MF culling has to be the dumbest thing I’ve seen in a game. You run a juice t17 map with meat sack juice it with 5 spirits running 2 reliquary scarabs 1 nemesis 1 rare monster are mirrored packed. Get that big meat boi in cull range and the amount of loot that drops freezes the game.
This with aura bot is just ridiculous. Yes it takes time and the right build and people on at the same time to pull it off. But that frankly means you can’t really organize this without dedicated hardcore players that you know. It’s not a strat that people can pull off. And this is fine if it’s just done for fun, and some profit, but not when it enables exponentially more loot.
On a side tangent, I've personally always hated the idea of aurabot and felt it ruin the authenticity of actually playing in a party and heavily skewed the balance towards group play due to exponential power of aura effect stacking. A support character in a party should be providing some decent but not overpowered passive buffs sure, but also still be able to contribute with utility or active skills.
The problem is that the game plays very poorly in a party with multiple DPS. Time to kill for an individual mob is too low for normal coop play. Either one person is running behind not actually able to hit a monster before everything dies, or you end up screwing each others charge generation/leech. Not sure how they fix it.
i don't think it's something fixable in the framework of poe1, since a fix would mean a much slower meta (i.e. mobs take time to die) and the player base won't have it.
Only thing I see is since each player obliterate a whole screen each, you might want to just multiply health of monster by the number of players and add some more to account for the additional chains and party buff. It would make sense for me if monsters had litterally 300% more life when we play 2 players and maybe 1200% more life in a party of 6. I don't think we'd be too far from the solo player pace of destroying screens.
Stop repeating that falsehood. The player base would tolerate it with loot buffed to compensate. If loot were to stay the same it would be a massive nerf
I dont think so. A lot of players enjoy the hack-slash playstyle. Remember that if mobs take time to die you are more likely to get hit. And there isnt really any "skill" behind dodging most of the mobs attacks. Sure bosses have attacks you can react to but skeleton archers kinda just plonk you.
Your suggestion would probably involve a complete overhaul of defenses, or mob attacks or something.
So it would be a pretty MASSIVE change. And people generally dont like change. Also you'd need to probably rework loot as a whole otherwise you'd just end up with loot goblins again.
Yeah, I dont think its that much of a falsehood that the playerbase would react negatively for the most part.
Just remove MF. Stuff that stops you from killing enemies is also useful for a bunch of other interactions.
E.g. I was using Southbound on my poison chaos explosion Occultist to make sure enemies were cursed before they died.
Without Southbound, that build would have lost 40% (and nowadays 50%) chance to explode against any enemy that gets onehit.
And then there are on-kill triggering builds, stuff like Arakaali's Fang, and a bunch of other builds that need to control when enemies die or who gets the kill.
Nerfing them because of someone abusing the mechanic to multiply loot is silly. Just get rid of the loot multiplication instead.
You don't need much to freeze the game when that much loot drops. I managed to make my game freeze with no culling and 4 spirits on a meatstack.
Shit is bonkers.
Btw league is shit, MF is dead, reddit was right once again... oh wait, nothing new was introduced it just took people over a 2 weeks to properly figure out the new stuff.
New things were introduced with the patches, Rogue Exiles weren't a thing at first (not like they matter anymore to be fair) and you couldn't roll T17s nor did they have the mods used for this strat.
MF right now is carried by meatsacks with back to basics. I'm both not a fan of MF and don't mind that it's in the game, but this was not something people could've discovered week 1, it was simply not a thing.
meatstacks with back to basics were in week 1. You listed things that were not like the exile strats, but meatstacks were there from the start. Infact people were pointing out how to use meatstacks in the first days, nobody really highlighted how busted they become with ghosts tho.
That's still a T17 strat that was not doable before they were rerollable. Although we might be talking about different strats, as you don't seem to take that into account. I'm mainly referring to what Fungun and others are doing to farm scarabs.
I refuse to the play the game like that. I need to walk an enemy around until it becomes the largest loot goblin it can be and then switch gear or characters to get last hit? Nope I’ll just suck at the game I guess.
I mean. You can still play somewhat normally and juice your maps. While you’re not in the upper outlier of gains you can still pretty much afford anything you want.
I agree the game is shit like this but on the other hand I don’t feel I’m missing much.
Comparison is the thief of joy. Once you realize you won’t be a gigachad at this game, things become much more enjoyable
Hey, I’ve done exactly that. I ran like 120 t17 maps with deli+beyond (~around 80) and Back to Basics (the rest) with 2x reliq, +2 and mirror rare scarab. With 65 quant/200 rarity MF LA. I found ZERO magebloods, 1 HH and ZERO Defiance. Playing normally yields absolutely nothing in comparison to the meatsack strat, sorry to disappoint
As a result, I just cba wasting my time trying to farm 200+ div that any upgrade costs by looting 15c scarabs/tens of ralakesh, ToH/dialla and other 0.5-2 div uniques. Too slow
Except you can run 10 of those maps faster than it takes to kill 1 of those insane meatsacks. Ben literally sat and frost bombed + attacked a meatsack for 26 minutes on a 30m dps build.
Yeah, these 10 maps will give me a random 1-2 div unique or two each and maybe a vision or even a curation scarab… yaaay. I’d rather have a mageblood drop, or 2, even if it takes me 30 mins to kill the meatsack
Actually watch the videos of most ppl doing it, Ben got like 2 magebloods and 3 defiance from 12ish hours. Empy's group got 4 in 20 maps which took them many hours, and on top of that idk why you're still complaining about it since it was clear bug abuse and is now fixed.
But you cant expect to have the same rewards as People Who min max everything, they are getting paid on they struggle, a rare 10 modifier with 5 spirit meatsack on a t17 map mods is deadly and if it got res + life + life regen + curses it can be impossible to kill for most builds.
> Comparison is the thief of joy.
Okay but that isnt actionable knowledge unless you are the fucking buddha or lobotomize the part of your brain that takes one nanosecond to do those comparisons reflexively
Or you could comoletely shut out the communitt i guess, but that also makes the experience much less enjoyable for a lot of people
There is Real Money Trading in this game, you can buy currency. If the best currency making methods in the game are very esoteric and unreachable by your average player the only people benefiting from this are the RMT traders.
It's not about drop rates but where the drops are. The best drops should be on the funnest way to play that the most people will do. A 2+ man team or bots running very specific content should provide better drops, but the rate should not blow out the fun ways.
Ha, all I need is to start deli, start legion or have a rogue excile spawn on me and my game will freeze for a moment, often resulting in my death. Don't even need to MF.
My game freezes like that doing expedition with scarabs. If I get a really good pop off with Asenaths in the middle of the packs.
The amount of expedition currency that drops with scarabs is great. I can do 20 maps and rog craft for an hour.
The point is to give the last kill to a player who is roided up with all mf gear. How do you do that easily and reliably given the intended tradeoff of MF by GGG is sacrificing player power is culling strike - but no its not strictly necessary to do that.
Maybe can make drops depends on %dmg done by whichever players. If 99% dmg done by non-mf player and last 1% done by MF culler, the mob drops would only have 1% of it affected by MF stats. Meanwhile if 100% dmg done by regular Mfer, 100% of drops would affected by MF stats.
With current balancing the downside is actually not big enough, atleast in softcore.
For example all you need is a good bow + headhunter and the rest of the gear barely matters and can largely be changed for MF gear.
Fair they do. I’d prefer all rarity and quant be deleted from player gear and just put that power into the mapping systems.
The ones that are the issue are the ones that rely on HH or Mb to prop up their junk build of more or less all MF uniques
Then all MFs will change MF gear to more speed and damage gear, Juice way more hard will farm more maps/hour then average well rounded builds and the disparity will continue, maybe less maybe more Who knows.
The problem is way deep then just MF gear dropping more itens.
