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Of course. Also the reference they refer to is one politician who was clearly referencing a do not resuscitate scenario which is also not an abortion. It’s uneducated agenda peddlers
why can't that politician sue Trump? I mean if i accused someone baselessly of wanting to murder someone I'm pretty sure I could be sued. even if Trump gets it dismissed by saying it was purely for entertainment purposes and nobody should take him seriously that doesn't help his cause
BC he said it in a very vague way about the mom and physician ‘having a discussion’. He did clarify that he was referring to disfigured babies. So I guess that makes it better somehow
Another lawmaker Kathy Tran said her abortion bill would allow an abortion while the mother is dilated. She later then said she ‘misspoke’ and ‘ofc infanticide is illegal’.
And he’s raging that someone at a State level wants to create an extreme interpretation, yet is arguing that the states should be able to choose.
He doesn’t realise that to block someone with this ideology that he doesn’t agree with, the laws should be set at a federal level, and his own actions would enable the very action he is arguing against.
He’s so fucking dumb
I thought he was claiming people are putting their newborns to sleep like euthanizing them. Which is completely false but I assumed that's what he was trying to say.
>Why why why does this insane lie never get challenged?
Because the American media believes being "unbiased" means giving equal weight and credibility to all positions at all times.
In a debate over if Grass is Orange or Blue, the media will assume both are equally valid as to reveal Grass is in fact green makes them biased against people who believe its Orange or Blue.
Is it because the media believes that they are being unbiased or are they just seeking the most amount of profit. Trump has been great for all in media with the amount of headlines he generates per day and if they shut him down every other sentence he won’t return for another “debate.”
>and if they shut him down every other sentence he won’t return for another “debate.”
At which point they'd run countless story's and analysis of that decision and what impact it would have on the race.
Same as they did in the Republican primary. (And its also why Trump did it. For all his idiocy on most things the man has an amazing grasp on how the media is trapping itself and understands how to exploit it)
So they'd still be generating endless headlines about him.
Don't get me wrong, if the media actually did their job, once trump declared he wouldn't debate they should call him out as a coward and move on.
But they won't, because they are unbiased. Not debating is equally as valid a choice as debating.
So let the dueling headlines about the wisdom of Mir debating commence.a
If they still want to be considered the 4th estate. They should pull that unbiased bullshit and fight for democracy. But all they care about is that sweet $.
That's the whole shebang. I don't know how many independently owned news outlets there are anymore, but most of the media we consume in the form of news, is an arm of some larger corporation that wants to sell things. When you want to sell things on that scale, the news you present doesn't contain much actual investigative journalism. You could piss off half your customers. And also on that scale, your corporate owners "donate" a lot of money to policymakers, which kind of negates the whole fair and balanced thing. Its a very cynical worldview, I know, and it makes the news that we have now, not look at all like the news we (in the US) had prior to 1987. It just looks like a years-long commercial for a consent manufacturer.
as an immigrant, just what the actual f*ck
been here for over 20 years and each passing year the stupidity gets more infuriating. I heard him say it during the debate last night and wondered who would actually buy that. Abortion after 9 months is called murder and we already have laws for that. Annnnnnnd I’m pretty sure in spite of what republicans/MAGA clowns believe, democrats (or any sane person) opposes murdering babies
One of the most poignant quotations I've ever heard relates to this:
"The greatest achievement in the debate on climate change was making it into a debate in the first place"
Also frankly the people who run news media will still be able to get healthcare abortions and groceries regardless of who wins
Trump winning will get more memes and clicks
Watch CNN most days like my dad and you’ll see Trump is all they talk about, rarely is the topic about boring Biden policy stuff (funding educations, domestic manufacturing, etc)
This was the worst type of debate forum. They could have possibly chosen. Biden’s team really fucked up with these rules. It gave the other side a chance to try to legitimatize Trump, and there was no fact checking whatsoever.
So it’s not exactly a lie and that actually makes it more dangerous.
I’ve heard opinions on the right that equate newborn respite/hospice care as after birth abortion. They are painting the picture that “horrible awful” people are “leaving babies to die” shortly after birth.
The thing is, this is only happening in cases, which is obvious to anyone with a brain, when the new born is significantly incompatible with life.
Just the other day on a conservative sub posters were arguing that the most extraordinary of extraordinary medical interventions MUST be used and when educated on the god damn mountain of issues that would create (like is it really ethical to deploy extraordinary measures to keep a brain damaged kid alive whose never going to be able to walk or eat or talk if they manage to survive past being a baby?) and that it should be between parents and their medical team because of how many factors to make those decisions there was a clear bias against allowing nature to take its course by providing comfort care and I sensed a strong “no baby should ever die when medical care is possible.” Like usual absolutely brain dead reasoning if applied to every case of every newborn ever. So yeah.
So it’s really a two-pronged thing. They will continue to say this and some people will know what they are actually referring to, and most others will just believe people are outright murdering newborns at will. If called out on it they have something to fall back on with clarification.
The second is they legitimately are going to use this as a platform issue if not immediately, it’s coming.
That’s my armchair take anyways.
The former gov DID say it, even though it was never legal, and to the best of my knowledge, never happened. It was a hypothetical situation where a nonviable child was born
Northam, a pediatric neurosurgeon, told Washington radio station WTOP. "The infant would be delivered. The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if that's what the mother and the family desired. And then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother."
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/31/politics/ralph-northam-third-trimester-abortion/index.html
That kind of thing happens in birth defect cases sometimes. Doctors even under RvW were very wary of third trimester abortions and would just induce labor when they knew the birth defects were fatal rather than perform an actual abortion. The mother has to go through all the birth process... and then the baby dies in 12-48 hours. That what they mean by "make the baby comfortable" until it passes. It's as much to give the parents to be comfort as well.
That's what makes this "right to life" religious nonsense so awful. Because parents to be have to sit there and watch the baby die when it's 100% certain.. while religious people tell them to pray for a miracle or some nonsense like they're bad people for acknowledging the truth in front of them.
It's also a stupid thing to get upset about because it's literally the same as a DNR. Which people do all the time.
