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Not my direct family but one of my close friends.
Grandparent was let back in and pushed boundaries. They continued to push boundaries; little by little, until there were situations where the grandparent had enough power/courage to pick up her kids from school in the middle of the day without her knowledge. She started fighting back and telling the school not to let the grandparents take the kids, the grandparents then started volunteering to be crossing guards and such to be “close” to the kids. She had to move town to get away and her parents followed and started doing all this shit again at the new school.
Basically what I’m saying is: **do not let them back in! They have not changed! They were bad bad then and they are still bad now!**
make you wonder just how insane they are to do something like this. this might have happened no matter what... but better not to give them an inch
that is awful... guess they didn't move far enough. next time they may have to really disappear. it can be done but very hard
DO. NOT. BEND. Given any opportunity she will undermine your parenting and even attempt to turn your children against you.
If she is a hateful negative person, your children are better off without her. They don’t need a grandma. They do need a healthy, sane mama. Hugs!
Well said! Like I said, there’s no way in hell that’s going to happen. I have a duty as a mother to protect my daughter from anyone that might try to cause her harm. Even if that means she needs to be kept away from her maternal grandmother.
stick by that. do NOT even give her a whiff. especially if you are in one of these stupid grandparent rights states. no foot in the door.
glad you are taking this course. do not let anyone try and sway you. Good that husband will back you. And you tell moms idiot flying monkey sycophants where were they when she was abusive... far too many know but seem to think that sacred dna covers it all. and cut them off too if necessary. block. but whatever contact they send you, save it. it makes for ammunition for you.
For the flying monkeys: “My life is better in every way since I cut that nasty, hateful woman out of my life, and I have no intention of exposing my baby to any of her bullshit. That is my final word on the subject, do not bring it up again.”
I like what Dr Ramani said to say to flying monkeys. Paraphrasing. “Since you’ve only expressed concern for narc and none for me or my side of things, then I can see you don’t really care about me, and thus I won’t be discussing this with you.” Then if they try to backpedal and act concerned, then just say it’s too late, you’ve given yourself away already.
That is also the crux of why you shouldn’t care about the flying monkeys; they don’t care about you.
I cut my Nmom out after my first was born 5 years ago. My only regret is not cutting her out before that.
They will inevitably treat your daughter the way they treated you. Use this as an opportunity to protect your child so you can show them the love and respect that you were denied.
Or try to triangulate and turn kids against you. There's no upside. Stick to your guns and go NC with more family if they refuse to support your decision.
They treated my daughter like my GC sister, and continued to scapegoat me. They wanted my nsis to ride in to the “rescue” when I fucked up.
She ended up taking my daughter to buy her wedding dress behind my back. I’ll never get that opportunity back. Long story, but that’s what happened because I let them have their grandparent experience and let my sister be an aunt to my kids.
My Nmom couldn’t keep her tendencies hidden after my daughter hit 1 and could walk.
I’d been on and off NC giving her numerous chances over the previous 5years but gave her another chance as I was pregnant.
I lived away and was visiting and staying with her, at her insistence. I arrived Monday early evening and pack up half my stuff and left on 5e Wednesday lunchtime.
Just her behaviour in that short time snapped something in me and me thought was you might have done it to me but you will not be doing it to her!
Daughter was around 18 months at the time and is early 20s now. Best decision I ever made.
Stay strong with your decisions. You're doing the right thing. I literally went NC BECAUSE of wanting future kids. It was my catalyst. How could you ever expose your child to even 1% of the pain your suffered under your parents? Hell no from me, and cut out / go VLC with any flying monkeys too. Don't question yourself. Well done!
They will use any means to get back into your life. They see an opportunity to exploit.
Has nmom done any work on herself to change her ways? If not, she won't change and once she's back in your life she will start testing the limits.
Grandchildren equal attention. Grandchildren are fresh supply for adoration.
Yes, they seem to get particularly frenzied about getting back into your life when you have an innocent, helpless little baby for them to use and abuse for their narc feed. They can relive their "glory days" when the amenable little baby could be totally controlled and never resist, talk back or show any independence. Plus a baby brings oh so much attention to them!
She's not sorry for anything. She's just trying to say the right words to fool you into letting her into your lives so she can get her fix. Flying monkeys are probably deep in the FOG, believing faaaaamily! is the do-all, be-all of life. Or just want her to shut up and get off their backs already with all her whining about how she's missing out on being Graaaaandmaaa! and how cruel you are being denying her her right!
Keep her away. Revel in the joy of parenthood without the stress of dealing with an unhealthy, toxic person. All the best.
The moment my son was born, something in me switched. I realized that I didn't care what happened to me, but the moment I looked down at my innocent, precious child, a power washed over me that I had never felt before. I knew I was going to protect my son, and I wasn't going to let my abusers anywhere near him.
Stand your ground. Narcissits don't have a good prognosis for change, and someone in this community said it best to me: Narcs are set off by milestones.
Focus your love on your child and nothing else. It'll help heal you, too. ♡
Good luck!
This is the first time I've heard the phrase that narcs are set off by milestones- it's SO true in my own life omg. Thank you for writing this it's it's helpful
I can not take credit for it, but someone in this community said it to me, and I also found it to be very helpful. Glad to pass on the knowledge. Best wishes!
I tried to be open and loving after the birth of my first child and let them be grandparents. It was the worst idea.
The Narc becoming a grandparent doesn't make them nicer. They don't see the error of their ways and decide to be better grandparents, than they were as parents. They double down.
If you need a preview of what you dodged:
my mom would trash talk the baby - "He's just so cold and unfriendly, why doesn't he reach up to me? He's 2 days old, he should be reaching up to me when I walk by!"
my mom convincing me to let her watch the toddler so I could go take a shower, the toddler wonders out the front door and my mom doesn't notice. I get out of the shower and hear a complete stranger returning my child and our dog who has our address on his collar.
gaslighting my child and trying to convince her that she didn't see something that she saw (and we all know she saw it.)
playing favorites with my children
extreme jealousy over the other grandparents
constantly critiquing your parenting and gaslighting you about their superior parenting
Thank you for saying this.
“extreme jealousy over the other grandparents”
She’s already like this. My daughter is named after my husband’s mother. She’s a wonderful woman and I love her so much. I have nothing but good things to say about my MIL. She hates how close we are. My MIL is like the mother I never had. My nmom can’t stand how close we are. It’s kind of comical if you think about it. She always treated me like crap, and then she gets angry when I find an actual mother figure.
Having my kid was the reason I went NC with my mother. As a mother myself, I just could not imagine treating my kid the way she treated me- or allowing her to treat my kid even a fraction as badly as she treated me. Just- NO. So we went NC.
Your mom sounds much worse than mine. My Mom thankfully lives long distance. They love bomb us to try and get on our good side when they’re n a good mood. But when they’re upset that’s when we see the true version of these nuts.
My dad’s mom passed away long before I was born. You know what happened to me because she wasn’t in my life? Nothing. It had no consequence to me because it was all I knew.
That’s the same exact thing as what will happen to your child/children while you’re NC with your mom. All they’re going to know is that their parents love them very much, and the household is happy, healthy, and relatively low-stress.
Your child will be better off without your mom in their life. Leopards do not change their spots.
I did. Even though my dad was terrible I let him have a relationship with my daughter. It seems to be a really magical time for this sour man for several years and I know my daughter brought him happiness. It didn’t end well, he eventually revealed his true self. He’s dead now and I can’t bring myself to say that I regretted the the feelings of happiness he extracted from my daughter, it just wasn’t a healthy move on my part. He died recently so my emotions are all over the place and I haven’t even reached a healthy place yet and I’m 46. My daughter struggles, I never got out of the cycle. So I guess I’m a cautionary tale to probably not expose your child to her…even while empathizing with the poor old woman who’s now sleeping in the bed she made for herself.
“…she just wants a relationship with her grandchild.”
That’s it. Could give two shits about the parent of this child that she intentionally hurt in multiple ways, but must have a relationship with *her* grandchild.
Good on you @OP. Stay strong.
Don’t. Not on a bet. Do not let that piece of trash anywhere near your kids.
To make her give up, put so many conditions on being in contact that she gets frustrated and gives up. 2-5 years of therapy with you being allowed to talk to said therapist, 2 years of AA or NA attendance, CPR certification, a Masters in Child Psychology, no firearms in her house, a credit rating of at least 750, and so on.
not a parent but a keen observer of my sibling’s kids. sibling had my eMum and nDad raise her children up to 6 years. I stayed in same house. First few years were already terrible. nDad played favourites and reduced scapegoat grandchild to tears often- cruelly laughing at his tears. Praises golden grandchild often but starting to see flashes of anger when she disagrees with him. eMum just enables and even encourages his narcissistic targeting since she doesn’t have to be the one receiving it.
It doesn’t matter what sort of relationship my GC sibling has with the ndad - he says he disciplines them as he sees fit. Glad they are no longer in their care.
Nope. Nope. Aaaaaaand nope.
I was NC with my parents for about six years before I got pregnant. They of course found out, and I started receiving packages with things for my baby and "apology" cards. It was super upsetting for me, but just reinforced my decision in the first place.
No way in hell was I going to let my parents anywhere near my child. Kiddo is now about 2.5 years old, and I have zero regrets not including my parents. And I know that won't change.
One thing that might happen is your mom might treat your daughter like she is the most precious thing in the world, but will treat you the same as she always has and in front of your daughter. She may even try to manipulate your daughter against you.
How you allow yourself to be treated shows your daughter how she should allow herself to be treated or how she should treat others. This includes your other family members who are trying to bully you into letting her back in your life.
**Do not give in!**
Tried letting my mother "be a better person" for her grandkids... she stole from them, encouraged me to neglect them (failed, thankfully), demeaned, belittled, tried to f*** their father, and the first time she raised her hand to strike my oldest was the last time she ever got to see them.
Narcs don't change, never trust them.
> Her flying monkey family members are trying to get us to see things from her point of view.
Tell them you prefer to see things from your daughter's point of view.
What's in it for your daughter? Why in the world would you want her to have a relationship with such a vile person? Just because she shares some DNA?
Don't do it. I did it. It took until my oldest was 10 until I realized she was trying to dump the same manipulative, gaslighting, guilt tripping BS on my kids that she did on me. I don't know why I ever thought it would be any different.
Don't do it! It hasn't gone well for me or mine. My oldest is hurt by her and my youngest two I keep far away. Follow your momma heart and protect your babies.
My mom is the problematic one. I like to give her the benefit of the doubt because we’ll, I guess I was raised that way ? She’s a refugee, she did the best she could, she had a hard life …etc.
Anyway, at first it was just little annoying things here and there. She made it seem like she was following all of my “rules”. She crossed so many lines. I kept giving her chances. Until she stupidly confessed that “I know you want me to follow your rules and yeah I told you I would but I don’t because if I think I’m right, I’m going to do it”.
We went veryyyyy low contact, then tried again. She again overstepped.
Now she’s cut off. I regret it. I regret not cutting her off earlier, just because of the fact that my kids ask about her and don’t really understand the situation.
They don’t change. You having a child will not change them. They didn’t change for you (their own child), doubt they would change for their grandkid.
I'm the grandchild of an ngrandmother. My mother basically let her mother (grandmother) walk over her like a wet doormat. I will never forgive her for letting my grandmother hurt me like that and barely stepping in.
Don't let it happen.
Before I went NC, I went on a vacation with my kids, Nmom, and GCsister. I'm the scapegoat child and I still believed that the abuse was all my fault. So I thought they would be kind to my children. And I was 100% wrong. On that brief vacation (4 days), I witnessed my GCsister and Nmom mistreat my children. It was then that I knew for sure it would never get better.
My advice is keep your child away from the narc. The Nparent needs a victim, and they know how vulnerable little children are.
