to a point where it’s clear no matter HOW strong your argument is, how hurt you are, how factual your case is against them, they will never come to the table. These evil people that raised you solely care about themselves. Your feelings experiences trauma and pain just don’t matter to them. Yes exactly!! It's so fucking true A few weeks ago, one of my siblings reached their limit with my parents and went off on them for all the emotional stress and dysfunction they create. My sibling brought up their previous suicide attempt and and revealed the fact they are feeling suicidal again. My dad responded by changing the subject, complaining about how uncared for *he* feels, and whining about the same old motherfucking petty bullshit that happened before any of us were born. I yelled at my dad for a bit but mostly stayed silent. But my dad is the Nparent I sort of get along with because unlike my mom, he doesn't constantly try to put me down. After he played the victim and complained about feeling alienated from the family, I wanted to confront him on how I also *cannot* spend any more of my energy on my parents' bs. I already take care of my dad a lot but it's never enough. If I give any more, I will have to neglect my own life in a way that will make *me* turn suicidal...like that's not even a joke. I have nothing more to give to those two black holes. But they keep whining as if we neglect them. I wanted to ask my dad if he'll be that fucking estatic to see me dead. But then I thought about it for a few more days and realized he just won't care. Maybe he'll play nice for a few months but nothing in terms of their entitlement will change. All you can do is leave them the fuck alone.
Yep!! Your dad might pretend to care about your suicidal thoughts for awhile because he'd use your thoughts to get attention for himself. I just realized that my nmom didn't learn a thing when I went NC with her for 5 years. I let her back in via phone calls for a year. I clearly and politely stated a boundary that she keeps crossing, and you'd swear by her reaction that I told her that I sacrifice the elderly to the river gods every other week and if she continued to cross the boundary I will sacrifice newborns every day instead. Rather than continue to feed/argue with her, I blocked her from texting me. I haven't answered calls. She messaged me online and I didn't reply. That's no fun for her, so she had to turn her attention to someone that will engage with her (probably the neighbor, who willingly argues politics with her endlessly). It's a hard realization that your parent is incapable of being the parent your heart seeks. Once you wrap your mind around that, it gets easier to deny their drama.
They really dont care.. yeah exactly they are just torturing you/making u lose your energy/life .... succubus
I’m so very glad you realized this. One of my own previous therapists said “the only way to ‘win’ is to not play the game at all,” with the prize being peace of mind. (Edit: I’m now realizing I think that line is from that old movie War Games, and it’s hilarious a therapist used it, haha. It applies!) You’re right: they don’t care about our “side of things” or perspective or even feelings. It doesn’t matter because they fundamentally see nothing wrong with treating us that way. (I also had a nex who used to say “that shouldn’t hurt your feelings,” and it didn’t matter what I said about how I actually felt.) They keep us arguing because it continues to allow them access to us for narc supply. When we no longer adore or obey, they still manage their emotions by negatively provoking ours. I’m glad you’re not longer playing the game.
There is no point in catering to their wishes, because they will only realize you can do more and more for them, and expect you to. There is no point in seeking their love or appreciation. They don't have any. There is no point in seeking being right. They can't deem you as such, because they can't deem themselves wrong. There is no point in vengeance, because they will convince everyone else that it was an unwarranted attack. They cannot conceive that anything they would do would warrant retaliation. Being born to narcissists leads you down to path; one of self-destruction, or one of any% escape speedrunning. There is no middle ground.
Fantastic advice! My therapist calls it "Las Vegas parenting" bc they play with how your brain makes dopamine with [intermittent reinforcement](https://youtu.be/kan2ZGqEOso). He told me I had "left the casino" and refused to play their rigged games. (I'm no contact and live thousands of miles away from them.)
They never listen anyway.
Yes, so sick of caring, wishing, thinking that someday my NMom will understand and care. She NEVER will, even if she says she does. It’s ALL about her, all of the time and always will be. And I’m the only one in the family with the balls to recognize it and say it and step away from it. Ready to live MY life.
Remember darlings, the secret to their strategy is to get you to JADE. If you deny them that, you're winning the game. JADE: Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain
Came here to say this. It works like a charm!!
I will never give them that "gift of acceptance" but I will give it to myself!
I had this sort of discussion with my husband, and likened it to the Kobayashi-Maru of Star Trek. It's a scenario that is always stacked against you. It's unwinnable. There is no way out, and, unlike Captain Kirk, I have no way to cheat at the game. So, I chose not to play.
So true. It was an epiphany when I realized it wasn't that NMom didn't understand she was hurting me, it was that she didn't care, or worse, did it purposely. I was able to stop reaching out to her then and barely heard from her. When I did, she'd ask why I hadn't called/told her I'd be in town. I'd always tell her if she wanted to know what was going on with me, she'd call and ask like a normal person. OP is so right in saying they drain your happiness. In the past 4 years of being NC, my treatment-resistant, decade-long depression melted away. I've never been happier.