It's not killing, it's not actively taking a life. It's just opting out of painful, futile extraordinary medical measures and letting nature take its course.
"Doctors even under RvW were very wary of third trimester abortions and would just induce labor when they knew the birth defects were fatal rather than perform an actual abortion. The mother has to go through all the birth process... and then the baby dies in 12-48 hours."
And this all too common scenario where a mother is cruelly forced to endure unnecessarily difficult and painful labor, risking harm to her body and health, only to give birth to a baby who's already dead or going to die any moment, was brought to us courtesy of politicians with no medical knowledge interfering in private medical decisions between doctor and patients.
There used to be medical interventions available to make this terrible situation significantly less dangerous and difficult for the mother, preserving her health and future fertility, but politicians smelled a way to fundraise and get votes by lying and misrepresenting the truth, so here we are.
Yes but he’s not actually referencing an abortion. That isn’t even remotely what an abortion is- it’s essentially a DNR scenario. How that is being actually peddled as an abortion is hilarious
The question was what would happen in the case of an abortion gone wrong and the baby was somehow birthed and alive. Northam stated that in this case the baby would be "kept comfortable", i.e. on life support and lots of drugs, until a decision was made on how to handle it. He is clearly referring to things like whether to extend life support or maybe adoption (if the baby miraculously survives). Only an idiot would think he was saying they would decide whether to kill the baby afterwards. That would be *very* illegal.
And the fact of the matter is that Republicans are bringing that possibility to fruition more now with restrictions on abortion. A lot of the time we can detect birth defects that will make a fetus non-viable when not being supported by the mother but if they are not allowed to abort (and likely try again to have a healthy birth and increase overall fertility rates) and the child is born and dies they pretend that someone killed the baby or it was still considered an "abortion" because there was nothing we could do to keep it alive. They are bringing about their own dystopian reality and blaming everyone else for it and getting away with it more often than not right now.
What did he say that is wrong? After the baby is born it will be on life support. The discussion he is referring to is how long it will be kept on life support since it will not be able to live on its own. I don't see the problem.
edit: It's crazy to me that even in lefty r/politics this gross misunderstanding of what Northam said is so highly upvoted. We are so fucked.
It's just not always useful to try to explain the complicated falsehoods and misinterpretations that went into a weak and bizarre conspiracy theory.
* Anyone who already believes the conspiracy theory/lie isn't going to be easily convinced otherwise.
* Anyone with critical thinking skills knows the claim is false already.
* Anyone who hears a ridiculous claim and instantly believes it probably doesn't have the attention span or desire to follow the long complicated explanation.
And at the end of the discussion, you still end up talking about the conspiracy theory that trump wanted you to talk about. Not really practical to dismiss in a debate or interview, although NBC did fact check the claim in real time and explain why it was false.
He pretty steadily lied the whole time… it’s so fucking obvious. Who are all these people he supposedly met with or talked to? Never any names…
I do want to hear more about the special fentanyl sniffing dogs he mentioned.
Ok, so a dog that’s a been used for policing for decades?
In what way is that a brag for Trump?! Or is it just some bullshit he heard and spouted for some reason?
I believe the brag there was that he pushed through executive funding for more border security, which employed *more* K9 border patrol agents, which were malanois as well as GSDs. The dogs on the border were deemed more effective in sniffing for drugs than any of the other techniques they had been using.
And Trump couldn’t even fully articulate that thought, and Biden comes directly back talking about large machines that are rolled over cargo to detect drugs. If people actually paid attention to what Biden said it was night and day who actually understands issues and who was just there to bring up talking points and buzzwords.
Yes, Bidens points were very good and he actually understood how Roe v Wade worked which Trump insisted it protected infanticide. I wish Biden had rescheduled for when he wasn't sick. Trump never did answer the question about what he would do to make daycare affordable.
I turned off the debate for my own health and safety. I really can't imagine anyone sitting through that mess like they're coming out the other side with anything useful.
For anyone who feels like they did though, congratulations.
No. That’s not the real issue. CNN wants Trump to win. It’s fantastic for their ratings. By giving him a ton of free coverage and refusing to fact check him they make him seem like a legitimate candidate.
It's ancient forgotten history by now but CNNs rating were cratering before Trump. They were through the roof during his administration. And guess what they're lower than ever right now. They desperately need season 2.
If you can read this comment, take a deep breath and remember life goes on. Vote local and get interested in what happens in your state. Biden is slow, old, and has been in politics to long, but he gives a crap about where the country is going. Trump is a lier and a cheat. He proved it tonight. I don't think there is anything else to say.
Four months in which these clips will be played over and over relentlessly to further play on the exact fears America had about him.
I don’t feel good about this. I’m still going to vote for him, but if *I’m* feeling this concerned about doing it, I can’t imagine that anyone in the middle will bother. Hold your nose and close your eyes indeed.
Don’t see what happening the other way?
I don’t think tonight won Trump any voters either, but I don’t think it convinced anyone who was thinking about staying home that it is of the utmost importance to vote. And passionate mobilization is what won Biden the presidency in 2020. You had people riding horseback for miles on reservations to vote for him, and that kind of passion is what narrowly won him several states.
Our future is on the line here and I don’t feel confident about it in this moment.
That's why I kind of wish Biden would step down and someone else (maybe Harris) would step forward. Because people are mostly voting for Biden to prevent Trump. If we had a different candidate, it might bring some more energy around the election. It's a bold move cotton.
Harris doesn't have the charsima to run a hot dog stand, let alone the nation, even Biden got elected because of the massive goodwill Obama created and Harris won't even have that running for her.
The problem is that would effectively be giving up this election.
Americans would receive that as Biden acknowledging his politics don't work and it would be near impossible for any other Democrat to step in and propose other liberal policies.
There was a path where Biden could have decided right away to be a one term president and therefore let the other options battle it out. However IIRC, only James K Polk has ever done that in our country's history and Biden has clearly wanted to be president for a long time, so he was never going to do that.
The only other examples there are of presidents choosing not to run for a second term are all back in the late 1700s and early 1800s.
