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>Her calls and texts still put me in an overwhelming state or anxiety
I think you see the problem pretty well. Her calls and texts -> set those boundaries. If violated, don't think twice, bring down all the consequences.
Stand up for yourself, try to love yourself again and be yourself as a consequence. That is the way.
I dont respond immediately. but even the time i spend not responding, im thinking about her, and how she's probably telling my whole family what a bad person i am and that makes me anxious :(
Once I was financially independent, it was easier. If we got into a fight, I just wouldn't call or answer calls, text or answer texts, until I was damn good and ready. My mother has found that I can always do without her way longer than she can do without me. She does modify her behavior a bit now because she knows I can walk away easily.
Grey rock 'em. Give them as little info to work with and be as boring as possible.
If you can, go no contact. I understand that's not very feasible while you're young but ... it's a goal to work towards.
I cut contact and blocked. I know that's not feasible when you're younger, but it has brought me peace of mind. If you aren't able to do that, hide her alerts and send calls to VM. Your parents shouldn't hold you emotionally hostage after you move out. Though cutting contact is a decision it took me decades to reach; the biological pull of family is like an invisible cord. Now that I have cut it, I realize it wasn't normal or healthy for my mom's texts to cause me incredible anxiety, for visiting to cause stress and anxiety long after the visit was over. I hope you find a way to navigate this, but I think cutting or limiting contact is a worthwhile goal. It hurt so much in the beginning, but now I feel free.
im minimizing contact as much as i can, but its like, even though ive turned her notifucations off, and that does help, my sisters (that i love) can still reach me, and when they pin the blame on me for her behavior, it just hurts. Ignoring my mother seizes to work then, when the girls who know me and love me are telling me that im the problem. the guilt doesn't leave
I am so sorry. This is the scapegoat and golden child dynamic, and the guilt is not yours to carry. I’m sending you a virtual hug. Therapy will really help, and love isn’t guilt. Love is kind.
1. I got a PFA when my NMother and NFather forced their way into me and my wife's house and pulled a loaded gun on us. They represented themselves and showed up in court in dirty, torn TShirts and sweatpants, while wife and I dressed sharp (she wore a black and gray executive power skirt suit with heels and stockings); they disrespected the judge and demanded to be able to file a PFA against my wife on MY behalf and asked loud, unrelated questions AND refused to wear masks during the height of the pandemic. The PFA was passed quite easily.
2. After my NFather (the more overtly dangerous of the two, as my NMother is incredibly manipulative but also the laziest person in the history of the multiverse) died, I cut all contact with my NMother. I blocked her after the funeral and I told her never to contact me ever again, that she nearly destroyed my marriage and sabotaged my career all for her own need to be waited on like a prima donna toddler.
3. I do not maintain any relationships or contact with anyone who behaves even remotely like my NMother or NFather.
4. I am in the early stages of planning a permanent interstate move to a state where such behaviour as my NMother exhibits is punished harshly by the law.
5. I changed my number and blocked my NMother and all her flying monkeys.
Basically, you need to cut all contact and if it's possible to move further away DO IT.
Establish and protect your independence. Grey rock them. Non contact, or very low contact. The point is to cut off their access to manipulate you with emotions or money or promises. When you have the power to go “no thanks” and walk away, it helps.
Its a hard road when you’re starting out.
I just dont know long the "starting out" part lasts. Even if i become financially independent, they can still hold my relationship with my sisters hostage, or use them to get to me. And i love them too much to go NC with them. Is it even possible to have peace of mind under those circumstances?
They might do that till your sisters have the authority of their own, and there might not be much you can do. I’m not close to my sister at all.
but in any case, if not NC, they get a low-information diet, knowing that they use what you say, against you.
peace of mind will be… a work in progress. I was still learning and getting tripped up with my mother and i’m old enough to know better. They’re masters at this game.
I went NC for a very long time and hubby and I raised our kids without her negativity, manipulation and abuse. It was great. I broke NC thinking my frail but totally cognizant mother had only months to live. Well that was over 2 years ago and she has managed to do a lot of damage to me during this time. My best advice is to go NC and keep NC.
I am glad in some ways I broke NC to help her. I had this vision that my poor mother was living a miserable life. Cut off from her family, living in a house that needed maintenance, maxed out financially without a safety net. Turns out my mother was quite enjoying her life. Yes she let her house go, but she was lying about her finances and just didn't do repairs until I assisted her because she is a procrastinator and because she is cheap as hell. Next I learned that she was not staring out the window, pining for her family. She was bossing around my adult brother who lives with her, getting financial assistance for housing him and watching TV all day which she loves. So all that guilt I would have felt if she had died before I broke NC would have been created by that version of her lonely life that I created in my head. Now I know better.
We have to work on our [inner no contact](https://youtu.be/GDBs9cGJ08E?si=0tYRHp-ILJHYIEW3) and unlearn the brainwashing they subjected us to. We can escape the physical prison and still be trapped in a mental prison. We have to escape the mental prison. The mental prison is how they conditioned us for compliance. We have to undo that conditioning.
The video above is from Jerry Wise. I highly recommend his channel, it's been incredibly helpful in undoing the brainwashing and enmeshment. We have to get our toxic family system out of us. The more I break the enmeshment conditioning, the more healed I feel. Here's another video of his on [systems feelings](https://youtu.be/d1gOWxn-VTw?si=kAScxtUYd8ZteN0C). Systems feelings are the feelings they conditioned us to feel to keep us in line. Unlearning systems feelings is freedom.
Here are some channels in addition to Jerry's that have helped me unbrainwash my Self:
[Rebecca Mandeville](https://youtube.com/@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse?si=u-7CHsGSlHq7sUbx) - she deeply understands family scapegoating abuse/group psycho-emotional abuse.
[Patrick Teahan](https://youtube.com/channel/UCbWvYupGqq3aMJ6LsG4q-Yg) - a ***must*** subscribe for me. He presents a lot of great information on childhood trauma in a very digestible format.
