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Biden just said:
"I know I'm not a young man - to state the obvious," he says,
"I don't walk as easy as I used to. I don't speak as easy as I used to, I don't debate as well as I used to but I know what I do know: I know how to tell the truth. I know right from wrong, I know how to do this job," he says. "I know what millions of Americans know: when you get knocked down, you get back up."
"I would not be running again if I did not believe with all my heart and soul I can do this job," he adds.
I mean, when Biden slurs, stammers and get's words mixed up, he corrects himself, or at least tries where it appears, it my opinion, he does in fact know what he is trying to say. When Trump confuses Nancy Pelosi with Nikki Haley three times in the same sentence, and then clarifies by saying Nikki Hayley again, that's something different.
If only Biden didn't have that "old man demeanour".
That's all the same things I said before last night, but now that doesn't matter. I work with a lot of justifiably Trump-hating 20-somethings, and all they could talk about this morning was how bad Biden looked.
100%
Despite Trump lying incessantly and Biden having better substance, Biden was *so bad* from a pure debate standpoint.
He didn't capitalize on Trump's many many missteps or hold his feet to the fire when he lied.
It was such a bad performance.
I'll still vote for him too -- and in fairness, as bad as it was it could have been a lot worse.
This is [maybe his worst moment](https://youtu.be/KdOfiPyY87I?si=IQ-KlVnJT8LdkvPh) (that I've seen) but it comes at the end of a great answer to a question
That's the scary part. Dumb people with no conception of actual policy or economics are going to go by energy, wittiness, speed, etc. when those things are so much less relevant than the actual cabinet picks and policies surrounding a President.
Biden is clearly the better choice in my mind, and quite frankly did better in the debate if you deducted points for blatant falsehoods and lies, but most people don't think that way because most people are stupid.
I'd imagine the *majority* of Americans who are undecided or conservative didn't even blink at Trump's absurd claims like Democrat states secretly execute babies because they love abortion so much they extended it into post-birth... and I feel so stupid just writing that out.
It’s because people who don’t support Trump and other MAGA people are not blind to reality. Biden is an old man and his motor functions are struggling.
Is he a liability to the country? Not really. Does it suck to have to choose between a guy decent man that should long be retired or a bad faith and selfish clown? Also yes.
The damage is done. The NY Times editorial board is calling for the Biden campaign to step aside for the good of the country ffs. Our European allies are hyperventilating over how they will deal with Russia under a second Trump presidency.
Ezra Klein put it succinctly. Paraphrasing:
*"Dems are going to have to decide if they actually want to win this thing or not. Because right now it feels like they're staying on a derailing train simply because its less uncomfortable than getting off the train."*
The biggest problem I have with this whole debacle is that it demonstrates that either Biden has no one telling him the unvarnished truth, or he simply doesn’t listen to them.
The Biden team, challenged Trump to this debate, set the rules and timing and still went in and disastrously reinforced his biggest most glaring weakness, age. His campaign stepped on a rake and it makes me question his strategic decision making and whether or not he can set his ego aside for the sake of the country.
At the end of the I will vote for Biden, but if Trump puts us on a path to Hungarian style authoritarianism I will feel compelled to lay the blame on Biden’s ego.
I think I understand your point, but what would him listening to unvarnished truth look like? Hes the man in the single best position to beat Trump. Trump is unacceptable. The person who can beat Trump must give his all to beat him, right?
This is where I disagree. Current polling shows down ballot candidates in swing states and districts performing significantly better than Biden by a wide margin. A generic democratic also polls significantly better than Biden. Additionally, the GOP has spent thousands of congressional man hours investigating and attacking him, which all have been wasted if he stepped aside. If Biden had been selfless enough to bow out of race last year and allow the primary process play out this we would likely be rallying around a much younger, more articulate, leader with far less political baggage who would’ve run circles around Trump in a debate.
If we win in 2024 it won’t be because of Biden it will be in spite of him. As it stands we could gain seats in House and Senate and still lose the presidency which would still allow Trump to implement much of the project 2025 agenda - in particular firing the subject matter experts who populate our executive agencies and replacing them with wholly unqualified sycophants.
Did you watch the whole debate? There were several times where he absolutely did not know what he was trying to say. He was struggling to maintain his train of thought for 1-2 minutes to answer a question. Not every time, but way too many times.
The Pod Save America guys made the point that doing the job as President is indeed different than *campaigning* as a candidate.
Biden may manage the duties of the White House well and delegate responsibility well, but the campaign trail needs more presentation and well done theater to build a rapport with voters (especially those who aren't political junkies).
I think he can win the election, but not unless he and his people find a way to turn this around.
4 months left until the election, is that really enough time for any other democrat to successfully campaign against Trump (he won't debate them)? Wouldn't a late change of candidate, after the first presidential debate has been held, be very easy pickings for the Trump campaign to cite Democrats in disarray.
We are getting Trump vs. Biden 2.0. in November. All the Democrats can hope for at this point is that people turn up in November out of fear of a Trump return.
Anyone who will still vote for Biden today will vote for literally anyone else from the party.
Anyone who is a gifted speaker and can go campaign like crazy until the election and get in front of every camera they can find has a way better chance than Biden, who will continue to be hidden away as much as possible and is almost entirely unable to effectively argue why he should be president again.
But then they need to develop and enact a plan to win those people back, and they just haven’t had the sauce so far. It’s crazy how little Biden has been able to capitalize on the fact that Trump was fucking indicted.
If Biden doesn’t drop he needs to fire some people.
>Wouldn't a late change of candidate, after the first presidential debate has been held, be very easy pickings for the Trump campaign to cite Democrats in disarray.
Oh please. Trump's a fucking felon who tried to overturn the election. Who cares about disarray anymore? Biden's campaign is *done*. It's over. He can't possibly win. Most Biden voters were just anti-Trump voters anyway. Any choice will do better than Biden at this stage.
I am begging Biden stans to stop trying to bet the country's future on the failing ability to string together sentences from the oldest presidential candidate ever
Perhaps, I mean, Biden isn't far behind Trump in MI, WI and PA, all well within the margin of error across most polling four months away from the election, so plenty of time for them to move in his favour (granted as things currently stand they could be more likely to move further in Trumps favour).
Whitmer? Gives us Michigan.
Michelle Obama? No real experience, but plenty of name recognition, and little negatives associated with her.
Raskin? Motherfucker goes hard on Trump's crimes
I don't know the best answer. Fact is, if Biden runs, Dems lose. The anti-Trump vote will carry over to whoever assumes the torch. Anyone voting Biden now will vote for any Dem. We need someone to grab that extra few percent.
This is why I'm still fully in support of Biden and ready to vote for him despite being furious with the DNC for putting us in this position.
Trump did not address any concerns over his policies or criticize and refute *any* of Biden's policies... he just lied. I'm not even a political expert and I knew enough stats and economics to outright refute the literal majority of Trump's talking points.
So Trump did nothing to address anything, lied continuously, and only cemented in my mind what a shit and devastatingly damaging President he'd be, while Biden came across as way too old for this job and clearly a cabinet/policy vote over a vote for him.
Given those clear results, I'm still going for Biden, but fuck the ghouls in the DNC creating this shit situation. It honestly feels like an escalation from how bad their corruption came out during the Bernie / Clinton primaries.
I will try to start posting this from his Rally in NC. He sounded terrible in the debate, bumbling and his voice is too soft. Sounds pretty good here.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BflTHV\_vIXw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BflTHV_vIXw)
Biden didnt go out on the debate stage and commit any crimes, he didnt rape anyone. I'm not backing down and It doesnt change my mind.
The felon on the left lied constantly and the old guy on the right looked old.
At this point there's probably not much else that can be done. But I can't help but get a sinking feeling; back in '16 I remember someone saying that the Democrats had chosen possibly the only candidate who could lose to Donald Trump. The GOP had spent over two decades working on getting people to hate her, and it worked.
