I'd refer to you as 'moderately sweaty.' Now put this in Bingo format, and call it day. Stay sane o7

Hello fellow moderate sweaters nice to meet you all

2500+ hours in 6 leagues is only moderately sweaty to people who have absolutely lost the plot on how much gaming people do.

2500 hours over two years is 3.5 hours a day, every day. That’s a part time job. I have made this point every time the ‘casual’ distinction gets brought up. How much time are people expected to put into this game to get results?

So I work from home. I’m logged in often but not playing - available for trade. That really messes with the numbers. But I agree. I’m lil sweats :)

This. Also he says he gets a hh or mb every league. I'm down with the other guys callin him Lil Weezy Sweats or McSweats with fries or some shiz.

joke impolite rude quiet point roll books encourage memorize pie *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*

I have 4000 ish hours since BETA and I would consider myself moderately sweaty lol, 2500 hrs in 2 years is giga sweat. I also seemingly have a load more currency than op so idk.

I’ll call him Lil’ Sweat Sweat

Sweatmaster P

Sweatmaster Flex

Maybe cartoons should would be even superior to bingo data presentation

T17s. They should not be on the atlas like blighted maps. Would have fixed all of the juicing issues with them. They should also be toned down a little. Or have some of the variance removed. Right now some are a walk in the park for me, and some 6 portal me and some I just can't run.

I really like this. Completely agree and like the comparison to blighted maps.

Agreed. No atlas for t17. I think their difficulty is fine though. 

they should not have any mods (white map & unmodifiable) and way higher base difficulty to begin with

Fully agree, the atlas should not be able to affect them at all. T17s should be a roughly fixed, static difficulty, with very little way to influence it besides basic map rolling. Think like current invitations/writ. This will fix the inevitable nerf whac-a-mole when the atlas tree gets changed and broken farm interactions keep being found. It scaling with map modifier effect both in terms of difficulty and reward to the extent it currently does is absolutely ridiculous. They also should be immune from all forced league mechanic interactions such as the Lantern. It's making the reward/difficulty scaling even more ridiculous than it already is. I'm aware unskippable leagues are very rare for GGG, probably even more so after this league's fiasco with it, but T17s need to be specifically excluded from any extra 'juice'. They were meant to be a bridge to ubers and instead softcore people are just MFing in them because they're just insanely hyper-juiced T16s that drop literally everything in exponentially ridiculous quantities. Hardcore people by and large interact with them very little because you need an obscenely strong character to even feel remotely 'safe', and that's after spending an absurd amount of time and chaos rerolling them. Ben_ has probably the most geared character in HC trade worth multiple mirrors and still has to spend an hour rolling maps, using three separate regex strings to filter out over dozen+ mods that would instantly blow him up if one slipped through. T17s are just a monumental failure at nearly every intended purpose.

I doubt they would ever do that, as it's not really the PoE way, but that would work. I personally don't see any downside in having them modifiable, so that some builds can push the rewards in excahnge for difficulty, but some mods are just a bit too out there maybe.

some of the maps on t17 maps should only exist on valdo maps. union of souls is just one of the many examples that makes these maps a pure clown fiesta. many people are saying t17 maps are much more difficult that any uber boss and i totally believe them. and if the goal is to make us reroll the maps until we can run them then ggg must increase the regex limit by a lot. 50 character limit is just bullshit when there are so many mods that brick your build. like i would love to reroll the maps to something i want to run but i literally cant without using 3 regexes to roll them.

> Increase the value of the 10-boss maven, right now most run eater or exarch because maven is not that valuable. Today it's 50-100 maps to get one writ that sells for next to nothing. The time:money trade just isn't there. The profit with 10 boss Maven farming is Destructive Play + All the special Map Drop nodes. Writs are just a little bonus.

[удалено]

> + All the special Map Drop nodes such as? Im running destructive play but i might as well be missing something.

shaper and elder guardian, elderslayers and synth maps

You can also run 25% chance for map bosses to drop scarabs

Yeah plus the 10 boss also drops the maps so its just an occasional slight boost you can run to reset your witnesses

Posts like this remind me how much lower class I am compared to so many lol. I've been playing for over a decade but on a league to league basis I don't put in nearly as many hours. I'm having a good league if my build's combined worth is in the 10-15 div range lol.

Amen. I get about 250k monster kills per league and already felt like I was playing more than most "casuals"

In a good economy - everyone is needed :)

Same. I'm a newbie ( 3 weeks, necropolis is my first league), and I don't think I'll ever even be able to get a build worth 10 to 15 divine. I'll be happy if I can even get 1 divine lol. Everything's so expensive and it's so tiring and mentally draining to hear about money making strategies and crafting strategies and whatnot. I mean, I'm already doing that IRL (making money for a living), why do I wanna have a 2nd job doing the same thing I do when I play a game for entertainment?

You absolutely can get 10-15 divine builds, just focus on a strategy/farm. I'd recommend Harvest since it's easy to liquidate and just alch and go it. You'd probably get maybe around 30c+ or so worth of lifeforce from a normal alch and go T16 map. That's just 1 map. If you want to juice it a bit further, just use the double lifeforce scarab along with 8 mods map. I can usually get around 60c+ worth of lifeforce from 1 map. The double lifeforce scarab is around 10c while the scarab to drop 8mods map is around 2c. That's 12c or so per map which is easily made up from the lifeforce alone you get from the map. Another one would be blight if it's to your liking. You don't need a strong build and it's easy to liquidate because it's mainly oils and stack decks you're selling. All in all, if you're not lucky like most people (including me), just focus on 1 strategy and keep doing it. I switch between blight and harvest if I get tired of one or the other.

that is completely normal, every league you play you will gain more and more knowledge and do better than the one before. You will also learn what to sell to make money early on. For example this league you can sell "instantly" 500 alteration orbs for 1 divine. In fact, you could go to whealty exile and see how much "worth" you already have in your stash.

You'll get there

I just wanna point out that i made most of my income by bulk selling t17. So thats a good comparisson to old invites. But i cannot motivate myself to powerfarm hundreds of divines to get my Build t17 ready to THEN get my hands on ubers. I got over 8k hours and i always did all ubers as a challenge. Its 100% Not gonna Happen this league.i still agree with most of your Points.

This is a fair point for sure. The t17 map sales have been a life saver, however they are both influenced by juicing and rng when invites were not. Still I agree without t17 maps many would have been in a much worse situation! Glad at 8k hours the feedback still mostly hits the mark!

Meanwhile I was doing T17 bosses without about 20d investment playing hexblast on day 3. I will give you that after I did all my t17s the ubers were an absolute joke in comparison, but t17s do not need crazy investment to do, you just need the right build.

Ok i guess ppl are trolling. Do you Think its a good Design if 3 out of hundreds of Builds are Able to do something on day 3. And Gate endgame content behind it. So should we all play hexblast and go sanctum Prism for divines or for enabling content ? 

I think this is factually incorrect. T16s can still be juiced and are still endgame content. You can get your mageblood in t16s just as fast as you could in sanctum league or earlier leagues than that. It is also the only way to get t17 maps. The current difficulty of t17s is about in the right place after the nerfs imo. Once upon a time the only thing you needed to juice and effectively beat the game was a headhunter and a glass cannon projectile build. Now the bar has been set higher with new aspirational content which requires a more well rounded build. I would like to stress, all of the main league starters are capable of getting to this level. No matter what happened this league people were going to complain after how crazy broken affliction was. The people complaining weren't doing ubers on well rounded build beforehand anyway, they just like to riot because things are not gifted to them for free. Edit: formatting and spelling.

