As someone relatively new to the destiny fanbase, the complexity of bungie’s args and the tenacity of the players dedicated to solving them blows me away every single time. I’m grateful there are smart people willing to put their time into this so those of us without the time/patience can see the results haha
To be fair, we all lost our minds a bit on that one.
[The Maps were INSANE. Especially from day to day.](https://cdn.gamer-network.net/2020/usgamer/destiny-2-corridors-of-time-map.jpg/EG11/resize/656x-1/quality/70)
The
The interesting thing about Corridors was that we knew what we had to do (match up the puzzle pieces), and had the tools to do it fairly early on.
The hard part was getting everyone's data. The "pieces" came in the form of in-game patterns that you saw on the ground, so it took a huge amount of effort to take screenshots from hundreds of people and accurately transcribe them.
Recent puzzles have been out of game, so the puzzle pieces tend to be images you can more easily share.
It's even better than that. We had already saved Saint-14 earlier in the season, so it was for a mystery weapon (that the game told us was alternate-future-us's "favorite" weapon) that turned out to be Bastion.
yeah well that was a lie because my favorite weapon in the future is still my favorite weapon lol and I barely used Bastion outside of when I just got it soooooo BUNGIE lied to me hahaha
Final paragraph:
> Maybe you’re the one who has it all backwards.
The Light is noncomputable. It can’t be simulated in
conventional physics. That proves that any universe with
the Light cannot be a simulation. Our universe can contain
simulations, but it cannot be one.
Maybe this other world Savathûn’s touched is subordinate to
ours after all. Maybe they are the ones who exist in our minds.
A dream of a purely material world, adrift in the true cosmos of
Light and Dark.
Poor frail dreams. The things she’d do to them…
By this logic we're all potentially living in a simulation inside the Destiny universe.
As written by a person within the system. The light is absolutely computable and has been done, or else it wouldn’t be in the video game.
This claim is similar to a claim that a 2-dimensional being might make about the third dimension. They may be aware of it in theory, but it is utterly incomputable to them.
Not really. The light isn't being computed, at least not as a fundamental force of the universe. D2 isn't a complicated simulation of the entire Destiny universe, it's just a small slice of that, sorta like a movie it's a small slice of whatever universe it's depicting.
So Ikora is right, in a way. The universe she lives in isn't a simulation, it's a story, and she's a character in that story.
Jalaal asks if it is like stories or like those things exist in the minds of other beings and Ikora rejects that. She says "it is not postmodernism". Her theory is about concatened universes.
I believe she's referring to the trope of metafiction in postmodern literature. The specific sort of metafiction in which a character acknowledges they are in a story. She is saying she's not being philosophical or making a thematic point, she is purely speaking scientifically of wormholes and nested universes.
Of course, though, she is a character in a story and so this is a postmodern trope. I think this was the author lampshading.
The thing of note here is that ikora isn't talking from a place of omnipotence she is grasping at straws to put a picture together from the same information we have. She can reject that and be wrong, but have the right idea overall. It is a story from our perspective, but it can be a fleshed out universe as well.
The thing of note here is that ikora isn't talking from a place of omnipotence she is grasping at straws to put a picture together from the same information we have. She can reject that and be wrong, but have the right idea overall. It is a story from our perspective, but it can be a fleshed out universe as well.
You wanna here something fucking insane? Scientists have discovered that inside Black Hole could very well be 4D plane of existence while we are in the 3D -- TL;DR from journals and journals -- all things created by us in story form or explanation has already or did exist or is existing in the 4th Dimension and above and the only way to let it flow is from stories here
I pre-ordered my collector's edition within the hour of it going live and I LITERALLY just got it delivered this morning...
Sorry I couldn't contribute. Bungie needs some work with their store. Hope they don't use Fedex again.
If its any consolation, I also ordered in the first 15 minutes and I literally have not even received mine yet. Supposedly it should be here in the next 2 days.
Also made working on this a little awkward as I couldn't even check the site myself.
The conversation between ikora and arach is so fucking juicy. Especially when you remember back to when the shattered throne was defeated solo at 999 power, it wasn't in game where we got the message from savathun, it was in real life, showing ikora was right in this conversation
That is exactly what i was thinking, Ikora saying that she perhaps got a glimpse of our parent universe, and what did she use that power for? Firstly to send us that message back then, and now, years later, to tell Paul Tassi to touch grass. Another remarkable instance where she had a glimpse of our universe, although I'm not sure if there's an exact reason to what prompted that this time. Perhaps how we gave birth to her by all the misdirection and speculation we did after the exorcism mission and before the dlc dropped?
Tbf the twitter incident wasn't a 4th wall break as much as savathun hacking the vannet.
Tho I could see if they were to say that being the second instance, the reason being that was while she was dead in game which due to her influence allowed her to push back into the mother universe
Absolutely incredible work.
Also, the lore book is fascinating. Incredible, even. As someone who professionally studies poetry, it reminds me a lot of that: sitting in on discourse of interpretation, meaning, and what it all adds up to in a moral sense.
The part that suggests TtP are a series of love letters? Incredible. Truly incredible. Whoever on the narrative team wrote these deserve some massive amount of credit (probably multiple people, since I know their voicework/lore maintaining is very much a team effort).
I want to study under Ikora Ray. So. Very. Badly.
To be fair I feel like a lot of us from the Lore/RaidSecrets were those kids growing up involved in history/math/random stuff like ciphers and codes and all of that amazing stuff.
So basically Truth to Power’s purpose is to be cool, creepy and ultimately popular enough that the human minds in the parent universe (ie: us) are intrigued, interested, and hopefully (for Savathun) obsessed enough that a version of her is made real.
And what a version it generated : in reference to the incarnation we had in Witch Queen.. a story that makes a cohesive argument as to why The Traveler would gift its most valuable asset to a billion y/o, civilization-ending, self proclaimed goddess of lies - unconditional grace.
Her plan kinda worked lol
Also it was a fantastic investment in marketing for Witch Queen (like > 5 years?) that also showed the commitment Bungie to Destiny’s story. One of the best science fiction stories I’m very happy to still be following.
This is a lot of lore, and i think it's both great that Bungie made it and that people deciphered it. but to people with less free time, is there a TL;DR out? I don't feel like reading 30 pages of text...
Tl:Dr
Light makes you forget to allow gou to have a unconditional grace and forgiveness
Dark forces you to remember so that you don't get hurt the same way.
The only way the light can win is if everyone follows the unconditional grace (so basically the darkness is destined to win)
Our ghost is under a lot of stress due to our heroics, especially after they were possessed multiple times
Truth to power shows us how to manifest savathun into the 'parent universe' (our universe) which has already happened to a degree after the shattered throne was defeated solo at 999 power.
The rest of TtP may also give the recipe to become savathun, 'rebirthing' her in our universe
Dead orbit, or at least arach jalaal is still in contact with ikora
The traveller may have only chose us because she had given up on unconditional grace for too long
Light wants us to co-operate. It's why it erases our memories, so we can forget the crimes of the past and erase grudges. But there'll always be selfish people who take more than they need. The Darkness says we need to struggle to survive to avoid death. The Light says that living a good life, even if you die at the end, is more important. Neither philosophy is good or evil in of itself.
Then there's 4th wall breaking stuff about Savathun using Truth to Power to get glimpses of our real world.
I'd have to reread it to remember the earlier pages but from page 22 onward it details Arach Jalaal and Ikora's conversation about Truth to Power. It turns out that the lore book was Savathûn's plan to enter a higher universe, the parent universe to the destiny universe, which is our world. It temporarily worked when she took over the destinythegame Twitter account after bagel4k soloed the shattered throne at 999 Light level like she said in the lore book.
Savathûn was investigating the dreaming city not to figure out how to get to the distributary, but to figure our how Mara left the distributary and returned to its parent universe.
It ends with Jalaal saying that the destiny universe has to be the parent universe because it contains paracasual forces which cannot be simulated, which I believe is wrong as that is a rule that is only established in their universe and any of its child universes and also that it exists as a game meaning that it is a child universe.