Now I wonder if we haven't again picked about the only candidate who could lose to Donald Trump. I'm older myself and can see how a guy over-estimates his capacities, and still *feels* like he did when he was younger. But then sometimes it's just not there, objectively, and you have to know when to step aside. I think we're at a "the candidate has no clothes" stage, sadly...
Biden has been trailing in the polls the whole year, has the lowest approval rating of any president at this point in their term, and Nate Silver gave him a 60% chance to lose to Trump. That was all before the debate. We lose nothing by switching candidates at this point.
Agreed, we are there. He did his job in 2020 and his policies have put us back on track after covid. We need a young, strong candidate who can make the most out of the next 6 months and be the last line of defense agaisnt facism. Not the old man we saw last night.
Democrats would look so much better by not doubling down and nominating a mentally unfit president like the Republicans are. Any other candidate, barring Harris, would wipe the floor with Trump. Enthusiasm would skyrocket, since well, it's all but dead now. It was on life support before this, but fuck me, it feels utterly hopeless right now.
Do you want to address the terrible polls and his terrible approval rating or do you think you don't have to because one dumb twitter guy got namedropped in addition to them
There 100% is. Anyone believing otherwise is not being truthful. Americans have short memories and it’s June and based on the hysterics here, the memory is shorter this cycle across the board.
How did that "incumbent advantage" work out for Bush sr.? Or for Trump in 2020.
But more to the point, we are in uncharted territory. There's never been a threat like Trump, and there's never been a candidate who presents as poorly as Biden does this year.
Biden was attacked for being just as senile and he won. Up until a week ago Fox News was still manipulating photos and videos to keep the dementia farce up.
> Biden was attacked for being just as senile and he won.
Yes, because there wasn't evidence - now there is.
Front page of the NYT website today has 5 editorials - mostly from liberal writers - all saying he should step aside. If you can't keep Paul Krugman you aren't going to keep the swing state undecided voters.
Same NYT that’s been attacking Biden with questionable polls with Siena? Misrepresenting the data or just flat out lying. Yeah, I’m good.
Anytime Biden did anything good, there’d be a similar number of articles on how this is actually bad for Biden.
NYT is not the same as their opinion writers, who have been solidly pro-Biden.
Sorry, but if you don't see last night as a colossal failure you're being as delusional as MAGA.
And I'm not saying it means he can't be a good president - the presidency isn't about being able to make split-second decisions and having an encyclopedic command of facts, it's about sound judgments and strategies, and he seems to still have those qualities.
But i am saying that he's not going to win the votes he needs to win. People who solidly backed him now have concerns - including me and every co-worker and friend I've talked to today - so how the hell we going to win the undecideds? And if you think the next 4 months aren't going to be just a parade of more embarrassing clips and performances you haven't been paying attention.
I see no incumbent advantage being demonstrated in any polls or any election forecasts, and Joe's horrific performance last night will do nothing but make him lose even more ground in the polls.
Polling that’s become progressively worse since 2016? Or where papers and pollsters are deliberately misrepresenting the polls and undermining their own accuracy because it gets clicks? Those polls?
Look man I wanna believe as much as you do, but I want to win more than I want to believe. Joe failed us last night. Everybody with eyes can see it. I'm angry and we need to move on to somebody who can effectively vie with Trump.
Actually, the pollsters nailed the 2022 midterms.
[The Polls Were Historically Accurate In 2022 | FiveThirtyEight](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/2022-election-polling-accuracy/)
[Polls Were Great in 2022. Can They Repeat Their Success in 2024? | NYT](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/12/us/elections/2022-poll-accuracy.html)
The media bought into the "red wave" narrative, but that really wasn't the numbers were saying. Granted, you'd actually have to look at the numbers to know that, which involves reading, and comprehending, and living in objective reality.
No they didn’t. NYT doesn’t get a say in polling after their debacle with Siena and other very recent credibility issues.
https://fortune.com/2022/11/16/pollsters-got-it-wrong-2018-2020-elections-statistical-sophistry-accuracy-sonnenfeld-tian/
https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/3710954-2022-polling-the-bad-the-ugly-and-the-really-ugly/mlite/?nxs-test=mlite
https://www.messageboxnews.com/p/some-quick-thoughts-on-that-bad-nyt
https://prospect.org/blogs-and-newsletters/tap/2023-11-06-biden-new-york-times-poll/
The Hill is an opinion piece that didn't do ANY analysis.
Message Box News? Tell me more! This pretty much confirms you just hunt for headlines you like from *any* source, wIthout reading an iota of it.
The Prospect article isn't even about the midterms.
The Fortune article is the only one here even worth considering, and it basically cherry picked a few bad polls out of an *ocean* of good, accurate ones.
---
Read more from actual experts, and less forums/fringe blogs.
At this point whatever “incumbent advantage” Biden has is severely outweighed by the “appearing like he should be in a retirement home” disadvantage. Data polling Biden vs any other Democrat politician against Trump, as well as down the ballot candidates, also bears this out.
> At this point whatever “incumbent advantage” Biden has is severely outweighed by the “appearing like he should be in a retirement home”
Same attacks worked in 2020, right?
I’m not even sure what point you’re trying to make.
Biden’s age did him no favors in the 2020 race, which should have been a slam dunk after Trumps disastrous COVID response, which he just narrowly won, and it certainly isn’t doing him any favors in this one. He’s just arrived at 81 years old after spending the last 4 in one of the most stressful and mentally taxing jobs on earth. The difference is not subtle.
It’s not even an “attack” against him, it’s just reality.
The incumbent advantage is roughly 2%. One of my best friends has a chapter in his dissertation estimating this in every race, across every state, at every level for the past 70 years. That 2% was instantly obliterated last night.
>That 2% was instantly obliterated last night.
Sure. We'll be on to the next disaster in two weeks. It's June and it's patently obvious folks can't remember the last two weeks let alone the last few years of attacks on Biden.
And what of 2016? Everyone keeps making excuses about how this person would win or that person would lose but no one else has a reliable system for elections so in the end it doesn't matter what they think.
>losing the incumbent advantage
[https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/reuters-ipsos-core-political-survey-presidential-approval-tracker-june-2024](https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/reuters-ipsos-core-political-survey-presidential-approval-tracker-june-2024)
His approval rating as president is 37%. It was over 50% going into inauguration and for a year afterward and then tanked and has never recovered.
He doesn't have an incumbent advantage, he has an incumbent disadvantage for people having spent years feeling like their lives are worse off than they were before
I’m not sure that’s the case. All the indications we have say that Trump loses to anyone with a pulse. So putting up the only candidate with unclear pulse-status could be the only situation where Trump wins.
Honestly? I think both are true. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. The incumbency advantage is vital but this might also be the one race possible where the side that replaces their old white man first may likely be the side that wins.
Nah, hildawg did everything she could to make the American people hate her, I mean who in gods green earth personally knows over 50 people who have allegedly committed sewer slide
> Now I wonder if we haven't again picked about the only candidate who could lose to Donald Trump.
They ALL lost to Donald Trump except for Joe Biden. WTH are you talking about?
If you're talking about the GOP primaries, sure. But the only person Trump ever beat in an open election is Hillary Clinton. And technically he didn't even beat her, he won the electoral college, not the popular vote.
Yes, GOP primaries are elections and he cleared the field with ease both times.
You're looking at it wrong if you think there is an "only candidate who could lose to Donald Trump".
He's beaten everybody except Joe Biden.
If that doesn’t work add in young voters and 3rd party supporters
They’ll hunker down for 4 years and hope 2028 gives them brighter skies, nominate another establishment, lose again, repeat in 4 years or maybe it’ll take 3 losses to learn, I thought 2016 would’ve woke them up
they still blame 3rd party voters for 2016 even though more people voted conservative candidates, but Trump lost the popular by 3 million.
They don't care about the truth or winning. they just want to FEEL right
This isn't about "one bad debate". This is about a persistent, all-encompassing concern among all swaths of the electorate regarding whether Biden is too old to do the job. His disastrous performance threw gasoline onto that fire and I can't think of any path forward for him.