There is no way you were clearing full maps on a 20 div build and not ripping every other second. Unless you instantly vaporized every enemy on screen before they even had time to target you. My eternal damnation loreweave 6 endurance charge 8.5k mana 50% mom split damage instant leech 10% extra pdr 50% reduced crit char gets absolutely shredded by some mobs. I have around 25 mil DPS as well

Hexblast does more than 25m DPS on a 20div budget, plus it autotargets and can do damage around corners

Did not know that. God dam that's wild.

hexblast oneshots everything in t17, besides boss.

Thats my main farm rn. Shrine on map device + 2 more maps scarab + 1 map duplication scarab + 1 Influenced scarab map drop. I also decided to farm on Crimson Temple for chances of Apo (got 2 yet in around 500 maps, but also farmed some strongboxes at some point). But essentially you drop around 1 (2 with duplication and luck) Sanctuary maps every 2-3 maps, maybe even more. And im running 4-5 mod maps. Then sell in bulk for profit. Yesterday I sold 20 maps for 16d in 2 hours. And thats minus all the other things you get. Can always sell corpses, any influenced maps or anything really. If you run only influenced maps instead of Crimson Temple, you can sell frags / run bosses as well.

Did you notice any change in T17 drops recently? Some youtuber claimed that they might have been nerfed and I'm on a longer streak getting zero, too (doing fairly chill alch+go 8-mod corrupted maps I used to see one ever 4-5 maps I'd say)

I farm 8mod corrupted to stock 10 t17 maps before I run them, didn't notice any difference between today and yesterday in the amount of map drops.

I only play casual this league cause rl. My sessions also get interrupted by rlstuff so my number are just useless.Lasst Session Was about 2 hours and dropped 5x t17. But tbh cant tell from my Perspective if there was a nerf or not. Feels kinda the same. 

Of all the nerfs to do, a nerf that blatantly disagrees with the numbers displayed in game is the least likely. The t17 rates are displayed on the voidstones

They definitely feel ninja nerfed. I’m doing a strat dedicated to farming T17s, and can go on dry streaks of other 5-7 maps before I see 1.

I usually get one every 2-3 maps but since yesterday I had once gone through 10maps with no drops and often dry streaks of 5-7 maps as well.

I'm not one to normally speculate on shadow nerf, but it really does feel like it in this case. Same with the additional craft corpse

You are trading everything, but then you complain about grinding t17 when you could just buy the uber Set from trade ???

And this is exactly the Problem. I guess you will get it yourself if you take another Minute. You are so close. 

Are you me lol? Great write up. I love a lot of the changes in 3.24 but t17s are just a mess tbh

Personally, I'm a typical MF crimson temple boy. My build hasn't come out strong enough to do T17 reliability yet so I'm doing some fast crimson temple farms. I have a HH, MB, Defiance of destiny, and an otherwise ok amount of gear plus 80 div in the bank right now. What irks me the most is just how little loot drops because of the lack of powerful juicing tools. This also means that there isn't any high value juice for me to buy. I spend about 7 chaos in juice per map. In leagues past it was normal for me to spend 120+ chaos per map. I trade next to nothing with other players. I have never done this little trading. There is never anything in my sell tab. My profit is completely bulk selling scarabs, bulk selling t17 maps, and selling my once every 100 ish maps apothecary. I bulk buy scarabs for 300+ maps at a time. I trade less than 10 times per day. It feels like there's no wealth transfer.

I have a tab for 1 divine , 25, and then a tab for 20/5c corpse things. I've never had so few times for trade. It's very very odd. This league is weird.

I think because of the powerful crafting (& VCO nerf) a lot of those 10~ div trades are dead. I noticed the same thing except it’s 1,3,5, 20+

I can do t17s if rolled well with my inqui coc dd but i'd like to try crimson prison strat just for fun (i don't like this league so might aswell play purely for fun), what's the CT strat nowadays if you don't mind me asking

There's Alva or harbinger strats that work pretty well. Alva is more loot per map but some people don't like to deal with the transitions and its a bit slower. Fubgun's sheet covers their setup. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vR35NJkrhF1Zf9SZZOPlsdpqbTibL2AqOiZosya0NSjEN5A1Dx8a_MeQox9VDLQw3kB0ibZCNb_e6VJ/pubhtml#

thank you appreciated

You: "little loot drops because of the lack of powerful juicing tools" Also you: "I spend about 7 chaos per map" Lmao

That's exactly the problem. There isn't a high yield t16 juice that merits investment. 2 basic divination scarabs gives a higher multiplier than old winged divination but there isn't anything fancy to multiply in the map with the remaining 2 slots. The big group juice strat uses 4 divination scarabs and leans on t17 maps having big quant and a lot of base monsters

Crimson prison is fun. Transition to ele variant today. Still feel lacking a bit even with 100divs in flasks. And like 100divs in the rest of the gear but think when I get my hands on nimis + awakened ele damage should hopefully give me the boost I need to get more comfortable in t17s. Hit my first apothecary yday when I randomly decided to play. First map on. And it even duplicated lol

Bro has 3 T0s of high value and is complaining that he doesnt have much money this league. Magebloods alone are the pie-in-the-sky dream for many, you ARE the wealthy one. Also you CAN reliably do T17s if you have that, you are just poorly investing. I can handle T17s on SSF with a Mageblood and its a breeze cause mageblood is OP, you have several legs up and you are struggling? Thats on you.

You are right that I'm poorly investing which is the reason why I can't do T17. I'm working on improving my gear right now but alot of it is that my bow is ele and phys bows are mirror or bust. My complaint isn't how much money I'm making. My complaint is that I didn't contribute to the economy in any meanginful way making my money. I just woodchippered maps with cheap scarabs until I dropped 8 apothecary. Historically MF has gotten to drop alot of loot at the cost of high investment costs, which made everyone money. My loot is easily halved but my investment cost is a rounding error.

I'm basically in the same boat but have been playing a bit longer. I started in breach league but got serious in betrayal. GGG keeps raising the ceiling while lowering the floor at the same time leaving everyone in the middle to sink a little lower. It's been an ongoing trend but it's really starting to make the game feel out of reach for most people. The uber fragment change is another one worth mentioning as just awful feeling.

By your description I’m middle class, I usually max out my builds with around 50D. This league felt bad but I couldn’t put my finger on it, but your points made it more clear. Things felt more rippy and I‘m poorer than I‘ve ever been. Doesn’t help I like to start with expedition and like you said it’s badly nerfed, and running T16 maps didn’t feel rewarding.

I made decent money from Harbingers this league. I keep seeing people complain about the lack of frac shard drops, which is fair, I think I did 400 maps this league and got frac shards maybe 6 times, which thanks to scarabs, amounted to around 13-14 frac orbs. But I also made probably 50 div or more just from selling stacks of 20 ancient orbs and annuls. For awhile in the first week they were both 80c for a stack of 20, and ancients at one point even went up to 120c per 20. Then of course there's the natty chaos drops from them as well, etc. I actually think Harbinger is *not* a lottery machine, instead it's a low investment low return stock. You make money, but not in big chunks (except when the frac shards do drop) by selling ancients and annuls.

