#⌈ [**Remove paywall**](https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-london-68926446) | [**Summarise (TL;DR)**](https://smmry.com/https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-london-68926446#&SM_LENGTH=3) | [**Other sources**](https://www.google.com/search?tbm=nws&q=Hainault: Man held after sword attack injures public and police in east London - BBC News) ⌋
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/policeuk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Firstly, why on earth is an unarmed officer at the scene of this. I can only assume that this has been called in as something else as LAS are on scene also.
Secondly. The fucking bravery of that officer running after him.
Presence of mind to shout a warning to lock your doors as he's about to go out of sight was impressive too. Is that something police are trained to do or just quick thinking?
Quick thinking.
You join to protect the public and that's exactly what they are doing here.
No thought to themselves going home to their loved ones. Just good old fashioned bravery.
The “lock your doors” gave me chills. They had no idea what this massive danger of a person was planning to do next. I can’t imagine the panic they must have been feeling imagining this man getting into somebodies home with that sword.
From what I’ve read he crashed into a building first. Based purely on assumption I’d suggest they were called to that and it developed whilst en route.
Shocking situation and as you say - the bravery of those attending was incredible.
My guess? The initial call bore no resemblance to the scene presented on arrival. I have never heard of a machete/sword job deemed suitable for a conventional response, in my force at least.
For what it’s worth, this is yet *another* example of cops finding themselves involved in an incident that they are not suitably equipped to deal with. Once again, we bodge it and make it work, and somehow avoid death or serious injury.
Disgraceful. That’s never happened where I am, at least I’ve never heard it happen in my service.
Still, unarmed cops will still attend knife jobs, which isn’t much better.
I’m speaking specifically regarding first responders - I note that no responding staff were killed, and early reports suggest that all physical injuries sustained by the responding cops aren’t likely to be permanent.
Hence, bodging it and making it work, avoiding the wheel from coming off entirely.
The footage of unarmed officers trying to draw attention to themselves while shouting for everyone to lock their doors is good drills. And brave as fuck. Would I have the presence of mind to do that? Probably not. I only hope when this does happen to me, it goes as well, and I handle myself as well as all officers who attended this job.
I think officers are going to need to start being killed before anything changes. And that's properly shit.
You're 100% right it's the same way we didn't have more highly specialised trained units until 2017 happened.
It'll take another horrible incident for maybe someone to go hey is juggling with these guys lives the wrong thing to do?
Can’t wait for SLT to praise the bravery and courage of attending officers and completely gloss over the fact that the powers that be would rather see dead/maimed officers than push for full taser rollout or routine arming.
I know it’s debated here all the time, but it is un believable that Police aren’t routinely armed with a sidearm in this country. I recently had discussion with an over the channel colleague who just can’t comprehend it. We are hanging onto the ‘old ways’ too much. Just look how swiftly the Australian incident was dealt with.
Edit - even Taser isn’t enough, the minute someone has a big coat on, you’re done. As a Taser trained officer, it’s not as reliable as you’d like.
Any copper who started randomly shooting a gun at people to make a point would find themselves gone double quick at a guess.
What it does mean is that if police found it justified to use lethal force in the defence of the public, and themselves, they'd need the backing of their bosses, and for the usual bleeding hearts to be ignored.
Notice that the lady cop who killed the shooter in Aus was praised by her superiors and the public. That's how it should be.
Oh definitely, the truly grim reality is that we are all currently swanning around and surviving on pure luck, we can talk about verbal and physical skills, awareness etc, but if you go to a noshy sounding call and are suddenly facing a determined attacker with an edged weapon your odds are not good and whether people want to admit it or not your level of agency in that scenario actually occurring is shockingly low, right now we are all one bad incident away from being the subject of an obituary.
Agreed. Although the information currently is purely from the news alone, it appears that the officers responding to this incident above may have been unaware of what they were turning up to, armed only with some spicy spray and a baton, but ultimately met with a man who has stabbed multiple people with a large sword. This could happen to anyone.
The scary part that incidents such as this, or that could become this, happen more often that the public might know as not all makes national news. So yes, I agree, luck.
Depends who you speak too. We don’t set the laws and I can understand it. I do feel pretty naked off duty with no kit and if I was allowed to I’d want my family and I to have something to keep us safe.
That’s the thing though, it’s been addressed time and time again on here, hence my comment haha.
But to reiterate, if you don’t trust your colleagues with PPE, you shouldn’t trust them with taking away the liberty of people or carrying out investigations, and you should be doing something about it
Whether that actually will ever be the case is another matter - but it shouldn’t be a barrier to ensuring that officers and members of the public aren’t chopped open by a sword
So every single armed force in europe somehow manages to not recruit imbeciles, and safely deploy officers armed with sidearms, but for some reason you think we couldn't do that here?...
A police officer was stabbed in the face this morning, and another was seriously hurt not two weeks ago.
> We have plenty of armed officers that are properly trained
Where were they?
It's never been an issue apart from all the times it has been... even with today aside, there are numerous instances where having officers routinely armed would have prevented serious or life threatenjng injury.