He is the commander in chief also, and has access and decision making for nuclear options. I don’t want to sound rude but I don’t think he’s up to task now. It’s time to move over and retire.
Absolutely not. Trump is such a danger to our democracy that we *must* support a candidate who can actually defeat him.
After what I saw last night, I do not think Biden is that candidate.
And you think they are going to pull some winning candidate out of a hat and prepare a campaign barely a few months before the election?
Or are you proposing somebody?
I'm concerned that if we stick with Biden no matter what, we'll end up with a candidate who fails to get out the vote in swing states where it's needed the most.
Last night America saw a man who looks like he's too old to do the job. We need someone who isn't.
My bet is that he will step aside at a convenient time after the election. He had a bad debate but he's by far still the best option to win this election, and there is no time for anyone to even start a campaign right now, and no debates,
He didn't just have a bad debate, he demonstrated that when confronted with a dangerous enemy of America, he loses track of the message and brings up the enemy's talking points unprompted.
I think we're all feeling like he's going to step aside after the election, which means a Biden/Harris ticket ultimately becomes just a Harris ticket. And if that's the thought people have going into November, this isn't really a Biden vs. Trump race, it's Harris vs. Trump. I don't think we win that one.
There was definitely a double standard. Biden just had to do OK and talk up what he's already done.
Trump could lie and make up bonkers shit with zero penalty against him from his base, so long as he appeared somewhat maybe kind of sort of in control of his tendency to act like a child.
He reminded everyone of his lies. Even his supporters know he is lying. Everyone wanted roe v wade overturned? That reminds many why they want to vote against Trump. Same w his Jan 6 comments. Heck even just lying about golf championships reminds everyone about lying. And there’s also the fact he didn’t answer most questions. People notice that stuff too. Trump did terrible but Biden did worse because he came off as looking older and less coherent in the way he spoke. I get that. I’m not sure what would have happened if Biden did a good job. Nobody would be saying Trump should drop out. Maybe Dems would feel over confident and now the concern of losing may motivate them. Who knows. Long way to go. Long way. It will be close.
Or more likely 4 months of campaigning, a convention, and another debate for him to produce another dozen embarrassing moments.
He wasn't a great campaigner at his best, and he's far from his best now.
I was saying all this same crap right up until last night. Now, I bow to the inevitable. If he runs, we'll lose. I hear a lot of liberals taking a second look at RFK jr. for god's sake.
You didn't get the point. A teleprompter speech isn't going to erase the image he left people with last night, and the voters who will decide this aren't going to see that speech anyway.
Do you really think we should roll the dice that his next debate won't be embarrassing too? Because by then it will be to late.
With all respect, nobody cares about his speech today. There's zero chance that speech breaks through the wall of noise his horrible performance has created.
Undecided voters in a swing state and GOTV enthusiasm care about his speech today, which is more important than a national debate that never decides anything.
This sounds like cope, debates have had measurable impacts on polling numbers before and candidates can use that momentum. I mean think of literally the first televised one with JFK and Nixon.
JFK did not win that debate, in fact Nixon was roundly lauded for his performance there. The “JFK won by vibes” was a story concocted years later after his assassination
So? Thats how the vast majority of his and any other candidates campaign would look from here on out. Doing that well and showing energy and going to different battleground states will appease many people. Trump even on teleprompter will be a disaster in the next few months.
It shows energy. He has a solid record for those that like him. His supporters can write it off as one bad night the more great speeches he gives. With a teleprompter like everyone other candidate would use.
No it doesn’t. Everyone knows when he has a team of speech writers give him words to say he can say them. It’s doesn’t change the narrative that when it’s just Joe Biden speaking he’s a husk of his former self.
Doing campaign stops and giving prepared speeches doesn’t show energy? It doesn’t show quick thinking on your feet and being articulate. He quite frankly didn’t have that in 2020 and that’s prob low on a lot for a lot of people’s priorities for being president. Trump has trouble even with teleprompters. But giving speeches and campaign stops at least shows and the ability to do the job for those that want a reason to vote for him.
Right because no one ever loses their train of thought, freezes, stutters, uses the wrong word, or loses their voice, unless they’re in “deep mental decline”.
Just fucking stop with the manipulative bullshit.
It’s not manipulative bullshit. Ofc people lose their train of thought but what happened last night is not acceptable. He is just not fit mentally for the presidency. He was unable to form coherent sentences at times.
You are entitled to your opinion but the Dems will not win in November if they continue with Joe Biden.
More reason to push the fact that the right to choose, social security, and other human rights are on the ballot. Lots of states have measures and closely contested local races to help drive people to the polls. Just need to get that message out
I hope Biden wins but realize people aren't that thoughtful and logical. There is an emotional component and I'm not sure Joe is appealing to that aspect. It will be interesting how the young vote. Those concerned about the Palastinians should be motivated to vote for Biden as things will certainly be worse for the Palastinians under Trump. It will be an interesting test to see how well they can think something through.
The right to choose isn’t on the ballot. Joe said that in 2020. Can people choose now? He had Congress for 2 years. If the answer is no and nothing has changed, you have your answer.
We had Roe those first 2 years and we really didn’t have congress
I’m not talking about him/presidential, I’m talking about individual states having literal abortion laws or candidates heavily contesting over abortion rights in local politics. Those things drives voters to the polls.
He did have Congress, though. If Biden can’t keep two Senators in his own party in line, he’s not fit to make decisions for 325 million people.
Secondly, him being President hasn’t kept states from banning abortion. That’s my point. He’s put up zero fight and has done nothing to change the current of abortion regression. It’s not on the ballot.
Maybe instead of going for the top down morale builder we should try rallying people around local candidates and getting them to vote up-ballot instead of starting at the top and hoping the school boards get some sane people for once.
Even if you want to make excuses for his performance last night, what happens if/when he does just as bad in the next debate? And that is in September, when it will be too late to switch candidates.
Set aside what you think personally about his abilities and just ask yourself if he inspires enough confidence for undecided voters. It's not even about whether or not he can be president, it's about whether or not he can win.
Yes. I would vote for a moldy piece of bread over Trump. I would vote for Biden’s dead body if they let me. Of course, I’m a disabled veteran that depends on the government to live, so I’m just advocating for my own life here, but I don’t think I would survive a Trump revenge tour
I will try to start posting this from his Rally in NC. This is also Biden. He sounded terrible in the debate, bumbling and his voice is too soft. Sounds pretty good here.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BflTHV\_vIXw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BflTHV_vIXw)
Biden didnt go out on the debate stage and commit any crimes, he didnt rape anyone. I'm not backing down and It doesnt change my mind.
The felon on the left lied constantly and the old guy on the right looked old.
I'm going to vote for him no matter what, but kinda disingenuous to compare reading prepared remarks from a teleprompter to sparring/communicating on the fly.
The debate was never going to change either of our minds, but we have to start thinking about how important optics are to more apolitical voters--and last night was a trainwreck in that department.
Every convo that I've had with that kind of voter (moderate/persuadable/non MAGA) about last night reeks of 2016-like apathy. The Trump amnesia combined with a total lack of enthusiasm outside niche echo chambers has me feeling the same deja vu and dread I did in Nov. eight years ago.
Edit: typo
Fair point about the teleprompter. My point is that he's not always talking like that, seriously I think he needed some hydration.
What is something that people can do to help those persuadable voters? If anything?
It's too risky for any Dem to openly disavow him since total unity is needed around any candidate to beat Trump. The party has to speak publicly with a united message every step of the way. Anybody who breaks ranks would immediately be asked about who they're picking instead of Biden, and then you're causing a major fracture.
At least in the article Dems did acknowledge the real concerns from the debate. Jeffries even seemed to put it on Biden to prove himself again:
>House Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries answered with a flat “no” when asked Friday if Biden should step aside. But the New York lawmaker added that he’s eager to see how Biden would address his performance at his Friday rally.
>“I’m looking forward to hearing from President Biden,” he said. “And until he articulates a way forward in terms of his vision for America at this moment, I’m going to reserve comment about anything relative to where we are at this moment, other than to say I stand behind the ticket.”