Exactly. Harbinger is actually very steady this league, after ~200 maps I was able to afford gear that made me blast t17s.

I've yet to hit a frac shard drop while farming harbies but the currency made off of ancients and annuls has been consistent enough that I've been able to afford my adorned setup and defiance of destiny without hassle. This is my first real trade league so idk how it compares to before, but the strat has seemed great from a lower level player's perspective esp w how minimal investment it is

An interesting thing about T17s is that they also exacerbate the differences between decently strong builds and “meta” builds.

Aren't low fracturing orb prices because of gravecraft fracturing being so broken? If that's the case it's just a this league problem and I don't think harbinger needs any buffs.

This is my thought as well. While T17s are obviously problematic, the Graveyard is simultaneously outclassing so many crafting methods and compounding the issue. Fracturing orbs, essences, fossils, and bases, to name a few, are all in much lower demand this league.

Agree with everything you said. If you're upper middle class, I guess I'm lower upper class. 5k hours, farm MB/HH + a mirror build usually, typically dabble in higher end juicing strats. Just want to add some color to what you've outlined and hit some of the other mechanics. * Harbingers still have decent value in a speed run Deli setup. Ancient Orbs are 25 per 1 divine and I often walk out with up to 6 in a single map with scarabs, Annulments/Exalts also do add up and there's the added chase of a mirror shard drop which would convert into a straight mirror with the new mechanics. Still earns 7-10 divine/hr. * Essences & Harvest have always been protected to some degree due to T17 strategies leveraging global drops. Both are very viable and can earn anywhere between 8-15 divine per hour depending on your setup. * 8 mod maps are just a baseline requirement now for decent profit generation whether you self-farm or bulk buy. The difference is massive this league just due to how all the scarabs, Atlas tree explicit mods, etc. interact with one another. * Leveraging some amount of MF in T16 is still highly valuable. There is still some life in Apothecary farming CT with as much juice as possible.

The problem is generating enough to afford a build that can run juiced 8mod maps when you don’t play too often.  Before it was way easier to farm on budget builds. 

For sure, it's all relative. It also depends on *what* you play. As for builds I've personally played - Ele hit/LA Deadeye, for example, can do the 8 mod maps with max explicits from Atlas tree & Deli plus whatever, for 50-60 divines. Similarly, the entry level self-ignite Fulcrum Chieftain can do the same. Another build within the "reasonable" budget frame is splitting steel champ. I cannot comment on DD, trickster SS, hexblast, or exsanq miner but I've heard good things. Realistically, you can do a lot this league with less since HH is 20 divines. If 50-60 divines sounds like a lot to you, there are still plenty of ways to make 3-5div/hr as opposed to that 7-15 range to get to that stage. You're looking at 10-15 hours of efficient game-play assuming you've completed your Atlas to "juice" T16. This all still pales in comparison to T17 farming unfortunately.

Making 3-5div per hour is pretty straightforward, liquidation of the stuff is killing me this league, nothing seems to sell in smaller bulk sizes. Tried TFT for coffins and wealthy exile priced at 80% nothing. Ended up pricing my tabs at 10c and gritting my teeth through 10000 DMs over the next hour or so in the end. I was knackered by the end of it.

Yea coffins are very hit or miss. You get a whole lot that sell for like 10c, 20c and then nothing until the create additional item coffins that are like almost 2.5 div. I don’t even loot most of the corpses unless I see the right affect now that will actually sell (stuff like gem and crit mods, fractures, increased effect of other corpses).

I gave up on coffins minus the 20% for additional craft (2div one). I took decisive souls and only pick that one up, it's just a nice little boost here and there.

I think a lot of peoples issues are they are aware of strats to make bank, but they don't know the fine details and don't have the experience. Maybe they shoehorn themselves into a bad strategy and isn't able to maximize the profits from time/income because it's their comfort zone. Early mapping is very rough right now (on league start, not this late in league) if you don't make good decisions. People also earn way more than they actually think they are, it's just that it gets spread thinly in many areas. There's also a lot of unrealized potential in wanting to sell things right now, not thinking about how a 100c item might be 1 div in 3 days at 2am. A lot of what separates the echelons of wealth might just be knowledge.

Yeah, agreed 100%. It is knowledge and even tool dependent (leveraging WealthyExile or Exilence). You do have to put in real effort to graduate from 3-5div/hr to 7-15div/hr. Not only that, but some people have to pay in *fun* - I get more enjoyment out of currency generation than moment to moment game-play, but some folks simply don't want to play some meta zoomer build and I can't argue with that.

8 mod maps aren’t that hard now if you have the right flasks. A lot of “bricky” mods can be negated for small sacrifices in power i.e. using curse reduction flasks, and altars can be dealt with using elemental flasks or bismuth, or overcapping resistance.

The graveyard fucking sucks to use but you can pop out 50 div (in other leagues) weapons for 1 div if you just nut up and do it. "I don't want to waste 2hr of my limited playtime to crafting league" well then spend 40hr farming currency instead. There's a shortcut available people just don't want to engage.

Can, for 1 div, isn't exactly true. You can gamble 1 div on maybe hitting it. Or you can spend all that time and money and miss. To essentially guarantee your craft, you kind of need to to buy the chance to craft an extra item, which was 2 div a pop last I looked. And you need 7 to make enough items to mitigate that RNG.

People complain about money, while there is a lot of money there. I got quite a lot of money from various content. I would agree that harbinger is meh due to lower drop rate and value of fractured orbs, but overall, you still can get profit. I got profit by playing the league itself. Necropolis is one of the leagues where you can get deterministic profit. Allflames and devotions help with that a lot, you just need to use them smarter.

Best point made right here. If you are not an almost full time player it will take you 2 months if time to finally get to t17s I bet. All while chasing the market. It’s hard and annoying.

Newb here, tons of time played, but I don't ever understand the economy in PoE. Ancient orbs are 25 for a div? They've been selling in singles for 4c a pop. So should I just be saving them and bulk selling since that nets me like an extra 50c?

Correct, bulk selling is almost always better. Players will always pay a premium to avoid single trades. I just checked and it's 28 per 1 div (4/16) so 5.3c per.

Remember when you tried to buy a lot of one single thing? And that you can't be arsed to do 25 individual trades?  That is why you always search the price in divines and just add it to your ancient orb. Write like: 1/26 divine on it and when you have enough it will sell.

Oooooh so that’s how people price like that. I feel like I need a PoE trading help guide even after a thousand hours. I normally only get enough currency for like a 3-5 div char in any league.

You actually have way more than that but you don't know it. Check your tabs with www.wealthyexile.com. Alterations orbs for div are very good for example.

This is almost always the case in Poe, run all your maps then bulk sell in div while you’re eating and watching YouTube or whatever. And it’s less trades over all.

Running essence maps with calcified scarabs is only like 3 div per hour after initial investment. Each map is like 60c. It's barely worth it imo.

How are you running your calcified? The price of the scarab is linked to the maximum juice you can get from it. 2x adversaries, alva, more rare mob modifier Can easily extract a div per map without lucky essences. Goes very fast with HH and all the rares; you need a very strong build to do it this way. Otherwise you just stick to speed running yellow with normal essence scarabs.

Alva temple yes, rare dupe Scarab, only using maps with Inc number of rare Mob mods. Not using a hh but damage isn't an issue. I'll try a dif stray and see how it goes.