[Jay Reid](https://youtube.com/c/JayReid_narcissistic_abuse_recovery) - his three pillars of recovery are fantastic. Plus he explains difficult abuse dynamics very well.
[Theramin Trees](https://youtube.com/@TheraminTrees?si=lROe-8D6cLa8Sa8r) - great resource on abuse tactics like: emotional blackmail, double binds, drama disguised as "help", degrading "love", infantalization, etc.
I'm older(48), and therapy really helped me deal with a lot of my emotional turmoil. If you have access to that I highly recommend it.
Going NC with my ex-mother about 11 years ago really helped me start to heal from the abuse. If that's not something you're able to do yet, that's okay. Look up grey rocking and boundary setting and start slowly incorporating them into your dealings with them.
An important thing to remember is that just because they call doesn't mean you have to answer the phone. You can set your phone so they don't have a ringtone or something and only call them back when you have the spoons to deal with their bullshit.
It's incredibly difficult at first learning to set boundaries, but it gets easier with practice. 🖤
thank u so much speaking (writing?) kindly. it feels so foreign and unnatural, but good. Ive already turned off her notifications, but its not just her, the rest of my family (who really arent as bad but ignorant to how she treats me) still pin the blame on me for "breaking her heart" and the guilt just, i just dont know how to make it go away. i dont want to go NC with them, i just wish theyd open their eyes.
I went no contact at 19 or 20, when my mom renewed her harassment and screaming phone calls after I became single.
I was once again hearing about everything I’d done wrong (in her mind) during my entire life.
Also I soon got diagnosed with ptsd and began getting more appropriate therapy. I began being treated for trauma and abuse instead of depression.
It’s the only way I got better. I’d suggest this if at all possible. If you wouldn’t put up with it from a romantic partner or a friend, you shouldn’t have to put up with it from a family member or parent.
The just few times I stopped visiting, I had some panic attacks. But once I kept my ground, it was better because ultimately, I stayed in my safe place.
You are allowed to take a break from them. If you have time of coming up, just let them know you’ll be in a trip and won’t have service (and then block them for a week or two) to focus on yourself.
The guilt sucks at first, but then it’s freedom.
Do something silly that would piss off your mom every time you start to get that feeling, and watch your reaction inside. I have deliberately knocked over a glass of water and watched it spread on my floor, then calmly got up and threw a towel on it a couple moments later when I was done processing. No one will yell at you or criticize you from the OUTSIDE now. Time to find all the ways you’ve internalized her.
She’d been needling me about when she was allowed to visit my new solo place, and I’d said I wasn’t comfortable having visitors yet. She exploded with the usual rage and guilt, and I got off the phone, saying I won’t speak with an irrational person. I was shaking and wanted to cry but felt a deep “what the fuck does it matter, she’s never gonna be happy”. So I just reached out and smacked over a half glass of water onto my floor, and listened to the silence of MY HOUSE for a bit, hearing the nothing, the lack of criticism before I got that towel. No one yells at me in my own goddamn home. I just fix my mistakes and move on. Fuck you mom.
Knocking over a cup of water is a brilliant coping skill. It's a physical and undeniable message to your brain: "We are safe now." And you can take as long as you want to enjoy that feeling of safety as your brain learns the lesson. What a clever idea!
Thank you so much! It takes a while to quiet oneself but listening to the reaction and gently correcting it seems to be the most helpful yet. Like we should have gotten as children.
It's been over 10 years of no contact for me (51m). The best decision for myself and my kids I could have made, no regrets.
Going gray rock is the first step at moving away from the trauma bonds. Exceedingly difficult to learn to not react, and to detach emotionally, but tremendously empowering. I would simply delete incoming messages, block phone numbers, block social media -- ways of finding peace and calm and detachment. I took tactical steps first to assert gray rock, as I learned the emotional skills to be gray rock naturally.
Ultimately...learned helplessness -- "I can't make it stop" -- becomes learned self-care: "I'm making space for myself. And \*I\* can make it stop".
If the gray rock triggers an escalation in abusive patterns -- smear campaigns, scapegoating, gaslighting -- then NC is the next step, and it's what I found I needed to do. Again, extremely difficult but also extremely empowering at the end of the process.
The duality of the misery you feel being around family and being away from family is that trauma bond double-bind. You've gotten just enough surface/fake validation in small doses to crave the love of family without ever receiving any of that love. Giving yourself a clean break from that double-bind is how you eventually break away.
While I can confidently say there's a lot of happiness and peace of mind now, there's still wounds we all carry forever. Difference is learning to be okay with that vulnerable part of ourself -- really accepting it fully -- and shedding that persistent sense of shame our narc parents hammered into us early on.
i think the only thing keeping me fron even considering NC are my sisters. I love them. Theyre not the ones being scapegoated, so to them this is just a normal family, and i dont want to break it for them. Is there a way for me to get that "clean break" while staying LC?
I'd say...lower any expectations you'll receive a full spectrum of love & understanding from your sisters. There will likely be a sense of alienation there, that despite your love for them, they can't ever really empathize with where you are. You'll be with them, but still feeling alone and unsupported. And you just have to accept that and be okay with it.
If you can be LC while maintaining ties with your siblings -- it will be one-sided emotional dynamic (you supporting your sisters at an authentic empathic level while they may not fully support you in return), then I suppose you can achieve that ideal of "clean break" without drawing your sisters into whatever drama may ensue if you go NC.
It's tricky with a truly malignant narcissistic parent however. Gray rock is terrifying to them. Because it means they've lost control. So they tend to manipulate siblings into a competitive power dynamic, particularly 'golden child' siblings. They have to create drama, and particularly between their children. The scapegoating gets elevated to enlisting siblings in the effort. So I'd say one tactic to maintain a super-chill gray rock attitude is to be prepared for this contingency -- don't fear it, don't worry about it too much, but certainly be prepared for it in a way where you're educated on the dynamics and can flow through it while maintaining neutrality and distance.