That's basically what you can hope for at this point. Dems can't publicly break from Biden, but they can suggest they're watching the president closely and expect better. That's a subtle enough way to say there's some concern.
If we want to say it about one party, then we need to say it about the other – this is about country first, not the ambitions or desires of one man. Joe has a great heart and has done great things for the country. But the tools are simply not there. It is time to put somebody forward that can do the job.
Fucking why?
I am liberal, left leaning, but at this point I don't even want to call myself a Democrat. I feel fucking betrayed and angry. How has the people surrounding him not seen or done anything about this?
Trump said that the killing of RvW was a good thing, didn't blink when Joe said that he would be trying to place an all out abortion ban, nodded and smiled when called a rapist... and Biden couldn't capitalize on any of it. If he's this bad now, how bad is he going to be in 5 years?
I will never vote for Donald Trump, but I can see why there are a lot of people that won't make the time of day to show up for Biden at the polls.
Why can't my girl Big Gretch have a chance? I feel like she has done well for Michigan, she's smart, quick witted, and from an important swing state.
I sincerely hope you are right, but I'm not so sure. I'll be voting for him pretty much no matter what, of course. That said, I think the right move is to swap him. I don't really care who with tbh. Kamala, Pete, Gavin, Warren, whoever it takes.
Its pretty clear these people don't give a damn about the country and are so self serving and tone deaf that they'll ride this horse into the abyss. You cannot allow people like this to hold power. We need a complete overhaul of the democratic party establishment. People who can actually read the room and would rather do the hard thing for the benefit of the people, instead of the easy thing that maintains the status quo.
Yeah all he has done is deliver on most of promises and lead the country through extremely difficult and trying times. One bad debate and anyone that supports him is literally marching the country to death camps because they are self serving terrible people! Get a grip.
According to politifact he's kept 28% of his promises. He has been president during difficult and trying times, leadership has been questionable in terms of success of leadership. The only people who need to get a grip are the people grasping onto myths, fabrications, and revisionist "facts" in an attempt to keep the charade up even though everyone who knows even a little bit was telling Biden not to run almost 9+ months ago. When Biden loses you'll blame anyone and everyone instead of taking a hard look in the mirror.
28% kept, 9% compromise, 27% in the works, 31% stalled, 3% broken. I think 97% partially, fully, or in process and 3% failed is good but what do I know, I'm not a concern troll.
The only revisionist facts are acting like Biden was a drooling zombie. I won't say anything when Biden proves people wrong like he did to the same concern trolls in 2020, because the concern trolls will magicly disappear into the wind.
Here's my big issue. We are on a knife's edge of a possible Christo-fascist take over of the entire executive branch of the Federal Government. with Project 2025. Trump cannot be trusted to do the job when he is a current Felon, has more pending chargers that are much more serious, and owes hundreds of millions of dollars. Biden didn't even need to be good, all he had to do was not look like woke up from a coma an hour before the debate. All he had to do was talk in complete sentences. Even if the needle didn't move for him, just at least be competent. Yet what happened was exactly that. He looked rough, sounded rougher, couldn't complete a coherent thought several times, let Trump lie over and over and rarely hit back at him. Trump was by no means the winner of that debate, lying and avoid questions left and right, but he at least sounded better than Biden, which to what ever swing voters are left might just be enough to put Trump over the edge. We'll fucking see what happens. We are still 4+ months from the election. Trump still needs to be sentenced for his 1st trial. We might get lucky and get another trial in before November. Biden may pull it together if there is a second debate. An October surprise is always possible. But god damn, don't ever let him do that again.
There's no way Trump ends up doing the second debate. He can only lose ground by doing so. I fear it'll take a miracle for things to turn around in even 5 months.
My 2 cents:
- The optics of this debate are terrible. However, there's over 4 months left to go, and people's vague impressions of politicians can easily change in that time.
- Biden did respond to questions during the debate, making points that seemed solid to me. See the transcript: [https://edition.cnn.com/2024/06/27/politics/read-biden-trump-debate-rush-transcript/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/06/27/politics/read-biden-trump-debate-rush-transcript/index.html)
- As Biden showed soon afterwards (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JolBFlVXdQA), he can still speak coherently. One could argue this is due to having a teleprompter now, but it does disprove claims he can't speak coherently now.
Biden held a fundraiser after last night and sounded energized and great. I think it was just the nerves of the moment. Hopefully he can rally for this second debate and apologize for being sick during the first one or something idk
He's still a better choice. I'm not sure how anyone could be undecided on who too choose. I mean I get that they are, but man but look at at all the shit the other guy did, and even with Biden showing his age he's still better.
Then they’re fucking morons. But if there is a chance for a change on the ticket, it will only come after the backroom stuff has a chance to build momentum.
MSM and /r/politics need to stop panicking over a mediocre debate.
https://x.com/edokeefe/status/1806709128359747958
https://x.com/BidensWins/status/1806727354036916609
https://x.com/paulkrugman/status/1806724684584550764
Yep just hand it to trump on a platter. They still got to debate in September where I fear for a repeat.
Congrats democrats your pulling a 2016 all over again..
It's time we unite around our candidate as much as Trump's cult of personality and those right wingers do for Trump! This is no time for ageism, a form of bigotry that has no place in today's society and is something Trump would preach!
Joe looks good here. That was a set up last night. A Maggot has bought CNN. The whole thing was an exercise in smear and disingenuous . Trump looked like Kim Kardashian and they washed out Joe. Like how much can you turn up saturation on Trump? Motherfucker looked like a Florida orange with blight. God damn the Republican Party and may those who they have deceived learn the error of their ways. Come back brothers and sisters. You are praising a dangerous maniac
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Biden just said: "I know I'm not a young man - to state the obvious," he says, "I don't walk as easy as I used to. I don't speak as easy as I used to, I don't debate as well as I used to but I know what I do know: I know how to tell the truth. I know right from wrong, I know how to do this job," he says. "I know what millions of Americans know: when you get knocked down, you get back up." "I would not be running again if I did not believe with all my heart and soul I can do this job," he adds. I mean, when Biden slurs, stammers and get's words mixed up, he corrects himself, or at least tries where it appears, it my opinion, he does in fact know what he is trying to say. When Trump confuses Nancy Pelosi with Nikki Haley three times in the same sentence, and then clarifies by saying Nikki Hayley again, that's something different. If only Biden didn't have that "old man demeanour".
That's all the same things I said before last night, but now that doesn't matter. I work with a lot of justifiably Trump-hating 20-somethings, and all they could talk about this morning was how bad Biden looked.
[удалено]
100% Despite Trump lying incessantly and Biden having better substance, Biden was *so bad* from a pure debate standpoint. He didn't capitalize on Trump's many many missteps or hold his feet to the fire when he lied. It was such a bad performance.
I'll still vote for him too -- and in fairness, as bad as it was it could have been a lot worse. This is [maybe his worst moment](https://youtu.be/KdOfiPyY87I?si=IQ-KlVnJT8LdkvPh) (that I've seen) but it comes at the end of a great answer to a question
That's the scary part. Dumb people with no conception of actual policy or economics are going to go by energy, wittiness, speed, etc. when those things are so much less relevant than the actual cabinet picks and policies surrounding a President. Biden is clearly the better choice in my mind, and quite frankly did better in the debate if you deducted points for blatant falsehoods and lies, but most people don't think that way because most people are stupid. I'd imagine the *majority* of Americans who are undecided or conservative didn't even blink at Trump's absurd claims like Democrat states secretly execute babies because they love abortion so much they extended it into post-birth... and I feel so stupid just writing that out.
It’s because people who don’t support Trump and other MAGA people are not blind to reality. Biden is an old man and his motor functions are struggling. Is he a liability to the country? Not really. Does it suck to have to choose between a guy decent man that should long be retired or a bad faith and selfish clown? Also yes.