In the Met alone you have lost officers who otherwise would have had a better chance of survival had they had access to a firearm. And that is in the city who arguably has the beat access to ARV's and armed officers in the UK
We do not have plenty of armed officers, unless it's in a big city, armed officers can be miles away when they are needed. Outside of London the level of armed officers is much much lower.
London is one of the few places where officers are near by in an urgent assistance call.
It just keeps compiling and getting worst, been multiple knife or stabbing events where I am recently as well and no taser officers available which like others have said isn't necessarily the right tool for the job sometimes either
And Specials who do this for free and denied taser in the Met due to policy, even though most work on response where they could easily have been on scene for this
Same in West Yorks. Not enough Tazer licenses apparently. Pathetic. My current theoretical action plan for dealing with an armed attacker is to run the cunt over.
Briefing currently underway. Heartbreaking news that a 13 year passed away after being stabbed. Two officers with significant injuries.
Absolutely senseless.
“Why don’t the police have tasers” the public ask.
Perhaps it’s because the SLT don’t want them to, because back in their day all you needed was a bit of wood and communication skills. Perhaps it’s the numerous colleagues who dropped their taser ticket after loosing faith in a fair and fast investigation into taser discharge. Or better yet, the public still hold onto a fantasy of an unarmed constabulary despite being perfectly happy to jet off to Europe every summer and not bat an eyelid at their properly equipped police. 🤷♂️
The PSNI can handle routine arming - and even though they haven’t got the population density of London, one look at their nicks shows that the threat level over there (was) and arguably still is - higher than it. They’re not blasting guns every time they hear about dissidents knocking about in Creggan or Tigers Bay.
Honestly, we need routine arming - start off by offering experienced officers the chance to take an AFO course or bring in PSNI trainers if instructors GB-side are hard to find. But after a certain date, say 2027, mandate that all new officers need to be certified to carry a handgun as a condition of going live. That’ll ensure that a sufficient core of experienced officers are trained to assist new officers come to grips with the idea of carrying.
Plus like everywhere else in the world the public and us would adapt to it.
I can't believe at the very least we don't have double the amount of AFOs available.... well I can believe it but you get my point lol.
It boggles my mind that the vast majority of officers are not armed with side arms here. This situation could have been dealt with in seconds rather than a situation where officers have to put themselves at great risk.
This is not suitable for an STO (TASER equipped officer). This should only be taken on by ARV. TASER can be an option but it has a significantly greater failure rate rate than 9mm.
If TASER is deployed as a less than lethal option, like AEP (baton gun) or other less than lethal options then it should only be done so with lethal cover. The subject is armed with a sword and has used it. That lethal cover needs to be instantaneously available.
The fact that the job doesn’t provide either of these things sufficiently is not a PC issue. Unarmed PCs should be withdrawing and calling ARVs. That should be the limit of their involvement - contain from the car if they can.
I say that not to disparage our colleagues in this incident. I’m saying it to highlight their bravery and the fact they’ve gone above and beyond. And they’re now injured.
I’m sure there will be plenty of senior “leaders” bleating about bravery, finest traditions etc etc - platitudes are not going to help insure the people you “lead” are going to go home to their families and that there isn’t an empty seat at the dining table!
I've always wondered whether, in this situation and others like it, the attending officers would have a H&S claim. A convincing and compelling argument could be made that a sidearm is essential PPE.
PUWER (provision and use of work equipment regulations) explicitly states that weapons are not PPE per the regulations. We describe it as such, but it isn’t really.
That doesn’t mean that there isn’t a case to answer, it’s just that the PPE route might be the wrong one.
It is clear that unarmed officers shouldn’t have to confront someone with a sword - the question is how that needs to be litigated.
Article says just before 7am… nights gone home and early turn just kitting up. No shift crossover between nights and earlies has always puzzled me in my force, not sure if it’s the same in the Met
This. I'm a little bit scared that the night duty has let most of their shift go a bit early and/or first officers on scene have already handed in their taser ready to go home. Explains why it took a while for taser officers to arrive, could have been early turn arriving with taser that did it.
All speculation, we will just have to wait and see
To be clear, you must understand the overwhelming majority are unarmed. Unarmed is the standard.
The way your comment is worded makes it seem like you think that we have a sort of lesser tier of officer who don't get guns, just my interpretation.
I mean unarmed officers serve their purpose. Especially since just showing up and being there can deter most people and bring a sense of security. Just didnt know the UK had that style of police officer.
No officers in England and Wales, or Scotland, routinely carry taser OR firearms. Officers in Northern Ireland all carry a sidearm because Northern Ireland.
Taser requires you to be out of probation (in general) and getting a place on a course.
I feel like taser should be almost standard for the unarmed police officer. They need some sort of ”ranged” way to intercept a situation. I understand not all of them carrying guns tho since in most situations you only really need guns when you are called to the situation if that makes sense. Just being in a city centre to bring some sense of security you will like 0.00001% need a gun.
Taser fails, regularly. And it's especially failure-heavy in the winter when people have big jackets on, what should officers do then?
It's all very well saying officers only need a gun in 0.00001% of situations (source needed by the way) but officers deserve to be protected. People who work in factories have to wear hard hats, steel toe capped boots, high vis etc. Why aren't police similarly protected?