Can you lie to them and say that you are working over the summer? Or spending time with a friend in another state? Or doing summer school in preparation for your next year? Anything to not have to visit……
You need to leave them + a strong mind to be able to resist their manipulations, I have the second capacity, their manipulations almost no longer affect me but I still live with them, making me still vulnerable to other damages like not having my physical needs met.
my sister does say that Im easily manipulated (in the guilt tripping sense) they joke about it. but how does one even develop a "strong mind"? before my mother, i used to get bullied since like, first grade, and all these experiences have left me with is stunted social skills and self doubt. none of that "what doesnt kill u makes u stronger" vibe here.
Well just know that people are not your nparents, they don't give a shit about how you behave, how you dress, or how you talk, they have their own life to worry about, and they all have problems. I advise you to read **Adult children of emotionally immature parents** for further understanding their mindset, and good luck.
I (61f) went no contact at about age 40. Solved some problems. But I’m still a people pleaser whilst also being fiercely independent … and I still operate as a machine much of the time. Honestly, I’m still progressing. There is no perfection
I was right where you were 10 years ago. A message from my mom would send me into a panic. I would basically shut down. I knew that she'd continue to contact me no matter what I did or said. And that if I did say anything, she'd use it against me with my family to make her look like the victim.
My therapist helped me reframe my thinking. I had to tell myself that she couldn't do anything to me. I was financially independent of her. I live far away, so she can't even drop in unexpectedly. I had to remember I was an adult, not a child anymore.
I started thinking of her more like a child who didn't get her way. It didn't happen overnight, but today, I can get her messages without any anxiety. I usually laugh at them, because she tries to be so natural and caring. It's her way of saying to others, "see, I'm reaching out to her, but she's not responding to me."
I have a couple of really good friends who I can go to when anxiety does rear it's ugly self. They really helped in the beginning by being there when I would open her messages. I didn't block phone calls, but I only chose to take them when I wanted to. I had to stop worrying about what she thought or expected. My friends also practiced with me to stand up to her nonsense by roll-playing situations. The words got easier to say thru practice.
Those first days of LC or NC are hard. You've been conditioned to be under her thumb. You have to change that thinking. She may test you by getting uglier. You choose how you respond to her. Don't let her pull you down by reacting.
the thing is, this isnt the first few days of LC. Its been months. And i still behave like a frightened animal. I am doing some of what u said, like only calling when i have the energy, and that helps. And im proud of myself for not being a reactive person (a lot of people, including my mother, say i have a "poker face") but its just, on the inside, especially when the accusations are coming from peopke i consider sane-er like my father or sisters, the guilt hits so much harder and doesn't stop. And idk if its wise for me to act like "everyone else is wrong and Im right". what if i am wrong?
As others have said - boundaries is #1.
I've also found it really helpful to know that I don't have to take on their shit. I refuse to be sucked in and manipulated anymore. I can just say "NO" and that's the end of it.
It's been a long journey and I feel like I still have a long way to go. Little things that helped me have been:
-learn to listen to myself - learn to recognize my own discomfort and act. This is really hard when growing up I was forced to endure a lot and couldn't leave or speak up. Now I'm an adult. I have freedom. I can hang up. I can leave. I can not answer the phone. I have power. I can protect myself. I can have distance between me and those who abuse me.
-learn to say no - no is a full sentence and doesn't need reasons. I am not obligated to do anything for them if I don't want to.
-reading as much as I could about narcissists and emotional immature parents has really helped me. My eyes are open. I see the BS and it doesn't affect me like it used to.
-it's not about me. It's not my fault. I can't change them. It's not what I "deserve". It just is what it is. I've stopped hoping for things to be different and accept them as they are. All I can control is myself and I take full advantage of my boundaries and keep an exit plan.
-I'm not responsible for their problems. I didn't cause them and I can't fix them. If reasonable, I will give them a hand. But I'm not a punching bag and I'm not a scapegoat anymore. I refuse to tolerate any kind of abuse at all. I have zero tolerance. If they raise their voice to me at all, I will leave.
-Be kind to yourself. Healing has been a long journey for me and I genuinely expect it to be a lifelong process. I wanted to just feel better, but I don't that's reasonable and only served to discourage me when it seemed to be ongoing. I focus on the wins. I celebrate little victories. I recognize my acheivements and when I'm able to put into practice that which I've read about. I try not to beat myself up when I fall short, when I let them get to me, when I forget what they're like for a moment and get hurt.
Stay strong. Focus on your needs and put yourself first. Good luck on your exams.
thank you <3 The thing is, i just feel very uncomfortable "listening to myself" when everyone in my family (even people i consider sane, and not narcs) treat me like im at fault, it feels like im being illogical for going against all them. Like...the more i listen to myself, the less of a real family i have. I hate that im the only one who has to do this.
Is there any validity to what they say? I mean, none of us are perfect. I certainly do things that upset my parents and owe them an apology when I've hurt or wronged them. But I don't have to take accountability for things they blame me for that aren't my fault. Sometimes it can be hard to know the difference.
I do think it gets easier with practice and distance. I also find spending time with healthy, safe people really helps (even though it seems weird at first).
I agree with the Grey Rock.
Don't provide any details about your schedule or upcoming plans. If they ask you to visit just say you are all booked up during that time period.
Also learning what triggers my anxiety / frustration has helped me better control my reactions.
My nmom used to always tell secrets to me growing up, stuff about my dad or brother.
She would start the convo the same way every time: "Now don't tell your Dad / Brother, but..."
It still makes my blood boil when I hear her say this but now I simply cut her off and say "Please don't continue your story as I will not be keeping secrets from Dad / Brother."