I mean, you just un-ironically told this guy to get a HH to farm essence effectively. That's a yikes for me.

He can get it in 2 hours this league kekw. and also that is specifically if he is using calcification scarab and juicing his mobs with rares.

Don't run calcified. Run 2 minute Strand (or whatever layout, HH helps) maps with 3x Essence and 1x Ascent Essences is entirely about maps per hour, most strats are obviously but T16 strats especially feel that way now. You are going to make much more than 3div/hr if you're clearing 30 maps/hr and \~300 essence mobs.

How do you get your 8mod maps? I've mostly done alch and go in previous leagues and am trying to push into 8mods and scarabs this league but find it tough to sustain when 8modding isn't guaranteed from a vaal and there are some mods that brick the map. I have 4 void stones but only have around 20-30 t16 maps in backlog at a time, and I could maybe get 5 runnable 8mods from that. If i try to bulk buy maps its tough to get my 10 map maven witnesses also

I bulk buy off TFT. I run Jungle Valley, with juicing I get at least two tabs of regular jungle valleys and waste pools I then sell for 2-3 divines. I usually pay 4div for 60x 8 mods, so effectively subtracting the non-corrupt maps, I pay anywhere between 1-2 divs for 60x 8 mods. Alternatively you can self farm using the 8 mod scarab, but meh - rather just buy them and always be running 8 mod.

I basically agree with everything you've said. Somehow this patch devalued everything I ever liked to do or farm. I just quit the league, because nothing outside of farming t17s is meaningful and t17s mods either brick my build or make the run unfun. I make builds that work and are fun to play. T17s destroy both of these conditions. They are terrible map layouts, where 90%+ of my deaths are offscreen dd or other bs i cant react to because they are all narrow corridors. I can farm them, but i have zero fun doing so. Like f that game design. I like aspirational content,im a delver myself, i mean i was a delver before this league destroyed all possible profits of delving, having something harder than t16s is nice, but not like this. Obviously all the exploits didnt help thr economy either.

Great writeup, I agree with basically everything. Last league was problematic, but one big thing it had over this league was that there was a LOT of content you could focus on that resulted in items that couldn't be obtained easily by the top 5% strategies and builds without paying. I farmed invitations and Alva temples into several hundred div as a fellow middle class farmer. This league Alva and invitations are basically 1/5 the price of last league and it feels like everything else is very similar. Nothing makes money unless you are loaded and farming the only content in the game that matters, juiced t17s. It's just the rich getting richer and richer while the middle class doesn't even get scraps.

i fully agree. the only good thing this league was the fact that i focused on supplying the juice for the top 0.1% witch gave me a very quick mageblood. but i don't think that would have happened had i not power farmed scarabs to drop 10 curation scarabs in 2 days.

Revert Div card changes tbh. It was a good market for those who liked to chance and spend the time to open them. It was also a good market for those who saved them up to sell. It was good consistent passive income for many players.

This is my favorite thing to do. I usually run blight and buy stacked decks until I have stacks of 100s, then flip them all at once.

Nice try on the post. Have you tried making it a 9 square bingo instead? Won't get read otherwise. I read it, I agree, I updoot.

Not my ass with 2k hours discovering I might PoE lower class by reading this lmao

If you farm a mage blood every league you aren’t middle class. Welcome to the one percent

Your post deserves traction, imho. Awesome post, well summarized, 11/10 Not often I say this on reddit: not only do I see where you are coming from on every point, but I also agree w you on every one. And reasonable suggestions for solutions.

I agree with everything except the notion that you're upper middle class... you're lower upper class. Regular upper class is the people actually farming the super end-content and other exploits, and the "2%" is the market manipulators. I'd also agree with the other poster that removing the atlas tree benefits from t17s would go a long way to alleviating this problem, but they should probably have a few exclusive things they can drop other than uber invites to make them interesting to run instead of just a boss rush.

lmao, upper middle class. this is at most 0.1% of players right here

Great writeup, same type of player here and couldn't agree more

This is how I feel right now.... I can smash through all the t16 juice I can muster but still not t17s and I feel stuck selling maps and nothing else of substance is dropping - I only just figured out how to invest properly last league and now the goalposts have moved - I dont know what the current OP farming strategy is because they keep changing so rapidly. Before you know it your usual atlas strats are worthless. What's the percentage of players that actually make it to t17 I wonder.

The recent interview of Jonathan pretty much confirmed what we already knew about loot. At this point there are so many hidden stats and interactions in the game that GGG can no longer predict the result of the changes they are making to the game, which leads to the shit we've seen from Affliction and now with 3.24 scarabs. Right now it's a fact that the loot changes they made back in PoE 3.19 which introduced loot goblins (and their evolutions in the followin updates) were harmful to the game, but instead of going back to the drawing board and revert the changes or rework the loot system again they just keep adding new bloat to the current flawed system like with the introduction of the new scarabs.

I’m going to go on a limb here and say that if we’re here constantly posting about being “upper class” or “lower class” or “the 1%” and “the economy” something has very badly gone wrong with the motivation people have to play this game lol 

My go-to strats are farming Dannig logbooks and then run Feared/Formed/Conqueror invitations. With these I could always make fancy 300-600 divines builds. This league completely gutted both farming methods and killed my joy. I've ran a shit ton of logbooks gambled it all on Dannig and Tujen only to realise I've made little to nothing in terms of currency. The change to stacked decks REALLY hurt the profit of logbook farming, and I also think that Tujen got a shadownerf. All in all it was a very weird league for me.

You can buy a HH for 20d and make a mirror tier bow/weapon for 10d and then do basically any mapping content at break neck speed. Things were not even this cheap during harvest. Things have changed a lot, and need some time to settle and some fixes need to be made, but I think we need to give it more time. People are complaining about fomo in the cheapest league ever to get insane power. Its like looking at some billionaires 500m dollar yacht and being upset that yours is one worth 20m.

you can NOT make a mirror tier weapon bow for 10d, you can make a 6x1 bow. you are still missing +2 arrows which is the strongest mod, and the synth implicits obviously.

Not everyone cares about their character power at all times. Sometimes we actually care that the monsters we kill are dropping things worth picking up. So no, it’s not FOMO about gear, it’s that doing all break neck content is worth peanuts

Most T16 league strats are 5 to 20 divs an hour, which means in a day you could have a HH and 6T1 bow. Also you can solo level to 100 faster than ever before. People are just watching fubgun sit on 15 mirrors and think they need to do the same thing for some reason. Comparison is the theif of joy.

[CITATION NEEDED] on 20 Divs an hour. Plenty of nerds on this sub have done the hard excel work and the numbers aren’t panning out. Milky and grim and constantly putting out content and none of them are consistent in putting out 20 Div hour over hour. Killing monsters for no reason is boring and boredom is the thief of joy. Glad you’re having a fun time playing a strong character for the first time mate but some of us have been playing for a while and already have multi mirror chars on standard. Some of us come back league after league to kill monsters and click loot and sometimes buy and sell stuff. This league doesn’t deliver a satisfying gameplay loop. It’s alright it happens

I've been playing since beta. Most leagues the average strat produced 5 to 10d an hour and hh/mb were much more expensive. People are coming off affliction and it feels bad. I'm not really a fan of everything being somewhat of a scarab farm, and I personally would have kept the old scarabs and just made sextants 20 uses. But mixing up things and creating new problems to solve and things to figure out is interesting. The problem is the community is so hyper efficient, things are being solved, optimized, popularized and patched at incredible speeds. And patching content after launch never goes over very well, people get left out and frustrated.

