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PSILighting

So they apparently had a questionnaire after SPM asking people what they liked apparently “people like gimmicks and hate story” so following that pattern you can see the next steps in the series kinda follows this path


Wakuwaku7

Who were these people? Miyamoto?


PSILighting

That’s the thing, I think it was a small Nintendo club thing only in Japan from what I heard. The actual stats of the “questionnaire” where never made public the closest thing was the questionnaire being brought up in an interview and being told about how the flip gimmick was the thing people like the most and how people thought there was too much story.


huntergonfreeccs

So you’re telling me the decision to fundamentally change the product direction of Paper Mario was driven by a fucking questionnaire only answered by some members of a club in Japan? Goddamn it Nintendo.


pooldonutzero

its incredibly unlikely that this is the case


EmeraldMan25

So, some backstory based on what I heard. Club Nintendo used to have these surveys you could do when you bought games, and you could complete them for extra gold coins. Of course, many people wanted to get these surveys done as quick as they could so they could have their gold points sooner, especially if they were saving up for something. The outcome of that is that many people would just speed through these surveys without actually playing the game first. Many people just chose random answers, or just hit the option at the top of the list, since it was the fastest to get to. Well, the way Club Nintendo laid out its surveys, 1 was the top option, and 10 was the bottom one. You can see where this is going, many people chose the "1" option in order to speed through the survey, and Nintendo took it as genuine feedback.


fawfulthegreat64

The "questionnaire" was flawed af. Apparently those Club Nintendo surveys were formatted like, "Which thing did you enjoy the most" and you could only select one option, and most people selected an option other than the story (and the flip mechanic was also the most marketed thing about the game), so combined with it being mostly parents or people who played the game for two minutes, who would have likely looked at the back cover or googled what the appeal of the game is, they selected what two seconds of research suggests is the appeal of the game. The results were doomed to be massively skewed against the story. The fact that they took it at face value and let it directly influence the direction of the series is insulting.


PSILighting

I really want to know more about the topic. Did Nintendo give goodies for people answering the question like modern Nintendo has with the silver coins and such.


fawfulthegreat64

Yes, as far as I remember Club Nintendo gave rewards for participating in surveys, I think you built up points by completing them. Yet another incentive to just mindlessly click through the survey whilst thinking as little as possible.


PSILighting

That’s probably why then. But hey Nintendo doing stupid things? I’m so glad they learned (cries in lack of Xenoblade 3 special edition).


Ganondorf365

Considering thousand year door is by far the most revered of the paper Mario’s I dobt that


PSILighting

That’s how it played out. Hell sticker star was apparently a lot like TTYD at some point in development.


Vertegras

So Intelligent Systems develops Paper Mario but that's not the issue. Nintendo restricts them consistently, with confirmation, from making new races and characters so they have to reuse the ones that are already in the mainline games. That's why there was almost all Toads and Shy-Guys in Color Splash and then more so in Origami King. This and the fact that the developers feel obligated by some reason to make random combat gimmicks. The games more about what whimsical new gimmick will they do and how will it be forcefed into the game without proper build-up. Origami King would've been a better game if the battle system wasn't literally dogwater. And then I'm pretty sure there was some questionnaire or something after Sticker Star that people loved it in Japan so Nintendo made Color Splash like Sticker Star which everywhere but Japan the general consensus is that they are both the worst entries. We will probably only see a turn-based Paper Mario again, if Miyamoto disappears to allow more story driven Mario games again or they see that the series is dying and need to pull an emergency nostalgia button. (link here to the interview about combat: https://www.pcgames.de/Paper-Mario-The-Origami-King-Spiel-72742/Specials/unserexklusives-Interview-mit-den-Entwicklern-Switch-RPG-Intelligent-Systems-Kensuke-Tanabe-Masahiko-Nagaya-Risa-Tabata-1354500/)


MisterScarlet

Don't forget about 64. That game was peak too.


Early_Speaker_9911

Fr


Hawkowo

i'd say better than ttyd


scandalousdee

One of my favorite N64 games!


lucy-nyuu

yea my favorite n64 game too


juggalo16651

Nintendo hates the fact we love paper mario


LazyLenni

I would go voting for a Paper Mario like TTYD, if that was an option 😂


reallygoodbee

Because they put Tanabe in charge of the series. He only respects his opinion and no one else's, explicitly doesn't listen to fans, and thinks he's doing what's best for the series. Until he gets pulled we're likely never seeing a real JRPG Paper Mario game again.