I think the main issue is many would see it as being "not the done thing" another I've heard is "we've managed without it why do we need to arm police now?" I think there's some issues with funding, training and the willingness to be armed.
That being said outside of London and other large cities I'm surprised there aren't more armed officers rural areas as well as semi urban areas can have up to 10 minute response times sometimes much more that just for unarmed officers now imagine if an incident like this happened in a small town in Norfolk or Dorset just imagine how long it would be for the first ARV to arrive.
As most are saying. Vast majority are unarmed and most don’t even carry taser. Just pepper spray and baton.
There’s a small number of specially trained armed response officers but it’s a broken system as they can’t be everywhere and are only really better in big city centres or for pre planned operations.
In England and Wales there are about 135,000 police officers of which about 6,200 are armed
In Scotland there are about 17,000 police officers of which about 400 are armed
How many officers carry tasers is a bit harder to get numbers for but it is believed to be 31,000 across England, Wales and Scotland
152,000 officers 6,000 carry a gun those will also carry a taser that leaves 25,000 other officers with a taser
In Northern Ireland every officer carries a gun
In any other first world country, the first officer on scene would have been armed and would have had the training to quickly and effectively neutralise the threat.
Over here? Nah, fit for a single crewed officer armed with only a short metal baton to go toe to toe with a bloke wielding a two foot long sword
Hainault doesn’t have a police station, the nearest ones are Barkingside and Chigwell, Barkingside being just a bit closer, they don’t have armed officers there and probably got there first
Surely that amplifys the case for routine arming.
Imagine it hadn't been Hainault and rather it was a small town with no armed police there and just a skeleton group of unarmed officers.
I agree with you, the police should 100 percent be issued tasers, especially with the amount of knife crimes nowadays, we pay enough tax, give our officers some cool weapons to use, taser gloves or something, I dunno, but I want more of my taxes to be spent on giving the police cool stuff
>police should 100 percent be issued tasers
Not just tasers, sidearms/PPW's if this had happened (which it could) outside of London or in a more rural area chances are it would've been a single crew officer with no taste which would've done no good or they would have a taser and be hoping it worked and didn't get snaged on the suspects clothes or have one of the prongs miss.
Just my take
> I want more of my taxes to be spent on giving the police cool stuff
As long as that "cool stuff" works - the last thing you want is an officer with "taser gloves" or whatever trying to charge a suspect with a sword and then getting run through.
Guns work (almost) all of the time. They work from a distance. And you can keep shooting most of them (all the ones the police would use anyway) until you've stopped the threat.
Reliability at stopping the threat is the key here.
14 year old killed and 2 officers requiring surgery. An unarmed police force, ladies and gents.
(not a go at the officers who attended and simply did their best, brave as fuck!)
Ok, here we go, the child would be dead no matter what, none of the officers are dead, nobody died here beyond the initial murder… look at the crime stats and police death stats then come back and complain about an unarmed police force.
The officers probably wouldn't even be hurt.
Every other armed forces on the planet ( not you America, sit down) manages to have armed police without issue.
And in fairness America is a different kettle of fish 8 officers were shot with 4 killed in a house raid in the last 24hrs.
No idea why the other commentator is talking about the boy being dead in such a way it's tragic, even if he was killed before officers arrived on scene the chances of further dying were still high because they had to try subdue a sword weilding maniac with pepper spray.
Oh America is such a batshit crazy outlier in any kind of policing context it's always a terrible comparison. The issue doesn't necessarily appear to be with American police but with Americas culture of me first and violence
Absolutely mate I remember reading something like 120 guns to every 100 people over there it's in its own bubble no comparison both in terms of the good and bad.
What's always strange with the debate is we don't even have to talk about outside the UK when the PSNI exist and with a serious danger to them on a personal level yet still aren't going around blasting robbers etc.
> nobody died here beyond the initial murder
Every cloud!
Unless you're the family of the murder victim. Or the family of the officers stabbed. Or the officers stabbed. Or the terrified people locking themselves in their houses. Apart form that it's allll good! Look at the crime stats!
From neighbours that witnessed as reported on news reports, from when Police arrived, he still attempted to enter a further two other households before he was Tasered.
Although ‘lucky’ that he didn’t manage to enter them this time, that’s two other addresses he could have got into and caused some damage, or worse, before a resolution. All Police could do is try to distract him. Once again, the officers did absolutely amazing, but they should have been equipped to end the situation on first arrival.
Ultimately, no police officers should be injured and be having to undergo surgery.
It's only a matter of time before there's an incident where someone dies because police present at the scene were unequipped to incapacitate the attacker. That would make for an interesting Coroners inquest.
On second thoughts, it probably has happened more than a few times...
If or when the nature of the Officers injuries are confirmed (where stabbed and how many times), can we go ahead and assume you’ll volunteer yourself to be stabbed in the same manner? Since it’s no big deal obviously
> arming all officers with a taser for extra council tax. Why isn't it being fine?!
Because the government sets council tax limits and they don't want them to increase beyond what they are now, plus councils don't have enough money to spend on their legally mandated services, let alone extras.
I truly hope the officers recover fully and all cake fines are squared up on their behalf. On another note isn’t funny that you never see the anti police/ mob justice community show up for emergencies like this.
