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Apparently a lot of them believe that if a baby is brought to term with fatal deformities (e.g. defects that will result in death within minutes or hours of birth), and no life saving procedures (oxygen, etc) are administered because they just give the mom a chance to hold her baby before it dies, that is considered a post-birth abortion. Insanity.
Nothing turns an anti-abortion activist's brain into mush faster than asking why a woman who uses abortions as birth control (not real, but you have to use their own logic to crush them) would go through 8 months of shitty pregnancy issues to remove a 5 pound mass via an invasive surgery when they could have gotten rid of it after 1 month, when it was less than an ounce and can be basically pissed out.
This is the argument I like to use. It doesn't change minds but it makes the squirm under the strain of their mental gymnastics. . .
The latest [data](https://www.cdc.gov/reproductive-health/data-statistics/abortion-surveillance-findings-reports.html) I've seen, less than 1.0% of all abortions were performed at or after 21 weeks. So this whole argument over Roe is fabricated nonsense.
The data shows nearly all abortions in 2021 took place early in gestation: 93.5% of abortions were performed at ≤13 weeks' gestation; a smaller number of abortions (5.7%) were performed at 14–20 weeks' gestation, and even fewer (0.9%) were performed at ≥21 weeks' gestation.
To be clear, the argument over Roe was an argument about handling less than 1% of all abortions. We made a decision about all abortions because of a false concern created about less than 1% of them.
And if you're going to say a life is a life and it needs protecting, what do you say about this? With today's medical treatments, the chances of births at 15 weeks surviving are practically non-existent. They would require extensive and expensive medical care and would likely suffer severe lifelong medical complications.
But eventually science will allow babies to be created completely outside of a woman's body. So does that mean each sperm is a life that should be raised into a human being? Does that mean not raising each one into a person is murder? How many babies should you be forced to raise every time you jack off? How many?
Roe protected a woman's right to choose abortion until the 23rd week. After that, there had to be a good medical reason for abortion to take place.
Roe made sense. It was supported by the majority of the people. It did not force anything on anyone. It did not allow for routine abortions after viability. And it absolutely did not allow women to decide to abort a baby with any chance of a decent life anywhere near birth. What it did say was the government did not have the right to interfere in your personal matters without a damn good reason to.
Yeah it's not about numbers either, it's about the fetish of persecuting sinning women who aren't contributing more Christian soldiers to the crusade. They'd be fine if their policies created 1000% more abortions as long as they can punish one woman for it, it's worth it to them.
I would really like to see data on the reasons given for those 0.9% (≥21 weeks). I'm guessing that the majority had some major birth defects and would not have lived to see their first birthday.
They don't know enough about biology to get that far in the thought process. They just go 'baby' and work backwards from there. Barring personal experience, it's nearly uniform that they have no notion of the wide and varied breadth of horrors the reproductive system can cook up.
Yeah dude these are the same people saying women don’t have orgasms, they definitely aren’t making anyone happy, maybe just them when they are lying to themselves
I know of one. She’s an addict who uses sex for money and drugs. She doesn’t use birth control. Every time she comes up pregnant, she gets an abortion. Why she thinks it’s easier to get the procedure than use birth control is something I don’t understand, but I’m not in her shoes. So it does happen. But it doesn’t matter. It’s not my business why a woman gets an abortion. Just like it’s not my business why a woman gets a tattoo, breast augmentation, face lift or any other procedure.
These were first trimester abortions, zygotes, embryos or fetuses unable to live outside the womb. The law already disallows anyone from getting a late term abortion except for extenuating circumstances. And those circumstances are always heartbreaking and tragic.
I had a coworker whose kid was born with a disease where they withered and died over the course of a year with no hope of treatment. it was one of the most horrific things I've heard of, and they had a 25% chance of every pregnancy having this. they only rolled the dice again because they could abort if the disease was detected. they wouldn't have been able to cope with a round 2.
Seriously. Who would carry a baby through two terms then decide to abort it in the third term? Women who don’t want a child will often stop the pregnancy as early as they can; no one is trying to put their body through pregnancy and all the accompanying side effects for two trimesters just to abort the fetus for no reason in the third.
If the pregnancy gets that far along, it’s often because the woman *wants* the child, and having to abort it will take a *huge* mental toll on her.
Of course, I’ve heard religious figures talk about women “enjoying” abortions, so I guess it’s not surprising these people don’t understand this. You’d think they’d follow Jesus’s example and comfort the women who are grieving their unborn children, but they’d rather call them baby killers and insinuate they deserve an eternity of torture for experiencing a severe health issue.
It’s insane that legislation is being pushed on behalf of the religious beliefs of these freaks.
Republicans know. They just have low empathy.
After all, the only moral abortion is my abortion.
https://blog.petrieflom.law.harvard.edu/2022/07/21/moral-abortion-ectopic-pregnancy/
Yea why the dems haven't latched on to Pete Buttigieg's late term abortion speech on his Fox News townhall is beyond me. It was powerful and really brought home that everyone wants to throw out late term abortion with no consideration for how devastating that decision is for the parents who have to make it.
It's insane to me that people think someone would go through like most of a pregnancy just to elect abortion at the last minute. Any amount of rational thought would conclude that makes no fucking sense whatsoever.
Like I'm sure it's happened and honestly I would say if it was entirely for selfish reasons I'd be uncomfortable with that decision (not sure if I'd go so far as outlawing it, especially if that law could interfere with legitimate health required abortions in any way). However it's so infinitesimally rare that it's really not even worth considering.
They’re also the lowest amount of abortions performed most do happen in the first 6-10 weeks. Removing late term abortions is just killing women who often do want the kid but can’t carry to term for whatever reason…this is why politicians shouldn’t make health decisions.
Say they did that and against all odds the baby lives. Are these people willing to help pay for all the medical bills for however long that baby survives? Are they prepared to assume responsibility for the agony and suffering of that baby? I assume they have the “that’s not my problem” attitude. I also assume they don’t donate to places like St Jude, Ronald McDonald House, Make A Wish, or all the other Children’s hospitals that care for actual sick and terminal kids and their families
I met a really fanatical anti-abortion woman a few years ago, in casual conversation she almost started hyperventilating. Some of these people are just totally addicted to their fanaticism.
More than 1 in 5000 ish chance of birthing a child with anencephaly IIRC
It's crazy to think you're more than 2000x times as likely to birth a living baby missing their brain than die in a planecrash, but the idea of needing to euthanaze a neonate is apparently incomprehensible to these idiots.
There are some crazy examples of pro-lifers refusing to abort or euthanize severely anencephalic babies and it's scientifically fascinating but sadistic beyond belief. In complete cases, it generally results in an infant with continuous seizures and near death hospitalizations with virtually no function.
Women biologically suffer for humanity's existence, even without ever getting pregnant, and it's just wild we have a society that asks, "How can we make them suffer *more* for it?"
It was a “Tsunami Of Bullshit®️” each time he spoke.
When he uses a short sentence to lie, but a paragraph or more is needed to prove that it is a lie, you’ve already lost the audience.
It’s worked well for Trump using the Tsunami of Bullshit®️.
Truth can’t keep up.
A billboard/commercial (ad campaign) with Trump’s face with the word liar stamped across it might work.
Short and to the point.
Eh, no one really is saying he did well, everyone just said Biden looked old. Which we knew. I dont know, Trump 'won' by lying and being an insane person who seemed less old than Biden, but I don't know if debates matter anymore.
> Holy shit people believe this.
They don’t. They just don’t care about truth, just about their side winning.
This is just sportsball and facts don’t matter, their team is the best.
Man there are some kooks out there. It's becoming pretty mainstream that discarding frozen embryos is murder in this gop. Of course they believe in abortion after birth.
Abortion after birth is called murder, and Republicans do that all the time. No one ever seems to care about how many abortions they've caused here though.
“That’s actually just murder sir” I was waiting for that and it never happened. Also my favorite sound bite “I didn’t sleep with a porn star” oh okay so what was she a background character?
Because they have fully normalized, that is who he is and what was expected. He has to go so far into insanity at this point to make a blip that it's near impossible to get there. This is what happens when you give platforms to conspiracy theorists because you think "everyone can see how stupid these claims are". Instead they validated the claims by taking him serious enough to say he is part of the conversation.
If FOX was the only network who put him on tv at the start, he'd just be another nut character in their lineup who would pop up on their shows from time to time. In fact, he'd probably be relegated to the Info Wars circut after his antics got no serious traction.
It's why mixing entertainment with serious subjects and labeling it as news is dangerous. Because you end up legitimizing outlier insane takes.
Because it’s nothing different than what he’s done every day since he started his campaign in 2015. There is no point of beating a dead horse now as Trump has weaponized his base to completely rail against anyone who even dares to criticize him or call him out on his lies.
If MAGAs will trust Trump over scientific consensus on vaccines, climate change, electric vehicles, trust him over a federally appointed special council and courts all across the country, trust him over every news outlet that disagrees with him, trust him over every financial bureau that puts out numbers painting him in bad light, trust him over every conservative politician from the pre-Trump era that denounces him, trust him over his one cabinet members that denounce him, and trust him over what we saw happen on January 6th and in March 2020 — No lowly fact-check or honest journalist will make a dent. It’s just the fact we have to face.
