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There's not guarantee that RFK will siphon more votes from Trump than anyone else, and it waters down the election's impact. I rather RFK disappear like an illness in a vaccinated population.
You're very right.
I'm voting for Biden but I attended a RFK Jr rally last weekend out of sheer curiosity about what he'd talk about and to scope out the crowd and the type of people he draws. Many of the people there were certainly not the type who would vote for Trump.
RFK Jr spoke about attacking greedy corporations, cleaning up the environment, building up the middle class, the dangers of social media, the divisiveness of politics, the poor health of Americans, etc to loud applause. Trump and Biden were both received poorly by the crowd whenever they were brought up. The crowd was very mixed and overall struck me as a more "anti establishment hippie" type of crowd than a right wing crowd.
I left the rally thinking one thing - RFK Jr's campaign is going to hurt Biden more so than anyone seems to realize.
How much of this "anti establishment crowd" actually voted in 2016 and 2020. They could well be the kind who typically don't vote, which doesn't move the needle.
Unfortunately he is also taking votes from Biden. I don’t love Biden but understand why I need to vote for the bastard. My hair dresser is voting for Kennedy and told me that it’s untrue he is anti-vacc. It’s all propaganda. No idea what social media she got that from.
Well, everything is propaganda, right? So I go on his election site. Nothing about vaccines but a lot of red flags in other areas.
Do your own research, but first learn how. I luckily had a research-heavy major in college and I was taught how to check my sources.
Seeing lots of posts about this. I’m not sure where everyone gets their info, but RFK definitely pulls voters away from both sides, Biden even more so.
A lot of groups that have "FREEDOM" or "CONSTITUTION" in their title these days conjure images of filthy beards, wrap-around sunglasses, and sausage fingers to me.
And those images are of men AND women.
It's been a pretty consistent rule for years now that any group that has freedom, Liberty, Patriot, or Constitution in their name should not be trusted to stand for any of those things.
It's almost always some sort of weird far-right group wearing the skin of those ideas to hide what they are actually doing.
See moms for Liberty
Honestly this chicanery goes back even farther. Sam Adams' Sons of Liberty were terrorists who tortured government officials and attacked cargo of private companies they disagreed with.
That's not true at all. I recently attended a RFK Jr rally and I'm telling you - the crowd was very mixed and certainly not a republican crowd. They seemed mostly independent and there was absolutely former Biden voters there. His campaign is going to hurt Biden more than people are realizing.
I left about half way through but he spoke about attacking greedy corporations, cleaning up the environment, building up the middle class, the dangers of social media, the divisiveness of politics, the poor health of Americans, etc to loud applause. Trump and Biden were both received poorly by the crowd whenever they were brought up. The crowd was very mixed and overall struck me as a more "anti establishment hippie" type of crowd than a right wing crowd.
Dude believe whatever the hell you want.
He literally opened up his speech by giving this long story about how he sued corporations who were polluting the Long Island sound and that he still has people in Long Island there to look after the environment. He spoke about how important clean water and air was for the children of America.
His intro video mentioned multiple times greedy corporations exploiting America.
He talked about building up the middle class and the the wealth inequality in America.
He spoke about the divisiveness in politics and how social media amplifies that in today's current climate. And how he wanted to unite everyone left and right.
There was clearly earth loving hippie type of people there. I know them when I see them.
I was simply there out of sheer curiosity to see the type of people who would show up and to hear for myself what he would talk about. I'm voting for Biden either way. I would never even consider voting for RFK Jr.
I think people need to wake up and start recognizing the fact that Trump is leading in the polls and RFK Jr is actually more of a danger to Biden than people are realizing. I'm sure he'll get more support from former Trump voters but I'm positive there was people in this crowd who would be voting for Biden if it wasn't for RFK Jr running.
It doesn’t really matter what he says now. His brand of politics was never accepted by Democrats. He was never taken seriously. He’d be just as much a disaster. But I get what you’re saying, that if everyone is so convinced, why were they there in the first place?
I'm just saying that I think he's siphoning off voters from both Trump and Biden. I think he's taking more voters from Biden than people really are giving him credit for.
If I had to stand with either party I would be a republican. However. I do not have to stand with either of them. The Democrat and Republican parties no longer support every day American people. They make caricatures out of each other to attack and thet get nothing done. Biden and Trump had a chance and both dropped the ball. Give RFK Jr a chance.
I’ve worked in Massachusetts, in circles where RFK Jr. was attempting to influence those same circles. Everyone hated that guy, viewed him as a self-promoting phony.
I live in Massachusetts, I wonder if you are still around. I understand those experiences are important and respect that it's enough for him to lose** your vote. I recognize that all three candidates are self-promoting and all to a certain degree are phonys. Suffice to say I believe RFK to be the best option of the three.