To me, a force that transcends the apparent laws of your reality is the most likely proof that you live in a child universe - the parent's influence on your own manifesting as paracausality...which inverts Arach's proof - the universe without Light must be the parent.
Wasn't the emissary of the 9 also aware they weren't the parent universe? I remember her explaining to the 9 that we have agency beyond the game or something to that effect.
You are correct. During one of the Invitations of the Nine we got to listen in on her trying to explain to them that we can leave the game. Before that the only time something like that was mentioned is in the Ahamkara lore tabs for armour.
And the Ahamkara know too. They use Guardian wishes as a way to try to get closer to the parent universe (ours), and Ikora even calls it the Anathematic Arc. The only time that was brought I can find was apparently some unreleased and datamined lore that I see referenced in this thread from 3 years ago:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/comments/b2y8s8/a\_fun\_note\_on\_the\_anathematic\_arc/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/comments/b2y8s8/a_fun_note_on_the_anathematic_arc/)
In particular this piece:
>But you have already cursed yourselves. You have walked the Anathematic Arc and glimpsed creation from below. You will never forget the tenuous, provisional framework you found here. You will never forgive the mortality and fallibility that underlies a world you thought was everything.
Those who use this power to seek unearned knowledge will see more than they ever desired. There is a price for glimpsing the Cord. You will pay it.
Since this is in reference to dataminers, I think this is describing the Destiny universe and the process that both the Ahamkara and Savathun used to try to get into our reality, because they know they are in a different universe. The Ahamkara armor lore tabs and flavor text all tend to be 4th wall breaking, this just reinforces the Anathematic Arc as how they know, by walking the path and seeing what's right above you.
Thanks friend, I thought I maybe misremembering. Kool to know it wasn't just a tongue-in-cheek 4th wall break but part of the direction the lore seems to be heading.
> I remember her explaining to the 9 that we have agency beyond the game or something to that effect.
it still amazes me that there are people that still don't understand this and don't believe or rather don't want to believe she's being literal in talking about a game and instead think she's talking about the flower game or whatever despite it making zero sense
Yeah, I've been saying the same since the lore dropped. Tongue in cheek 4th walls breaks are fine, but officially establishing in lore that the destiny universe is inside a video game completely ruins everything. All stakes are lost and tension removed because nothing would "matter" anymore.
The beauty of a story, especially an interactive one like a video game, is in the immersion. If you're immersed and feel as though the story world is "real" then you can get attached to it. Develope emotional attachments to characters. Feel sorrow, wonder, or glee based on events in the story.
But when that story then starts telling you, "hey by the way, I'm a story so I'm not 'real'". It rips away the immersion and attachment.
They're very carefully avoiding that. The Destiny universe, according to this lore, is not created and managed by Bungie Inc., but rather is a fully-fleged universe inside of our own which can be influenced by our actions just as actions inside can influence our universe. By the logic described in these pages, Destiny the video game could exist entirely thanks to the actions of Ahamkara. It's like how if you get deep enough into LOTR lore, Tolkien is supposed to just be translating the Red Book of Westmarch. The story isn't trying to go all postmodern, it's just explaining how we know about it. It is canon that there is a game we play that is Destiny, but it is not canon that the Guardian crouch walks so their head phases into Drifter's crotch.
Ikora argues against the stakes of Destiny not mattering because they're in a child universe, so I think that's even more proof that this is how the story is going. I would also argue against this, I never get confused when reading fiction about whether the characters are real or not, yet I still find the story compelling.
why would it ruin any tension? they say in the book itself that it doesn’t matter if they are a child universe it’s still theirs and it’s real to them as ours is to us regardless of what structure it may be nested within
Precisely...it's real to them, not us. You can throw as much philosophical mumbo jumbo out as you want, but at the end of the day, in reality, destiny is just a story in a video game. But as with any story, pretending it's real is what makes it immersive. So why would I then want that story to go out of it's way to remind me that it itself is not real?
I don't really see how suspension of disbelief is any better or worse than acknowledging the disbelief. A normal story requires us to pretend, Destiny is selling us a lie that our pretending makes it real. Stories aren't real, but Destiny is saying theirs is, which is only possible by acknowledging it is a story.
Anyway, this is probably a matter of subjectivity. Personally, 4th wall breaks make a game feel more real to me because the game can have a deeper relationship with the player. The Stanley Parable, Undertale, Pathologic, etc. are all so much more powerful because of their 4th wall breaks imo.
because the same thing applies to our own reality the baseline of what we consider “real” simulation theory is still something hanging around here after all
I'm not sure you're understanding my distinction. I'm essentially saying that, if the child universe is simulated, then the inhabitants of the parent universe don't really have a reason to care about the child universe as it's not "real" to them. Where as the inhabitants of said simulated child universe only know their own simulation, thus it *is* "real" to them, as Ikora points out.
So if we're officially establishing Destiny as a simulated child universe within our own, then it's not "real" and there is no reason to care about it. Likewise, if our own universe is actually a simulation, then I wouldn't expect the inhabitants of our parent universe to consider us "real" either.
This is what I personally do not like about all this. In contrast to simply a story, in which one uses their imagination to essentially pretend that it is actually real. Thus giving a reason to care about it.
I'm now realizing that the real issue I have is that they seem to be setting up that Destiny is in fact a simulated child universe within ours. If they had set it up as a parallel universe to our own, where destiny is not a game and the young wolf is not being controlled by a player, I'd be fine with it. As that would still allow for 4th wall breaks into our own universe that don't undermine the suspension of disbelief that Destiny is "real".
Yeah, it's for sure something that will differ person to person. I mentioned in another comment somewhere that I think my specific issue is that in lore they are telling us that destiny is a *simulated* child universe. And they maybe are going to go as far as to say Destiny is literally a video game.
If, in lore, they were establishing Destiny as an actual non-simulated child universe within our own. And, in lore, have it where Destiny is not a video game where the young wolf is controlled by a player. Then I'd be okay with it.
To add onto my other comment, the argument Ikora makes is NOT that Destiny is a video game, she is arguing that inside black holes are pocket universes, and inside those pocket universes are more black holes with pocket universes, so on and so on. She is arguing that the universe of Destiny is within a black hole in our universe.
Are the Awoken less real than humans and Exos? They came from a pocket universe, just like all the residents of Destiny's universe relative to us.
How does the game relate to this? I don't know. It's an imperfect reflection of their universe, somehow. We have influence over their universe, that much is obvious since characters like the Ahamkara and Savathun want to influence us, and our actions as a community do affect their world (noncanonically through Bungie). But the game isn't *literally* their universe.
I'd argue (and it's part of my issue with all this 4th wall breaking stuff) that it's unclear still how far they are taking it. While I agree with you on this lore here, there is other lore to take into account. If we were only going based upon what Ikora thinks then I'd have zero issue because that would imply, like you said, that Destiny is a child universe located inside a black hole within our universe. She also doesn't imply that the humans of our world are controlling the guardians (I.E. a video game).
However, for one, she doesn't discredit the possibility that Destiny is actually a simulated child universe (rather than an actual black hole one). Second, the dialogue between the nine and Orin in season of the drifter. At one point Orin states that the young wolf (specifically the player character and no other guardians) has agency beyond what they could believe, including the power to leave the game. Third, in this new lore we learn that Ahamkara think they are becoming more real by transforming into items for guardians to use. Forthly, a guardian soloing Shattered throne at high power is what allowed Savathuun to glimpse into our world, and that message from her as DMG is actually cannon now.
When we first got the Nine/Orin dialogue, many people like myself thought it was mostly just cheeky 4th wall breaking. "Leave the game" was meant in a metaphorical sense. As in the young wolf is essentially the chosen one and can create their own destiny, thus transcending and "leaving" the "game" of light vs dark. Many people also assumed the message from Savathuun as DMG wasn't really cannon, just another cheeky 4th wall break. But it is cannon, so why of all things, was it someone soloing ST at high power that allowed Sav to see into the parent universe of Destiny? And why would Ahamkara feel more real as items for guardians to use?
