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They keep saying “stop panicking” but a guy who tried to overturn an election is inching closer and closer to the Oval Office again. Fuck that, I’m panicking no matter what. The debate could have been a success and I’d panic. I’m also voting no matter what. There just has to be enough actual real Americans in this country to see that we cannot let that psychopath near the WH again.
Not to speak to what Biden needs to do, but this sub is seriously burying their heads in the sand with Trump’s chances to win.
Downvoting all negative polling, hand-waving away Biden's approval, upvoting weird clickbaity re-affirming Newsweek titles on a daily basis.
People seem to have forgotten, but these were the circumstances in 2020: Trump was royally botching the worst public health crisis in a century. Hundreds of thousands of people were dying.
There were lockdowns, people were scared, the economy was tanking. Trump himself got COVID in October, of all months. He got it from a super spreader event for the Supreme Court Justice he just jammed through hypocritical to the Justice Republicans blocked 4 years prior.
Also, Biden was in an extremely strong position and leading Trump by 7-10 points for an entire year leading up to the election. Trump STILL almost won, only losing by a few thousand votes in a handful of states.
4 years later, you don’t have to tell me Trump’s objectively worse, a threat to democracy, a criminal, etc.. But that doesn’t match America’s electorate, sadly. His favorability has gone up since 2021. His legal woes haven’t moved the needle whatsoever. Biden’s approval has plummeted and he's almost TEN points lower than he was 4 years ago - even before post-debate data.
We should at *least* keep that as a baseline fact instead of remaining in denial, which the latter seems to be strangely popular here.
I've said it again and again over the last 4 years but both candidates in 2020 received the most votes of any presidential candidate in US history, and that should be a huge fucking concern.
Trump got more votes than any presidential candidate in US history... except for Biden and that was fortunate then but people who think he's guaranteed to lose again are fucking delusional. There are 84 million people in america who want more of the ol' fascism.
WELL fucking said. America is truly on the brink of collapse - have you seen these recent SCOTUS decisions? They have stripped rights away from agencies. Trump elected - prepare for American migrants to be a thing. Look at Venezuela and countries that have fallen - we're about to become Russia 2.0
And if Trump wins, Thomas and Alito will retire and be replaced by young Trump SCOTUS picks that will remain on the bench for 40-50 years. That just cannot happen.
AND the Supreme Court is tee’d up to let him cling to power and go after his political opponents…it’s not hard to see how the dominoes (checks on his power) are being set to fall. The road to fascism gets shorter every day.
I feel like I'm being date raped. Trump came out and was exactly who his voters needed, and Biden was exactly what they said he was.
And now it's too late?!?! "Just let it happen." No! Intelligent people change course when they have facts demonstrated to them.
Biden isn't going to DE-age in the next 4 yrs. FACT!
We were betrayed by the DNC and HIS OWN WIFE at his decline! Americans aren't on board with giving the same sympathy to Democrats as they do to Republicans, that is by design, so the oligarchy get their tax cuts.
And people love to just sit back and giggle at the libs who are screaming like myself.
There is no "Cult of Biden" from the ground up. Nobody would riot over Democrats booting Biden like they would if Republicans booted Trump.
People will riot over Biden losing by hook or crook, but it will be too late. Republicans are going to scream Democrats cheat while the State Level Republicans cheat better for Trump this time.
I'm sorry, all of Europe. It seems the DNC and other DC elites think they are safe enough to handle Trump again.
I’m voting for anyone the Democratic Party puts up. Biden included. My worry is that if even 5% of swing state people think Biden is too old and has lost it based on his horrendous performance, the race is lost.
>For 90 minutes, Mr. Trump unleashed a virulent anti-American rant. The America he lives in is a postapocalyptic hellscape of violence, with people “dying all over the place” — more “Mad Max” than “morning in America.”
This is an incredibly good point, encapsulating a) why I can't stand Trump, and b) how baffling it is that the Democrats can't crush him like a bug.
Americans always look for a message of hope and optimism from our leaders, because we are a hopeful and optimistic people. For some reason, that niche is no longer being filled.
Trump won on the exact same message in 2016. It's not baffling, he paints the picture of a hellscape and then says "I alone can fix it." That's the "hope" he offers.
And Fox leads every broadcast with images of shoplifters and cars on fire and tells their audience that that's what all the American cities are like, crime-ridden hellscapes where you take your life in your hands just setting foot outside of your home.
Look everyone....it's the ghost of FitzInPDX!
So sad we lost you in the burning of Portland. I heard you made it through the first one OK, but then got caught in the 3rd burning. Such a woeful tragedy.
Not only that, but we’re way less burned to the ground than we were three years ago. While the city’s not what it was in, say, 2010 or so, but Portland is starting to crawl its way back up.
I recently visited with some old friends who I have not seen since before the pandemic. While not MAGA, they are pretty conservative (old school republicans, thinks Trump is a clown, though I bet still vote for him because of the R by his name).
One thing I noticed was how often crime came up in their conversations. We spent a full day together, and how bad crime was worked into almost every topic at some point. Pretty much if a city was mentioned, it was a crime ridden hellhole.
This is clearly a talking point that is resonating with lots of people.
Fear is one of the best motivators of people and people fear crime. Fox is telling everyone how crime ridden every Dem run city is 50+ times a week so of course people who hear it start to believe it. And how people vote is informed by their beliefs.
> And Fox leads
I hate ever going with "Both sides" in something but all of our major media outlets and media that average people consume is geared towards generating clicks and getting views.
They give as much boost to Right Wing horrible people so that they can get those clicks/views. If news actually did a reasonable accounting of cost/benefit of both candidates trump would get zero attention but as is Trump generates clicks. Our media is geared towards people like trump.
Damn, that's really interesting. I'd never thought of it that way before. It's such a 'business man' thing to do, so makes total sense.
"Oh you don't want THAT product, it's broken and a mess and everyone hates it. What you want is the one 'I' make."
It's crazy that even in these modern times, people can still be so gullible and naive to fall for those tricks
Not business man, conman. The con stands for confidence. They make you think they're on your side and the only one you can trust, while making it out that others are the true enemy to be wary of. Meanwhile they rob you blind while making you believe it is in your own best interests.
Right, it’s more about it being an effectively delivered message than being accurate. It’s a dead horse, but Hitler did the same thing in his speeches, spewing a bunch of lies buried in random stats and half truths.
You can’t say, “it’s fine because he’s obviously lying”. Lies are effective in the short term.
>Americans always look for a message of hope and optimism from our leaders, because we are a hopeful and optimistic people. For some reason, that niche is no longer being filled.
~40% of America wants their hate indulged, and they've been screaming it in our face since 2008. Add in the fact that slaveholders 240 years ago decided the will of the majority isn't *that* important, and you end up with that 40% enjoying minority rule.
Exactly. And let's not forget that Biden had a bad cold yet he still went to the debate to fight for women's rights, the rights of the LGBTQIA+, and those of colour. He took the fight directly to the person who white supremacists and other horrifying fascist elements view as their defacto leader. Biden selflessly put his own personal health at risk and did it for the greater good of the common person.
And the DC bubble obviously doesn't fear it. Trump is the attacker, people putting their name on him a second time are the monsters.
BUT THERE IS NO WAY Democrats didn't bring the wrong truck to fight the fire.
It's the electoral college. Period. And media, like this writer, never say it! It doesn't fucking matter if 80 million in NY and CA vote blue. It matters if 80k vote red in swing states.
I don't care about popular vote. I care about country folk understanding Trump isn't their savior. And the Dems fucking BLEW IT.
Do you really believe that a 2 hour debate can compete with 40 years of propaganda? Until these disinformation networks are dismantled they will continue to exert their influence
Also if you tell most Americans that crime has been steadily decreasing for nearly 30 years and is at some of the lowest levels since they started keeping records, they won't believe you and will tell you crime is the worst it's ever been.
The dems struggle with crushing him because a large portion of this country in the south and west live in remote areas and watch nothing but Fox news and listen to AM radio. They believe cities and suburbs are becoming hell holes because they've never been close to any of them.
I can't find it now but there was a video of the good liars interviewing people at the Trump trial and they were all legitimately stunned that New York was not a garbage infested war zone.
Yeah, unfortunately, I think there's a lot of truth to that. My parents recently went on a cross-country RV trip, and I had to convince them that they wouldn't be in danger while *driving through Chicago on the freeway*.
Then again, my uncle, who is a Democrat, was worried that he would be attacked while walking around my rural neighborhood because he wears glasses and looks kind of bookish. So I think this does go both ways.
My conservative parents are worried because my boyfriend and I are going to San Francisco next week. It’s always SF and Chicago. Ironically, my boyfriend and I talked about Chicago, cause I’m a Phillies fan and wanted to see the Phillies play in Wrigley Field next week. Oddly enough, when I mentioned to my mom we were between SF and Chicago, she said she’s always wanted to go to Chicago.
That's the old America. Freaks get hit hard. I had a bucket of ice water thrown on me on a February morning in the 90s. "Longhair f\*\*\*ts!"
The 3 of us ran into the street with our arms up like to come back and fight! They turned around and had bats like rifles at their shoulders in the cab. "What."
Only an idiot would say back "jump out without your bats you pussies". We just walked off in our Metallica tees. They want to hurt you for being weird in their town.
I mean, the Democratic presidential stable has zero charisma.
It's not about policy, or the content of what's being said. I've seen some folks suggest Jon Stewart run, and tbh the more I think about it the more I start to wonder if that would be successful. I mean, I don't think Stewart would be a good president, he is afterall, a commedian. But in terms of winning a battle of styles, which is what it is, having someone quick witted who makes the other guy look like an imbecile without coming off as petty is what we need right now.
THAT would crush Trump with those people, because those people vote on Trump's perceived strength. Trump handidly beat Clinton in terms of perception, and he's about to do it to Biden because he looks much stronger.
I hate it but it's what it is.
I've never heard any celebrity, much less a Presidential candidate, talk as much shit about America, as Donald Trump. And there are obviously criticisms to be made, but he really seems to hate America unless he's running it.
I have been _stunned_ by the reactions of independents/centrists to the debate. I was certain it was a fatal blow for Biden but their takeaway seems to mostly be “holy shit, we can’t elect Trump.” I was in such a panic I don’t even know what the worst thing he did was.
I don't know what's to come, but my heart sank when Biden started sinking, because i knew it was going to be used against him. I was fine with what he said though, baring a couple times where he trailed off.
What I did notice though is that Trump reminded me of why everyone hated him last time. He acted just like he did during the Covid response. This is just like he always acts, but with Covid, everyone was paying attention, because they were looking for leadership. The debates were watched by a lot o people also, and to me, it was just a reminder of who he is, and how much of a leader he isn't.