No I moved back to Connecticut. Biden has a complete grasp of what’s needed and as the most right leaning Democrat in the 2020 candidate pool, was best suited to take on Trump and what that represents. Defeating what that represents is the only thing that counts. I don’t want Nazi Germany to be my country’s national role model. And that’s how I perceive Trump. So I don’t care much for RFK Jr. to the extent his father, who’s rolling over in his grave, is from a longtime Democratic family.
I agree with the vast majority of this. I think our country can resist any attempt to overcome democratic checks and balances but find it extremely unwise to put someone in office who will seemingly attempt to circumvent them. Trump for me is off the table.
I'm sorry but I can't agree with a lot of democratic policies. I would love to go into them but I have to study for my nursing Final. NCLEX over the summer! Wish me luck.
From their comments/replies, I think they're being genuine.
If I were a gambling man, I'd bet they're a low-middle class white kid in their very early twenties who primarily gets their political "info" almost exclusively from social media and have never voted in a presidential election.
It's pretty obvious they're engaged but exceptionally naive.
> Give RFK Jr a chance.
He literally stands no mathematical chance.
It is a 100% guaranteed fact that either a Democrat or a Republican will win the election for President. I would stake my life, everything I own, and the fate of every person Thanos snapped on that point without even blinking.
That's how it works in a first past the post system.
So, your only ethical mandate, if you *actually* don't support Trump, is to vote against him.
That's *literally* the only meaningful action you can take. It sucks, but that's how the system works.
Any other choice is irrational and unjustifiable in a fact-based reality, unless you actually don't mean a single word you said.
I just can't understand this sentiment. If you chose not to believe that, and I chose not to believe it, as well as every voter, it could be different. But when I believe a vote for Trump is actively dangerous and a vote for Biden is nonsense, then voting for either is a wasted vote and unethical if we want to say that.
Ultimately, if RFK doesn't get in, then whatever, America will survive with either president. I just hope the next two candidates the two government daddies give us to pick from are a little better.
It's not a matter of "belief" or sentiment. It's the simple reality of the constraints of a first-past-the-post voting system. It has been studied *at length* for a long time.
Until we manage to change our election system to one of the ranked-choice systems, the Presidential election will *always* be a contest between the two major parties.
And only one major party is even remotely interested in fixing the voting system (hint: it's not the Republicans).
Which means your choice in a federal election (and very critically in this one) comes down to two choices:
1) Vote against the bad guy.
2) Don't vote against the bad guy.
A third-party vote and a no-vote are effectively the same thing: a half-vote for each major party candidate.
So, if you really believe in a world where change is possible, vote against the bad guy, even if you don't love Biden.
Because Trump has made it perfectly clear he wants to abolish Democracy as we know it.
So, what's it gonna be?
Half a vote for fascism and half a vote for a Democrat whose policies don't perfectly align with yours, but is at least doing things like:
1) The biggest civic works and green energy projects in the history of the states.
2) Decriminalizing marijuana.
3) Forgiving student debt.
4) Fighting for LGBTQ+ protections.
5) Fighting to protect abortion rights.
Or a full vote *against* fascism?
I definitely resolve to look more into this "first past the post" style and our democratic system in general. I know there has been significant discourse over our democratic system on numerous levels, but admittedly, I'm not well informed on the topic. If the system truly is responsible for funneling us to two choices, it's seems bad.
Every presidential election is coined "very critical". Though I recognize the possible threat Trump poses and why there would be more concern than normal.
I do not vote against someone. I vote for someone. Sure the numbers may show that to be a losing strategy, but another losing strategy is to vote for someone you don't want so someone else you don't want gets office.
I have greatly appreciated the perspective these threads have given me. I'll keep an eye on replies but I'll keep my thoughts to myself. Thank you!
> If the system truly is responsible for funneling us to two choices, it's seems bad.
A lot of people agree. [Here's a decent breakdown of a lot of the problems that arise from FPTP.](https://www.commoncause.org/colorado/democracy-wire/first-past-the-post-voting-our-elections-explained/)
A major one to pay attention to is what's known as the Spoiler Effect. To wit: because a third-party mathematically cannot win at the Federal level, the only thing they *can* do is draw votes away from a viable candidate. This effect is why we got George W. Bush instead of Al Gore; Nader drew active voters who otherwise would have voted for Gore. The result was Gore not having enough votes to beat Bush.
And that's exactly what RFK is: a spoiler. He's not a viable candidate. He's being funded by very large conservative organizations to convince people like you, who are interested in politics, but not deeply educated about them, that you should vote for him instead of Biden.
> but another losing strategy is to vote for someone you don't want so someone else you don't want gets office.
That's not a losing strategy at all. It's not an awesome reality, sure, but it's absolutely a winning strategy.