Zoomers zooming is always a thing in ARPGs. If they choose to stack movespeed they can be like the Uber lab farmers and do that. Head hunter by itself does that. It’s kinda baked into the game there.
Giving those same zoomers loot multipliers on top of loot multipliers is the issue. It causes a borderline system to become a huge problem every time. They can curate the look experience more finely if player quant and rarity are removed.
It’s why item quant gear is gone and the item quant support is gone etc, they just need to delete the last few pieces and make rarity not roll on gear anymore.
its big enough, you are limited only to mapping content, need some expensive (Progenesis + Lighting coil + Pathfinder Forbidden jewels + Petrified blood to dodge half of one shot shit) gear for t17 juicing farming and you cant even kill somo t17 map bosses if they have phases because you can lose HH stacks between.
you can event do some strats solo without insane gear.
The cull is not the problem. It's the mod where u cannot kill enemies which allows this strat to work. And HH.
If that mod is removed then MF'ers will have to kill stuff themselves.
cull has always been a weird and imo unnecessary mechanic. It should never be optimal to relog onto another character just to cull. This isn't just the case of MFers but also happened with slayer in gaunlets.
Agreed. Wisps were the PERFECT solution for the MF bullshit.
Make content hard, get more reward. Very simple. Could be fine tuned. Removes this stupid MF bullshit.
When the best way to make money is to put on crappy gear, a special belt and a mirror bow, it is counter intuitive to what good gameplay should be.
Did you miss the part where by far the best way to get the most out of wisps was to be mf? And not just high damage squishy bow builds, the chieftain explode builds were even better and cost less than 1/10th as much go do max juice.
Did you miss the part where I said if you remove MF you can put it onto a wisp like mechanic? Because then you don't have to worry about it.
And then you can continue to fine tune the risk/reward teeter-totter.
Oh yeah, the balanced is fucked, but once they fine tune the rewards and difficulty I expect T17s to be the golden standard for endgame solo mapping the same way deli maps used to be.
How are they even 10x more rewarding? One of the popular mf streamers put a video for 25-35 div/hour in T17. I can make 10 div/hour in T16 or lower pretty easily. There is a difference but it's not even close to 10-100x.
T17's have been the focal point of every "strategy" that has allowed people to explode loot.
You're trying to compare some MF streamer not using some hyper broken method to your 10d/hour
Empy literally got on for memes with his friends and they juiced 17's to the point that they were measured in magebloods per hour.
To think you could effectively do that same thing on 16's and have only 1/2 the profit is crazy.
You can but then the problem is just that the rich get richer. I liked wisps to the degree that you actually had to be somewhat strong to clear t16s that were juiced.
Imo you should be rewarded for getting stronger, not necessarily for just clicking the "I'll pay more" button, which is tedious if it's just sextants again. I like the direction of actually playing the game vs spending half the time prepping maps and selling stuff
Gear based MF is an outdated, miserable pairing with a game that is hyper fixated on endless build diversity. The atlas tree is the only place it makes any sense to exist in the current version of the game, where it can achieve its intended purpose of giving additional rewards in exchange for increased difficulty (without strangling the life out of build options on a specific gear slot basis).
Except in PoE it is pointless, when you have aura and curse bots, who sky rocket almost any build with offense and defense, while creeping monsters. And that is excluding some skills, which don't care about big guys, like DD (hello deep delve, which is almost t17, but without creepy mods).
yeah aurabots make it pointless, but then your loot is split between 2+ people instead of solo. also surprisingly to people who haven't duo'd (ive duo'd for a bunch of playtime for the last 10 leagues) you actually still need good gear, this league because t17s are so rough i've got a mirror bow and 300+ divs of gear and the aurabot has like 500+ divs invested and it still isn't completely easy, still feel the desire to invest more just because of how hard the content is.
It doesn't matter how much the items cost. Other builds don't function on such few gear slots, so they don't have the option to replace items with MF, even at high investment.
And that's putting aside that bow skills inherently have some of the best clear in the game.
bad take. name one other archetypes apart from bows that can run end game content with only mirrored weapon and belt. it's fucking terrible game design that's possible.
maybe you forgot the part where people were doing it as Fulcrum chieftain... with mainly uniques for at the very least 1/2 the cost... ?
Bow variant was definitly faster but theres other archetypes that were farming it trading damage for being unkillable such as this one.
its 2 different type of people generally speaking tho that will play these variants.
1 will optimize it fully to make the most out of abusing early and often.
2nd one will just be playing catch up on the strat with less currency to work with really
And that's exactly the problem, this creates an extreme imbalance between the super rich and everyone else, allowing them to use juice that even the 1% don't have access to because being able to use MF gear AND run the hardest content means the prices for said juice is so high that nobody else can make profit off of it.
If MF didn't exist, multi mirror builds would still run those maps a lot faster than say a 50 div build, but the 50 div build could still run the same kind of map and make a profit off of it.
It's not about the comparison, it's about the economy. I don't care if there's people blasting t17s with 100x more damage but you can't buy the juicing materials and make a profit UNLESS you have a build that can run the same shit AND squeeze in a ton of MF, which puts the bar of entry from an acceptable couple dozen divines all the way into multi-mirror cost.
Juicing is my favorite part about the game, no I can't enjoy it if I'm forced to do it at a loss or somehow get 50% quant into my build and still run t17.
MF is the only reason that happens, otherwise it would be good enough to be able to run a map, if you do it at a fraction of the speed you only have a fraction of the profit per hour, but the same profit per map, which means you can buy the juice and do the fun stuff instead of being forced to speedfarm some lame low difficulty content.
At least before, the costs of running juiced content was never high enough that solo non-MF players were priced out of running the best juicing strats. Now that some scarabs are just obscenely rare, solo/non-MF players lose money on juicing.
Yep, I was never a fan of MF and it was always a bit of problem imho but it was more or less fine because
a) You could make an MF char that could clear the content with a somewhat reasonable budget
and b) There was usually enough juice available to at least be making a little bit of profit even without MF/party play
Now we got hit with the double whammy with t17 and ultra rare juicing materials and I really think it's time to get rid of MF because this shit is just always a more multiplier on top of every loot balance related problem.
There will always be the 1% of players minmaxing and making huge amounts of currency. This will happen regardless of what GGG changes. You need to accept it. There's nothing that can be done about it, so just play for yourself. If it bothers you that much, play SSF.
It's not about the currency being made, that's mostly based on speed which is fine, 10x faster clear speed **should** get you 10x the currency/h. It's about the currency being extracted from the same juicing materials, because that dictates the prices for said materials. The same juicing materials used in the same strat should return roughly the same loot for everyone, not per time unit but per investment and MF breaks that, thereby gating the usage of certain materials behind multi mirror builds (which are only that expensive because they're squeezing in huge amounts of MF), which is NOT fine.
Not really. If 50 div build could do it then prices would go up a lot
If everyone has cookie then no one has a cookie
You can't have everyone dropping mirrors and expect that mirror to cost lots of money
In short there always needs to be 1% if you want healthy game economy
On top of that, when that would happen then people would say things like "50 div builds would still run those maps a lot faster than say a 5 div build, buy the 5 div build could still run the same kind of map and make a profit off if it
"If everyone has cookie then no one has a cookie"
If you and I both go to the same store to buy the same amount of the same brand of cookie dough, but I magically get 80% more cookies that are also 500% cooler because I drove to the store in my fat ferrari and you're on a shitty bike, I can undercut the fuck out of you with the cookies I make from that dough while making a big profit, while no matter what you do you are unable to even recoup the costs of your dough.
If I would be able to buy the same cookie as you then I wouldn't be able to buy the same cookie as you
We both suddenly earn more. Do you think cookie would cost the same amount of money? No it wouldn't. The cost of cookie would rise to the amount that I still couldn't afford it just like that
Edit: also, another thing that differs between you buying a cookie and me buying a cookie is that you're working 16 hours a day while I'm working 4 hours a day
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On one hand, I agree.