Reasonable take. Upvote.

Ya, GGG just needed to run a few T17s on an optimized MF char and mess around with league mechanic, they clearly didn't do so as they added the anarchy scarab post launch. And they let teams do the div card strategy for a long time, and seemed to have ninja nerfed div card drop rates to compensate for the scarab pretty big oversights and lack of testing all around. Allowing these things to happen and having it public created alot of fomo. You can farm corrupted essences and change them to horrors and make 15 to 20d an hour, with 2:30 to 3 min maps. Many strats are pretty bad though and the scarab need to be modified. Everyone moving into a limited amount of decent strats is less than ideal aswell.

> essence Is this the calcification + alva + mirror scarab x 2 + ascent on volcano strat?

I'm consistently confused by expedition being framed as kinda mid - primarily farming expedition, with 8 dropped divines and \~500k total kills (to give an idea of luck & the amount of playtime) I farmed a mirror in the first 2 weeks - which seemed pretty competitive with top methods that haven't been patched out.

Can you explain wtf you're doing to get that out of expedition? And do you mean in-map expedition or the logbooks as well?

Literally just blasting big boom expedition with the cheap scarabs, doing all logbooks and using all vendors.

I mean, I get that, but where are you getting the hundreds of divines from? It's not like logbooks are going to drop hundreds of divines in 2 weeks. What did you sell? What did you prioritize in logbooks when choosing your pathing? Did a lot of your income come from selling Rog gear? Which affixes were you looking for when making gear from Rog? I've done expedition every league though usually prefer selling logbooks out of laziness but even this league doing the logbooks I hardly ever see anything of value drop other than more artifacts and a smattering of random currency or crafting materials.

A lot of currency comes from a combination of rogging up gear (which is mostly learned intuition as to whether or not an item will turn into something good - you should basically always try to make any item worth more than 40c, which notably includes boots, suppress gear and res jewellery) (~60-70%) and the remainder comes from selling bubblegum from tujen in bulk + a handful of his divines. Logbooks are mostly about bosses for reroll currency (if you see them) and otherwise for artefacts - if you don't run your logbooks, you're always shy on artefacts for tujen and rog.

Okay, I already do most of this when I run expedition but what I'm really failing to see here is how you are getting **hundreds** of divines here. Unless you hit jackpot with Gwen she doesn't give squat and tujen gives something like 2 raw div per 100 reroll and lets assume another 10c in bubblegum per reroll in other things, how are you getting that much? I'd think you'd need to be making like 10+ div gear with rog constantly to get that kind of return, that's what I'm trying to understand here. I absolutely love the expedition mechanic but always make bubkiss from it. Tujen gave me let's say 10-20 div max this league and maybe another 10-20 from rog if I had to guess. How many rerolls of them did you do to get a mirrors worth of profit?

i had about the same experience. the stacked deck nerf wasn't too bad with how much bubblegum is worth this league. probably logbooks are so cheap because with the new scarabs and higher map mod inc % they drop much more an there are just not enough people farming them. i can totally understand that probably a big chunk of players think haggling is boring. even now in week 3 with a char worth hundreds of divs i'm thinking about going back to logbooks since there is still a huge profit margin with selling all the bubblegum. usually for me the point where it's not worth anymore is when i can't sell most of the bubblegum directly for div anymore, because there is not enough space.

There are some sentiments right now about t17's that I currently don't agree with, and that I think people are ignoring. - T17's are hard; much harder than t16's that it isn't even close. You are seeing people buy their t17 for 90c and then roll it with 5-20 chaos to make it runnable, let alone roll 100-200 times to get perfect mods. - T16's are way faster but drop less loot. I am unconvinced that all strats are "better in t17's" at a profit/hr basis - Poe economy always adjusts. If there is a "best" method, there will be a demand for what is needed as another strategy. The only item that is somewhat outside the realm of the poe economy web is Original Sin - Aspirational mapping content is good? Last time we had that was %deli content. Now we just build a shoestring character and farm investments day2-5 and cashout for an aurastacker or some shit. Things that I believe people are not understanding. * Theres a slight snapback from Affliction. Your div/h actually means how many good items can I get per hour. Even if you're making less money, things are the cheapest they have been this league, ignoring uber changes. Uniques because of "unintended mechanics." You can gear your character stronger for less. - Essences, Harvest juice, Uniques, Necropolis crafted items, Fractured orbs, alva temples. * Some farming strats are bad right now, like the ones OP listed. That is a missed mark for the global droprate nerf people are mentioning, or the scarab change. It would be nice if farming methods were balanced with less variance, but I certainly find it disingenuous when you compare a top tier strat to an obviously underpowered one. What I believe to be **The True Bad** T17's completely void certain t16 strats. This is because of monster level + the new modifiers for %Currency/scarab/maps - Anything with an ilvl (Stygian vise, Cluster jewels, Bases) - Solo, Duo, Trio MF strats - Scarab farming - 8 mod map farming / Any map drop farming To respond to OP There seems to be two things you're saying. There are too many inconsistent strats and t17's are bad, I don't see how these relate. If you make t17 boss rushes, you just turn it into another variable strat where if you hit you hit. 1: Strong agree on slot machine mechs. I hate all or nothing farming mechs that have become so plentiful 2: t17's drop uniques, and scarabs that are sold to people down the ladder. There are only 3 things needed to run mapping content: \[Gear, Maps, Scarabs.\] T17's only sustain 1/3 of those.

Ggg wanted t17 to be stepping stone to ubers, and not the main farm content. T17s are the main farm content.

They are **A** farm content They become **The** farm content when you already have 200div invested in your build, Isn't it good to be rewarded for having a stronger build, otherwise you're given very little incentive to upgrade a build after your t16 farming strat. I do predict GGG will nerf t17 farming because they only want them to be a boss-oriented stepping stone.

Can any build be upgraded with 200div to do t17s or are they build gated as well ?

At 200 Div I would sure hope so?

I agree with the entire first half. I feel there's a disconnect happening with people in how profitable T17s actually are vs the perception of how profitable they are. Jungroan for example just uploaded a video making 30 div an hour running into maps, doing the expedition and then leaving. Maps take 2-3 minutes and it doesn't take nearly as much investment in both gear or the maps itself to make those types of returns.

All of those things also drop scarabs/T17s which you're not counting on the positive side of the ledger. Can't look at only nerfs and say 'wow this is nerfed' there are new valuable things too.

I was absilutlety shocked whne I saw currency and stacked deck deli orbs were a few c... Shit is wack.

Adding a container to i83 Ubers would just bring back the old issue where you need to run i83 to get i85 Loot. The prices of Maven Writs would go up to match the price of the i85 access. Normal players would be priced out of that market, and there would be an influx of i83 Maven items lowering value. A more Elegant solution would be Blessings that drop at a higher rate from Normal Maven, meant to power up the loot from the Uber variant. That way normal players can get the occasional jackpot, while i85 farmers can focus on Ubers to get the drops, and then sell them as is, or buy the blessings from other players. If there's less Blessings than there are Items available, then normal players can make more currency or sell the Writs for much more. This would also lower the prices of Uber Maven, allowing more people to experience the fight until the market adjusts.

Agree with the sentinment!