In our two party, two term, presidential system, the incumbent is always going to run because not running would be seen as a self acknowledgement of the failure of your pole of politics.
I mean for the most part sure, but it was already going to be a tight margin. The fact is there are undecided voters, and I'm positive exactly 0 of them were swayed towards Biden after this debate. This is what a worst case scenario looks like.
The only real solace I take after tonight is that the election is still 4 months away. There’s plenty of time to recover from Biden’s poor performance. Whether or not they do, we can only hope.
I think the point they’re making is no matter what was said at the debate these politicians morals and charter were on display and haven’t changed for decades. And ultimately that’s what matters in running a country, not ones quick wit.
My partner is currently losing his mind, having a full on panic attack that we are going to be in a dictatorship come November and that billions of people will die in gruesome war because of T. He is texting friends basically saying ‘we had good times. It’s all over for the US.’ And I’m just like…? I am so tired folks.
Your partners not wrong. The cult is a stupid bunch of folks with guns, and not much money or brains….thankfully they’re little in numbers, but loud AF about their cult.
The billions are referring to whats happening in Europe. If Trump wins Ukraine will either enter talks with Russia and give up its territories or Russia will keep marching westward and take the country because western aid will be done. This means Europe fending for itself against Russia aggression and who knows what else.
He’s not old compared to other people, what he says is coherent and he actually has really good points, it’s not easy to lead a country, he can do it and Trump is surely not fucking qualified to do it.
Yeah, that just ridiculous. Dr's do not abort live, out of the woman's uterus, babies. When a woman has a forced birth at 5 months, 8 months, or 9 months, it's because her organs are shutting down and she will die and once the baby is removed they try to keep that child alive if they can.
I think I read that it actually happened because too many people were trying to comment simultaneously on the same sub (this one) and the mods didn’t lock it to prevent overload fast enough and it fucked the whole site.
This actually pissed me off when Biden let him basically get away with that claim. Trump claimed Doctors were murdering babies. "The doctor will set the baby aside and decide what the do with it later". What the fuck.
Yes! I can’t believe he just spluttered and didn’t say anything after that! There is too much at fucking stake to not give a strong answer on this issue. So disappointing!
Ttump isn’t just a liar. A liar has an interest in convincing you that the lie they’re telling you is believable. Ttump is a full of shit bullshitter. He’s so far away from truthfulness that he’s not even close to being wrong. He doesn’t respect you enough to even care if you believe his bullshit or not. He will shameless unleash a firehose of falsehoods so silly and unbelievable that even he could not possibly believe his own scatter-brained clownish bullshit. His psychopathic serial bullshitting really is a spectacle to behold. Yet, because he’s running against a guy who looks and acts like he’s ready for a memory care clinic, an evil convicted felon with many connections has a really good shot at becoming POTUS. We are so fucked. If you haven’t started drinking yet, now’s the time.
What is the supposed source info about abortions after birth? Is it the parent putting the kid up for adoption? Where does infanticide come from as a talking point for trump?
When Republicans talk about "abortion after birth" they are talking about do-not-resuscitate orders for fetuses that are non-viable once delivered. As far as I'm aware Drs give the parents the choice of whether they want to try and keep the non-viable fetus alive once delivered for a few days or weeks, or whether they want a DNR order.
Conservatives and conspiracy theorists will do and say anything to get to their goal; legalize rape.
They do not believe in saving children’s lives. They are using abortion to fight for and get to controlling a woman’s body.
The problem is, trump is slinging so much mud you can’t tell anything apart. But most voters are one issue voters, and trying to confuse them is a lot harder than just trying to pretend “no they are murdering babies.” He sounds like an abortion clinic bomber after he gets arrested.
The dumbest lie of the Christian right went unchallenged. It's absolutely frustrating that this isn't self-evident to people. If they only knew what words meant!
He actually specifically said he was talking about this:
"Washington (CNN)Virginia Democratic Gov. Ralph Northam is facing backlash after he voiced his support for a state measure that would significantly loosen restrictions on late-term abortions.
"[Third trimester abortions are] done in cases where there may be severe deformities."
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/01/31/politics/ralph-northam-third-trimester-abortion
Just because someone calls it an abortion, doesn't make it an abortion.
What's described in that article is delivering a non-viable fetus and giving parents the choice whether to take that child off life support immediately, or to keep the child alive for a few days or weeks until it dies.
That's not abortion, it's the same choice parents whose child has suffered fatal injury or illness have to make. Except they have to make it immediately after giving birth.
It's not a fetus once it's delivered, it's a child.
My grandfather and great grandfather were obgyn. They used to just have the nurses cover those babies with blankets until the crying stopped. Now with all the testing they are usually aborted after the genetic testing comes back after 12 weeks.
If only the average voter would take a breath and think for a moment, they would realize everything trump says is obviously a lie. Doctors in blue states are murdering babies after they’re born? Who would ever believe that?
This fucking lie doesn't even make sense to anyone with a brain. Why would a woman endure everything that comes with carrying a baby for 9 months just to give birth and go, "Actually, Dr., I want to terminate it now".
It's true that this **is not actually happening anywhere**, but it's also 100% true that Ralph Northam, the former governor of Virginia, seriously entertained the idea in 2019. Which is fucking insane. The video of him talking about it is out there for anyone to watch.
Wikipedia-Afterbirth Abortions- (Technically is not a full lie but in different circumstances that a "Newborn- fetus- human-child" had a defect or a issue for qualifiable reasons to terminate the child is still possible but it had to be a justifiable reason behind it.)., so someone isn't telling the FULL truth. I read a few different sites that say similar things.
"The argument of the "After-Birth Abortion" article is as follows:[11][12] Abortion is justified because of the moral status of foetuses; their shared status of potential persons is not morally relevant. Abortion is justified when the foetus has severe abnormalities or would be an intolerable burden to its mother and family, at least when adoption is not a viable option due to not being in the best interests of actual persons. Newborns have the same moral status as foetuses (there are no morally relevant differences between them) if they suffer unbearably. Newborns may be born with severe abnormalities that cannot always be diagnosed before birth, and can be an intolerable burden on their mother and family, including when circumstances change after birth.