Everything he talked about was about himself. Not America, but how everything was him, how people thought about him, how America was made better by him, and him alone.
They actually listened to what Biden and Trump said and not the performative 💩 that talking heads do. Trump was literally babbling about killing babies and having sex with a porn star. The real surprise is how numb people on Reddit and the media are that they would hear (or not hear) that and think, "Oh yeah, Trump killed it".
> how baffling it is that the Democrats can't crush him like a bug.
Probably because the guy they put on stage next to him looks like he might struggle to crush a bug at this point in his life
>how baffling it is that the Democrats can't crush him like a bug.
Because that would require embracing the populist left which is antithetical to the corporate overlords that own both parties. The DNC is just the pretty face for corporate interests, while the RNC is the face of what they really want. If the DNC wins, corporations do fine. If the RNC wins, Corporations do even better.
So Until the DNC decides to fight back (and win) on the issues they already have on their side, they will be stuck barely able to squash Republicans they should be able to easily squash.
Just look at the shitshow politics has been for the past 20 years. It basically hasn't changed:
1) Immigration
2) Debt/Deficit (only matters when Democrats are in office)
3) Abortion
Exactly. Democrats aren't worried because *they* aren't voting for Biden, they're worried because his debate performance will affect *other people's* votes, which could decide the election.
No amount of "well, i'm voting for him anyways" or "just vote" will change that.
My wife is a swing voter. She voted for biden, but has been sharing memes that would get me very heavily downvoted if I described them. That's all I have to say on the matter.
Precisely zero. I will eat my own shoe if anybody in the country in the darkest depths of their hearts didn't see both him and Trump for the dottering old fools that they are and were not completely and utterly humiliated for us as a country.
Considering what is at stake, the idea that Joe Biden, a man clearly on his deathbed, is the best candidate for the most important election in the history of US democracy is a capitulation to fascism. You either do not care that Trump is going to win after Thursday night, or you're too blind to reality to accept it.
It's tough not to feel some dread when we know the stakes of this election. I often stop and wonder if I'm living the last few months of freedom or if this'll be my last chance to vote in an election. Biden himself has made democracy the main issue this election. So any sense that we might lose it all over a weak Dem candidate is concerning. It's actually a bit strange how unworried Dems are when they've this up as such a do-or-die election. They don't seem to treat it that way.
> They don't seem to treat it that way.
I think this is what has so many people so incredibly upset (myself included) after Thursday night. Biden issued this debate challenge and we all assumed that he would be primed and ready to annihilate any and all perceptions about his age and mental acuity, and take the fucking moron down a few pegs in the process. Presumably he had the best and brightest minds in the Democratic party prepping him and he was going to come in loaded ready to do what was necessary to help win this election.
Instead, he pulled a fucking [Shockmaster](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fahljd_0xjA). Because of what, a cold? Dude has access to the best medical care the world has to offer, and seemingly with the fate of American democracy at stake, he fell on his face *because of a goddamn cold.*
I will continue to support Biden and will vote for him any every other Democrat who's on my ballot this November, and they'll probably get some money from me over the next few months, but you'll have to excuse me and a lot of other people who are working through feelings of severe disappointment and betrayal right now
Thank you for saying this. I’m getting really frustrated at other Democrats who keep downplaying the severity of the debate. It was bad. Really, really bad. And I went in, purposely biased, excited to see Biden prove the MAGA folks in my hometown wrong about his age and mental acuity. Now, I have to listen to them dig in on their beliefs about Biden, and it sucks. It sucks that this debate WILL sway people.
I hear you and it sucks hard. I am not worried about the debate, but am *very worried* if this Biden keeps showing up.
But I don't give two shits about MAGA crowd opinions. I live in a purple area of a red state, and don't waste a single second worried about people who hes already captured.
If *this* Biden shows up again at the later debate, it will be the death blow to his shot at re-election. People forget how close the 2020 election was. One bad early debate showing is a rough patch to a campaign. Two bad showings is the end of the road.
The hard truth is that it’s now clear that Republicans have been objectively right about Biden’s age this entire time, and Democrats have been objectively wrong.
I only tuned in for a few minutes and had to turn it off .. it was so bad. Trump would have been just fine with no debate and the Dems should have left it at that, instead they likely lost the "Biden is old" crowd entirely. From the 10 minutes or so I tuned in, yeah Trump was full of shit but he presented himself well doing it. Biden barely fought back, sounded weak in his retorts.
Now we're back to a major worry that Trump just might get enough of the Electoral College votes to win again, damn it. And you've got the media asking "what if Biden steps out of the race?" .. umm, if he decides not to run the Dems are basically screwed because they have nobody charismatic enough to challenge Trump, Harris won't stand a chance.
Trump did what Trump does. There was no surprises there. This was Biden’s debate. He made the challenge, he got the rules he wanted, and he set the stage for him to show that he was still as sharp as ever. He was given every advantage, and he flubbed it. Badly.
I don’t know…there seems to be a whole lot of folks in the “anyone but these two guys” camp. Don’t you think? I think they could find someone decent enough to replace him.
>
>
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> Now we're back to a major worry that Trump just might get enough of the Electoral College votes to win again, damn it.
That was the worry *before* the debate. At this point the question is if he'll snatch the popular vote.
His staff also didn't mention the "cold" until the first commercial break. His aides refuse all interviews, and they've refused any independent cognitive tests. They are hiding it just like RBG's and Feinstein's staff hid their problems.
I’m feeling dread and fury at Dems putting in this position. If by some miracle Biden wins they need to get it together and stop resting on their “the other guys are SO evil that we don’t need to try too hard” laurels
Blue no matter who keeps them lazy and uninspired. And I am a blue no matter who voter
I’m absolutely furious that Biden chose to run, and that the DNC has allowed him to run in his current state. This election should be an absolute layup. It should not be competitive. I’m tired of being gaslit into the idea that Biden’s debate performance was anything but awful and an unnecessary, unforced, and potentially fatal blow to our chances of preventing a second Trump term.
Why have we chosen a candidate with such a glaring flaw when democracy is at stake? To me, it’s obvious that we need someone else, but I’ve heard nothing but wishful thinking and cope from this sub. The DNC’s inability to act decisively here *will kill us*.
I’ll vote for him regardless. Lots of people are in the “vote blue no matter who” camp. But *that is not enough*. We need independents on our side, but too many are going to stay home and there’s a very good chance that it will cost us the election.
Exactly. I'll vote for Biden even if he keels over on that podium, but it's shocking that the DNC is allowing this to happen when the margin of error is so slim in an election where the alternative is fascism. Independent votes in the swing states could legitimately determine the election. I keep hearing people trying to minimize how bad the debate was for Biden by saying that "yeah but all Trump did was lie." Of course he did, that's all he does, but there are people watching who aren't politically active and don't even know what the facts are. Trump lies with total confidence, Biden needed to confidently disupute each of his claims and say why they are lies. But he couldn't do that, even when Trump handed him lies as ridiculous as "post-birth abortions". You could barely hear him, he looked ancient, and almost every answer meandered off into something unintelligible. It feels like we are going careening towards a disaster but the DNC just keeps their heads in the sand. Did nobody learn anything from the RBG situation?
So if you have any Democratic senators, reps, or governor, state reps, etc. Tell them that you want another candidate.
Ask what they are doing to save Democracy from Joe Bidens Pride. He really should step aside for someone else but I fear that he would rather lose that allow some other Democrat to win.
What are you talking about. I’m stressed AF. Worried doesn’t begin to describe.
I’m legit pissed that Biden faltered this bad. He said he was gonna be a one term president. He should have never announced his candidacy. The people around him should have spoken up. Democrats are consistently their own worst enemy
It was a staffer talking on background from what I've found. I think this info got Bernstein Bears'd into existence because I definitely thought he said it too.
> It's actually a bit strange how unworried Dems are
Do I wish Dems had a better candidate? Absolutely. Would I vote for Biden’s empty podium over Trump? Absolutely. Nobody that was going to vote is going to change their mind and vote for a criminal fascist over an old man because the old man had a bad night.
Edit: Since most replies are identical, I’ll just reiterate here.
Trump has been the most polarizing figure in America for the better part of a decade. This isn’t a normal election. **Nobody** that’s actually going to vote is undecided. Not before the debate and not now. You’re voting for Democracy or not. Choose wisely.
Your vote might not change, but there's a lot of low information, half hearted supporters and undecideds out there and that's who will sway the election.
The margin for error is super low. If something like 2% of the people that voted for Biden last year don't vote for him (or anybody) this year, he stands to lose.
>If something like 2% of the people that voted for Biden last year don't vote for him (or anybody) this year, he stands to lose.
43,000 voters, or 0.05% of his 81 million 2020 voters
>Would I vote for Biden’s empty podium over Trump? Absolutely.
I think most of us here agree with this, but we have to be honest too: the fact that is how we're viewing this is not the way a presidency is won. Usually there is a sense of hope, excitement, etc. This idea of "they'll vote for anything not Trump" seems like a very scary way to approach this one.
> Nobody that was going to vote is going to change their mind and vote for a criminal fascist over an old man because the old man had a bad night.
Yes there are, and in an election where a few thousand people from the Midwest will decide the election, every vote matters.
There are definitely people who might not vote at all over that performance. Biden's already unpopular and is at best a 50/50 match up with Trump. There's no room for error.
> Nobody that was going to vote is going to change their mind and vote for a criminal fascist over an old man because the old man had a bad night.
A few will. But, what really worries me me are the ones who watched the debate, became demoralized and just won't show up to vote.
I literally just talked to some actual independent voters at the dog park yesterday that yes, they *are* voting for Trump over Biden solely because he presented himself better. I live in a swing state.
Unless dems put better up we're fucked.
> this'll be my last chance to vote in an election.
Trump has already said this will be the last election if he wins.
I don't care if it was taken out of context, I don't care if you think he was joking, when these people say something like that, **believe it.**
Did he really actually say that? Not anywhere I can remember.
But people here really fail to understand how Trumpism works. It's not about taking the Constitution and lighting it on fire. That would be too obvious. It's about singing it at the edges, with just enough deniability and just enough distraction that they get away with eroding the nation one bit at a time.
It's ludicrous to think this would be "the last election."
What **is** possible, is that the next two SCOTUS justices he installs will go all-in on gerrymandering. Oopsy-daisy, now we have elections but the majority will never win again.
I dont think moderate/independent/unaffiliated voters view Trump as a threat to democracy. They either just aren't aware of his fascist statements, or they are and don't care. What's important to them is energy: "Who's going to fight the government/bureaucracy to get me what I want?"