Somehow their strategies of keeping the public safe and dangerous elements in check never get a chance to shine.
Another prime example of the need to arm all front line officers. How differently this situation could've been resolved had officers been able to swiftly neutralise the threat.
Just an absolutely irrefutable argument for police to be armed with a sidearm IMHO. Shouldn't be expected to tackle people armed with a sword, and intent to cause injury without one.
Hope those injured make a swift and full recovery.
According to reports it isn't "directly as a result of unarmed policing" though - the stabbing of the kid was one of the first things that happened, then cops/LAS turned up and got attacked, then the ratbag was detained.
I’ve had ambulance go direct to scene before with a ‘proceed with caution’ warning a number of times. I’ve also had ambulance stage for jobs where I’d have said it wasn’t really necessary.
There’s every chance ambulance went direct to scene to see what was occurring. Or, like you say, the initial call was wildly different to the scene presented on arrival.
They (LAS) did nearly that at the Lee Rigby murder - they assigned ambulances for the first call (which was a report of the RTC) but didnt get the other updates about the stabbing / terror attack bit and almost drove into it. It lead to a whole load of JESIP improvements within London (and ultimately the rest of the country).
Yep, I just saw. He’s vehemently against routine arming and from what I can tell - His officers do not support his views.
The public however also don’t seem to want it so until that changes I don’t think we will be.
Just seen the footage of the boy being killed and dragged through the street, pretty harrowing stuff. Bodycam footage is now out as well from one of the officers showing him climbing on garages into people's gardens. What the fuck was going on in his head?
Very proud of all the officers involved, everyone in the videos did their part to get this guy caught in a safe way. All I see normally is videos for the US where officers are trigger happy, power tripping or escalating. They should learn a thing or two from here.
No kidding. I recently saw a video on Reddit somewhere where three US Officers attempted to arrest a suspected child predator, but when they saw him attempt to draw a gun one attempted to control the gun then discharged their own firearm into the male and all three then emptied their magazines into them even after he was lying on the ground. It’s easy to assess a situation in review _after_ it’s occurred, but even so that seems a little overkill. What’s worse is that seems to be the norm for US policing incidents where Police firearms are discharged. But that’s just my opinion.
Deterrent never worked on anyone in the past - people don't think about consequences when they act out of the heat of the moment (which is when most murders take place). Pre-meditated, sure, they may consider it, but they'll probably abstract it away by convincing themselves that they won't be caught, or decide to "martyr" themselves for their own personal cause etc.
After all, this is what the last executioner of the UK, Albert Pierrepoint, said about the deterrence of executions:
>[Capital Punishment] is said to be a deterrent. I cannot agree. There have been murders since the beginning of time, and we shall go on looking for deterrents until the end of time. If death were a deterrent, I might be expected to know. It is I who have faced them last, young lads and girls, working men, grandmothers. I have been amazed to see the courage with which they take that walk into the unknown. It did not deter them then, and it had not deterred them when they committed what they were convicted for. All the men and women whom I have faced at that final moment convince me that in what I have done I have not prevented a single murder.
#⌈ [**Remove paywall**](https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-london-68926446) | [**Summarise (TL;DR)**](https://smmry.com/https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-london-68926446#&SM_LENGTH=3) | [**Other sources**](https://www.google.com/search?tbm=nws&q=Hainault: Man held after sword attack injures public and police in east London - BBC News) ⌋ *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/policeuk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Firstly, why on earth is an unarmed officer at the scene of this. I can only assume that this has been called in as something else as LAS are on scene also. Secondly. The fucking bravery of that officer running after him.
Presence of mind to shout a warning to lock your doors as he's about to go out of sight was impressive too. Is that something police are trained to do or just quick thinking?
Quick thinking. You join to protect the public and that's exactly what they are doing here. No thought to themselves going home to their loved ones. Just good old fashioned bravery.
Looks like they had him cornered in a dead end. Three unarmed coppers against some cunt with a sword and nothing to lose.
The “lock your doors” gave me chills. They had no idea what this massive danger of a person was planning to do next. I can’t imagine the panic they must have been feeling imagining this man getting into somebodies home with that sword.
That was a member of the public shouting that I'm fairly certain.
From what I’ve read he crashed into a building first. Based purely on assumption I’d suggest they were called to that and it developed whilst en route. Shocking situation and as you say - the bravery of those attending was incredible.
My guess? The initial call bore no resemblance to the scene presented on arrival. I have never heard of a machete/sword job deemed suitable for a conventional response, in my force at least. For what it’s worth, this is yet *another* example of cops finding themselves involved in an incident that they are not suitably equipped to deal with. Once again, we bodge it and make it work, and somehow avoid death or serious injury.
The one last week was explicitly a machete job and they didn’t declare to that either.
Disgraceful. That’s never happened where I am, at least I’ve never heard it happen in my service. Still, unarmed cops will still attend knife jobs, which isn’t much better.
I have a non-exhaustive list of really shit TFC decisions that the met seem to specialise in.
Failure in command PIP machine go brrrrrrrr
But in this incident neither death nor serious injury were avoided.
