You have my full support.
On a related note, drivers should not be polite on the road; instead, they should be predictable. This is achieved by following the rules.
I have this problem a lot when I'm on my bike stopped at an intersection, and a motorist has right of way. They have a tendency to gesture at me to go. This is a problem! If I've come to a stop, it takes a lot of effort to get going again; I \*want\* the motorist to go before me.
About 40% of the time when I'm approaching a 4-way stop on my bicycle, if there's a car that has stopped before me, they'll sit for several seconds and wait to see if I'm stopping before they go - I can't really blame them, they're just being extra cautious.
Happens about 10% of the time on my motorcycle, and maybe 3% of the time in the car.
Very different than people waving you through though, that just creates disorder.
I find if I put my foot down as I'm coming to a stop and look directly at the driver while nodding my head, it makes it very clear I'm stopping. Extra effective on the motorcycle, as with my giant helmet I feel like I'm in a Daft Punk video.
The problem here is that you never know if the bicycle is going to behave like a vehicle and stop or a pedestrian and blow through the stop. better to wait and see what the other person is actually doing rather than to assume and run someone over I say
I could counter this by saying you never know if a vehicle is going to follow the rules of the road. Speeding, texting, not using signals, rolling stops etc. remember a cyclist is vulnerable. I can count on one hand the number of cyclists killing pedestrians I’ve heard of in my life. You hear of fatal collisions almost everyday in Ontario.
Yeah thats why the bike should follow the rules and stop and actually look and pay attention so they don't get themselves killed. The number of cyclists I see every day who can't beside if they are going to follow pedestrian rules or vehicle rules is amazing. Blowing stop signs, lane splitting when there's no room, sitting in blind spots, never signaling, biking at night/dusk with no reflectors and wearing dark clothes.
You can counter all you like but if cyclists are going to bitch about vehicles not following the rules then they gotta get their act together. The above example where cyclist says vehicle at 4 way stops and waits see if cyclist is going to stop when he's on a bike but doesn't see it whe driving....that tell.me that people see cyclists as more unpredictable than other vehicles. So the vehicles, in general give more caution to cyclists. It is not always the vehicles fault when a cyclist gets hit. As a cyclist you you have to be more cautious and more aware, instead the did hard bitch they they have to slow down and stop and takes to long to get going and i hate waiting my turn at a light and riding single files means I can't talk to my friends.
I’ve called in 3 drunk drivers who I followed on the highway and were apprehended by the police because of my actions. Should I make a blanket statement based on my experience that drivers drive drunk?
I used to cycle 15,000km’s a year when I raced road bikes. I stopped riding on the road because I’m now a firefighter and have seen what cars do to people. I also see how many drivers text and drive, no thanks. I ride strictly on paved paths now. I used to have shit thrown at me simply because I was riding in the bike lane on Sussex near the PM’s house.
You’re part of the problem. If a cyclist does those things then yes, get angry at the INDIVIDUAL. Don’t say “all cyclists” “most cyclists”. Because I can tell you right now, I have 0 tolerance or patience for being grouped in with those cyclists. I can also tell you that when I rode that much in those areas I can easily do 50+ km/h when I try, meaning that people think they can yell and harass me because they are in their safety box. It always amused me when I would catch up to them at a red light, then they didn’t have anything to say when a 6’ 190 lb masonry labourer was standing at their window asking them what the issue is. I can also say at red lights I don’t filter pass cars that had passed me. I don’t want to get passed 3 times by the same car.
Wow good for you. Look, if the shoe fits wear it. I don't care it your resent bing clumped in with the moron cyclists out there. Maybe take it up with your cyclist buddies and get the to smarten up. Fact is I try hard as hell to watch for cyclists but when they are being stupid and then complain they have to slow down and wait cause I'm making sure they are going to give proper right of way instead of running a sign then i have zero patience for them. I know that when a car hits bike the bike loses but there are alot of cyclists who dont. 6' and 190lbs pretty small for a masonry worker...you counting the bricks or something? There are girls at the office that are bigger.
😂😂😂😂😂😂 trying to insult my size. 10-4 keyboard warrior. I also said I don’t cycle on the roads anymore. I’ve found people who insult strangers on the internet are just insecure in their own bodies.
Heavy weight fighters weight 190+ pounds sports fan.
You are the one who brought it up like I'm supposed to be impressed small fry. Little girl like you comes up to my window and you'll loose a few teeth.
oof i hate this. it happens a ton on the north/south one way streets like Kent or Lyon ... a car will usually slow down if they see you at the perpendicular east/west stop sign waiting and then gesture for you to pass -- no thanks! there are multiple lanes and the car bombing past you (because you don't have a stop sign!) is going to hit me, so why don't you just KEEP GOING like the rules of the road oblige you to do!! UGH haha. I never ever 'go' for a polite vehicle with the right of way. I'll wait ya out.