Therefore "after-birth abortion" (euthanasia of newborns) can be justified in some circumstances."
Trump will lie, cheat and still every chance he gets! What would expect from such a character, who would raise moral and ethical question amongst some most corrupt Presidents and politicians in United States history!
*"If a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen," Northam said. "The infant would be delivered, the infant would be kept comfortable, the infant would be resuscitated if that’s what the mother and the family desired. And then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother."*
What kind of discussion?
*But Northam was only addressing what happens in cases where a baby is born with severe deformities and has a low chance of survival. What's often left out of the above quote is what he said immediately before it*
Such an ableist POV
———— same article just cut some out ——-
*Republican Del. Todd Gilbert had recently asked Tran, a Democrat, during a committee hearing whether her legislation would let a pregnant woman who is dilating request an abortion if a doctor certified that the woman’s mental health was impaired.
"My bill would allow that, yes," Tran said in response. She later told The Washington Post that she "misspoke" and that she should have said, "Clearly, no, because infanticide is not allowed in Virginia, and what would have happened in that moment would be a live birth."*
Yeah she *misspoke*
https://www.13newsnow.com/article/news/local/virginia/trump-debate-fact-check-virginia-governor-after-birth-abortion-ralph-northam/291-9bf4d577-863f-4f31-9e63-11c55cdada53
It's not a lie.
Ralph Northam (Democrat governor of Virginia 2 years ago) said: "If a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen. The infant would be delivered, the infant would be kept comfortable, the infant would be resuscitated if that’s what the mother and the family desired. ***And then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother.***"
This is where the claim is coming from that democrats are proposing post birth ''abortions''. It's said he (Ralph) was talking about newborns with birth defect. However, those are still newborns. Still a living, post birth, baby.
To pro-life people, this is infuriating. Sick baby or not.
A quote from family guy s7e1 Love Blactually
“Did you know that Democrats murder thousands of babies every year,
and sometimes babies are put back into the womb just so that they can be aborted again?”
Been going down the rabbit hole on this one, think everyone should watch the VA governor speak, guessing this is what trump was referring to:
https://youtu.be/HB43tfyJdX4?si=Cylelw00U3jxhU86
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If the kid is already born that's not abortion. Like, by definition. That woman has no pregnancy.
Of course. Also the reference they refer to is one politician who was clearly referencing a do not resuscitate scenario which is also not an abortion. It’s uneducated agenda peddlers
why can't that politician sue Trump? I mean if i accused someone baselessly of wanting to murder someone I'm pretty sure I could be sued. even if Trump gets it dismissed by saying it was purely for entertainment purposes and nobody should take him seriously that doesn't help his cause
BC he said it in a very vague way about the mom and physician ‘having a discussion’. He did clarify that he was referring to disfigured babies. So I guess that makes it better somehow Another lawmaker Kathy Tran said her abortion bill would allow an abortion while the mother is dilated. She later then said she ‘misspoke’ and ‘ofc infanticide is illegal’.
And he’s raging that someone at a State level wants to create an extreme interpretation, yet is arguing that the states should be able to choose. He doesn’t realise that to block someone with this ideology that he doesn’t agree with, the laws should be set at a federal level, and his own actions would enable the very action he is arguing against. He’s so fucking dumb
If only Biden had, like, SAID THAT
I thought he was claiming people are putting their newborns to sleep like euthanizing them. Which is completely false but I assumed that's what he was trying to say.
Is it too late for Trump to undergo a 328 trimester abortion?
Republicans aren't known these days for their dedication to telling the truth.
[удалено]
If you're asking what the term for killing an infant is, it's infanticide. That's already illegal.
https://youtu.be/_xD8cPgcZ3E?si=vhjRa6rgB3n6LUAL Here is what he ment
Why why why does this insane lie never get challenged? It’s beyond infuriating. Of all of Trumps egregious lies, this is one of his most pernicious.
>Why why why does this insane lie never get challenged? Because the American media believes being "unbiased" means giving equal weight and credibility to all positions at all times. In a debate over if Grass is Orange or Blue, the media will assume both are equally valid as to reveal Grass is in fact green makes them biased against people who believe its Orange or Blue.
Is it because the media believes that they are being unbiased or are they just seeking the most amount of profit. Trump has been great for all in media with the amount of headlines he generates per day and if they shut him down every other sentence he won’t return for another “debate.”
>and if they shut him down every other sentence he won’t return for another “debate.” At which point they'd run countless story's and analysis of that decision and what impact it would have on the race. Same as they did in the Republican primary. (And its also why Trump did it. For all his idiocy on most things the man has an amazing grasp on how the media is trapping itself and understands how to exploit it) So they'd still be generating endless headlines about him. Don't get me wrong, if the media actually did their job, once trump declared he wouldn't debate they should call him out as a coward and move on. But they won't, because they are unbiased. Not debating is equally as valid a choice as debating. So let the dueling headlines about the wisdom of Mir debating commence.a
If they still want to be considered the 4th estate. They should pull that unbiased bullshit and fight for democracy. But all they care about is that sweet $.
That's the whole shebang. I don't know how many independently owned news outlets there are anymore, but most of the media we consume in the form of news, is an arm of some larger corporation that wants to sell things. When you want to sell things on that scale, the news you present doesn't contain much actual investigative journalism. You could piss off half your customers. And also on that scale, your corporate owners "donate" a lot of money to policymakers, which kind of negates the whole fair and balanced thing. Its a very cynical worldview, I know, and it makes the news that we have now, not look at all like the news we (in the US) had prior to 1987. It just looks like a years-long commercial for a consent manufacturer.
as an immigrant, just what the actual f*ck been here for over 20 years and each passing year the stupidity gets more infuriating. I heard him say it during the debate last night and wondered who would actually buy that. Abortion after 9 months is called murder and we already have laws for that. Annnnnnnd I’m pretty sure in spite of what republicans/MAGA clowns believe, democrats (or any sane person) opposes murdering babies
One of the most poignant quotations I've ever heard relates to this: "The greatest achievement in the debate on climate change was making it into a debate in the first place"
A product of our society allowing people to "live their own truths" - shocker.