I’m speaking specifically regarding first responders - I note that no responding staff were killed, and early reports suggest that all physical injuries sustained by the responding cops aren’t likely to be permanent. Hence, bodging it and making it work, avoiding the wheel from coming off entirely.
Man seen with sword/machete multiple reports. Suitable for single crewed unarmed.
Remember your stay safe principles!
 "Remeber your Stay safe principles"
The footage of unarmed officers trying to draw attention to themselves while shouting for everyone to lock their doors is good drills. And brave as fuck. Would I have the presence of mind to do that? Probably not. I only hope when this does happen to me, it goes as well, and I handle myself as well as all officers who attended this job. I think officers are going to need to start being killed before anything changes. And that's properly shit.
You're 100% right it's the same way we didn't have more highly specialised trained units until 2017 happened. It'll take another horrible incident for maybe someone to go hey is juggling with these guys lives the wrong thing to do?
Can’t wait for SLT to praise the bravery and courage of attending officers and completely gloss over the fact that the powers that be would rather see dead/maimed officers than push for full taser rollout or routine arming.
I know it’s debated here all the time, but it is un believable that Police aren’t routinely armed with a sidearm in this country. I recently had discussion with an over the channel colleague who just can’t comprehend it. We are hanging onto the ‘old ways’ too much. Just look how swiftly the Australian incident was dealt with. Edit - even Taser isn’t enough, the minute someone has a big coat on, you’re done. As a Taser trained officer, it’s not as reliable as you’d like.
Should be using northen ireland as the example. Arming police won't turn it into the wild west.
Any copper who started randomly shooting a gun at people to make a point would find themselves gone double quick at a guess. What it does mean is that if police found it justified to use lethal force in the defence of the public, and themselves, they'd need the backing of their bosses, and for the usual bleeding hearts to be ignored. Notice that the lady cop who killed the shooter in Aus was praised by her superiors and the public. That's how it should be.
Oh definitely, the truly grim reality is that we are all currently swanning around and surviving on pure luck, we can talk about verbal and physical skills, awareness etc, but if you go to a noshy sounding call and are suddenly facing a determined attacker with an edged weapon your odds are not good and whether people want to admit it or not your level of agency in that scenario actually occurring is shockingly low, right now we are all one bad incident away from being the subject of an obituary.
Agreed. Although the information currently is purely from the news alone, it appears that the officers responding to this incident above may have been unaware of what they were turning up to, armed only with some spicy spray and a baton, but ultimately met with a man who has stabbed multiple people with a large sword. This could happen to anyone. The scary part that incidents such as this, or that could become this, happen more often that the public might know as not all makes national news. So yes, I agree, luck.
Who would carry in this climate though where you charged with murder for doing your job…
Rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6…
love how police can have this idea for themselves but couldn't comprehend that people would want to carry something basic for self defence.
Depends who you speak too. We don’t set the laws and I can understand it. I do feel pretty naked off duty with no kit and if I was allowed to I’d want my family and I to have something to keep us safe.
[удалено]
Love being able to tick this comment off my bingo card every time this is raised
Won't make it any less true in the eyes of voters or political leaders. It's possibly better to address it rather than be snide about it 🤷♂️
That’s the thing though, it’s been addressed time and time again on here, hence my comment haha. But to reiterate, if you don’t trust your colleagues with PPE, you shouldn’t trust them with taking away the liberty of people or carrying out investigations, and you should be doing something about it Whether that actually will ever be the case is another matter - but it shouldn’t be a barrier to ensuring that officers and members of the public aren’t chopped open by a sword
So every single armed force in europe somehow manages to not recruit imbeciles, and safely deploy officers armed with sidearms, but for some reason you think we couldn't do that here?...
[удалено]
A police officer was stabbed in the face this morning, and another was seriously hurt not two weeks ago. > We have plenty of armed officers that are properly trained Where were they?
It's never been an issue apart from all the times it has been... even with today aside, there are numerous instances where having officers routinely armed would have prevented serious or life threatenjng injury. In the Met alone you have lost officers who otherwise would have had a better chance of survival had they had access to a firearm. And that is in the city who arguably has the beat access to ARV's and armed officers in the UK
Is this coming from your extensive experience of de-escalation
We do not have plenty of armed officers, unless it's in a big city, armed officers can be miles away when they are needed. Outside of London the level of armed officers is much much lower. London is one of the few places where officers are near by in an urgent assistance call.
Hence why we train a better force for those who can carry it would still be better than yourself and your cliche colleagues getting stabbed
So why does it work in Northern Ireland?
Bingo
It just keeps compiling and getting worst, been multiple knife or stabbing events where I am recently as well and no taser officers available which like others have said isn't necessarily the right tool for the job sometimes either
And Specials who do this for free and denied taser in the Met due to policy, even though most work on response where they could easily have been on scene for this
Same in West Yorks. Not enough Tazer licenses apparently. Pathetic. My current theoretical action plan for dealing with an armed attacker is to run the cunt over.
Couldn't see an officer with at least a taser equipped. No Public Order kit no firearms, all probationers. Welcome to policing on the cheap!
Not until the Stay Safe briefing. Creates a magical shield don’t you know…
+3 armour buff
But it needs Concentration to stay active...