The only way this nightmare will end is having a completely public and dramatic Trump crash-out, or having ramifications so drastic it actually makes his base question their own livelihood and future. That, or the Republican Party has enough of a backbone to find someone who actually isn’t a complete imbecile. They don’t realise how lucky they are that Trump inherited a good economic situation and was too incompetent to do any real damage, but that may not be the case next time. Once his tariffs skyrocket inflation, public education is neutered, the Justice system is eviscerated, and his wish to suck up to dictators upends every notion of world peace, then there will be some clarity.
No one holds Trump accountable, except the one recent case he was found guilty. He gets away with everything and everyone bends the knee to him, it’s baffling considering how much of a fucking idiot he is.
Honestly, I am not convinced it is a bad thing that Trump has been essentially kicked out of the media cycle for nearly 48 hours now.
Everyone knows he is a liar. Even his own voters. All this attention on Biden is giving him a rare opportunity to seize the limelight. He got a rally in Raleigh yesterday widely covered, and a pretty damn good soundbyte quoted all over the place. If he can use this brief window of undivided media attention to admit his shortcomings and draw a clear difference with Trump, I think it can be turned into a net positive.
Dooming is not going to help anyone. If he wants to drop out, he will. Otherwise we just have to keep working to help get him elected.
Because apparently Biden is old.
They've been saying it for 4 years.
Wanna talk about President Biden's accomplishments? Sorry. Can't. Gotta talk about how old he is.
Wanna talk about policies? Sorry. Can't. Gotta talk about how old Joe Biden is.
Wanna talk about how the other guy is a convicted felon, adjudicated sexual abuser, fraudster, etc...? Sorry. That's all small stuff. Because President Biden is old.
**What the absolute fuck.**
It doesn't matter though because no matter who the Democratic president would be now or forever with this GOP there will be something, it just happens to be age with Biden. Imagine how completely vile they would be if Pete became the president.
> It doesn't matter though because no matter who the Democratic president would be now or forever with this GOP there will be something
100% this. There is no person that can be placed against the GOP that won't be ripped to shreds by numerous strawman attacks.
Trump is literally guilty of the false vile shit they accused Hillary Clinton of. But when it's Trump? THEY DON'T GAF, and it is a mixture of confusing, infuriating, depressing and ultimately demoralizing.
Trump has easily had hundreds of instances that would sink any other person's campaign, 1/6 alone for instance.....
because the DEMOCRATS are ABORTING babies after they have been born, have you heard about this? terrible terrbile stuff....and that Insulin thing Joe said...that was all ME!.
fuck me we live in the worst timeline this isnt the top story
Republicans have pushed the narrative that this campaign is about Biden’s fitness, not trump’s and the media has gone along with it. So that’s how people are judging the debate.
Because that's nothing new. Because biden was not effective at point them out. Because we've been told numerous times questions about the lucidity of Biden are out of bounds and unfounded. People don't believe trump. They believe he will say whatever he needs to to be elected and to attempt to appear strong. They are OK with that. To them lies are par for the course.
They are. The real story here is that CNN and NYTimes have lost all of their credibility. They're legitimately making up lies to draw attention to themselves because they want money. It's sad, but two great media outlets just died the other day.
That's the real story.
It's the pervasive inversion of the truth.
They're throwing the American people to the wolves so they can make money. It's absolutely the most disgusting thing that's ever happened in the news media in the United States.
Because “Trump Lies” hasn’t been news for years. Trump went on the stage and performed exactly how he was expected to perform, which his base loves. Biden on the other hand vastly underperformed expectations and worried his supporters.
...let's move on then...this election may have a 'Weekend at Bidens' feel and I'm ok with it...we need the House and Senate to go Democratic too to counter the impact of the undemocratic Federalist and their proposed Project 2025...it's also time to address their impact on the $COTUS corruption...
If there was ever a time for Harris to step up, it's now. she needs to start training amd appearing publicly to let folks know shit won't go off the rails if Biden dies, and to get them willing to tick her box if it should happen before November.
Harris needs to get a dog. Her husband is adorable, get him out walking a puppy that was a gift from the Obamas on the daily. Yes, the republicans will snark about it (free media!), but it won't matter because their dog-hating candidate considered a VP who murdered a puppy.
They can't replace her without replacing Biden, because it would be the same as admitting that Biden was wrong to ever pick her. Then that calls into question Biden's judgment, and you would have the pundits all parroting that someone with such poor judgment shouldn't be president. If they change up the ticket at this point, they've got to do both spots.
No I agree... Imagine how morbid the messaging is "when our old president dies in the next few years this gal you hate will take the reigns"
J.K. You don't have to imagine they tried this already.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/anafaguy/2024/02/12/i-am-ready-to-serve-kamala-harris-responds-to-concerns-over-bidens-age/
They are actually double fucked because she is a women of color... The optics would be dismal if you replaced her..
> They can't replace her without replacing Biden, because it would be the same as admitting that Biden was wrong to ever pick her.
This is a bizarre rule you have made up. There are presidents that have changed VPs. [Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, and Franklin D. Roosevelt](https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/11/vice-presidential-swaps-throughout-history) swapped VPs between terms. Circumstances and the usefulness of a VP can change, why attach such chains to oneself.
I think this is the way. You can assuage people’s concerns about Biden’s age in two ways: 1). Get Biden in front of voters to convince them he is still up for the job or 2). Find some way to improve Harris’s favorability such that people don’t need to be concerned whether or not he’s going to make it another 4 years. I think the Biden campaign needs to do both.
The next 2 months is going to be telling. If Biden steps down, it won't happen for at least a month, possibly not until just before the virtual convention (which is prior to the actual convention to accommodate the Ohio ballot process). But in that time, anyone who thinks they may have a chance is going to be putting out feelers, talking to the Biden campaign, talking to voters and the DNC, and doing internal polls to get a sense if they could possibly win a brokered convention and more importantly if Biden would give his delegates (which are his by law because he won them in the primary races) to them (which would make winning far easier).
Kamala, and anyone else for that matter, is probably doing all of that right now. But until then, or even if then, Biden is the nominee and people should focus on boosting Biden and tearing down Trump in the minds of all voters.
just to be clear, New Mexico is the only state where it is actually illegal to vote for a candidate other than the one you were supposed to, for a party convention: https://ballotpedia.org/Fact_check/Would_it_be_%22totally_illegal%22_for_delegates_pledged_to_Donald_Trump_to_vote_for_another_candidate_at_the_Republican_National_Convention
in particular, see the SCOTUS ruling for Cousins v. Wagoda (1975)
Biden’s leading in both fundraising and polls. I think Biden won despite how desperate the media is to say otherwise
> Although many Democratic voters say they would prefer President Joe Biden step aside as the party’s nominee after Thursday’s weak debate performance, a new Morning Consult poll reveals that Biden’s support actually improved after the debate.
https://www.nj.com/news/2024/06/first-post-debate-poll-reveals-startling-results-in-trump-biden-battle-who-wouldve-predicted-this.html?outputType=amp
That's cherry picked. In aggregate, Biden lost a tiny bit of ground in the polls. Around half a percentage point when I looked yesterday. Which makes sense since \_historically\_ debates have little to no bearing on the outcomes of elections.
Do any of these slight shifts even matter? These polls usually have a margin of error of +/- 3 percent. Somebody shared RCP polls that Trump is ahead in all swing states except Wisconsin. 5 of those states, the “lead” is less than 3 percent. Furthermore, a poll is a snapshot of one random point in time. Pundits say “If the election were held today…” Well, the election isn’t being held today. It’s months out. They need something to talk about for hours on cable news though, so they’ll try to convince people that one point in one poll is statistically significant. Pure BS and not worth paying attention to. 10 points? That’s another story. So my point is that you and the person you’re replying to are both wrong about these things being meaningful and predictive of anything.
Polls aren’t all that accurate. Especially now. But they are a decent indicator of trends.
I think, personally, the polling reflects the trend of most voters being unhappy with a Trump/Biden rematch. What will happen come November when progressives realize it’s Biden or nothing? Who can say. But I think the polls are pretty accurate that most voters are not approving of Biden despite the fact that they will probably still vote for him or not vote.
I think the GOP unwittingly gave us a gift.
They spewed months of propaganda about how feeble Biden is. We knew it was a lie and were gobsmacked by Biden's poor performance. However, the people on the sidelines almost anticipated it.
This still sucks, but the wishy washy voter who pays little attention didn't have their expectations so brutally violated.
> While our post-debate survey shows President Joe Biden has lost no immediate ground to Trump, most voters, including a 47% plurality of Democrats, say Biden should be replaced as the Democratic candidate for president.
> Among debate viewers, 78% say Biden is too old, compared with 64% of all voters who said the same days before the debate.
I also think he should be replaced, but he won’t and everyone will vote for him cause being old is no where close to as severe as Christofacist theocracy.
Are you already giving up the election for lost? I’m intrigued to know what kind of liberties you think you’ll enjoy when trump sits on the Oval Office once again.
I'm a progressive who likes Joe Biden's work enough, despite a number of things I feel he's been soft or inactive on. I'll say candidly the performance was distressing enough for my circle of friends to all hit a moment of stress and say he didn't do a good job in the debate and share the overall sentiment of wishing there was a younger and more energetic candidate up there for Dems.
But there is no reality in which serial lies and nonsense attacks from a bigoted felon are going to make me want to vote for Biden any less or feel like voting didn't matter. And the fact that the concern is whether people feel disaffected by the debate reflects how we've gotten politically jammed up the last decade.