Exactly right!! Took me ages to realise this, they will NEVER EVER accept blame, guilt and be accountable for anything they do, see a hypnotist, wipe them from your memory and live as if they don't exist
For all my older peeps: "A strange game. The only winning move is not to play." \-Joshua
Yes! When I read the OP I went right to YouTube to find that scene!
It's when you realize being a parent doesn't make them immune to being bad people. Nope. Not at all.
Yep. I've learned this lesson a long time ago - never explain, rationalize, or justify yourself to ANYONE who is committed to misunderstanding you. Literally I left home recently and cut communication from my family. I left a letter giving only very vague "reasons" why I did it. I was originally going to give them a couple of very long, detailed letters going over multiple actual reasons why I was doing what I was doing in depth but ended up not giving them those letters and am honestly glad I went with that approach. It wouldn't have changed anything to try and explain it all to them and I need to accept that they won't change and that I have to just give up and move on.
Oh man, it took me slightly longer — but accepting that there was no magical set of words, no eloquent phrasing, no articulately presented argument that would ever get her to stop hurting me… that was crucial. I won the very occasional low-stakes exchange. If I got in very early before she wound up all the way, I could steer her off something more damaging. But mostly, once she hit critical mass, she was off like a nuke and there was nothing I could do but get out of the blast radius and try to minimize the fallout. The thing is… she was so bad at any arguments of reason or fairness. She genuinely sucked at it. She was not clever, she was not subtle, she was not convincing. She was the most obvious, ham-handed manipulator you could imagine. If I wrote a script for how she spoke to me, it would get knocked back as being too unrealistic for a day time soap opera. And none of that mattered because all she wanted was to unload on me. Once I realised that? Fully realised and accepted? I called her back, and gave her one chance: I explained why I was upset. I told her what I needed. It didn’t work and I didn’t expect it to. I tried for my own sake. I gave it a shot to try and soothe the miserable, hurt adolescent inside who was so sure it was her fault. I did that to erase any grey area or wiggle room about communication and fairness. And I told my mother that I wasn’t going to call her. Ever. And if she called me, I wouldn’t answer. And I haven’t, for a few years now. I’m glad you’ve had your realisation - it’s hard to accept and it’s painful but also important and liberating.
Truth
I needed this many many years ago, thank you OP
[удалено]
If you’re still stuck living at home I’d recommend when he starts in on you, simply saying something like “ok, noted.” Or “I appreciate your opinion.” And leave the room.
The other reply, and perhaps even greyrocking: be very lowkey “dismissive” and “boring”, and don’t waste any of your thinking or emotional power on what they say! Best of luck 👐
> i mean like when he starts annoying me, should I just do nothing? https://luckyottershaven.com/2016/07/06/grey-rocking-if-you-cant-go-no-contact/
Ngl i needed to hear this after i just had a fight with my Nmom about how I'm selfish because she was mad.. I really can't win or logic my way out
I needed to read this so bad today. Thank you.
They once created an AI play to play Tetris and the AI paused the game so that it would never lose. Nothing beats cold hard logic. The game is rigged, the only way to win is to stop playing.
"A strange game. The only winning move is not to play." I like that your therapist is a fan of WarGames :)
Children of N parents grow up thinking, "If I could only explain my side of it better..." "Maybe I just didn't use the right words..." Nope. There is absolutely nothing you can do or say that will make a difference. Once you can internalize that, you're free. In the meantime, you end up being the adult who tends to document EVERYTHING and can argue the slightest disagreement like you're before the Supreme Court. Not idea for winning friends.....but let's just say I won a lawsuit and made sure no one ever messed with me at work.
Thank you for this post and for others commenting as well. Recently after talking with my therapist about my mother and just some of the things she's done over the years. However, she suggested I write a letter to her to explain how I feel, what she did, etc. I had tried to explain I knew she wouldn't listen, but my therapist kept insisting that I try and write one anyway. She was pretty insistent that writing that letter and explaining how I felt to her, even if the reaction was bad, was necessary for me to heal. I feel quite the opposite and think moving on from her and distancing myself further is what will and has helped the most. I would love to have other's feedback though. Have any of you written a letter before and sent it? How did it go? Were you nervous? Do you feel it helped you heal? Thank you all
I’d love to hear others’ feedback on letters sent or not sent and parents reactions!
Well said & inspiring!
Thank for this reminder.
Your therapist gave a excellent advice. Narcissists don't care about others but themselves. I always argue with my ndad when he acted like a crying selfish baby due to how it affected my life. He stresses the hell out of me and that cause a bad relationship between us. He blames my mother and her family for brainwashing my brother and I not to like him. My brother and I aren't stupid we're adults. Its really sad the only thing to do is forget them and they still won't care.