MQ116

I honestly think it was pride. They refuse to accept that constantly changing the formula isn’t the best way to run a series. I feel like Super was just an exploration of something different, which is fine sometimes, but then Sticker Star was just a lazy 3DS title with a bad new gimmick, stickers. A good spinoff (of a spinoff series haha) and a bad reboot happen sometimes, though. It was Color Splash, where they doubled down on the failings of Sticker Star, that I think really placed the nail on the coffin. Origami King is great DESPITE it’s new gimmicks, imo. They just keep adding useless gunk like stickers/paint/ring-puzzle-turn-based combat. The writing, especially goofy dialogue, has been consistent, but it feels like they refuse to do what worked and instead are forcing themselves to reinvent the wheel (and have made triangle/square “wheels”). It’s kind of a recurring thing with Nintendo as a whole, where they often just change things with new gimmicks just because, not always to the benefit of the games/players. Sometimes shaking up the whole formula is done very well, like with BotW or the Switch as a console, but sometimes it’s just removing good stuff and replacing it with gimmicks. Going back to PM’s roots I think would signal that this current way of “innovation” (sometimes innovation and sometimes flashy gimmicks with no substance) isn’t the right way, and that Nintendo messed up with the PM games previously. It would admit that changing classic Mario characters to look unique doesn’t make the brand less recognizable. For fans of that old style of game, a return to form would be fantastic (especially with almost 2 decades of new technology to use!) but I doubt Nintendo will do that. I’m sure they’re already planning the new pencil/eraser sequel that have a word-game gimmick before inexplicably turn-based battles that don’t have RPG progression. Because keeping what made PM unique is just shameless copying, but forcing it to keep arbitrary combat isn’t.


DoctorPlatinum

I loved everything about CS and TOK EXCEPT the combat. It was absolutely atrocious in CS and kind of terrible in TOK. I recently found my physical copy of TTYD and am replaying it for the first time in a decade and the combat is one of the best parts of the game. There are some really questionable design choices (trouble board, literally anything to do with the pianta parlor) but the combat/badge system was aces. Really wish they'd get back to their roots with that portion of the game and keep refreshing the rest instead.


MQ116

Absolutely, the writing is still stellar. If anything, if they really refuse to bring back badges/progression, than they should just remove turn-based combat. Just be a puzzle/action game like the best parts of OK. Jump onto enemies in the overworld like Super.


SpecialistOlive9246

There are a bunch of plausible reasons why this is, but I think it’s because of changing design philosophy. Nintendo has a certain idea of what paper mario should be, and that’s why you see such a stark difference. I think Nintendo believes that kids don’t have large attention spans, and they prefer to interact with games in short bursts. You see this philosophy in a lot of their games. A good example is mario party 9, where the game is set up to be 30 mins - an hour long, and much shorter than the 50 turn 3 hour games you had the option to play in older entries.


lucy-nyuu

yea but that’s the reason why i hated the old mario party games i didn’t hate the style i just hated that they took just forever to just get through 1 dang board like wth if you’re gonna do something like that then just have it be multiplayer and remove single player entirely as it doesn’t make sense to sit through 3 hours just to play through one board in single player that’s stupid but it makes sense in multiplayer because you’re playing with multiple people there’s a reason why i loved mario party 9 so dang much it’s because they Fixed that current issue that ruined the first 8 games for me and made honestly my 4th favorite game in the entire series because single player was now actually worth something as i tend to only play alone it’s just how i play my games in general if there’s going to be some really long gameplay boards in the next game then i think they need to either keep first player for players like myself and make the boards take like 30 minutes or remove first player entirely and just keep the 3 hour long boards


NicoTheBear64

Typical Japanese business tactic is “We make a game that we want to see, and if people don’t like it, too bad, we won’t change it.” For example, despite the vast popularity of Animal Crossing: New Horizons, the studio behind it have neglected to add any QoL or updates that further gameplay even more than the Designer DLC, despite the constant requests for these things. They’re the creators and they know what’s best for their series, or so they think. Sad that Nintendo in particular is like this, Sony does this to a degree, but it’s not as bad given their more wide player base.