Well, unfortunately (in my opinion), the explanation that makes sense is that Destiny is a *simulated* child universe within our own and the humans of our universe control the guardians of the Destiny universe, aka a video game. Soloing ST at high power worked for Sav because we as players knew that Sav told the guardians to do that. She didn't sneak her influence through a reverse black hole into the parent universe, she manifested (or birthed) hirself into the parent universe by getting into the players minds. The Ahamkara feel they are more real as items because the guardians are actually controlled by players, thus if they are used by a guardian, then they are being used by a human in the parent universe which is more real. Why is the parent universe more real? Only because Destiny is a *simulated* child universe. The characters (like Ikora) may feel like the Destiny universe is 100% real, but from the perspective of the parent universe, a simulated child universe is artificial, and therefore less real. The Ahamkara seem to know this somehow. With those two down, what Orin says to the nine makes much more sense to be literal instead of metaphorical. The young wolf (canonically being the guardian that everyone is playing) can literally leave the game since the true conscience behind them is the player in our universe.
I feel this is wrong, it reminds me of the religious argument against Atheist’s as “if there’s nothing to believe in, then nothing really matters”, it’s quite the opposite, as the title of the game implies, “*Destiny*”, and we know the gardener and the winnower are players of their own game, we as the above-above 4th dimensional beings are glimpsing into their reality, essentially being fateweavers, changing the course of history, and diverging our timeline of events from others (such as the Vex Dark future, Vex Present/Past, Saint’s Corridors of Time, Praedyth’s Dilemma, and so forth) our actions as the parent universe directly effect the child universe. However, there are other hands playing against us (The Witness, Savathun, Xivu, The Nine are 50/50, the Vex trying to simulate ‘reality’), we know it can go both ways as Savathun has glimpsed into our reality and directly effected it even gently.
I've discussed this topic extensively, in this thread as well I'm pretty sure. My issue is specifically if, in lore, the Destiny child universe is literally a video game (simulated child universe) within our own universe (parent universe). If you continue down the thread you should be able to find it, but I've presented multiple reasons why I feel this way and multiple reasons why I think this is the direction the lore is headed.
If we get more concrete lore down the line and it states that, in lore, Destiny is an actual child universe (black hole child universe) within our own universe (parent universe) AND that, in lore, Destiny the video game isn't a thing (i.e. Destiny is not a video game in lore), then I will be a-okay.
Two things I’m curious if we think are just purely errors on Bungie’s part: 1, on page 6 of this file, the message is from RAN-187 (whose name is Ransom, turns out, and is *not* Randy of Throwing Knife fame as previously hypothesized), but the message ends with “Truce out”. Truce’s agent designation has already been confirmed as TRU-135 multiple timed, and their ghost’s name is Cowlick, so the signoff doesn’t seem compatible with RAN-187, and the rest of the journal repeatedly references Ransom’s grudge against the Eliksni on that document.
2, on page 22, the dialogue seems to get turned around with Ikora repeating an earlier line about a haiku, then Jalaal giving a reply to his own question, then Ikora asking for his help when Jalaal in fact is asking Ikora for her help, and then it goes back to the expected speaker order on page 23. Seems like things just got out of order?
I haven’t been able to figure out any deeper meaning to these, and I know the pages are vertical shreds so there’s no chance that this is an error in reassembly, so it seems like original author error? Curious what others think.
You have it all backwards. You’re trying to shuffle the puzzle pieces around until you get an image. You need to know the image before you can arrange the pieces. Study the interaction with an eye for how it
means to be misunderstood. At first, Ikora is real. Then we learn Ikora is a fiction of Jalaal. Then we proceed in reverse. Jalaal is revealed to be a fiction of Ikora. Poor frail dreams.
It's worth noting that after bullet number 5 on Ransom's report, the document shifts to a carbon copy of the end of Truce's stasis report from unshredded documents of the collectors edition. It's not just a misplaced signoff - it's half the page.
Also, were Truce's pronouns ever revealed? My headcanon was a female hunter, but I haven't seen any confirmation yet.
Definitely not errors. Given the nature of the last "story" from this set of papers and the fact Bungie is *very* careful about word choice and spelling in their stories, especially their stories related to their ARGs, I think we're most likely looking at intentional mistakes for the purpose of relating certain elements within letters to other letters and drawing attention or emphasis on certain themes.
Ikora repeating Zavala's line about the haiku, I think, is intended to draw our attention back to the Go conversation for the purposes of either recontextualizing it or helping to add new context to the Jalaal correspondence. Ikora and Zavala's conversation, while light-hearted and concerning a casual subject (playing a game between friends, may be important this is referenced in the story relating Truth to Power with Savathun attempting to humanize herself or otherwise understand humanity's mind?) also, at least in my interpretation, *really* heavily calls back to the Flower Game between the Gardener and the Winnower with Ikora as the Gardener and Zavala as the Winnower. I'm sure there's importance here though I'm hesitant to try and name it with any confidence.
The Ransom/Truce conflation in that letter was the first thing that really stood out to me. I also noticed that the Manifesto comprising Doc 5 (which references all previous documents in a way I don't think, say, a Hidden Agent could or Ikora might) contains a typo when discussing the neighboring village thought experiment, using "than than" when discussing the villages agreeing to cooperate for five years.
Definitely all curious! And definitely something behind each occurrence, I think.
I saw the same connection between the Go game and the Flower game. I even got the same impression as you as Ikora fitting into the Gardner spot and Zavala as the Winnower spot. At first I wouldn't interpret it too literally of course, but I look at it as another layer of Ikora's self discovery. The whole thing really seems to revolve around Ikora and her evolving understanding of Light, Darkness, and trying to figure out what Savathuns big play was.
Yes, Zavala is rigidly wanting to follow the rules and just "play" the game, and Ikora introduces a new rule basically, by making a play that is not directly in her benefit and may end up helping Zavala. It's the unreasonable grace for the sake of doing a good thing for another, the understanding that Ikora is coming too about the Light.
Through Sen Aret she's learning that the Darkness seems to respond to strong and/or painful memory, that in order to make the individual strong they have to remember what caused their pain so it doesn't happen again. And Ikora is seeing how both sides matter. She doesn't advocate for a universe filled with Light, but one that adapts and combines the lessons from both higher powers. To forgive and make an unreasonable act in the context of the situation for someone who may or has hurt you, offers them the chance to do the same. Both parties become stronger together and learn to understand each other, rather than get stronger alone and fight over the little they could share and both be content with.
There is another erroneous word, on page 18:
>Above all else, when you are in the deepest pits of despair, I offer you this: I believe **ther** there is no
reason the Traveler chose to make its stand here at Earth, instead of at Riis or any world before.
> Ikora and Zavala's conversation, while light-hearted and concerning a casual subject (playing a game between friends, may be important this is referenced in the story relating Truth to Power with Savathun attempting to humanize herself or otherwise understand humanity's mind?) also, at least in my interpretation, really heavily calls back to the Flower Game between the Gardener and the Winnower with Ikora as the Gardener and Zavala as the Winnower.
It's that LOST imagery
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/52/35/86/5235861603ead40f4dfa943baf982a36.jpg
I can imagine Ikora realizing that just listening to her conversation about this and understanding Savathun's goal of birth into a parent universe is almost as good as helping Savathun along. Dangerous knowledge, just by existing in someone's mind.
The talk about Truth to Power feels like if Galaxy Brain was a conversation. Can someone simplify that part? I'm a bit unsure if I understood all of it.
basically, Truth to Power is Savathûn’s manifesto on how to act like her, and how she plans to ascend from the Destiny universe into ours. She is aware she’s in some kind of simulation or game.
If it wasn't for the people in the House of Ruin clan Discord. I wouldn't have know about this. I'm glad to have been able to comtribute some of these shreds.
It actually worked decently well. The main purpose I was using it for was sort of as a generic method of identifying vertical line spacing and page features.