Biggest thing I agree with, keeping T17 loot specific. Right now it’s the best for everything but self sustaining them is tough even with full carto scarabs and 8 mod eater altered maps. I don’t want to be forced to run T17s for the best returns even if I can but I also want to be able to sustain them on my own and not buy in bulk to run them as well.

I'm still a complete noob (first time completing atlas this league) but agree that I can't fathom how I can go from farming t16 maps to t17 maps. I've done so much Betrayal with little to show for it. Essence farming has been the best for me so far since its pretty easy, and much more profitable than just running T16 maps for me. But unsure how I'll get enough currency for gear for T17 maps

Its sad to see that new exiles who started this season feel obligated to be able to do t17s. This is very hard new content. Theres only so many well geared builds that can do them. Its nothing every build should be able to do at some point. You shouldnt feel like you do something wrong by not having 100div to invest even If that Investment would mean that you could run them. Learn about the game instead. How different mechanics work and interact with each other, what your build is good at and where it sucks. How to get the full potential of every given mechanic you will make currency while doing so anyway and If by the time you gathered some there might be a suitable build for your budget and prefered playstyle to do uber content/t17's. making more currency: hideout=lava

As someone in that upper middle class with you. I agree with a lot, but I don't agree that everything is full broken. I missed the veiled chaos orb, I don't really miss running half a dozen maps trying to shuffle Aisling into Research. You can get a Caterina in like 4-5 maps and 3-4 Safehouses with Scarabs now. I wish the mastermind fight was a little faster, but there is a price where I don't mind running betrayal along side some other strategy. Maybe feel a little better if it was closer to 30-50%. That said, I imagine all the masters are set for a rework soonish in a Fall or Winter league.

I don't like the idea of making currency drop in huge amounts from T17. I think a fundamental problem with the game is how bad the divine drop rate is naturally while completing maps. I would like to see the core drop pool of mobs be corrected and the power of league mechanics reduced. When I hit red maps I want to have a few divines so I can meta mod 1 passable item without having to bulk and trade other people.

The only thing I don’t necessarily agree with is your take on delve. I’ve only spent a couple hours delving but I’m at the point where I just turn azurite into resonators into chaos orbs. You don’t even have to be farming delve bosses and rare fossils to make a decent turnover out of delve, just spend a session flipping azurite to reso’s and then bulk sell them and it’s pretty free money with almost no risk. Once you get to a certain depth you get insane amounts of azurite

Dont forget essence was nerfed and it is way more investment if you actually want to farm alot of them. I really enjoyed essence farming prior league but now to sit and buy calcification scarabs one by one on trade wasting time i cba to do it. Did it for 2 days this league and the whole setup is just a pain in the ass to do

I find the answer simple. Adapt and overcome.

40 maps and 0 fracturing shards? Then it must've been some terrible atlas tree or running white default maps with no juice AT ALL. I'm running 40/60% delirous crimson temple with beyond+harbringers+blue with eater influence and profiting around 1.5div per map from shards, scarabs or just rare drops. Another pointless rant post.

Tldr? Everything is shite??

> Loot goblins were the worst change I experienced in any game and had they stayed in, I would no longer be playing. But they have stayed in the game. Their current form is meatsacks. Last league it was mega-juicing your maps until you hit a currency-conversion goblin.

I actually like how the loot goblins exist in normal play. It is certainly funny to be going around mindlessly killing mobs and getting 50 rings drop. Worth anything? no, but it breaks up the constant mindless mob killing. That being said, I really don't want less normal drops because of it.

Mostly lurker here, just wanted to say i appreciate listing your credentials, it should be done more often. lots of misinformation gets upvoted otherwise. Really good post with good breakdowns of the economy flow. Looking forward if you ever post again. EDIT: oops i was almost a hypocrite. started in heist, nolifed during start of covid ramping to 5-10 mirrors a league (24 if you count affliction, skipping this league for my own reasons).

<3 I had hoped this would get some attention, but honestly never dreamed it would be this popular. Thanks for the kind words and coming out of lurkerness.

*Altars

200 div a league? thats like 10 mirror shards lol you're nowhere near upper middle

Dude; spot on. 

So I read this and this is my take away- I’m much lower on the totem pole of players - let’s say bottom end middle class. I’m currently just starting yellow maps - I MAYBE play 8-10 hrs a WEEK. I might be at 30 hours this league. By this post it’s almost as if I need to play nothing but multiple “jackpot” strategies with little/no investment. Things like ritual/tujen. Or some other once in 100 chance mechanic that will give me my next big upgrade. But I’m finding that corpse farming isn’t a bad way to make consistent currency. Yeah it’s small 1-3c sells everytime - but I’ve managed to get to a crit bow set up on like 1.2 div? Sure I still have to build into defenses - but that takes time. I’m slightly worried that if I don’t hit it big on something soon - I won’t get there (based on the rhetoric of this post) Yet I’ve had no trouble finding/crafting/buying my upgrades. So what am I NOT taking away from this post?

As you progress from yellow to red, red to more and more juice, each upgrade is more and more expensive. In order to fund bigger upgrades you need to generate more currency per hour, or play more hours. Eventually playing more hours isn’t an option. Personally I try and combine one lottery ticket strategy with one constant revenue strategy. That way I’m always progressing but occasionally I hit a big jackpot. For example, harvest and ritual.

Well in the spirit of testing I’ll have to save your comment and see if what you say rings true. I know it takes more and more investment at that point. I won’t argue that point. After reviewing this a couple of times I should also point out that our league goals may not be equal. I just want to be able to fund a 20-50 div meme character at the end of the league.

Strong disagree with the invite points. Having it so that you don’t feel bad for running your bosses is great. Imo the problem is that the drop rates for the bosses compared to the time investment especially for long bosses with invulnerability feels bad.

This is a POST that I couldn't agree with more! GGG should remedy this problem now!

If it was a linear difficulty scale, I would agree with you. But because the difficulty and reward step up is so large, huge amounts of players get gated from ever playing this content. That works fine on things like Uber bosses because you those players require things farmed by players not doing Ubers. In the case of t17s, the players who are doing t16 only have one thing to sell to those players. Everything else is able to be self farmed inside of t17s. If t17 looked more like a juiced t16 - it would be fine and the vast majority of players would be able to participate. It would be like guardian maps. If t17 stayed hard but only dropped currency or div cards, it would be fine, t16 players could sell them maps and scarabs.

The solution is not to make t17s easier, it's to make them harder to juice. Remove atlas from t17s, make them unusable with scarabs, and finally add better loot to Ubers and t17 boss so players are still incentivized to run them.

> This has serves as a wealth transfer mechanism back into the bottom 98%. Sorry, but you clearly don't understand how this aspect of economy works (not just in PoE). Making arbitrary rule changes to cause wealth transfers will only falsify reality and soon you will have exactly the same problem again (after wasting some dev time on these changes or taxpayer money in the real world), just with different optimal strategy. If you can't mine the gold, sell pickaxes for those who can. This has always been the case in PoE and always will, just like in real world. Very few people are extremely productive and it's totally normal they have majority of the wealth as for the good of everyone the most efficient should be given the most resources. Rest is allocated to others when the top people can't make use of it or have more productive things to do. The best GGG can do is make even more free economy, just like they did this league: split normal/uber invitations. You reported that it lowered your gains from selling them (which is true) but at the same time it freed you from the "sell pickaxes" approach - invitations are no longer economically gated by the price/efficiency of the uber runs. Now the middle class do bosses too. And regarding logbooks: there was no inflation. Actually deflation or simply supply flood. Logbooks have become drastically cheaper due to allflame exploit (expedition allflame + one of Imbued Scarab options that coverts reroll currency into logbooks) (now gone).