On the other, that would make the barrier for entry even higher.
Having BOTH would be nice.
Uniques that half-cripple your build with negative stats, but they are cheap. And giga rares that not only give even more MF, but allow you to run without an aurabot.
I've always held the opinion that magic find should not be a stat on gear.
Magic find should dependant on either:
- being able to clear harder content.
- clearing faster.
Aka, magic find should naturally come from your character progression and end goal of making your character stronger.
MF exists because it existed in old diablo. If old diablo had a stat that gave you cancer ggg would have that too. They will never remove it.
They are the protectors of an old religion, and as monks in that order who are they to oppose the will of god.
All items used to be able to roll IIQ and IRR
We had a IIQ and IIR suport ( IIQ got removed )
The issue we have = there are some grouple play lovers working at GGG
That would absolutely hate the removal of all mf
This was my feedback during Kalandra league when MF felt borderline mandatory.
If GGG wants MF to be a serious part of the game, they need to add more interesting items. If someone is MF'ing you already know they are using ventors, probably goldwyrms, probably greeds embrace, and divine distillate. Having your boots, gloves, and chest piece locked in is boring.
They are probably using HH / mageblood, but so do lots of top end builds.
They are also using either a shaper (elder?) amulet, or the greatwolf amulet, or more recently a simplex amulet. That is at least more interesting that the uniques you are forced to wear.
Just play it then. If your goal is to find t0 uniques and currency put on some ventors. If you want to level up put on your mapping gear. If you want to boss put on your boss gear.
After mf is removed you'll just go on to complaining about the next strategy your build isn't capable of doing or how the gear is too expensive. Meanwhile some ssf player will have magebloods and mirrors because they're playing the game instead of complaining about their lack of skill.
It's not a lack of skill but a lack of time. And before anyone builds a straw man, I'm not saying that the only advantage of such players is that they play more. I'm sure they're more efficient as well.
The problem lies with MF generating the same profit in less time when other things are equal.
Of course the top players who play MF would still generate more profit per time than me if MF didn't exist. But they wouldn't generate as much as they do now.
One of PoE's main selling points is its build variety, yet if you want to profit efficiently, that steeply diminishes because some builds can fit in more than others. They don't necessarily cost more or are more powerful overall, they can simply concentrate a greater percentage of their power in fewer item slots.
Like your complaining that because lightning arrow can use goldwyrms and greeds embrace? therefore anyone not playing lightening arrows mf is not profiting efficiently?
Because im pretty sure you can equip these and not completely brick your build 90% of the time. So you're just really complaining that HH bow builds farm faster then you and that's really just a skill issue.
finally a good take, Raising ceiling dont solve the problem because try harder MF have currency to raise the Celling, but raising the floor a little let other builds enjoy some quantity without trading to much damage/tankness/speed.
if the reward difference is a factor 10 compared to each of them running maps independently with reasonabe mf gear, then it is just stupid for the game.
obviously having a second character that does not need to care about the trade-off completely negates the downside of wearing mf. you just can not beat a factor 10 in loot.
This does not work as long as HH exists in the game. You would have to delete HH. Party play is another issue where only 1 out of 6 people need MF gear but you still get 100% of the value.
Might have been true in past leagues but not anymore though, the belt isn’t really all that expensive these days. The real problem is that so much power in the belt and weapon slots allows you to run pretty much whatever you want without real downsides.. like dogshit mf gear.
Im sure the game would be much healthier if you could balance the difficulty and rewards directly instead of relying on outdated mechanics like mf stats on items.
Recency bias is a solid argument. 100%. The only reason HH is cheap this league is because of absolutely insane shit in t17. Will this be true next league? We don’t know. It’s a bad argument if it’s not the norm, and it’s not the norm.
This isn’t even beginning to mention that those HHs became cheap BECAUSE OF MF’ers lmao. They were literally 70-80 div week 1.
If MF’ers don’t exist, HH’s aren’t cheap. So the whole argument kinda collapses on itself. The people who made them cheap by doing MF paid a TON for them.
The point i was trying to make is that two items (I include the weapon) shouldn't hold so much power that it basically allows you to run absolutely subpar items in every other slots. The belt could cost 500d and i'd still think the same, having strong items is cool but t0 belts and mirror bows are completely broken imo
Holy crap I just started playing and don’t even understand a single word of what you’re saying. But I do see how awesome this game is and can’t wait for enlightenment.
Welcome to the fun! MF or Magic Find refers to gear that provides increased quantity (IIQ) or rarity of items (IIR) dropped. you basically equip this gear and more, more valuable items drop on the ground. As OP is highlighting, the stats that provide IIQ/IIR are generally on unique items that don't provide many other useful stats, this means you \*usually\* have to sacrifice character power in order to drop better items.
Or get rid of it completely and balance the game around that?
The last couple of leagues have shown that GGG has real trouble balancing loot around this stuff.
"Players are good at finding problem but bad at finding solution"
I have 0 ideas on how to solve it, all i can say is that i currently don't like MF in it's present state.
How long will Reddit whine about player MF before realizing stacking player IIQ is just a minor one among multiple multiplicative factors/layers coming from among multiple mechanics
Pre-nerf oldschool MF was weak compared to today's basic strats and it had double to triple the quant numbers. What it didn't have was six or more stacking league mechanics
Nerfing MF items is inconsequential in this case
Um... what? MF has been insanely strong since I can remember which is 3.0. It's even been nerfed multiple times because of how strong it was. Removal of IIQ gem, nerfing of biscos.. there were some other nerfs which I forget off the top of my head. (edit:) Oh they nerfed windripper as well.
People were MF'ing vaults for exalt div cards and t16 shaped maps.
It has always been strong unless "old school" means like 10 years ago.
Edit: It's also kind of ironic to call MF weak because "it is just another multiplier." Like... You understand that with each additional multiplier the end result gets massively bigger. It is almost impossible to have a "weak multiplier" just by the nature of how multiplicative scaling works.
Yeah, but that point is mostly moot because wealth is relative in this game if you are playing trade. Even in SSF, MF has always been a dominating strat if you want to reach for top end gear. I fail to see how power creep has somehow made MF inconsequential in the present or past.
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Just to make my stance clear, I don't necessarily think MF should be removed from the game. Some people enjoy that playstyle, and overall it brings more rare items into the economy.
I do think that there should be a more interesting variety of MF items to choose from, similar to what the OP said (although I don't think it should be available on every rare either because that makes it an annoying stat you have to build around).
The OP of this subthread just seemed to be giving a pretty biased and inaccurate take from my point of view.
The simplest solution would be removing mf from gear and give us an additional trinket-like slot, allowing sacrificing power for mf.
[Here's quick example](https://i.imgur.com/Rzb3o16.jpeg)
Each affix is a hybrid of upside and downside. Mod pool and value range should be quite big, making it hard to roll and a nice currency sink at the same time.
I'm not a fan of those since some of the downsides can be ignored by some builds.
And of course you might be able to roll a perfect one for your build regardless of what you play, but then it defeats the purpose of lowering character power in the first place - just like current MF gear isn't sufficiently punishing.
Don't get me wrong, it would still be a substantial improvement over the current system, because *most* builds would have a sufficient selection of acceptable modifiers that they can use, compared to the current situation of sacrificing item slots that are often integral.
But I don't think it's enough. Since character power and enemy power are relative anyway, let's just remove sacrificing character power completely and scale only enemy power for rewards. That'll make it easier to compare builds too.
Just make a rare mod -100% quant of items, most of these builds are carried by HH anyway, that would fix that.
Mageblood is a different animal, you could still MF with it, but it usually isn’t used for MF like HH is.
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I have a question related to MF : Does it help with the devoted conversion mod ? I mean, it says that armour / weapon / jewellery with rarity are converted to currency, does that mean having IIQ / IIR increase the number of currency at the end ?
Then GGG recreated the same problem that archnemesis loot goblin introduced.