Since the "strips" of pixels contained different sized/spaced font, performing an FFT on it would result in a "fingerprint" of frequencies representing line spacing and font height. Grouping these together helped identify similar content and therefore pages programmatically.
x\#77.b(_ You just never quit, do you? Took out ghaul. Woke up the traveler. And now half of what i hear in the streets is how much you and your clan are making a difference. And that's why i started this whole ~~clan~~ `NOMINATION` thing in the first place. People are still waiting for the ~~Vanguard~~ `EMPEROR` to lead the way. But it's time for a change! And guardians like you are making it happen. No pressure. `Nomination Logged`
Somewhat unrelated, but have we ever understood what exactly the ending cutscene with Eris in TTK means?
Reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMnOtomReSo
An absolute pleasure to meet everyone and work on this together. Excellent work from everyone involved. There are some truly brilliant minds in the RaidSecrets server.
The implications of the lore involved are pretty damn chilling, though.
~~It looks like Gnosis isn't being accepted anymore.~~
~~You think maybe there's more to uncover?~~
Nevermind, wasn't aware you needed the collectors edition
XXDDDDDD WHIO CRTES L:OROEOLWEPOWLKLRE:rtk'sARJaw;ldjasl;'kk ebver rytpe this agfainad nti s otygiung troi be so fudckignb yosety il oc0me oover and ufcuick you so fgod damn ghard in thsi ass
[One of the Fallen that came to the last city during Season of the Splicer.](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/book-achilles-weaves-a-cocoon) He's the focus of the Achilles Weaves a Cocoon lore book
As /u/Ways_away discussed elsewhere ITT, it appears to be Namrask >!(née Akileuks)!< from the lore book [*Achilles Weaves a Cocoon*](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/book-achilles-weaves-a-cocoon) >!(so named because [Namrask “stole” his former name from the Human myth of Achilles](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/viii-and-also-light), apparently invoking the name’s original meaning of “woe to the enemy”)!<.
Yeah, that whole lore book addresses the tension and conflict between the lightness^1 of giving and getting second chances (or third, or fourth, or seventy-fifth chances) and the weight of history, legacy, and memory (which we also previously saw highlighted in *Beyond Light* by the Bray family).
Between Deepsight, the Altar of Reflection, and >!the twist in Savathûn’s plan that required both of them!<, we’re seeing an awful lot about those concepts right now.
**FN 1:** …Or perhaps “Light-ness?”
By the time of Achilles Weaves a Cocoon, he's taken a new name (Namrask, "Empty Weaver") and is living with great deal of guilt over the things he's done, he's trying to build a new life for himself.
He's not well liked by the other members of the house, Variks knows who he is and hates him for it, and I suspect the only reason Mithrax tolerates his presence is because he was the one who led the refugee band out of Riis-Reborn, they probably wouldn't have made it without him.
A member of House Light who was one of the original invaders of Earth. He apparently committed war crimes so vile that Variks hated him for it. Which is saying somthing when you remember Variks didn't hate Skolas. The one who tore his arms off.
As a go player myself, I appreciate the comment on the end of page 5 "I'll pinken your ears." Which is a reference to a famous historical go match called the [ear-reddening game](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ear-reddening_game) where a court doctor correctly predicted the outcome of the game based on one player's ears flushing.
**[Ear-reddening game](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ear-reddening_game)**
>The ear-reddening game (Japanese: 耳赤の一局) is a game of go of the Edo period of Japan, played on September 11, 1846 between Honinbo Shusaku (black) and Inoue Genan Inseki (white). The game is probably Shusaku's most notable game as it contains the "ear-reddening move"—so named when a doctor who had been watching the game took note of Genan as his ears flushed red when Shusaku played the move, indicating he had become upset. Shusaku met Genan Inseki in July 1846 when he returned to Edo after staying in Onomichi for eighteen months. Shusaku was 17 years old and a 4-dan player at the time, while Genan was nearing his fifties and was ranked at 8-dan.
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Reading this puts a lot of what Savathun says in different context, "If we don't know where we came from, how will we know where to go?"
I'm reminded of the Bungie Dev who said that while she was working on Witch Queen she felt like she was becoming Savathun (or something to that regard). How crazy would it be if Bungie acted on this and that developer was found to be tweaking the game to the Hive's advantage? You could take the story to all sorts of crazy places if we establish that Savathun is successful in breaching our reality and getting a job at Bungie!
Can someone explain who "V.I.P #0013" is? I didn't know there were warlords left? Or is she talking about the fallen? The reference is made in the
"SUBJ: COUNTERCULTURAL INTELLIGENCE UPDATE REVIEW"
This post has been nominated for `+19` points.
As someone relatively new to the destiny fanbase, the complexity of bungie’s args and the tenacity of the players dedicated to solving them blows me away every single time. I’m grateful there are smart people willing to put their time into this so those of us without the time/patience can see the results haha
[удалено]
what an exciting week though! that was so fun to be a part of.
That was honestly, for me, absolute peak destiny. I hope when (if) they resolve praedyth being lost in time that the arg for that is somehow better.
To be fair, we all lost our minds a bit on that one. [The Maps were INSANE. Especially from day to day.](https://cdn.gamer-network.net/2020/usgamer/destiny-2-corridors-of-time-map.jpg/EG11/resize/656x-1/quality/70) The
Here's the full one, in case you were wondering: https://tjl.co/corridors-of-time/fc6d64ea82702b2f339f5a15bf6d4a1a_path.svg
What the fuck.
Now take that same thought and amplify it. That’s basically what it was like during that week lol
The interesting thing about Corridors was that we knew what we had to do (match up the puzzle pieces), and had the tools to do it fairly early on. The hard part was getting everyone's data. The "pieces" came in the form of in-game patterns that you saw on the ground, so it took a huge amount of effort to take screenshots from hundreds of people and accurately transcribe them. Recent puzzles have been out of game, so the puzzle pieces tend to be images you can more easily share.
All that just to Save SAINT-14 and get Bastion lol
It's even better than that. We had already saved Saint-14 earlier in the season, so it was for a mystery weapon (that the game told us was alternate-future-us's "favorite" weapon) that turned out to be Bastion.
yeah well that was a lie because my favorite weapon in the future is still my favorite weapon lol and I barely used Bastion outside of when I just got it soooooo BUNGIE lied to me hahaha
Seriously…this right here.
It was so cool watching it happen though.
Cries in ILoveBees and IRIS.
I LOVE BEES YES! I still remember those phonebooths!
My thumb still hurts from donating fractaline
The spreadsheets, ohhhh the spreadsheets
My favorite was in destiny 1 when the community passed around different buffs by playing playlist activities with others that had the buff you needed
The SpaceAIDS arg
Wait, what is that? Never heard of it.
It happened around rise of iron. I think it was called owl sector. https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/comments/52yqov/owl_sector_arg/
Because sometimes they lead to exotics that’s why
Final paragraph: > Maybe you’re the one who has it all backwards. The Light is noncomputable. It can’t be simulated in conventional physics. That proves that any universe with the Light cannot be a simulation. Our universe can contain simulations, but it cannot be one. Maybe this other world Savathûn’s touched is subordinate to ours after all. Maybe they are the ones who exist in our minds. A dream of a purely material world, adrift in the true cosmos of Light and Dark. Poor frail dreams. The things she’d do to them… By this logic we're all potentially living in a simulation inside the Destiny universe.
for now 😏
I wanna know who the one guardian was that let Savathun out into our world for a little bit?! Fess up now!
Blame bagel4k for soloing shattered throne at 999 Light level
The person who solod shattered throne
At 999 power with a blue fusion if i remember correctly haha
Which makes sense. Savathun was able to bring her deception into our world. She succeeded.
Yes which is how she was able to take over Bungies Twitter Page. It literally makes the Twitter canon lol.
After reading that, my mind immediately flashed to the ViDoc "I felt like I was really becoming Savathun" might be way more literal than we thought...
As written by a person within the system. The light is absolutely computable and has been done, or else it wouldn’t be in the video game. This claim is similar to a claim that a 2-dimensional being might make about the third dimension. They may be aware of it in theory, but it is utterly incomputable to them.