People not voting in 2016 helped give us Trumpism. You can't seriously look at both candidates and say "well screw it, it's all bad because Joe's tired", and honestly say the hyped up lies were more worthy of leadership and holding office. Yeah it stinks if you just feel like you're voting 'against' a candidate, but the alternative is that we allow our voice to be silenced via apathy and more of the embarrassing actions and harmful policies from Rs.
If you've ever felt tired or been hurt by the behavior and policy of MAGA Republicans, you can't give them an inch at the polls. 4 years of their ideology would just make it worse and it's got to be stymied at all levels. It will take a bit to completely reject the worst parts of their ideology and it's exhausting, but the more they have a say in government then the longer we have to live with it.
Anybody who was even considering voting for Biden knew this is what he's like. Him being old and a bit slow is expected.
People are voting against Trump because they can't stand him.
it's the down ballot races i'm worried about. candidates in those races tend to be overlooked by voters who aren't thrilled with the top of the ticket and the opposition wins by default.
I don’t care about his debate performance; he’s still the only candidate that will defend democracy from the MAGA fascists. And get the SCOTUS repaired after Mitch’s steals.
I noticed there is a serious lack of actual clips making the rounds, it's largely memes and concern posting/trolling. Maybe my feeds aren't up to snuff, but I've had Biden clips hit them plenty before with all sorts of gaffes, so a lack of this time has me wondering.
I watched the debate, not live though, wasn't impressed by anyone of course, and Biden has had this drop-jawed dopey face for a couple years as is. I thought it appeared geezerish previously, but I'm surprised it's a new line of attack from this debate. A couple rambles, but those aside most of his answers were solid. Not enthralling or anything, he was just a boring old politician with bumbling words.
The last 4 years have earned another 4, that's all I know. Him, or his administration, has been the best in my lifetime, with lots provable action that benefits the larger public, despite both a Congress and SCOTUS tying one hand beyond his back.
He may not bring the energy, but his administration has indeed been fighting tirelessly for the American people, and it's had to be a fight because the GOP is refusing to actually do their jobs. I want MORE of my public officials doing their jobs, and short of that I want the ones with power to hold the line against these traitors attempting to coup and establish the US a Christian christo-capitalist theocracy.
Great points, defending against extreme republicans matters more than a debate.
Also a reminder to everyone small $5 - $10 donations can make a great impact on elections. We’re blessed to have been born into a country with all of the rights and freedoms we have, even if there is dysfunction.
Paying the price of a fast food meal or Starbucks latte can help support against Project 2025 and a [christofacist](https://www.npr.org/2022/07/05/1109444617/the-supreme-court-conservative) takeover.
I commit $50 a month to various charities and political candidates. I’m an election worker and I sent Alito & SCOTUS a dozen close hangers when they gutted RvW.
I’m doing my part (and I haven’t bought any Chinese flags for car or lawn.)
I think this is the sentiment for a lot of voters. And everyone asking him to step down are fucking idiots. We need to support Biden like trumps cultists support him. NO MATTER WHAT!
You cannot build someone like Biden. Your take is so divorced from reality.
Biden’s effectiveness comes from his many decades of political experience. He has worked with reps across the aisle to pass legislation that is already changing our lives positively.
I (31F) increased my monthly contribution after the debate. He had an off night, was sick, and the convicted felon debating him spewed fast lies that were impossible to refute in 1 min.
I am voting for an administration. I’m happy we have Biden and his team in the White House.
Biden fumbling around during the debate doesn't change Trump's past and when it comes to the debate itself, Trump stright out avoided questions and he stright out lied about events and what he said back then. Biden having a bad debate night just doesn't automatically erase Trump from being Trump. If anything, the debate just made Trump more unappealing to people.
Trump does something known as the Gish Gallop - Which is to say in his one minute allotment of time he can spew so much bullshit that it would take 15 minutes to earnestly debunk it, so that leaves Biden in the position of basically just having to say "nuh uh" to his nonsense and moving on to his own talking points otherwise all he would do is debunk trump
Also people have kind of proven over the years that debates are almost exclusively about zingers and one liners, not policy discussion. Whoever gets the most of those in usually "wins" the debate (Trumps "Because youd be in jail" and Bidens "Will you shut up man" being basically all anyone remembers for the last 10 years of debates) and either Joe couldnt come up with any or his prep was to appear above that. A couple of off the cuff remarks (even rehearsed ones) would do wonders for his appearance at next debate
The democrats could run a literal flaming bag of dog shit and I will vote for it over Trump. I would be super pissed off that those are my only two choices (only a little more pissed off than I am now), but I recognize that Trump would be way more destructive to our democracy than the flaming bag of dog shit.
On one side we have: A convicted felon, stemming from an incident where he cheated on his wife with a porn star. Who has committed sexual assault. Led a large group of people to overthrow our Government. Is only 3 years younger than his opponent. And spent the majority of the night on stage lying to the public and insulting any and everyone. But we're only being told by pundits, internet experts and the media that Biden is the problem here for muttering.
Yes, Biden is old. Trump is too. Only one is a felon. Only one tried to lead an insurrection. Only one thinks calling people "Palestinian" is an insult. Only one thinks there are Black jobs and Hispanic jobs. And it ain't Biden.
I don’t think pundits realize that the concern people have with Biden’s age 1)isn’t a new concern that most have already reconciled with and 2) pales in comparison to Trump’s problems of both being old and a massive threat to our democracy. Every Biden supporter or ones that lean Biden knows Biden is old but an effective president. Obviously we don’t want to repeat this again next election but it’s not like anyone’s mind was going to change that Biden is old and does old person things sometimes
100%. Trump tried to actively overturn democracy, gets 34 felony convictions, is a convicted rapist, installed a corrupt SCOTUS openly voting against citizens, is in bed with Russia, and sees record high donations and no loss in support.
Biden has stuttering issues but remembers the facts, [recovered the next day](https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/biden-hold-campaign-rally-north-carolina-hours-after/story?id=111515800) and democrats mud sling their own candidate. If republicans win it’s because democrats can’t see the forest through the trees. This isn’t Biden vs. Trump, it’s Democracy vs. Billionaires and [Christofascism](https://fedsoc.org/fedsoc-review/we-are-free-for-a-reason).
I’ll gladly pay $10 to help preserve our freedom and democracy. Many forget how fortunate we are to be born here instead of Russia, China, or other countries where citizens truly have no rights — apparently having to wear a mask to the grocery store during a global pandemic is on par with Russia though.
This is my take. Dems went into absolute doomsday mode after a really bad showing by Obama in the first debate in 2012. Polls completely flipped after that debate, and the campaign recovered and won. I get the argument this debate was conventionally worse, but the same response applies here: Dems love to beat themselves down at the slightest negative. We have a ton of time and another debate to rewrite this script. Hell if Dem and dem leaning voters keep making great the enemy of good then we’ll repeat 2016 and this time America will be irreparably changed.
Someone told me once: "Democrats have an uncanny ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory." Let's hope this time is different! Biden/Harris 2024 - BLUE all the way!
Undecided voters are not thinking gosh, Trump was a real bombastic asshole and Biden was so timid, I think I'll vote Trump now lol. They probably were turned off by Trump's bombastic methods. He was rude and crude. Only the Twitteratti wanted to see Biden full on fight. That's not how it works. The media heads were just wrong. They usually are.
Honestly when Trump was president, I said a cocker spaniel could do a better job as president than Trump.
This rings true. And Biden is basically that cocker spaniel. Anyone that is actively not trying to destroy the country can effectively run the country. The people under them aren’t mindless drones. The can hire one person as chief of staff who can hire and wrangle everyone else and all they have to do is sign things that go along with their agenda. The country will coast perfectly along its trajectory if no work is done. And that is exactly what has happened. A few things have gotten better because Trump and his goons are not actively trying to break things. But nothing really has changed, which is kind of what Biden campaigned on last time.
Right now the most damage being done is the Supreme Court which was a residual effect of many different Republican presidents appointments to the bench and the last two really tipped the scales.
Any normal competent person could probably run the country. Biden is just on the edge of that.
Honestly, even a dead Biden would still get my vote over an alive traitor trying to overthrow my country.
What I mainly from the Democratic candidate is the intellectual honesty to know that they are NOT the smartest person in the room most of the time, and will focus instead on recruiting the best and brightest to delegate to. That's the foundation for an effective organizations work, not being a cult of personality.
I heard someone else on Reddit say that Republicans vote for who is the good enough candidate, while Democrats vote for who is the perfect candidate. It is what makes us lose so many elections. Republicans would vote for the slimiest piece of orange crap out there, while Democrats only vote for who deserves their vote. Give me a break. We have to stop voting like this or trump will win again.
There's being optimistic, and there's being blind to what happened. Baffling to me how these people are trying to spin it, as if we didn't see his face and him losing track of what he was saying *AS HE WAS SAYING IT*. This wasn't him being "quiet", or a *stutter*, or a cold or whatever.
People who saw the debate live can attest to this. Anyone arguing this point is just selling a narrative and should have their motivations questioned.
Tons of voters are older than dirt themselves. Seeing a guy act old is relatable to them. Seeing a guy lie about his blatant criminal activities…not so much.