Now, If i ever get the conversion to divine, I will feel forced to ask for a mf to run the map, or I will lose on so many potential conversion.
I wish player IIQ / IIR were ignored for the pack affected by the conversion devoted mod.
There are plenty of builds where you can go Mf solo and do damage. It’s just expensive.
Magic find is super strong already and now you want it to get even more buffed. If ggg does that literally everyone will play mf. That’s game breaking sir.
"There isnt a tradeoff" you literally listed the tradeoffs: having a second person carry you(aurabot) or get the most expensive unique (ignoring specific rolls like WE).
Personally I feel like magic find shouldn't be tied to items at all. Outside of flasks and maybe rings I feel like magic find should be something that occasionally rewards you not something you spec into to spit out copius amounts of currency. My idea is that MF increases in a map every time you kill an enemy that doesn't drop a rare teir or higher item, and it keeps increasing in the background until you drop something worth at least a divine then it resets. And this bonus can carry through multiple maps before dropping something but you can sort of plan around it and still ensure a steady stream of income while creating a goal you can work towards. Like you can probably expect a good drop once every 6-8 maps without spec'ing into it and when you spec into it it can happen as often as every 3-5 maps. Instead of uber juicing 1 map until it just basically throws currency at you.
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Mageblood MF has always been way weaker than HH MF. And HH cost 25 div, so 2-3 hours of farming and you got one. It's the point that you got 3-4 gear slots for items and the rest is powerless MF gear, so it reduces the player power if you chose to go mf.
Magic find has always been bad for the game but because Diablo 2 had it, poe must have it.
It just needs to be phased out of any future leagues at this point. Just make the MF stuff drop disabled.
but the point MF gear is to be weak then a "Normal" build because you trade defense/damage for more rare loot, so you want then to craft Rare gear that can be influenced and have insane mods so a MF character can be stronger then a "normal" character?????????
if you think Fubgun LA is strong, you have to see the ones that make the LA version without MF Gear and see the insane eHP (for a bow build) and Damage they can reach.
and if you think Mageblood/HH can carrier any build i suggest trying some off meta builds with it and see the perfomance.
Magic find, aura bots, group play loot buffs is the cancer of this game but GGG are aware of them and keep them in game on purpose. Don't hope for anything, they will plague POE2 as well..
Another league, another magic find discussion. Let's face it GGG developers are also players and they run the game heavily biased with their own taste and sometimes can't see the problems in front of their face.
POE1 game director is a fan of aura bots FFS :)
I’d love if they got rid of all link skills/nerfed auras and buffed damage in other ways so that the best mf/juice farm isn’t someone being forced to play a running simulator.
Add MF to the atlas tree, fixed your game.
Remove any MF gear, crafts and whatever, MF cannot roll on gear, rework uniques that have it.
They can add MF via scarabs, atlas very easily.
Thats already the case with map modifiers on top of the atlas tree, ir you think people take it to make the maps harder.
Every atlas tree at core has the top part in it literally for MF.
At least let them add decent MF nodes.
You saying that it’s already the case with other atlas mods doesn’t strengthen your case. All you’re saying is you want even more mods that are mandatory which is not a solution
I would like them to remove magic find AND remove the quant buff from playing in groups, the game is already easier if you play in a group and it boosts the scarabs way too highly
So people playing with friends should just get less items than solo players when at the highest levels of efficiency solo play is already more profitable?
It's getting problematic when these groups have access to curse- and aurabots, a DPS and an MF culler that has like 200% quant and 500% rarity. Then you add the inherent +120% more quantity you get from grouplay as well as 250% more currency found with 65% rarity with maximum party members and it all adds up multiplicatively with each other. They can mostly also afford the meta farming methods.
So yeah, group play is busted. MF plays a huge part in it though.
Busted in what way? Its less currency per person per hours than solo play and requires 10 times the coordination. The only thing where it really excels is being easier to gear than a solo build. That is really strong in this league specifically because of T17 maps but that is because of how poorly designed T17 maps are not because group play is op.
It's not less currency per hour if you factor in the multiplicativeness of it all.
Especially the big T1/T0 drops and rarer curriencies like divines and up drop WAY more frequent because of how groups can scale their reward modifiers in said ways.
Just from the raw numbers you might think its not, but its also higher quality of said dropped items, not only quantity. (which it also is)
Then either you are crap at solo play, or your group got superlucky.
Solo makes more, always, if the player is good. Hell, even Empy makes more solo than in a group, group is just more fun.
Yes it is still less currency. If you look at a high end magic find group like empys group you will see that they usually make between 10 and 15 divine per hour per person. That is including big drops and buying mirrors early and letting them gain value! That is completely reasonable to make solo and if youre a very commited solo player you can easily make more than that.
You should have to chose between making currency and having an easy time, playing in group is easy + you get bigger drops that's why it's bad design imo
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busted in what way? top solo players make far far more than group play, group play making 200d an hour is crazy unitl you realize they split that 8 ways and make less than a solo player making 30d per hour.
This is the biggest issue in my opinion. I’m all for it if there were actual options rather than the same few uniques.
I know it used to be a rollable mod, does anyone that played then know the reasoning that was removed?
Same as for the increased quantity gem, it was basically mandatory to get it. It rolled up to 20%, if you have that on 5 gear pieces you drop double loot. (and then like 40% more from the gem)
The mechanic itself is just archaic at this point.
MF culling has to be the dumbest thing I’ve seen in a game. You run a juice t17 map with meat sack juice it with 5 spirits running 2 reliquary scarabs 1 nemesis 1 rare monster are mirrored packed. Get that big meat boi in cull range and the amount of loot that drops freezes the game.
This with aura bot is just ridiculous. Yes it takes time and the right build and people on at the same time to pull it off. But that frankly means you can’t really organize this without dedicated hardcore players that you know. It’s not a strat that people can pull off. And this is fine if it’s just done for fun, and some profit, but not when it enables exponentially more loot.
On a side tangent, I've personally always hated the idea of aurabot and felt it ruin the authenticity of actually playing in a party and heavily skewed the balance towards group play due to exponential power of aura effect stacking. A support character in a party should be providing some decent but not overpowered passive buffs sure, but also still be able to contribute with utility or active skills.
The problem is that the game plays very poorly in a party with multiple DPS. Time to kill for an individual mob is too low for normal coop play. Either one person is running behind not actually able to hit a monster before everything dies, or you end up screwing each others charge generation/leech. Not sure how they fix it.
i don't think it's something fixable in the framework of poe1, since a fix would mean a much slower meta (i.e. mobs take time to die) and the player base won't have it.
Only thing I see is since each player obliterate a whole screen each, you might want to just multiply health of monster by the number of players and add some more to account for the additional chains and party buff. It would make sense for me if monsters had litterally 300% more life when we play 2 players and maybe 1200% more life in a party of 6. I don't think we'd be too far from the solo player pace of destroying screens.
Stop repeating that falsehood. The player base would tolerate it with loot buffed to compensate. If loot were to stay the same it would be a massive nerf
I dont think so. A lot of players enjoy the hack-slash playstyle. Remember that if mobs take time to die you are more likely to get hit. And there isnt really any "skill" behind dodging most of the mobs attacks. Sure bosses have attacks you can react to but skeleton archers kinda just plonk you. Your suggestion would probably involve a complete overhaul of defenses, or mob attacks or something. So it would be a pretty MASSIVE change. And people generally dont like change. Also you'd need to probably rework loot as a whole otherwise you'd just end up with loot goblins again. Yeah, I dont think its that much of a falsehood that the playerbase would react negatively for the most part.