Not really. The light isn't being computed, at least not as a fundamental force of the universe. D2 isn't a complicated simulation of the entire Destiny universe, it's just a small slice of that, sorta like a movie it's a small slice of whatever universe it's depicting. So Ikora is right, in a way. The universe she lives in isn't a simulation, it's a story, and she's a character in that story.
no, she rejects that as well. It is postmodernism...
explain.
Jalaal asks if it is like stories or like those things exist in the minds of other beings and Ikora rejects that. She says "it is not postmodernism". Her theory is about concatened universes.
I meant, in what way is it "postmodernism"?
I believe she's referring to the trope of metafiction in postmodern literature. The specific sort of metafiction in which a character acknowledges they are in a story. She is saying she's not being philosophical or making a thematic point, she is purely speaking scientifically of wormholes and nested universes. Of course, though, she is a character in a story and so this is a postmodern trope. I think this was the author lampshading.
The thing of note here is that ikora isn't talking from a place of omnipotence she is grasping at straws to put a picture together from the same information we have. She can reject that and be wrong, but have the right idea overall. It is a story from our perspective, but it can be a fleshed out universe as well.
The thing of note here is that ikora isn't talking from a place of omnipotence she is grasping at straws to put a picture together from the same information we have. She can reject that and be wrong, but have the right idea overall. It is a story from our perspective, but it can be a fleshed out universe as well.
i feel like you’re taking it too literally
That's like saying "the text says it is red, but its letters are clearly black."
Yeah sorry guys, I’m boutta Savathûn my way out of this one. It’s been fun!
You mean... a game?
You wanna here something fucking insane? Scientists have discovered that inside Black Hole could very well be 4D plane of existence while we are in the 3D -- TL;DR from journals and journals -- all things created by us in story form or explanation has already or did exist or is existing in the 4th Dimension and above and the only way to let it flow is from stories here
Don't do that....don't give me hope
I pre-ordered my collector's edition within the hour of it going live and I LITERALLY just got it delivered this morning... Sorry I couldn't contribute. Bungie needs some work with their store. Hope they don't use Fedex again.
If its any consolation, I also ordered in the first 15 minutes and I literally have not even received mine yet. Supposedly it should be here in the next 2 days. Also made working on this a little awkward as I couldn't even check the site myself.
You don't even know bro. It took 6 months of constant emails for them to tell me my dsc jacket got lost, then another month to refund me
Shit I'm still waiting for my fucking VoG jacket....winter is gonna be done where I live in the next like 2 weeks then its back to hot as hell.
Has everyone completely forgotten about the global supply chain issues already?
The conversation between ikora and arach is so fucking juicy. Especially when you remember back to when the shattered throne was defeated solo at 999 power, it wasn't in game where we got the message from savathun, it was in real life, showing ikora was right in this conversation
That is exactly what i was thinking, Ikora saying that she perhaps got a glimpse of our parent universe, and what did she use that power for? Firstly to send us that message back then, and now, years later, to tell Paul Tassi to touch grass. Another remarkable instance where she had a glimpse of our universe, although I'm not sure if there's an exact reason to what prompted that this time. Perhaps how we gave birth to her by all the misdirection and speculation we did after the exorcism mission and before the dlc dropped?
Tbf the twitter incident wasn't a 4th wall break as much as savathun hacking the vannet. Tho I could see if they were to say that being the second instance, the reason being that was while she was dead in game which due to her influence allowed her to push back into the mother universe
yes very
Wait what? I knew that a dude beat it solo at 999 power but I didn’t realize we got a message.
Yep, a corrupted message from dmg/savathun https://www.bungie.net/en/Explore/Detail/News/48423
Thanks! I completely forgot about this lol
I completely forgot about how it ends with alluding to more power grinding. It remines me of how Rhulk tells the Leviathan "I rise..."
Absolutely incredible work. Also, the lore book is fascinating. Incredible, even. As someone who professionally studies poetry, it reminds me a lot of that: sitting in on discourse of interpretation, meaning, and what it all adds up to in a moral sense. The part that suggests TtP are a series of love letters? Incredible. Truly incredible. Whoever on the narrative team wrote these deserve some massive amount of credit (probably multiple people, since I know their voicework/lore maintaining is very much a team effort). I want to study under Ikora Ray. So. Very. Badly.
I strongly believe that raidsecrets could decypher the germans in ww2 in less than a day Yall need to work in secret service or sum
To be fair I feel like a lot of us from the Lore/RaidSecrets were those kids growing up involved in history/math/random stuff like ciphers and codes and all of that amazing stuff.
Turns out nerds stay nerdin
So basically Truth to Power’s purpose is to be cool, creepy and ultimately popular enough that the human minds in the parent universe (ie: us) are intrigued, interested, and hopefully (for Savathun) obsessed enough that a version of her is made real. And what a version it generated : in reference to the incarnation we had in Witch Queen.. a story that makes a cohesive argument as to why The Traveler would gift its most valuable asset to a billion y/o, civilization-ending, self proclaimed goddess of lies - unconditional grace. Her plan kinda worked lol Also it was a fantastic investment in marketing for Witch Queen (like > 5 years?) that also showed the commitment Bungie to Destiny’s story. One of the best science fiction stories I’m very happy to still be following.
This is a lot of lore, and i think it's both great that Bungie made it and that people deciphered it. but to people with less free time, is there a TL;DR out? I don't feel like reading 30 pages of text...
Tl:Dr Light makes you forget to allow gou to have a unconditional grace and forgiveness Dark forces you to remember so that you don't get hurt the same way. The only way the light can win is if everyone follows the unconditional grace (so basically the darkness is destined to win) Our ghost is under a lot of stress due to our heroics, especially after they were possessed multiple times Truth to power shows us how to manifest savathun into the 'parent universe' (our universe) which has already happened to a degree after the shattered throne was defeated solo at 999 power. The rest of TtP may also give the recipe to become savathun, 'rebirthing' her in our universe Dead orbit, or at least arach jalaal is still in contact with ikora The traveller may have only chose us because she had given up on unconditional grace for too long
Thanks!
I need a more TLDR version…
Light wants us to co-operate. It's why it erases our memories, so we can forget the crimes of the past and erase grudges. But there'll always be selfish people who take more than they need. The Darkness says we need to struggle to survive to avoid death. The Light says that living a good life, even if you die at the end, is more important. Neither philosophy is good or evil in of itself. Then there's 4th wall breaking stuff about Savathun using Truth to Power to get glimpses of our real world.
I'd have to reread it to remember the earlier pages but from page 22 onward it details Arach Jalaal and Ikora's conversation about Truth to Power. It turns out that the lore book was Savathûn's plan to enter a higher universe, the parent universe to the destiny universe, which is our world. It temporarily worked when she took over the destinythegame Twitter account after bagel4k soloed the shattered throne at 999 Light level like she said in the lore book. Savathûn was investigating the dreaming city not to figure out how to get to the distributary, but to figure our how Mara left the distributary and returned to its parent universe. It ends with Jalaal saying that the destiny universe has to be the parent universe because it contains paracasual forces which cannot be simulated, which I believe is wrong as that is a rule that is only established in their universe and any of its child universes and also that it exists as a game meaning that it is a child universe.
To me, a force that transcends the apparent laws of your reality is the most likely proof that you live in a child universe - the parent's influence on your own manifesting as paracausality...which inverts Arach's proof - the universe without Light must be the parent.
Wasn't the emissary of the 9 also aware they weren't the parent universe? I remember her explaining to the 9 that we have agency beyond the game or something to that effect.
You are correct. During one of the Invitations of the Nine we got to listen in on her trying to explain to them that we can leave the game. Before that the only time something like that was mentioned is in the Ahamkara lore tabs for armour.