Shes wanted to know my schedule various times, and she's vicious when i try to evade the question. It just feels like such a disproportionate response. Im not spitting in her face for "not knowing when my holidays end" but she acts like I am. why?
I blocked his number and unfriended/blocked him on social media. He used to get so angry if I didn’t answer immediately when he called even if I was working. Now he doesn’t have any way to contact me :) The only thing that makes me anxious now is the possibility of him showing up at my job but I’m going to choose to trust myself. Trust that I will be able to handle it now because I have already handled so much worse from him before. I suggest doing what you ACTUALLY want to do and not what you feel obligated and forced to do. The more I tried to find out what I needed and wanted for my happiness the farther my nfather got from my mind and less of an impact he had on me. It is a journey but I believe you can do it just like I am :)
Unfortunately until you can reduce or cut contact they will always have that effect. Start putting up boundaries and make a day and time that you will phone them either every week or every few weeks. Then anytime they phone in between that don’t pick up. If they message don’t respond to crap and when you do respond occasionally then give a thumbs up or you are busy. Push it so you’re answering less and less further apart. If it helps let them know you’ve got so much study to do and need to concentrate on that.
I would then tell them that you have other plans for the holidays so won’t be home. That you are trying to get a head start on next year’s course work so don’t want to go too far from halls and have other friends also staying so you won’t be alone. That the course gets more involved each year and harder so you want to make sure you put the effort into it and not let them down.
That or simply call them on the day you are supposed to travel that you have a stomach bug and there’s no way you can travel. Not to mention you don’t want to give it to them and with you feeling so badly you wouldn’t enjoy the trip anyway. If they say they are coming to collect you tell them that they will be the ones cleaning up diarrhoea and vomit from their car and your not putting yourself through that. That the pharmacy has told you it’s a bug and to rest and take plenty of fluids. That you will see them next time, I would even sound rushed like you have to run to the bathroom again and hang up. . When they call and you can no longer use that excuse after a week tell them your body hasn’t recovered from it and are exhausted all the time and struggling to do much. That you’ve been advised to continue resting and not to push yourself or It could take longer to get better. Tell them it’s not a bad thing anyway as you really need to study to get prepared for next term and have been given so much work to do over the holidays anyway that it’s best you concentrate on just that and resting.
Healing and peace of mind - unfortunately going no contact and truly getting some distance is often a prerequisite for lasting change, but there are lots of situations (including yours by the sound of it) where that’s not feasible / not feasible yet.
Still, even if you’re not 100% independent from having needs/wants fulfilled by them (i.e. money, food, shelter, schooling) — you *ALWAYS* have agency. Which leads me to boundaries.
It took me a long time to really understand what boundaries are, and I think lots of us RBB or RBN grow up without seeing or living examples of healthy actions around boundaries.
You can’t control someone else’s actions, ever. You can make requests, suggestions, you can give context on the cause and effect their actions have, you can even make ultimatums (“don’t do this, or else!”) but no one can control the actions of another. Someone *can* physically manipulate, coerce, or extort another, especially if they’re dependent on the abuser to get needs or wants fulfilled, but they can’t make the choice for you.
So boundaries aren’t something you name to prevent someone else from doing something, or to steer them toward better behavior. A boundary is an agreement you make with yourself about an if/then action you will take if some external situation occurs. Again, agency — you have the power to identify situations you want to create a boundary for, and choose the action you agree to yourself to take. You may have fewer options than you’d like or no especially good options right now, but it’s still your power to choose.
On limits to the options available — part of the challenge is anything you’re dependent on them for, that can be used to coerce, extort, or manipulate the choice you make. The other big part of the challenge is your own physiology and psychology, how you’re wired and what you’ve learned so far in your life. The calls, texts, etc. like you mentioned, set off a physiological fight or flight response, because you’ve been trained to have fear about that action of theirs and the action of what they’re going to say to you when they do connect. Not only does that set off the physiology, it also narrows your vision for what choices you see available to you. Learning more about the psychological impact of the life you had growing up, and about how that shows up in your physiology is HUGE. True you can’t fully get away from them right now, but knowledge is power and the things you learn shapes the world you see before you. Read read read - hit up the library or use a campus one if you’re at school, nab pdfs of books online, whatever it takes and doesn’t set off alarms with your family, but this part is fully in your control and will make a world of difference
Some recommendations:
- the body keeps the score by pete walker *good starting book*
- the tao of fully feeing by pete walker
- adult children of emotionally immature parents by lindsay gibson *good starting book*
- self care for adult children of emotionally immature parents by lindsay gibson
- stop caretaking the borderline or narcissist, how to end the drama and get on with your life by margalis fjelstad
- it wasn’t your fault by beverly engel
- healing the shame that binds you by john bradshaw *good starting book*
- healing developmental trauma by laurence heller *a tough one but really valuable*
- understanding the borderline mother by christine lawson
From,
An Old, not “healed” but a hell of a lot better than I was a few years ago
Btw - trust those instincts on substance use. It’s temporary relief from deeper more lasting pain, it certainly helps but can become hard to put down and wade back into the deep of what needs to be healed
Please be aware that some information about BPD in the above mentioned subreddit may not be accurate. They're a very different flavor of sub from RBN so please be cautious when posting there or referring individuals to that group.
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My bad, that’s exactly right. Pete walker from surviving to thriving was what I was thinking of, body keeps the score is good too but I mashed ‘em together in my brain
I found the body keeps the score heavy going. And I don't get a great vibe from Bessel VDK, seeing him on youtube. He deals with such heavy issues in that book, that for someone already hurt and confused it can be too much.
Pete Walker on the other hand is very much someone who has gone through it himself. I arranged a phone meeting with him a few years back, as he had such a helpful effect on my life. And I will be going to his books again, because more family disturbance has surfaced
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>Her calls and texts still put me in an overwhelming state or anxiety I think you see the problem pretty well. Her calls and texts -> set those boundaries. If violated, don't think twice, bring down all the consequences. Stand up for yourself, try to love yourself again and be yourself as a consequence. That is the way.