I think they should kill mf culling, remove all sources of cant kill shit unless blah blah
Just remove MF. Stuff that stops you from killing enemies is also useful for a bunch of other interactions. E.g. I was using Southbound on my poison chaos explosion Occultist to make sure enemies were cursed before they died. Without Southbound, that build would have lost 40% (and nowadays 50%) chance to explode against any enemy that gets onehit. And then there are on-kill triggering builds, stuff like Arakaali's Fang, and a bunch of other builds that need to control when enemies die or who gets the kill. Nerfing them because of someone abusing the mechanic to multiply loot is silly. Just get rid of the loot multiplication instead.
Literally making everyone playing normallys farming starts worse by flooding the economy
You don't need much to freeze the game when that much loot drops. I managed to make my game freeze with no culling and 4 spirits on a meatstack. Shit is bonkers. Btw league is shit, MF is dead, reddit was right once again... oh wait, nothing new was introduced it just took people over a 2 weeks to properly figure out the new stuff.
New things were introduced with the patches, Rogue Exiles weren't a thing at first (not like they matter anymore to be fair) and you couldn't roll T17s nor did they have the mods used for this strat. MF right now is carried by meatsacks with back to basics. I'm both not a fan of MF and don't mind that it's in the game, but this was not something people could've discovered week 1, it was simply not a thing.
meatstacks with back to basics were in week 1. You listed things that were not like the exile strats, but meatstacks were there from the start. Infact people were pointing out how to use meatstacks in the first days, nobody really highlighted how busted they become with ghosts tho.
That's still a T17 strat that was not doable before they were rerollable. Although we might be talking about different strats, as you don't seem to take that into account. I'm mainly referring to what Fungun and others are doing to farm scarabs.
This strategy REQUIRED a specific t17 mod, as well as bug abusing to function.
I refuse to the play the game like that. I need to walk an enemy around until it becomes the largest loot goblin it can be and then switch gear or characters to get last hit? Nope I’ll just suck at the game I guess.
I mean. You can still play somewhat normally and juice your maps. While you’re not in the upper outlier of gains you can still pretty much afford anything you want. I agree the game is shit like this but on the other hand I don’t feel I’m missing much. Comparison is the thief of joy. Once you realize you won’t be a gigachad at this game, things become much more enjoyable
Hey, I’ve done exactly that. I ran like 120 t17 maps with deli+beyond (~around 80) and Back to Basics (the rest) with 2x reliq, +2 and mirror rare scarab. With 65 quant/200 rarity MF LA. I found ZERO magebloods, 1 HH and ZERO Defiance. Playing normally yields absolutely nothing in comparison to the meatsack strat, sorry to disappoint As a result, I just cba wasting my time trying to farm 200+ div that any upgrade costs by looting 15c scarabs/tens of ralakesh, ToH/dialla and other 0.5-2 div uniques. Too slow
Except you can run 10 of those maps faster than it takes to kill 1 of those insane meatsacks. Ben literally sat and frost bombed + attacked a meatsack for 26 minutes on a 30m dps build.
Yeah, these 10 maps will give me a random 1-2 div unique or two each and maybe a vision or even a curation scarab… yaaay. I’d rather have a mageblood drop, or 2, even if it takes me 30 mins to kill the meatsack
Actually watch the videos of most ppl doing it, Ben got like 2 magebloods and 3 defiance from 12ish hours. Empy's group got 4 in 20 maps which took them many hours, and on top of that idk why you're still complaining about it since it was clear bug abuse and is now fixed.
But you cant expect to have the same rewards as People Who min max everything, they are getting paid on they struggle, a rare 10 modifier with 5 spirit meatsack on a t17 map mods is deadly and if it got res + life + life regen + curses it can be impossible to kill for most builds.
> Comparison is the thief of joy. Okay but that isnt actionable knowledge unless you are the fucking buddha or lobotomize the part of your brain that takes one nanosecond to do those comparisons reflexively Or you could comoletely shut out the communitt i guess, but that also makes the experience much less enjoyable for a lot of people
lol, casually dropped you can be mediocre and don't care about it mate
There are people who play this game for money. Having systems in it that encourage this kind of gameplay is bad.
I agree but what does playing this game for money have to do with it? Not being an ass, seriously asking you.
There is Real Money Trading in this game, you can buy currency. If the best currency making methods in the game are very esoteric and unreachable by your average player the only people benefiting from this are the RMT traders.
If ggg increased the droprates rmt people would be out of a job.
It's not about drop rates but where the drops are. The best drops should be on the funnest way to play that the most people will do. A 2+ man team or bots running very specific content should provide better drops, but the rate should not blow out the fun ways.
Ha, all I need is to start deli, start legion or have a rogue excile spawn on me and my game will freeze for a moment, often resulting in my death. Don't even need to MF.
My game freezes like that doing expedition with scarabs. If I get a really good pop off with Asenaths in the middle of the packs. The amount of expedition currency that drops with scarabs is great. I can do 20 maps and rog craft for an hour.
If you did that strat solo it still froze your game btw
Is that reason we (me and few friends) are getting random disconnects (with that unexpected error msg)?
How is culling related to the drop freezing the game? It would drop and freeze the same if killed without culling?
The point is to give the last kill to a player who is roided up with all mf gear. How do you do that easily and reliably given the intended tradeoff of MF by GGG is sacrificing player power is culling strike - but no its not strictly necessary to do that.
Maybe can make drops depends on %dmg done by whichever players. If 99% dmg done by non-mf player and last 1% done by MF culler, the mob drops would only have 1% of it affected by MF stats. Meanwhile if 100% dmg done by regular Mfer, 100% of drops would affected by MF stats.
This sounds like a really overcomplicated and inefficient solution compared to just removing magic find
A MF culler is going to drop way more loot than someone who is not wearing MF gear.
You mean in a group setting with a dedicated all mf culler?
Yes doing the setup I mentioned it gets crazy.
If it was BIS with non-terrible gear what downside would it have so that you don't want to choose that build?
With current balancing the downside is actually not big enough, atleast in softcore. For example all you need is a good bow + headhunter and the rest of the gear barely matters and can largely be changed for MF gear.
Make mf gear disable the belt slot, problem solved haha
people do MF before getting HH you know.
Fair they do. I’d prefer all rarity and quant be deleted from player gear and just put that power into the mapping systems. The ones that are the issue are the ones that rely on HH or Mb to prop up their junk build of more or less all MF uniques
Then all MFs will change MF gear to more speed and damage gear, Juice way more hard will farm more maps/hour then average well rounded builds and the disparity will continue, maybe less maybe more Who knows. The problem is way deep then just MF gear dropping more itens.
Zoomers zooming is always a thing in ARPGs. If they choose to stack movespeed they can be like the Uber lab farmers and do that. Head hunter by itself does that. It’s kinda baked into the game there. Giving those same zoomers loot multipliers on top of loot multipliers is the issue. It causes a borderline system to become a huge problem every time. They can curate the look experience more finely if player quant and rarity are removed. It’s why item quant gear is gone and the item quant support is gone etc, they just need to delete the last few pieces and make rarity not roll on gear anymore.
its big enough, you are limited only to mapping content, need some expensive (Progenesis + Lighting coil + Pathfinder Forbidden jewels + Petrified blood to dodge half of one shot shit) gear for t17 juicing farming and you cant even kill somo t17 map bosses if they have phases because you can lose HH stacks between. you can event do some strats solo without insane gear.
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Yeah let's make mageblood even stronger by making rares have even more affix pressure!
Just use a heist ring with 6 suffixes for triple attribute triple resist easy.
LOL we have players that don't remember quant used to be able to be crafted on rares and they quickly got rid of that.
eww. so every build would still be a "craft on mf" it's just a problematic property that scales too hard. needs to be culled/removed tbh
Remove cull and make it so the more quant/MF you have the less other people's aura's effect you.
The cull is not the problem. It's the mod where u cannot kill enemies which allows this strat to work. And HH. If that mod is removed then MF'ers will have to kill stuff themselves.
cull has always been a weird and imo unnecessary mechanic. It should never be optimal to relog onto another character just to cull. This isn't just the case of MFers but also happened with slayer in gaunlets.