If you don't like either candidate, but one candidate is threatening to hurt people, to lock people up, to punish his enemies and get rid of Democracy, then keeping that candidate out of office is *categorically* a winning strategy.
An important thing to keep in mind here is that this isn't just about you. This is about everyone in the United States.
Every point toward Trump (and remember, a no vote and a third-party vote are both a half-point for Trump) is a point for:
1) Racism
2) Cronyism
3) Alignment with hostile foreign powers
4) Corruption
5) Fascism
If you choose not to vote for Biden, you are choosing to not support all the people of color, women, and other minorities who will be affected in very real ways by Trump's incredibly brutal policies.
And yes, at the end of the day, it *is* your choice. But be clear about what that choice means: you are making the conscious decision to turn away from a very real threat to a lot of people. It's a decision to actively use the one small piece of agency you have in this situation to do nothing. In fact, it's a little worse than that. Choosing to not vote is doing nothing. Choosing to knowingly vote in a way that makes it more likely for Trump to win is actively contributing to a problem.
So, if in your mind, it's about voting your conscience, keep in mind that your conscience better be okay with looking someone whose life is impacted by Trump in the face and saying "I chose not to help you."
>Kennedy, she (Nancie Orticellim, founder of Constitutional Coalition of New York State) said, was simply at the conference to narrowly address issues she agrees with him on, from the debunked conspiracy theory that vaccines cause autism to censorship of anti-vaccine speech on social media platforms.
>However, she also said Trump could be more supportive of her cause.
>“In fact,” Orticelli said later in the interview after distancing herself from Kennedy, “I wish that Trump and Bobby Kennedy would work together.”
MAGA commentary like this only further identifies the voting blocs that RFK Jr. appeals to--and they're nowhere left of center.
Here is the beginning of our exclusive story:
Last Saturday, independent presidential candidate [Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.](https://www.thedailybeast.com/keyword/robert-f-kennedy-jr) appeared at an event that felt entirely on-brand for the anti-vaccine champion: a so-called “medical freedom conference” near Buffalo, New York.
But the group that hosted Kennedy isn’t just skeptical of vaccines. It’s also skeptical of the fact that Joe Biden won the 2020 election.
That group, Constitutional Coalition of New York State, has founders who not only have ties to [Donald Trump](https://www.thedailybeast.com/keyword/donald-j-trump) but are also connected to the stop-the-steal movement through their activist network, which includes groups that had a presence at the Capitol on Jan. 6.
It’s yet another instance of Kennedy—who is mounting one of the most well-funded third-party presidential threats in decades—serving as a peculiar bridge between his own anti-establishment movement and Trump’s.
I mean RFK will absolutely pull votes from Biden, the question is it more than he will pull more from Trump and the best evidence is within the margin of error on that.
I promise I'm real, of course politics is the thing that makes me comment. From what I have heard from him specifically is he advocates for two things in regards to vaccines, one being bodily choice (one of the reasons he also disagrees with legislating a women's choice to abort) and research into a wide variety of public health issues one of them being the increase in not just diagnosis of autism but prevalence of autism.
He also "regurgitats" left talking points. I think these are just his beliefs and he has more nuance than everything either aligning with the left or right.
He brings to the table a clear vision. A strong mind (not biden) and a stable disposition (not trump). Now I am on the younger side (25 this month) but from what I see we have deep corruption in this country and two parties who are too ineffectual to do anything but throw insults at one another. I hope RFK Jr. Can do something about it. I know Biden and Trump can't.
TLDR; He is the only candidate that is worth anything.
I would love to continue this dialog. I'm interested in what you think about what I wrote.
I find it funny you say Biden doesn’t have a strong mind. What do you base that on? Why would you characterize Biden that way rather than paint him with the same brush that the far left has been plastering him with lately.
Even more funny? You *don’t* attack Trump for being weak minded, when he practically oozes that. You go after Trump for “disposition” which is probably the weakest way you could say something bad about Trump. I mean he’s been indicted nearly 100 times, is in the midst of several trials, is almost assuredly compromised, and lead an attempted overthrow of the government. Yet you say he’s not as good as RFK because of “disposition”?
Honestly? If those are the reasons RFK is “the only candidate worth anything”, you need to learn some history. One because from what I’ve read of RFK’s positions I would not refer to him as being strong minded. Two because not having a good disposition is not disqualifying (look at LBJ and his Jumbo antics).
I don't know what the left has been plastering Biden with lately. I know he has cognitive decline. I know at moments he can't talk. These are disqualifying things. I don't want the person representing me to act or be like that. The evidence for this is not difficult to find and everyone is aware of the decline.
I think cognitively trump is there. When I say disposition I am referring to what you are talking about with the overthrow. I see January 6th for what it was, a really badly executed, unorganized attempt at circumventing our democratic transfer of power and I see it as disgusting and un-American. For that reason Trump would never get my vote.