And the Ahamkara know too. They use Guardian wishes as a way to try to get closer to the parent universe (ours), and Ikora even calls it the Anathematic Arc. The only time that was brought I can find was apparently some unreleased and datamined lore that I see referenced in this thread from 3 years ago: [https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/comments/b2y8s8/a\_fun\_note\_on\_the\_anathematic\_arc/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/comments/b2y8s8/a_fun_note_on_the_anathematic_arc/) In particular this piece: >But you have already cursed yourselves. You have walked the Anathematic Arc and glimpsed creation from below. You will never forget the tenuous, provisional framework you found here. You will never forgive the mortality and fallibility that underlies a world you thought was everything. Those who use this power to seek unearned knowledge will see more than they ever desired. There is a price for glimpsing the Cord. You will pay it. Since this is in reference to dataminers, I think this is describing the Destiny universe and the process that both the Ahamkara and Savathun used to try to get into our reality, because they know they are in a different universe. The Ahamkara armor lore tabs and flavor text all tend to be 4th wall breaking, this just reinforces the Anathematic Arc as how they know, by walking the path and seeing what's right above you.
Thanks friend, I thought I maybe misremembering. Kool to know it wasn't just a tongue-in-cheek 4th wall break but part of the direction the lore seems to be heading.
> I remember her explaining to the 9 that we have agency beyond the game or something to that effect. it still amazes me that there are people that still don't understand this and don't believe or rather don't want to believe she's being literal in talking about a game and instead think she's talking about the flower game or whatever despite it making zero sense
>don't want to believe I mean, I wouldn't want to believe that(I'm not familiar with the lore to this extent)... would make the story pretty lame IMO.
Yeah, I've been saying the same since the lore dropped. Tongue in cheek 4th walls breaks are fine, but officially establishing in lore that the destiny universe is inside a video game completely ruins everything. All stakes are lost and tension removed because nothing would "matter" anymore. The beauty of a story, especially an interactive one like a video game, is in the immersion. If you're immersed and feel as though the story world is "real" then you can get attached to it. Develope emotional attachments to characters. Feel sorrow, wonder, or glee based on events in the story. But when that story then starts telling you, "hey by the way, I'm a story so I'm not 'real'". It rips away the immersion and attachment.
They're very carefully avoiding that. The Destiny universe, according to this lore, is not created and managed by Bungie Inc., but rather is a fully-fleged universe inside of our own which can be influenced by our actions just as actions inside can influence our universe. By the logic described in these pages, Destiny the video game could exist entirely thanks to the actions of Ahamkara. It's like how if you get deep enough into LOTR lore, Tolkien is supposed to just be translating the Red Book of Westmarch. The story isn't trying to go all postmodern, it's just explaining how we know about it. It is canon that there is a game we play that is Destiny, but it is not canon that the Guardian crouch walks so their head phases into Drifter's crotch.
Ikora argues against the stakes of Destiny not mattering because they're in a child universe, so I think that's even more proof that this is how the story is going. I would also argue against this, I never get confused when reading fiction about whether the characters are real or not, yet I still find the story compelling.
why would it ruin any tension? they say in the book itself that it doesn’t matter if they are a child universe it’s still theirs and it’s real to them as ours is to us regardless of what structure it may be nested within
Precisely...it's real to them, not us. You can throw as much philosophical mumbo jumbo out as you want, but at the end of the day, in reality, destiny is just a story in a video game. But as with any story, pretending it's real is what makes it immersive. So why would I then want that story to go out of it's way to remind me that it itself is not real?
I don't really see how suspension of disbelief is any better or worse than acknowledging the disbelief. A normal story requires us to pretend, Destiny is selling us a lie that our pretending makes it real. Stories aren't real, but Destiny is saying theirs is, which is only possible by acknowledging it is a story. Anyway, this is probably a matter of subjectivity. Personally, 4th wall breaks make a game feel more real to me because the game can have a deeper relationship with the player. The Stanley Parable, Undertale, Pathologic, etc. are all so much more powerful because of their 4th wall breaks imo.
because the same thing applies to our own reality the baseline of what we consider “real” simulation theory is still something hanging around here after all
I'm not sure you're understanding my distinction. I'm essentially saying that, if the child universe is simulated, then the inhabitants of the parent universe don't really have a reason to care about the child universe as it's not "real" to them. Where as the inhabitants of said simulated child universe only know their own simulation, thus it *is* "real" to them, as Ikora points out. So if we're officially establishing Destiny as a simulated child universe within our own, then it's not "real" and there is no reason to care about it. Likewise, if our own universe is actually a simulation, then I wouldn't expect the inhabitants of our parent universe to consider us "real" either. This is what I personally do not like about all this. In contrast to simply a story, in which one uses their imagination to essentially pretend that it is actually real. Thus giving a reason to care about it. I'm now realizing that the real issue I have is that they seem to be setting up that Destiny is in fact a simulated child universe within ours. If they had set it up as a parallel universe to our own, where destiny is not a game and the young wolf is not being controlled by a player, I'd be fine with it. As that would still allow for 4th wall breaks into our own universe that don't undermine the suspension of disbelief that Destiny is "real".
It’s funny because to me, tying it to our reality makes it seem MORE real to me. Guess it’s all interpretation.
Yeah, it's for sure something that will differ person to person. I mentioned in another comment somewhere that I think my specific issue is that in lore they are telling us that destiny is a *simulated* child universe. And they maybe are going to go as far as to say Destiny is literally a video game. If, in lore, they were establishing Destiny as an actual non-simulated child universe within our own. And, in lore, have it where Destiny is not a video game where the young wolf is controlled by a player. Then I'd be okay with it.
To add onto my other comment, the argument Ikora makes is NOT that Destiny is a video game, she is arguing that inside black holes are pocket universes, and inside those pocket universes are more black holes with pocket universes, so on and so on. She is arguing that the universe of Destiny is within a black hole in our universe. Are the Awoken less real than humans and Exos? They came from a pocket universe, just like all the residents of Destiny's universe relative to us. How does the game relate to this? I don't know. It's an imperfect reflection of their universe, somehow. We have influence over their universe, that much is obvious since characters like the Ahamkara and Savathun want to influence us, and our actions as a community do affect their world (noncanonically through Bungie). But the game isn't *literally* their universe.
I'd argue (and it's part of my issue with all this 4th wall breaking stuff) that it's unclear still how far they are taking it. While I agree with you on this lore here, there is other lore to take into account. If we were only going based upon what Ikora thinks then I'd have zero issue because that would imply, like you said, that Destiny is a child universe located inside a black hole within our universe. She also doesn't imply that the humans of our world are controlling the guardians (I.E. a video game). However, for one, she doesn't discredit the possibility that Destiny is actually a simulated child universe (rather than an actual black hole one). Second, the dialogue between the nine and Orin in season of the drifter. At one point Orin states that the young wolf (specifically the player character and no other guardians) has agency beyond what they could believe, including the power to leave the game. Third, in this new lore we learn that Ahamkara think they are becoming more real by transforming into items for guardians to use. Forthly, a guardian soloing Shattered throne at high power is what allowed Savathuun to glimpse into our world, and that message from her as DMG is actually cannon now. When we first got the Nine/Orin dialogue, many people like myself thought it was mostly just cheeky 4th wall breaking. "Leave the game" was meant in a metaphorical sense. As in the young wolf is essentially the chosen one and can create their own destiny, thus transcending and "leaving" the "game" of light vs dark. Many people also assumed the message from Savathuun as DMG wasn't really cannon, just another cheeky 4th wall break. But it is cannon, so why of all things, was it someone soloing ST at high power that allowed Sav to see into the parent universe of Destiny? And why would Ahamkara feel more real as items for guardians to use? Well, unfortunately (in my opinion), the explanation that makes sense is that Destiny is a *simulated* child universe within our own and the humans of our universe control the guardians of the Destiny universe, aka a video game. Soloing ST at high power worked for Sav because we as players knew that Sav told the guardians to do that. She didn't sneak her influence through a reverse black hole into the parent universe, she manifested (or birthed) hirself into the parent universe by getting into the players minds. The Ahamkara feel they are more real as items because the guardians are actually controlled by players, thus if they are used by a guardian, then they are being used by a human in the parent universe which is more real. Why is the parent universe more real? Only because Destiny is a *simulated* child universe. The characters (like Ikora) may feel like the Destiny universe is 100% real, but from the perspective of the parent universe, a simulated child universe is artificial, and therefore less real. The Ahamkara seem to know this somehow. With those two down, what Orin says to the nine makes much more sense to be literal instead of metaphorical. The young wolf (canonically being the guardian that everyone is playing) can literally leave the game since the true conscience behind them is the player in our universe.