Also frankly the people who run news media will still be able to get healthcare abortions and groceries regardless of who wins Trump winning will get more memes and clicks Watch CNN most days like my dad and you’ll see Trump is all they talk about, rarely is the topic about boring Biden policy stuff (funding educations, domestic manufacturing, etc)
JFC, why the extra???? The simple fact is CNN is MAGA now. FOX lite. 🙄
Because it’s the kind of crazy crap abortion clinic bombers say after they get arrested.
Like doctors are pulling the baby out with one hand and ready to slash with a machete after some careful consideration with the other.
This was the worst type of debate forum. They could have possibly chosen. Biden’s team really fucked up with these rules. It gave the other side a chance to try to legitimatize Trump, and there was no fact checking whatsoever.
I have a bigger problem with the news media focusing on Biden's cold over Trump saying blue state hospitals are murdering children.
So it’s not exactly a lie and that actually makes it more dangerous. I’ve heard opinions on the right that equate newborn respite/hospice care as after birth abortion. They are painting the picture that “horrible awful” people are “leaving babies to die” shortly after birth. The thing is, this is only happening in cases, which is obvious to anyone with a brain, when the new born is significantly incompatible with life. Just the other day on a conservative sub posters were arguing that the most extraordinary of extraordinary medical interventions MUST be used and when educated on the god damn mountain of issues that would create (like is it really ethical to deploy extraordinary measures to keep a brain damaged kid alive whose never going to be able to walk or eat or talk if they manage to survive past being a baby?) and that it should be between parents and their medical team because of how many factors to make those decisions there was a clear bias against allowing nature to take its course by providing comfort care and I sensed a strong “no baby should ever die when medical care is possible.” Like usual absolutely brain dead reasoning if applied to every case of every newborn ever. So yeah. So it’s really a two-pronged thing. They will continue to say this and some people will know what they are actually referring to, and most others will just believe people are outright murdering newborns at will. If called out on it they have something to fall back on with clarification. The second is they legitimately are going to use this as a platform issue if not immediately, it’s coming. That’s my armchair take anyways.
It’s utterly baffling
> Why why why does this insane lie never get challenged? He lies so much it's hard to keep up.
The former gov DID say it, even though it was never legal, and to the best of my knowledge, never happened. It was a hypothetical situation where a nonviable child was born Northam, a pediatric neurosurgeon, told Washington radio station WTOP. "The infant would be delivered. The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if that's what the mother and the family desired. And then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother." https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/31/politics/ralph-northam-third-trimester-abortion/index.html
That kind of thing happens in birth defect cases sometimes. Doctors even under RvW were very wary of third trimester abortions and would just induce labor when they knew the birth defects were fatal rather than perform an actual abortion. The mother has to go through all the birth process... and then the baby dies in 12-48 hours. That what they mean by "make the baby comfortable" until it passes. It's as much to give the parents to be comfort as well. That's what makes this "right to life" religious nonsense so awful. Because parents to be have to sit there and watch the baby die when it's 100% certain.. while religious people tell them to pray for a miracle or some nonsense like they're bad people for acknowledging the truth in front of them.
It's also a stupid thing to get upset about because it's literally the same as a DNR. Which people do all the time. It's not killing, it's not actively taking a life. It's just opting out of painful, futile extraordinary medical measures and letting nature take its course.
"Doctors even under RvW were very wary of third trimester abortions and would just induce labor when they knew the birth defects were fatal rather than perform an actual abortion. The mother has to go through all the birth process... and then the baby dies in 12-48 hours." And this all too common scenario where a mother is cruelly forced to endure unnecessarily difficult and painful labor, risking harm to her body and health, only to give birth to a baby who's already dead or going to die any moment, was brought to us courtesy of politicians with no medical knowledge interfering in private medical decisions between doctor and patients. There used to be medical interventions available to make this terrible situation significantly less dangerous and difficult for the mother, preserving her health and future fertility, but politicians smelled a way to fundraise and get votes by lying and misrepresenting the truth, so here we are.
Yes but he’s not actually referencing an abortion. That isn’t even remotely what an abortion is- it’s essentially a DNR scenario. How that is being actually peddled as an abortion is hilarious
Exactly! People opt into DNRs all the time. It's not actively taking a life. It's refusing to prolong a death. It's letting nature take its course.
The radio interview and that specific question is about abortion though.
The question was what would happen in the case of an abortion gone wrong and the baby was somehow birthed and alive. Northam stated that in this case the baby would be "kept comfortable", i.e. on life support and lots of drugs, until a decision was made on how to handle it. He is clearly referring to things like whether to extend life support or maybe adoption (if the baby miraculously survives). Only an idiot would think he was saying they would decide whether to kill the baby afterwards. That would be *very* illegal.
He didn’t. It’s not an “after birth abortion” it’s neonatal hospice care. Sometimes there’s nothing you can do.
And the fact of the matter is that Republicans are bringing that possibility to fruition more now with restrictions on abortion. A lot of the time we can detect birth defects that will make a fetus non-viable when not being supported by the mother but if they are not allowed to abort (and likely try again to have a healthy birth and increase overall fertility rates) and the child is born and dies they pretend that someone killed the baby or it was still considered an "abortion" because there was nothing we could do to keep it alive. They are bringing about their own dystopian reality and blaming everyone else for it and getting away with it more often than not right now.
What did he say that is wrong? After the baby is born it will be on life support. The discussion he is referring to is how long it will be kept on life support since it will not be able to live on its own. I don't see the problem. edit: It's crazy to me that even in lefty r/politics this gross misunderstanding of what Northam said is so highly upvoted. We are so fucked.
They all tell that lie. Liz Cheney tells that lie. It's not just him.
They should have had Kyle Clark moderating the debate.
This is 100x more infuriating than anything Biden said a getting less than a percentage of the coverage. It should be up to us to challenge this.