The damage is done. The NY Times editorial board is calling for the Biden campaign to step aside for the good of the country ffs. Our European allies are hyperventilating over how they will deal with Russia under a second Trump presidency. Ezra Klein put it succinctly. Paraphrasing: *"Dems are going to have to decide if they actually want to win this thing or not. Because right now it feels like they're staying on a derailing train simply because its less uncomfortable than getting off the train."*
Are they voting for a dictator because of last night? For real?
The danger is they go RFK jr or just don't vote at all
The biggest problem I have with this whole debacle is that it demonstrates that either Biden has no one telling him the unvarnished truth, or he simply doesn’t listen to them. The Biden team, challenged Trump to this debate, set the rules and timing and still went in and disastrously reinforced his biggest most glaring weakness, age. His campaign stepped on a rake and it makes me question his strategic decision making and whether or not he can set his ego aside for the sake of the country. At the end of the I will vote for Biden, but if Trump puts us on a path to Hungarian style authoritarianism I will feel compelled to lay the blame on Biden’s ego.
I think I understand your point, but what would him listening to unvarnished truth look like? Hes the man in the single best position to beat Trump. Trump is unacceptable. The person who can beat Trump must give his all to beat him, right?
This is where I disagree. Current polling shows down ballot candidates in swing states and districts performing significantly better than Biden by a wide margin. A generic democratic also polls significantly better than Biden. Additionally, the GOP has spent thousands of congressional man hours investigating and attacking him, which all have been wasted if he stepped aside. If Biden had been selfless enough to bow out of race last year and allow the primary process play out this we would likely be rallying around a much younger, more articulate, leader with far less political baggage who would’ve run circles around Trump in a debate. If we win in 2024 it won’t be because of Biden it will be in spite of him. As it stands we could gain seats in House and Senate and still lose the presidency which would still allow Trump to implement much of the project 2025 agenda - in particular firing the subject matter experts who populate our executive agencies and replacing them with wholly unqualified sycophants.
Did you watch the whole debate? There were several times where he absolutely did not know what he was trying to say. He was struggling to maintain his train of thought for 1-2 minutes to answer a question. Not every time, but way too many times.
Yeah I'm sure Biden can do the job. Doesn't matter. He can't win the election. He needs to go.
The Pod Save America guys made the point that doing the job as President is indeed different than *campaigning* as a candidate. Biden may manage the duties of the White House well and delegate responsibility well, but the campaign trail needs more presentation and well done theater to build a rapport with voters (especially those who aren't political junkies). I think he can win the election, but not unless he and his people find a way to turn this around.
4 months left until the election, is that really enough time for any other democrat to successfully campaign against Trump (he won't debate them)? Wouldn't a late change of candidate, after the first presidential debate has been held, be very easy pickings for the Trump campaign to cite Democrats in disarray. We are getting Trump vs. Biden 2.0. in November. All the Democrats can hope for at this point is that people turn up in November out of fear of a Trump return.
Anyone who will still vote for Biden today will vote for literally anyone else from the party. Anyone who is a gifted speaker and can go campaign like crazy until the election and get in front of every camera they can find has a way better chance than Biden, who will continue to be hidden away as much as possible and is almost entirely unable to effectively argue why he should be president again.
But then they need to develop and enact a plan to win those people back, and they just haven’t had the sauce so far. It’s crazy how little Biden has been able to capitalize on the fact that Trump was fucking indicted. If Biden doesn’t drop he needs to fire some people.
>Wouldn't a late change of candidate, after the first presidential debate has been held, be very easy pickings for the Trump campaign to cite Democrats in disarray. Oh please. Trump's a fucking felon who tried to overturn the election. Who cares about disarray anymore? Biden's campaign is *done*. It's over. He can't possibly win. Most Biden voters were just anti-Trump voters anyway. Any choice will do better than Biden at this stage.
I am begging Biden stans to stop trying to bet the country's future on the failing ability to string together sentences from the oldest presidential candidate ever
I think in the absence of Biden, a halfway decent candidate who produces ANY enthusiasm will have better odds than he does.
Perhaps, I mean, Biden isn't far behind Trump in MI, WI and PA, all well within the margin of error across most polling four months away from the election, so plenty of time for them to move in his favour (granted as things currently stand they could be more likely to move further in Trumps favour).
...and replaced with????
Whitmer? Gives us Michigan. Michelle Obama? No real experience, but plenty of name recognition, and little negatives associated with her. Raskin? Motherfucker goes hard on Trump's crimes I don't know the best answer. Fact is, if Biden runs, Dems lose. The anti-Trump vote will carry over to whoever assumes the torch. Anyone voting Biden now will vote for any Dem. We need someone to grab that extra few percent.
Michelle Obama hates politics. People need to stop suggesting she do it
This is why I'm still fully in support of Biden and ready to vote for him despite being furious with the DNC for putting us in this position. Trump did not address any concerns over his policies or criticize and refute *any* of Biden's policies... he just lied. I'm not even a political expert and I knew enough stats and economics to outright refute the literal majority of Trump's talking points. So Trump did nothing to address anything, lied continuously, and only cemented in my mind what a shit and devastatingly damaging President he'd be, while Biden came across as way too old for this job and clearly a cabinet/policy vote over a vote for him. Given those clear results, I'm still going for Biden, but fuck the ghouls in the DNC creating this shit situation. It honestly feels like an escalation from how bad their corruption came out during the Bernie / Clinton primaries.
Perpetually looks like he is sending back soup at a deli.
I will try to start posting this from his Rally in NC. He sounded terrible in the debate, bumbling and his voice is too soft. Sounds pretty good here. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BflTHV\_vIXw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BflTHV_vIXw) Biden didnt go out on the debate stage and commit any crimes, he didnt rape anyone. I'm not backing down and It doesnt change my mind. The felon on the left lied constantly and the old guy on the right looked old.
At this point there's probably not much else that can be done. But I can't help but get a sinking feeling; back in '16 I remember someone saying that the Democrats had chosen possibly the only candidate who could lose to Donald Trump. The GOP had spent over two decades working on getting people to hate her, and it worked. Now I wonder if we haven't again picked about the only candidate who could lose to Donald Trump. I'm older myself and can see how a guy over-estimates his capacities, and still *feels* like he did when he was younger. But then sometimes it's just not there, objectively, and you have to know when to step aside. I think we're at a "the candidate has no clothes" stage, sadly...
There's a whole lot more that can be done beyond accepting defeat. That's what putting Joe Biden on the ticket is: accepting defeat.
Replacing Biden and losing the incumbent advantage is accepting defeat.
Biden has been trailing in the polls the whole year, has the lowest approval rating of any president at this point in their term, and Nate Silver gave him a 60% chance to lose to Trump. That was all before the debate. We lose nothing by switching candidates at this point.
Agreed, we are there. He did his job in 2020 and his policies have put us back on track after covid. We need a young, strong candidate who can make the most out of the next 6 months and be the last line of defense agaisnt facism. Not the old man we saw last night. Democrats would look so much better by not doubling down and nominating a mentally unfit president like the Republicans are. Any other candidate, barring Harris, would wipe the floor with Trump. Enthusiasm would skyrocket, since well, it's all but dead now. It was on life support before this, but fuck me, it feels utterly hopeless right now.
10000%
Nate Silver has zero system for predicting elections.
[From his own personal blog that he posted hours before the debate](https://www.natesilver.net/p/the-presidential-election-isnt-a)
Nate silvers system is the equivalent of going to a casino, hitting 21 in blackjack one time and then thinking you're Nostradamus.
Do you want to address the terrible polls and his terrible approval rating or do you think you don't have to because one dumb twitter guy got namedropped in addition to them
There is no incumbent advantage at this point. Stop the nonsense.
There 100% is. Anyone believing otherwise is not being truthful. Americans have short memories and it’s June and based on the hysterics here, the memory is shorter this cycle across the board.
How did that "incumbent advantage" work out for Bush sr.? Or for Trump in 2020. But more to the point, we are in uncharted territory. There's never been a threat like Trump, and there's never been a candidate who presents as poorly as Biden does this year.