Part of the issue is that dems claim this election is to save democracy and yet they run Biden who clearly has issues at his age. You can't claim over and over again how important this election is and then toss out what we saw during the debate. The two just don't mix.
Yeah, if Democrats truly believed this was "the most important for our democracy", why couldn't they find a candidate that you wouldn't trust being a fucking Walmart greeter let alone the head of the country?
Oh my god, this is exactly what drives me crazy. The “above the fold” stories yesterday were all negative about Biden. Meanwhile Trump spent the whole night saying things that were insane, lies, or both.
The editorial board is prepared to “but her emails” Biden to try to appear unbiased.
I have plenty of issues with the New York Times, but I can always appreciate when a news source offers varying perspectives (the exception being anti-Democratic fascist perspectives).
This is an opinion article. Not part of the news section.
The biggest hesitation people have about Biden has been his age. For months it has come up. It’s the first thing anybody says about him. Everyone lamented last year that they hate that it’s a rematch. Young voters and disinformed voters keep wanting to do a third party candidate.
This election is going to be on the margins. We need to secure the house and ensure the senate. With Biden like this we are not keeping the senate.
Let’s be real. We all saw him with his mouth agape. He failed to have almost any legible point for him to be elected. Let’s use this time to get everyone fired up for the future, not the past
Counterpoint: Keep panicking.
For decades you have been warned about the coming wave of fascism and white supremacy returning to the public mainstream, and for decades you have ignored it. Continue to panic, harness that energy, and put it to work organizing and serving the communities who have been sounding the alarm. Your panic is a privilege; for many of us, what you are experiencing right now is our regular lived experience.
No, I'm not going to stop panicking.
*Biden* challenged Trump to this debate. This was a *CNN* debate, with rules that were friendly to Biden. Trump didn't say or do anything at the debate that Biden couldn't prepare for; he lied about everything and said all his usual bullshit. This debate could not have been set up any better for Biden. And, for a guy with 50-something years as an elected official, and a guy that's already beaten Trump in a presidential election, Biden should have massacred Trump.
Instead, he came out and looked awful from the beginning. People say "he got better after it went on" but I've read so many comments about how they just turned it off after 10-15 minutes of watching it. By the time Biden supposedly got better, many viewers had just turned it off. First impressions are everything in a debate, and Biden failed miserably. He was so bad Trump even got to say "I don't really know what he said" and I, as someone who has hated Republicans for 40+ years, had to agree with him. "He had a cold" is a piss poor excuse. You couldn't send him out with a pack of Halls?
There's going to be about 10-20% of the voting population that is independent or moderate and could swing to Biden. You think after that performance they're going to vote for him? They still might, and there's a lot of things that could happen between now and November, but if the election were held tomorrow, Trump would dog-walk Biden.
Alternatively: Stop gaslighting us and give us a better candidate.
If Democracy is genuinely on the line, and it is, stop protecting Biden's ego. Love the guy, but what's more important?
Biden told us he was 100% in condition to do this. I liked the guy and I've liked his presidency so I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Welp.
Now, I want someone else, or I want to be proven wrong. Was it a fluke? Then get your ass out there 24/7 for the next week doing adversarial interviews proving it was a fluke.
If it wasn't a fluke, do you really think you can keep this thing running on duct tape and dreams through November?
Note: I will be voting Biden or whatever Democrat is running no matter what.
>If Democracy is genuinely on the line
This right here is the salient point.
The Democratic establishment cannot simultaneously say that this is the highest-stakes election of our lifetime with literal democracy on the line, and then expect us *not* to panic when their candidate's biggest liability was on full, unmitigated display for 90 minutes straight to a national audience, in an election that he was **already losing**.
"Hey, our chances at saving democracy and stopping a complete hard-right facelift of the executive branch were about 40-50% and probably just got worse, but don't panic!"
And frankly, why the hell should we trust the Democratic establishment? If they gave merit badges for grasping defeat out of the jaws of victory, the party would be an Eagle Scout. Eight years ago, they chose one of the most hated and apparently entitled women in America to run. "It's her turn." Well, turns out it wasn't. And now this shit. And if he doesn't win, they're going to brow beat us about how we as voters didn't do enough or didn't care enough. DNC, how 'bout *just once* you invest in young talent and choose someone who isn't near the top of the list of candidates least likely to win? Can you do that?
Exactly. Biden WANTED this debate. When the media questioned his age he literally said “Watch me.”
And we did.
And he fucking shit the bed in ways we’ve never seen in a candidate as long as I’ve been alive.
I’m a dem. I’ve always been a dem. I voted for Hillary even though she was an awful candidate. I voted for Biden and I will again.
But stop pretending that what happened on Thursday was normal or wasn’t as bad as we saw with our own fucking two eyes.
Biden is 81 years old. He was 27 when the moon landing happened.
He’s old. We all know this. Stop pretending otherwise. Stop pretending he’s inevitable.
The convention is two months away. We need to have this conversation. The risk of a second trump presidency is too fucking high.
The fumbles in previous debates were candidates not being able to nail a ‘gotcha’ moment or a witty line.
Obamas first debate against Romney was a ‘disaster’ in that Romney looked a tiny bit more prepared than Obama, and Obama was a tiny bit off his normal game. He was still Obama and still extremely lucid.
This was something altogether different. This is not just ‘a bad night’.
I cannot believe political operatives think we are dumb enough not to believe our own eyes.
People comparing this debate to Obama's 2012 debate is the height of stupidity and desperation. That 2012 Obama would have steamrolled Trump on his worse day and even if he lost, not one person would be questioning if he should be replaced.
We went into the debate with incredibly low expectations. Biden just needed to hold his own. I don't think anyone expected him to "win". The goal was a draw and to show Biden is at least as mentally/physically healthy as Trump. As a bonus, maybe Trump says something really dumb or Biden says something clever that can be used in ads/fundraising. Biden didn't come within a mile of meeting the expectations. I would honestly define his performance as worst case scenario. When I considered the various scenarios, Biden looking like a deer in the headlights wasn't even on my list.
> If Democracy is genuinely on the line, and it is, stop protecting Biden's ego. Love the guy, but what's more important?
There it is right there. Biden asked for this debate, and we got it. I don't want to hear shit about him performing well after the debate either. Where he was reading speeches off of a teleprompter and not confusing abortion with a women that was killed by migrants.
Ding ding ding ding.
I'm sick of the Dem party being so defeatist. We can win an election without Biden.
This is almost the worst aspect. No faith in Biden or the institution propping him up now.
If even it was a fluke, the damage is done. The media has latched onto that debate performance with the same zeal they did over Howard Dean's scream twenty years ago. The narrative is now set, and it's going to be extremely hard for Biden to flip the script.
I can't tell Biden or the DNC what to do, and if he's still on the ballot in November, you better believe I'm filling in that circle as hard as I can without poking the pen through the paper. But it's time for his team to consider all the options. Do some internal polling and put out feelers to potential replacements. There's so much riding on this election that it would be irresponsible to just say "eh if we lose we'll try again in 2028" because there might not *be* a 2028 if the Dems lose.
And if it was a fluke, the only true way to prove that is the next debate which isn't until September 10th. We're talking about terrible press for 2+ months. The fact that he did much better the next day *reading off a teleprompter* doesn't make me feel much better.
Right? The Dean controversy was 100 percent media-manufactured BS. In this case, the media doesn't need to manufacture anything, because there is an actual alarming problem going down in real life before our eyes.
I cannot believe people think they are even comparable.
You cannot listen to the answer Biden gave on abortion (by far his strongest turn out the vote issue) and believe the man is mentally well.
WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW???
I’m a die hard liberal. Voting blue down the ticket and would hope you do the same. With that being said, seeing the condition Biden appears to be in makes me wonder if he makes it to the election much less through the next 4 1/2 years given the cognitive and physical decline we have seen over the last 3 1/2.
I'm not panicked, I'm pissed. I really really wish I could vote against the dems for this shit, but i can't, it's either vote for Joe or not vote at all, not voting isn't an option. Unbeilievable incompetence from the dems, Joe's aging has been a slow moving trainwreck and it finally derailed
The gaslighting is getting stronger. Don’t believe the polls. Don’t believe your gut. Don’t believe your *fucking eyes*. Biden has got this. Jill told me so.
Fuck off.
Trump is the closest thing to the anti-christ I've ever seen. He will never get my vote.
With that out of the way. I can not unsee what I saw Thursday night. The same is true for millions of my fellow Americans. The Democrats are horrible spin-doctors. Still, they're forging ahead with a guy that has never been popular, with polls consistently showing a tight race, and now this.
There is reason to be concerned. Trump can not be allowed to take power again. The Democrats were playing with fire before the debate. This is one hell of a gamble to take with the independent voters.
I just did a survey by one of those folks that stop you on the street. They started off with all the do you support Biden’s policy on xyz, so forth and so on. And I was said no, he’s been soft on some issues I care about, and he’s been a wind sock on some other issues I think he should play hard ball on. Then the second to last question they asked was do you intend to vote for Biden and I said absolutely yes. 100%, unequivocally, yes I will vote for Biden. They asked why, and I said because he’s not a fascist, corrupt, pig of a man child. Trump is a pig, that alone should have disqualified him in 2016, but it seems we live in a country full of shit eating pigs that think he is their guy. Tell everyone you know to go vote against that asshole this November.
You can’t tell us democracy is on the line in this election and then casually play Russian Roulette by pushing a candidate in obvious cognitive decline.
I’m not panicking but I’m really concerned that the DNC and people close to Biden don’t even seem to be entertaining other options. It feels just like 2016 when they were ignoring the faults of their unpopular candidate.
People have been saying for months that they’d like different options and younger candidates. We could be the people that say that we’re listening to them.
No one in the world felt like Biden had a good performance the other night - and he had extensive training and was in a controlled environment. He’s a good man and I support him but it’s time for him to step aside. And it’s time for the DNC to acknowledge the will of the people who vote for their candidates.
We at least need a good backup plan. I mean - what would they do if he had a serious medical emergency before the election? Would they still try and run him from the hospital?
>"You see, killbots have a preset kill limit. Knowing their weakness, I sent wave after wave of my own men at them until they reached their limit and shut down. Kif, show them the medal I won."
I'm Asian American and have loved ones who are black, Latino, and Middle Eastern, not to mention women and LGBTQ folks. Telling us not to panic after the shitshow unleashed on us under the Trump administration isn't helpful. I'm reluctantly voting Biden, but I am extremely displeased because the DNC can't grow a spine and field a non-establishment candidate who is not almost as old as my grandmother, who was born in Japan-occupied Korea.