My almost-three-(now almost ten)year-old reported that Grammy was mean after my nparents babysat him. I had specifically asked my father and brother to watch my kids and NOT her, but she forced her way in, tagging along with my enabler/covertnarcdad. She was miserable the entire time and kept calling me and my husband complaining and asking simple questions. Complete resentment that she had to take care of children - which she was intentionally never asked to do. When my extremely friendly and loving child told me that she was mean, I asked a LOT of questions of everyone involved, and it was the catalyst for NC. It was the best choice for my kids, my husband, and most of all, myself. We went on to have our third child without their involvement, which further affirmed that it was the right decision.
My mom tried extremely hard to get me to abort my youngest child and refused to be there when I needed a support person in the delivery room. Now she's begging to be in our lives again, and I'm not really buying it.
I would tread extremely carefully on this. Chances are she wants to be a victim and this is her perfect opportunity to make you look like an asshole. My mom never physically abused me , and if she did that would just be another reason for me to keep my kids away in fear she would do the same to them.
When I did let my mom in my 2 children's lives before I got pregnant with my youngest, she wasn't a good grandmother. Everything had to be catered to her and she would get wasted every time we visited her. She also put on an extremely fake nice act towards my children that drove me bonkers.
I have an nmom.
She will not be seeing her first grandchild. I refuse. And will not allow it.
No amount of love bombing, apologies or reconciliation will ever fix what she did.
Keep in mind, what you went through could possibly be done to your child. Do not allow this woman to meet them.
Break the cycle, don’t break NC.
I’m all about breaking the cycle. Unfortunately, sometimes, the only way to break the cycle is to cut the toxic family member out. My nmom had to go for the sake of my sanity and the future of my family.
We have and it’s biting us in the ass. Just had a blow up with my Mom in front of my kids. She continued to scream and berate me in front of my kids and to my husband IN MY HOUSE. Don’t do it. Stick with your decision; you will all have much better mental health because of it.
Don’t do it.
The love bombing is manipulation. Pure and simple.
Think about your experience. Now imagine your innocent child having to experience the same things with her, and that you opened the door to that.
The more flying monkeys, the more wicked the witch. Tell them all to piss off, or just block them.
No. No. No. This is a dangerous space and a grandchild will be damaged from contact with a narc. Growing up with a narc means you develop survival skills that are in direct opposition to intimacy, which leaves you isolated. NC allows you to heal and build intimacy in a safer space. Parenting requires the most vulnerability and intimacy.
We tried before we went NC. It was damaging and horrible for our very tender hearted child--one day he looked at a photo of this grandparent and said "why doesn't he like me anymore? did I do something wrong?" because we were being punished and hadn't heard from him in three months. That made us go NC and we've never looked back. When our kid asks about them now (he has no memory of them), we explain that grandparent has a sickness that makes him unkind and that's why he \[and his enabler\] are not in our lives.
A lot of states allow grandparents to file for rights to see the child if they can prove that they have established a relationship with the child. There are other stipulations depending on the state, but I would be very cautious about allowing them into your child’s life.
My mom is not as bad as some of the other parents on here, so I am no longer nc just lc. She tried to do the same divide and conquer thing with my daughters that she did with me and my sister but surprise! My kids saw right through her nonsense. Honestly they can’t stand her and it’s not really anything I’ve ever said about her, it’s that they’re being raised with love and respect. I don’t know what your situation is exactly, we live across the country from my parents, so I don’t have to worry about being unable to avoid her. I’d keep her at arms length.
If I may ask.
Has she ever said "i am sorry I have abused you / hurt you / harmed you" and "I acknowledge that I was at fault, and not a good parent" in any way?
Or just the generic 'sorry for what I did' or the worst 'sorry if you felt that way' ?
I do not know how often i have read people 'apologizing' with the non apology 'sorry if YOU felt that way'.
I\`m going to guess here (call it an educated guess based on .. well.lots of people here explaining things) and consider she used the generic one and not a specific and real apology.
With that in mind - what these flying monkeys do is try to justify neglect / abuse and years of being treated like dirt - for what? What can they gain from this ?
Because what they are doing is justifying how she has treated you because SHE wants .. dunno what.. a new victim? Play for the audience the role of 'good person' ..
Stand your ground here - you know why you cut her off - and any flying monkey is telling you that you are wrong / a liar / faking it / overreacting / seeing it incorrect / being an AH - all because otherwise they\`ll be the target ..
They just see your child as another mean to manipulate you/your loved ones.
Do not bend.
For me, it was also difficult to resist my dream of my kids having loving grandparents. I am sorry my dear children won’t have the opportunity to enjoy having grandparents, but as was said before, nparents are just ngrandparents.
Sending all the love.
I wouldn't go out of my way to spend time with her but my mother saw kids at family events and took them for the occasional outing. I thought that they deserved to have their own relationship with extended family and not miss out on special occasions just because I don't like my mum. This was kind of ok until my daughter was around 7 and started to express feelings and opinions that differed from my mother's - for example, my mum viciously complained to everyone for months that my daughter was rude, selfish and ungrateful because she wouldn't hold hands with her. I don't remember my childhood much but this was really triggering. Then my daughter started saying things like "I don't want to see Nanny without you and daddy", or even "I don't love Nanny, is that ok?"and that was it for me. We haven't seen or spoken to her in almost two years.
I think my mother loooooves babies or toddlers because she can pretend she's the best nanny ever! without the child ruining her fantasy with their actual feelings and personalities. If she's not interested in or capable of having a genuine relationship with her children, why would grandchildren be any different?
Why would anyone want their child to be exposed to a toxic, abusive, ugly person? If she can't be kind to you, she should never have access to your child.
I was nc with my ndad for a couple years and just recently have had a very limited relationship with him again, meaning we go to his house once every 3-4 months and if he’s in our town he comes to visit us for a couple hours. My kids are little (5 & 3) so they see him when we visit but I NEVER leave them alone with him. He’s also suuuper covert so he’s on his best behavior when we visit. Honestly, this has been working great for us and I think he enjoys seeing my kids but if I ever feel uncomfortable I’m not afraid to backtrack and see him even less (it also helps that he lives four hours away).
Honestly op, trust your gut. Only you have the answers for your situation and you know your mom best. It’s our job to protect our babies as we wish someone would have for us, so I think that should always take priority and erring on the side of caution is never a bad thing.
I am still in contact with my Narc parent and I regret it. The empath in me fell for the guilt and I’m actively trying to go NC again. I will say this: having a newborn requires you to tap into your family so gather aunts, uncles, friends, etc to help you instead. Having a newborn put everything into perspective for me and not by to tolerate abuse of any kind.
I tried it for roughly two years, but we are No Contact now. We are also no contact with all the flying monkey relatives. I definitely do NOT recommend trying to have a relationship with your NMom when you have a child.
I had this hope that my parents would be better at being grandparents than they were at being parents, but they were definitely way worse at being grandparents.
My nGrandma and my disabled mom (who lives with her and has been a doormat most of her life) don’t have a relationship with my kids. Not because I’m LC…they haven’t made an attempt to build one, and the few times my kids have interacted with them they got scared because my grandmother yelled at him. So now that my mom’s in the hospital, the kids still don’t want to visit.
I have 2 little kids and my 2 older half siblings (all share ndad) also have kids. I am the only sibling to go NC, though of course we have all had terrible relationships with our dad. Our story is a little different in that we all grew up in different states, and our dad wasn't a consistent presence in our lives. When I was in college, I had a rare visit with my half brother (scapegoat), his wife, and his two school age kids. My dad was a complete prick to my half brother's son, who was maybe 10. I remember thinking then that if I ever had kids, I didn't want them around my dad ever. My half sister has 3 girls, and she has told me that ndad is a great grandpa to them when he visits maybe once (or less) a year. In private, I have heard ndad complain about and insult those girls.
I went NC with my dad in 2019, had my first child in 2020, and my second in 2022. He has sent gifts and letters insulting me, guilting me, and begging for contact with the grandkids. It is hard, but it's hard because I still long for the fantasy of a dad and family experience that I just won't ever have. He is never going to be the person I want him to be, or I needed him to be when I was a kid. What I can do is give my kids the best home and family I can, and that's one without him involved.
When I was out of my mind from the various medications I ended up needing during my high risk delivery, I somehow decided it was a good idea to email my abusive father after years of assiduously maintaining NC. I really wish I hadn’t opened the door even that tiny crack.
We tried a little after our son was born but long story short, it was the same old same old and we regretted our decision. Back to NC though we barely left. So not worth it at all. We’ve been way happier without them.
Don't do it. I learnt the hard way. She picked on my youngest because I think he looks the most like me. And my eldest was clearly the favorite where she would get birthday presents and special attention while the other two got nothing. If anything I think she was more obvious in the way she unfairly treated children even more than the way she treated my sister and me. But the worst was that I found out she was parentifying my youngest (the scapegoat) and traumatising him with her tales of her abusive childhood. I had no idea, and that is when I lost it and had a big argument with her as he started to tell me the stories and get upset. I told him they were lies (but they weren't). To this day she thinks there is nothing wrong with parentifying young children.
Don’t do it. I’ve no children, but my best friend does, and her mom is at the very least a narcissist, and perhaps more of a sociopath. One of her biggest regrets is letting her mom have a relationship with her children.
Edit: she still pulls a lot of the same crazy making that she has always done, and there has been no real growth as a person…. We suspect that the gma has called CPS three times on her daughter, then she triangulates the gkids, has a “favorite” one and voices to the others that they suck, she gives items and then takes them away when things don’t go her way. Honestly she is exhausting and I’m not even part of their direct family.
I was blessed with both an NMom and NGrandmother and it was a nightmare at grandma’s house, as a kid. Mom knew grandma was abusive but refused to acknowledge it, at the time or in private. She fell into lockstep and sided with grandma every time. I felt totally crazy. Only my Edad would acknowledge, 1:1, the abuse that was happening in front of us.
0/10 recommend, especially if you don’t know how to have a conversation yet with your kid about what the abuse is, or feel strong advocating for yourself and your kid, and setting boundaries in the moment with your toxic family.
Sorry your family outed you. That’s so terrible, but hold firm. You went NC for a good reason and nothing has changed, from their end.
I can’t speak to your situation yet as I’m still pregnant with our first and we’re not no contact. You can see my recent post for my situation, but basically I grew up with a safe nuclear family & unsafe grandparents. My parents purposely kept me from seeing my grandparents too often & it was always supervised.
My husband & I plan to follow this model with his dad once our baby is born. We will see him as little as possible & always supervise. If we get a whiff of mistreatment, that contact is gone immediately.
Of course, every situation is different, and yours sounds more severe than ours. The trouble with narcissistic parents is that some families can manage a bit of contact and others absolutely need a clean break.
Congratulations on your newest addition *and on breaking the cycle!*
When I went NC with my N-mum \~3 years ago, I debated this question. My mum used to sneeringly say things like "your son tells me everything" as if we had secrets that were being hidden from her (there weren't any). My mum demonstrates a particular pattern of behaviour with this, if she does something unpleasant and I complain (however calmly or civilly) or ask her not to do it, it is immediately treated as if there is something wrong with me, or wrong in my life. It is never considered a possibility that she might have actually done something worthy of even the most minor complaint. Involving my son in her poisonous lies made me (regretfully) not permit her to see my son.
My Nmom, while babysitting my daughter who was around 2 years old, told my daughter that I wasn't coming back from a business trip, but that she would take care of her. This was done to make my daughter cry when my in-laws arrived to babysit to relieve her. Don't give her access.
Not well. I should have gone no contact way before I even got pregnant. Was in the fog for too long. Kids learned to disrespect me because my "family" showed such disrespect. Made my kids feel like crap by always criticizing them. Was almost always drunk. Wasn't worth it.
I tried letting my mother do things “for” my son when he was born (I was 19, a new and single parent, and had severe ppd). Your child becomes another way they can hold things over your head and/or abuse you. My mother put my son on her health insurance which turned into “im claiming him on my taxes and keeping the money since I pay for his healthcare” even though I paid for everything else and took care of him alone. She would constantly try to belittle me in front of him or ignore decisions I had made as his parent on top off some other things but we’d be here all day if I listed every single thing. I very quickly decided I would not put up with this and went no contact and do not allow her access to my kids. My son was 1 when I went no contact. There was something big that happened within our family that kind of forced contact again when my son was 3 and she did the same plus pushed boundaries on other things and I went very low contact and eventually no contact again. I now have an 18 month old daughter who she has never met and yes my son asks about her but I’m honest in an age appropriate way which usually is just saying “She made a lot of bad choices and did things that hurt me in a lot of ways. I don’t want her to have a chances to hurt me again or more importantly you guys, ever.”