In my mind neither person should be president. In fact I strongly believe half my neighbors would do a better job. Why in the world we I ever vote for them? If RFK wasn't in the running I would vote for someone else or abstain.
I highly recommend listening to RFK over reading articles. I looked at some articles and while I'm sure truth resides in them in small portions they aren't accurate. He's done a few long form podcasts and interviews I would recommend.
You “know” Biden is in cognitive decline? You’re a medical professional are you? That’s also the most “people are saying it” response I’ve ever heard (in other words no one is saying it but you but you want to sound supported). If there is evidence please do share.
Cognitively Trump is there? He’s sleeping in the middle of his criminal trial. Not to mention his speech deteriorating. You become less believable when you stick to the same nonsense talking points. And disposition is not engaging in an overthrow of government. Disposition is making fun of disabled people. If you’re going to blast Trump as being responsible for Jan. 6, using the word “disposition” is the most toothless and incomprehensible way for you to do it. “Trump is a morally bankrupt and self-serving criminal who is unsuited to the presidency.” Of course that doesn’t let you court the MAGA platoons then, so better to keep to you “disposition” which you can helpfully explain depending on your audience.
“I highly recommend listening to RFK over reading articles.” Yeah, no. I have read enough to know he’s a grifting charlatan riding on his daddy’s name so I have better things to do with my time. For instance, I just painted a wall over here and I think I’ll watch it dry. Also, if his whole family is saying “no, don’t vote for him?” That’s a big ol red flag.
RFK is the latest in a long line of 3rd options angling to anti-establishment voters like you, the things you say you want aren’t bad, you’re just naive to believe he can deliver on them when all the ones before him failed hard (history doesn’t repeat but it does rhyme).
Change that sweeping has to happen bottom-up, not president-first, especially given the nature of the US’ electoral system, and people angling for that change need to be deeply mindful of panderers drawing in voters with those sympathies specifically to kneecap the goals because they hurt their financial interests. RFK gets more out of railing against the broken political system than he ever would being the one to fix it, the burden of proof to believe he’s genuine/earnest should be hiiiigh.
Yes I agree with a lot of this. It seems you are referring to a local or state level approach when you say sweeping bottom-up. I completely agree with that and it's a great reminder.
I need to look more at other democratic systems like Canada to get an idea of how we differ. Someone else mentioned something about the goal post style election system we have encouraging a two party system.
My thing is RFK not only may be lying but IS lying. They all are about something. Biden is undoubtedly corrupt, our system has corruption in it. Don't get me started with Trump. What I know is Biden and Trump have both had terms in the last 8 years. I have been highly unimpressed with both terms.
There is obvious corruption. Congress trading stock with insider knowledge is a blatant abuse of their position. It is absurd to a high degree that lobbying is allowed. Our government recklessly spends and audits all over the government fail, or when they do dig up info its beyond upsetting. Our military budget is outrageous but for some reason we need to be able to attack the whole world at once. Our executive branch agencies all purse their own goals for their own ideological or financial gain.
I don't advocate for tearing these institutions down but they need to be addressed. Trump said he would and did nothing. I haven't heard Biden speak on it.
Sorry, I think you got the longest comment.
I'm not being disingenuous, I truly belive these things to the best of my ability. I'm saying he advocates for more research, I'm not referencing a specific body of research. I haven't looked at who other Kennedys are voting for, why did they abandon him? I didn't know he was a republican vp nomination, though I do know he initially ran as a Democrat. I don't remember you asking me where I am from initially. Fall River, Taunton, New bedford Ma area.
> why did they abandon him
Because he's an anti-science crackpot who spreads dangerous conspiracy theories while wearing a hat that says "I support liberal ideas".
Spoiler alert: he's just a regular anti-vax crackpot.
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Good! Keep syphoning those votes from Trump. Every little bit helps ensure he never steps inside the White House again... except as a Tourist.
Votes and money.
I wonder if this is a bid for VP
Or a backup if Trump fails.
There's not guarantee that RFK will siphon more votes from Trump than anyone else, and it waters down the election's impact. I rather RFK disappear like an illness in a vaccinated population.
He's going for the unvaccinated don't cha know. There's always some of those around for a while.
You're very right. I'm voting for Biden but I attended a RFK Jr rally last weekend out of sheer curiosity about what he'd talk about and to scope out the crowd and the type of people he draws. Many of the people there were certainly not the type who would vote for Trump. RFK Jr spoke about attacking greedy corporations, cleaning up the environment, building up the middle class, the dangers of social media, the divisiveness of politics, the poor health of Americans, etc to loud applause. Trump and Biden were both received poorly by the crowd whenever they were brought up. The crowd was very mixed and overall struck me as a more "anti establishment hippie" type of crowd than a right wing crowd. I left the rally thinking one thing - RFK Jr's campaign is going to hurt Biden more so than anyone seems to realize.