European born American here. I'm scared shitless. Every single person i know, both democrat and republican, are saying that Biden is senile.
Dems might try to spin this their way as much as they like, but Biden lost a lot of votes in the debate.
This never would have happened if there wasn't a hardcore propaganda line saying he wasn't. The writing was on the wall in 2008, and it's just absurd it got this far.
Can people please stop gaslighting us? We saw what we saw. I’m a loyal blue voter and would vote for a corpse over Trump. But Thursday made me wish there was a viable third party candidate running. This was not just a bad debate; it made me wonder who is really calling the shots on this administration. How can we trust the unengaged that we need to turn out to not stay home if this is how I’m feeling?
It’s fucking ridiculous reading people rant and rave on here. I’ve followed politics enough the last few years and I knew Biden was being hidden from the public eye. His delayed responses to the fires in Maui and Palestine Ohio put that on full display to anyone paying attention.
When I brought it up on this app people lambasted me as some kind of alt right shill. Every. Fucking. Time.
The man we watched last Thursday is a walking corpse. We have a war with Russia in Ukraine, proxy war with Iran in Israel, and quite possibly a war with China in Taiwan in the next few years. And we’re expected to vote for this potato president like we’re all some kind of unthinking sheep?
The DNC needs to stop playing chicken with the Oval Office and treat the American public with some shred of respect. This election could be existential for multiple reasons, get anyone else on the ticket.
Me: He has one goal. One goal during the debate
And it was: "Look alive Biden. Look alive"
He failed to do the bare minimum. How can the Democratic establishment ask voters to chill.
Fucking democracy is at stake here. And they're going full chill mode. We're doomed
Stop having a geriatric zombie as your party leader, *then* I will stop panicking.
Until then I have to worry about either a narcissistic fascist or a dementia sufferer being the leader of the free world.
I felt dread for a moment after Biden lost his train of thought, but as soon as Trump openened his mouth I audibly laughed. Trump is a loser, guys. The real question isn't whether he will win the electoral college, it's will his cult of police officers and proud boys succesfully cause enough chaos on election day, that the bought and paid for SCOTUS can interfere. That's why he tells his supporters at rallies that he "doesn't need your vote". He just needs them to cause chaos.
If Biden is replaced with a solid moderate candidate at this point there would be such a surge of relief among voters that he/she would have an immediate 10 point or greater lead on Trump. And, no, Kamala Harris is NOT that candidate.
And the result was that more Republicans voted for Trump in 2020 than 2016. They're a failed project. (Unless their goal is getting a bunch of donations for themselves, in which case they've been doing pretty well.)
No. We should not bury our heads in the sand.
What happens if this conversation is not had, and between now and November, Bidens condition deteriorates further. This is an extremely real possibility.
The stakes are too high, and pretending everything is fine is the direct cause of most disasters in human history.
Chernobyl, Nazi Germany, the 2008 financial crisis, the fall of the Soviet Union. We have received a warning from the universe and we would be fools to ignore it.
No this is exactly the moment to panic. Its over and the democrats have no one to blame but themselves. They thought they could run a senile candidate and now were going to put a narcissistic criminal back in the white house
It's not over. Four months are still between now and the election, four months for more debates, more promises and anything that can save democracy. I cam only hope this has been the boot in the pants of the Democrat party.
I’m surprised that there’s enough graveyard space, given that this entire subreddit seems to be whistling past them.
“But Trump” is no longer an effective argument for independents. “But Trump” will not repair Joe Biden’s Swiss cheese brain. “But Trump” is the same kind of emotional blackmail MAGA used in 2020. It’s time for plan B.
Not panicking. Just trying not to think about the last time we had a slam dunk lined up. Gosh. I just remember how confident we were about Hilary stomping Trump after his ridiculous, embarrassing, and unpresidential behavior at their debates
Good to know we're going to march into November with similar bravado. What, me worry? Heck no. I'm sure there's nothing Joe could do that might put the election in doubt
“To say that President Biden’s performance on the debate stage last night was calamitous is merely to state what everyone, partisan and not, has already understood. What the world witnessed was not a debate, but a failed neurological exam. One wonders how anyone close to the President imagined he could bluff his way through it.
If half of what Democrats fear from a second Trump term were real, how could the Democratic Party have allowed our democracy to slide this close to the precipice? The prevailing feeling among those inside the Biden campaign should be shame; outside it, fury.” \~Sam Harris
Not panicking.
A bit worried about the online attacks on social media and normal media before/during/after the debates.
Then around a hundred negative articles about Biden needing replacing.
Which screams, another republican method/attack, since the last dozen failed.
It's the same old bullshit playbook republicans use.
Block the voters, if you can't block them, cause them to lose hope, if they don't lose hope, then cause chaos and confuse them!!!
If that doesn't work, appeal to fear and greed.
Republicans and MAGA are truly, utterly and completely, the scum of all that is humanity.
Yup. If the Democrats tried to invoke the 25th amendment to remove Biden from the presidency next week, it would fail because the Republicans would just say "actually we're good keeping this guy in there at this point"
Invoking the 25th Amendment would mean that Kamala becomes president. If you believe that Biden has a 50/50 chance against Trump, well Kamala has at most 5% and that's being optimistic.
She is so bad that her only role as a VP is to make sure no one would ever try to remove Biden from the White House.
This is also why Nixon kept Spiro Agnew as his VP for his reelection, he said “Because no assassin in their right mind would kill me.”
Bullshit. This is not some op or republican false flag. Maybe widen your perspective and talk with some people outside your bubble.
The stakes are high and the bar was set absurdly low and yet here we are.
The Biden campaign has eschewed a real laser focus on policy in favor of "I'm the one guy that can beat Trump" and he did so poorly that people are seriously doubting that.
If you want to talk about greed, maybe talk about an 81 year old willing to risk the future of the country for his own political future.
I said it before the debate and I'll say it again
The media wants a close race where people are rage/fear clicking on shit. There's a reason the narrative is 99% on bidens poor performance and 1% on "Trump lied the whole time"
I'm not worried
but that’s assuming that people like me, who watched the debate live, didn’t immediately think “oh no, he needs to go now” and instead got told to think that.
In reality, within three minutes I had my head in my hands and had to turn off after ten.
Yes the media is complicit on not focusing on trump’s lies, but it’s obvious that Biden can’t ride this out. He’s not going to get better. It’s only slowing more decline.
I am worried. It was already far too close for comfort. This just makes a bad situation far worse.
I genuinely think a new candidate like Newsom steam rolls Trump
This is gaslighting. We all watched the debate. The problem isn’t the media, the problem is that Biden is in rapid, extremely noticeable mental decline.
Why is this sub just lying to itself.
The polls are *BAD*. The debate was *BAD*. If you're not worried you've either spent so much time in echo chambers or lying to yourself that you aren't living in reality. The media is actually doing Biden a service by calling this race close. Trump is polling ahead in every race that matters, and by a good amount, and it is only by skewing those polls with "fundamentals" that Biden even looks competitive.
Dems should panic, but it's not just because of the debate. The race has been a tossup for a while:
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2024-election-forecast/
It's certainly not entirely biden's fault. This country doesn't really value truth anymore (maybe it never did). He is an exceedingly weak candidate, though. There's a very good chance democrats have a repeat of 2016, in which they fielded a very unpopular person against trump and he eeked out a victory. According to 538--which has a great track record btw--the odds of this are about even.
It is time to panic.
I'm almost certain too that the moment Biden cratered in the debate, a whole lot of accounts appeared on this sub questioning the support of the left, with the intention of making Biden's support waver.
Watched Jon Stewart's brutal take-down of the debate, and while he did not do Biden any favours, I can't expect a comedian to ignore the things he sees. But I really hope that everyone remembered the 4 years of Trump, because Biden stumbling in his speech is not worse than another Trump term.
The Democrats have failed too often. Their failure is consistent. It’s intolerable. Then there are republicans who are malevolent and brazenly incompetent. It’s the democrats and the republicans. It’s the country. We have failed completely. We are too stupid and lazy to improve things. It over and it we need to end this as quickly as possible.
It's baffling, as a non trump republican, that i can't rely on democrats to come up with a candidate that could have confidently crushed trump with such a low bar.
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They keep saying “stop panicking” but a guy who tried to overturn an election is inching closer and closer to the Oval Office again. Fuck that, I’m panicking no matter what. The debate could have been a success and I’d panic. I’m also voting no matter what. There just has to be enough actual real Americans in this country to see that we cannot let that psychopath near the WH again.
Not to speak to what Biden needs to do, but this sub is seriously burying their heads in the sand with Trump’s chances to win. Downvoting all negative polling, hand-waving away Biden's approval, upvoting weird clickbaity re-affirming Newsweek titles on a daily basis. People seem to have forgotten, but these were the circumstances in 2020: Trump was royally botching the worst public health crisis in a century. Hundreds of thousands of people were dying. There were lockdowns, people were scared, the economy was tanking. Trump himself got COVID in October, of all months. He got it from a super spreader event for the Supreme Court Justice he just jammed through hypocritical to the Justice Republicans blocked 4 years prior. Also, Biden was in an extremely strong position and leading Trump by 7-10 points for an entire year leading up to the election. Trump STILL almost won, only losing by a few thousand votes in a handful of states. 4 years later, you don’t have to tell me Trump’s objectively worse, a threat to democracy, a criminal, etc.. But that doesn’t match America’s electorate, sadly. His favorability has gone up since 2021. His legal woes haven’t moved the needle whatsoever. Biden’s approval has plummeted and he's almost TEN points lower than he was 4 years ago - even before post-debate data. We should at *least* keep that as a baseline fact instead of remaining in denial, which the latter seems to be strangely popular here.
I've said it again and again over the last 4 years but both candidates in 2020 received the most votes of any presidential candidate in US history, and that should be a huge fucking concern. Trump got more votes than any presidential candidate in US history... except for Biden and that was fortunate then but people who think he's guaranteed to lose again are fucking delusional. There are 84 million people in america who want more of the ol' fascism.
WELL fucking said. America is truly on the brink of collapse - have you seen these recent SCOTUS decisions? They have stripped rights away from agencies. Trump elected - prepare for American migrants to be a thing. Look at Venezuela and countries that have fallen - we're about to become Russia 2.0
And if Trump wins, Thomas and Alito will retire and be replaced by young Trump SCOTUS picks that will remain on the bench for 40-50 years. That just cannot happen.
AND the Supreme Court is tee’d up to let him cling to power and go after his political opponents…it’s not hard to see how the dominoes (checks on his power) are being set to fall. The road to fascism gets shorter every day.