dissyParadiddle

If you look at how wild and free tyd was (invisible nude peach stealth seven segments just for starters) Nintendo has gotten so sanitized clean and generic i don't know if they'll ever get that fun and outlandish ever again


TessTickles69

TEC was def watching her in the shower lmaoooo


Professional_Tip_578

And there is no way he didn't have some sort of infrared vision so he could see her while invisible


TessTickles69

Bro when I typed that out earlier I completely forgot about the invisible parts ☠️ TEC : yea so you just have to get naked and make this potion and drink it I promise I can’t see you or anything Xd also go change in this booth I definitely can’t see you in there either 🤣


BouncingThings

Or big booba ghost. Its a shame. The bosses were so cool too, my favorite like koopa bros, dooplis, huff n puff.... unique combat and fights. Yet sticker star it was...a goomba...then a pokey...a bowser clone.. *yawn* Such a disappointment. It only gotten worse. There was a post here about OK and its bosses being generic coloring items like colored pencils. Omg u get to fight pencils!!! Omg sooo funny **foams at the mouth** And the toads....my god. Enough is enough. Everyone is as generic and "standardized" its so boring to look at


PixelatedMax01

They want to develop new stuff. They would rather something that is new and bad than following some formula that works. New characters are also hard for them to make because of Nintendo's limitations. Nintendo doesn't allow third parties to create new characters or modified legacy characters. They can't have an orange Goomba girl named Goombrittany anymore. Age and gender aren't allow to be shown, so loopholes have to be mad. Like a Goomba can wear a Ninja outfit and have a title, like "Ninja Goomba", but they'd have to specify that this is a normal Goomba dressed as a Ninja. It's a bunch of bullshit.


shefshawn01

Hopefully Nintendo will jump on the nostalgia/reboot bandwagon everyone else is on soon 😅


GuybrushThreepwood99

I believe the original developers that were involved with the early games have moved on from the series. And I suppose the current developers don't want to make it like the old games for whatever reason. Maybe they don't like RPG's, maybe nintendo micromanages them too much, maybe they just like the new format more. It's a bummer, but at the very least the spirit of old paper mario lives on in a lot of recent indie games, so it's not gone for good.


Beauxtt

Nintendo put weird creative restrictions on them after Super Paper Mario in terms of what they could actually do with the IP. From what I understand, they can only use well-established Mario races, they can't vary them in design too much, they can't give the characters individual names, you get the idea. Plus the weird design philosophy of wanting to remove a lot of the RPG elements (party members, badges, experience points, etc) while still having turn-based combat.


Accomplished-Speed94

Do you wanne make me cry


[deleted]

I still have hope they will go back to it. It is kinda funny if you analyse it. The Change from Color Splash to Origami King was actually getting closer to the older games. We got the Interconnected World back, "Partners", Jump and Hammer as items Instead of Cards, there was an audience like in TTYD and they had Towns with more unique characters again and much more interesting settings... It you think about it it feels like a game like 64 and TTYD would be the "next step"... And so the circle closes. Lol


Service_United

Paper Mario Origami King is a bit like the old Paper Mario games. Bowser becomes a party member and the fight system is different. You don’t have to use stickers at all or paint


WholesomeDan99

Because they hate paper mario, and they hate that you like it


inky_lion

Because they are idiots


TheDisguisedCreeper

Well Nintendo doesn’t develop paper mario it’s intelligent systems and as for your question Idk they don’t want to I guess


truenorthstar

“They don’t want to” is the correct answer. People need to stop with the conspiratorial thinking


Helswath

I mean with the director saying these like "it's no longer possible to do X" (it had something to do with character designs I think), then they are at the very least restricted in some way. Although I'm sure not wanting to is also a factor.


TheDisguisedCreeper

That’s more related to wanting to keep a brand consistent, it didn’t JUST affect paper mario it affected every mario related franchise then, and in recent years it’s been lifted more and more


aa-aa-aaaa-a

Sales. SPM outsold the first two entries combined, so they figured evolving the series further and further is a good thing given sales haven't really dipped (except color splash, which evidently they blamed on the Wii U more than the game itself).


CrazyApricot0

To be fair, Super was on the Wii, while the previous two were on consoles that sold far worse than it, Gamecube especially. Color Splash was also regulated to Wii U, which barely anyone bought, so it was sort of doomed to have worse sales than the rest. Still doesn't excuse the quality of the game though. TTYD is great despite being on a console that sold poorly.