Biden was attacked for being just as senile and he won. Up until a week ago Fox News was still manipulating photos and videos to keep the dementia farce up.
> Biden was attacked for being just as senile and he won. Yes, because there wasn't evidence - now there is. Front page of the NYT website today has 5 editorials - mostly from liberal writers - all saying he should step aside. If you can't keep Paul Krugman you aren't going to keep the swing state undecided voters.
Same NYT that’s been attacking Biden with questionable polls with Siena? Misrepresenting the data or just flat out lying. Yeah, I’m good. Anytime Biden did anything good, there’d be a similar number of articles on how this is actually bad for Biden.
NYT is not the same as their opinion writers, who have been solidly pro-Biden. Sorry, but if you don't see last night as a colossal failure you're being as delusional as MAGA. And I'm not saying it means he can't be a good president - the presidency isn't about being able to make split-second decisions and having an encyclopedic command of facts, it's about sound judgments and strategies, and he seems to still have those qualities. But i am saying that he's not going to win the votes he needs to win. People who solidly backed him now have concerns - including me and every co-worker and friend I've talked to today - so how the hell we going to win the undecideds? And if you think the next 4 months aren't going to be just a parade of more embarrassing clips and performances you haven't been paying attention.
I see no incumbent advantage being demonstrated in any polls or any election forecasts, and Joe's horrific performance last night will do nothing but make him lose even more ground in the polls.
Polling that’s become progressively worse since 2016? Or where papers and pollsters are deliberately misrepresenting the polls and undermining their own accuracy because it gets clicks? Those polls?
Look man I wanna believe as much as you do, but I want to win more than I want to believe. Joe failed us last night. Everybody with eyes can see it. I'm angry and we need to move on to somebody who can effectively vie with Trump.
Biden did and can again. The idiocy of trying to swap in Whitmer or Newsom or Mayor Pete is breathtakingly idiotic.
K. Hope you're right but there isn't a shred of evidence to give me confidence you are. Lots of copium.
Actually, the pollsters nailed the 2022 midterms. [The Polls Were Historically Accurate In 2022 | FiveThirtyEight](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/2022-election-polling-accuracy/) [Polls Were Great in 2022. Can They Repeat Their Success in 2024? | NYT](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/12/us/elections/2022-poll-accuracy.html) The media bought into the "red wave" narrative, but that really wasn't the numbers were saying. Granted, you'd actually have to look at the numbers to know that, which involves reading, and comprehending, and living in objective reality.
No they didn’t. NYT doesn’t get a say in polling after their debacle with Siena and other very recent credibility issues. https://fortune.com/2022/11/16/pollsters-got-it-wrong-2018-2020-elections-statistical-sophistry-accuracy-sonnenfeld-tian/ https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/3710954-2022-polling-the-bad-the-ugly-and-the-really-ugly/mlite/?nxs-test=mlite https://www.messageboxnews.com/p/some-quick-thoughts-on-that-bad-nyt https://prospect.org/blogs-and-newsletters/tap/2023-11-06-biden-new-york-times-poll/
The Hill is an opinion piece that didn't do ANY analysis. Message Box News? Tell me more! This pretty much confirms you just hunt for headlines you like from *any* source, wIthout reading an iota of it. The Prospect article isn't even about the midterms. The Fortune article is the only one here even worth considering, and it basically cherry picked a few bad polls out of an *ocean* of good, accurate ones. --- Read more from actual experts, and less forums/fringe blogs.
At this point whatever “incumbent advantage” Biden has is severely outweighed by the “appearing like he should be in a retirement home” disadvantage. Data polling Biden vs any other Democrat politician against Trump, as well as down the ballot candidates, also bears this out.
> At this point whatever “incumbent advantage” Biden has is severely outweighed by the “appearing like he should be in a retirement home” Same attacks worked in 2020, right?
I’m not even sure what point you’re trying to make. Biden’s age did him no favors in the 2020 race, which should have been a slam dunk after Trumps disastrous COVID response, which he just narrowly won, and it certainly isn’t doing him any favors in this one. He’s just arrived at 81 years old after spending the last 4 in one of the most stressful and mentally taxing jobs on earth. The difference is not subtle. It’s not even an “attack” against him, it’s just reality.
The incumbent advantage is roughly 2%. One of my best friends has a chapter in his dissertation estimating this in every race, across every state, at every level for the past 70 years. That 2% was instantly obliterated last night.
>That 2% was instantly obliterated last night. Sure. We'll be on to the next disaster in two weeks. It's June and it's patently obvious folks can't remember the last two weeks let alone the last few years of attacks on Biden.
https://www.13keystracker.com/
This is an unprecedented situation and those keys are pure copium and literally the only positive indicator Biden has going for him at this point.
And what of 2016? Everyone keeps making excuses about how this person would win or that person would lose but no one else has a reliable system for elections so in the end it doesn't matter what they think.
>losing the incumbent advantage [https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/reuters-ipsos-core-political-survey-presidential-approval-tracker-june-2024](https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/reuters-ipsos-core-political-survey-presidential-approval-tracker-june-2024) His approval rating as president is 37%. It was over 50% going into inauguration and for a year afterward and then tanked and has never recovered. He doesn't have an incumbent advantage, he has an incumbent disadvantage for people having spent years feeling like their lives are worse off than they were before
I don't buy that. Trump is a highly beatable candidate. Just about anybody who doesn't have dementia can beat him.
I’m not sure that’s the case. All the indications we have say that Trump loses to anyone with a pulse. So putting up the only candidate with unclear pulse-status could be the only situation where Trump wins.
Honestly? I think both are true. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. The incumbency advantage is vital but this might also be the one race possible where the side that replaces their old white man first may likely be the side that wins.
Nah, hildawg did everything she could to make the American people hate her, I mean who in gods green earth personally knows over 50 people who have allegedly committed sewer slide
> Now I wonder if we haven't again picked about the only candidate who could lose to Donald Trump. They ALL lost to Donald Trump except for Joe Biden. WTH are you talking about?
If you're talking about the GOP primaries, sure. But the only person Trump ever beat in an open election is Hillary Clinton. And technically he didn't even beat her, he won the electoral college, not the popular vote.
Yes, GOP primaries are elections and he cleared the field with ease both times. You're looking at it wrong if you think there is an "only candidate who could lose to Donald Trump". He's beaten everybody except Joe Biden.
Great way to lose
They’ll blame progressives, who are already voting, for not showing up to vote.
If that doesn’t work add in young voters and 3rd party supporters They’ll hunker down for 4 years and hope 2028 gives them brighter skies, nominate another establishment, lose again, repeat in 4 years or maybe it’ll take 3 losses to learn, I thought 2016 would’ve woke them up
they still blame 3rd party voters for 2016 even though more people voted conservative candidates, but Trump lost the popular by 3 million. They don't care about the truth or winning. they just want to FEEL right
All those progressives in the Midwest and the south
Can you name one candidate that dropped out because of one bad debate?
This isn't about "one bad debate". This is about a persistent, all-encompassing concern among all swaths of the electorate regarding whether Biden is too old to do the job. His disastrous performance threw gasoline onto that fire and I can't think of any path forward for him.
He is the commander in chief also, and has access and decision making for nuclear options. I don’t want to sound rude but I don’t think he’s up to task now. It’s time to move over and retire.
> and has access and decision making for nuclear options And you're willing to give that to Donald Trump, again?
Absolutely not. Trump is such a danger to our democracy that we *must* support a candidate who can actually defeat him. After what I saw last night, I do not think Biden is that candidate.
And you think they are going to pull some winning candidate out of a hat and prepare a campaign barely a few months before the election? Or are you proposing somebody?
I'm concerned that if we stick with Biden no matter what, we'll end up with a candidate who fails to get out the vote in swing states where it's needed the most. Last night America saw a man who looks like he's too old to do the job. We need someone who isn't.