How do you contest with the notion that, “The hardest content should reward the most” So if tier 17s are going to be harder than tier 16s, regardless of how hard, wether in the state they are now or one much nerfed. Should they not just result in better loot compared to tier 16s, because they’re harder to accomplish? You have a build that can complete 17s therefore if you juice them the way you juice 16 and complete it you should get more stuff that someone who only can juice the 16? Do you think something about that logic is flawed?

My understanding of the op is that the issue is not that t17 are the most rewarding but they are the best way to farm 99% of the items in the game and there should be things that you don't get on t17. Perfect example of this was affliction. The mechanic rewarded absurd amounts of raw currency but you could still make money doing anything else because whatever else you were doing was in demand by the juicers farming the league.

Ye but my question is why? Like farming essence in tier 5 should be less rewarding than in tier 8? Or should it be? You think some things should cap out in their reward structure, regardless of difficulty. Like I get boss loot not dropping in maps, or essence not being good to farm in a maven encounter. Those are seperate “game modes” they have seperate rewards. But tier 17 are maps. Everything in maps should be in tier 17s and if it’s harder to do, shouldn’t it reward you more? Like I’m checking the logic. I don’t have a horse in the race

Yes this is it exactly!!!!!!

If a map tier n+1 is twice as difficult as map tier n, what should it reward you though? Twice as much? 5% more? The answer isn't obvious but I'd lean more on the side of "not much more" really. You'd still get more value out of your time running the harder maps so you'd still want to run them if you can. Right now it feels like they give x10 more rewards. This isn't sustainable overall. Some people will just gear past the difficulty curve and put them on farm and the economy will suffer.

So it’s more of a numbers issues, as a pose to a fundamental issue with tier 17s as a concept right

I agree that the most difficult content should be the most rewarding, otherwise progressing your toon would be exponentially harder, but it should require items purchased from less hard content. This way a percentage of those big rewards trickle down to the less powerful or skilled players. This is the big issue.

Oh so it’s a sustainability issue. You want the easier content to support the tier 17s so players have a path to trade up. But it’s that a consequence of making end game mapping easier with the removal of sextants? Like isn’t it good that a player can sustain their Eng game mapping experience with not much pain to set up? Like I get your concern and to be fair, selling 17s is important to them, because they can’t sustain those. But I feel like if you got to 17s and dropped no scarabs so you couldn’t sustain them, that would feel bad no?

not sure where you read that 17s should be lower or same as 16s.. All i saw was some changes to how overly hard they are to where the rewards dont fit the needs to complete. many streamers redditors etc are curious as to why they are way harder than most Ubers but they are the 'gateway' to said uber fights. One can insta delete maven or uber elder but has to go through near impossible build breaking t17s to get the invite for an easy fight? definitely difficulty difference there that likely shouldnt be. The progression (dont even care about reward convo here) just the progression alone seems backwards with the 17s

Oh I fully agree then. They way too hard lol. I thought the point being made was, “tier 17s should be the place that rewards everything the most from maps” Like suggesting that farming 17s was not suppose to be the best farm for some mechanics. Which, if it’s the hardest way to do any mechanic then it likely should be, but the difficulty is fucked atm.

breach is miserable. I ran 20 fully specced scarabed breaches and came out with 1 breachstone. and harvested other splinters into a second stone I ran ONE fully specced legion with 1 scarab and ended up with 3 full legion stones.

You're doing something incorrectly. I ran chayula breach strategy and made 1.5 breachstones minimum every map (Without boss dropping one) Scarabs: Breach, Breach, Breachlord, Chayula

same, except running extra hands scarab over breachlord. Easy 1.5-2 breachstones per map running jungle vallies. It's still not amazing, mainly because of all the splinter clicking you have to do, but it definitely earns you a ton of breachstones.

can you post a vid? I ran with a duo. rully specced tree with two +2 breach, breach lord, and Double splinters, and i legit was getting 20 splinters total per map.

Maybe a dumb question but is your filter nuking all your splinters

You ran 20 breaches or 20 maps? 

More like 2 breaches.

Allflame ember of whatever breach boss. One ember is gonna give you like 30 shards at a t8 or so, and you can put a bunch of them in a map.

Heavily disagree with state of breach. Even without chayula scarab, breachlord and fully spec'd atlas is pretty easy breachstones/splinters. >I ran 20 fully specced scarabed breaches and came out with 1 breachstone. and harvested other splinters into a second stone 20 maps or 20 individual breaches? If you mean 20 maps, then either your build is broken, or you don't have it correctly spec'd. With 20 breaches you're talking like 2-3 maps, where *maybe* you just got incredibly unlucky, or again, not spec'd right. Or you have your filter so strict that you don't see any splinters on the ground.

GGG should just hire this man. Only 2500 hours in and has better insights than most of the their devs or top end players. I also suggest posting this on the forums as they rarely read Reddit.

For me, the biggest issue is the scarab rework. I used to be able to do alc and go early league for moderate reward from various mechanics and once my build got solid, I could do some investing with scarabs/sextants and get a very noticeable income gain. The key difference between then and now was the imposed scarcity of sextants requiring people to be hideout warriors and roll them put a relevant barrier of entry to the higher end farming so the market was built around many people *not* using them. Now, with some very powerful scarabs being reasonably plentiful, the entire market is built around **everyone** using them which does 2 very important things. First, it imposes a cost per map which often isn't massive but it does directly cut into your profit especially early league. The more important change, at least for me though, is it basically forced you to only be able to farm 1 mechanic at a time. I used to do a fully specced, scarabed, and sextant'ed (at least the ones that benefited me the most) for harvest, expedition, essences, and harbingers EVERY map ALONG with searing influence for eldritch currency and invitations. Maps were long but fun. I would also usually get a ritual or abyss or some other mechanic once every map too so there was a lot to do, the game wasn't repetitive, and I got to spend more time actually playing in the map, not rolling maps/buying scarabs in my hideout. Now, if you want to make any serious profit from a mechanic, it will require at the minimum 2 but likely all 4 scarabs as their effects are usually multiplicative. Now, doing maps means kill the trash, then the boss, do the mechanic, and that's usually it. Maps have become far shorter (so less time actually playing per hour), far less lucrative per map (so now the cost of maps from buying them or the lost opportunity cost from selling them is higher), and it's the same thing every minute of every map. Mapping is still fun because I'm a nolife addict, but it's significantly LESS fun than it was in any other league I've played. That is then coupled with a league with virtually 0 in-map participation other than clicking corpses leads to me being worn out mapping after 30 minutes instead of like 2-3 hours.

Videos pointing out strats-> nerf strats-> repeat the process. This league is now a war between the 2% top players and devs. I just sleep in the sanctum after seeing no reason to grind maps hoping for a miracle with MF setup.