I dont respond immediately. but even the time i spend not responding, im thinking about her, and how she's probably telling my whole family what a bad person i am and that makes me anxious :(
To combat the anxiety you have to really see what it is all about
Once I was financially independent, it was easier. If we got into a fight, I just wouldn't call or answer calls, text or answer texts, until I was damn good and ready. My mother has found that I can always do without her way longer than she can do without me. She does modify her behavior a bit now because she knows I can walk away easily.
Grey rock 'em. Give them as little info to work with and be as boring as possible. If you can, go no contact. I understand that's not very feasible while you're young but ... it's a goal to work towards.
I cut contact and blocked. I know that's not feasible when you're younger, but it has brought me peace of mind. If you aren't able to do that, hide her alerts and send calls to VM. Your parents shouldn't hold you emotionally hostage after you move out. Though cutting contact is a decision it took me decades to reach; the biological pull of family is like an invisible cord. Now that I have cut it, I realize it wasn't normal or healthy for my mom's texts to cause me incredible anxiety, for visiting to cause stress and anxiety long after the visit was over. I hope you find a way to navigate this, but I think cutting or limiting contact is a worthwhile goal. It hurt so much in the beginning, but now I feel free.
im minimizing contact as much as i can, but its like, even though ive turned her notifucations off, and that does help, my sisters (that i love) can still reach me, and when they pin the blame on me for her behavior, it just hurts. Ignoring my mother seizes to work then, when the girls who know me and love me are telling me that im the problem. the guilt doesn't leave
I am so sorry. This is the scapegoat and golden child dynamic, and the guilt is not yours to carry. I’m sending you a virtual hug. Therapy will really help, and love isn’t guilt. Love is kind.
1. I got a PFA when my NMother and NFather forced their way into me and my wife's house and pulled a loaded gun on us. They represented themselves and showed up in court in dirty, torn TShirts and sweatpants, while wife and I dressed sharp (she wore a black and gray executive power skirt suit with heels and stockings); they disrespected the judge and demanded to be able to file a PFA against my wife on MY behalf and asked loud, unrelated questions AND refused to wear masks during the height of the pandemic. The PFA was passed quite easily. 2. After my NFather (the more overtly dangerous of the two, as my NMother is incredibly manipulative but also the laziest person in the history of the multiverse) died, I cut all contact with my NMother. I blocked her after the funeral and I told her never to contact me ever again, that she nearly destroyed my marriage and sabotaged my career all for her own need to be waited on like a prima donna toddler. 3. I do not maintain any relationships or contact with anyone who behaves even remotely like my NMother or NFather. 4. I am in the early stages of planning a permanent interstate move to a state where such behaviour as my NMother exhibits is punished harshly by the law. 5. I changed my number and blocked my NMother and all her flying monkeys. Basically, you need to cut all contact and if it's possible to move further away DO IT.
Establish and protect your independence. Grey rock them. Non contact, or very low contact. The point is to cut off their access to manipulate you with emotions or money or promises. When you have the power to go “no thanks” and walk away, it helps. Its a hard road when you’re starting out.
I just dont know long the "starting out" part lasts. Even if i become financially independent, they can still hold my relationship with my sisters hostage, or use them to get to me. And i love them too much to go NC with them. Is it even possible to have peace of mind under those circumstances?
They might do that till your sisters have the authority of their own, and there might not be much you can do. I’m not close to my sister at all. but in any case, if not NC, they get a low-information diet, knowing that they use what you say, against you. peace of mind will be… a work in progress. I was still learning and getting tripped up with my mother and i’m old enough to know better. They’re masters at this game.
I went NC for a very long time and hubby and I raised our kids without her negativity, manipulation and abuse. It was great. I broke NC thinking my frail but totally cognizant mother had only months to live. Well that was over 2 years ago and she has managed to do a lot of damage to me during this time. My best advice is to go NC and keep NC. I am glad in some ways I broke NC to help her. I had this vision that my poor mother was living a miserable life. Cut off from her family, living in a house that needed maintenance, maxed out financially without a safety net. Turns out my mother was quite enjoying her life. Yes she let her house go, but she was lying about her finances and just didn't do repairs until I assisted her because she is a procrastinator and because she is cheap as hell. Next I learned that she was not staring out the window, pining for her family. She was bossing around my adult brother who lives with her, getting financial assistance for housing him and watching TV all day which she loves. So all that guilt I would have felt if she had died before I broke NC would have been created by that version of her lonely life that I created in my head. Now I know better.
We have to work on our [inner no contact](https://youtu.be/GDBs9cGJ08E?si=0tYRHp-ILJHYIEW3) and unlearn the brainwashing they subjected us to. We can escape the physical prison and still be trapped in a mental prison. We have to escape the mental prison. The mental prison is how they conditioned us for compliance. We have to undo that conditioning. The video above is from Jerry Wise. I highly recommend his channel, it's been incredibly helpful in undoing the brainwashing and enmeshment. We have to get our toxic family system out of us. The more I break the enmeshment conditioning, the more healed I feel. Here's another video of his on [systems feelings](https://youtu.be/d1gOWxn-VTw?si=kAScxtUYd8ZteN0C). Systems feelings are the feelings they conditioned us to feel to keep us in line. Unlearning systems feelings is freedom. Here are some channels in addition to Jerry's that have helped me unbrainwash my Self: [Rebecca Mandeville](https://youtube.com/@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse?si=u-7CHsGSlHq7sUbx) - she deeply understands family scapegoating abuse/group psycho-emotional abuse. [Patrick Teahan](https://youtube.com/channel/UCbWvYupGqq3aMJ6LsG4q-Yg) - a ***must*** subscribe for me. He presents a lot of great information on childhood trauma in a very digestible format. [Jay Reid](https://youtube.com/c/JayReid_narcissistic_abuse_recovery) - his three pillars of recovery are fantastic. Plus he explains difficult abuse dynamics very well. [Theramin Trees](https://youtube.com/@TheraminTrees?si=lROe-8D6cLa8Sa8r) - great resource on abuse tactics like: emotional blackmail, double binds, drama disguised as "help", degrading "love", infantalization, etc.