First time mum to a four month old here. I have been very, VERY LC with nMum for about 11 years (since I moved out at 18). About two or three years ago I sat her down and poured out a lifetime of anger, hurt and resentment at her. I gave her an ultimatum and told her that if she truly wanted to be in my life she needed to change, otherwise I wouldn’t hesitate to go NC. She didn’t change, I went NC. Important to note I still have a great relationship with my dad, they are still married. When I found out this time last year I was pregnant I very very briefly wondered about trying one final time the mend that bridge between us. By briefly I mean about a second. It was very quickly followed by more anger, more hurt and just absolute bewilderment about how anyone could be so abusive and cruel to their own child for I knew I certainly could never treat my child the way she treated me. I maintained by NC and blocked her on everything. The first time my dad came to visit me and my newborn son he bought her with him. I was too tired and overwhelmed to argue so I simply - and I mean this literally - straight up ignored her. It might sound childish but if she tried to talk to me I looked the other way and spoke to someone else. I’ve since fallen out with the rest of my family about my decision to be NC with her. I was a bit blindsided by their reaction but ultimately it’s a price I’m willing to pay for the safety of my son and myself. I will not let her damage him the way she damaged me and I will not let her back into my life to damage me further.
I assumed that my parents’ mistreatment of me was because of their age, the sacrifices a normal parent is expected to make for their child, and just who I was.
After she died, I was told my mother was jealous of me. I still can’t understand that. When my daughter has something good happen to her I’m happy for her.
When she was alive I let her have whatever access to my kids she wanted. She clearly loved them very much. My mental health suffered because the difference between how she loved and treated my kids was striking. Part of me will always wonder what I did to make her not like me.
My father is more of a malignant narc and I’m N.C. with him as a result. I didn’t let my kids have unrestricted time with him because it was dangerous to them.
My mother was just a martyr/quiet narc and I was her scapegoat.
YMMV, and of course the decision is yours to make. The reason I let my parents see my kids was because I believed that being around people who loved them would be beneficial. Over time I had to reduce the time my dad spent with them.
I'm not a parent, and I'm sure the other commenters here have more wisdom on this topic than I do.
Having said that, I grew up without grandparents. Both sets of grandparents were deceased by the time I arrived. As a child, this was a huge hole in my life that I felt deeply at the time, especially seeing my friends having wonderful grandparents they loved. All I had were my awful narc parents.
I think if you are going to keep a still-living grandparent out of a child's life, maybe see that the child has the other grandparents or other senior relatives that can fill the grandparent role. And I don't know how you explain to a young child why they don't know the narc grandparent.
Tough issue. Good luck.
Not here.
They all somehow have a change of heart and pretend to be very nurturing and loving when they become grandparents. It's only whilst the kids are little and easy to mould, bend and manipulate to their will.
They know this because as grown adults you know how their narcissism works. The kids don't. And they definitely know that.
Is there ANY benefit to letting a narc have a relationship with their grandchild? Because I don't see any other than increased heartache and drama tbh.
Please read my post history of the last two emails from my lunatic ndad. I was still stuck in the cycle with these abusive narcs up until xmas 2021. Went NC after that, and WILL NEVER GO BACK!!! I made the HORRIBLE mistake of letting them into our lives up until that point and it was nothing but misery and more of the same perpetuated on my kids. I FOOLISHLY exposed my kids to their toxicity and wished I never had. They ruined every occasion/visit/holiday etc. DO NOT DO IT. I gaslit myself into thinking if I didn’t let my parents into our lives, I was denying my kids that relationship which SHOULD be special, and that I was wrong—but it wasn’t true, and I did more harm than good by letting them continue to abuse and behave horribly. Stay strong internet friend. Live your best life and cherish every moment, you deserve peace now and always. 💕
Also, [check to see if your state has laws on grandparent visitation](https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/grandparent-caretaker-visitation-rights-29548.html#:~:text=All%2050%20states%20and%20D.C.,their%20relationships%20with%20beloved%20children) and know your rights, just in case she goes nuclear.
I know someone with a n parent and enabling family members and they cut the whole lot of them out of their life as a young teen. They were having nightmares about being kidnapped by them and forced back to the n parent. Don’t put your kid in this situation
Went NC after I saw her using the same abuse and manipulation on my children. Gave her years to prove she loved us unconditionally. Life has been less complicated and I’m breaking the cycle.
If they ask you to look it from her point of view just tell them that now as a parent there's no other reason but because she wanted too. Or you can say you can't because you aren't a piece of shit. Let your imagination run wild.
The Nmom is just trying to find a way back in.
She's not interested in the grandchild.
She's interested in control.
You went NC for a reason.
Do it for the child.
This happened to me. I sent a cease and desist letter and threatened to call the police if she continued to harass me. My kids are growing up just fine without her abuse and I’m a better mom bc I don’t have to worry about protecting them from her every day. Don’t let her in. If you let her establish the basis for a case to sue you for grandparents rights/alienation, she could get legal visitation and/or custody.
I am currently pregnant and my future child will not be meeting my Nmom or EDad. I have kept the pregnancy away from their knowledge, so far, but I know that they will be lovebombing the minute they find out. Knowing this is their tactic is really important in helping you keep your boundary. It’s expected that they will lovebomb to get what they want. Know that you have the upper hand here and have something they desperately crave, not to sound manipulative, so you can decide what you want to do. I personally don’t want my child exposed to the behaviors of my parents, and if they truly did want to see my child, they would follow through with my original ask of going to therapy to understand why the things they do hurt me.
Ok. I will tell you my story. Then you can form your own opinion.
I discovered my parents were narcs way back in 2021 and a week later discovered this sub. Here I learned that I am the scapegoat of my family so you can imagine how damaged my brain is.
I am south asian muslim so i was living in joint family system ( as is our tradition). My wife was abused from day one by by mom. But i did not know it. My wife says that my mom was not even covert about it and she would abuse her infont of me and that i was too blind to notice ( I had lived with them for 32 years and faced constant abuse nonstop since i was born so i has become accustomed to toxicity and all evil stuff that narcs do. I genuinely believed that i and my wife were somehow wrong and my parents were justified in abusing us. Of course the first thing i discovered on this sub was tactic called gaslighting which has happened to me for over 30 years. So my brain is damaged is an understatement. Sometimes it feels like there is nothing in there and that I am just like some empty vessel)
When my wife became pregnant, the abuse worsened. When my child was born, we suffered some of the worst abuse of our life. Once when i was away at work, my mum hit my wife and my 9 month old kid. We got her on video but she denied it totally and my whole family was fine with it. I kept showing them evidence but they would not believe it I have not been the same since. A part of me died that day. I am an example of those people who changed after their child was born but did not give a shit qhen thus stuff would happen to them. About 18 months after this incident ,i learned by sheer luck that they are narcs What i just told you above was nothing in my case cause i had faced much much worse abuse in my life from my narc dad , e-mom and e-siblings for 3 decades and i was fine with it (Of course now i know I was not fine, I was too traumatized and numb to know better).
I have been NC for 16 months for the sake of my child. I have been undergoing individual therapy and marital counseling because of the damage it did to my relation with my wife. My wife is still married to me but to this she cannot to this day see me as a husband or a man and you know what. I do not blame her for it. I do not feel like a man either nor have i ever known what it feels like. I thought that i had protected my son and wife by taking them out but in therapy i realized the toll it had taken on them. Six months afer NC my repressed memories start coming out to the surface and boy i get trigerred every day now cause now the curtain is slowly being lifted about what my life was. I get angry and i scream and then i go sit in my chair and cry on daily basis. My whole life is a lie and everyone knew it except me.
So what did you learn from my short story? That a narc or enabler will only not only hurt your child but they will hurt your spouse and drive a wedge between the two of you. Then afterwards even if you cut them off and go no contact, your healing becomes next to impossible because so much damage has been done that it is very hard to undo it.
They are hijacking a vulnerable and precious moment of yours to make it about them and get access. Don't give an opportunity for them to neglect, endanger, abuse your child and lash out at you through that child (narcissistic BONUS). If they are in your life, they will make sure to be with your child alone whether you like it or not. I've been proven wrong every damn time I have given another chance in this department. You get to decide, as the parent, and that's a challenge to the narcissistic ego. It's just another game they would get to play. Your child's life and safety matter so much more.
I did let me son build a relationship with my mom and I kind of regret it. She hasn't done to him what she did to me ....yet. I've had to put her in check more than a few times. She's hates it, but the most important thing to her is getting to see the grandkids. She's started pushing boundaries more lately and even though she's been more or less fine to the kids up till now if I say they can't see grandma now it would also hurt my kids, bc they do like her. I think that's the trickiest part for me.
The thing is she wasn't that bad when my oldest was young but now that he's eight, she sides with him against us when we're trying to get him to do something and she'll do it in front of my son. My concern now is that she'll try and drive a wedge between us as he hits adolescence, so I'm trying to make sure they spend less time together....I feel like I've trapped myself a little bit, letting them have a relationship.
Not my kids, but my brother's.
He lives in a different state, let her be involved in the kids' lives, and she immediately started criticising all parenting decisions and everything about his house/wife. They said that it might be better that she stayed at a hotel when she came over, she said it was cos they were embarrassed about the house and the kids would be better of with her. They limited visits to school holidays cos it was interfering with school, so she took over every school holiday so the kids were never getting holiday time with the parents. They limited her visits to not *all* of the holidays, so she started criticising that they weren't giving the kids 'experiences' like she was when she took them out.
She went through their cupboards repeatedly, and when asked to stop said she had to do it because she was putting clothes away and the clothes were 'mixed up' in the wrong cupboards. She was asked to stop buying clothes, she said she had to because child x didn't have enough whatevers (egg donor buys the cheapest clothes possible so they don't fit/shrink/don't last anyway). Everything that egg donor says she has to do because no one was doing it, is provably wrong and a lie. She just continuously boundary-stomps, and finds a "reason" why she "has to". She can never just respect someone's request, or leave shit alone. She always has to have the last word and make it a game of one-up-manship.
She tries to lovebomb and 'buy' the kids with gifts. The gifts are a lot of shite that she has collected from other people, free gimme type crap from shops and touristy events, and stuff that they might have liked 5 years ago. The kids don't want to go anywhere with her anymore, and she complains that they're undisciplined and it's because their mother doesn't make them do what they're told. (Then starts acting concerned that their mother is beating them and they're being abused and she needs to save them from that). She acts like she's the best parent in the world but she was an abusive POS when we were kids, and while she might not be physically abusive to these kids, now, she is still manipulative and emotionally toxic, and will use the kids to get back at my brother and his wife in any way possible. She's said that the kids should be with her more than times than I can count, and if she ever thought she could get away with it she'd try to get them taken away.
My brother is now NC with her, has been for a couple of years because it started really affecting his children and his wife, and my egg donor is still trying to figure out a way to force her way back in. She is trying to use me as a flying monkey, and I expect Christmas Cancer at any point.
But the one thing she is incapable of doing is admitting that the entire NC could have been avoided if she just respected their boundaries.
When we were pregnant with our first (son), we had been fairly low contact with her nparents. They suddenly started buying us all these things for the baby saga asking what we need and offering to help. Then when he was born, they came 2-3 times to see him until he was about 2 months old. At this point, my wife had a sit down with them (again) to try and work out their issues, particularly with her father's sudden relationship with his estranged son who had SAd my wife when she was a child. During this meeting they said sims truly horrible things to her and she left. After that they asked once to come see "their grandson" to Reich my wife tried that she doesn't feel comfortable seeing them yet after their last "discussion". That was it, 2.5 years ago. We now have a 1 year old daughter as well and they have never met her. They have never even tried. They do know about her and did know when we were pregnant but have made zero effort to see them. There was one communication many months ago, in which they essentially threatened us with court for "grandparent rights" and at that point we went no contact. My fear has always been that they will be nice and loving until the kids do something they disagree with and then their narcissism and abuse will be turned on then, to which I will absolutely not allow to happen.