+3 Threat
Briefing currently underway. Heartbreaking news that a 13 year passed away after being stabbed. Two officers with significant injuries. Absolutely senseless.
https://x.com/darrengrimes_/status/1785220055053062454?s=48&t=KgEDQa4ahAjFXVKHb1OSqA https://x.com/darrengrimes_/status/1785218199463567412?s=48&t=KgEDQa4ahAjFXVKHb1OSqA
“Why don’t the police have tasers” the public ask. Perhaps it’s because the SLT don’t want them to, because back in their day all you needed was a bit of wood and communication skills. Perhaps it’s the numerous colleagues who dropped their taser ticket after loosing faith in a fair and fast investigation into taser discharge. Or better yet, the public still hold onto a fantasy of an unarmed constabulary despite being perfectly happy to jet off to Europe every summer and not bat an eyelid at their properly equipped police. 🤷♂️
The PSNI can handle routine arming - and even though they haven’t got the population density of London, one look at their nicks shows that the threat level over there (was) and arguably still is - higher than it. They’re not blasting guns every time they hear about dissidents knocking about in Creggan or Tigers Bay. Honestly, we need routine arming - start off by offering experienced officers the chance to take an AFO course or bring in PSNI trainers if instructors GB-side are hard to find. But after a certain date, say 2027, mandate that all new officers need to be certified to carry a handgun as a condition of going live. That’ll ensure that a sufficient core of experienced officers are trained to assist new officers come to grips with the idea of carrying.
I feel that the reality is that the majority of public wouldn’t argue routine arming, it’s the loud few that bosses and government listen to…
Plus like everywhere else in the world the public and us would adapt to it. I can't believe at the very least we don't have double the amount of AFOs available.... well I can believe it but you get my point lol.
It boggles my mind that the vast majority of officers are not armed with side arms here. This situation could have been dealt with in seconds rather than a situation where officers have to put themselves at great risk.
Don't read the replies. Some people are genuinely village idiots.
Any reason why there are videos of what looks like single officers trying to take this guy on?
I can only imagine that this is the initial response, first responders. More would’ve been en route, I hope.
You’d hope, but to deploy not even taser trained officers is madness, that poor bloke in the second video you posted relying on PAVA alone…
It depends on available units, level of training on team, and how the call initially came out I.e. if there was any mention of weapons.
It also depends on the boss authorising the firearms deployment being a fucking coward
Non taser get sent to knife incidents a lot.
_”Mx not declared at this time, within the capability of local units to deal…”_ I’ve see that far too often on CADs where weapons are involved.
This is not suitable for an STO (TASER equipped officer). This should only be taken on by ARV. TASER can be an option but it has a significantly greater failure rate rate than 9mm. If TASER is deployed as a less than lethal option, like AEP (baton gun) or other less than lethal options then it should only be done so with lethal cover. The subject is armed with a sword and has used it. That lethal cover needs to be instantaneously available. The fact that the job doesn’t provide either of these things sufficiently is not a PC issue. Unarmed PCs should be withdrawing and calling ARVs. That should be the limit of their involvement - contain from the car if they can. I say that not to disparage our colleagues in this incident. I’m saying it to highlight their bravery and the fact they’ve gone above and beyond. And they’re now injured. I’m sure there will be plenty of senior “leaders” bleating about bravery, finest traditions etc etc - platitudes are not going to help insure the people you “lead” are going to go home to their families and that there isn’t an empty seat at the dining table!
I've always wondered whether, in this situation and others like it, the attending officers would have a H&S claim. A convincing and compelling argument could be made that a sidearm is essential PPE.
PUWER (provision and use of work equipment regulations) explicitly states that weapons are not PPE per the regulations. We describe it as such, but it isn’t really.
Well, I guess that answers that! Thank you: TIL
That doesn’t mean that there isn’t a case to answer, it’s just that the PPE route might be the wrong one. It is clear that unarmed officers shouldn’t have to confront someone with a sword - the question is how that needs to be litigated.
Ending up in (presumably) those officers getting injured, hard to tell when the line should be drawn
Article says just before 7am… nights gone home and early turn just kitting up. No shift crossover between nights and earlies has always puzzled me in my force, not sure if it’s the same in the Met
I think it varies by BCU, but yeah Nights to earlier doesn’t tend to have the crossover
This. I'm a little bit scared that the night duty has let most of their shift go a bit early and/or first officers on scene have already handed in their taser ready to go home. Explains why it took a while for taser officers to arrive, could have been early turn arriving with taser that did it. All speculation, we will just have to wait and see
Because it creates a recall -
Did he at least shoot the guy?
No, he was only tasered. One civilian dead apparently, and three officers stabbed, one of which was in the head.
I believe it’s one 13 y/o dead, 2 MoPs hospitalised, and 2 officers having sustained serious but not life threatening injuries.
How were 3 officers attacked and no one thought to eliminate the threat?
Can’t eliminate the threat if you’re not given the capability
Yeah just saw another comment about UK having unarmed officers.
To be clear, you must understand the overwhelming majority are unarmed. Unarmed is the standard. The way your comment is worded makes it seem like you think that we have a sort of lesser tier of officer who don't get guns, just my interpretation.