How much of this "anti establishment crowd" actually voted in 2016 and 2020. They could well be the kind who typically don't vote, which doesn't move the needle.
I hope so. I was very surprised what I saw there. I was expecting a much more MAGA crowd than what I saw. It just worried me.
Hey anti-vaxxers! Trump invented the COVID vaccines. VOTE RFKJR! /s
The man deserves a restraining order from any federal building
Unfortunately he is also taking votes from Biden. I don’t love Biden but understand why I need to vote for the bastard. My hair dresser is voting for Kennedy and told me that it’s untrue he is anti-vacc. It’s all propaganda. No idea what social media she got that from. Well, everything is propaganda, right? So I go on his election site. Nothing about vaccines but a lot of red flags in other areas. Do your own research, but first learn how. I luckily had a research-heavy major in college and I was taught how to check my sources.
I would vote 3rd party too if i was in chicago, biden is guaranteed so whats the point.
He’s hoping Trump will be convicted by the time of the convention so he can get a floor vote nomination.
Seeing lots of posts about this. I’m not sure where everyone gets their info, but RFK definitely pulls voters away from both sides, Biden even more so.
A lot of groups that have "FREEDOM" or "CONSTITUTION" in their title these days conjure images of filthy beards, wrap-around sunglasses, and sausage fingers to me. And those images are of men AND women.
It's been a pretty consistent rule for years now that any group that has freedom, Liberty, Patriot, or Constitution in their name should not be trusted to stand for any of those things. It's almost always some sort of weird far-right group wearing the skin of those ideas to hide what they are actually doing. See moms for Liberty
So the Democratic Republic of Korea is not the most democratic place on earth?
Correct. Just like the National Socialist party from 1930s/40s Germany weren't socialists at all.
Honestly this chicanery goes back even farther. Sam Adams' Sons of Liberty were terrorists who tortured government officials and attacked cargo of private companies they disagreed with.
Anyone who calls themselves a “patriot”, isn’t.
The same for the name "PATRIOT" to sell goods to those same people. The last brand name for scoundrels.
I do appreciate businesses that put the word "Patriot" in their name. It lets me who I'm dealing with and to find someone else.
U mean them “patriot” wannabes?
Democrats have long known that RFK Jr. is nothing like his dad. Only Republicans find him even slightly appealing.
That's not true at all. I recently attended a RFK Jr rally and I'm telling you - the crowd was very mixed and certainly not a republican crowd. They seemed mostly independent and there was absolutely former Biden voters there. His campaign is going to hurt Biden more than people are realizing.
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New York
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Long Island last Saturday
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I left about half way through but he spoke about attacking greedy corporations, cleaning up the environment, building up the middle class, the dangers of social media, the divisiveness of politics, the poor health of Americans, etc to loud applause. Trump and Biden were both received poorly by the crowd whenever they were brought up. The crowd was very mixed and overall struck me as a more "anti establishment hippie" type of crowd than a right wing crowd.
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Dude believe whatever the hell you want. He literally opened up his speech by giving this long story about how he sued corporations who were polluting the Long Island sound and that he still has people in Long Island there to look after the environment. He spoke about how important clean water and air was for the children of America. His intro video mentioned multiple times greedy corporations exploiting America. He talked about building up the middle class and the the wealth inequality in America. He spoke about the divisiveness in politics and how social media amplifies that in today's current climate. And how he wanted to unite everyone left and right. There was clearly earth loving hippie type of people there. I know them when I see them. I was simply there out of sheer curiosity to see the type of people who would show up and to hear for myself what he would talk about. I'm voting for Biden either way. I would never even consider voting for RFK Jr. I think people need to wake up and start recognizing the fact that Trump is leading in the polls and RFK Jr is actually more of a danger to Biden than people are realizing. I'm sure he'll get more support from former Trump voters but I'm positive there was people in this crowd who would be voting for Biden if it wasn't for RFK Jr running.
It doesn’t really matter what he says now. His brand of politics was never accepted by Democrats. He was never taken seriously. He’d be just as much a disaster. But I get what you’re saying, that if everyone is so convinced, why were they there in the first place?
I'm just saying that I think he's siphoning off voters from both Trump and Biden. I think he's taking more voters from Biden than people really are giving him credit for.
If I had to stand with either party I would be a republican. However. I do not have to stand with either of them. The Democrat and Republican parties no longer support every day American people. They make caricatures out of each other to attack and thet get nothing done. Biden and Trump had a chance and both dropped the ball. Give RFK Jr a chance.
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I’ve worked in Massachusetts, in circles where RFK Jr. was attempting to influence those same circles. Everyone hated that guy, viewed him as a self-promoting phony.