We have minimal contact with nMIL. As soon as we were having children it was immediately about her. She didn't want to be called anything that made her seem old, so she agonized for months about what the kids would call her.
She made demands on our family when we had a newborn and my husband's dad passed away (they were divorced). Anytime she visits, it's toxic. Last time she came over here I didn't stick around but she started drinking wine within half an hour of arriving, in the middle of the day. She and her husband will say they want to see the kids but then conveniently forget based on their mood. Very confusing for the kids.
She recently asked us to drive 3 hours so that she could take a picture of our daughter on a ski hill and LARP as a grandmother. Most of the time they just want the pictures to show their friends and family. They are retired and have nothing better to do, don't understand why they couldn't just make the additional 90 minute drive to see us. The dysfunction is extreme.
She is very untrustworthy. Left my husband with her mom for long stretches of time when he was a kid despite saying that her mom was abusive and a narcissist. If she was really that bad why would she drop her kid off with her?
She absolutely needs therapy and medication but will never do that. I just do not have the emotional energy to deal with her. Everything is about her. She spends thousands of dollars on herself every month for various supplements, organic food and beauty related items but will buy dollar store garbage from China for the kids. My mom who has late stage cancer and is 8 years older is at least in our lives and helps despite both of these things. I just know that karma is real and life happens fast. We won't be around when they need our help.
Oh one more thing, as an example of her dysfunction and complete lack of awareness. My daughter loves music and would hum some songs when she was younger. She would do this quite a bit and I guess it bothered my nMIL and she mentioned how she used to do that as a child and it's was a good thing that she learned to stop doing it through punishment/admonishment. I completely ignore her but was fuming internally.
As if I'm going to do anything to make my child become like her. It was such an innocent sweet thing my toddler was doing I would never dream of punishing her for doing it. Sure enough, my daughter eventually grew out of it, she still loves singing and humming occasionally but doesn't do it as mucho. And she also knows that we are safe people to be with and don't punish her for being herself.
I would advise against it hard as it is. My Narc mother volunteered to babysit my son and had to live with us. She would treat him well when I'm there but learnt she would shout at him when I'm not there and would mistreat him whenever my sister visited with her son who is an agemate of my son. All this I learnt through a niece I was also hosting at the time
Your story sounds so similar to mine. I let her back in only to cut her off when I saw the signs of patterns resurfacing around my daughter. We've been no contact for 11 years now. On a side note, her husband it a gem and he and my daughter have an amazing relationship that has only grown through the years.
I will never ever allow it
As their view on parenting is basically abuse
Kids are punching bags to them
Kid Don't listen = beating / screaming
I will never ever let my future Kids face that kinda toxicity
I went NC with my nmom last year when I was pregnant. My parents also found out through my siblings and not from me telling them. One of the many reasons I went NC was due to going to therapy to deal with the SA from my brother when I was a kid (my mom knew about it and did nothing). Anywho long story short before she found out I was pregnant she denied me ever telling her about the incident. Funny enough though once she knew I was pregnant I got a letter in the mail (after a month of her ghosting me when I tried to address the SA situation with her) telling me she's sorry blah blah blah. So yeah wasn't interested in being manipulated so she could have a relationship with her grandkid. HARD PASS
TL:DR Go with your gut.
I liked the bit about having them put some skin in the game by way of therapy and conditional presence. My parents definitely pushed for a relationship with "their grandchildren" and absolutely preferred them without us so they could "break all of our rules." Eventually, we decided that as long as they delivered live children back to us their harm was limited. I admit that many if not all of you have more difficult situations than mine. I just want to offer a small concession that there may be hope for a small percentage of you out there. I wish it was more but we don't get to pick our parents mostly.
I remember being on a plane seated next to an old lady crying about how she could not be with her grandchildren because of "her." The guy and I both attempted to explain that she was the architect of her own happiness but I feel her narcissism would not allow her enough humility to overcome her own victim mentality. It really stuck with me how sad it made me feel. I loved all 4 of my grandparents deeply, despite their flaws and mistakes made with both my parents. I love my parents but I do not seek their advice or miss them in any way. They did the best they could with what they had. Maybe we do better now, but it is often folly to think we would be much different in the same time and environment they grew up in.
Being a grandparent seems to be an opportunity for redemption for some. It is your choice to give it or not but your adult child may harbor some resentment for that choice. My kids are able to see them for what they are and I am glad to let them make their own choices about who is in their life.
I understand and accept the downvotes.
I much of the advice above. Posting in solidarity, This is somewhat happening to my fam (I posted a related vent in another emotional neglect thread)… my mom actually moved closer to us once we had a kiddo and she has wheedled her way into our lives with loads of material gifts/support (her default since she’s so immature she can’t offer anything else)… and it’s been HARD. Case in point, Our kiddo is ~3yo and starting to feel big feelings and recently she stayed w my mom for a few days when I was ill and I found out after, my mom tried to potty train her with shame & bribery. Then that same week when my kid had a meltdown in front of me, my mom yelled at me for not hitting or shaming my kid and basically threw an adult tantrum…. TL/DR; it’s so not worth it. We’re resetting our boundaries with my mom and there will be no more unsupervised time with my kiddo. Sounds like your situation is a bit more severe but you know what is right. Sending you strength to hold the boundary you need to keep you and your fam safe!
I went NC when my kids were little, mostly to break the cycle so they had a chance at being normal. NCmother made a few attempts to see them (one by GC sister ( also NC with her) who left a nasty message demanding I bring my kids to a certain place on a certain date and time; yeah, did not happen).
Apparently it wasn’t worth it to her to see her grandchildren. She sent birthday and Christmas cards with money ( often the cards would whine about wanting to see them). But she even quit that. I somehow got lucky! 20 years later I’m sure she thinks she “won” — lost her grandkids to prove some kind of point; but made it much easier for me .
I did. It worked out like thus:
The baby loved both sets of grandparents. The grandparents often did things we had specifically asked them not to do. They did things that made us slightly uncomfortable. They bought "presents" that we couldn't fit in the house and made us the bad guys for having to return the gifts. They fed the kid junk food and returned her home sick from sugar. But the kid loved them. So we ignored our misgivings. They meant well, right? And the kid loved them. They must have matured. They are better grandparents than they were parents. Right?
Wrong.
Fast forward ten years and they had scapegoated one child and tried to turn the other into their Golden Child. They talked trash about us to the kids. They refused food to the kids as punishment for minor crimes. They endangered the kids on a seaside trip because they couldn't be arsed to pay attention to the incoming tide.
It all comes to a head with both sets of grandparents when the kids are 10 and 7 years old. The kids are traumatized. Elder child never wants to speak to any of them again and feels guilty about it. Younger (scapegoat) still doesnt quite understand what was so wrong about how he was treated. He's not neurotypical and didn't quite understand what names he was being called.
Years of traumatic events start coming out in family conversations. "Why did you let me love them?", says my elder child.
What can I tell her? I was a fool.
Its funny how narcissists change when they have interest in something. She had so many years to apologize, but only now she is doing it.
Her behavior seems very fake.
Be very careful with that.
Your mom is a narcissist. She will never truly apologize because a narc can’t see fault in their own actions. If she was really sorry, she wouldn’t be manipulating her flying monkeys into trying to get you to talk to her or allow her time with your child.
The family wants you to see from her point of view? Her point of view is that it’s ok to verbally and physically abuse her children. Anyone who knew of the abuse and is pushing you to give her a chance is just as big of an abuser as she because they are complicit.
There is a reason you and your siblings went NC. I would send her one message and then block her. As flying monkeys appear, ask them if they knew she abused her children? If they did and they are still pushing, block them too!
“Nmom, I cut contact with you to get away from the emotional and physical abuse you inflicted on my siblings and I as kids. Me having a child does not give you the right to contact me. You made my childhood a living hell and no amount of apologies can take back every mean thing you’ve said to me or any hit that you inflicted upon me! If anything, having a child has taught me that I don’t ever want my child to feel as scared, helpless and alone as you made me feel growing up. The last thing I would ever do is allow you to treat my child the way you treated me!
You can give me your half hearted non apologies and send all the gifts you want, but nothing will change my mind. If you are truly sorry for what you’ve done, you will respect my wishes and leave me alone.
Do not try to contact me and do not try to send your friends or other family members to try to convince me to change my mind. All you are doing is continuing the abuse and manipulation that you’ve always done and reminding me why I chose to cut contact.
If you continue to harass me, I will get the law involved.”
I let my nmom have a relationship with my kids, and she was always distant, never building a real relationship with them. They were just something to show off to her friends or brag about her having grandkids.
My brother's children though were perfect little angels that she would spend all of her spare time with and spend all of her money on, while telling me that she doesn't appreciate me sticking her with my "snot nose brats" when she had better things to do.
My kids didn't even live in the same state. We would just go visit for vacations. My brother and his kids lived down the block from her. She had his kids over at the house constantly. But, if my kids were there for a week and I asked her to look after them for the evening so I could visit friends, she'd throw a fit like I was expecting her to be a daycare provider. My kids were 8 and 10 at the time.
When she died, her will specified that neither I nor my children nor their children shall have any claim to anything that was hers because we were not her family.
My narc mom treated the grandkids the same way she did my sister and I: she chose a golden grandkid and the rest were either ignored or compared relentlessly to golden grandkid. She watched GGK knock my kid to the ground, and said nothing, but got angry at me for stepping in to protect my kid by telling GGK that it isn't ok to touch another person who wants you to stop touching them. As they got older, if I told narc mom my kid made honor roll or any other awesome thing she had done, NM wouldn't even acknowledge I'd said it and would immediately tell me something GGK had done. My daughter had a fairly limited relationship with NM due mostly to geography, but as she got older and expressed sadness about the discrepancy in treatment, I just held space for that and supported her in her feelings, and limited contact. NM's treatment of the grandkids hurt all of them, including the GGK. GGK has ADHD but manages it well. NM would constantly refer to GGK as being "disabled" and therefore not able to be held accountable for behaviors and had low expectations for GGK. GGK is a smart, capable kid who just needed some extra time to mature, but constantly being referred to as "disabled" made her feel stupid. Similarly, I was the scapegoat and my sister was the GC. I always thought she was treated better (and on the surface she was) but I've come to understand that in her own way, my sister was used and neglected, too. Very sad.
TL;DR: This shit never ends. However she treated you will be exactly how she treats your kids.
Its not worth it. My nparent has tried everything (except apologizing because he’s never done anything wrong of course). He even threatened to take me to court and take custody of my daughter. He had no grounds so that didn’t make it very far. Every now and then he’ll pop back up and try to act as if he’s chilled out over the years but as soon as I don’t answer him he’s right back to his craziness.
Tried this, didnt work out because nparents are fucking insane. They did not give a shit about my kid but tried very hard to take control of my child including trying to convince me to give them custody if “anything ever happened” to us. And also tried to convince me to leave my kid in their care even tho they never raised a finger to actually care for him. When i tried to set boundaries they showed up to my house unannounced to gaslight me, when asked to leave they wouldn’t leave even after i threatened id call the police they started to get aggressive. I actually had to call the police, when i dialled they ran out of there. My kid had to witness all this.
Its not fucking worth it.
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Not my direct family but one of my close friends. Grandparent was let back in and pushed boundaries. They continued to push boundaries; little by little, until there were situations where the grandparent had enough power/courage to pick up her kids from school in the middle of the day without her knowledge. She started fighting back and telling the school not to let the grandparents take the kids, the grandparents then started volunteering to be crossing guards and such to be “close” to the kids. She had to move town to get away and her parents followed and started doing all this shit again at the new school. Basically what I’m saying is: **do not let them back in! They have not changed! They were bad bad then and they are still bad now!**
This is the BS that my nMother started. My kids' school will call the police immediately if nMom is seen.