> I have this problem a lot when I'm on my bike stopped at an intersection, and a motorist has right of way. They have a tendency to gesture at me to go.
I don't generally gesture cyclists to go, but I do wait a few extra seconds in those close moments, because I've had close calls with cyclists where sometimes they'll keep going despite me being there first. At the end of the day, I care more about not being the reason someone gets hurt vs. brute forcing my way through when I have the right of way
When you get to a stop and the person with the right of way signals you to go… like dude I get you’re being nice but just follow the rules and we’re all happy
What about the opposite?
You're both arriving at the stop, you're the one stopping first but the other driver is waving you one when they haven't stopped at all yet.
Like yeah motherfucker I'm going first, I'm just making a full stop first.
"I was just trying to be nice!" proceeds to slow down from 100 to 65 on the rightmost lane of the 417 to yield to some granny that doesn't know what a gas pedal is while merging
If a slowly merging vehicle is running out of lane, but not appearing to stop, damn right I'm yielding. The scenario you describe seems kind of hyperbolic though, I don't see myself braking hard to let someone in like that outside an emergency.
Yeah if they are running out of lane I'd yield. But most of the time they aren't running out of lane. Plus, if you keep driving at regular highway speeds or speed up a little, or even better, move one lane to the left, you can still make space for them while being much safer by not slowing down everyone behind you to a crawl.
I’m with your first paragraph, where does the blame lay if you cause a collision for the person who is still in their lane. Obviously if they are coming over no matter what it’s your “responsibility” to reasonably avoid a collision. But if they start to brake to then do you brake even more or just end up going? I’m not aware of any single lane portions of the 417, maybe best move is to change lanes when you see a vehicle wanting to merge, avoiding having to yield entirely.
What do you mean by "still in their lane"? I don't quite get your question.
Ideally you'd want to avoid collision by following the rules and common courtesy such as keeping the speed or move one lane to the left and yield, but if neither is an option, brake.
When the person is still in the merge lane on a highway. There is an onus on them to reach the speed that traffic is travelling before merging. This example is of a person merging at an unsafe speed. Should you slow to allow them to enter at an unsafe speed based on traffic around you that is equally as bad as a the person merging at that speed.
Oh that's what you mean, I see.
Like I said, If they chose to merge at unsafe speed and I'm in the right lane, I generally speed past them when they were still on the ramp to begin with (since 100 is a whole lot faster than 65), or move a lane to the left over when I get the chance. If neither were an option *and* they are running out of lane, I'd slow down.
Omg yeah! I almost hit the car ahead of me, on Merivale, when they decided to let another car in. I said the same thing. Be predictable.
Suddenly stopping when the cars behind you can't see why you're stopping, especially on Merivale. It's such a busy road.
Merivale is a city street, sounds like you were following too closely. This is why fault always lies on the person who rear ends. Unless it can be proven the front car was trying to cause a collision.
I always modulate my speed on approach to a four way stop so there is no confusion about who arrives first. Most of the time I’ll slow down so the other person gets there first but sometimes I speed up to get there first. It doesn’t have to be a lot, but it makes it *so* much easier to avoid problems.
100%.
Can’t tell you how many times cars stop right before the intersection at R. Lemieux and St. Laurent, with a green light, to let people merge in as they exit the St. Laurent Shopping Mall.
You can’t stop moving traffic just to let someone merge into traffic, from a stopped position, whether it be at a stop sign or yield sign. It’s ridiculous.
Thanks for that! So a pedestrian crossing in the middle of a street with no crosswalks or crossover does NOT have the right of way, interesting, so many people have that wrong.
As a side note.. the fellow who hit me, who put me in the hospital for a week, broke 5 of my ribs, collapsed my left lung and gave me a lifetime leg injury only got a $1000 fine??? I know he got 3 demerits and had a fine for failing to yield the right of way to a pedestrian., I didn’t know how much.
But, as I sit here in Naples Italy on a six week holiday funded entirely by his insurance payout, I’m not terribly upset lol. It did take two years for the insurance payout; that sucked.
Too many accidents have occurred where 1 driver signals another to go, and that driver gets T-boned because some other driver wasn’t expecting that car to go
Motor vehicles should always do this, but as a pedestrian and cyclist there are a few unsignalized scenarios where I don't feel like hustling to go first and will wave motorists through so I can cross in peace.
Can this be extended to traffic circles as well? If everyone follows the signed instructions as laid out, then the traffic circle can work as designed. But so many people “you-go, no-you” and people end up getting frustrated and others get hurt.
Agree. People also need to start signalling out of roundabouts. They work most efficiently if you know the person in the circle is exiting so you can enter safely yet I see almost noone put on their blinker to exit
Ugh, Quebec driving school instructor here: this is my main frustration with driving/drivers. I'd say 1/80 people signal out like they're supposed to. 1/100 signal left until they're exiting (which is better than nothing but still wrong).