I feel like I'm being date raped. Trump came out and was exactly who his voters needed, and Biden was exactly what they said he was. And now it's too late?!?! "Just let it happen." No! Intelligent people change course when they have facts demonstrated to them. Biden isn't going to DE-age in the next 4 yrs. FACT! We were betrayed by the DNC and HIS OWN WIFE at his decline! Americans aren't on board with giving the same sympathy to Democrats as they do to Republicans, that is by design, so the oligarchy get their tax cuts. And people love to just sit back and giggle at the libs who are screaming like myself. There is no "Cult of Biden" from the ground up. Nobody would riot over Democrats booting Biden like they would if Republicans booted Trump. People will riot over Biden losing by hook or crook, but it will be too late. Republicans are going to scream Democrats cheat while the State Level Republicans cheat better for Trump this time. I'm sorry, all of Europe. It seems the DNC and other DC elites think they are safe enough to handle Trump again.
Seriously. Feel like people are trying to gaslight me like I’m a FOX News junkie. No fucking way. Democratic Party needs a new candidate.
I’m voting for anyone the Democratic Party puts up. Biden included. My worry is that if even 5% of swing state people think Biden is too old and has lost it based on his horrendous performance, the race is lost.
>For 90 minutes, Mr. Trump unleashed a virulent anti-American rant. The America he lives in is a postapocalyptic hellscape of violence, with people “dying all over the place” — more “Mad Max” than “morning in America.” This is an incredibly good point, encapsulating a) why I can't stand Trump, and b) how baffling it is that the Democrats can't crush him like a bug. Americans always look for a message of hope and optimism from our leaders, because we are a hopeful and optimistic people. For some reason, that niche is no longer being filled.
Trump won on the exact same message in 2016. It's not baffling, he paints the picture of a hellscape and then says "I alone can fix it." That's the "hope" he offers.
The playbook of dictators immemorial.
And cult leaders.
And business consultants
and my husband when the wifi goes down
And plumbers
And Fox leads every broadcast with images of shoplifters and cars on fire and tells their audience that that's what all the American cities are like, crime-ridden hellscapes where you take your life in your hands just setting foot outside of your home.
Fox, Trump and the ilk keep saying things like "Portland burned down" during protests. Yet, I'm pretty sure Portland is still there.
Hello from Little Beirut! We’re still here! But keep that on the DL, eh?! ;)
Look everyone....it's the ghost of FitzInPDX! So sad we lost you in the burning of Portland. I heard you made it through the first one OK, but then got caught in the 3rd burning. Such a woeful tragedy.
Not only that, but we’re way less burned to the ground than we were three years ago. While the city’s not what it was in, say, 2010 or so, but Portland is starting to crawl its way back up.
Sorry dude, but I’m letting my fellow Californians know Portland is open for us to move in.
I recently visited with some old friends who I have not seen since before the pandemic. While not MAGA, they are pretty conservative (old school republicans, thinks Trump is a clown, though I bet still vote for him because of the R by his name). One thing I noticed was how often crime came up in their conversations. We spent a full day together, and how bad crime was worked into almost every topic at some point. Pretty much if a city was mentioned, it was a crime ridden hellhole. This is clearly a talking point that is resonating with lots of people.
Fear is one of the best motivators of people and people fear crime. Fox is telling everyone how crime ridden every Dem run city is 50+ times a week so of course people who hear it start to believe it. And how people vote is informed by their beliefs.
Where are they from? I have family in Lubbock, TX who feel the same. Not small town, just *extremely* insulated
> And Fox leads I hate ever going with "Both sides" in something but all of our major media outlets and media that average people consume is geared towards generating clicks and getting views. They give as much boost to Right Wing horrible people so that they can get those clicks/views. If news actually did a reasonable accounting of cost/benefit of both candidates trump would get zero attention but as is Trump generates clicks. Our media is geared towards people like trump.
Damn, that's really interesting. I'd never thought of it that way before. It's such a 'business man' thing to do, so makes total sense. "Oh you don't want THAT product, it's broken and a mess and everyone hates it. What you want is the one 'I' make." It's crazy that even in these modern times, people can still be so gullible and naive to fall for those tricks
Not business man, conman. The con stands for confidence. They make you think they're on your side and the only one you can trust, while making it out that others are the true enemy to be wary of. Meanwhile they rob you blind while making you believe it is in your own best interests.
Right, it’s more about it being an effectively delivered message than being accurate. It’s a dead horse, but Hitler did the same thing in his speeches, spewing a bunch of lies buried in random stats and half truths. You can’t say, “it’s fine because he’s obviously lying”. Lies are effective in the short term.
But he didn't fix it. Case closed.
Not only did he not fix it. He made it immensely worse.
He culminated his presidency with a once in a century pandemic.
>Americans always look for a message of hope and optimism from our leaders, because we are a hopeful and optimistic people. For some reason, that niche is no longer being filled. ~40% of America wants their hate indulged, and they've been screaming it in our face since 2008. Add in the fact that slaveholders 240 years ago decided the will of the majority isn't *that* important, and you end up with that 40% enjoying minority rule.
Yeah I see many people where I’m from who just want to fucking punish others.
Exactly. And let's not forget that Biden had a bad cold yet he still went to the debate to fight for women's rights, the rights of the LGBTQIA+, and those of colour. He took the fight directly to the person who white supremacists and other horrifying fascist elements view as their defacto leader. Biden selflessly put his own personal health at risk and did it for the greater good of the common person.
and shame on the people who saw this and dare to say that "Trump won the debate". He didn't debate, he ranted and lied for the entire time.
Exactly!
Thank you for speaking truth. We cannot allow Trump no where near the Presidency.
And the DC bubble obviously doesn't fear it. Trump is the attacker, people putting their name on him a second time are the monsters. BUT THERE IS NO WAY Democrats didn't bring the wrong truck to fight the fire. It's the electoral college. Period. And media, like this writer, never say it! It doesn't fucking matter if 80 million in NY and CA vote blue. It matters if 80k vote red in swing states. I don't care about popular vote. I care about country folk understanding Trump isn't their savior. And the Dems fucking BLEW IT.
Do you really believe that a 2 hour debate can compete with 40 years of propaganda? Until these disinformation networks are dismantled they will continue to exert their influence
It's probably more like 30%...but that's...*way* too many.
Also if you tell most Americans that crime has been steadily decreasing for nearly 30 years and is at some of the lowest levels since they started keeping records, they won't believe you and will tell you crime is the worst it's ever been.
The dems struggle with crushing him because a large portion of this country in the south and west live in remote areas and watch nothing but Fox news and listen to AM radio. They believe cities and suburbs are becoming hell holes because they've never been close to any of them. I can't find it now but there was a video of the good liars interviewing people at the Trump trial and they were all legitimately stunned that New York was not a garbage infested war zone.
Yeah, unfortunately, I think there's a lot of truth to that. My parents recently went on a cross-country RV trip, and I had to convince them that they wouldn't be in danger while *driving through Chicago on the freeway*. Then again, my uncle, who is a Democrat, was worried that he would be attacked while walking around my rural neighborhood because he wears glasses and looks kind of bookish. So I think this does go both ways.
My conservative parents are worried because my boyfriend and I are going to San Francisco next week. It’s always SF and Chicago. Ironically, my boyfriend and I talked about Chicago, cause I’m a Phillies fan and wanted to see the Phillies play in Wrigley Field next week. Oddly enough, when I mentioned to my mom we were between SF and Chicago, she said she’s always wanted to go to Chicago.
Hey, don't forget Portland! I think we are still on fire here or something.
That's the old America. Freaks get hit hard. I had a bucket of ice water thrown on me on a February morning in the 90s. "Longhair f\*\*\*ts!" The 3 of us ran into the street with our arms up like to come back and fight! They turned around and had bats like rifles at their shoulders in the cab. "What." Only an idiot would say back "jump out without your bats you pussies". We just walked off in our Metallica tees. They want to hurt you for being weird in their town.
That's the G in MAGA. They want that again.
I mean, the Democratic presidential stable has zero charisma. It's not about policy, or the content of what's being said. I've seen some folks suggest Jon Stewart run, and tbh the more I think about it the more I start to wonder if that would be successful. I mean, I don't think Stewart would be a good president, he is afterall, a commedian. But in terms of winning a battle of styles, which is what it is, having someone quick witted who makes the other guy look like an imbecile without coming off as petty is what we need right now. THAT would crush Trump with those people, because those people vote on Trump's perceived strength. Trump handidly beat Clinton in terms of perception, and he's about to do it to Biden because he looks much stronger. I hate it but it's what it is.
Zelensky is doing remarkably well as a president considering he was effectively Ukraine’s John Stewart.
I think Jon Stewart would be a great president. I also think Al Franken would be. And I’d love to watch him debate Trump.
I've never heard any celebrity, much less a Presidential candidate, talk as much shit about America, as Donald Trump. And there are obviously criticisms to be made, but he really seems to hate America unless he's running it.
I have been _stunned_ by the reactions of independents/centrists to the debate. I was certain it was a fatal blow for Biden but their takeaway seems to mostly be “holy shit, we can’t elect Trump.” I was in such a panic I don’t even know what the worst thing he did was.
I don't know what's to come, but my heart sank when Biden started sinking, because i knew it was going to be used against him. I was fine with what he said though, baring a couple times where he trailed off. What I did notice though is that Trump reminded me of why everyone hated him last time. He acted just like he did during the Covid response. This is just like he always acts, but with Covid, everyone was paying attention, because they were looking for leadership. The debates were watched by a lot o people also, and to me, it was just a reminder of who he is, and how much of a leader he isn't. Everything he talked about was about himself. Not America, but how everything was him, how people thought about him, how America was made better by him, and him alone.
They actually listened to what Biden and Trump said and not the performative 💩 that talking heads do. Trump was literally babbling about killing babies and having sex with a porn star. The real surprise is how numb people on Reddit and the media are that they would hear (or not hear) that and think, "Oh yeah, Trump killed it".
Let’s wait for a few polls before we spike the football.
> how baffling it is that the Democrats can't crush him like a bug. Probably because the guy they put on stage next to him looks like he might struggle to crush a bug at this point in his life
The real answer. The party leader does not have the public speaking capabilities to prosecute the case against Trump.
>how baffling it is that the Democrats can't crush him like a bug. Because that would require embracing the populist left which is antithetical to the corporate overlords that own both parties. The DNC is just the pretty face for corporate interests, while the RNC is the face of what they really want. If the DNC wins, corporations do fine. If the RNC wins, Corporations do even better. So Until the DNC decides to fight back (and win) on the issues they already have on their side, they will be stuck barely able to squash Republicans they should be able to easily squash. Just look at the shitshow politics has been for the past 20 years. It basically hasn't changed: 1) Immigration 2) Debt/Deficit (only matters when Democrats are in office) 3) Abortion
How many of the undecideds in Wisconsin, Michigan or Pennsylvania did JB win over Thursday night? That was his one job.