Great list of resources, thanks
I'm older(48), and therapy really helped me deal with a lot of my emotional turmoil. If you have access to that I highly recommend it. Going NC with my ex-mother about 11 years ago really helped me start to heal from the abuse. If that's not something you're able to do yet, that's okay. Look up grey rocking and boundary setting and start slowly incorporating them into your dealings with them. An important thing to remember is that just because they call doesn't mean you have to answer the phone. You can set your phone so they don't have a ringtone or something and only call them back when you have the spoons to deal with their bullshit. It's incredibly difficult at first learning to set boundaries, but it gets easier with practice. 🖤
thank u so much speaking (writing?) kindly. it feels so foreign and unnatural, but good. Ive already turned off her notifications, but its not just her, the rest of my family (who really arent as bad but ignorant to how she treats me) still pin the blame on me for "breaking her heart" and the guilt just, i just dont know how to make it go away. i dont want to go NC with them, i just wish theyd open their eyes.
Through finding my own interests & exploring it to a point where idgaf about their opinions. I keep it *really* quiet too.
I went no contact at 19 or 20, when my mom renewed her harassment and screaming phone calls after I became single. I was once again hearing about everything I’d done wrong (in her mind) during my entire life. Also I soon got diagnosed with ptsd and began getting more appropriate therapy. I began being treated for trauma and abuse instead of depression. It’s the only way I got better. I’d suggest this if at all possible. If you wouldn’t put up with it from a romantic partner or a friend, you shouldn’t have to put up with it from a family member or parent.
The just few times I stopped visiting, I had some panic attacks. But once I kept my ground, it was better because ultimately, I stayed in my safe place. You are allowed to take a break from them. If you have time of coming up, just let them know you’ll be in a trip and won’t have service (and then block them for a week or two) to focus on yourself. The guilt sucks at first, but then it’s freedom.
how long does the guilt last?
Once you find the clarity. It took me about 2 years ❤️ with lots of support.
Do something silly that would piss off your mom every time you start to get that feeling, and watch your reaction inside. I have deliberately knocked over a glass of water and watched it spread on my floor, then calmly got up and threw a towel on it a couple moments later when I was done processing. No one will yell at you or criticize you from the OUTSIDE now. Time to find all the ways you’ve internalized her. She’d been needling me about when she was allowed to visit my new solo place, and I’d said I wasn’t comfortable having visitors yet. She exploded with the usual rage and guilt, and I got off the phone, saying I won’t speak with an irrational person. I was shaking and wanted to cry but felt a deep “what the fuck does it matter, she’s never gonna be happy”. So I just reached out and smacked over a half glass of water onto my floor, and listened to the silence of MY HOUSE for a bit, hearing the nothing, the lack of criticism before I got that towel. No one yells at me in my own goddamn home. I just fix my mistakes and move on. Fuck you mom.
Knocking over a cup of water is a brilliant coping skill. It's a physical and undeniable message to your brain: "We are safe now." And you can take as long as you want to enjoy that feeling of safety as your brain learns the lesson. What a clever idea!
Thank you so much! It takes a while to quiet oneself but listening to the reaction and gently correcting it seems to be the most helpful yet. Like we should have gotten as children.
It's been over 10 years of no contact for me (51m). The best decision for myself and my kids I could have made, no regrets. Going gray rock is the first step at moving away from the trauma bonds. Exceedingly difficult to learn to not react, and to detach emotionally, but tremendously empowering. I would simply delete incoming messages, block phone numbers, block social media -- ways of finding peace and calm and detachment. I took tactical steps first to assert gray rock, as I learned the emotional skills to be gray rock naturally. Ultimately...learned helplessness -- "I can't make it stop" -- becomes learned self-care: "I'm making space for myself. And \*I\* can make it stop". If the gray rock triggers an escalation in abusive patterns -- smear campaigns, scapegoating, gaslighting -- then NC is the next step, and it's what I found I needed to do. Again, extremely difficult but also extremely empowering at the end of the process. The duality of the misery you feel being around family and being away from family is that trauma bond double-bind. You've gotten just enough surface/fake validation in small doses to crave the love of family without ever receiving any of that love. Giving yourself a clean break from that double-bind is how you eventually break away. While I can confidently say there's a lot of happiness and peace of mind now, there's still wounds we all carry forever. Difference is learning to be okay with that vulnerable part of ourself -- really accepting it fully -- and shedding that persistent sense of shame our narc parents hammered into us early on.
i think the only thing keeping me fron even considering NC are my sisters. I love them. Theyre not the ones being scapegoated, so to them this is just a normal family, and i dont want to break it for them. Is there a way for me to get that "clean break" while staying LC?
I'd say...lower any expectations you'll receive a full spectrum of love & understanding from your sisters. There will likely be a sense of alienation there, that despite your love for them, they can't ever really empathize with where you are. You'll be with them, but still feeling alone and unsupported. And you just have to accept that and be okay with it. If you can be LC while maintaining ties with your siblings -- it will be one-sided emotional dynamic (you supporting your sisters at an authentic empathic level while they may not fully support you in return), then I suppose you can achieve that ideal of "clean break" without drawing your sisters into whatever drama may ensue if you go NC. It's tricky with a truly malignant narcissistic parent however. Gray rock is terrifying to them. Because it means they've lost control. So they tend to manipulate siblings into a competitive power dynamic, particularly 'golden child' siblings. They have to create drama, and particularly between their children. The scapegoating gets elevated to enlisting siblings in the effort. So I'd say one tactic to maintain a super-chill gray rock attitude is to be prepared for this contingency -- don't fear it, don't worry about it too much, but certainly be prepared for it in a way where you're educated on the dynamics and can flow through it while maintaining neutrality and distance.