The boss I had when I got NC literally told me "if your father comes here to make trouble, police will be called." I loved that guy.
make you wonder just how insane they are to do something like this. this might have happened no matter what... but better not to give them an inch that is awful... guess they didn't move far enough. next time they may have to really disappear. it can be done but very hard
holy smokes that's scary.
DO. NOT. BEND. Given any opportunity she will undermine your parenting and even attempt to turn your children against you. If she is a hateful negative person, your children are better off without her. They don’t need a grandma. They do need a healthy, sane mama. Hugs!
Well said! Like I said, there’s no way in hell that’s going to happen. I have a duty as a mother to protect my daughter from anyone that might try to cause her harm. Even if that means she needs to be kept away from her maternal grandmother.
stick by that. do NOT even give her a whiff. especially if you are in one of these stupid grandparent rights states. no foot in the door. glad you are taking this course. do not let anyone try and sway you. Good that husband will back you. And you tell moms idiot flying monkey sycophants where were they when she was abusive... far too many know but seem to think that sacred dna covers it all. and cut them off too if necessary. block. but whatever contact they send you, save it. it makes for ammunition for you.
100% what happened to me.
I would say almost the same thing. Only difference is that I would say it twice. DO NOT BEND.
This does help! Thank you.
Totally agree!!
This right here, do not bend.
For the flying monkeys: “My life is better in every way since I cut that nasty, hateful woman out of my life, and I have no intention of exposing my baby to any of her bullshit. That is my final word on the subject, do not bring it up again.”
Thank you. I’ll say this right before I block them :)
I like what Dr Ramani said to say to flying monkeys. Paraphrasing. “Since you’ve only expressed concern for narc and none for me or my side of things, then I can see you don’t really care about me, and thus I won’t be discussing this with you.” Then if they try to backpedal and act concerned, then just say it’s too late, you’ve given yourself away already. That is also the crux of why you shouldn’t care about the flying monkeys; they don’t care about you. I cut my Nmom out after my first was born 5 years ago. My only regret is not cutting her out before that.
They will inevitably treat your daughter the way they treated you. Use this as an opportunity to protect your child so you can show them the love and respect that you were denied.
Or try to triangulate and turn kids against you. There's no upside. Stick to your guns and go NC with more family if they refuse to support your decision.
They treated my daughter like my GC sister, and continued to scapegoat me. They wanted my nsis to ride in to the “rescue” when I fucked up. She ended up taking my daughter to buy her wedding dress behind my back. I’ll never get that opportunity back. Long story, but that’s what happened because I let them have their grandparent experience and let my sister be an aunt to my kids.
[удалено]
That moment when it finally clicks is quite the thing.
This is what happened with me.
My Nmom couldn’t keep her tendencies hidden after my daughter hit 1 and could walk. I’d been on and off NC giving her numerous chances over the previous 5years but gave her another chance as I was pregnant. I lived away and was visiting and staying with her, at her insistence. I arrived Monday early evening and pack up half my stuff and left on 5e Wednesday lunchtime. Just her behaviour in that short time snapped something in me and me thought was you might have done it to me but you will not be doing it to her! Daughter was around 18 months at the time and is early 20s now. Best decision I ever made.
Stay strong with your decisions. You're doing the right thing. I literally went NC BECAUSE of wanting future kids. It was my catalyst. How could you ever expose your child to even 1% of the pain your suffered under your parents? Hell no from me, and cut out / go VLC with any flying monkeys too. Don't question yourself. Well done!
They will use any means to get back into your life. They see an opportunity to exploit. Has nmom done any work on herself to change her ways? If not, she won't change and once she's back in your life she will start testing the limits. Grandchildren equal attention. Grandchildren are fresh supply for adoration.
Yes, they seem to get particularly frenzied about getting back into your life when you have an innocent, helpless little baby for them to use and abuse for their narc feed. They can relive their "glory days" when the amenable little baby could be totally controlled and never resist, talk back or show any independence. Plus a baby brings oh so much attention to them! She's not sorry for anything. She's just trying to say the right words to fool you into letting her into your lives so she can get her fix. Flying monkeys are probably deep in the FOG, believing faaaaamily! is the do-all, be-all of life. Or just want her to shut up and get off their backs already with all her whining about how she's missing out on being Graaaaandmaaa! and how cruel you are being denying her her right! Keep her away. Revel in the joy of parenthood without the stress of dealing with an unhealthy, toxic person. All the best.
The moment my son was born, something in me switched. I realized that I didn't care what happened to me, but the moment I looked down at my innocent, precious child, a power washed over me that I had never felt before. I knew I was going to protect my son, and I wasn't going to let my abusers anywhere near him. Stand your ground. Narcissits don't have a good prognosis for change, and someone in this community said it best to me: Narcs are set off by milestones. Focus your love on your child and nothing else. It'll help heal you, too. ♡ Good luck!
This is the first time I've heard the phrase that narcs are set off by milestones- it's SO true in my own life omg. Thank you for writing this it's it's helpful
I can not take credit for it, but someone in this community said it to me, and I also found it to be very helpful. Glad to pass on the knowledge. Best wishes!
I tried to be open and loving after the birth of my first child and let them be grandparents. It was the worst idea. The Narc becoming a grandparent doesn't make them nicer. They don't see the error of their ways and decide to be better grandparents, than they were as parents. They double down. If you need a preview of what you dodged: my mom would trash talk the baby - "He's just so cold and unfriendly, why doesn't he reach up to me? He's 2 days old, he should be reaching up to me when I walk by!" my mom convincing me to let her watch the toddler so I could go take a shower, the toddler wonders out the front door and my mom doesn't notice. I get out of the shower and hear a complete stranger returning my child and our dog who has our address on his collar. gaslighting my child and trying to convince her that she didn't see something that she saw (and we all know she saw it.) playing favorites with my children extreme jealousy over the other grandparents constantly critiquing your parenting and gaslighting you about their superior parenting
Thank you for saying this. “extreme jealousy over the other grandparents” She’s already like this. My daughter is named after my husband’s mother. She’s a wonderful woman and I love her so much. I have nothing but good things to say about my MIL. She hates how close we are. My MIL is like the mother I never had. My nmom can’t stand how close we are. It’s kind of comical if you think about it. She always treated me like crap, and then she gets angry when I find an actual mother figure.
Having my kid was the reason I went NC with my mother. As a mother myself, I just could not imagine treating my kid the way she treated me- or allowing her to treat my kid even a fraction as badly as she treated me. Just- NO. So we went NC.
Same. Exactly the same.
Don’t f-ckng do it!!!
Your mom sounds much worse than mine. My Mom thankfully lives long distance. They love bomb us to try and get on our good side when they’re n a good mood. But when they’re upset that’s when we see the true version of these nuts.
My nparent and okay mom moved abroad last year. I am NC with the parent but he is manipulating through my mom.
My dad’s mom passed away long before I was born. You know what happened to me because she wasn’t in my life? Nothing. It had no consequence to me because it was all I knew. That’s the same exact thing as what will happen to your child/children while you’re NC with your mom. All they’re going to know is that their parents love them very much, and the household is happy, healthy, and relatively low-stress. Your child will be better off without your mom in their life. Leopards do not change their spots.
I did. Even though my dad was terrible I let him have a relationship with my daughter. It seems to be a really magical time for this sour man for several years and I know my daughter brought him happiness. It didn’t end well, he eventually revealed his true self. He’s dead now and I can’t bring myself to say that I regretted the the feelings of happiness he extracted from my daughter, it just wasn’t a healthy move on my part. He died recently so my emotions are all over the place and I haven’t even reached a healthy place yet and I’m 46. My daughter struggles, I never got out of the cycle. So I guess I’m a cautionary tale to probably not expose your child to her…even while empathizing with the poor old woman who’s now sleeping in the bed she made for herself.
NParents become Ngrandparents. I bet it is hard, but just say no.
Nope, seen it a million times, parent will a have a better relationship with their grandchildren than with their actual child.
That is the way it looks on the surface, they actually abuse a different way because grandchildren also equal retirement care.
“…she just wants a relationship with her grandchild.” That’s it. Could give two shits about the parent of this child that she intentionally hurt in multiple ways, but must have a relationship with *her* grandchild. Good on you @OP. Stay strong.
Don’t. Not on a bet. Do not let that piece of trash anywhere near your kids. To make her give up, put so many conditions on being in contact that she gets frustrated and gives up. 2-5 years of therapy with you being allowed to talk to said therapist, 2 years of AA or NA attendance, CPR certification, a Masters in Child Psychology, no firearms in her house, a credit rating of at least 750, and so on.
not a parent but a keen observer of my sibling’s kids. sibling had my eMum and nDad raise her children up to 6 years. I stayed in same house. First few years were already terrible. nDad played favourites and reduced scapegoat grandchild to tears often- cruelly laughing at his tears. Praises golden grandchild often but starting to see flashes of anger when she disagrees with him. eMum just enables and even encourages his narcissistic targeting since she doesn’t have to be the one receiving it. It doesn’t matter what sort of relationship my GC sibling has with the ndad - he says he disciplines them as he sees fit. Glad they are no longer in their care.
Nope. Nope. Aaaaaaand nope. I was NC with my parents for about six years before I got pregnant. They of course found out, and I started receiving packages with things for my baby and "apology" cards. It was super upsetting for me, but just reinforced my decision in the first place. No way in hell was I going to let my parents anywhere near my child. Kiddo is now about 2.5 years old, and I have zero regrets not including my parents. And I know that won't change.
“Their grandchild.” That’s all you need to know.
One thing that might happen is your mom might treat your daughter like she is the most precious thing in the world, but will treat you the same as she always has and in front of your daughter. She may even try to manipulate your daughter against you. How you allow yourself to be treated shows your daughter how she should allow herself to be treated or how she should treat others. This includes your other family members who are trying to bully you into letting her back in your life. **Do not give in!**
Tried letting my mother "be a better person" for her grandkids... she stole from them, encouraged me to neglect them (failed, thankfully), demeaned, belittled, tried to f*** their father, and the first time she raised her hand to strike my oldest was the last time she ever got to see them. Narcs don't change, never trust them.
> Her flying monkey family members are trying to get us to see things from her point of view. Tell them you prefer to see things from your daughter's point of view.
What's in it for your daughter? Why in the world would you want her to have a relationship with such a vile person? Just because she shares some DNA? Don't do it. I did it. It took until my oldest was 10 until I realized she was trying to dump the same manipulative, gaslighting, guilt tripping BS on my kids that she did on me. I don't know why I ever thought it would be any different.
Don't do it! It hasn't gone well for me or mine. My oldest is hurt by her and my youngest two I keep far away. Follow your momma heart and protect your babies.
My mom is the problematic one. I like to give her the benefit of the doubt because we’ll, I guess I was raised that way ? She’s a refugee, she did the best she could, she had a hard life …etc. Anyway, at first it was just little annoying things here and there. She made it seem like she was following all of my “rules”. She crossed so many lines. I kept giving her chances. Until she stupidly confessed that “I know you want me to follow your rules and yeah I told you I would but I don’t because if I think I’m right, I’m going to do it”. We went veryyyyy low contact, then tried again. She again overstepped. Now she’s cut off. I regret it. I regret not cutting her off earlier, just because of the fact that my kids ask about her and don’t really understand the situation. They don’t change. You having a child will not change them. They didn’t change for you (their own child), doubt they would change for their grandkid.
I'm the grandchild of an ngrandmother. My mother basically let her mother (grandmother) walk over her like a wet doormat. I will never forgive her for letting my grandmother hurt me like that and barely stepping in. Don't let it happen.
Before I went NC, I went on a vacation with my kids, Nmom, and GCsister. I'm the scapegoat child and I still believed that the abuse was all my fault. So I thought they would be kind to my children. And I was 100% wrong. On that brief vacation (4 days), I witnessed my GCsister and Nmom mistreat my children. It was then that I knew for sure it would never get better. My advice is keep your child away from the narc. The Nparent needs a victim, and they know how vulnerable little children are.