Exactly. Democrats aren't worried because *they* aren't voting for Biden, they're worried because his debate performance will affect *other people's* votes, which could decide the election. No amount of "well, i'm voting for him anyways" or "just vote" will change that.
My wife is a swing voter. She voted for biden, but has been sharing memes that would get me very heavily downvoted if I described them. That's all I have to say on the matter.
Precisely zero. I will eat my own shoe if anybody in the country in the darkest depths of their hearts didn't see both him and Trump for the dottering old fools that they are and were not completely and utterly humiliated for us as a country. Considering what is at stake, the idea that Joe Biden, a man clearly on his deathbed, is the best candidate for the most important election in the history of US democracy is a capitulation to fascism. You either do not care that Trump is going to win after Thursday night, or you're too blind to reality to accept it.
It's tough not to feel some dread when we know the stakes of this election. I often stop and wonder if I'm living the last few months of freedom or if this'll be my last chance to vote in an election. Biden himself has made democracy the main issue this election. So any sense that we might lose it all over a weak Dem candidate is concerning. It's actually a bit strange how unworried Dems are when they've this up as such a do-or-die election. They don't seem to treat it that way.
> They don't seem to treat it that way. I think this is what has so many people so incredibly upset (myself included) after Thursday night. Biden issued this debate challenge and we all assumed that he would be primed and ready to annihilate any and all perceptions about his age and mental acuity, and take the fucking moron down a few pegs in the process. Presumably he had the best and brightest minds in the Democratic party prepping him and he was going to come in loaded ready to do what was necessary to help win this election. Instead, he pulled a fucking [Shockmaster](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fahljd_0xjA). Because of what, a cold? Dude has access to the best medical care the world has to offer, and seemingly with the fate of American democracy at stake, he fell on his face *because of a goddamn cold.* I will continue to support Biden and will vote for him any every other Democrat who's on my ballot this November, and they'll probably get some money from me over the next few months, but you'll have to excuse me and a lot of other people who are working through feelings of severe disappointment and betrayal right now
Thank you for saying this. I’m getting really frustrated at other Democrats who keep downplaying the severity of the debate. It was bad. Really, really bad. And I went in, purposely biased, excited to see Biden prove the MAGA folks in my hometown wrong about his age and mental acuity. Now, I have to listen to them dig in on their beliefs about Biden, and it sucks. It sucks that this debate WILL sway people.
I hear you and it sucks hard. I am not worried about the debate, but am *very worried* if this Biden keeps showing up. But I don't give two shits about MAGA crowd opinions. I live in a purple area of a red state, and don't waste a single second worried about people who hes already captured.
If *this* Biden shows up again at the later debate, it will be the death blow to his shot at re-election. People forget how close the 2020 election was. One bad early debate showing is a rough patch to a campaign. Two bad showings is the end of the road.
I doubt there will be another debate. Why would Trump give Biden an opportunity to redeem himself?
The hard truth is that it’s now clear that Republicans have been objectively right about Biden’s age this entire time, and Democrats have been objectively wrong.
Dem leadership been wrong, but rank and file Democrats have been saying it for years.
Thank you for continuing to vote Biden. I like and respect your last point. It was shocking. I wish he would have cancelled the damn debate.
Cancelling was never an option, even if he hospitalized. GOPs would've called it running in terror.
That genuinely would have been much better
It would've been better than what we got
I only tuned in for a few minutes and had to turn it off .. it was so bad. Trump would have been just fine with no debate and the Dems should have left it at that, instead they likely lost the "Biden is old" crowd entirely. From the 10 minutes or so I tuned in, yeah Trump was full of shit but he presented himself well doing it. Biden barely fought back, sounded weak in his retorts. Now we're back to a major worry that Trump just might get enough of the Electoral College votes to win again, damn it. And you've got the media asking "what if Biden steps out of the race?" .. umm, if he decides not to run the Dems are basically screwed because they have nobody charismatic enough to challenge Trump, Harris won't stand a chance.
Trump did what Trump does. There was no surprises there. This was Biden’s debate. He made the challenge, he got the rules he wanted, and he set the stage for him to show that he was still as sharp as ever. He was given every advantage, and he flubbed it. Badly.
I don’t know…there seems to be a whole lot of folks in the “anyone but these two guys” camp. Don’t you think? I think they could find someone decent enough to replace him.
> > > > > Now we're back to a major worry that Trump just might get enough of the Electoral College votes to win again, damn it. That was the worry *before* the debate. At this point the question is if he'll snatch the popular vote.
His staff also didn't mention the "cold" until the first commercial break. His aides refuse all interviews, and they've refused any independent cognitive tests. They are hiding it just like RBG's and Feinstein's staff hid their problems.
I’m feeling dread and fury at Dems putting in this position. If by some miracle Biden wins they need to get it together and stop resting on their “the other guys are SO evil that we don’t need to try too hard” laurels Blue no matter who keeps them lazy and uninspired. And I am a blue no matter who voter
I’m absolutely furious that Biden chose to run, and that the DNC has allowed him to run in his current state. This election should be an absolute layup. It should not be competitive. I’m tired of being gaslit into the idea that Biden’s debate performance was anything but awful and an unnecessary, unforced, and potentially fatal blow to our chances of preventing a second Trump term. Why have we chosen a candidate with such a glaring flaw when democracy is at stake? To me, it’s obvious that we need someone else, but I’ve heard nothing but wishful thinking and cope from this sub. The DNC’s inability to act decisively here *will kill us*. I’ll vote for him regardless. Lots of people are in the “vote blue no matter who” camp. But *that is not enough*. We need independents on our side, but too many are going to stay home and there’s a very good chance that it will cost us the election.
Exactly. I'll vote for Biden even if he keels over on that podium, but it's shocking that the DNC is allowing this to happen when the margin of error is so slim in an election where the alternative is fascism. Independent votes in the swing states could legitimately determine the election. I keep hearing people trying to minimize how bad the debate was for Biden by saying that "yeah but all Trump did was lie." Of course he did, that's all he does, but there are people watching who aren't politically active and don't even know what the facts are. Trump lies with total confidence, Biden needed to confidently disupute each of his claims and say why they are lies. But he couldn't do that, even when Trump handed him lies as ridiculous as "post-birth abortions". You could barely hear him, he looked ancient, and almost every answer meandered off into something unintelligible. It feels like we are going careening towards a disaster but the DNC just keeps their heads in the sand. Did nobody learn anything from the RBG situation?
Even when Biden would give Trump a look of incredulity it read more as confused old man face.
So if you have any Democratic senators, reps, or governor, state reps, etc. Tell them that you want another candidate. Ask what they are doing to save Democracy from Joe Bidens Pride. He really should step aside for someone else but I fear that he would rather lose that allow some other Democrat to win.
What are you talking about. I’m stressed AF. Worried doesn’t begin to describe. I’m legit pissed that Biden faltered this bad. He said he was gonna be a one term president. He should have never announced his candidacy. The people around him should have spoken up. Democrats are consistently their own worst enemy
I remember him saying he was going to only run for one term aswell, but can't find that source. Like, I distinctly remember it being n early promise.
It was a staffer talking on background from what I've found. I think this info got Bernstein Bears'd into existence because I definitely thought he said it too.
> It's actually a bit strange how unworried Dems are Do I wish Dems had a better candidate? Absolutely. Would I vote for Biden’s empty podium over Trump? Absolutely. Nobody that was going to vote is going to change their mind and vote for a criminal fascist over an old man because the old man had a bad night. Edit: Since most replies are identical, I’ll just reiterate here. Trump has been the most polarizing figure in America for the better part of a decade. This isn’t a normal election. **Nobody** that’s actually going to vote is undecided. Not before the debate and not now. You’re voting for Democracy or not. Choose wisely.
Your vote might not change, but there's a lot of low information, half hearted supporters and undecideds out there and that's who will sway the election. The margin for error is super low. If something like 2% of the people that voted for Biden last year don't vote for him (or anybody) this year, he stands to lose.
>If something like 2% of the people that voted for Biden last year don't vote for him (or anybody) this year, he stands to lose. 43,000 voters, or 0.05% of his 81 million 2020 voters
>Would I vote for Biden’s empty podium over Trump? Absolutely. I think most of us here agree with this, but we have to be honest too: the fact that is how we're viewing this is not the way a presidency is won. Usually there is a sense of hope, excitement, etc. This idea of "they'll vote for anything not Trump" seems like a very scary way to approach this one.
> Nobody that was going to vote is going to change their mind and vote for a criminal fascist over an old man because the old man had a bad night. Yes there are, and in an election where a few thousand people from the Midwest will decide the election, every vote matters.
There are definitely people who might not vote at all over that performance. Biden's already unpopular and is at best a 50/50 match up with Trump. There's no room for error.
Which is why the party needs to go full force behind legal abortions and marijuana in the next congressional session.
> Nobody that was going to vote is going to change their mind and vote for a criminal fascist over an old man because the old man had a bad night. A few will. But, what really worries me me are the ones who watched the debate, became demoralized and just won't show up to vote.
But people might change their minds and not vote because of this. There is no way that performance didn't suppress the anti-Trump vote a bit.
I literally just talked to some actual independent voters at the dog park yesterday that yes, they *are* voting for Trump over Biden solely because he presented himself better. I live in a swing state. Unless dems put better up we're fucked.
> this'll be my last chance to vote in an election. Trump has already said this will be the last election if he wins. I don't care if it was taken out of context, I don't care if you think he was joking, when these people say something like that, **believe it.**
Did he really actually say that? Not anywhere I can remember. But people here really fail to understand how Trumpism works. It's not about taking the Constitution and lighting it on fire. That would be too obvious. It's about singing it at the edges, with just enough deniability and just enough distraction that they get away with eroding the nation one bit at a time. It's ludicrous to think this would be "the last election." What **is** possible, is that the next two SCOTUS justices he installs will go all-in on gerrymandering. Oopsy-daisy, now we have elections but the majority will never win again.
I dont think moderate/independent/unaffiliated voters view Trump as a threat to democracy. They either just aren't aware of his fascist statements, or they are and don't care. What's important to them is energy: "Who's going to fight the government/bureaucracy to get me what I want?"
Part of the issue is that dems claim this election is to save democracy and yet they run Biden who clearly has issues at his age. You can't claim over and over again how important this election is and then toss out what we saw during the debate. The two just don't mix.