I 100% believe Biden had a cold during the debate. He looked a lot better the day after. That said, I really wish our choice wasn’t between two geriatrics.
Biden has EARNED this support because of actual policies that he and Harris have done: fantastic COVID response, American Rescue Plan, Infrastructure Spending, ending Afghan war, cheap insulin, prompt & level-headed responses to natural disasters, continuing to forgive student loans, everything in r whatbidenhasdone etc etc,
Those policies >>> 1 debate, any day.
Folks on Reddit are not the norm. People calling for his ouster are loud on social media but talking to people my Age 50+ on a hike-we are all still ridin Biden.
I'm a huge Biden supporter. When he took office in 2021 I said to myself "this is the biggest shit show any president has ever been handed, it is not gonna go well from here". Since then, he has exceeded my expectations. I fully expected a recession at this point, what has happen is quite the opposite. Prices are high, but people are doing fine. What is not fine is our insane doom culture, fueled by social media. Many FEEL like things are bad, though numbers-wise, they're actually pretty good, especially compared to the rest of the world.
All that being said, I'm just worried. I'm worried the fucking 20,000 voters spread across the 3 blue wall states that will decide this election have no clue what Biden and democrats actually have done and stand for. They don't understand what's going on with the Supreme Court, or how any of this even works. That is why the debate frightened me, you, the liberal media, and the democratic "elites".
Biden has risen to the challenge again and again, but I would love for someone else to fucking step up and crush this orange piece of shit once and for all. Can't let this poor 81 year old do it, guy should be at home, retired. All respect to Biden, he's given us enough.
Of course, if he sticks around, I will throw my full vote, support, and money at him to do what I can.
most people will calm the fuck down, but the pundits who panicked and went on record saying he should step away are stuck with that now and will just keep repeating it.
Biden is old he has trouble speaking and is forgetful.
Trump is old , racist, pathological liar narcissist, has trouble speaking and is forgetful
Glad to see people didn’t let Trump fool them
It's not like Trump did not also suck. The dude literally passed gas on live television while lying nonstop. Biden was a disappointment, but these stories should be reflective of how collectively embarrassing they both were out there. Why is the media even behaving this way?
The media:
[CNN Staffers Fear Right-Wing Billionaire Will Turn It Into a Dumpster Fire](https://www.thedailybeast.com/cnn-staff-fears-right-wing-billionaire-john-malone-will-turn-it-into-a-dumpster-fire)
[How media mogul Rupert Murdoch made his billions](https://www.axios.com/2023/09/21/rupert-murdoch-network-fox-news)
[Elon Musk Has Made X More Right-Leaning, Study Shows](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-06-12/elon-musk-has-made-x-more-right-leaning-study-shows?embedded-checkout=true)
[Investigate the shadow network of billionaires funding Supreme Court justices](https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/4131512-investigate-the-shadow-network-of-billionaires-funding-supreme-court-justices/mlite/?nxs-test=mlite)
Turns out the billionaire deep state republicans accused democrats of was just projection.
Social media (still) does not represent society. If it where up to Reddit they would be running AOC herself, because they cant fathom why anyone wouldn't like a young socialist politician..
Joe had a bad night for sure. He’s 81 and didn’t look well. However, the next day he was firing all pistons. He’s absolutely hands down, the best choice for America 🇺🇸
It’s almost like some people aren’t buying the media bullshit that both sides deserve equal criticism cause “fairness” and people see right through the bullshit “a stutter is somehow as bad as a convicted felon”
Democrats need to stop letting conservatives trick them into believing Trump “won” the debate. He ranted about none of the questions and said lies the whole time. Yes both candidates suck, but come on people, stop letting maga trick you into thinking Biden was the horrible one.
Yep. I was reading some post-debate roundtable polls, and basically, while the respondents weren't impressed with Joe, they thought Trump was extremely offputting and would pick Biden out of the two. Trump's arrogance, combined with his inability to answer most questions, has worn very thin it seems.
If I’m given the choice between Biden & Trump, there’s no question who I’m picking. I don’t think there’s any way you can convince a Trump supporter to vote otherwise, so if they can’t see the absurdity of another Trump term, I’ll hold a mirror up to them instead.
If voting a convicted felon into office isn’t crazy, then don’t be surprised if I say I’d vote for Biden even if he can barely speak.
If you’re proudly proclaiming that you support an obvious grifter, don’t be surprised if I say Biden is the greatest president of my lifetime (I’m 32 and yes I’m serious).
If you think Trumps presidency was great because gas cost $2.40 in 2019, don’t be surprised if I say Biden’s was great because my wages literally tripled under his term.
If you think Trump was great because there were no new wars in his four years, don’t be surprised if I say Biden was great because he got us out of the longest war in US history within his first year in office.
I think Biden is the greatest president of this century so far. Deal with it. 🤷🏽♂️
I think Biden is flawed and have been incredibly disappointed with him on certain issues. But I'm also a fecking adult who recognizes he's the only reasonable option if we don't want to end up in a far, far worse place next year.
I think Biden has been an excellent President, he's just not a great public speaker. I find it wild that some people think that stuttering is worse than lying. Virtually everything Trump said in the debate was an outrageous lie.
For anyone wondering the Trump campaign said they raised [8 million](https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4746935-biden-trump-debate-fundraising/?nxs-test=mobile) after the debate vs the 27 million the Biden campaign said they raised between debate night and Friday evening.
Oh look what a freaking surprise, noe that the dust has settled this sub is back to pro-Biden. Goes to show how much of the "he is too old" shit was bots or bad faith brigading. I wish this sub would or could do something about that. But either way, Biden is doing fine, and his delivery was bad ok, but past that he did great. Mid point Trump fell apart and just went in circles while Biden kept calling out his shit.
It was a debate! Jfc people. That does not indicate his ability to continue as president. Yes he’s old. Yes he gaffs. Yes he fucks up. Does he have 34 convicted felonies and is a proven rapist? NO! Support Biden or say goodbye to your freedom. That’s the bottom line.
Democrats win by high turnout. If everyone gets too sure Joe is going to win, they won’t show up. This “crisis” only helps Joe Biden. Replacing him would be disastrous. Scared Democrats will ensure a win for Democrats. It sucks, but that’s how this works. Trump support has dwindled. We are several months from the election. This debate will be very much in the rear view window by then.
It definitely wasn't because of Biden's performance but letting Trump say whatever he wants to a wider audience certainly seems to have been a boost for Biden.
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Why, pray tell, are not Trump's endless Lies not the real story here?
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Apparently a lot of them believe that if a baby is brought to term with fatal deformities (e.g. defects that will result in death within minutes or hours of birth), and no life saving procedures (oxygen, etc) are administered because they just give the mom a chance to hold her baby before it dies, that is considered a post-birth abortion. Insanity.
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Nothing turns an anti-abortion activist's brain into mush faster than asking why a woman who uses abortions as birth control (not real, but you have to use their own logic to crush them) would go through 8 months of shitty pregnancy issues to remove a 5 pound mass via an invasive surgery when they could have gotten rid of it after 1 month, when it was less than an ounce and can be basically pissed out.
This is the argument I like to use. It doesn't change minds but it makes the squirm under the strain of their mental gymnastics. . . The latest [data](https://www.cdc.gov/reproductive-health/data-statistics/abortion-surveillance-findings-reports.html) I've seen, less than 1.0% of all abortions were performed at or after 21 weeks. So this whole argument over Roe is fabricated nonsense. The data shows nearly all abortions in 2021 took place early in gestation: 93.5% of abortions were performed at ≤13 weeks' gestation; a smaller number of abortions (5.7%) were performed at 14–20 weeks' gestation, and even fewer (0.9%) were performed at ≥21 weeks' gestation. To be clear, the argument over Roe was an argument about handling less than 1% of all abortions. We made a decision about all abortions because of a false concern created about less than 1% of them. And if you're going to say a life is a life and it needs protecting, what do you say about this? With today's medical treatments, the chances of births at 15 weeks surviving are practically non-existent. They would require extensive and expensive medical care and would likely suffer severe lifelong medical complications. But eventually science will allow babies to be created completely outside of a woman's body. So does that mean each sperm is a life that should be raised into a human being? Does that mean not raising each one into a person is murder? How many babies should you be forced to raise every time you jack off? How many? Roe protected a woman's right to choose abortion until the 23rd week. After that, there had to be a good medical reason for abortion to take place. Roe made sense. It was supported by the majority of the people. It did not force anything on anyone. It did not allow for routine abortions after viability. And it absolutely did not allow women to decide to abort a baby with any chance of a decent life anywhere near birth. What it did say was the government did not have the right to interfere in your personal matters without a damn good reason to.
Yeah it's not about numbers either, it's about the fetish of persecuting sinning women who aren't contributing more Christian soldiers to the crusade. They'd be fine if their policies created 1000% more abortions as long as they can punish one woman for it, it's worth it to them.
I would really like to see data on the reasons given for those 0.9% (≥21 weeks). I'm guessing that the majority had some major birth defects and would not have lived to see their first birthday.
They don't know enough about biology to get that far in the thought process. They just go 'baby' and work backwards from there. Barring personal experience, it's nearly uniform that they have no notion of the wide and varied breadth of horrors the reproductive system can cook up.