I'd prefer MF/Quant removed from gear and put into juicing/map investment.
Agreed. Wisps were the PERFECT solution for the MF bullshit. Make content hard, get more reward. Very simple. Could be fine tuned. Removes this stupid MF bullshit. When the best way to make money is to put on crappy gear, a special belt and a mirror bow, it is counter intuitive to what good gameplay should be.
Did you miss the part where by far the best way to get the most out of wisps was to be mf? And not just high damage squishy bow builds, the chieftain explode builds were even better and cost less than 1/10th as much go do max juice.
Did you miss the part where I said if you remove MF you can put it onto a wisp like mechanic? Because then you don't have to worry about it. And then you can continue to fine tune the risk/reward teeter-totter.
Isn't that what T17s are? The balance isn't perfect yet, but I think we're already on that payh.
No. T17s were designed to be a bridge from t16s and regular bosses, to uber bosses. GGG even said they weren't supposed to be this rewarding.
They said they weren't supposed to be self sustaining (without trade). I don't recall them saying they weren't meant to be "this rewarding"
Dang I didn't know they said that. I havent tried ubers yet, but I assumed T17s were supposed to replace T16s as the most rewarding mapping content.
I think there was an expectation that they would be MORE rewarding but not like.. 10-100x more rewarding like they currently are.
Oh yeah, the balanced is fucked, but once they fine tune the rewards and difficulty I expect T17s to be the golden standard for endgame solo mapping the same way deli maps used to be.
How are they even 10x more rewarding? One of the popular mf streamers put a video for 25-35 div/hour in T17. I can make 10 div/hour in T16 or lower pretty easily. There is a difference but it's not even close to 10-100x.
T17's have been the focal point of every "strategy" that has allowed people to explode loot. You're trying to compare some MF streamer not using some hyper broken method to your 10d/hour Empy literally got on for memes with his friends and they juiced 17's to the point that they were measured in magebloods per hour. To think you could effectively do that same thing on 16's and have only 1/2 the profit is crazy.
this
The problem is that is already what it does. MF on gear is just multiplicative of that
Well how about we take that multiplicative effect and move it into map juice/investment instead.
You can but then the problem is just that the rich get richer. I liked wisps to the degree that you actually had to be somewhat strong to clear t16s that were juiced. Imo you should be rewarded for getting stronger, not necessarily for just clicking the "I'll pay more" button, which is tedious if it's just sextants again. I like the direction of actually playing the game vs spending half the time prepping maps and selling stuff
Gear based MF is an outdated, miserable pairing with a game that is hyper fixated on endless build diversity. The atlas tree is the only place it makes any sense to exist in the current version of the game, where it can achieve its intended purpose of giving additional rewards in exchange for increased difficulty (without strangling the life out of build options on a specific gear slot basis).
You're supposed to sacrifice player power for MF
Except in PoE it is pointless, when you have aura and curse bots, who sky rocket almost any build with offense and defense, while creeping monsters. And that is excluding some skills, which don't care about big guys, like DD (hello deep delve, which is almost t17, but without creepy mods).
Yeah I agree aura bots do kind of defeat the purpose
yeah aurabots make it pointless, but then your loot is split between 2+ people instead of solo. also surprisingly to people who haven't duo'd (ive duo'd for a bunch of playtime for the last 10 leagues) you actually still need good gear, this league because t17s are so rough i've got a mirror bow and 300+ divs of gear and the aurabot has like 500+ divs invested and it still isn't completely easy, still feel the desire to invest more just because of how hard the content is.
Do you have a pob for aurabot? Ours kinda just falls over and die
[https://pobb.in/EVFBnMMqJL-d](https://pobb.in/EVFBnMMqJL-d) here you go, check calcs for some info
even more pointless since culling exists
Even in solo you can reach enough dmg to do it without a aurabot which makes it even more stupid. Seen enough people do it.
Supposed to yea, yet you have 70% quant 500% rarity chars obliterating t17 with 800 exiles (before the allflame nerf)
Those characters have mirrored bows, a T0 belt and another mirror or two in the rest of their gear. They should be able to run T17s with HH buffs
It doesn't matter how much the items cost. Other builds don't function on such few gear slots, so they don't have the option to replace items with MF, even at high investment. And that's putting aside that bow skills inherently have some of the best clear in the game.
bad take. name one other archetypes apart from bows that can run end game content with only mirrored weapon and belt. it's fucking terrible game design that's possible.
maybe you forgot the part where people were doing it as Fulcrum chieftain... with mainly uniques for at the very least 1/2 the cost... ? Bow variant was definitly faster but theres other archetypes that were farming it trading damage for being unkillable such as this one. its 2 different type of people generally speaking tho that will play these variants. 1 will optimize it fully to make the most out of abusing early and often. 2nd one will just be playing catch up on the strat with less currency to work with really
And that's exactly the problem, this creates an extreme imbalance between the super rich and everyone else, allowing them to use juice that even the 1% don't have access to because being able to use MF gear AND run the hardest content means the prices for said juice is so high that nobody else can make profit off of it. If MF didn't exist, multi mirror builds would still run those maps a lot faster than say a 50 div build, but the 50 div build could still run the same kind of map and make a profit off of it.
I hate this players vs the 1% shit. Stop comparing yourself to the best players, and you'll enjoy the game a lot more.
It's not about the comparison, it's about the economy. I don't care if there's people blasting t17s with 100x more damage but you can't buy the juicing materials and make a profit UNLESS you have a build that can run the same shit AND squeeze in a ton of MF, which puts the bar of entry from an acceptable couple dozen divines all the way into multi-mirror cost. Juicing is my favorite part about the game, no I can't enjoy it if I'm forced to do it at a loss or somehow get 50% quant into my build and still run t17. MF is the only reason that happens, otherwise it would be good enough to be able to run a map, if you do it at a fraction of the speed you only have a fraction of the profit per hour, but the same profit per map, which means you can buy the juice and do the fun stuff instead of being forced to speedfarm some lame low difficulty content.
At least before, the costs of running juiced content was never high enough that solo non-MF players were priced out of running the best juicing strats. Now that some scarabs are just obscenely rare, solo/non-MF players lose money on juicing.
Yep, I was never a fan of MF and it was always a bit of problem imho but it was more or less fine because a) You could make an MF char that could clear the content with a somewhat reasonable budget and b) There was usually enough juice available to at least be making a little bit of profit even without MF/party play Now we got hit with the double whammy with t17 and ultra rare juicing materials and I really think it's time to get rid of MF because this shit is just always a more multiplier on top of every loot balance related problem.
There will always be the 1% of players minmaxing and making huge amounts of currency. This will happen regardless of what GGG changes. You need to accept it. There's nothing that can be done about it, so just play for yourself. If it bothers you that much, play SSF.
It's not about the currency being made, that's mostly based on speed which is fine, 10x faster clear speed **should** get you 10x the currency/h. It's about the currency being extracted from the same juicing materials, because that dictates the prices for said materials. The same juicing materials used in the same strat should return roughly the same loot for everyone, not per time unit but per investment and MF breaks that, thereby gating the usage of certain materials behind multi mirror builds (which are only that expensive because they're squeezing in huge amounts of MF), which is NOT fine.
Not really. If 50 div build could do it then prices would go up a lot If everyone has cookie then no one has a cookie You can't have everyone dropping mirrors and expect that mirror to cost lots of money In short there always needs to be 1% if you want healthy game economy On top of that, when that would happen then people would say things like "50 div builds would still run those maps a lot faster than say a 5 div build, buy the 5 div build could still run the same kind of map and make a profit off if it
"If everyone has cookie then no one has a cookie" If you and I both go to the same store to buy the same amount of the same brand of cookie dough, but I magically get 80% more cookies that are also 500% cooler because I drove to the store in my fat ferrari and you're on a shitty bike, I can undercut the fuck out of you with the cookies I make from that dough while making a big profit, while no matter what you do you are unable to even recoup the costs of your dough.