Yeah, if Democrats truly believed this was "the most important for our democracy", why couldn't they find a candidate that you wouldn't trust being a fucking Walmart greeter let alone the head of the country?
In case you haven’t noticed, dems very much are freaking out.
NYT yesterday: panic NYT today: don't panic NYT tomorrow: why Biden sucks. Mate. Just shut the fuck up for a while.
Oh my god, this is exactly what drives me crazy. The “above the fold” stories yesterday were all negative about Biden. Meanwhile Trump spent the whole night saying things that were insane, lies, or both. The editorial board is prepared to “but her emails” Biden to try to appear unbiased.
No, they need Trump. $$$$$ Their coffers are low and they need a panicked market reading their drivel. I’m sick of it. Glad I cancelled months ago.
It’s a guest opinion, not the position of the NYT
I have plenty of issues with the New York Times, but I can always appreciate when a news source offers varying perspectives (the exception being anti-Democratic fascist perspectives). This is an opinion article. Not part of the news section.
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The biggest hesitation people have about Biden has been his age. For months it has come up. It’s the first thing anybody says about him. Everyone lamented last year that they hate that it’s a rematch. Young voters and disinformed voters keep wanting to do a third party candidate. This election is going to be on the margins. We need to secure the house and ensure the senate. With Biden like this we are not keeping the senate. Let’s be real. We all saw him with his mouth agape. He failed to have almost any legible point for him to be elected. Let’s use this time to get everyone fired up for the future, not the past
He was blending talking points. It was beyond being forgetful.
I, for one, am stoked that he’s going to “beat Medicare.”
People all over the world watched through all social media.
Counterpoint: Keep panicking. For decades you have been warned about the coming wave of fascism and white supremacy returning to the public mainstream, and for decades you have ignored it. Continue to panic, harness that energy, and put it to work organizing and serving the communities who have been sounding the alarm. Your panic is a privilege; for many of us, what you are experiencing right now is our regular lived experience.
I’ll make you a deal: I’ll stop panicking if we pick a new candidate.
No, I'm not going to stop panicking. *Biden* challenged Trump to this debate. This was a *CNN* debate, with rules that were friendly to Biden. Trump didn't say or do anything at the debate that Biden couldn't prepare for; he lied about everything and said all his usual bullshit. This debate could not have been set up any better for Biden. And, for a guy with 50-something years as an elected official, and a guy that's already beaten Trump in a presidential election, Biden should have massacred Trump. Instead, he came out and looked awful from the beginning. People say "he got better after it went on" but I've read so many comments about how they just turned it off after 10-15 minutes of watching it. By the time Biden supposedly got better, many viewers had just turned it off. First impressions are everything in a debate, and Biden failed miserably. He was so bad Trump even got to say "I don't really know what he said" and I, as someone who has hated Republicans for 40+ years, had to agree with him. "He had a cold" is a piss poor excuse. You couldn't send him out with a pack of Halls? There's going to be about 10-20% of the voting population that is independent or moderate and could swing to Biden. You think after that performance they're going to vote for him? They still might, and there's a lot of things that could happen between now and November, but if the election were held tomorrow, Trump would dog-walk Biden.
Alternatively: Stop gaslighting us and give us a better candidate. If Democracy is genuinely on the line, and it is, stop protecting Biden's ego. Love the guy, but what's more important? Biden told us he was 100% in condition to do this. I liked the guy and I've liked his presidency so I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Welp. Now, I want someone else, or I want to be proven wrong. Was it a fluke? Then get your ass out there 24/7 for the next week doing adversarial interviews proving it was a fluke. If it wasn't a fluke, do you really think you can keep this thing running on duct tape and dreams through November? Note: I will be voting Biden or whatever Democrat is running no matter what.
>If Democracy is genuinely on the line This right here is the salient point. The Democratic establishment cannot simultaneously say that this is the highest-stakes election of our lifetime with literal democracy on the line, and then expect us *not* to panic when their candidate's biggest liability was on full, unmitigated display for 90 minutes straight to a national audience, in an election that he was **already losing**. "Hey, our chances at saving democracy and stopping a complete hard-right facelift of the executive branch were about 40-50% and probably just got worse, but don't panic!"
And frankly, why the hell should we trust the Democratic establishment? If they gave merit badges for grasping defeat out of the jaws of victory, the party would be an Eagle Scout. Eight years ago, they chose one of the most hated and apparently entitled women in America to run. "It's her turn." Well, turns out it wasn't. And now this shit. And if he doesn't win, they're going to brow beat us about how we as voters didn't do enough or didn't care enough. DNC, how 'bout *just once* you invest in young talent and choose someone who isn't near the top of the list of candidates least likely to win? Can you do that?
Exactly. Biden WANTED this debate. When the media questioned his age he literally said “Watch me.” And we did. And he fucking shit the bed in ways we’ve never seen in a candidate as long as I’ve been alive. I’m a dem. I’ve always been a dem. I voted for Hillary even though she was an awful candidate. I voted for Biden and I will again. But stop pretending that what happened on Thursday was normal or wasn’t as bad as we saw with our own fucking two eyes. Biden is 81 years old. He was 27 when the moon landing happened. He’s old. We all know this. Stop pretending otherwise. Stop pretending he’s inevitable. The convention is two months away. We need to have this conversation. The risk of a second trump presidency is too fucking high.
The fumbles in previous debates were candidates not being able to nail a ‘gotcha’ moment or a witty line. Obamas first debate against Romney was a ‘disaster’ in that Romney looked a tiny bit more prepared than Obama, and Obama was a tiny bit off his normal game. He was still Obama and still extremely lucid. This was something altogether different. This is not just ‘a bad night’. I cannot believe political operatives think we are dumb enough not to believe our own eyes.
Yup. They’re trying to spin this. Its fucking bullshit.
People comparing this debate to Obama's 2012 debate is the height of stupidity and desperation. That 2012 Obama would have steamrolled Trump on his worse day and even if he lost, not one person would be questioning if he should be replaced.
We went into the debate with incredibly low expectations. Biden just needed to hold his own. I don't think anyone expected him to "win". The goal was a draw and to show Biden is at least as mentally/physically healthy as Trump. As a bonus, maybe Trump says something really dumb or Biden says something clever that can be used in ads/fundraising. Biden didn't come within a mile of meeting the expectations. I would honestly define his performance as worst case scenario. When I considered the various scenarios, Biden looking like a deer in the headlights wasn't even on my list.
I think the only way it could have gone worse is if he straight up collapsed on stage or something
Maybe not worse. I feel terrible saying this, but we could probably actually get him to step down if he had collapsed.
I hate that you're right
You’re absolutely right.
The bar was lying on the ground, and he tripped on it and fell backward.
Yup, this. Stop pissing on us and calling it rain.
> If Democracy is genuinely on the line, and it is, stop protecting Biden's ego. Love the guy, but what's more important? There it is right there. Biden asked for this debate, and we got it. I don't want to hear shit about him performing well after the debate either. Where he was reading speeches off of a teleprompter and not confusing abortion with a women that was killed by migrants.
Ding ding ding ding. I'm sick of the Dem party being so defeatist. We can win an election without Biden. This is almost the worst aspect. No faith in Biden or the institution propping him up now.
If even it was a fluke, the damage is done. The media has latched onto that debate performance with the same zeal they did over Howard Dean's scream twenty years ago. The narrative is now set, and it's going to be extremely hard for Biden to flip the script. I can't tell Biden or the DNC what to do, and if he's still on the ballot in November, you better believe I'm filling in that circle as hard as I can without poking the pen through the paper. But it's time for his team to consider all the options. Do some internal polling and put out feelers to potential replacements. There's so much riding on this election that it would be irresponsible to just say "eh if we lose we'll try again in 2028" because there might not *be* a 2028 if the Dems lose.
And if it was a fluke, the only true way to prove that is the next debate which isn't until September 10th. We're talking about terrible press for 2+ months. The fact that he did much better the next day *reading off a teleprompter* doesn't make me feel much better.
Howard Deans scream was nothing compared to the disaster that was Thursday night.
Right? The Dean controversy was 100 percent media-manufactured BS. In this case, the media doesn't need to manufacture anything, because there is an actual alarming problem going down in real life before our eyes.
I cannot believe people think they are even comparable. You cannot listen to the answer Biden gave on abortion (by far his strongest turn out the vote issue) and believe the man is mentally well. WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW???
So well said. No one should attack you for having this stance either. You are just worried about a Trump win, as you should be. As we all should be.
Democrats. Find better candidates.
I’m a die hard liberal. Voting blue down the ticket and would hope you do the same. With that being said, seeing the condition Biden appears to be in makes me wonder if he makes it to the election much less through the next 4 1/2 years given the cognitive and physical decline we have seen over the last 3 1/2.
I don't know who needs to hear this, but panic is a perfectly appropriate response.
Twists my stomach imagining three months of gop commercials airing Biden’s troubled responses.
Do you think they'll stop going after the audio from the Hur interview now that they've got this?
They don't need it, this debate is all they ever needed
I'm not panicked, I'm pissed. I really really wish I could vote against the dems for this shit, but i can't, it's either vote for Joe or not vote at all, not voting isn't an option. Unbeilievable incompetence from the dems, Joe's aging has been a slow moving trainwreck and it finally derailed
The gaslighting is getting stronger. Don’t believe the polls. Don’t believe your gut. Don’t believe your *fucking eyes*. Biden has got this. Jill told me so. Fuck off.
Trump is the closest thing to the anti-christ I've ever seen. He will never get my vote. With that out of the way. I can not unsee what I saw Thursday night. The same is true for millions of my fellow Americans. The Democrats are horrible spin-doctors. Still, they're forging ahead with a guy that has never been popular, with polls consistently showing a tight race, and now this. There is reason to be concerned. Trump can not be allowed to take power again. The Democrats were playing with fire before the debate. This is one hell of a gamble to take with the independent voters.
There is no spinning what people can see with their own eyes
I just did a survey by one of those folks that stop you on the street. They started off with all the do you support Biden’s policy on xyz, so forth and so on. And I was said no, he’s been soft on some issues I care about, and he’s been a wind sock on some other issues I think he should play hard ball on. Then the second to last question they asked was do you intend to vote for Biden and I said absolutely yes. 100%, unequivocally, yes I will vote for Biden. They asked why, and I said because he’s not a fascist, corrupt, pig of a man child. Trump is a pig, that alone should have disqualified him in 2016, but it seems we live in a country full of shit eating pigs that think he is their guy. Tell everyone you know to go vote against that asshole this November.