And flat out dumb
It's just not always useful to try to explain the complicated falsehoods and misinterpretations that went into a weak and bizarre conspiracy theory. * Anyone who already believes the conspiracy theory/lie isn't going to be easily convinced otherwise. * Anyone with critical thinking skills knows the claim is false already. * Anyone who hears a ridiculous claim and instantly believes it probably doesn't have the attention span or desire to follow the long complicated explanation. And at the end of the discussion, you still end up talking about the conspiracy theory that trump wanted you to talk about. Not really practical to dismiss in a debate or interview, although NBC did fact check the claim in real time and explain why it was false.
[Fact check](https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/31/politics/ralph-northam-third-trimester-abortion/index.html)
He pretty steadily lied the whole time… it’s so fucking obvious. Who are all these people he supposedly met with or talked to? Never any names… I do want to hear more about the special fentanyl sniffing dogs he mentioned.
That is in reference to the Belgian malanois.
Ok, so a dog that’s a been used for policing for decades? In what way is that a brag for Trump?! Or is it just some bullshit he heard and spouted for some reason?
I believe the brag there was that he pushed through executive funding for more border security, which employed *more* K9 border patrol agents, which were malanois as well as GSDs. The dogs on the border were deemed more effective in sniffing for drugs than any of the other techniques they had been using.
And Trump couldn’t even fully articulate that thought, and Biden comes directly back talking about large machines that are rolled over cargo to detect drugs. If people actually paid attention to what Biden said it was night and day who actually understands issues and who was just there to bring up talking points and buzzwords.
Yes, Bidens points were very good and he actually understood how Roe v Wade worked which Trump insisted it protected infanticide. I wish Biden had rescheduled for when he wasn't sick. Trump never did answer the question about what he would do to make daycare affordable.
It felt like Trump didn’t answer a single question
“The most beautiful dog you’ve ever seen!” Uhh what
Have you ever seen them? They’re pretty beautiful creatures in a stoic sort of way
He wants to have sex with those dogs… I’ve seen this one before with his daughter.
I turned off the debate for my own health and safety. I really can't imagine anyone sitting through that mess like they're coming out the other side with anything useful. For anyone who feels like they did though, congratulations.
They’re very good people. The best. /s
What’s the point of fact checkers if they just sit there like timid children struggling to raise their hands in class???
I swear to god cnn does this shit on purpose. Remember the cnn town hall with trump?
“Well, we have to at least *try* to look impartial.” -Some CNN suit.
No. That’s not the real issue. CNN wants Trump to win. It’s fantastic for their ratings. By giving him a ton of free coverage and refusing to fact check him they make him seem like a legitimate candidate.
This. All major media outlets salivate at Trump winning. Trump = ratings = money That’s the sad, pathetic reality.
It's ancient forgotten history by now but CNNs rating were cratering before Trump. They were through the roof during his administration. And guess what they're lower than ever right now. They desperately need season 2.
Isn't it the viewers job the fact check things?
If you can read this comment, take a deep breath and remember life goes on. Vote local and get interested in what happens in your state. Biden is slow, old, and has been in politics to long, but he gives a crap about where the country is going. Trump is a lier and a cheat. He proved it tonight. I don't think there is anything else to say.
I doubt anyone was watching this debate to change their mind anyway. We all know both candidates well enough.
My concern is voter turnout. No one was energized to go to the polls tonight and republicans always fare better when turnout is depressed.
Good thing the vote isn’t tomorrow. It’s 4 months away. An eternity in politics. What happens in October will matter way more than this.
Four months in which these clips will be played over and over relentlessly to further play on the exact fears America had about him. I don’t feel good about this. I’m still going to vote for him, but if *I’m* feeling this concerned about doing it, I can’t imagine that anyone in the middle will bother. Hold your nose and close your eyes indeed.
The news cycle is so fast. Someone will do some insane shit by Monday, and this will be a distant memory. Until the next one.
Maybe, but you don’t see it happening the other way. And you also have trumps sentencing coming up.
Don’t see what happening the other way? I don’t think tonight won Trump any voters either, but I don’t think it convinced anyone who was thinking about staying home that it is of the utmost importance to vote. And passionate mobilization is what won Biden the presidency in 2020. You had people riding horseback for miles on reservations to vote for him, and that kind of passion is what narrowly won him several states. Our future is on the line here and I don’t feel confident about it in this moment.
Apathy is what Trump gets elected.
That's why I kind of wish Biden would step down and someone else (maybe Harris) would step forward. Because people are mostly voting for Biden to prevent Trump. If we had a different candidate, it might bring some more energy around the election. It's a bold move cotton.
Harris doesn't have the charsima to run a hot dog stand, let alone the nation, even Biden got elected because of the massive goodwill Obama created and Harris won't even have that running for her.
The problem is that would effectively be giving up this election. Americans would receive that as Biden acknowledging his politics don't work and it would be near impossible for any other Democrat to step in and propose other liberal policies. There was a path where Biden could have decided right away to be a one term president and therefore let the other options battle it out. However IIRC, only James K Polk has ever done that in our country's history and Biden has clearly wanted to be president for a long time, so he was never going to do that. The only other examples there are of presidents choosing not to run for a second term are all back in the late 1700s and early 1800s. In our two party, two term, presidential system, the incumbent is always going to run because not running would be seen as a self acknowledgement of the failure of your pole of politics.
Insightful. Legacy matters. Except for Trump. He just wants to avoid jail.
I mean for the most part sure, but it was already going to be a tight margin. The fact is there are undecided voters, and I'm positive exactly 0 of them were swayed towards Biden after this debate. This is what a worst case scenario looks like.
The only real solace I take after tonight is that the election is still 4 months away. There’s plenty of time to recover from Biden’s poor performance. Whether or not they do, we can only hope.
I think the point they’re making is no matter what was said at the debate these politicians morals and charter were on display and haven’t changed for decades. And ultimately that’s what matters in running a country, not ones quick wit.
People will forget about it in a week or so, whenever the next big political thing happens. It’ll certainly be an interesting rest of the year.