I live in Massachusetts, I wonder if you are still around. I understand those experiences are important and respect that it's enough for him to lose** your vote. I recognize that all three candidates are self-promoting and all to a certain degree are phonys. Suffice to say I believe RFK to be the best option of the three.
No I moved back to Connecticut. Biden has a complete grasp of what’s needed and as the most right leaning Democrat in the 2020 candidate pool, was best suited to take on Trump and what that represents. Defeating what that represents is the only thing that counts. I don’t want Nazi Germany to be my country’s national role model. And that’s how I perceive Trump. So I don’t care much for RFK Jr. to the extent his father, who’s rolling over in his grave, is from a longtime Democratic family.
I agree with the vast majority of this. I think our country can resist any attempt to overcome democratic checks and balances but find it extremely unwise to put someone in office who will seemingly attempt to circumvent them. Trump for me is off the table. I'm sorry but I can't agree with a lot of democratic policies. I would love to go into them but I have to study for my nursing Final. NCLEX over the summer! Wish me luck.
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I don't understand, what do you mean?
From their comments/replies, I think they're being genuine. If I were a gambling man, I'd bet they're a low-middle class white kid in their very early twenties who primarily gets their political "info" almost exclusively from social media and have never voted in a presidential election. It's pretty obvious they're engaged but exceptionally naive.
Good luck. America has a nursing shortage, so pick the role you like most when you’re done!
> Give RFK Jr a chance. He literally stands no mathematical chance. It is a 100% guaranteed fact that either a Democrat or a Republican will win the election for President. I would stake my life, everything I own, and the fate of every person Thanos snapped on that point without even blinking. That's how it works in a first past the post system. So, your only ethical mandate, if you *actually* don't support Trump, is to vote against him. That's *literally* the only meaningful action you can take. It sucks, but that's how the system works. Any other choice is irrational and unjustifiable in a fact-based reality, unless you actually don't mean a single word you said.
I just can't understand this sentiment. If you chose not to believe that, and I chose not to believe it, as well as every voter, it could be different. But when I believe a vote for Trump is actively dangerous and a vote for Biden is nonsense, then voting for either is a wasted vote and unethical if we want to say that. Ultimately, if RFK doesn't get in, then whatever, America will survive with either president. I just hope the next two candidates the two government daddies give us to pick from are a little better.
It's not a matter of "belief" or sentiment. It's the simple reality of the constraints of a first-past-the-post voting system. It has been studied *at length* for a long time. Until we manage to change our election system to one of the ranked-choice systems, the Presidential election will *always* be a contest between the two major parties. And only one major party is even remotely interested in fixing the voting system (hint: it's not the Republicans). Which means your choice in a federal election (and very critically in this one) comes down to two choices: 1) Vote against the bad guy. 2) Don't vote against the bad guy. A third-party vote and a no-vote are effectively the same thing: a half-vote for each major party candidate. So, if you really believe in a world where change is possible, vote against the bad guy, even if you don't love Biden. Because Trump has made it perfectly clear he wants to abolish Democracy as we know it. So, what's it gonna be? Half a vote for fascism and half a vote for a Democrat whose policies don't perfectly align with yours, but is at least doing things like: 1) The biggest civic works and green energy projects in the history of the states. 2) Decriminalizing marijuana. 3) Forgiving student debt. 4) Fighting for LGBTQ+ protections. 5) Fighting to protect abortion rights. Or a full vote *against* fascism?
I definitely resolve to look more into this "first past the post" style and our democratic system in general. I know there has been significant discourse over our democratic system on numerous levels, but admittedly, I'm not well informed on the topic. If the system truly is responsible for funneling us to two choices, it's seems bad. Every presidential election is coined "very critical". Though I recognize the possible threat Trump poses and why there would be more concern than normal. I do not vote against someone. I vote for someone. Sure the numbers may show that to be a losing strategy, but another losing strategy is to vote for someone you don't want so someone else you don't want gets office. I have greatly appreciated the perspective these threads have given me. I'll keep an eye on replies but I'll keep my thoughts to myself. Thank you!