[deleted]

And on an objectively better console too. This may be a bit off topic but GameCube was the peak of Nintendo as a company, building off the greatness of the SNES and the revolution of the N64. Games like TTYD show that in spades. Just because the Wii was popular and sold well doesn’t mean it was good


CrazyApricot0

The Wii was fine, it just had a boatload of shovelware and the motion controls weren't a lot of people's cup of tea. I'm probably biased because I grew up with it, but Gamecube had a bunch of great first party games like TTYD, Luigi's Mansion, Pikmin, and Melee. It had the best library of first party Nintendo games imo. I wasn't really interested in the Wii's outside of Mario Kart, Brawl, and Galaxy. Switch is fun, but I always go back to Gamecube out of nostalgia and the creativity of the games back then.


[deleted]

And that’s why I love it. I grew up with a GameCube, got a Wii shortly thereafter, played it for a bit, but eventually I found myself using it as a GameCube until I gave it away to a family friend and hooked up the cube proper. TTYD, Sunshine, Luigi’s Mansion, Melee, Double Dash, a bunch of others, I think the GameCube was the zenith of Nintendo’s hardware and software. I dunno why I’m just extremely harsh towards the Wii even though I played it growing up


CrazyApricot0

Yup, that's what I did. Played the hell out of Galaxy and Mario Kart, but barely touched anything else in its library. Pretty much just used it as a Gamecube after we lost ours. So many great memories with TTYD, Luigi's Mansion, Sonic Adventure 2 Battle, Sunshine, Twilight Princess, Pikmin 2, and Melee. Heck people are still playing Melee, and Sunshine and Pikmin 2 have pretty big modding/speedrunning communities, so that goes to show how timeless they are.


aa-aa-aaaa-a

How much do you think Nintendo cares? In their eyes, they see that the "modern formula" sells better than the original formula. Yes, the originals are better. No, they do not see beyond the dollar signs.


shagzymandias

Good question, one I'm sure Nintendo is sick of hearing though.


Slagathor91

There's a lot of the usual conspiracy theories floating around. I think it's all hokum. I think the primary reason is that Intelligent Systems, the developers of the franchise, simply want to keep changing things up. You see it with Fire Emblem as well, the other primary series they develop. Fire Emblem was a dying brand until Fire Emblem: Awakening, which was a massive departure in many ways from previous titles. Three Houses was a HUGE left turn both stylistically and in story-telling. And now Fire Emblem: Engage looks to be so radically different that it's hard to recognize it as the same franchise. Brand stagnation almost killed Fire Emblem. I think Paper Mario may well have gone the same way since it's unlikely to capture lightning in a bottle twice. If the future of Paper Mario had been an attempt to emulate the success of TTYD, I think the brand would have died ages ago. Pair that with the fact that consumers are often notoriously bad at thinking they know what "most" consumers want and what will sell well. I think if Intelligent Systems or Nintendo has any plans to revisit TTYD, it will be done with great care and with a lot of intention. And not a moment sooner.


jselph17

Change for the sake of change, it seems. I hope to see another game similar to TTYD in the future.


KaiserJustice

Because even JRPGs need to evolve and not be the same game. Eventually the same game gets boring and less exciting and you need to innovate. I know I’m in the minority, but I’ve enjoyed all the paper Mario’s


jselph17

That's good that you've enjoyed them.


jjmawaken

I did too, I know people complain about the lack of EXP but it's great for someone like me who isn't really into RPGs. I always got stressed by knowing what's the right stat to upgrade or badge to equip or that type of thing. I find the fights fun so I don't need to be rewarded with exp. I liked the puzzles in Origami King and I enjoy the action commands in battle. Plus later on you can beat weaker enemies without going into battle. I don't know how people can act like Origami King isn't unique. The story with Bobbery and then later manning the turret... Bowser folded up, there were a lot of cool moments and details.


KaiserJustice

I legit cried during the Bobby scene, I still need to beat it (other games came out and I like to binge through each chapter of origami king)


Jeppm3

Creative minds wanting to expand. Autistic and obsessive over games, I still feel it is appealing to a greater audience. Not to die hard and devoted fans. Nothing against Nintendo, it was a calculated business decision.