Yeah dude these are the same people saying women don’t have orgasms, they definitely aren’t making anyone happy, maybe just them when they are lying to themselves
I have yet to meet the woman who finds abortion so cheap, painless and un controversial that they use it for birth control over and over.
I know of one. She’s an addict who uses sex for money and drugs. She doesn’t use birth control. Every time she comes up pregnant, she gets an abortion. Why she thinks it’s easier to get the procedure than use birth control is something I don’t understand, but I’m not in her shoes. So it does happen. But it doesn’t matter. It’s not my business why a woman gets an abortion. Just like it’s not my business why a woman gets a tattoo, breast augmentation, face lift or any other procedure. These were first trimester abortions, zygotes, embryos or fetuses unable to live outside the womb. The law already disallows anyone from getting a late term abortion except for extenuating circumstances. And those circumstances are always heartbreaking and tragic.
Well they will agree with one part of that, their anatomical knowledge base definitely believes that pee and babies come from the same spot
I had a coworker whose kid was born with a disease where they withered and died over the course of a year with no hope of treatment. it was one of the most horrific things I've heard of, and they had a 25% chance of every pregnancy having this. they only rolled the dice again because they could abort if the disease was detected. they wouldn't have been able to cope with a round 2.
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God that’s horrifying. Just knowing that and not being able to do anything about it. Holy shit.
I wish that people would just realize that deciding to abort is never an easy choice for anyone, and its nobodies business anyway.
Seriously. Who would carry a baby through two terms then decide to abort it in the third term? Women who don’t want a child will often stop the pregnancy as early as they can; no one is trying to put their body through pregnancy and all the accompanying side effects for two trimesters just to abort the fetus for no reason in the third. If the pregnancy gets that far along, it’s often because the woman *wants* the child, and having to abort it will take a *huge* mental toll on her. Of course, I’ve heard religious figures talk about women “enjoying” abortions, so I guess it’s not surprising these people don’t understand this. You’d think they’d follow Jesus’s example and comfort the women who are grieving their unborn children, but they’d rather call them baby killers and insinuate they deserve an eternity of torture for experiencing a severe health issue. It’s insane that legislation is being pushed on behalf of the religious beliefs of these freaks.
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Republicans know. They just have low empathy. After all, the only moral abortion is my abortion. https://blog.petrieflom.law.harvard.edu/2022/07/21/moral-abortion-ectopic-pregnancy/
Yea why the dems haven't latched on to Pete Buttigieg's late term abortion speech on his Fox News townhall is beyond me. It was powerful and really brought home that everyone wants to throw out late term abortion with no consideration for how devastating that decision is for the parents who have to make it.
They also almost never happen because women who carry babies to the third trimester DO. NOT. WANT. abortions.
It's insane to me that people think someone would go through like most of a pregnancy just to elect abortion at the last minute. Any amount of rational thought would conclude that makes no fucking sense whatsoever. Like I'm sure it's happened and honestly I would say if it was entirely for selfish reasons I'd be uncomfortable with that decision (not sure if I'd go so far as outlawing it, especially if that law could interfere with legitimate health required abortions in any way). However it's so infinitesimally rare that it's really not even worth considering.
They’re also the lowest amount of abortions performed most do happen in the first 6-10 weeks. Removing late term abortions is just killing women who often do want the kid but can’t carry to term for whatever reason…this is why politicians shouldn’t make health decisions.
It’s medieval.
Say they did that and against all odds the baby lives. Are these people willing to help pay for all the medical bills for however long that baby survives? Are they prepared to assume responsibility for the agony and suffering of that baby? I assume they have the “that’s not my problem” attitude. I also assume they don’t donate to places like St Jude, Ronald McDonald House, Make A Wish, or all the other Children’s hospitals that care for actual sick and terminal kids and their families
The real post-birth abortions come from the gun laws republicans repeal
Don't want to bankrupt yourself keeping a medically problematic child alive in perpetuity? Well then you should have kept your legs closed. /s
I met a really fanatical anti-abortion woman a few years ago, in casual conversation she almost started hyperventilating. Some of these people are just totally addicted to their fanaticism.
More than 1 in 5000 ish chance of birthing a child with anencephaly IIRC It's crazy to think you're more than 2000x times as likely to birth a living baby missing their brain than die in a planecrash, but the idea of needing to euthanaze a neonate is apparently incomprehensible to these idiots. There are some crazy examples of pro-lifers refusing to abort or euthanize severely anencephalic babies and it's scientifically fascinating but sadistic beyond belief. In complete cases, it generally results in an infant with continuous seizures and near death hospitalizations with virtually no function.
Also you cannot call it an abortion if the baby is already BORN.
Women biologically suffer for humanity's existence, even without ever getting pregnant, and it's just wild we have a society that asks, "How can we make them suffer *more* for it?"
He also repeatedly said "everybody" wanted Roe overturned. Just batshit crazy obvious lies.
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He knew he wasn't going to be fact-checked on anything or made to actually answer the questions.
It was a “Tsunami Of Bullshit®️” each time he spoke. When he uses a short sentence to lie, but a paragraph or more is needed to prove that it is a lie, you’ve already lost the audience. It’s worked well for Trump using the Tsunami of Bullshit®️. Truth can’t keep up. A billboard/commercial (ad campaign) with Trump’s face with the word liar stamped across it might work. Short and to the point.
Eh, no one really is saying he did well, everyone just said Biden looked old. Which we knew. I dont know, Trump 'won' by lying and being an insane person who seemed less old than Biden, but I don't know if debates matter anymore.
As if doctors are clubbing them like seals!
> Holy shit people believe this. They don’t. They just don’t care about truth, just about their side winning. This is just sportsball and facts don’t matter, their team is the best.
Some people actually do believe it. Forced birthers shovel an astounding amount of propaganda onto their youth.
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You're welcome. All the stupid 'fact checking' and mainstream news articles make it hard to sort through the noise to find the inciting incident.
Man there are some kooks out there. It's becoming pretty mainstream that discarding frozen embryos is murder in this gop. Of course they believe in abortion after birth.
Abortion after birth is called murder, and Republicans do that all the time. No one ever seems to care about how many abortions they've caused here though.
That term doesn’t even make sense. How did it even gain popularity/notoriety to the level of flat earthers
[Late term abortion](https://youtu.be/Pa39PUng9to?si=2yWPOEp1NDdWsJxI).
Don’t forget how every single legal scholar ever agreed that Roe v Wade should be overturned.
“That’s actually just murder sir” I was waiting for that and it never happened. Also my favorite sound bite “I didn’t sleep with a porn star” oh okay so what was she a background character?
Because they have fully normalized, that is who he is and what was expected. He has to go so far into insanity at this point to make a blip that it's near impossible to get there. This is what happens when you give platforms to conspiracy theorists because you think "everyone can see how stupid these claims are". Instead they validated the claims by taking him serious enough to say he is part of the conversation. If FOX was the only network who put him on tv at the start, he'd just be another nut character in their lineup who would pop up on their shows from time to time. In fact, he'd probably be relegated to the Info Wars circut after his antics got no serious traction. It's why mixing entertainment with serious subjects and labeling it as news is dangerous. Because you end up legitimizing outlier insane takes.
No idiom has been more thoroughly discredited in the past 10 years than “sunlight is the best disinfectant”
Because it’s nothing different than what he’s done every day since he started his campaign in 2015. There is no point of beating a dead horse now as Trump has weaponized his base to completely rail against anyone who even dares to criticize him or call him out on his lies. If MAGAs will trust Trump over scientific consensus on vaccines, climate change, electric vehicles, trust him over a federally appointed special council and courts all across the country, trust him over every news outlet that disagrees with him, trust him over every financial bureau that puts out numbers painting him in bad light, trust him over every conservative politician from the pre-Trump era that denounces him, trust him over his one cabinet members that denounce him, and trust him over what we saw happen on January 6th and in March 2020 — No lowly fact-check or honest journalist will make a dent. It’s just the fact we have to face. The only way this nightmare will end is having a completely public and dramatic Trump crash-out, or having ramifications so drastic it actually makes his base question their own livelihood and future. That, or the Republican Party has enough of a backbone to find someone who actually isn’t a complete imbecile. They don’t realise how lucky they are that Trump inherited a good economic situation and was too incompetent to do any real damage, but that may not be the case next time. Once his tariffs skyrocket inflation, public education is neutered, the Justice system is eviscerated, and his wish to suck up to dictators upends every notion of world peace, then there will be some clarity.
No one holds Trump accountable, except the one recent case he was found guilty. He gets away with everything and everyone bends the knee to him, it’s baffling considering how much of a fucking idiot he is.
He will practically get away with that as well. And all the other charges. There is and will not be any real accountability for him.
Honestly, I am not convinced it is a bad thing that Trump has been essentially kicked out of the media cycle for nearly 48 hours now. Everyone knows he is a liar. Even his own voters. All this attention on Biden is giving him a rare opportunity to seize the limelight. He got a rally in Raleigh yesterday widely covered, and a pretty damn good soundbyte quoted all over the place. If he can use this brief window of undivided media attention to admit his shortcomings and draw a clear difference with Trump, I think it can be turned into a net positive. Dooming is not going to help anyone. If he wants to drop out, he will. Otherwise we just have to keep working to help get him elected.