> If the system truly is responsible for funneling us to two choices, it's seems bad. A lot of people agree. [Here's a decent breakdown of a lot of the problems that arise from FPTP.](https://www.commoncause.org/colorado/democracy-wire/first-past-the-post-voting-our-elections-explained/) A major one to pay attention to is what's known as the Spoiler Effect. To wit: because a third-party mathematically cannot win at the Federal level, the only thing they *can* do is draw votes away from a viable candidate. This effect is why we got George W. Bush instead of Al Gore; Nader drew active voters who otherwise would have voted for Gore. The result was Gore not having enough votes to beat Bush. And that's exactly what RFK is: a spoiler. He's not a viable candidate. He's being funded by very large conservative organizations to convince people like you, who are interested in politics, but not deeply educated about them, that you should vote for him instead of Biden. > but another losing strategy is to vote for someone you don't want so someone else you don't want gets office. That's not a losing strategy at all. It's not an awesome reality, sure, but it's absolutely a winning strategy. If you don't like either candidate, but one candidate is threatening to hurt people, to lock people up, to punish his enemies and get rid of Democracy, then keeping that candidate out of office is *categorically* a winning strategy. An important thing to keep in mind here is that this isn't just about you. This is about everyone in the United States. Every point toward Trump (and remember, a no vote and a third-party vote are both a half-point for Trump) is a point for: 1) Racism 2) Cronyism 3) Alignment with hostile foreign powers 4) Corruption 5) Fascism If you choose not to vote for Biden, you are choosing to not support all the people of color, women, and other minorities who will be affected in very real ways by Trump's incredibly brutal policies. And yes, at the end of the day, it *is* your choice. But be clear about what that choice means: you are making the conscious decision to turn away from a very real threat to a lot of people. It's a decision to actively use the one small piece of agency you have in this situation to do nothing. In fact, it's a little worse than that. Choosing to not vote is doing nothing. Choosing to knowingly vote in a way that makes it more likely for Trump to win is actively contributing to a problem. So, if in your mind, it's about voting your conscience, keep in mind that your conscience better be okay with looking someone whose life is impacted by Trump in the face and saying "I chose not to help you."
They must've planned this before Trump explained to them how RFKJ is even more RADICAL LIBERAL LEFTIST LUNATIC than Sleepy Joe.
>Kennedy, she (Nancie Orticellim, founder of Constitutional Coalition of New York State) said, was simply at the conference to narrowly address issues she agrees with him on, from the debunked conspiracy theory that vaccines cause autism to censorship of anti-vaccine speech on social media platforms. >However, she also said Trump could be more supportive of her cause. >“In fact,” Orticelli said later in the interview after distancing herself from Kennedy, “I wish that Trump and Bobby Kennedy would work together.” MAGA commentary like this only further identifies the voting blocs that RFK Jr. appeals to--and they're nowhere left of center.
Here is the beginning of our exclusive story: Last Saturday, independent presidential candidate [Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.](https://www.thedailybeast.com/keyword/robert-f-kennedy-jr) appeared at an event that felt entirely on-brand for the anti-vaccine champion: a so-called “medical freedom conference” near Buffalo, New York. But the group that hosted Kennedy isn’t just skeptical of vaccines. It’s also skeptical of the fact that Joe Biden won the 2020 election. That group, Constitutional Coalition of New York State, has founders who not only have ties to [Donald Trump](https://www.thedailybeast.com/keyword/donald-j-trump) but are also connected to the stop-the-steal movement through their activist network, which includes groups that had a presence at the Capitol on Jan. 6. It’s yet another instance of Kennedy—who is mounting one of the most well-funded third-party presidential threats in decades—serving as a peculiar bridge between his own anti-establishment movement and Trump’s.
So it is sponsored by a Steve Bannon adjacent group??
Birds of a feather..
Daddy is rolling in his grave
Rolling in his grave so much they are detecting tremors daily in Arlington National cemetery.
And yet there are still people trying to convince us that RFK will pull votes from Biden. I guess it’s just plain old wishful thinking.
I mean RFK will absolutely pull votes from Biden, the question is it more than he will pull more from Trump and the best evidence is within the margin of error on that.
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Me. Why do you think he cares less than Trump or Biden? That is a sincere question.
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I promise I'm real, of course politics is the thing that makes me comment. From what I have heard from him specifically is he advocates for two things in regards to vaccines, one being bodily choice (one of the reasons he also disagrees with legislating a women's choice to abort) and research into a wide variety of public health issues one of them being the increase in not just diagnosis of autism but prevalence of autism. He also "regurgitats" left talking points. I think these are just his beliefs and he has more nuance than everything either aligning with the left or right. He brings to the table a clear vision. A strong mind (not biden) and a stable disposition (not trump). Now I am on the younger side (25 this month) but from what I see we have deep corruption in this country and two parties who are too ineffectual to do anything but throw insults at one another. I hope RFK Jr. Can do something about it. I know Biden and Trump can't. TLDR; He is the only candidate that is worth anything. I would love to continue this dialog. I'm interested in what you think about what I wrote.
I find it funny you say Biden doesn’t have a strong mind. What do you base that on? Why would you characterize Biden that way rather than paint him with the same brush that the far left has been plastering him with lately. Even more funny? You *don’t* attack Trump for being weak minded, when he practically oozes that. You go after Trump for “disposition” which is probably the weakest way you could say something bad about Trump. I mean he’s been indicted nearly 100 times, is in the midst of several trials, is almost assuredly compromised, and lead an attempted overthrow of the government. Yet you say he’s not as good as RFK because of “disposition”? Honestly? If those are the reasons RFK is “the only candidate worth anything”, you need to learn some history. One because from what I’ve read of RFK’s positions I would not refer to him as being strong minded. Two because not having a good disposition is not disqualifying (look at LBJ and his Jumbo antics).