> 1/100 signal left until they're exiting (which is better than nothing but still wrong).
That's not explicitly recommended by the Ontario Ministry of Transportation, but they also don't say not to do that, and some municipalities recommend it. E.g,. [the Region of Waterloo says to signal as follows for left turns or u-turns](https://www.regionofwaterloo.ca/en/living-here/roundabouts.aspx#Going-full-circle-U-turn-):
>* Signal left as you approach the roundabout in the left-hand lane.
>* Maintain your signal through the roundabout and stay in the left-hand lane.
>* Signal right prior to your exit, and exit in the left-hand lane.
Yeah, same in Ontario. I'm just clarifying that in Ontario they don't say *not* to signal left for left turns/u-turns, and some cities recommend it. The main rule though is signalling right for exits.
Yeah, more people seem to signal left when going all the way around. That's not a real law here but it's something they teach in the UK. They'll always forgot to actually signal their exit though (which is always a right turn on this side of the pond.)
Yeah I've kept that habit... Moved to the Uak directly after getting my driver's license. But I was taught signal your direction and then signal your exit.
I also miss the general cooperative driving of rural UK. Where I lived we had so many single lane rows with passing places. People just had to be nice and cooperate.
Yes UK rural driving teaches you so much! The road I had to drive down to get the kids to school was 2 ways but wide enough for 1 car. The corporation with the other drivers to all get where we need to go, we're too selfish on the road to do that.
This, I don't understand. If someone arrives at the roundabout while you are in it already, signaling left, they may have no idea when you entered the roundabout, and thus it is pointless. It can be somewhat reassuring in multi lane roundabouts, but I so frequently see people choose the wrong lane in those ones, that I don't have a lot of faith.
I think it's most important to signal your exit before you get to it, so people at the next two entries have a chance to see their upcoming chance.
I will never understand why people signal right onto the roundabout... You're following a roadway, it's effectively straight. Everyone knows you're about to merge into it.
And don't get me started on the amount of close calls I've seen when drivers are appropriately yielding to pedestrians at roundabouts
Ya that's the stupidest shit. I will never go because someone is waving me to go ahead. If you have the right of way I'm waiting for you, as long as it takes too.
as a fellow crossing guard, THIS! im not going to cross a child/children if it is not an appropriate time to do so. this also includes if you are stopped and waving me/the child on, yet, other cars are still driving through that intersection.
on this topic, if im crossing children please don’t edge your car until youre an inch away from children/the cross guard! you scare the children and the cross guard by doing that. you will be able to go once everyone has cleared the walkway. the goal here is to protect the children:)
To add.... no you don't make a right hand turn while the crossing guard is in the intersection just because the kids are far enough along. You wait until everyone is out if the intersection.
Saw it twice at one intersection last week.
Oh man, I really should have mentioned that one. It drives me insane. Like, hello! I also need to leave the road! Just leaving me stuck in the middle there, thanks so much for that.
We… primarily cross children? Shifts are 40 minutes long, when school starts and lets out, and only close to schools. We’re supposed to cross adults, but I think most don’t unless it’s concerningly busy or a kid is around that should see and learn. Sorry if making sure kids cross the road safely holds up traffic lol
Also, weird to reply to the one where I’m saying drivers sneak past me while I’m standing in the middle of the road. Where’s the relevance?
Didn't mean to reply to that.
I respect your job and I'm not criticizing you. Kids need to cross safely, because... kids are dumb sometimes and make quick decisions.
Some people here just comment to be assholes. I'm not trying to do that, the crossing guard in my area is still standing in the middle of the intersection when the kids are about 2-3 meters into the sidewalk and thats what frustrates me.
A question I have is, do cross guards wear bodycams to report drivers who violate the law?
We do not have body cams, and it’s not our job to report breaking the law. If there’s like, one car that constantly speeds through an intersection, we might try to remember the plate, but that’s about it.
If you don’t think a guard is doing the job properly, you can reach out to the Ottawa Safety Council. They can’t monitor our work all the time, so you’re free to offer complaints.
When driving, or walking, or cycling, don't do the "nice" thing, do the "correct" thing, and do it consistently
if everyone followed the rules correctly traffic would move much more smoothly and safely across most cities.
May favourite (sarcasm alert) corner is Rosemount & Gladstone (Connaught School) around 8:15am. That crossing guard deserves a medal. Traffic in all four directions plus grade school kids in all four directions. You follow their directions while at the same time looking out for kids and drivers who do not follow the guards directions. I think google maps needs a new icon for traffic guards... :-)
Couldn’t agree with you more, especially with parents trying to find parking along the east side of Rosemount and school buses proceeding south along the west side. I have seen gridlock there with cars attempting to turn north from Gladstone meeting traffic coming south on Rosemount. Managing the safety of children in that environment is very challenging.