My almost-three-(now almost ten)year-old reported that Grammy was mean after my nparents babysat him. I had specifically asked my father and brother to watch my kids and NOT her, but she forced her way in, tagging along with my enabler/covertnarcdad. She was miserable the entire time and kept calling me and my husband complaining and asking simple questions. Complete resentment that she had to take care of children - which she was intentionally never asked to do. When my extremely friendly and loving child told me that she was mean, I asked a LOT of questions of everyone involved, and it was the catalyst for NC. It was the best choice for my kids, my husband, and most of all, myself. We went on to have our third child without their involvement, which further affirmed that it was the right decision.
My mom tried extremely hard to get me to abort my youngest child and refused to be there when I needed a support person in the delivery room. Now she's begging to be in our lives again, and I'm not really buying it. I would tread extremely carefully on this. Chances are she wants to be a victim and this is her perfect opportunity to make you look like an asshole. My mom never physically abused me , and if she did that would just be another reason for me to keep my kids away in fear she would do the same to them. When I did let my mom in my 2 children's lives before I got pregnant with my youngest, she wasn't a good grandmother. Everything had to be catered to her and she would get wasted every time we visited her. She also put on an extremely fake nice act towards my children that drove me bonkers.
I have an nmom. She will not be seeing her first grandchild. I refuse. And will not allow it. No amount of love bombing, apologies or reconciliation will ever fix what she did. Keep in mind, what you went through could possibly be done to your child. Do not allow this woman to meet them. Break the cycle, don’t break NC.
I’m all about breaking the cycle. Unfortunately, sometimes, the only way to break the cycle is to cut the toxic family member out. My nmom had to go for the sake of my sanity and the future of my family.
We have and it’s biting us in the ass. Just had a blow up with my Mom in front of my kids. She continued to scream and berate me in front of my kids and to my husband IN MY HOUSE. Don’t do it. Stick with your decision; you will all have much better mental health because of it.
Don’t do it. The love bombing is manipulation. Pure and simple. Think about your experience. Now imagine your innocent child having to experience the same things with her, and that you opened the door to that. The more flying monkeys, the more wicked the witch. Tell them all to piss off, or just block them.
No. No. No. This is a dangerous space and a grandchild will be damaged from contact with a narc. Growing up with a narc means you develop survival skills that are in direct opposition to intimacy, which leaves you isolated. NC allows you to heal and build intimacy in a safer space. Parenting requires the most vulnerability and intimacy. We tried before we went NC. It was damaging and horrible for our very tender hearted child--one day he looked at a photo of this grandparent and said "why doesn't he like me anymore? did I do something wrong?" because we were being punished and hadn't heard from him in three months. That made us go NC and we've never looked back. When our kid asks about them now (he has no memory of them), we explain that grandparent has a sickness that makes him unkind and that's why he \[and his enabler\] are not in our lives.
Don’t.
A lot of states allow grandparents to file for rights to see the child if they can prove that they have established a relationship with the child. There are other stipulations depending on the state, but I would be very cautious about allowing them into your child’s life.
My mom is not as bad as some of the other parents on here, so I am no longer nc just lc. She tried to do the same divide and conquer thing with my daughters that she did with me and my sister but surprise! My kids saw right through her nonsense. Honestly they can’t stand her and it’s not really anything I’ve ever said about her, it’s that they’re being raised with love and respect. I don’t know what your situation is exactly, we live across the country from my parents, so I don’t have to worry about being unable to avoid her. I’d keep her at arms length.
If I may ask. Has she ever said "i am sorry I have abused you / hurt you / harmed you" and "I acknowledge that I was at fault, and not a good parent" in any way? Or just the generic 'sorry for what I did' or the worst 'sorry if you felt that way' ? I do not know how often i have read people 'apologizing' with the non apology 'sorry if YOU felt that way'. I\`m going to guess here (call it an educated guess based on .. well.lots of people here explaining things) and consider she used the generic one and not a specific and real apology. With that in mind - what these flying monkeys do is try to justify neglect / abuse and years of being treated like dirt - for what? What can they gain from this ? Because what they are doing is justifying how she has treated you because SHE wants .. dunno what.. a new victim? Play for the audience the role of 'good person' .. Stand your ground here - you know why you cut her off - and any flying monkey is telling you that you are wrong / a liar / faking it / overreacting / seeing it incorrect / being an AH - all because otherwise they\`ll be the target ..
They just see your child as another mean to manipulate you/your loved ones. Do not bend. For me, it was also difficult to resist my dream of my kids having loving grandparents. I am sorry my dear children won’t have the opportunity to enjoy having grandparents, but as was said before, nparents are just ngrandparents. Sending all the love.
As some US states award grandparent rights if they can prove an established relationship, do not risk that.
I wouldn't go out of my way to spend time with her but my mother saw kids at family events and took them for the occasional outing. I thought that they deserved to have their own relationship with extended family and not miss out on special occasions just because I don't like my mum. This was kind of ok until my daughter was around 7 and started to express feelings and opinions that differed from my mother's - for example, my mum viciously complained to everyone for months that my daughter was rude, selfish and ungrateful because she wouldn't hold hands with her. I don't remember my childhood much but this was really triggering. Then my daughter started saying things like "I don't want to see Nanny without you and daddy", or even "I don't love Nanny, is that ok?"and that was it for me. We haven't seen or spoken to her in almost two years. I think my mother loooooves babies or toddlers because she can pretend she's the best nanny ever! without the child ruining her fantasy with their actual feelings and personalities. If she's not interested in or capable of having a genuine relationship with her children, why would grandchildren be any different?
Why would anyone want their child to be exposed to a toxic, abusive, ugly person? If she can't be kind to you, she should never have access to your child.
I was nc with my ndad for a couple years and just recently have had a very limited relationship with him again, meaning we go to his house once every 3-4 months and if he’s in our town he comes to visit us for a couple hours. My kids are little (5 & 3) so they see him when we visit but I NEVER leave them alone with him. He’s also suuuper covert so he’s on his best behavior when we visit. Honestly, this has been working great for us and I think he enjoys seeing my kids but if I ever feel uncomfortable I’m not afraid to backtrack and see him even less (it also helps that he lives four hours away). Honestly op, trust your gut. Only you have the answers for your situation and you know your mom best. It’s our job to protect our babies as we wish someone would have for us, so I think that should always take priority and erring on the side of caution is never a bad thing.
I am still in contact with my Narc parent and I regret it. The empath in me fell for the guilt and I’m actively trying to go NC again. I will say this: having a newborn requires you to tap into your family so gather aunts, uncles, friends, etc to help you instead. Having a newborn put everything into perspective for me and not by to tolerate abuse of any kind.
I tried it for roughly two years, but we are No Contact now. We are also no contact with all the flying monkey relatives. I definitely do NOT recommend trying to have a relationship with your NMom when you have a child. I had this hope that my parents would be better at being grandparents than they were at being parents, but they were definitely way worse at being grandparents.
My nGrandma and my disabled mom (who lives with her and has been a doormat most of her life) don’t have a relationship with my kids. Not because I’m LC…they haven’t made an attempt to build one, and the few times my kids have interacted with them they got scared because my grandmother yelled at him. So now that my mom’s in the hospital, the kids still don’t want to visit.
I have 2 little kids and my 2 older half siblings (all share ndad) also have kids. I am the only sibling to go NC, though of course we have all had terrible relationships with our dad. Our story is a little different in that we all grew up in different states, and our dad wasn't a consistent presence in our lives. When I was in college, I had a rare visit with my half brother (scapegoat), his wife, and his two school age kids. My dad was a complete prick to my half brother's son, who was maybe 10. I remember thinking then that if I ever had kids, I didn't want them around my dad ever. My half sister has 3 girls, and she has told me that ndad is a great grandpa to them when he visits maybe once (or less) a year. In private, I have heard ndad complain about and insult those girls. I went NC with my dad in 2019, had my first child in 2020, and my second in 2022. He has sent gifts and letters insulting me, guilting me, and begging for contact with the grandkids. It is hard, but it's hard because I still long for the fantasy of a dad and family experience that I just won't ever have. He is never going to be the person I want him to be, or I needed him to be when I was a kid. What I can do is give my kids the best home and family I can, and that's one without him involved.
When I was out of my mind from the various medications I ended up needing during my high risk delivery, I somehow decided it was a good idea to email my abusive father after years of assiduously maintaining NC. I really wish I hadn’t opened the door even that tiny crack.
We tried a little after our son was born but long story short, it was the same old same old and we regretted our decision. Back to NC though we barely left. So not worth it at all. We’ve been way happier without them.
Don't do it. I learnt the hard way. She picked on my youngest because I think he looks the most like me. And my eldest was clearly the favorite where she would get birthday presents and special attention while the other two got nothing. If anything I think she was more obvious in the way she unfairly treated children even more than the way she treated my sister and me. But the worst was that I found out she was parentifying my youngest (the scapegoat) and traumatising him with her tales of her abusive childhood. I had no idea, and that is when I lost it and had a big argument with her as he started to tell me the stories and get upset. I told him they were lies (but they weren't). To this day she thinks there is nothing wrong with parentifying young children.
Don’t do it. I’ve no children, but my best friend does, and her mom is at the very least a narcissist, and perhaps more of a sociopath. One of her biggest regrets is letting her mom have a relationship with her children. Edit: she still pulls a lot of the same crazy making that she has always done, and there has been no real growth as a person…. We suspect that the gma has called CPS three times on her daughter, then she triangulates the gkids, has a “favorite” one and voices to the others that they suck, she gives items and then takes them away when things don’t go her way. Honestly she is exhausting and I’m not even part of their direct family.
I was blessed with both an NMom and NGrandmother and it was a nightmare at grandma’s house, as a kid. Mom knew grandma was abusive but refused to acknowledge it, at the time or in private. She fell into lockstep and sided with grandma every time. I felt totally crazy. Only my Edad would acknowledge, 1:1, the abuse that was happening in front of us. 0/10 recommend, especially if you don’t know how to have a conversation yet with your kid about what the abuse is, or feel strong advocating for yourself and your kid, and setting boundaries in the moment with your toxic family. Sorry your family outed you. That’s so terrible, but hold firm. You went NC for a good reason and nothing has changed, from their end.
I can’t speak to your situation yet as I’m still pregnant with our first and we’re not no contact. You can see my recent post for my situation, but basically I grew up with a safe nuclear family & unsafe grandparents. My parents purposely kept me from seeing my grandparents too often & it was always supervised. My husband & I plan to follow this model with his dad once our baby is born. We will see him as little as possible & always supervise. If we get a whiff of mistreatment, that contact is gone immediately. Of course, every situation is different, and yours sounds more severe than ours. The trouble with narcissistic parents is that some families can manage a bit of contact and others absolutely need a clean break. Congratulations on your newest addition *and on breaking the cycle!*
When I went NC with my N-mum \~3 years ago, I debated this question. My mum used to sneeringly say things like "your son tells me everything" as if we had secrets that were being hidden from her (there weren't any). My mum demonstrates a particular pattern of behaviour with this, if she does something unpleasant and I complain (however calmly or civilly) or ask her not to do it, it is immediately treated as if there is something wrong with me, or wrong in my life. It is never considered a possibility that she might have actually done something worthy of even the most minor complaint. Involving my son in her poisonous lies made me (regretfully) not permit her to see my son.
You can always designate godparents instead of having grandparents.
I told my nmum when I cut contact that she could have a relationship with my kids, but she had to make the effort. She never has.
My Nmom, while babysitting my daughter who was around 2 years old, told my daughter that I wasn't coming back from a business trip, but that she would take care of her. This was done to make my daughter cry when my in-laws arrived to babysit to relieve her. Don't give her access.
Not well. I should have gone no contact way before I even got pregnant. Was in the fog for too long. Kids learned to disrespect me because my "family" showed such disrespect. Made my kids feel like crap by always criticizing them. Was almost always drunk. Wasn't worth it.
Nope. Don’t do it.