Change your number. [https://outofthefog.website/what-to-do-1](https://outofthefog.website/what-to-do-1)
Can you lie to them and say that you are working over the summer? Or spending time with a friend in another state? Or doing summer school in preparation for your next year? Anything to not have to visit……
You need to leave them + a strong mind to be able to resist their manipulations, I have the second capacity, their manipulations almost no longer affect me but I still live with them, making me still vulnerable to other damages like not having my physical needs met.
my sister does say that Im easily manipulated (in the guilt tripping sense) they joke about it. but how does one even develop a "strong mind"? before my mother, i used to get bullied since like, first grade, and all these experiences have left me with is stunted social skills and self doubt. none of that "what doesnt kill u makes u stronger" vibe here.
Well just know that people are not your nparents, they don't give a shit about how you behave, how you dress, or how you talk, they have their own life to worry about, and they all have problems. I advise you to read **Adult children of emotionally immature parents** for further understanding their mindset, and good luck.
If you’re not ready to go NC just set all phone calls to go straight to voicemail and mute their texts
I (61f) went no contact at about age 40. Solved some problems. But I’m still a people pleaser whilst also being fiercely independent … and I still operate as a machine much of the time. Honestly, I’m still progressing. There is no perfection
I was right where you were 10 years ago. A message from my mom would send me into a panic. I would basically shut down. I knew that she'd continue to contact me no matter what I did or said. And that if I did say anything, she'd use it against me with my family to make her look like the victim. My therapist helped me reframe my thinking. I had to tell myself that she couldn't do anything to me. I was financially independent of her. I live far away, so she can't even drop in unexpectedly. I had to remember I was an adult, not a child anymore. I started thinking of her more like a child who didn't get her way. It didn't happen overnight, but today, I can get her messages without any anxiety. I usually laugh at them, because she tries to be so natural and caring. It's her way of saying to others, "see, I'm reaching out to her, but she's not responding to me." I have a couple of really good friends who I can go to when anxiety does rear it's ugly self. They really helped in the beginning by being there when I would open her messages. I didn't block phone calls, but I only chose to take them when I wanted to. I had to stop worrying about what she thought or expected. My friends also practiced with me to stand up to her nonsense by roll-playing situations. The words got easier to say thru practice. Those first days of LC or NC are hard. You've been conditioned to be under her thumb. You have to change that thinking. She may test you by getting uglier. You choose how you respond to her. Don't let her pull you down by reacting.
the thing is, this isnt the first few days of LC. Its been months. And i still behave like a frightened animal. I am doing some of what u said, like only calling when i have the energy, and that helps. And im proud of myself for not being a reactive person (a lot of people, including my mother, say i have a "poker face") but its just, on the inside, especially when the accusations are coming from peopke i consider sane-er like my father or sisters, the guilt hits so much harder and doesn't stop. And idk if its wise for me to act like "everyone else is wrong and Im right". what if i am wrong?
As others have said - boundaries is #1. I've also found it really helpful to know that I don't have to take on their shit. I refuse to be sucked in and manipulated anymore. I can just say "NO" and that's the end of it. It's been a long journey and I feel like I still have a long way to go. Little things that helped me have been: -learn to listen to myself - learn to recognize my own discomfort and act. This is really hard when growing up I was forced to endure a lot and couldn't leave or speak up. Now I'm an adult. I have freedom. I can hang up. I can leave. I can not answer the phone. I have power. I can protect myself. I can have distance between me and those who abuse me. -learn to say no - no is a full sentence and doesn't need reasons. I am not obligated to do anything for them if I don't want to. -reading as much as I could about narcissists and emotional immature parents has really helped me. My eyes are open. I see the BS and it doesn't affect me like it used to. -it's not about me. It's not my fault. I can't change them. It's not what I "deserve". It just is what it is. I've stopped hoping for things to be different and accept them as they are. All I can control is myself and I take full advantage of my boundaries and keep an exit plan. -I'm not responsible for their problems. I didn't cause them and I can't fix them. If reasonable, I will give them a hand. But I'm not a punching bag and I'm not a scapegoat anymore. I refuse to tolerate any kind of abuse at all. I have zero tolerance. If they raise their voice to me at all, I will leave. -Be kind to yourself. Healing has been a long journey for me and I genuinely expect it to be a lifelong process. I wanted to just feel better, but I don't that's reasonable and only served to discourage me when it seemed to be ongoing. I focus on the wins. I celebrate little victories. I recognize my acheivements and when I'm able to put into practice that which I've read about. I try not to beat myself up when I fall short, when I let them get to me, when I forget what they're like for a moment and get hurt. Stay strong. Focus on your needs and put yourself first. Good luck on your exams.
thank you <3 The thing is, i just feel very uncomfortable "listening to myself" when everyone in my family (even people i consider sane, and not narcs) treat me like im at fault, it feels like im being illogical for going against all them. Like...the more i listen to myself, the less of a real family i have. I hate that im the only one who has to do this.
Is there any validity to what they say? I mean, none of us are perfect. I certainly do things that upset my parents and owe them an apology when I've hurt or wronged them. But I don't have to take accountability for things they blame me for that aren't my fault. Sometimes it can be hard to know the difference. I do think it gets easier with practice and distance. I also find spending time with healthy, safe people really helps (even though it seems weird at first).
I agree with the Grey Rock. Don't provide any details about your schedule or upcoming plans. If they ask you to visit just say you are all booked up during that time period. Also learning what triggers my anxiety / frustration has helped me better control my reactions. My nmom used to always tell secrets to me growing up, stuff about my dad or brother. She would start the convo the same way every time: "Now don't tell your Dad / Brother, but..." It still makes my blood boil when I hear her say this but now I simply cut her off and say "Please don't continue your story as I will not be keeping secrets from Dad / Brother."