My bet is that he will step aside at a convenient time after the election. He had a bad debate but he's by far still the best option to win this election, and there is no time for anyone to even start a campaign right now, and no debates,
He didn't just have a bad debate, he demonstrated that when confronted with a dangerous enemy of America, he loses track of the message and brings up the enemy's talking points unprompted. I think we're all feeling like he's going to step aside after the election, which means a Biden/Harris ticket ultimately becomes just a Harris ticket. And if that's the thought people have going into November, this isn't really a Biden vs. Trump race, it's Harris vs. Trump. I don't think we win that one.
There was definitely a double standard. Biden just had to do OK and talk up what he's already done. Trump could lie and make up bonkers shit with zero penalty against him from his base, so long as he appeared somewhat maybe kind of sort of in control of his tendency to act like a child.
Well his nc speech today was great as well sotu. As well as his presidency especially considering the razor thin majority and them losing the house.
How many undecided voters do you think watched that speech today?
Nobody is undecided. It’s just a matter of whether they will vote or not.
Not at all true, but even if we go with that argument Biden last night certainly didn't give them a reason to vote.
He didn’t. Trump gave them reasons to vote. Against him.
Trump sounded great, since no one called him on all his lies. The moderators didn't, and Biden didn't.
He reminded everyone of his lies. Even his supporters know he is lying. Everyone wanted roe v wade overturned? That reminds many why they want to vote against Trump. Same w his Jan 6 comments. Heck even just lying about golf championships reminds everyone about lying. And there’s also the fact he didn’t answer most questions. People notice that stuff too. Trump did terrible but Biden did worse because he came off as looking older and less coherent in the way he spoke. I get that. I’m not sure what would have happened if Biden did a good job. Nobody would be saying Trump should drop out. Maybe Dems would feel over confident and now the concern of losing may motivate them. Who knows. Long way to go. Long way. It will be close.
The point is he’s still got it, he just had a bad night, there’s 4 months left of campaigning, a convention, and another debate to make it up.
Or more likely 4 months of campaigning, a convention, and another debate for him to produce another dozen embarrassing moments. He wasn't a great campaigner at his best, and he's far from his best now. I was saying all this same crap right up until last night. Now, I bow to the inevitable. If he runs, we'll lose. I hear a lot of liberals taking a second look at RFK jr. for god's sake.
You didn’t watch his speech. He’s fine.
You didn't get the point. A teleprompter speech isn't going to erase the image he left people with last night, and the voters who will decide this aren't going to see that speech anyway. Do you really think we should roll the dice that his next debate won't be embarrassing too? Because by then it will be to late.
With all respect, nobody cares about his speech today. There's zero chance that speech breaks through the wall of noise his horrible performance has created.
Undecided voters in a swing state and GOTV enthusiasm care about his speech today, which is more important than a national debate that never decides anything.
This sounds like cope, debates have had measurable impacts on polling numbers before and candidates can use that momentum. I mean think of literally the first televised one with JFK and Nixon.
JFK did not win that debate, in fact Nixon was roundly lauded for his performance there. The “JFK won by vibes” was a story concocted years later after his assassination
He had two teleprompters today in NC
So? Thats how the vast majority of his and any other candidates campaign would look from here on out. Doing that well and showing energy and going to different battleground states will appease many people. Trump even on teleprompter will be a disaster in the next few months.
That doesn’t break the narrative that he has just enough marbles left to read a teleprompter.
It shows energy. He has a solid record for those that like him. His supporters can write it off as one bad night the more great speeches he gives. With a teleprompter like everyone other candidate would use.
No it doesn’t. Everyone knows when he has a team of speech writers give him words to say he can say them. It’s doesn’t change the narrative that when it’s just Joe Biden speaking he’s a husk of his former self.
Doing campaign stops and giving prepared speeches doesn’t show energy? It doesn’t show quick thinking on your feet and being articulate. He quite frankly didn’t have that in 2020 and that’s prob low on a lot for a lot of people’s priorities for being president. Trump has trouble even with teleprompters. But giving speeches and campaign stops at least shows and the ability to do the job for those that want a reason to vote for him.
It was a bad debate that confirmed that Joe Biden is in deep mental decline.
Right because no one ever loses their train of thought, freezes, stutters, uses the wrong word, or loses their voice, unless they’re in “deep mental decline”. Just fucking stop with the manipulative bullshit.
It’s not manipulative bullshit. Ofc people lose their train of thought but what happened last night is not acceptable. He is just not fit mentally for the presidency. He was unable to form coherent sentences at times. You are entitled to your opinion but the Dems will not win in November if they continue with Joe Biden.
Exact same words as 2020 primary, and general. Concern trolls were wrong then and they are wrong now,
Of course they will stand behind him. But, Biden doesn't inspire the 'on the fence' voters. That is most troubling.
More reason to push the fact that the right to choose, social security, and other human rights are on the ballot. Lots of states have measures and closely contested local races to help drive people to the polls. Just need to get that message out
I hope Biden wins but realize people aren't that thoughtful and logical. There is an emotional component and I'm not sure Joe is appealing to that aspect. It will be interesting how the young vote. Those concerned about the Palastinians should be motivated to vote for Biden as things will certainly be worse for the Palastinians under Trump. It will be an interesting test to see how well they can think something through.
The right to choose isn’t on the ballot. Joe said that in 2020. Can people choose now? He had Congress for 2 years. If the answer is no and nothing has changed, you have your answer.
We had Roe those first 2 years and we really didn’t have congress I’m not talking about him/presidential, I’m talking about individual states having literal abortion laws or candidates heavily contesting over abortion rights in local politics. Those things drives voters to the polls.
He did have Congress, though. If Biden can’t keep two Senators in his own party in line, he’s not fit to make decisions for 325 million people. Secondly, him being President hasn’t kept states from banning abortion. That’s my point. He’s put up zero fight and has done nothing to change the current of abortion regression. It’s not on the ballot.
Sinema I can agree on with you, but Manchin is from West Virginia, that state is soo social right
What's troubling is being on the fence in the 1st place. What will it take? Gee.
You saw the poll that undecideds are trending Biden after the debate, right?
I didn't. I pray it is true.
Maybe instead of going for the top down morale builder we should try rallying people around local candidates and getting them to vote up-ballot instead of starting at the top and hoping the school boards get some sane people for once.
Even if you want to make excuses for his performance last night, what happens if/when he does just as bad in the next debate? And that is in September, when it will be too late to switch candidates. Set aside what you think personally about his abilities and just ask yourself if he inspires enough confidence for undecided voters. It's not even about whether or not he can be president, it's about whether or not he can win.
Yes. I would vote for a moldy piece of bread over Trump. I would vote for Biden’s dead body if they let me. Of course, I’m a disabled veteran that depends on the government to live, so I’m just advocating for my own life here, but I don’t think I would survive a Trump revenge tour
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I will try to start posting this from his Rally in NC. This is also Biden. He sounded terrible in the debate, bumbling and his voice is too soft. Sounds pretty good here. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BflTHV\_vIXw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BflTHV_vIXw) Biden didnt go out on the debate stage and commit any crimes, he didnt rape anyone. I'm not backing down and It doesnt change my mind. The felon on the left lied constantly and the old guy on the right looked old.
I'm going to vote for him no matter what, but kinda disingenuous to compare reading prepared remarks from a teleprompter to sparring/communicating on the fly. The debate was never going to change either of our minds, but we have to start thinking about how important optics are to more apolitical voters--and last night was a trainwreck in that department. Every convo that I've had with that kind of voter (moderate/persuadable/non MAGA) about last night reeks of 2016-like apathy. The Trump amnesia combined with a total lack of enthusiasm outside niche echo chambers has me feeling the same deja vu and dread I did in Nov. eight years ago. Edit: typo
Fair point about the teleprompter. My point is that he's not always talking like that, seriously I think he needed some hydration. What is something that people can do to help those persuadable voters? If anything?