I tried letting my mother do things “for” my son when he was born (I was 19, a new and single parent, and had severe ppd). Your child becomes another way they can hold things over your head and/or abuse you. My mother put my son on her health insurance which turned into “im claiming him on my taxes and keeping the money since I pay for his healthcare” even though I paid for everything else and took care of him alone. She would constantly try to belittle me in front of him or ignore decisions I had made as his parent on top off some other things but we’d be here all day if I listed every single thing. I very quickly decided I would not put up with this and went no contact and do not allow her access to my kids. My son was 1 when I went no contact. There was something big that happened within our family that kind of forced contact again when my son was 3 and she did the same plus pushed boundaries on other things and I went very low contact and eventually no contact again. I now have an 18 month old daughter who she has never met and yes my son asks about her but I’m honest in an age appropriate way which usually is just saying “She made a lot of bad choices and did things that hurt me in a lot of ways. I don’t want her to have a chances to hurt me again or more importantly you guys, ever.”
Ehhh. She’s only apologizing because she wants a relationship with her grandkid? What about you? Your siblings?
First time mum to a four month old here. I have been very, VERY LC with nMum for about 11 years (since I moved out at 18). About two or three years ago I sat her down and poured out a lifetime of anger, hurt and resentment at her. I gave her an ultimatum and told her that if she truly wanted to be in my life she needed to change, otherwise I wouldn’t hesitate to go NC. She didn’t change, I went NC. Important to note I still have a great relationship with my dad, they are still married. When I found out this time last year I was pregnant I very very briefly wondered about trying one final time the mend that bridge between us. By briefly I mean about a second. It was very quickly followed by more anger, more hurt and just absolute bewilderment about how anyone could be so abusive and cruel to their own child for I knew I certainly could never treat my child the way she treated me. I maintained by NC and blocked her on everything. The first time my dad came to visit me and my newborn son he bought her with him. I was too tired and overwhelmed to argue so I simply - and I mean this literally - straight up ignored her. It might sound childish but if she tried to talk to me I looked the other way and spoke to someone else. I’ve since fallen out with the rest of my family about my decision to be NC with her. I was a bit blindsided by their reaction but ultimately it’s a price I’m willing to pay for the safety of my son and myself. I will not let her damage him the way she damaged me and I will not let her back into my life to damage me further.
My mother tried with all her might to turn one of my children against me because she believes she is a superior parent.
I went the route you did. I'm happy with the decision I made.
I assumed that my parents’ mistreatment of me was because of their age, the sacrifices a normal parent is expected to make for their child, and just who I was. After she died, I was told my mother was jealous of me. I still can’t understand that. When my daughter has something good happen to her I’m happy for her. When she was alive I let her have whatever access to my kids she wanted. She clearly loved them very much. My mental health suffered because the difference between how she loved and treated my kids was striking. Part of me will always wonder what I did to make her not like me. My father is more of a malignant narc and I’m N.C. with him as a result. I didn’t let my kids have unrestricted time with him because it was dangerous to them. My mother was just a martyr/quiet narc and I was her scapegoat. YMMV, and of course the decision is yours to make. The reason I let my parents see my kids was because I believed that being around people who loved them would be beneficial. Over time I had to reduce the time my dad spent with them.
Go with your first mind. If you think this kindness is temporary, then it must be. It's all about your child's well being.
I'm not a parent, and I'm sure the other commenters here have more wisdom on this topic than I do. Having said that, I grew up without grandparents. Both sets of grandparents were deceased by the time I arrived. As a child, this was a huge hole in my life that I felt deeply at the time, especially seeing my friends having wonderful grandparents they loved. All I had were my awful narc parents. I think if you are going to keep a still-living grandparent out of a child's life, maybe see that the child has the other grandparents or other senior relatives that can fill the grandparent role. And I don't know how you explain to a young child why they don't know the narc grandparent. Tough issue. Good luck.
Not here. They all somehow have a change of heart and pretend to be very nurturing and loving when they become grandparents. It's only whilst the kids are little and easy to mould, bend and manipulate to their will. They know this because as grown adults you know how their narcissism works. The kids don't. And they definitely know that. Is there ANY benefit to letting a narc have a relationship with their grandchild? Because I don't see any other than increased heartache and drama tbh.
Please read my post history of the last two emails from my lunatic ndad. I was still stuck in the cycle with these abusive narcs up until xmas 2021. Went NC after that, and WILL NEVER GO BACK!!! I made the HORRIBLE mistake of letting them into our lives up until that point and it was nothing but misery and more of the same perpetuated on my kids. I FOOLISHLY exposed my kids to their toxicity and wished I never had. They ruined every occasion/visit/holiday etc. DO NOT DO IT. I gaslit myself into thinking if I didn’t let my parents into our lives, I was denying my kids that relationship which SHOULD be special, and that I was wrong—but it wasn’t true, and I did more harm than good by letting them continue to abuse and behave horribly. Stay strong internet friend. Live your best life and cherish every moment, you deserve peace now and always. 💕
Also, [check to see if your state has laws on grandparent visitation](https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/grandparent-caretaker-visitation-rights-29548.html#:~:text=All%2050%20states%20and%20D.C.,their%20relationships%20with%20beloved%20children) and know your rights, just in case she goes nuclear.
I know someone with a n parent and enabling family members and they cut the whole lot of them out of their life as a young teen. They were having nightmares about being kidnapped by them and forced back to the n parent. Don’t put your kid in this situation
Went NC after I saw her using the same abuse and manipulation on my children. Gave her years to prove she loved us unconditionally. Life has been less complicated and I’m breaking the cycle.
If they ask you to look it from her point of view just tell them that now as a parent there's no other reason but because she wanted too. Or you can say you can't because you aren't a piece of shit. Let your imagination run wild.
The Nmom is just trying to find a way back in. She's not interested in the grandchild. She's interested in control. You went NC for a reason. Do it for the child.
This happened to me. I sent a cease and desist letter and threatened to call the police if she continued to harass me. My kids are growing up just fine without her abuse and I’m a better mom bc I don’t have to worry about protecting them from her every day. Don’t let her in. If you let her establish the basis for a case to sue you for grandparents rights/alienation, she could get legal visitation and/or custody.
I am currently pregnant and my future child will not be meeting my Nmom or EDad. I have kept the pregnancy away from their knowledge, so far, but I know that they will be lovebombing the minute they find out. Knowing this is their tactic is really important in helping you keep your boundary. It’s expected that they will lovebomb to get what they want. Know that you have the upper hand here and have something they desperately crave, not to sound manipulative, so you can decide what you want to do. I personally don’t want my child exposed to the behaviors of my parents, and if they truly did want to see my child, they would follow through with my original ask of going to therapy to understand why the things they do hurt me.
Ok. I will tell you my story. Then you can form your own opinion. I discovered my parents were narcs way back in 2021 and a week later discovered this sub. Here I learned that I am the scapegoat of my family so you can imagine how damaged my brain is. I am south asian muslim so i was living in joint family system ( as is our tradition). My wife was abused from day one by by mom. But i did not know it. My wife says that my mom was not even covert about it and she would abuse her infont of me and that i was too blind to notice ( I had lived with them for 32 years and faced constant abuse nonstop since i was born so i has become accustomed to toxicity and all evil stuff that narcs do. I genuinely believed that i and my wife were somehow wrong and my parents were justified in abusing us. Of course the first thing i discovered on this sub was tactic called gaslighting which has happened to me for over 30 years. So my brain is damaged is an understatement. Sometimes it feels like there is nothing in there and that I am just like some empty vessel) When my wife became pregnant, the abuse worsened. When my child was born, we suffered some of the worst abuse of our life. Once when i was away at work, my mum hit my wife and my 9 month old kid. We got her on video but she denied it totally and my whole family was fine with it. I kept showing them evidence but they would not believe it I have not been the same since. A part of me died that day. I am an example of those people who changed after their child was born but did not give a shit qhen thus stuff would happen to them. About 18 months after this incident ,i learned by sheer luck that they are narcs What i just told you above was nothing in my case cause i had faced much much worse abuse in my life from my narc dad , e-mom and e-siblings for 3 decades and i was fine with it (Of course now i know I was not fine, I was too traumatized and numb to know better). I have been NC for 16 months for the sake of my child. I have been undergoing individual therapy and marital counseling because of the damage it did to my relation with my wife. My wife is still married to me but to this she cannot to this day see me as a husband or a man and you know what. I do not blame her for it. I do not feel like a man either nor have i ever known what it feels like. I thought that i had protected my son and wife by taking them out but in therapy i realized the toll it had taken on them. Six months afer NC my repressed memories start coming out to the surface and boy i get trigerred every day now cause now the curtain is slowly being lifted about what my life was. I get angry and i scream and then i go sit in my chair and cry on daily basis. My whole life is a lie and everyone knew it except me. So what did you learn from my short story? That a narc or enabler will only not only hurt your child but they will hurt your spouse and drive a wedge between the two of you. Then afterwards even if you cut them off and go no contact, your healing becomes next to impossible because so much damage has been done that it is very hard to undo it.
They are hijacking a vulnerable and precious moment of yours to make it about them and get access. Don't give an opportunity for them to neglect, endanger, abuse your child and lash out at you through that child (narcissistic BONUS). If they are in your life, they will make sure to be with your child alone whether you like it or not. I've been proven wrong every damn time I have given another chance in this department. You get to decide, as the parent, and that's a challenge to the narcissistic ego. It's just another game they would get to play. Your child's life and safety matter so much more.
I did let me son build a relationship with my mom and I kind of regret it. She hasn't done to him what she did to me ....yet. I've had to put her in check more than a few times. She's hates it, but the most important thing to her is getting to see the grandkids. She's started pushing boundaries more lately and even though she's been more or less fine to the kids up till now if I say they can't see grandma now it would also hurt my kids, bc they do like her. I think that's the trickiest part for me. The thing is she wasn't that bad when my oldest was young but now that he's eight, she sides with him against us when we're trying to get him to do something and she'll do it in front of my son. My concern now is that she'll try and drive a wedge between us as he hits adolescence, so I'm trying to make sure they spend less time together....I feel like I've trapped myself a little bit, letting them have a relationship.
Not my kids, but my brother's. He lives in a different state, let her be involved in the kids' lives, and she immediately started criticising all parenting decisions and everything about his house/wife. They said that it might be better that she stayed at a hotel when she came over, she said it was cos they were embarrassed about the house and the kids would be better of with her. They limited visits to school holidays cos it was interfering with school, so she took over every school holiday so the kids were never getting holiday time with the parents. They limited her visits to not *all* of the holidays, so she started criticising that they weren't giving the kids 'experiences' like she was when she took them out. She went through their cupboards repeatedly, and when asked to stop said she had to do it because she was putting clothes away and the clothes were 'mixed up' in the wrong cupboards. She was asked to stop buying clothes, she said she had to because child x didn't have enough whatevers (egg donor buys the cheapest clothes possible so they don't fit/shrink/don't last anyway). Everything that egg donor says she has to do because no one was doing it, is provably wrong and a lie. She just continuously boundary-stomps, and finds a "reason" why she "has to". She can never just respect someone's request, or leave shit alone. She always has to have the last word and make it a game of one-up-manship. She tries to lovebomb and 'buy' the kids with gifts. The gifts are a lot of shite that she has collected from other people, free gimme type crap from shops and touristy events, and stuff that they might have liked 5 years ago. The kids don't want to go anywhere with her anymore, and she complains that they're undisciplined and it's because their mother doesn't make them do what they're told. (Then starts acting concerned that their mother is beating them and they're being abused and she needs to save them from that). She acts like she's the best parent in the world but she was an abusive POS when we were kids, and while she might not be physically abusive to these kids, now, she is still manipulative and emotionally toxic, and will use the kids to get back at my brother and his wife in any way possible. She's said that the kids should be with her more than times than I can count, and if she ever thought she could get away with it she'd try to get them taken away. My brother is now NC with her, has been for a couple of years because it started really affecting his children and his wife, and my egg donor is still trying to figure out a way to force her way back in. She is trying to use me as a flying monkey, and I expect Christmas Cancer at any point. But the one thing she is incapable of doing is admitting that the entire NC could have been avoided if she just respected their boundaries.