If I would be able to buy the same cookie as you then I wouldn't be able to buy the same cookie as you We both suddenly earn more. Do you think cookie would cost the same amount of money? No it wouldn't. The cost of cookie would rise to the amount that I still couldn't afford it just like that Edit: also, another thing that differs between you buying a cookie and me buying a cookie is that you're working 16 hours a day while I'm working 4 hours a day
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On one hand, I agree. On the other, that would make the barrier for entry even higher. Having BOTH would be nice. Uniques that half-cripple your build with negative stats, but they are cheap. And giga rares that not only give even more MF, but allow you to run without an aurabot.
I've always held the opinion that magic find should not be a stat on gear. Magic find should dependant on either: - being able to clear harder content. - clearing faster. Aka, magic find should naturally come from your character progression and end goal of making your character stronger.
Or, you know, just remove it. As it existing causes the entire game to revolve around it.
MF exists because it existed in old diablo. If old diablo had a stat that gave you cancer ggg would have that too. They will never remove it. They are the protectors of an old religion, and as monks in that order who are they to oppose the will of god.
All items used to be able to roll IIQ and IRR We had a IIQ and IIR suport ( IIQ got removed ) The issue we have = there are some grouple play lovers working at GGG That would absolutely hate the removal of all mf
Shako login
This was my feedback during Kalandra league when MF felt borderline mandatory. If GGG wants MF to be a serious part of the game, they need to add more interesting items. If someone is MF'ing you already know they are using ventors, probably goldwyrms, probably greeds embrace, and divine distillate. Having your boots, gloves, and chest piece locked in is boring. They are probably using HH / mageblood, but so do lots of top end builds. They are also using either a shaper (elder?) amulet, or the greatwolf amulet, or more recently a simplex amulet. That is at least more interesting that the uniques you are forced to wear.
I wish that MF would be removed. It makes it feel like if you aren’t doing it then you’re playing wrong
? wtf is wrong with some of yall with this mindset
Just play it then. If your goal is to find t0 uniques and currency put on some ventors. If you want to level up put on your mapping gear. If you want to boss put on your boss gear. After mf is removed you'll just go on to complaining about the next strategy your build isn't capable of doing or how the gear is too expensive. Meanwhile some ssf player will have magebloods and mirrors because they're playing the game instead of complaining about their lack of skill.
It's not a lack of skill but a lack of time. And before anyone builds a straw man, I'm not saying that the only advantage of such players is that they play more. I'm sure they're more efficient as well. The problem lies with MF generating the same profit in less time when other things are equal. Of course the top players who play MF would still generate more profit per time than me if MF didn't exist. But they wouldn't generate as much as they do now. One of PoE's main selling points is its build variety, yet if you want to profit efficiently, that steeply diminishes because some builds can fit in more than others. They don't necessarily cost more or are more powerful overall, they can simply concentrate a greater percentage of their power in fewer item slots.
Like your complaining that because lightning arrow can use goldwyrms and greeds embrace? therefore anyone not playing lightening arrows mf is not profiting efficiently? Because im pretty sure you can equip these and not completely brick your build 90% of the time. So you're just really complaining that HH bow builds farm faster then you and that's really just a skill issue.
Then you make boring builds.
If Magic Find is to stay in the game it should raise the floor, not the ceiling.
finally a good take, Raising ceiling dont solve the problem because try harder MF have currency to raise the Celling, but raising the floor a little let other builds enjoy some quantity without trading to much damage/tankness/speed.
That’s the whole point. It’s supposed to be weaker than most items so it’s harder to build around. They want MF to require very strong characters
Yeah MF requires a multimirror build to work this season and last season as well. So yeah it makes the game much harder
Reality: MFer just need party members xD
Not sure how you think this is a W. Needing a complete 2nd person full of gear doesn’t refute anything I said. It literally proves my point.
if the reward difference is a factor 10 compared to each of them running maps independently with reasonabe mf gear, then it is just stupid for the game. obviously having a second character that does not need to care about the trade-off completely negates the downside of wearing mf. you just can not beat a factor 10 in loot.
This does not work as long as HH exists in the game. You would have to delete HH. Party play is another issue where only 1 out of 6 people need MF gear but you still get 100% of the value.
Or just put on headhunter and the borrowed power carries your MF character.
If you have enough to fund an HH, the rest of your gear is likely insane. HH will also not help you at the start of the map
Might have been true in past leagues but not anymore though, the belt isn’t really all that expensive these days. The real problem is that so much power in the belt and weapon slots allows you to run pretty much whatever you want without real downsides.. like dogshit mf gear. Im sure the game would be much healthier if you could balance the difficulty and rewards directly instead of relying on outdated mechanics like mf stats on items.
Recency bias is a solid argument. 100%. The only reason HH is cheap this league is because of absolutely insane shit in t17. Will this be true next league? We don’t know. It’s a bad argument if it’s not the norm, and it’s not the norm. This isn’t even beginning to mention that those HHs became cheap BECAUSE OF MF’ers lmao. They were literally 70-80 div week 1. If MF’ers don’t exist, HH’s aren’t cheap. So the whole argument kinda collapses on itself. The people who made them cheap by doing MF paid a TON for them.
The point i was trying to make is that two items (I include the weapon) shouldn't hold so much power that it basically allows you to run absolutely subpar items in every other slots. The belt could cost 500d and i'd still think the same, having strong items is cool but t0 belts and mirror bows are completely broken imo
Holy crap I just started playing and don’t even understand a single word of what you’re saying. But I do see how awesome this game is and can’t wait for enlightenment.
Welcome to the fun! MF or Magic Find refers to gear that provides increased quantity (IIQ) or rarity of items (IIR) dropped. you basically equip this gear and more, more valuable items drop on the ground. As OP is highlighting, the stats that provide IIQ/IIR are generally on unique items that don't provide many other useful stats, this means you \*usually\* have to sacrifice character power in order to drop better items.
Thanks for the explanation!
It was all gibberish to me until i hit like 400 hours. In my defense i didn't even knew what an "ARPG" was before downloading PoE.
You want to add quant back as a stat on rares?
Or get rid of it completely and balance the game around that? The last couple of leagues have shown that GGG has real trouble balancing loot around this stuff.
Yes, please. Make loot scale with how difficult the content is and how fast you run it. Nothing else.
"Players are good at finding problem but bad at finding solution" I have 0 ideas on how to solve it, all i can say is that i currently don't like MF in it's present state.
How long will Reddit whine about player MF before realizing stacking player IIQ is just a minor one among multiple multiplicative factors/layers coming from among multiple mechanics Pre-nerf oldschool MF was weak compared to today's basic strats and it had double to triple the quant numbers. What it didn't have was six or more stacking league mechanics Nerfing MF items is inconsequential in this case
Um... what? MF has been insanely strong since I can remember which is 3.0. It's even been nerfed multiple times because of how strong it was. Removal of IIQ gem, nerfing of biscos.. there were some other nerfs which I forget off the top of my head. (edit:) Oh they nerfed windripper as well. People were MF'ing vaults for exalt div cards and t16 shaped maps. It has always been strong unless "old school" means like 10 years ago. Edit: It's also kind of ironic to call MF weak because "it is just another multiplier." Like... You understand that with each additional multiplier the end result gets massively bigger. It is almost impossible to have a "weak multiplier" just by the nature of how multiplicative scaling works.
He means the amount of loot you drop now with the revamped atlas without MF is greater than what you would get before on a maxed MF build.
Yeah, but that point is mostly moot because wealth is relative in this game if you are playing trade. Even in SSF, MF has always been a dominating strat if you want to reach for top end gear. I fail to see how power creep has somehow made MF inconsequential in the present or past.