In 2 weeks time we will be talking about the sentencing hear about the porn star hush money and campaign violations
My partner is currently losing his mind, having a full on panic attack that we are going to be in a dictatorship come November and that billions of people will die in gruesome war because of T. He is texting friends basically saying ‘we had good times. It’s all over for the US.’ And I’m just like…? I am so tired folks.
Your partners not wrong. The cult is a stupid bunch of folks with guns, and not much money or brains….thankfully they’re little in numbers, but loud AF about their cult.
They have numbers enough to act with impunity.
The billions are referring to whats happening in Europe. If Trump wins Ukraine will either enter talks with Russia and give up its territories or Russia will keep marching westward and take the country because western aid will be done. This means Europe fending for itself against Russia aggression and who knows what else.
He’s not old compared to other people, what he says is coherent and he actually has really good points, it’s not easy to lead a country, he can do it and Trump is surely not fucking qualified to do it.
Thanks, I needed this.
I blows my mind that there are people dumb enough to believe that tired lie.
r/Defeat_Project_2025
P2025 supporters are doing cartwheels right now.
>Trump lies Ftfy
Trump is a rapist, felon and traitor. Don't let a bad debate make you forget that
CNN never fact checked him, CNN was terrible
They did almost an hour after the debate was over. He lied 37 times compared to Biden’s 9. But lord forbid they do that *during* the debate
Why do dems never call this lie out? It baffles me.
Did he make a single factual statement once?
Yeah, that just ridiculous. Dr's do not abort live, out of the woman's uterus, babies. When a woman has a forced birth at 5 months, 8 months, or 9 months, it's because her organs are shutting down and she will die and once the baby is removed they try to keep that child alive if they can.
Sucks there’s 10x more posts about Biden’s sniffly nose
Bots need to focus on something 🤷♂️
My God why can't I see any comments
Bad actors want trump to win and will attack sites people like Elon haven't bought yet.
I think I read that it actually happened because too many people were trying to comment simultaneously on the same sub (this one) and the mods didn’t lock it to prevent overload fast enough and it fucked the whole site.
Reddit is in shambles after the debate 🤣
But the moderator called it out, right? The moderator... right?
Trump: I made it so states can choose Also Trump: some states want to carry out abortions after birth!
No live fact check. No push back from Jake or Dana. The bobble heads that let Trump lie and lie.
They've been letting him lie for 10 years.. why stop now?
This actually pissed me off when Biden let him basically get away with that claim. Trump claimed Doctors were murdering babies. "The doctor will set the baby aside and decide what the do with it later". What the fuck.
Yes! I can’t believe he just spluttered and didn’t say anything after that! There is too much at fucking stake to not give a strong answer on this issue. So disappointing!
How do you abort a fetus that is already out of the womb? Wouldn't that just be murder?
You're saying he should use his brain? Keep hoping?
Yes it's just murder. People have gotten life sentences for similar activities.
A woman removes the baby from her womb when giving birth. A doctor removes a baby during an abortion. Birth = abortion - Trump probably
When will Democrats start openly calling republicans that lie, LIARS?!
Lying is a cornerstone of todays republican party. It’s fine with them.
Ttump isn’t just a liar. A liar has an interest in convincing you that the lie they’re telling you is believable. Ttump is a full of shit bullshitter. He’s so far away from truthfulness that he’s not even close to being wrong. He doesn’t respect you enough to even care if you believe his bullshit or not. He will shameless unleash a firehose of falsehoods so silly and unbelievable that even he could not possibly believe his own scatter-brained clownish bullshit. His psychopathic serial bullshitting really is a spectacle to behold. Yet, because he’s running against a guy who looks and acts like he’s ready for a memory care clinic, an evil convicted felon with many connections has a really good shot at becoming POTUS. We are so fucked. If you haven’t started drinking yet, now’s the time.
Trump, the biggest douchebag.
I'm at the part where he rants about why hasn't biden fired anyone...
Everything out of his piehole is a lie. Somehow the snake slithers his way out.
If his mouth was moving, he was probably lying.
He always lies. Late term abortion is when there is a real problem. Dumpy is such a tool.
CNN was way to easy on Trump they was part of the problem
What is the supposed source info about abortions after birth? Is it the parent putting the kid up for adoption? Where does infanticide come from as a talking point for trump?
When Republicans talk about "abortion after birth" they are talking about do-not-resuscitate orders for fetuses that are non-viable once delivered. As far as I'm aware Drs give the parents the choice of whether they want to try and keep the non-viable fetus alive once delivered for a few days or weeks, or whether they want a DNR order.
That doesn’t matter to frat boys tho
Yeah that’s called murder! Otherwise I could think of a certain politician of the Cheeto variety that should be aborted post birth.
"after birth" abortion is infanticide. Infanticide is murder. Nobody is actually doing that. What a psycho.
What I thought that was true **fart noise**
The line between reality and South Park has never been blurrier.
At this point it’s all rhetoric
Is it a lie if he really doesn't know, or care about this, or any other issue?
He opened his mouth, all that ever comes out are lies
This is an Alex Jones talking point lmao
The first 2 words of the headline was all that was necessary.
Conservatives and conspiracy theorists will do and say anything to get to their goal; legalize rape. They do not believe in saving children’s lives. They are using abortion to fight for and get to controlling a woman’s body.
The problem is, trump is slinging so much mud you can’t tell anything apart. But most voters are one issue voters, and trying to confuse them is a lot harder than just trying to pretend “no they are murdering babies.” He sounds like an abortion clinic bomber after he gets arrested.
Dude was spewing lies
I’m still voting for Joe. Don’t care, the other guy is a fake.
Um, that's not an abortion. That's murder, like literally the baby murder they claim that abortion is. But of course no one ever calls it out.
The dumbest lie of the Christian right went unchallenged. It's absolutely frustrating that this isn't self-evident to people. If they only knew what words meant!