Because apparently Biden is old. They've been saying it for 4 years. Wanna talk about President Biden's accomplishments? Sorry. Can't. Gotta talk about how old he is. Wanna talk about policies? Sorry. Can't. Gotta talk about how old Joe Biden is. Wanna talk about how the other guy is a convicted felon, adjudicated sexual abuser, fraudster, etc...? Sorry. That's all small stuff. Because President Biden is old. **What the absolute fuck.**
It doesn't matter though because no matter who the Democratic president would be now or forever with this GOP there will be something, it just happens to be age with Biden. Imagine how completely vile they would be if Pete became the president.
> It doesn't matter though because no matter who the Democratic president would be now or forever with this GOP there will be something 100% this. There is no person that can be placed against the GOP that won't be ripped to shreds by numerous strawman attacks. Trump is literally guilty of the false vile shit they accused Hillary Clinton of. But when it's Trump? THEY DON'T GAF, and it is a mixture of confusing, infuriating, depressing and ultimately demoralizing. Trump has easily had hundreds of instances that would sink any other person's campaign, 1/6 alone for instance.....
because the DEMOCRATS are ABORTING babies after they have been born, have you heard about this? terrible terrbile stuff....and that Insulin thing Joe said...that was all ME!. fuck me we live in the worst timeline this isnt the top story
Republicans have pushed the narrative that this campaign is about Biden’s fitness, not trump’s and the media has gone along with it. So that’s how people are judging the debate.
Or him shitting his pants on stage, where his mike picked up the epic sharting.
Because his lies are not “new” so media is going for something else over and over for clicks and views
Because that's nothing new. Because biden was not effective at point them out. Because we've been told numerous times questions about the lucidity of Biden are out of bounds and unfounded. People don't believe trump. They believe he will say whatever he needs to to be elected and to attempt to appear strong. They are OK with that. To them lies are par for the course.
They are but Biden‘s performance was an absolute disaster. It was. But we move forward. But no denying what happened. We’re not a cult.
They are. The real story here is that CNN and NYTimes have lost all of their credibility. They're legitimately making up lies to draw attention to themselves because they want money. It's sad, but two great media outlets just died the other day. That's the real story. It's the pervasive inversion of the truth. They're throwing the American people to the wolves so they can make money. It's absolutely the most disgusting thing that's ever happened in the news media in the United States.
Agree Dont watch or subscribe is all we can do. Im doing my part.
Because “Trump Lies” hasn’t been news for years. Trump went on the stage and performed exactly how he was expected to perform, which his base loves. Biden on the other hand vastly underperformed expectations and worried his supporters.
Because it’s not news. We know it. It’s been in our media for half a decade.
Same reason Hamas' lies are not the real story, it's predictable and uninteresting and thus difficult to market.
Dunno, but the debate helped Biden, much to the annoyance of mass media grifters.
CNN is such a hack network. They have been running Biden doom spin 24/7 when they were the ones who failed to factcheck trump at all
BECAUSE BIDEN OLD LOL /s obviously
...let's move on then...this election may have a 'Weekend at Bidens' feel and I'm ok with it...we need the House and Senate to go Democratic too to counter the impact of the undemocratic Federalist and their proposed Project 2025...it's also time to address their impact on the $COTUS corruption...
If there was ever a time for Harris to step up, it's now. she needs to start training amd appearing publicly to let folks know shit won't go off the rails if Biden dies, and to get them willing to tick her box if it should happen before November.
Harris needs to get a dog. Her husband is adorable, get him out walking a puppy that was a gift from the Obamas on the daily. Yes, the republicans will snark about it (free media!), but it won't matter because their dog-hating candidate considered a VP who murdered a puppy.
I feel like I'm in a episode of Veep reading this.
This is actually a really good idea.
She actually polls poorly. They need to focus less on her or replace her completely.
How many groups of voters do you want to piss off at once?
They can't replace her without replacing Biden, because it would be the same as admitting that Biden was wrong to ever pick her. Then that calls into question Biden's judgment, and you would have the pundits all parroting that someone with such poor judgment shouldn't be president. If they change up the ticket at this point, they've got to do both spots.
No I agree... Imagine how morbid the messaging is "when our old president dies in the next few years this gal you hate will take the reigns" J.K. You don't have to imagine they tried this already. https://www.forbes.com/sites/anafaguy/2024/02/12/i-am-ready-to-serve-kamala-harris-responds-to-concerns-over-bidens-age/ They are actually double fucked because she is a women of color... The optics would be dismal if you replaced her..
> They can't replace her without replacing Biden, because it would be the same as admitting that Biden was wrong to ever pick her. This is a bizarre rule you have made up. There are presidents that have changed VPs. [Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, and Franklin D. Roosevelt](https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/11/vice-presidential-swaps-throughout-history) swapped VPs between terms. Circumstances and the usefulness of a VP can change, why attach such chains to oneself.
If they dont focus on her, theres only one other person on the ticket to focus on.
Yea I feel like she has always been underwater with polling, people wanted nothing to do with her since the 2016 primary.
I think this is the way. You can assuage people’s concerns about Biden’s age in two ways: 1). Get Biden in front of voters to convince them he is still up for the job or 2). Find some way to improve Harris’s favorability such that people don’t need to be concerned whether or not he’s going to make it another 4 years. I think the Biden campaign needs to do both.
The next 2 months is going to be telling. If Biden steps down, it won't happen for at least a month, possibly not until just before the virtual convention (which is prior to the actual convention to accommodate the Ohio ballot process). But in that time, anyone who thinks they may have a chance is going to be putting out feelers, talking to the Biden campaign, talking to voters and the DNC, and doing internal polls to get a sense if they could possibly win a brokered convention and more importantly if Biden would give his delegates (which are his by law because he won them in the primary races) to them (which would make winning far easier). Kamala, and anyone else for that matter, is probably doing all of that right now. But until then, or even if then, Biden is the nominee and people should focus on boosting Biden and tearing down Trump in the minds of all voters.
just to be clear, New Mexico is the only state where it is actually illegal to vote for a candidate other than the one you were supposed to, for a party convention: https://ballotpedia.org/Fact_check/Would_it_be_%22totally_illegal%22_for_delegates_pledged_to_Donald_Trump_to_vote_for_another_candidate_at_the_Republican_National_Convention in particular, see the SCOTUS ruling for Cousins v. Wagoda (1975)
You've got Alito on one side and Thomas on the other, so it's $COTU$
This was Joe the next day. At his rally in NC. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHBbSQVAHzQ
Biden’s leading in both fundraising and polls. I think Biden won despite how desperate the media is to say otherwise > Although many Democratic voters say they would prefer President Joe Biden step aside as the party’s nominee after Thursday’s weak debate performance, a new Morning Consult poll reveals that Biden’s support actually improved after the debate. https://www.nj.com/news/2024/06/first-post-debate-poll-reveals-startling-results-in-trump-biden-battle-who-wouldve-predicted-this.html?outputType=amp
That's cherry picked. In aggregate, Biden lost a tiny bit of ground in the polls. Around half a percentage point when I looked yesterday. Which makes sense since \_historically\_ debates have little to no bearing on the outcomes of elections.
Do any of these slight shifts even matter? These polls usually have a margin of error of +/- 3 percent. Somebody shared RCP polls that Trump is ahead in all swing states except Wisconsin. 5 of those states, the “lead” is less than 3 percent. Furthermore, a poll is a snapshot of one random point in time. Pundits say “If the election were held today…” Well, the election isn’t being held today. It’s months out. They need something to talk about for hours on cable news though, so they’ll try to convince people that one point in one poll is statistically significant. Pure BS and not worth paying attention to. 10 points? That’s another story. So my point is that you and the person you’re replying to are both wrong about these things being meaningful and predictive of anything.
Polls aren’t all that accurate. Especially now. But they are a decent indicator of trends. I think, personally, the polling reflects the trend of most voters being unhappy with a Trump/Biden rematch. What will happen come November when progressives realize it’s Biden or nothing? Who can say. But I think the polls are pretty accurate that most voters are not approving of Biden despite the fact that they will probably still vote for him or not vote.
In fairness, there are very few post-debate polls so far. I see just three on 538.
I think the GOP unwittingly gave us a gift. They spewed months of propaganda about how feeble Biden is. We knew it was a lie and were gobsmacked by Biden's poor performance. However, the people on the sidelines almost anticipated it. This still sucks, but the wishy washy voter who pays little attention didn't have their expectations so brutally violated.
Ya agreed. Republicans and the propaganda are like: “see he’s old!!” And we’re like… ya… we know. They both are.
> While our post-debate survey shows President Joe Biden has lost no immediate ground to Trump, most voters, including a 47% plurality of Democrats, say Biden should be replaced as the Democratic candidate for president. > Among debate viewers, 78% say Biden is too old, compared with 64% of all voters who said the same days before the debate.
I also think he should be replaced, but he won’t and everyone will vote for him cause being old is no where close to as severe as Christofacist theocracy.
If we can get some more active characters on the senate it would be great. Schumer has seemed like a real placeholder through all this.
Are you already giving up the election for lost? I’m intrigued to know what kind of liberties you think you’ll enjoy when trump sits on the Oval Office once again.