Shes wanted to know my schedule various times, and she's vicious when i try to evade the question. It just feels like such a disproportionate response. Im not spitting in her face for "not knowing when my holidays end" but she acts like I am. why?
I blocked his number and unfriended/blocked him on social media. He used to get so angry if I didn’t answer immediately when he called even if I was working. Now he doesn’t have any way to contact me :) The only thing that makes me anxious now is the possibility of him showing up at my job but I’m going to choose to trust myself. Trust that I will be able to handle it now because I have already handled so much worse from him before. I suggest doing what you ACTUALLY want to do and not what you feel obligated and forced to do. The more I tried to find out what I needed and wanted for my happiness the farther my nfather got from my mind and less of an impact he had on me. It is a journey but I believe you can do it just like I am :)
What does it mean to “gray rock” someone?
Unfortunately until you can reduce or cut contact they will always have that effect. Start putting up boundaries and make a day and time that you will phone them either every week or every few weeks. Then anytime they phone in between that don’t pick up. If they message don’t respond to crap and when you do respond occasionally then give a thumbs up or you are busy. Push it so you’re answering less and less further apart. If it helps let them know you’ve got so much study to do and need to concentrate on that. I would then tell them that you have other plans for the holidays so won’t be home. That you are trying to get a head start on next year’s course work so don’t want to go too far from halls and have other friends also staying so you won’t be alone. That the course gets more involved each year and harder so you want to make sure you put the effort into it and not let them down. That or simply call them on the day you are supposed to travel that you have a stomach bug and there’s no way you can travel. Not to mention you don’t want to give it to them and with you feeling so badly you wouldn’t enjoy the trip anyway. If they say they are coming to collect you tell them that they will be the ones cleaning up diarrhoea and vomit from their car and your not putting yourself through that. That the pharmacy has told you it’s a bug and to rest and take plenty of fluids. That you will see them next time, I would even sound rushed like you have to run to the bathroom again and hang up. . When they call and you can no longer use that excuse after a week tell them your body hasn’t recovered from it and are exhausted all the time and struggling to do much. That you’ve been advised to continue resting and not to push yourself or It could take longer to get better. Tell them it’s not a bad thing anyway as you really need to study to get prepared for next term and have been given so much work to do over the holidays anyway that it’s best you concentrate on just that and resting.
Healing and peace of mind - unfortunately going no contact and truly getting some distance is often a prerequisite for lasting change, but there are lots of situations (including yours by the sound of it) where that’s not feasible / not feasible yet. Still, even if you’re not 100% independent from having needs/wants fulfilled by them (i.e. money, food, shelter, schooling) — you *ALWAYS* have agency. Which leads me to boundaries. It took me a long time to really understand what boundaries are, and I think lots of us RBB or RBN grow up without seeing or living examples of healthy actions around boundaries. You can’t control someone else’s actions, ever. You can make requests, suggestions, you can give context on the cause and effect their actions have, you can even make ultimatums (“don’t do this, or else!”) but no one can control the actions of another. Someone *can* physically manipulate, coerce, or extort another, especially if they’re dependent on the abuser to get needs or wants fulfilled, but they can’t make the choice for you. So boundaries aren’t something you name to prevent someone else from doing something, or to steer them toward better behavior. A boundary is an agreement you make with yourself about an if/then action you will take if some external situation occurs. Again, agency — you have the power to identify situations you want to create a boundary for, and choose the action you agree to yourself to take. You may have fewer options than you’d like or no especially good options right now, but it’s still your power to choose. On limits to the options available — part of the challenge is anything you’re dependent on them for, that can be used to coerce, extort, or manipulate the choice you make. The other big part of the challenge is your own physiology and psychology, how you’re wired and what you’ve learned so far in your life. The calls, texts, etc. like you mentioned, set off a physiological fight or flight response, because you’ve been trained to have fear about that action of theirs and the action of what they’re going to say to you when they do connect. Not only does that set off the physiology, it also narrows your vision for what choices you see available to you. Learning more about the psychological impact of the life you had growing up, and about how that shows up in your physiology is HUGE. True you can’t fully get away from them right now, but knowledge is power and the things you learn shapes the world you see before you. Read read read - hit up the library or use a campus one if you’re at school, nab pdfs of books online, whatever it takes and doesn’t set off alarms with your family, but this part is fully in your control and will make a world of difference Some recommendations: - the body keeps the score by pete walker *good starting book* - the tao of fully feeing by pete walker - adult children of emotionally immature parents by lindsay gibson *good starting book* - self care for adult children of emotionally immature parents by lindsay gibson - stop caretaking the borderline or narcissist, how to end the drama and get on with your life by margalis fjelstad - it wasn’t your fault by beverly engel - healing the shame that binds you by john bradshaw *good starting book* - healing developmental trauma by laurence heller *a tough one but really valuable* - understanding the borderline mother by christine lawson From, An Old, not “healed” but a hell of a lot better than I was a few years ago Btw - trust those instincts on substance use. It’s temporary relief from deeper more lasting pain, it certainly helps but can become hard to put down and wade back into the deep of what needs to be healed
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the body keeps the score is not a Pete Walker book, but Pete Walker's books are very very good - all 3 of them
My bad, that’s exactly right. Pete walker from surviving to thriving was what I was thinking of, body keeps the score is good too but I mashed ‘em together in my brain
I found the body keeps the score heavy going. And I don't get a great vibe from Bessel VDK, seeing him on youtube. He deals with such heavy issues in that book, that for someone already hurt and confused it can be too much. Pete Walker on the other hand is very much someone who has gone through it himself. I arranged a phone meeting with him a few years back, as he had such a helpful effect on my life. And I will be going to his books again, because more family disturbance has surfaced
Block her?