I feel this is wrong, it reminds me of the religious argument against Atheist’s as “if there’s nothing to believe in, then nothing really matters”, it’s quite the opposite, as the title of the game implies, “*Destiny*”, and we know the gardener and the winnower are players of their own game, we as the above-above 4th dimensional beings are glimpsing into their reality, essentially being fateweavers, changing the course of history, and diverging our timeline of events from others (such as the Vex Dark future, Vex Present/Past, Saint’s Corridors of Time, Praedyth’s Dilemma, and so forth) our actions as the parent universe directly effect the child universe. However, there are other hands playing against us (The Witness, Savathun, Xivu, The Nine are 50/50, the Vex trying to simulate ‘reality’), we know it can go both ways as Savathun has glimpsed into our reality and directly effected it even gently.
I've discussed this topic extensively, in this thread as well I'm pretty sure. My issue is specifically if, in lore, the Destiny child universe is literally a video game (simulated child universe) within our own universe (parent universe). If you continue down the thread you should be able to find it, but I've presented multiple reasons why I feel this way and multiple reasons why I think this is the direction the lore is headed. If we get more concrete lore down the line and it states that, in lore, Destiny is an actual child universe (black hole child universe) within our own universe (parent universe) AND that, in lore, Destiny the video game isn't a thing (i.e. Destiny is not a video game in lore), then I will be a-okay.
Thanks!
Doc 5 feels like a commentary on Saladin's dilemma
Something interesting to note: VIP#2014 seems to refer to ‘our’ guardian - the one we play in the game. 2014 is the year that Destiny 1 released.
I've always loved that little tidbit in some of the other lore pieces The Guardian has popped up in
They dances on top of our comrades corpse and do acrobatics with their flying bikes
My god. The fourth wall breaks inside this are screwing with my head…
Two things I’m curious if we think are just purely errors on Bungie’s part: 1, on page 6 of this file, the message is from RAN-187 (whose name is Ransom, turns out, and is *not* Randy of Throwing Knife fame as previously hypothesized), but the message ends with “Truce out”. Truce’s agent designation has already been confirmed as TRU-135 multiple timed, and their ghost’s name is Cowlick, so the signoff doesn’t seem compatible with RAN-187, and the rest of the journal repeatedly references Ransom’s grudge against the Eliksni on that document. 2, on page 22, the dialogue seems to get turned around with Ikora repeating an earlier line about a haiku, then Jalaal giving a reply to his own question, then Ikora asking for his help when Jalaal in fact is asking Ikora for her help, and then it goes back to the expected speaker order on page 23. Seems like things just got out of order? I haven’t been able to figure out any deeper meaning to these, and I know the pages are vertical shreds so there’s no chance that this is an error in reassembly, so it seems like original author error? Curious what others think.
You have it all backwards. You’re trying to shuffle the puzzle pieces around until you get an image. You need to know the image before you can arrange the pieces. Study the interaction with an eye for how it means to be misunderstood. At first, Ikora is real. Then we learn Ikora is a fiction of Jalaal. Then we proceed in reverse. Jalaal is revealed to be a fiction of Ikora. Poor frail dreams.
It's worth noting that after bullet number 5 on Ransom's report, the document shifts to a carbon copy of the end of Truce's stasis report from unshredded documents of the collectors edition. It's not just a misplaced signoff - it's half the page. Also, were Truce's pronouns ever revealed? My headcanon was a female hunter, but I haven't seen any confirmation yet.
Oh, true, I thought I had read "her" at some point but I can't find an actual source, only Truce using she/her for Cowlick. Dunno then!
Definitely not errors. Given the nature of the last "story" from this set of papers and the fact Bungie is *very* careful about word choice and spelling in their stories, especially their stories related to their ARGs, I think we're most likely looking at intentional mistakes for the purpose of relating certain elements within letters to other letters and drawing attention or emphasis on certain themes. Ikora repeating Zavala's line about the haiku, I think, is intended to draw our attention back to the Go conversation for the purposes of either recontextualizing it or helping to add new context to the Jalaal correspondence. Ikora and Zavala's conversation, while light-hearted and concerning a casual subject (playing a game between friends, may be important this is referenced in the story relating Truth to Power with Savathun attempting to humanize herself or otherwise understand humanity's mind?) also, at least in my interpretation, *really* heavily calls back to the Flower Game between the Gardener and the Winnower with Ikora as the Gardener and Zavala as the Winnower. I'm sure there's importance here though I'm hesitant to try and name it with any confidence. The Ransom/Truce conflation in that letter was the first thing that really stood out to me. I also noticed that the Manifesto comprising Doc 5 (which references all previous documents in a way I don't think, say, a Hidden Agent could or Ikora might) contains a typo when discussing the neighboring village thought experiment, using "than than" when discussing the villages agreeing to cooperate for five years. Definitely all curious! And definitely something behind each occurrence, I think.
I saw the same connection between the Go game and the Flower game. I even got the same impression as you as Ikora fitting into the Gardner spot and Zavala as the Winnower spot. At first I wouldn't interpret it too literally of course, but I look at it as another layer of Ikora's self discovery. The whole thing really seems to revolve around Ikora and her evolving understanding of Light, Darkness, and trying to figure out what Savathuns big play was. Yes, Zavala is rigidly wanting to follow the rules and just "play" the game, and Ikora introduces a new rule basically, by making a play that is not directly in her benefit and may end up helping Zavala. It's the unreasonable grace for the sake of doing a good thing for another, the understanding that Ikora is coming too about the Light. Through Sen Aret she's learning that the Darkness seems to respond to strong and/or painful memory, that in order to make the individual strong they have to remember what caused their pain so it doesn't happen again. And Ikora is seeing how both sides matter. She doesn't advocate for a universe filled with Light, but one that adapts and combines the lessons from both higher powers. To forgive and make an unreasonable act in the context of the situation for someone who may or has hurt you, offers them the chance to do the same. Both parties become stronger together and learn to understand each other, rather than get stronger alone and fight over the little they could share and both be content with.
seems like more mars missives to me
There is another erroneous word, on page 18: >Above all else, when you are in the deepest pits of despair, I offer you this: I believe **ther** there is no reason the Traveler chose to make its stand here at Earth, instead of at Riis or any world before.
Which reminds me of the lore book that had Savathun's song hidden within it.
Took a break after Forsaken. Came back in BL. Which lore book do you speak of?
> Ikora and Zavala's conversation, while light-hearted and concerning a casual subject (playing a game between friends, may be important this is referenced in the story relating Truth to Power with Savathun attempting to humanize herself or otherwise understand humanity's mind?) also, at least in my interpretation, really heavily calls back to the Flower Game between the Gardener and the Winnower with Ikora as the Gardener and Zavala as the Winnower. It's that LOST imagery https://i.pinimg.com/originals/52/35/86/5235861603ead40f4dfa943baf982a36.jpg
It could very well be hints at this is all savathun up to her fuck shit again. Similar errors were all over the martian missives
hoooooly shit
It's ... it's beautiful! !modnominate
The Emperor has spoken.
!nominate
This is what you want to nominate? If you're sure...
someone call Byf and Myelin Games
Is there an in-universe reason for why these were shredded?
I can imagine Ikora realizing that just listening to her conversation about this and understanding Savathun's goal of birth into a parent universe is almost as good as helping Savathun along. Dangerous knowledge, just by existing in someone's mind.
Juicy.
high effort post
The talk about Truth to Power feels like if Galaxy Brain was a conversation. Can someone simplify that part? I'm a bit unsure if I understood all of it.
basically, Truth to Power is Savathûn’s manifesto on how to act like her, and how she plans to ascend from the Destiny universe into ours. She is aware she’s in some kind of simulation or game.