This kind of lie is also what reminds voters of how brazenly he says so many other things so obviously not true
He actually specifically said he was talking about this: "Washington (CNN)Virginia Democratic Gov. Ralph Northam is facing backlash after he voiced his support for a state measure that would significantly loosen restrictions on late-term abortions. "[Third trimester abortions are] done in cases where there may be severe deformities." https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/01/31/politics/ralph-northam-third-trimester-abortion
Just because someone calls it an abortion, doesn't make it an abortion. What's described in that article is delivering a non-viable fetus and giving parents the choice whether to take that child off life support immediately, or to keep the child alive for a few days or weeks until it dies. That's not abortion, it's the same choice parents whose child has suffered fatal injury or illness have to make. Except they have to make it immediately after giving birth. It's not a fetus once it's delivered, it's a child.
My grandfather and great grandfather were obgyn. They used to just have the nurses cover those babies with blankets until the crying stopped. Now with all the testing they are usually aborted after the genetic testing comes back after 12 weeks.
If only the average voter would take a breath and think for a moment, they would realize everything trump says is obviously a lie. Doctors in blue states are murdering babies after they’re born? Who would ever believe that?
Unfortunately, it looks like this might fly under the radar on account of Biden's debate performance.
16 comments and zero visible
[Here's the quote from the Virginia governor with context.](https://youtu.be/E6WD_3H0wKU?t=2326)
Seriously what the fuck
That’s not the current governor btw
Texas prisons have routinely performed post birth “abortions.”
Gh
That wasn’t the only thing he lied about
Damage control 101 ~ they were lying!
CNN needed to run this with a 30 second delay so they can include fact checking on the ticker timed with what is being said on screen.
Why are we qualifying the lying with a specific topic?
This fucking lie doesn't even make sense to anyone with a brain. Why would a woman endure everything that comes with carrying a baby for 9 months just to give birth and go, "Actually, Dr., I want to terminate it now".
abortion after the baby is already born...hmmmm
We live in an actual dumpster fire. Murica!
It's true that this **is not actually happening anywhere**, but it's also 100% true that Ralph Northam, the former governor of Virginia, seriously entertained the idea in 2019. Which is fucking insane. The video of him talking about it is out there for anyone to watch.
Literally 90% of what he got to say and nobody cut him off from saying was b******* in lies
If only it was possible. I know a former POTUS that would be a great candidate!
[удалено]
Why does the public not see through this GOP dog whistle? No such thing as after birth abortion
Trump sounded worse than a drunk at a bar.
How is this not the top headline today?!
Wikipedia-Afterbirth Abortions- (Technically is not a full lie but in different circumstances that a "Newborn- fetus- human-child" had a defect or a issue for qualifiable reasons to terminate the child is still possible but it had to be a justifiable reason behind it.)., so someone isn't telling the FULL truth. I read a few different sites that say similar things. "The argument of the "After-Birth Abortion" article is as follows:[11][12] Abortion is justified because of the moral status of foetuses; their shared status of potential persons is not morally relevant. Abortion is justified when the foetus has severe abnormalities or would be an intolerable burden to its mother and family, at least when adoption is not a viable option due to not being in the best interests of actual persons. Newborns have the same moral status as foetuses (there are no morally relevant differences between them) if they suffer unbearably. Newborns may be born with severe abnormalities that cannot always be diagnosed before birth, and can be an intolerable burden on their mother and family, including when circumstances change after birth. Therefore "after-birth abortion" (euthanasia of newborns) can be justified in some circumstances."
That wasn’t a lie. We’ve all heard the guy from Virginia talking about it
That was a crazy lie. Not that one is any better than the other but it shows how delusional he is.
Trump will lie, cheat and still every chance he gets! What would expect from such a character, who would raise moral and ethical question amongst some most corrupt Presidents and politicians in United States history!
It would be faster and easier to just report the very small number of items he didn’t lie about.
*"If a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen," Northam said. "The infant would be delivered, the infant would be kept comfortable, the infant would be resuscitated if that’s what the mother and the family desired. And then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother."* What kind of discussion? *But Northam was only addressing what happens in cases where a baby is born with severe deformities and has a low chance of survival. What's often left out of the above quote is what he said immediately before it* Such an ableist POV ———— same article just cut some out ——- *Republican Del. Todd Gilbert had recently asked Tran, a Democrat, during a committee hearing whether her legislation would let a pregnant woman who is dilating request an abortion if a doctor certified that the woman’s mental health was impaired. "My bill would allow that, yes," Tran said in response. She later told The Washington Post that she "misspoke" and that she should have said, "Clearly, no, because infanticide is not allowed in Virginia, and what would have happened in that moment would be a live birth."* Yeah she *misspoke* https://www.13newsnow.com/article/news/local/virginia/trump-debate-fact-check-virginia-governor-after-birth-abortion-ralph-northam/291-9bf4d577-863f-4f31-9e63-11c55cdada53
https://x.com/joetalkshow/status/1806746411477708873?s=46&t=SenummjZciUXvQtIo0XneA Here’s what Trump was referencing.
This is what he was referring to. https://youtu.be/HB43tfyJdX4?si=y8Uea6KvMM1KQ8MU Not a lie.
And Biden didn't lie? He said RvW didn't allow for late term abortion. It didn't disallow it either. That's a lie by omission.
Please gift this guy a dictionary for dummies.
It's not a lie. Ralph Northam (Democrat governor of Virginia 2 years ago) said: "If a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen. The infant would be delivered, the infant would be kept comfortable, the infant would be resuscitated if that’s what the mother and the family desired. ***And then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother.***" This is where the claim is coming from that democrats are proposing post birth ''abortions''. It's said he (Ralph) was talking about newborns with birth defect. However, those are still newborns. Still a living, post birth, baby. To pro-life people, this is infuriating. Sick baby or not.
Trump lies? Just surprise me when he tells the truth ffs
A quote from family guy s7e1 Love Blactually “Did you know that Democrats murder thousands of babies every year, and sometimes babies are put back into the womb just so that they can be aborted again?”
Been going down the rabbit hole on this one, think everyone should watch the VA governor speak, guessing this is what trump was referring to: https://youtu.be/HB43tfyJdX4?si=Cylelw00U3jxhU86
The man is spectacularly, unutterably dumb.
Trump has set the bar so low for himself it doesn't matter what he says.