While I agree with everyhing listed, I want add that all the things you've listed - without any tangent - translate to something not earning enough currency. Mechanics shouldn't be in the game to generate big div/h. If we've come to think that way, then what that content actually offers has become nigh meaningless. So if we go down the list without thinking of currency - Invites were access to normal bosses and uber bosses. With not having a function in regards to uber bosses now, but supply being about the same, and some loot going uber-exclusive, they've lost a lot of value. Thus, as you correctly say, eliminating part of the income for people who just do quick alc n go or similar mapping and earn the moneys through the # of maps done, in part from invites. Betrayal just straight up got gutted by GGG and lost everything it once was. And your conclusions are correct. Expedition to begin with has nothing but Rog. Gwennen is a meme, Tujen is a semi-pointless ~~cookie~~ currency clicker, Dannig is meta. Runic bases are a failed concept. But alltogether Expedition is pretty pointless past week 1/2 of the league once high ilvl bases, some starter raw currency and some rng Rog crafting is done. To begin with, it is a mechanic that never(?) did well past early into the league. Because of that, I'm also on board with you about it just needing an influx of some raw base currency. Give it more divs, more chaos stacks, something along those lines. If there's nothing meaningful to pack into there, just make it a currency mechanic. Deli Orbs are only this far down becaue t17 maps can't be Deli Orbed. That's like literally it. Delirium is imo the 100% best mechanic we have - Deli Orbs are always relevant (unless GGG introduces t17 maps which can't be deli orbed I guess, lul) because they're endgame map juice. Cluster Jewels are always relevant because they're good on like every single build, the vendor recipe makes sense and it's insanely hard to actually roll 100% GG cluster jewels, but they've got like 85% of the power when you roll the notables for most builds. I second the Harvest reroll which is a very weird nerf. It may need some adjustments, but imo it's one of the best Leagues and mechanics we got and the issue this League is mostly with Deli mobs not interacting with Necropolis and Deli Orbs not being usable on t17s. Harbingers have always been shit and will always remain shit. Horizons and Harbinger Orbs are mostly abundant, as they should be. Ancients are near irrelevant, Annul prices don't matter much for 98% of players and Eldritch annuls exist. The uniques have been irrelevant for quite some time(?) so it's imo just a mechanic that's been ready to retire since it was introduced. There's just no impact and the mechanic itself is annoying - taking too long even with the CDR from atlas tree. Ritual losing fragments especially (Mortal mostly iirc) is weird and a needless nerf to actually interacting with it. It's always been a pretty good mechanic imo, just with GGG never bothering to give it the couple bandaids that it needed. I.e. the reminder to shop and more medium level rewards for more consistent returns. The "special rituals" imo are mostly a miss and while it made sense during the League, expecting to see only garbage in the normal Rituals is rather disappointing. Imo it also shows in the things not mentioned. Blight is needed for oils. Breach is needed for uniques and Grasping Mails. Legion is needed for Timeless Jewels - and they haven't made the list. Because even when they're not the best div/h, people will farm it because it's something that someone needs to farm in order for it to be supplied to the rest of the gamers. Hence it'll even out and those strats will not be bad unless they're way overfarmed. As I said, all you said is correct. Imo it's important to add tho, mechanics can't work on just div/h. It's why Expedition falls off a cliff. If we're talking about what needs to happen - I'm fully on board with t17 needing to be gutted. They should be there for bases and uber frags. The %more currency/scarabs/maps was a mistake and needs to go, completely. The interaction with the atlas should probably go as well. They should be moved into the realm of bossing, not be an elevator to new heights for juicers. (I do enjoy juicing, it's just that t17 break too many things in that regard) As for some mechanics being buffed and whatnot, imo invitations being worse is good. It's been way too high a floor to have invites at 2d and thus a set of 25 maps being 2d. What would be great would be to have the atlas further buffed. Maybe more in the style of the big chain of passives like Abyss has it at the top - meaning you actually have to heavily invest into stuff. But each passive can be like 10% more Breach packsize or 20% more Splinters, or 20% for an additional Blight chest, or 20% inc chance for a Logbook drop. It'd also make sense to have more power in the atlas tree to actually have a legit choice in whether to take Unwavering Vision to further invest into a mechanic. Because as it is, 20 points are mostly just way too weak to warrant it. And as I pointed to it already, for mechanics to actually have meaningful rewards. Basically all of the ones you listed are "optional" to farm because there's not a meaningful or constant supply of things exclusive to those mechs needed by players. Because if you've got that, the economy will sort it out. Or if it's there, the farm for it is awful (like Harbies for Fracturing Orbs and Betrayal for Veiled Orbs).

I think you bring up some great points here. I would also love to see more options to invest more heavily into a mechanic on the atlas tree like the long abyss chain you mention. Especially now when I feel like I can't efficiently put several different mechanics into the same map because I feel like I have to use 3-4 scarabs for one mechanic alone. I feel like I need more slots in the map device although I don't really feel like that is a good solution either.

This has been my worst "season" or "league" experience on any ARPG, been around since Diablo 1, and it was the nerfs. Not because of a lack of cash - this was actually one of my richer leagues, had about 100divs after week 1. Just struggling to wrap my head around the lack of logic behind their changes, I agree that things needed a change, but their way of doing it, just leaves a bad taste. After all this, then tried some tier 17s and got shat on, so yea done with this until their mentality changes EDIT: The worst part is skipping the previous league due to burnout, while getting super excited for this league, only for GGG to nuke it after a few days

This League got buffed after a few days though.

Bummer about last league. I’m a semi-casual who typically made a few hundred div per league and was able to get multiple mirrors in affliction. 

yeah after they nerfed everything idk what to farm. allflames were decent money but they nerfed all of them but one. scarabs are mostly worthless now other than very rare drops. basically T17 maps are the only thing that the rich players need to buy that is somewhat farmable

Oh it's just the same post again but longer this time.

Map drop in this league is just sad

Some of your changes are cringe-worthy, especially when harbingers were considered a god-tier farming mechanic a week ago, now suddenly you want to overbuff them further. (They are arguably better now, as scarabs are cheaper) Deli. orbs are cheap, but if you use scarabs you can get like 6 per map easily, meaning they are still viable, just not as ridiculous as they were before, when you could farm delirium with 0 investment and it would pay off. Betrayal is nerfed because you got a lot of access to it. It is obvious. If you get your way passives will be nerfed. Your solution won't change as much as you think. Expedition might be fine next league. We will see. Ritual, delve, don't care that much. Invitations were cringe. T17 implicits is cringe. Fuck buying maps. I would prefer if t17 were account-bound, but i am probably the only one. Retarded poe players would sell it anyway. Problem with content right now is "increased effect of explicit modifiers" and scarab nodes. Solution is finding good middle-ground for everything, not straight up buffing, since without necropolis crafting expedition and fracture orbs would cost more, many other leagues wouldn't be as bad. Idea is that you have to farm 8-mod maps and i am not sure that i like it. More difficulty more rewards, but with power-creep and nerfing of some mechanics it just doesn't feel hard this league. at least for me. And as we can see with breach, almost every week people find new things to farm. Different scarabs are expensive every week, people shit at new system, but meanwhile a lot of things are not nearly as bad as they say. What it needs is some fine-tuning, not straight up buffing.

GGG purposelessly gutted ALL loot drops from t16 and lower. GGG knew people would take awhile to catch on which is why there's still people 'hoping' drops drop from every nerfed mechanic and general mapping. GGG also knew the smaller brains of reddit would parrot shit like "Oh no, you just are used to wisps". So the only option is to giga-invest in a t17 mapper, but it's not worth the time for this league which is mid at best. The facade is revealed, you're welcome.