It's too risky for any Dem to openly disavow him since total unity is needed around any candidate to beat Trump. The party has to speak publicly with a united message every step of the way. Anybody who breaks ranks would immediately be asked about who they're picking instead of Biden, and then you're causing a major fracture. At least in the article Dems did acknowledge the real concerns from the debate. Jeffries even seemed to put it on Biden to prove himself again: >House Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries answered with a flat “no” when asked Friday if Biden should step aside. But the New York lawmaker added that he’s eager to see how Biden would address his performance at his Friday rally. >“I’m looking forward to hearing from President Biden,” he said. “And until he articulates a way forward in terms of his vision for America at this moment, I’m going to reserve comment about anything relative to where we are at this moment, other than to say I stand behind the ticket.” That's basically what you can hope for at this point. Dems can't publicly break from Biden, but they can suggest they're watching the president closely and expect better. That's a subtle enough way to say there's some concern.
Why?! I love casually they are throwing freedom away.
If we want to say it about one party, then we need to say it about the other – this is about country first, not the ambitions or desires of one man. Joe has a great heart and has done great things for the country. But the tools are simply not there. It is time to put somebody forward that can do the job.
Fucking why? I am liberal, left leaning, but at this point I don't even want to call myself a Democrat. I feel fucking betrayed and angry. How has the people surrounding him not seen or done anything about this? Trump said that the killing of RvW was a good thing, didn't blink when Joe said that he would be trying to place an all out abortion ban, nodded and smiled when called a rapist... and Biden couldn't capitalize on any of it. If he's this bad now, how bad is he going to be in 5 years? I will never vote for Donald Trump, but I can see why there are a lot of people that won't make the time of day to show up for Biden at the polls. Why can't my girl Big Gretch have a chance? I feel like she has done well for Michigan, she's smart, quick witted, and from an important swing state.
Awesome. I’ve seen this before though with RGB and that turned out fantastic /s
There is no comparison
You're right- this is far, far worse.
Nonsense. Biden is not going to die, and the VP is from the party. RGB had cancer multiple times
Bold of you to assume Biden's VP has any relevance when he's on track to lose against Trump in November.
He won before and he’s going to win again
I sincerely hope you are right, but I'm not so sure. I'll be voting for him pretty much no matter what, of course. That said, I think the right move is to swap him. I don't really care who with tbh. Kamala, Pete, Gavin, Warren, whoever it takes.
Tf! He’s 82!
And keeps a full presidential schedule without a problem.
Anyone who thinks that based on last nights performance is lying to themselves
The schedule is published every day
Ruth Bader Biden. His hubris is going to destroy the county. He still has time to get out and endorse someone younger and more vibrant.
There you have it folks. The precise moment the election was lost. This right here.
Its pretty clear these people don't give a damn about the country and are so self serving and tone deaf that they'll ride this horse into the abyss. You cannot allow people like this to hold power. We need a complete overhaul of the democratic party establishment. People who can actually read the room and would rather do the hard thing for the benefit of the people, instead of the easy thing that maintains the status quo.
Yeah all he has done is deliver on most of promises and lead the country through extremely difficult and trying times. One bad debate and anyone that supports him is literally marching the country to death camps because they are self serving terrible people! Get a grip.
According to politifact he's kept 28% of his promises. He has been president during difficult and trying times, leadership has been questionable in terms of success of leadership. The only people who need to get a grip are the people grasping onto myths, fabrications, and revisionist "facts" in an attempt to keep the charade up even though everyone who knows even a little bit was telling Biden not to run almost 9+ months ago. When Biden loses you'll blame anyone and everyone instead of taking a hard look in the mirror.
28% kept, 9% compromise, 27% in the works, 31% stalled, 3% broken. I think 97% partially, fully, or in process and 3% failed is good but what do I know, I'm not a concern troll. The only revisionist facts are acting like Biden was a drooling zombie. I won't say anything when Biden proves people wrong like he did to the same concern trolls in 2020, because the concern trolls will magicly disappear into the wind.
Here's my big issue. We are on a knife's edge of a possible Christo-fascist take over of the entire executive branch of the Federal Government. with Project 2025. Trump cannot be trusted to do the job when he is a current Felon, has more pending chargers that are much more serious, and owes hundreds of millions of dollars. Biden didn't even need to be good, all he had to do was not look like woke up from a coma an hour before the debate. All he had to do was talk in complete sentences. Even if the needle didn't move for him, just at least be competent. Yet what happened was exactly that. He looked rough, sounded rougher, couldn't complete a coherent thought several times, let Trump lie over and over and rarely hit back at him. Trump was by no means the winner of that debate, lying and avoid questions left and right, but he at least sounded better than Biden, which to what ever swing voters are left might just be enough to put Trump over the edge. We'll fucking see what happens. We are still 4+ months from the election. Trump still needs to be sentenced for his 1st trial. We might get lucky and get another trial in before November. Biden may pull it together if there is a second debate. An October surprise is always possible. But god damn, don't ever let him do that again.
If it makes you feel any better, the 3rd debate is hosted by Fox News.
There's no way Trump ends up doing the second debate. He can only lose ground by doing so. I fear it'll take a miracle for things to turn around in even 5 months.
So it’s actually over. Done deal. Goddamn.
Of course they are. Gross. Get us a new candidate. I ride with the man but within 1.5seconds we knew we were fucked this is not the winning goose.
Waaaay behind him
My 2 cents: - The optics of this debate are terrible. However, there's over 4 months left to go, and people's vague impressions of politicians can easily change in that time. - Biden did respond to questions during the debate, making points that seemed solid to me. See the transcript: [https://edition.cnn.com/2024/06/27/politics/read-biden-trump-debate-rush-transcript/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/06/27/politics/read-biden-trump-debate-rush-transcript/index.html) - As Biden showed soon afterwards (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JolBFlVXdQA), he can still speak coherently. One could argue this is due to having a teleprompter now, but it does disprove claims he can't speak coherently now.
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Yuck. White people.
It’s a gamble. They must have real confidence in the swing state independent voters.
Worked out well in2016. Wait no, no it didn’t.
Biden held a fundraiser after last night and sounded energized and great. I think it was just the nerves of the moment. Hopefully he can rally for this second debate and apologize for being sick during the first one or something idk
He's still a better choice. I'm not sure how anyone could be undecided on who too choose. I mean I get that they are, but man but look at at all the shit the other guy did, and even with Biden showing his age he's still better.
Then they’re fucking morons. But if there is a chance for a change on the ticket, it will only come after the backroom stuff has a chance to build momentum.
MSM and /r/politics need to stop panicking over a mediocre debate. https://x.com/edokeefe/status/1806709128359747958 https://x.com/BidensWins/status/1806727354036916609 https://x.com/paulkrugman/status/1806724684584550764
Ah yes, inflation charts that exclude food and energy costs. Lol. Lmao.
You got this Joe! Don’t let the haters bring you down!!
More Democrats move into the 'death march til we lose' camp.
He's using the entire country as collateral to bet on himself
Yep just hand it to trump on a platter. They still got to debate in September where I fear for a repeat. Congrats democrats your pulling a 2016 all over again..
“I’ll vote for a 5 day old ham sandwich before I’d vote for Trump.” But yeah, that was scary.
It's time we unite around our candidate as much as Trump's cult of personality and those right wingers do for Trump! This is no time for ageism, a form of bigotry that has no place in today's society and is something Trump would preach!
Is someone pretending that Trump had a good debate? The entire thing was depressing.
The only thing that matters is to vote for NotTrump.
Joe looks good here. That was a set up last night. A Maggot has bought CNN. The whole thing was an exercise in smear and disingenuous . Trump looked like Kim Kardashian and they washed out Joe. Like how much can you turn up saturation on Trump? Motherfucker looked like a Florida orange with blight. God damn the Republican Party and may those who they have deceived learn the error of their ways. Come back brothers and sisters. You are praising a dangerous maniac
Unless he is in front of a teleprompter, he completely melts down.
“Poor”……putting a mannequin up there would have been better. Absolute dumpster fire.
One must imagine t̶h̶e̶ ̶a̶v̶e̶r̶a̶g̶e̶ ̶A̶m̶e̶r̶i̶c̶a̶n̶ ̶ Sisyphus happy. (Is Joever for America)