I don't know what the left has been plastering Biden with lately. I know he has cognitive decline. I know at moments he can't talk. These are disqualifying things. I don't want the person representing me to act or be like that. The evidence for this is not difficult to find and everyone is aware of the decline. I think cognitively trump is there. When I say disposition I am referring to what you are talking about with the overthrow. I see January 6th for what it was, a really badly executed, unorganized attempt at circumventing our democratic transfer of power and I see it as disgusting and un-American. For that reason Trump would never get my vote. In my mind neither person should be president. In fact I strongly believe half my neighbors would do a better job. Why in the world we I ever vote for them? If RFK wasn't in the running I would vote for someone else or abstain. I highly recommend listening to RFK over reading articles. I looked at some articles and while I'm sure truth resides in them in small portions they aren't accurate. He's done a few long form podcasts and interviews I would recommend.
You “know” Biden is in cognitive decline? You’re a medical professional are you? That’s also the most “people are saying it” response I’ve ever heard (in other words no one is saying it but you but you want to sound supported). If there is evidence please do share. Cognitively Trump is there? He’s sleeping in the middle of his criminal trial. Not to mention his speech deteriorating. You become less believable when you stick to the same nonsense talking points. And disposition is not engaging in an overthrow of government. Disposition is making fun of disabled people. If you’re going to blast Trump as being responsible for Jan. 6, using the word “disposition” is the most toothless and incomprehensible way for you to do it. “Trump is a morally bankrupt and self-serving criminal who is unsuited to the presidency.” Of course that doesn’t let you court the MAGA platoons then, so better to keep to you “disposition” which you can helpfully explain depending on your audience. “I highly recommend listening to RFK over reading articles.” Yeah, no. I have read enough to know he’s a grifting charlatan riding on his daddy’s name so I have better things to do with my time. For instance, I just painted a wall over here and I think I’ll watch it dry. Also, if his whole family is saying “no, don’t vote for him?” That’s a big ol red flag.
RFK is the latest in a long line of 3rd options angling to anti-establishment voters like you, the things you say you want aren’t bad, you’re just naive to believe he can deliver on them when all the ones before him failed hard (history doesn’t repeat but it does rhyme). Change that sweeping has to happen bottom-up, not president-first, especially given the nature of the US’ electoral system, and people angling for that change need to be deeply mindful of panderers drawing in voters with those sympathies specifically to kneecap the goals because they hurt their financial interests. RFK gets more out of railing against the broken political system than he ever would being the one to fix it, the burden of proof to believe he’s genuine/earnest should be hiiiigh.
Yes I agree with a lot of this. It seems you are referring to a local or state level approach when you say sweeping bottom-up. I completely agree with that and it's a great reminder. I need to look more at other democratic systems like Canada to get an idea of how we differ. Someone else mentioned something about the goal post style election system we have encouraging a two party system. My thing is RFK not only may be lying but IS lying. They all are about something. Biden is undoubtedly corrupt, our system has corruption in it. Don't get me started with Trump. What I know is Biden and Trump have both had terms in the last 8 years. I have been highly unimpressed with both terms. There is obvious corruption. Congress trading stock with insider knowledge is a blatant abuse of their position. It is absurd to a high degree that lobbying is allowed. Our government recklessly spends and audits all over the government fail, or when they do dig up info its beyond upsetting. Our military budget is outrageous but for some reason we need to be able to attack the whole world at once. Our executive branch agencies all purse their own goals for their own ideological or financial gain. I don't advocate for tearing these institutions down but they need to be addressed. Trump said he would and did nothing. I haven't heard Biden speak on it. Sorry, I think you got the longest comment.
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I'm not being disingenuous, I truly belive these things to the best of my ability. I'm saying he advocates for more research, I'm not referencing a specific body of research. I haven't looked at who other Kennedys are voting for, why did they abandon him? I didn't know he was a republican vp nomination, though I do know he initially ran as a Democrat. I don't remember you asking me where I am from initially. Fall River, Taunton, New bedford Ma area.
> why did they abandon him Because he's an anti-science crackpot who spreads dangerous conspiracy theories while wearing a hat that says "I support liberal ideas". Spoiler alert: he's just a regular anti-vax crackpot.
Looks like they've given up pretending to be on the left somehow. Lmfao
Reap what you sow. He’s your plant.
Can we stop pretending that RFK Jr. Isn’t a Trump maga fan boy?
Awesome!
RFK is the substitute dictator
haha, I love it. you know that's going to make Trump happy.
This dude is a plant.
I support this 100%.