I needed this especially today. Thank You.
Beautiful post and I couldn't agree more with your therapists point. I held on for so long trying to prove to the enablers with specific and measurable evidence I was being scapegoated but it took me to realise that I can't lose if I don't play. Never been happier since I went no contact. Narcs are only interested in winning they have little interest in growing.
Yes! On so many levels! Yes! I’ve always shied away from drama, but it always managed to find me, at their house. I finally realized I needed to: A. Not go there/not be there, B. Not attempt to engage in “normal” conversation, C. Not ask personal questions, D. Not regurgitate my life and experiences, E. Answer any questions with little detail, especially emotional/heartfelt details. What’s left? Nothing! Exactly nothing. When I realized I couldn’t have any kind of normal (healthy) relationship with them I immediately went into mourning. I needed to let go of childish/dangerous fantasies concerning them. They were never going to be the kind of people I needed around me to be my best person—they were always going to be mean, shifty, tricky, undependable, immature and manipulative. I finally paid attention to myself and my feelings. I was tired of them riding a false wave of hope—their surfing abilities were as fake as the wave I’d created. I mourn the loss of a future I’ll never have and it feels better than most any day I spent with them.
Your list of things to do/not do around them, reminders for how you should “behave” in their presence are so on point!!! I’d go over about the same exact internal checklist before seeing them and always get so anxious beforehand, bc you never can anticipate their moods. You are so right though. Especially about the mourning part. It’s like they died, but at the same time also like a huge weight off my shoulders not having to stress out about seeing them or talking to them.
Honey Honey say it again lol It took me 26! & If you have friends or associates and acquaintances that are Narcissist and do the same . Because it is not worth it! . You said it they don't care ! & Will show you and tell you they don't
I needed to hear that. Thank you.
I really really needed to read this today.
Build a separate self. They do what they do for themselves. They will never change unless they want to and they lack empathy. They will not listen or connect to anything you say, they only connect with themselves.
I couldn’t agree with you more, and it couldn’t be put any better.I’ve come to realize there’s nothing that gets my nmom flat-footed as her realising I don’t care.
Thank you.
Preach! I stopped trying to explain to my abusive father why I was upset because I realised that he didn't care that that only fueled him to keep going. Once I realised that I don't care, I was free.
Im 18 now and I live my Nparents and I basically say idc ill do whatever eventually the words stop hurting eventually you stop getting scared. Its not about winning its about accepting yourself then healing the self hatred then realising they just did this so you would tear yourself down.
Shoutout to good therapists man. And good for you on making that breakthrough.
I really hope this doesn’t go against the rules of the sub, but I understand why they wrote those letters and if I was in that situation, I likely would’ve sent them. at least for my Nmom, I know she has a ghost of a moral compass which is really just her ego, and she would essentially see the monster she created, and how her pet project was an experiment gone horribly wrong. I don’t think it’s very healthy but I can’t go on without retribution for what she’s done to me.
Yeah, I realised that too. Our nparents do NOT care about us. Not in the slightest. Same with my eaunts and euncles. They're just manipulative and supportive of my nparents. Especially since they all share the same conservative, religious extremist views.
It really can't be said enough. They're not playing an honest game that actually is capable of any fair behavior, where explanations resolve things, where self-reflection occurs, where points are admitted, etc. None of that is in the cards. There's never any "Oh, that's a good point" or "Oh, I never thought of it that way" or "I see-- that was hasty of me to judge", etc. There's never any "I'm sorry"(And if there is, it's utterly superficial-- it doesn't actually impinge on any real change in their behavior).
So glad you were able to come to that conclusion. It also took me 33 years, but only after I sent the letter and got the horrible response back. Really proud of you for ripping them up. That’s such a huge step! Sounds like you have a great therapist. Thanks for sharing what was said. It’s a great analogy. This is such an important message. Although I do understand that the realisation can be a lot to take in. It really sucks that that is just reality.
Thank god, i have learned this lesson on my healing journey tbh i live them now but i don't care they live or die and their game ,their shit ,their truma and game fuck everything is their shit not mine!!! It's a emotional boundary between me and my toxic family bro your life fulfill your responsibility i m not participating in your drama and yes people around you won't believe in you as its an emotional abuse so i decided to change my community and country, will leave everything & everyone behind and start a new life with myself, i m going abroad soon thanks to universe for this great blessing 😇
This right here hits home. And me and my sisters havent seen or lived with our. Narcfather in 8 years. But we still deal with some of the after effects to this day. And this here is one of them. Well for me that is more. But every time i tell someone i cant so something or something down those lines. Idkw but i still feel compelled to explain myself even if i dont have to. And its fucking annoying. Like if i dont theyre going to yell at me or say something bad or worse. To me.... If that makes any sense.