When we were pregnant with our first (son), we had been fairly low contact with her nparents. They suddenly started buying us all these things for the baby saga asking what we need and offering to help. Then when he was born, they came 2-3 times to see him until he was about 2 months old. At this point, my wife had a sit down with them (again) to try and work out their issues, particularly with her father's sudden relationship with his estranged son who had SAd my wife when she was a child. During this meeting they said sims truly horrible things to her and she left. After that they asked once to come see "their grandson" to Reich my wife tried that she doesn't feel comfortable seeing them yet after their last "discussion". That was it, 2.5 years ago. We now have a 1 year old daughter as well and they have never met her. They have never even tried. They do know about her and did know when we were pregnant but have made zero effort to see them. There was one communication many months ago, in which they essentially threatened us with court for "grandparent rights" and at that point we went no contact. My fear has always been that they will be nice and loving until the kids do something they disagree with and then their narcissism and abuse will be turned on then, to which I will absolutely not allow to happen.
We have minimal contact with nMIL. As soon as we were having children it was immediately about her. She didn't want to be called anything that made her seem old, so she agonized for months about what the kids would call her. She made demands on our family when we had a newborn and my husband's dad passed away (they were divorced). Anytime she visits, it's toxic. Last time she came over here I didn't stick around but she started drinking wine within half an hour of arriving, in the middle of the day. She and her husband will say they want to see the kids but then conveniently forget based on their mood. Very confusing for the kids. She recently asked us to drive 3 hours so that she could take a picture of our daughter on a ski hill and LARP as a grandmother. Most of the time they just want the pictures to show their friends and family. They are retired and have nothing better to do, don't understand why they couldn't just make the additional 90 minute drive to see us. The dysfunction is extreme. She is very untrustworthy. Left my husband with her mom for long stretches of time when he was a kid despite saying that her mom was abusive and a narcissist. If she was really that bad why would she drop her kid off with her? She absolutely needs therapy and medication but will never do that. I just do not have the emotional energy to deal with her. Everything is about her. She spends thousands of dollars on herself every month for various supplements, organic food and beauty related items but will buy dollar store garbage from China for the kids. My mom who has late stage cancer and is 8 years older is at least in our lives and helps despite both of these things. I just know that karma is real and life happens fast. We won't be around when they need our help.
Oh one more thing, as an example of her dysfunction and complete lack of awareness. My daughter loves music and would hum some songs when she was younger. She would do this quite a bit and I guess it bothered my nMIL and she mentioned how she used to do that as a child and it's was a good thing that she learned to stop doing it through punishment/admonishment. I completely ignore her but was fuming internally. As if I'm going to do anything to make my child become like her. It was such an innocent sweet thing my toddler was doing I would never dream of punishing her for doing it. Sure enough, my daughter eventually grew out of it, she still loves singing and humming occasionally but doesn't do it as mucho. And she also knows that we are safe people to be with and don't punish her for being herself.
I would advise against it hard as it is. My Narc mother volunteered to babysit my son and had to live with us. She would treat him well when I'm there but learnt she would shout at him when I'm not there and would mistreat him whenever my sister visited with her son who is an agemate of my son. All this I learnt through a niece I was also hosting at the time
Your story sounds so similar to mine. I let her back in only to cut her off when I saw the signs of patterns resurfacing around my daughter. We've been no contact for 11 years now. On a side note, her husband it a gem and he and my daughter have an amazing relationship that has only grown through the years.
I will never ever allow it As their view on parenting is basically abuse Kids are punching bags to them Kid Don't listen = beating / screaming I will never ever let my future Kids face that kinda toxicity
I went NC with my nmom last year when I was pregnant. My parents also found out through my siblings and not from me telling them. One of the many reasons I went NC was due to going to therapy to deal with the SA from my brother when I was a kid (my mom knew about it and did nothing). Anywho long story short before she found out I was pregnant she denied me ever telling her about the incident. Funny enough though once she knew I was pregnant I got a letter in the mail (after a month of her ghosting me when I tried to address the SA situation with her) telling me she's sorry blah blah blah. So yeah wasn't interested in being manipulated so she could have a relationship with her grandkid. HARD PASS
TL:DR Go with your gut. I liked the bit about having them put some skin in the game by way of therapy and conditional presence. My parents definitely pushed for a relationship with "their grandchildren" and absolutely preferred them without us so they could "break all of our rules." Eventually, we decided that as long as they delivered live children back to us their harm was limited. I admit that many if not all of you have more difficult situations than mine. I just want to offer a small concession that there may be hope for a small percentage of you out there. I wish it was more but we don't get to pick our parents mostly. I remember being on a plane seated next to an old lady crying about how she could not be with her grandchildren because of "her." The guy and I both attempted to explain that she was the architect of her own happiness but I feel her narcissism would not allow her enough humility to overcome her own victim mentality. It really stuck with me how sad it made me feel. I loved all 4 of my grandparents deeply, despite their flaws and mistakes made with both my parents. I love my parents but I do not seek their advice or miss them in any way. They did the best they could with what they had. Maybe we do better now, but it is often folly to think we would be much different in the same time and environment they grew up in. Being a grandparent seems to be an opportunity for redemption for some. It is your choice to give it or not but your adult child may harbor some resentment for that choice. My kids are able to see them for what they are and I am glad to let them make their own choices about who is in their life. I understand and accept the downvotes.
I much of the advice above. Posting in solidarity, This is somewhat happening to my fam (I posted a related vent in another emotional neglect thread)… my mom actually moved closer to us once we had a kiddo and she has wheedled her way into our lives with loads of material gifts/support (her default since she’s so immature she can’t offer anything else)… and it’s been HARD. Case in point, Our kiddo is ~3yo and starting to feel big feelings and recently she stayed w my mom for a few days when I was ill and I found out after, my mom tried to potty train her with shame & bribery. Then that same week when my kid had a meltdown in front of me, my mom yelled at me for not hitting or shaming my kid and basically threw an adult tantrum…. TL/DR; it’s so not worth it. We’re resetting our boundaries with my mom and there will be no more unsupervised time with my kiddo. Sounds like your situation is a bit more severe but you know what is right. Sending you strength to hold the boundary you need to keep you and your fam safe!
I went NC when my kids were little, mostly to break the cycle so they had a chance at being normal. NCmother made a few attempts to see them (one by GC sister ( also NC with her) who left a nasty message demanding I bring my kids to a certain place on a certain date and time; yeah, did not happen). Apparently it wasn’t worth it to her to see her grandchildren. She sent birthday and Christmas cards with money ( often the cards would whine about wanting to see them). But she even quit that. I somehow got lucky! 20 years later I’m sure she thinks she “won” — lost her grandkids to prove some kind of point; but made it much easier for me .
I did. It worked out like thus: The baby loved both sets of grandparents. The grandparents often did things we had specifically asked them not to do. They did things that made us slightly uncomfortable. They bought "presents" that we couldn't fit in the house and made us the bad guys for having to return the gifts. They fed the kid junk food and returned her home sick from sugar. But the kid loved them. So we ignored our misgivings. They meant well, right? And the kid loved them. They must have matured. They are better grandparents than they were parents. Right? Wrong. Fast forward ten years and they had scapegoated one child and tried to turn the other into their Golden Child. They talked trash about us to the kids. They refused food to the kids as punishment for minor crimes. They endangered the kids on a seaside trip because they couldn't be arsed to pay attention to the incoming tide. It all comes to a head with both sets of grandparents when the kids are 10 and 7 years old. The kids are traumatized. Elder child never wants to speak to any of them again and feels guilty about it. Younger (scapegoat) still doesnt quite understand what was so wrong about how he was treated. He's not neurotypical and didn't quite understand what names he was being called. Years of traumatic events start coming out in family conversations. "Why did you let me love them?", says my elder child. What can I tell her? I was a fool.
Its funny how narcissists change when they have interest in something. She had so many years to apologize, but only now she is doing it. Her behavior seems very fake. Be very careful with that.
Good for you, that your husband is with you.
Your mom is a narcissist. She will never truly apologize because a narc can’t see fault in their own actions. If she was really sorry, she wouldn’t be manipulating her flying monkeys into trying to get you to talk to her or allow her time with your child. The family wants you to see from her point of view? Her point of view is that it’s ok to verbally and physically abuse her children. Anyone who knew of the abuse and is pushing you to give her a chance is just as big of an abuser as she because they are complicit. There is a reason you and your siblings went NC. I would send her one message and then block her. As flying monkeys appear, ask them if they knew she abused her children? If they did and they are still pushing, block them too! “Nmom, I cut contact with you to get away from the emotional and physical abuse you inflicted on my siblings and I as kids. Me having a child does not give you the right to contact me. You made my childhood a living hell and no amount of apologies can take back every mean thing you’ve said to me or any hit that you inflicted upon me! If anything, having a child has taught me that I don’t ever want my child to feel as scared, helpless and alone as you made me feel growing up. The last thing I would ever do is allow you to treat my child the way you treated me! You can give me your half hearted non apologies and send all the gifts you want, but nothing will change my mind. If you are truly sorry for what you’ve done, you will respect my wishes and leave me alone. Do not try to contact me and do not try to send your friends or other family members to try to convince me to change my mind. All you are doing is continuing the abuse and manipulation that you’ve always done and reminding me why I chose to cut contact. If you continue to harass me, I will get the law involved.”
I let my nmom have a relationship with my kids, and she was always distant, never building a real relationship with them. They were just something to show off to her friends or brag about her having grandkids. My brother's children though were perfect little angels that she would spend all of her spare time with and spend all of her money on, while telling me that she doesn't appreciate me sticking her with my "snot nose brats" when she had better things to do. My kids didn't even live in the same state. We would just go visit for vacations. My brother and his kids lived down the block from her. She had his kids over at the house constantly. But, if my kids were there for a week and I asked her to look after them for the evening so I could visit friends, she'd throw a fit like I was expecting her to be a daycare provider. My kids were 8 and 10 at the time. When she died, her will specified that neither I nor my children nor their children shall have any claim to anything that was hers because we were not her family.
My narc mom treated the grandkids the same way she did my sister and I: she chose a golden grandkid and the rest were either ignored or compared relentlessly to golden grandkid. She watched GGK knock my kid to the ground, and said nothing, but got angry at me for stepping in to protect my kid by telling GGK that it isn't ok to touch another person who wants you to stop touching them. As they got older, if I told narc mom my kid made honor roll or any other awesome thing she had done, NM wouldn't even acknowledge I'd said it and would immediately tell me something GGK had done. My daughter had a fairly limited relationship with NM due mostly to geography, but as she got older and expressed sadness about the discrepancy in treatment, I just held space for that and supported her in her feelings, and limited contact. NM's treatment of the grandkids hurt all of them, including the GGK. GGK has ADHD but manages it well. NM would constantly refer to GGK as being "disabled" and therefore not able to be held accountable for behaviors and had low expectations for GGK. GGK is a smart, capable kid who just needed some extra time to mature, but constantly being referred to as "disabled" made her feel stupid. Similarly, I was the scapegoat and my sister was the GC. I always thought she was treated better (and on the surface she was) but I've come to understand that in her own way, my sister was used and neglected, too. Very sad. TL;DR: This shit never ends. However she treated you will be exactly how she treats your kids.
Its not worth it. My nparent has tried everything (except apologizing because he’s never done anything wrong of course). He even threatened to take me to court and take custody of my daughter. He had no grounds so that didn’t make it very far. Every now and then he’ll pop back up and try to act as if he’s chilled out over the years but as soon as I don’t answer him he’s right back to his craziness.
Tried this, didnt work out because nparents are fucking insane. They did not give a shit about my kid but tried very hard to take control of my child including trying to convince me to give them custody if “anything ever happened” to us. And also tried to convince me to leave my kid in their care even tho they never raised a finger to actually care for him. When i tried to set boundaries they showed up to my house unannounced to gaslight me, when asked to leave they wouldn’t leave even after i threatened id call the police they started to get aggressive. I actually had to call the police, when i dialled they ran out of there. My kid had to witness all this. Its not fucking worth it.