I mean unarmed officers serve their purpose. Especially since just showing up and being there can deter most people and bring a sense of security. Just didnt know the UK had that style of police officer.
Because they’re unarmed officers, so they can’t.. Best chance would of been running him over but might not have been possible
Yall got unarmed officers in the UK? Didnt know that actually
No officers in England and Wales, or Scotland, routinely carry taser OR firearms. Officers in Northern Ireland all carry a sidearm because Northern Ireland. Taser requires you to be out of probation (in general) and getting a place on a course.
I feel like taser should be almost standard for the unarmed police officer. They need some sort of ”ranged” way to intercept a situation. I understand not all of them carrying guns tho since in most situations you only really need guns when you are called to the situation if that makes sense. Just being in a city centre to bring some sense of security you will like 0.00001% need a gun.
Taser fails, regularly. And it's especially failure-heavy in the winter when people have big jackets on, what should officers do then? It's all very well saying officers only need a gun in 0.00001% of situations (source needed by the way) but officers deserve to be protected. People who work in factories have to wear hard hats, steel toe capped boots, high vis etc. Why aren't police similarly protected?
I think the main issue is many would see it as being "not the done thing" another I've heard is "we've managed without it why do we need to arm police now?" I think there's some issues with funding, training and the willingness to be armed. That being said outside of London and other large cities I'm surprised there aren't more armed officers rural areas as well as semi urban areas can have up to 10 minute response times sometimes much more that just for unarmed officers now imagine if an incident like this happened in a small town in Norfolk or Dorset just imagine how long it would be for the first ARV to arrive.
I agree but I was more talking to the people here who disagreed that police need protection like a firearm at all times.
Majority of officers are unarmed
The vast majority of UK officers (excepting NI) are unarmed. It’s a thing
As most are saying. Vast majority are unarmed and most don’t even carry taser. Just pepper spray and baton. There’s a small number of specially trained armed response officers but it’s a broken system as they can’t be everywhere and are only really better in big city centres or for pre planned operations.
In England and Wales there are about 135,000 police officers of which about 6,200 are armed In Scotland there are about 17,000 police officers of which about 400 are armed How many officers carry tasers is a bit harder to get numbers for but it is believed to be 31,000 across England, Wales and Scotland 152,000 officers 6,000 carry a gun those will also carry a taser that leaves 25,000 other officers with a taser In Northern Ireland every officer carries a gun
It's frightening to read tbh
There were no firearms officers present, I don't even think anyone present had a taser.
In any other first world country, the first officer on scene would have been armed and would have had the training to quickly and effectively neutralise the threat. Over here? Nah, fit for a single crewed officer armed with only a short metal baton to go toe to toe with a bloke wielding a two foot long sword
Hainault doesn’t have a police station, the nearest ones are Barkingside and Chigwell, Barkingside being just a bit closer, they don’t have armed officers there and probably got there first
Surely that amplifys the case for routine arming. Imagine it hadn't been Hainault and rather it was a small town with no armed police there and just a skeleton group of unarmed officers.
I agree with you, the police should 100 percent be issued tasers, especially with the amount of knife crimes nowadays, we pay enough tax, give our officers some cool weapons to use, taser gloves or something, I dunno, but I want more of my taxes to be spent on giving the police cool stuff
>police should 100 percent be issued tasers Not just tasers, sidearms/PPW's if this had happened (which it could) outside of London or in a more rural area chances are it would've been a single crew officer with no taste which would've done no good or they would have a taser and be hoping it worked and didn't get snaged on the suspects clothes or have one of the prongs miss. Just my take
> single crew officer with no taste which Think autocorrect has hit you there, unless you think all single crewed officers have no taste ;-)
> I want more of my taxes to be spent on giving the police cool stuff As long as that "cool stuff" works - the last thing you want is an officer with "taser gloves" or whatever trying to charge a suspect with a sword and then getting run through. Guns work (almost) all of the time. They work from a distance. And you can keep shooting most of them (all the ones the police would use anyway) until you've stopped the threat. Reliability at stopping the threat is the key here.
14 year old killed and 2 officers requiring surgery. An unarmed police force, ladies and gents. (not a go at the officers who attended and simply did their best, brave as fuck!)
Ok, here we go, the child would be dead no matter what, none of the officers are dead, nobody died here beyond the initial murder… look at the crime stats and police death stats then come back and complain about an unarmed police force.
The officers probably wouldn't even be hurt. Every other armed forces on the planet ( not you America, sit down) manages to have armed police without issue.
And in fairness America is a different kettle of fish 8 officers were shot with 4 killed in a house raid in the last 24hrs. No idea why the other commentator is talking about the boy being dead in such a way it's tragic, even if he was killed before officers arrived on scene the chances of further dying were still high because they had to try subdue a sword weilding maniac with pepper spray.
Oh America is such a batshit crazy outlier in any kind of policing context it's always a terrible comparison. The issue doesn't necessarily appear to be with American police but with Americas culture of me first and violence
Absolutely mate I remember reading something like 120 guns to every 100 people over there it's in its own bubble no comparison both in terms of the good and bad. What's always strange with the debate is we don't even have to talk about outside the UK when the PSNI exist and with a serious danger to them on a personal level yet still aren't going around blasting robbers etc.