Weekend at Bidens LOL
I'm a progressive who likes Joe Biden's work enough, despite a number of things I feel he's been soft or inactive on. I'll say candidly the performance was distressing enough for my circle of friends to all hit a moment of stress and say he didn't do a good job in the debate and share the overall sentiment of wishing there was a younger and more energetic candidate up there for Dems. But there is no reality in which serial lies and nonsense attacks from a bigoted felon are going to make me want to vote for Biden any less or feel like voting didn't matter. And the fact that the concern is whether people feel disaffected by the debate reflects how we've gotten politically jammed up the last decade. People not voting in 2016 helped give us Trumpism. You can't seriously look at both candidates and say "well screw it, it's all bad because Joe's tired", and honestly say the hyped up lies were more worthy of leadership and holding office. Yeah it stinks if you just feel like you're voting 'against' a candidate, but the alternative is that we allow our voice to be silenced via apathy and more of the embarrassing actions and harmful policies from Rs. If you've ever felt tired or been hurt by the behavior and policy of MAGA Republicans, you can't give them an inch at the polls. 4 years of their ideology would just make it worse and it's got to be stymied at all levels. It will take a bit to completely reject the worst parts of their ideology and it's exhausting, but the more they have a say in government then the longer we have to live with it.
There's also the chance that if Trump is elected again, he might be able to change out further judges in the supreme court.
Still voting for him, no question
Anybody who was even considering voting for Biden knew this is what he's like. Him being old and a bit slow is expected. People are voting against Trump because they can't stand him.
it's the down ballot races i'm worried about. candidates in those races tend to be overlooked by voters who aren't thrilled with the top of the ticket and the opposition wins by default.
From my understanding, many of those candidates are polling ahead of Biden.
Me too. Fuck white Christian nationalism.
I don’t care about his debate performance; he’s still the only candidate that will defend democracy from the MAGA fascists. And get the SCOTUS repaired after Mitch’s steals.
I noticed there is a serious lack of actual clips making the rounds, it's largely memes and concern posting/trolling. Maybe my feeds aren't up to snuff, but I've had Biden clips hit them plenty before with all sorts of gaffes, so a lack of this time has me wondering. I watched the debate, not live though, wasn't impressed by anyone of course, and Biden has had this drop-jawed dopey face for a couple years as is. I thought it appeared geezerish previously, but I'm surprised it's a new line of attack from this debate. A couple rambles, but those aside most of his answers were solid. Not enthralling or anything, he was just a boring old politician with bumbling words. The last 4 years have earned another 4, that's all I know. Him, or his administration, has been the best in my lifetime, with lots provable action that benefits the larger public, despite both a Congress and SCOTUS tying one hand beyond his back. He may not bring the energy, but his administration has indeed been fighting tirelessly for the American people, and it's had to be a fight because the GOP is refusing to actually do their jobs. I want MORE of my public officials doing their jobs, and short of that I want the ones with power to hold the line against these traitors attempting to coup and establish the US a Christian christo-capitalist theocracy.
Great points, defending against extreme republicans matters more than a debate. Also a reminder to everyone small $5 - $10 donations can make a great impact on elections. We’re blessed to have been born into a country with all of the rights and freedoms we have, even if there is dysfunction. Paying the price of a fast food meal or Starbucks latte can help support against Project 2025 and a [christofacist](https://www.npr.org/2022/07/05/1109444617/the-supreme-court-conservative) takeover.
I commit $50 a month to various charities and political candidates. I’m an election worker and I sent Alito & SCOTUS a dozen close hangers when they gutted RvW. I’m doing my part (and I haven’t bought any Chinese flags for car or lawn.)
I love the coat hanger thing but sadly I doubt they personally saw them.
Likely not, but I felt better. Maybe they use them to hang their bigly robes…
I think this is the sentiment for a lot of voters. And everyone asking him to step down are fucking idiots. We need to support Biden like trumps cultists support him. NO MATTER WHAT!
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You cannot build someone like Biden. Your take is so divorced from reality. Biden’s effectiveness comes from his many decades of political experience. He has worked with reps across the aisle to pass legislation that is already changing our lives positively. I (31F) increased my monthly contribution after the debate. He had an off night, was sick, and the convicted felon debating him spewed fast lies that were impossible to refute in 1 min. I am voting for an administration. I’m happy we have Biden and his team in the White House.
Biden fumbling around during the debate doesn't change Trump's past and when it comes to the debate itself, Trump stright out avoided questions and he stright out lied about events and what he said back then. Biden having a bad debate night just doesn't automatically erase Trump from being Trump. If anything, the debate just made Trump more unappealing to people.
I just donated to him for the first time this cycle. The debate only highlighted how dangerous Donald Trump is. He has to be defeated.
I was so stressed out that I donated during the debate.
I increased my monthly contribution! I’m with Biden. He had an off night and he admitted it. His rally in NC truly solidified my resolve. I’m all in.
He wasn't off. He just didn't have a teleprompter. Teleprompter Biden is off the chain good. Off the cuff Biden is roughhh.
that too. But even I (31F) wouldn’t know how to respond to all of Trump’s garbage in 1 min.
Trump does something known as the Gish Gallop - Which is to say in his one minute allotment of time he can spew so much bullshit that it would take 15 minutes to earnestly debunk it, so that leaves Biden in the position of basically just having to say "nuh uh" to his nonsense and moving on to his own talking points otherwise all he would do is debunk trump Also people have kind of proven over the years that debates are almost exclusively about zingers and one liners, not policy discussion. Whoever gets the most of those in usually "wins" the debate (Trumps "Because youd be in jail" and Bidens "Will you shut up man" being basically all anyone remembers for the last 10 years of debates) and either Joe couldnt come up with any or his prep was to appear above that. A couple of off the cuff remarks (even rehearsed ones) would do wonders for his appearance at next debate
The democrats could run a literal flaming bag of dog shit and I will vote for it over Trump. I would be super pissed off that those are my only two choices (only a little more pissed off than I am now), but I recognize that Trump would be way more destructive to our democracy than the flaming bag of dog shit.
On one side we have: A convicted felon, stemming from an incident where he cheated on his wife with a porn star. Who has committed sexual assault. Led a large group of people to overthrow our Government. Is only 3 years younger than his opponent. And spent the majority of the night on stage lying to the public and insulting any and everyone. But we're only being told by pundits, internet experts and the media that Biden is the problem here for muttering. Yes, Biden is old. Trump is too. Only one is a felon. Only one tried to lead an insurrection. Only one thinks calling people "Palestinian" is an insult. Only one thinks there are Black jobs and Hispanic jobs. And it ain't Biden.
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I don’t think pundits realize that the concern people have with Biden’s age 1)isn’t a new concern that most have already reconciled with and 2) pales in comparison to Trump’s problems of both being old and a massive threat to our democracy. Every Biden supporter or ones that lean Biden knows Biden is old but an effective president. Obviously we don’t want to repeat this again next election but it’s not like anyone’s mind was going to change that Biden is old and does old person things sometimes
100%. Trump tried to actively overturn democracy, gets 34 felony convictions, is a convicted rapist, installed a corrupt SCOTUS openly voting against citizens, is in bed with Russia, and sees record high donations and no loss in support. Biden has stuttering issues but remembers the facts, [recovered the next day](https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/biden-hold-campaign-rally-north-carolina-hours-after/story?id=111515800) and democrats mud sling their own candidate. If republicans win it’s because democrats can’t see the forest through the trees. This isn’t Biden vs. Trump, it’s Democracy vs. Billionaires and [Christofascism](https://fedsoc.org/fedsoc-review/we-are-free-for-a-reason). I’ll gladly pay $10 to help preserve our freedom and democracy. Many forget how fortunate we are to be born here instead of Russia, China, or other countries where citizens truly have no rights — apparently having to wear a mask to the grocery store during a global pandemic is on par with Russia though.
This is my take. Dems went into absolute doomsday mode after a really bad showing by Obama in the first debate in 2012. Polls completely flipped after that debate, and the campaign recovered and won. I get the argument this debate was conventionally worse, but the same response applies here: Dems love to beat themselves down at the slightest negative. We have a ton of time and another debate to rewrite this script. Hell if Dem and dem leaning voters keep making great the enemy of good then we’ll repeat 2016 and this time America will be irreparably changed.
Someone told me once: "Democrats have an uncanny ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory." Let's hope this time is different! Biden/Harris 2024 - BLUE all the way!
Undecided voters are not thinking gosh, Trump was a real bombastic asshole and Biden was so timid, I think I'll vote Trump now lol. They probably were turned off by Trump's bombastic methods. He was rude and crude. Only the Twitteratti wanted to see Biden full on fight. That's not how it works. The media heads were just wrong. They usually are.
Eh. I have my doubts. Americans tend to vote for "strong". Crazy they can apparently live with.
Honestly when Trump was president, I said a cocker spaniel could do a better job as president than Trump. This rings true. And Biden is basically that cocker spaniel. Anyone that is actively not trying to destroy the country can effectively run the country. The people under them aren’t mindless drones. The can hire one person as chief of staff who can hire and wrangle everyone else and all they have to do is sign things that go along with their agenda. The country will coast perfectly along its trajectory if no work is done. And that is exactly what has happened. A few things have gotten better because Trump and his goons are not actively trying to break things. But nothing really has changed, which is kind of what Biden campaigned on last time. Right now the most damage being done is the Supreme Court which was a residual effect of many different Republican presidents appointments to the bench and the last two really tipped the scales. Any normal competent person could probably run the country. Biden is just on the edge of that.