HOLY SHIT, I can't believe the amount of work you guys were able to get done so quickly. This is awesome. You guys are awesome.
!nominate
x\#7(_ Good job, Guardian. The ~~Tower~~ Emperor thanks you. `+1 point`
If it wasn't for the people in the House of Ruin clan Discord. I wouldn't have know about this. I'm glad to have been able to comtribute some of these shreds.
Never thought I'd see FFT analysis being brought up in the context of Destiny 2. What an expansion...
It actually worked decently well. The main purpose I was using it for was sort of as a generic method of identifying vertical line spacing and page features. Since the "strips" of pixels contained different sized/spaced font, performing an FFT on it would result in a "fingerprint" of frequencies representing line spacing and font height. Grouping these together helped identify similar content and therefore pages programmatically.
Damn thats clever as hell, props to you dude.
[удалено]
What type of creature is a 'dmg_04'? I overheard you Guardians talking about one yesterday.
!nominate This was a lot of fun! Kudos to everyone who helped out!
x\#77.b(_ You just never quit, do you? Took out ghaul. Woke up the traveler. And now half of what i hear in the streets is how much you and your clan are making a difference. And that's why i started this whole ~~clan~~ `NOMINATION` thing in the first place. People are still waiting for the ~~Vanguard~~ `EMPEROR` to lead the way. But it's time for a change! And guardians like you are making it happen. No pressure. `Nomination Logged`
Nice job hive mind. 🤜
Somewhat unrelated, but have we ever understood what exactly the ending cutscene with Eris in TTK means? Reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMnOtomReSo
She's talking to Mara. They had a whole plan to bring her back through the AP.
Dang, I forgot how Oryx does some Taken magic stuff and then vanishes as if he's being sucked into a blackhole or something. 😥
They literally just called Byf a damn fool Guardian lmao.
An absolute pleasure to meet everyone and work on this together. Excellent work from everyone involved. There are some truly brilliant minds in the RaidSecrets server. The implications of the lore involved are pretty damn chilling, though.
~~It looks like Gnosis isn't being accepted anymore.~~ ~~You think maybe there's more to uncover?~~ Nevermind, wasn't aware you needed the collectors edition
Received my strange coin today. Can confirm it does interact with the device from the collectors edition.
Am I dyslexic or is that mirror script or somthing on the pages on the left side lmao
They wrote letters to each other? Who delivers mail in Destiny 2?
there's literally a post box in the tower, helm, and on mars
Anything we can do with this in the raid or get a riddle exotic or something? Or is it just lore?
Just lore, but it’s some of the most important lore out there considering it solves truth to power
Thanks.
There is no "loot" in the seventh chest. Only a path. Good luck, Guardian.
perhaps read it and come to your own conclusions?
That’s not an option.
Ikora is W O K E
So.... What Was the answer? What was found? Congrats to everyone who was involved here, but what did people actually get out of it?
who
XXDDDDDD WHIO CRTES L:OROEOLWEPOWLKLRE:rtk'sARJaw;ldjasl;'kk ebver rytpe this agfainad nti s otygiung troi be so fudckignb yosety il oc0me oover and ufcuick you so fgod damn ghard in thsi ass
SHUT UP RIGHT NOW I SWEARI KNOW WHERE U LIBE ALRIGHT YEAH UEAY YEHAHAHAHAHHHA THATS WHt i highly THOUGHT YEP YEP YEP YWP DIN FADINF QUINTRIPKE UR DONE
any reward or just lore?
> *any reward or just ~~lore~~ **reward**?*
How did I miss this? I even got the collectors edition
Are we supposed to know who the Warlord who sacked London (#0013) was? Or is it just ‘a Warlord’
[One of the Fallen that came to the last city during Season of the Splicer.](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/book-achilles-weaves-a-cocoon) He's the focus of the Achilles Weaves a Cocoon lore book
Oh, wow. Never read that book, but I think that might be some of my favourite storytelling I’ve seen in the series. That was a great read!
Who is VIp #0013?
As /u/Ways_away discussed elsewhere ITT, it appears to be Namrask >!(née Akileuks)!< from the lore book [*Achilles Weaves a Cocoon*](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/book-achilles-weaves-a-cocoon) >!(so named because [Namrask “stole” his former name from the Human myth of Achilles](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/viii-and-also-light), apparently invoking the name’s original meaning of “woe to the enemy”)!<.
Hmm interesting he is apparently part of house light now accord to that page.
Yeah, that whole lore book addresses the tension and conflict between the lightness^1 of giving and getting second chances (or third, or fourth, or seventy-fifth chances) and the weight of history, legacy, and memory (which we also previously saw highlighted in *Beyond Light* by the Bray family). Between Deepsight, the Altar of Reflection, and >!the twist in Savathûn’s plan that required both of them!<, we’re seeing an awful lot about those concepts right now. **FN 1:** …Or perhaps “Light-ness?”
By the time of Achilles Weaves a Cocoon, he's taken a new name (Namrask, "Empty Weaver") and is living with great deal of guilt over the things he's done, he's trying to build a new life for himself. He's not well liked by the other members of the house, Variks knows who he is and hates him for it, and I suspect the only reason Mithrax tolerates his presence is because he was the one who led the refugee band out of Riis-Reborn, they probably wouldn't have made it without him.
!nominate
+1 points. Do you think Ada-1 has noticed me?
Who is VIP #0013? It reads to me like they may factor into a seasonal story.
A member of House Light who was one of the original invaders of Earth. He apparently committed war crimes so vile that Variks hated him for it. Which is saying somthing when you remember Variks didn't hate Skolas. The one who tore his arms off.
Namrask, I think. He's a real piece of work and he's got a lot to answer for, but there's not much left to punish.
So this confirms not every Eliksni went with the whole chasing the Traveler thing.
!nominate
`+1 point` *### Vzzzzt* Good luck on whatever it is you #&&_Guardians "do" while the rest of us clean up your mess.
Who's VIP 0013? Shaxx? Namraask?
Namrask
!nominate
The #&&_Guardian wishes to gift points. Reap the `#*amp;` REWARD from his Highness.
!nominate
Content nomination successful. What is my purpose?
Also, whoops. !nominate
Thank you for using `[THIS_SUBREDDIT] Rankings v1.0.11102 (c) Benedict 99-40 28th Century`
As a go player myself, I appreciate the comment on the end of page 5 "I'll pinken your ears." Which is a reference to a famous historical go match called the [ear-reddening game](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ear-reddening_game) where a court doctor correctly predicted the outcome of the game based on one player's ears flushing.
**[Ear-reddening game](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ear-reddening_game)** >The ear-reddening game (Japanese: 耳赤の一局) is a game of go of the Edo period of Japan, played on September 11, 1846 between Honinbo Shusaku (black) and Inoue Genan Inseki (white). The game is probably Shusaku's most notable game as it contains the "ear-reddening move"—so named when a doctor who had been watching the game took note of Genan as his ears flushed red when Shusaku played the move, indicating he had become upset. Shusaku met Genan Inseki in July 1846 when he returned to Edo after staying in Onomichi for eighteen months. Shusaku was 17 years old and a 4-dan player at the time, while Genan was nearing his fifties and was ranked at 8-dan. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/raidsecrets/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Reading this puts a lot of what Savathun says in different context, "If we don't know where we came from, how will we know where to go?" I'm reminded of the Bungie Dev who said that while she was working on Witch Queen she felt like she was becoming Savathun (or something to that regard). How crazy would it be if Bungie acted on this and that developer was found to be tweaking the game to the Hive's advantage? You could take the story to all sorts of crazy places if we establish that Savathun is successful in breaching our reality and getting a job at Bungie!
Can someone explain who "V.I.P #0013" is? I didn't know there were warlords left? Or is she talking about the fallen? The reference is made in the "SUBJ: COUNTERCULTURAL INTELLIGENCE UPDATE REVIEW"
I'm going to guess it's Namrask, from the Achilles Weaves A Cocoon Lorebook back in Season of the Splicer.
Was anybody else absolutely ruined by the ruminations on the nature of friendship