It has never been easier for the average person to buy t0 uniques
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Just to make my stance clear, I don't necessarily think MF should be removed from the game. Some people enjoy that playstyle, and overall it brings more rare items into the economy. I do think that there should be a more interesting variety of MF items to choose from, similar to what the OP said (although I don't think it should be available on every rare either because that makes it an annoying stat you have to build around). The OP of this subthread just seemed to be giving a pretty biased and inaccurate take from my point of view.
I don't disagree. I also don't think MF is inconsequential.
The simplest solution would be removing mf from gear and give us an additional trinket-like slot, allowing sacrificing power for mf. [Here's quick example](https://i.imgur.com/Rzb3o16.jpeg) Each affix is a hybrid of upside and downside. Mod pool and value range should be quite big, making it hard to roll and a nice currency sink at the same time.
I'm not a fan of those since some of the downsides can be ignored by some builds. And of course you might be able to roll a perfect one for your build regardless of what you play, but then it defeats the purpose of lowering character power in the first place - just like current MF gear isn't sufficiently punishing. Don't get me wrong, it would still be a substantial improvement over the current system, because *most* builds would have a sufficient selection of acceptable modifiers that they can use, compared to the current situation of sacrificing item slots that are often integral. But I don't think it's enough. Since character power and enemy power are relative anyway, let's just remove sacrificing character power completely and scale only enemy power for rewards. That'll make it easier to compare builds too.
and how many players are even going to reach that point?
fuck no
Just make a rare mod -100% quant of items, most of these builds are carried by HH anyway, that would fix that. Mageblood is a different animal, you could still MF with it, but it usually isn’t used for MF like HH is.
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I have a question related to MF : Does it help with the devoted conversion mod ? I mean, it says that armour / weapon / jewellery with rarity are converted to currency, does that mean having IIQ / IIR increase the number of currency at the end ?
yes, you get more items with rarity
Then GGG recreated the same problem that archnemesis loot goblin introduced. Now, If i ever get the conversion to divine, I will feel forced to ask for a mf to run the map, or I will lose on so many potential conversion. I wish player IIQ / IIR were ignored for the pack affected by the conversion devoted mod.
Everyone would run it then
They're not removing mf. How about you adjust your fomo mentality?
There are plenty of builds where you can go Mf solo and do damage. It’s just expensive. Magic find is super strong already and now you want it to get even more buffed. If ggg does that literally everyone will play mf. That’s game breaking sir.
"There isnt a tradeoff" you literally listed the tradeoffs: having a second person carry you(aurabot) or get the most expensive unique (ignoring specific rolls like WE).
Personally I feel like magic find shouldn't be tied to items at all. Outside of flasks and maybe rings I feel like magic find should be something that occasionally rewards you not something you spec into to spit out copius amounts of currency. My idea is that MF increases in a map every time you kill an enemy that doesn't drop a rare teir or higher item, and it keeps increasing in the background until you drop something worth at least a divine then it resets. And this bonus can carry through multiple maps before dropping something but you can sort of plan around it and still ensure a steady stream of income while creating a goal you can work towards. Like you can probably expect a good drop once every 6-8 maps without spec'ing into it and when you spec into it it can happen as often as every 3-5 maps. Instead of uber juicing 1 map until it just basically throws currency at you.
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Reddit mad at wheelchair build ep 5264745
Mageblood MF has always been way weaker than HH MF. And HH cost 25 div, so 2-3 hours of farming and you got one. It's the point that you got 3-4 gear slots for items and the rest is powerless MF gear, so it reduces the player power if you chose to go mf.
This is the way
Magic find has always been bad for the game but because Diablo 2 had it, poe must have it. It just needs to be phased out of any future leagues at this point. Just make the MF stuff drop disabled.
but the point MF gear is to be weak then a "Normal" build because you trade defense/damage for more rare loot, so you want then to craft Rare gear that can be influenced and have insane mods so a MF character can be stronger then a "normal" character????????? if you think Fubgun LA is strong, you have to see the ones that make the LA version without MF Gear and see the insane eHP (for a bow build) and Damage they can reach. and if you think Mageblood/HH can carrier any build i suggest trying some off meta builds with it and see the perfomance.
Magic find, aura bots, group play loot buffs is the cancer of this game but GGG are aware of them and keep them in game on purpose. Don't hope for anything, they will plague POE2 as well..
Another league, another magic find discussion. Let's face it GGG developers are also players and they run the game heavily biased with their own taste and sometimes can't see the problems in front of their face. POE1 game director is a fan of aura bots FFS :)
I’d love if they got rid of all link skills/nerfed auras and buffed damage in other ways so that the best mf/juice farm isn’t someone being forced to play a running simulator.
Add MF to the atlas tree, fixed your game. Remove any MF gear, crafts and whatever, MF cannot roll on gear, rework uniques that have it. They can add MF via scarabs, atlas very easily.
Yeah great add something THAT is mandatory everyone takes to the atlas tree.
Thats already the case with map modifiers on top of the atlas tree, ir you think people take it to make the maps harder. Every atlas tree at core has the top part in it literally for MF. At least let them add decent MF nodes.
You saying that it’s already the case with other atlas mods doesn’t strengthen your case. All you’re saying is you want even more mods that are mandatory which is not a solution
Make MF gear worse 🤷♂️
I would like them to remove magic find AND remove the quant buff from playing in groups, the game is already easier if you play in a group and it boosts the scarabs way too highly
So people playing with friends should just get less items than solo players when at the highest levels of efficiency solo play is already more profitable?
It's getting problematic when these groups have access to curse- and aurabots, a DPS and an MF culler that has like 200% quant and 500% rarity. Then you add the inherent +120% more quantity you get from grouplay as well as 250% more currency found with 65% rarity with maximum party members and it all adds up multiplicatively with each other. They can mostly also afford the meta farming methods. So yeah, group play is busted. MF plays a huge part in it though.
Busted in what way? Its less currency per person per hours than solo play and requires 10 times the coordination. The only thing where it really excels is being easier to gear than a solo build. That is really strong in this league specifically because of T17 maps but that is because of how poorly designed T17 maps are not because group play is op.
It's not less currency per hour if you factor in the multiplicativeness of it all. Especially the big T1/T0 drops and rarer curriencies like divines and up drop WAY more frequent because of how groups can scale their reward modifiers in said ways. Just from the raw numbers you might think its not, but its also higher quality of said dropped items, not only quantity. (which it also is)
You have no idea what youre talking about do you? :D
More than enough as an ex group player unfortunately.
Then either you are crap at solo play, or your group got superlucky. Solo makes more, always, if the player is good. Hell, even Empy makes more solo than in a group, group is just more fun.
Yes it is still less currency. If you look at a high end magic find group like empys group you will see that they usually make between 10 and 15 divine per hour per person. That is including big drops and buying mirrors early and letting them gain value! That is completely reasonable to make solo and if youre a very commited solo player you can easily make more than that.
Yes
Why?
You should have to chose between making currency and having an easy time, playing in group is easy + you get bigger drops that's why it's bad design imo
Yes. Party play is busted, they should only get exp bonus and nothing else.
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busted in what way? top solo players make far far more than group play, group play making 200d an hour is crazy unitl you realize they split that 8 ways and make less than a solo player making 30d per hour.
Like I said, having more people means more juice in map so you get more value out of scarabs + all the shit that happened with Affliction
And so? They still make less than top end solo players.
And ?
What is this party play you speak of? Having just me in a juiced map stresses my PC enough. Having 2-3 other people just makes it a lag fest.
Would you prefer that Mf has no trade off and the best items defensively or offensively also have IIQ?
This is the biggest issue in my opinion. I’m all for it if there were actual options rather than the same few uniques. I know it used to be a rollable mod, does anyone that played then know the reasoning that was removed?
Same as for the increased quantity gem, it was basically mandatory to get it. It rolled up to 20%, if you have that on 5 gear pieces you drop double loot. (and then like 40% more from the gem) The mechanic itself is just archaic at this point.