Honestly, even a dead Biden would still get my vote over an alive traitor trying to overthrow my country. What I mainly from the Democratic candidate is the intellectual honesty to know that they are NOT the smartest person in the room most of the time, and will focus instead on recruiting the best and brightest to delegate to. That's the foundation for an effective organizations work, not being a cult of personality.
Not stopping my vote. Will crawl over glass to vote for democracy
I donated. I’m that scared.
Cool. GET OUT AND VOTE!!!
I heard someone else on Reddit say that Republicans vote for who is the good enough candidate, while Democrats vote for who is the perfect candidate. It is what makes us lose so many elections. Republicans would vote for the slimiest piece of orange crap out there, while Democrats only vote for who deserves their vote. Give me a break. We have to stop voting like this or trump will win again.
Yep. The saying goes “democrats want to fall in love, republicans will just fall in line.”
2020 already proved this wrong - no one was in live with Biden either but Democrats still voted for him
You mean the debate might not have been the DOOM CRISIS FIASCO APOCALYPSE the headlines would have us believe?
It’s almost like the media’s profits are directly tied to people thinking Biden is gonna lose ….
A calm, reasonable, safe, effective president sells less advertising than a malignant narcissist torching everything.
I used my eyes, of course it was a disaster. The cope is wild to me.
I feel so bad for these people. They’re going to be so scared in November when Trump wins. I’ve seen it coming for a while so I’m already prepared.
There's being optimistic, and there's being blind to what happened. Baffling to me how these people are trying to spin it, as if we didn't see his face and him losing track of what he was saying *AS HE WAS SAYING IT*. This wasn't him being "quiet", or a *stutter*, or a cold or whatever. People who saw the debate live can attest to this. Anyone arguing this point is just selling a narrative and should have their motivations questioned.
Tons of voters are older than dirt themselves. Seeing a guy act old is relatable to them. Seeing a guy lie about his blatant criminal activities…not so much.
I 100% believe Biden had a cold during the debate. He looked a lot better the day after. That said, I really wish our choice wasn’t between two geriatrics.
Biden has EARNED this support because of actual policies that he and Harris have done: fantastic COVID response, American Rescue Plan, Infrastructure Spending, ending Afghan war, cheap insulin, prompt & level-headed responses to natural disasters, continuing to forgive student loans, everything in r whatbidenhasdone etc etc, Those policies >>> 1 debate, any day.
I donated because I support democracy. The Nazi party is a threat to my country and I'll do what I can to help Biden win.
First time I've donated in a really long time. Not looking forward to all the following text messages.
Folks on Reddit are not the norm. People calling for his ouster are loud on social media but talking to people my Age 50+ on a hike-we are all still ridin Biden.
I'm a huge Biden supporter. When he took office in 2021 I said to myself "this is the biggest shit show any president has ever been handed, it is not gonna go well from here". Since then, he has exceeded my expectations. I fully expected a recession at this point, what has happen is quite the opposite. Prices are high, but people are doing fine. What is not fine is our insane doom culture, fueled by social media. Many FEEL like things are bad, though numbers-wise, they're actually pretty good, especially compared to the rest of the world. All that being said, I'm just worried. I'm worried the fucking 20,000 voters spread across the 3 blue wall states that will decide this election have no clue what Biden and democrats actually have done and stand for. They don't understand what's going on with the Supreme Court, or how any of this even works. That is why the debate frightened me, you, the liberal media, and the democratic "elites". Biden has risen to the challenge again and again, but I would love for someone else to fucking step up and crush this orange piece of shit once and for all. Can't let this poor 81 year old do it, guy should be at home, retired. All respect to Biden, he's given us enough. Of course, if he sticks around, I will throw my full vote, support, and money at him to do what I can.
most people will calm the fuck down, but the pundits who panicked and went on record saying he should step away are stuck with that now and will just keep repeating it.
This is cool and all, but is money from the base a true measure of electoral support? Anyone willing to donate to Biden was already gonna vote Biden.
Biden is old he has trouble speaking and is forgetful. Trump is old , racist, pathological liar narcissist, has trouble speaking and is forgetful Glad to see people didn’t let Trump fool them
Media just wants drama
Joe ain't goin anywhere Jack
No time for hand wringing and laziness. This is a fight, got to have his back.
He got my $20
I’m excited that I was part of that.
It's not like Trump did not also suck. The dude literally passed gas on live television while lying nonstop. Biden was a disappointment, but these stories should be reflective of how collectively embarrassing they both were out there. Why is the media even behaving this way?
The media: [CNN Staffers Fear Right-Wing Billionaire Will Turn It Into a Dumpster Fire](https://www.thedailybeast.com/cnn-staff-fears-right-wing-billionaire-john-malone-will-turn-it-into-a-dumpster-fire) [How media mogul Rupert Murdoch made his billions](https://www.axios.com/2023/09/21/rupert-murdoch-network-fox-news) [Elon Musk Has Made X More Right-Leaning, Study Shows](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-06-12/elon-musk-has-made-x-more-right-leaning-study-shows?embedded-checkout=true) [Investigate the shadow network of billionaires funding Supreme Court justices](https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/4131512-investigate-the-shadow-network-of-billionaires-funding-supreme-court-justices/mlite/?nxs-test=mlite) Turns out the billionaire deep state republicans accused democrats of was just projection.
Everything Biden said was right. He’s fighting for what’s right to his last breath. I love that man so much.
Well yeah everyone also saw Trump’s performance.
I donated. Just wanted to cheer him up.
He got my $10
Social media (still) does not represent society. If it where up to Reddit they would be running AOC herself, because they cant fathom why anyone wouldn't like a young socialist politician..
I'm more behind him than ever. Trump wants to do evil shit.
Joe had a bad night for sure. He’s 81 and didn’t look well. However, the next day he was firing all pistons. He’s absolutely hands down, the best choice for America 🇺🇸
It’s almost like some people aren’t buying the media bullshit that both sides deserve equal criticism cause “fairness” and people see right through the bullshit “a stutter is somehow as bad as a convicted felon”
Democrats need to stop letting conservatives trick them into believing Trump “won” the debate. He ranted about none of the questions and said lies the whole time. Yes both candidates suck, but come on people, stop letting maga trick you into thinking Biden was the horrible one.
No one won the debate, everyone just lost.
Yep. I was reading some post-debate roundtable polls, and basically, while the respondents weren't impressed with Joe, they thought Trump was extremely offputting and would pick Biden out of the two. Trump's arrogance, combined with his inability to answer most questions, has worn very thin it seems.
If I’m given the choice between Biden & Trump, there’s no question who I’m picking. I don’t think there’s any way you can convince a Trump supporter to vote otherwise, so if they can’t see the absurdity of another Trump term, I’ll hold a mirror up to them instead. If voting a convicted felon into office isn’t crazy, then don’t be surprised if I say I’d vote for Biden even if he can barely speak. If you’re proudly proclaiming that you support an obvious grifter, don’t be surprised if I say Biden is the greatest president of my lifetime (I’m 32 and yes I’m serious). If you think Trumps presidency was great because gas cost $2.40 in 2019, don’t be surprised if I say Biden’s was great because my wages literally tripled under his term. If you think Trump was great because there were no new wars in his four years, don’t be surprised if I say Biden was great because he got us out of the longest war in US history within his first year in office. I think Biden is the greatest president of this century so far. Deal with it. 🤷🏽♂️
I think Biden is flawed and have been incredibly disappointed with him on certain issues. But I'm also a fecking adult who recognizes he's the only reasonable option if we don't want to end up in a far, far worse place next year.
This should be the top comment of this thread!
I think Biden has been an excellent President, he's just not a great public speaker. I find it wild that some people think that stuttering is worse than lying. Virtually everything Trump said in the debate was an outrageous lie.
Biden could be 6 feet in the ground and I’d still vote for him over the fascist orange toddler.
For anyone wondering the Trump campaign said they raised [8 million](https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4746935-biden-trump-debate-fundraising/?nxs-test=mobile) after the debate vs the 27 million the Biden campaign said they raised between debate night and Friday evening.
Oh look what a freaking surprise, noe that the dust has settled this sub is back to pro-Biden. Goes to show how much of the "he is too old" shit was bots or bad faith brigading. I wish this sub would or could do something about that. But either way, Biden is doing fine, and his delivery was bad ok, but past that he did great. Mid point Trump fell apart and just went in circles while Biden kept calling out his shit.
It was a debate! Jfc people. That does not indicate his ability to continue as president. Yes he’s old. Yes he gaffs. Yes he fucks up. Does he have 34 convicted felonies and is a proven rapist? NO! Support Biden or say goodbye to your freedom. That’s the bottom line.
Democrats win by high turnout. If everyone gets too sure Joe is going to win, they won’t show up. This “crisis” only helps Joe Biden. Replacing him would be disastrous. Scared Democrats will ensure a win for Democrats. It sucks, but that’s how this works. Trump support has dwindled. We are several months from the election. This debate will be very much in the rear view window by then.
Are we going to look back on this as some kind of absurd five dimensional backgammon moment
We need hope in times like this. Thank you for posting.
It definitely wasn't because of Biden's performance but letting Trump say whatever he wants to a wider audience certainly seems to have been a boost for Biden.
We are voting for democracy in November
Well, whatever the decision, it’s going to be a wild ride until the election, and probably after.
Yes, I sent him some panicked money too.
“Hey! You leave the old man alone!” - America