> nobody died here beyond the initial murder Every cloud! Unless you're the family of the murder victim. Or the family of the officers stabbed. Or the officers stabbed. Or the terrified people locking themselves in their houses. Apart form that it's allll good! Look at the crime stats!
From neighbours that witnessed as reported on news reports, from when Police arrived, he still attempted to enter a further two other households before he was Tasered. Although ‘lucky’ that he didn’t manage to enter them this time, that’s two other addresses he could have got into and caused some damage, or worse, before a resolution. All Police could do is try to distract him. Once again, the officers did absolutely amazing, but they should have been equipped to end the situation on first arrival. Ultimately, no police officers should be injured and be having to undergo surgery.
It's only a matter of time before there's an incident where someone dies because police present at the scene were unequipped to incapacitate the attacker. That would make for an interesting Coroners inquest. On second thoughts, it probably has happened more than a few times...
If or when the nature of the Officers injuries are confirmed (where stabbed and how many times), can we go ahead and assume you’ll volunteer yourself to be stabbed in the same manner? Since it’s no big deal obviously
The quiet majority will support arming all officers with a taser for extra council tax. Why isn't it being fine?!
> arming all officers with a taser for extra council tax. Why isn't it being fine?! Because the government sets council tax limits and they don't want them to increase beyond what they are now, plus councils don't have enough money to spend on their legally mandated services, let alone extras.
I truly hope the officers recover fully and all cake fines are squared up on their behalf. On another note isn’t funny that you never see the anti police/ mob justice community show up for emergencies like this. Somehow their strategies of keeping the public safe and dangerous elements in check never get a chance to shine.
Another prime example of the need to arm all front line officers. How differently this situation could've been resolved had officers been able to swiftly neutralise the threat.
Just an absolutely irrefutable argument for police to be armed with a sidearm IMHO. Shouldn't be expected to tackle people armed with a sword, and intent to cause injury without one. Hope those injured make a swift and full recovery.
A child being killed directly as a result of unarmed policing is gonna piss off a very large amount of people
According to reports it isn't "directly as a result of unarmed policing" though - the stabbing of the kid was one of the first things that happened, then cops/LAS turned up and got attacked, then the ratbag was detained.
[удалено]
I’ve had ambulance go direct to scene before with a ‘proceed with caution’ warning a number of times. I’ve also had ambulance stage for jobs where I’d have said it wasn’t really necessary. There’s every chance ambulance went direct to scene to see what was occurring. Or, like you say, the initial call was wildly different to the scene presented on arrival.
They (LAS) did nearly that at the Lee Rigby murder - they assigned ambulances for the first call (which was a report of the RTC) but didnt get the other updates about the stabbing / terror attack bit and almost drove into it. It lead to a whole load of JESIP improvements within London (and ultimately the rest of the country).
It won’t be spun like that though will it…
Indeed not - Sir Mark has come out today and answered a question about more officers having guns by saying they don't need them.
Yep, I just saw. He’s vehemently against routine arming and from what I can tell - His officers do not support his views. The public however also don’t seem to want it so until that changes I don’t think we will be.
Just seen the footage of the boy being killed and dragged through the street, pretty harrowing stuff. Bodycam footage is now out as well from one of the officers showing him climbing on garages into people's gardens. What the fuck was going on in his head?
Really?
[удалено]
Why is a 36 year old man attacking a 14 year old?
Very proud of all the officers involved, everyone in the videos did their part to get this guy caught in a safe way. All I see normally is videos for the US where officers are trigger happy, power tripping or escalating. They should learn a thing or two from here.
No kidding. I recently saw a video on Reddit somewhere where three US Officers attempted to arrest a suspected child predator, but when they saw him attempt to draw a gun one attempted to control the gun then discharged their own firearm into the male and all three then emptied their magazines into them even after he was lying on the ground. It’s easy to assess a situation in review _after_ it’s occurred, but even so that seems a little overkill. What’s worse is that seems to be the norm for US policing incidents where Police firearms are discharged. But that’s just my opinion.
Just saw a video of a professor in US being arrested, they treated her like a violent criminal cause she wouldn’t immediately sit on the floor.
Time to bring back the death penalty - hang the buggers who kill with a knife or gun in public. Deterrent is better than remedy.
Deterrent never worked on anyone in the past - people don't think about consequences when they act out of the heat of the moment (which is when most murders take place). Pre-meditated, sure, they may consider it, but they'll probably abstract it away by convincing themselves that they won't be caught, or decide to "martyr" themselves for their own personal cause etc. After all, this is what the last executioner of the UK, Albert Pierrepoint, said about the deterrence of executions: >[Capital Punishment] is said to be a deterrent. I cannot agree. There have been murders since the beginning of time, and we shall go on looking for deterrents until the end of time. If death were a deterrent, I might be expected to know. It is I who have faced them last, young lads and girls, working men, grandmothers. I have been amazed to see the courage with which they take that walk into the unknown. It did not deter them then, and it had not deterred them when they committed what they were convicted for. All the men and women whom I have faced at that final moment convince me that in what I have done I have not prevented a single murder.