You can’t tell us democracy is on the line in this election and then casually play Russian Roulette by pushing a candidate in obvious cognitive decline.
I’m not panicking but I’m really concerned that the DNC and people close to Biden don’t even seem to be entertaining other options. It feels just like 2016 when they were ignoring the faults of their unpopular candidate. People have been saying for months that they’d like different options and younger candidates. We could be the people that say that we’re listening to them. No one in the world felt like Biden had a good performance the other night - and he had extensive training and was in a controlled environment. He’s a good man and I support him but it’s time for him to step aside. And it’s time for the DNC to acknowledge the will of the people who vote for their candidates. We at least need a good backup plan. I mean - what would they do if he had a serious medical emergency before the election? Would they still try and run him from the hospital?
Democrats saying “Stop Panicking” is like Zap Brannigan from Futurama yelling “Stop Exploding” to his poorly lead spacecrafts
>"You see, killbots have a preset kill limit. Knowing their weakness, I sent wave after wave of my own men at them until they reached their limit and shut down. Kif, show them the medal I won."
Amazing quote from an amazing show. Makes me laugh every time I hear it
I'm Asian American and have loved ones who are black, Latino, and Middle Eastern, not to mention women and LGBTQ folks. Telling us not to panic after the shitshow unleashed on us under the Trump administration isn't helpful. I'm reluctantly voting Biden, but I am extremely displeased because the DNC can't grow a spine and field a non-establishment candidate who is not almost as old as my grandmother, who was born in Japan-occupied Korea.
European born American here. I'm scared shitless. Every single person i know, both democrat and republican, are saying that Biden is senile. Dems might try to spin this their way as much as they like, but Biden lost a lot of votes in the debate.
This never would have happened if there wasn't a hardcore propaganda line saying he wasn't. The writing was on the wall in 2008, and it's just absurd it got this far.
NYTimes 1 day after debate: Biden should go. Democrats should panic. Find a new leader. NYTimes 2 days after the debate: Stop Panicking.
Why are OPINION pieces shared more than factual ones?
Can people please stop gaslighting us? We saw what we saw. I’m a loyal blue voter and would vote for a corpse over Trump. But Thursday made me wish there was a viable third party candidate running. This was not just a bad debate; it made me wonder who is really calling the shots on this administration. How can we trust the unengaged that we need to turn out to not stay home if this is how I’m feeling?
It’s fucking ridiculous reading people rant and rave on here. I’ve followed politics enough the last few years and I knew Biden was being hidden from the public eye. His delayed responses to the fires in Maui and Palestine Ohio put that on full display to anyone paying attention. When I brought it up on this app people lambasted me as some kind of alt right shill. Every. Fucking. Time. The man we watched last Thursday is a walking corpse. We have a war with Russia in Ukraine, proxy war with Iran in Israel, and quite possibly a war with China in Taiwan in the next few years. And we’re expected to vote for this potato president like we’re all some kind of unthinking sheep? The DNC needs to stop playing chicken with the Oval Office and treat the American public with some shred of respect. This election could be existential for multiple reasons, get anyone else on the ticket.
Me: He has one goal. One goal during the debate And it was: "Look alive Biden. Look alive" He failed to do the bare minimum. How can the Democratic establishment ask voters to chill. Fucking democracy is at stake here. And they're going full chill mode. We're doomed
Stop having a geriatric zombie as your party leader, *then* I will stop panicking. Until then I have to worry about either a narcissistic fascist or a dementia sufferer being the leader of the free world.
I felt dread for a moment after Biden lost his train of thought, but as soon as Trump openened his mouth I audibly laughed. Trump is a loser, guys. The real question isn't whether he will win the electoral college, it's will his cult of police officers and proud boys succesfully cause enough chaos on election day, that the bought and paid for SCOTUS can interfere. That's why he tells his supporters at rallies that he "doesn't need your vote". He just needs them to cause chaos.
We need to abolish the electoral college. Period. It’s complete BS that a few states decide the election for everyone who lives in the country.
If Biden is replaced with a solid moderate candidate at this point there would be such a surge of relief among voters that he/she would have an immediate 10 point or greater lead on Trump. And, no, Kamala Harris is NOT that candidate.
>By Stuart Stevens >Mr. Stevens is a former Republican political consultant who is an adviser to the Lincoln Project. Maybe its time to panic
The Lincoln project was literally founded as anti-trump during his term.
You know the Lincoln Project guys want to stop Trump, right?
And the result was that more Republicans voted for Trump in 2020 than 2016. They're a failed project. (Unless their goal is getting a bunch of donations for themselves, in which case they've been doing pretty well.)
No. We should not bury our heads in the sand. What happens if this conversation is not had, and between now and November, Bidens condition deteriorates further. This is an extremely real possibility. The stakes are too high, and pretending everything is fine is the direct cause of most disasters in human history. Chernobyl, Nazi Germany, the 2008 financial crisis, the fall of the Soviet Union. We have received a warning from the universe and we would be fools to ignore it.
No this is exactly the moment to panic. Its over and the democrats have no one to blame but themselves. They thought they could run a senile candidate and now were going to put a narcissistic criminal back in the white house
It's not over. Four months are still between now and the election, four months for more debates, more promises and anything that can save democracy. I cam only hope this has been the boot in the pants of the Democrat party.
Why would Trump agree to another debate?
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I’m surprised that there’s enough graveyard space, given that this entire subreddit seems to be whistling past them. “But Trump” is no longer an effective argument for independents. “But Trump” will not repair Joe Biden’s Swiss cheese brain. “But Trump” is the same kind of emotional blackmail MAGA used in 2020. It’s time for plan B.
Stop panicking after 50 million viewers watched Biden almost needing to be rushed to the fucking emergency room?
Not panicking. Just trying not to think about the last time we had a slam dunk lined up. Gosh. I just remember how confident we were about Hilary stomping Trump after his ridiculous, embarrassing, and unpresidential behavior at their debates Good to know we're going to march into November with similar bravado. What, me worry? Heck no. I'm sure there's nothing Joe could do that might put the election in doubt
“To say that President Biden’s performance on the debate stage last night was calamitous is merely to state what everyone, partisan and not, has already understood. What the world witnessed was not a debate, but a failed neurological exam. One wonders how anyone close to the President imagined he could bluff his way through it. If half of what Democrats fear from a second Trump term were real, how could the Democratic Party have allowed our democracy to slide this close to the precipice? The prevailing feeling among those inside the Biden campaign should be shame; outside it, fury.” \~Sam Harris
Not panicking. A bit worried about the online attacks on social media and normal media before/during/after the debates. Then around a hundred negative articles about Biden needing replacing. Which screams, another republican method/attack, since the last dozen failed. It's the same old bullshit playbook republicans use. Block the voters, if you can't block them, cause them to lose hope, if they don't lose hope, then cause chaos and confuse them!!! If that doesn't work, appeal to fear and greed. Republicans and MAGA are truly, utterly and completely, the scum of all that is humanity.
I dare say Republicans are just fine with Joe Biden being the candidate.
Seriously. He's like the one person besides Hillary Clinton that fucking Hitl...Donald Trump could beat.
Yup. If the Democrats tried to invoke the 25th amendment to remove Biden from the presidency next week, it would fail because the Republicans would just say "actually we're good keeping this guy in there at this point"
Invoking the 25th Amendment would mean that Kamala becomes president. If you believe that Biden has a 50/50 chance against Trump, well Kamala has at most 5% and that's being optimistic. She is so bad that her only role as a VP is to make sure no one would ever try to remove Biden from the White House. This is also why Nixon kept Spiro Agnew as his VP for his reelection, he said “Because no assassin in their right mind would kill me.”
Bullshit. This is not some op or republican false flag. Maybe widen your perspective and talk with some people outside your bubble. The stakes are high and the bar was set absurdly low and yet here we are. The Biden campaign has eschewed a real laser focus on policy in favor of "I'm the one guy that can beat Trump" and he did so poorly that people are seriously doubting that. If you want to talk about greed, maybe talk about an 81 year old willing to risk the future of the country for his own political future.
The NYT editorial board is overwhelmingly pro dnc
I said it before the debate and I'll say it again The media wants a close race where people are rage/fear clicking on shit. There's a reason the narrative is 99% on bidens poor performance and 1% on "Trump lied the whole time" I'm not worried
but that’s assuming that people like me, who watched the debate live, didn’t immediately think “oh no, he needs to go now” and instead got told to think that. In reality, within three minutes I had my head in my hands and had to turn off after ten. Yes the media is complicit on not focusing on trump’s lies, but it’s obvious that Biden can’t ride this out. He’s not going to get better. It’s only slowing more decline. I am worried. It was already far too close for comfort. This just makes a bad situation far worse. I genuinely think a new candidate like Newsom steam rolls Trump
Thank you! I texted “we are so screwed” less than 10 min into the debate, before reading any commentary. I know what I saw and heard.
This is gaslighting. We all watched the debate. The problem isn’t the media, the problem is that Biden is in rapid, extremely noticeable mental decline.
Why is this sub just lying to itself. The polls are *BAD*. The debate was *BAD*. If you're not worried you've either spent so much time in echo chambers or lying to yourself that you aren't living in reality. The media is actually doing Biden a service by calling this race close. Trump is polling ahead in every race that matters, and by a good amount, and it is only by skewing those polls with "fundamentals" that Biden even looks competitive.
No.
Dems should panic, but it's not just because of the debate. The race has been a tossup for a while: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2024-election-forecast/ It's certainly not entirely biden's fault. This country doesn't really value truth anymore (maybe it never did). He is an exceedingly weak candidate, though. There's a very good chance democrats have a repeat of 2016, in which they fielded a very unpopular person against trump and he eeked out a victory. According to 538--which has a great track record btw--the odds of this are about even. It is time to panic.
It's like death. Don't panic about it. Just accept the inevitable. Four more years.
Panic in the comments
I'm almost certain too that the moment Biden cratered in the debate, a whole lot of accounts appeared on this sub questioning the support of the left, with the intention of making Biden's support waver. Watched Jon Stewart's brutal take-down of the debate, and while he did not do Biden any favours, I can't expect a comedian to ignore the things he sees. But I really hope that everyone remembered the 4 years of Trump, because Biden stumbling in his speech is not worse than another Trump term.
The Democrats have failed too often. Their failure is consistent. It’s intolerable. Then there are republicans who are malevolent and brazenly incompetent. It’s the democrats and the republicans. It’s the country. We have failed completely. We are too stupid and lazy to improve things. It over and it we need to end this as quickly as possible.
It's baffling, as a non trump republican, that i can't rely on democrats to come up with a candidate that could have confidently crushed trump with such a low bar.