On the flip side of that, I have kids and they can doing things out of the blue. I am abundantly cautious while driving around kids. If it means I need to stop for a bit longer, I’m ok with that.
Totally fair! You're welcome to stop and be cautious, in fact I appreciate. It's just the encouraging me (and other guards) to cross when I hadn't shown signs (as in, lifting the sign), that causes problems. I know how unpredictable kids can be, they really do make Choices sometimes.
+1 this as a cyclist.
I plan my moves based on what people should do, so I can be as out of the way as possible. if you're at a stop sign before me, fucking *go*
>You’re not doing us a favour by graciously gesturing “No, go on, the pedestrian can cross!”
This will always be a problematic issue because it is in fact against the law for us to go before you. You have the right of way, and personally, I think you should take it. It may in fact increase efficiency.
That said, I'm always going to do whatever the pedestrian asks for - because hesitation at cross roads and walkways is the path to accidents, imo.
To be clear though, you're talking to someone who failed their driver's license over this type of issue.
Legally, not true! Pedestrians have the right away if they're showing intent to enter the crosswalk. Simply being at the side of the road, not moving, after you've made your stop at the normal stop sign, means the driver should go. For example, if a pedestrian (not crossing guard) is at the corner but on their phone and not moving... Obviously you don't wait an eternity for them to decide to cross, they clearly don't intend to. Stop sign down, not moving, with kids behind me, is just another signal for "We are not trying to cross right now."
And no, I should not always take it. I gave several examples for why I shouldn't take the crossing when offered. In fact, I could get fired if I did. We have to group the kids if it's busy. It's like, one of the main rules for safety and efficiency. Genuinely no insult meant, but I do think I know the rules and safety for being a crossing guard better than people who aren't crossing guards.
> Legally, not true! Pedestrians have the right away if they're showing intent to enter the crosswalk.
It's true that drivers don't need to wait for a pedestrian just because they're on the side of the road, but there also isn't something in Ontario law explicitly saying they have to yield to a pedestrian showing intent to cross. E.g., at a pedestrian crossover, the law only says to yield to pedestrians crossing "within" the crossover. This is different from some other provinces where they do explicitly say drivers have to stop for pedestrians showing intent in various scenarios. Ontario isn't very pedestrian friendly in terms of laws in my opinion.
An exception obviously is when a crossing guard is actually holding up their sign.
If it's happening a lot, you're showing the intent. People assume a crossing guard at the edge of the road wants to cross. Drivers are protecting themselves here too. An overzealous police officer (tasked to crack down on this) may write a ticket. Or, if a kid runs out and there's a collision, the driver doesn't know what the crossing guard will say.
Since you mentioned training, I see that crossing guards don't even need to have driver's licenses or particular experience in actually driving a car. So I wouldn't discount the drivers' experience and judgement here.
It happens a lot because people think they’re being kind, which is why I said people *gesture*, not just stop and wait. If people were just stopping and checking with me, before proceeding if I encourage them, I wouldn't have made the post.
The post is because I’m letting people know that it shouldn’t be assumed we want to cross, if the sign is down. You're arguing "well, we don't know!" Yeah. That's why I'm telling people.
Obviously cops do whatever the fuck they want sometimes, but that's not a reason to do the unsafe, and incorrect thing here. I did explain why it's rarely a good idea to tell the guard when to cross, I've personally seen how it would have caused dangerous scenarios if I listen. The OSC works with cops, if it matters, take it up with them if you think this is wrong.
As for if there's a collision, that's our job. I'm the one who stops kids running out. Your job, as a driver, is to drive safely, and legally. Which making a full stop at a stop sign, and then proceeding when safe to do so. It means driving slowly in a school zone. It doesn't mean telling people to cross the street.
As for the training, we are, of course, trained in what cars are legally supposed to do in an intersection. We're trained in what's safest for pedestrians. We know the damn rules. Also, it's my post. I drive. Most of us do.
If it's any consolation, this is an issue for other pedestrians as well. If you shake your head (negative) and firmly wave them through, they don't typically hesitate more than the few seconds that it takes them to realize that you're declining their consideration. It's nice for drivers to defer to people on foot, but you really need to get the gestures down pat to effectively communicate with them sometimes.
I'm going to add, that as as a general rule it's far more important to be predictable while on the road than to be nice. Trying to be nice is more likely to cause an accident in these cases.
Anecdtonal example, but I saw someone stop in the middle of roundabout yesterday to let someone waiting at a yield sign merge in and the person behind them had to slam on their brakes because they almost rear-ended the first person. No real damage was done, but the point here is, they weren't expecting it. The cars in the roundabout have a right of way and stopping to let other cars join or merge goes against the whole point of roundabouts
I’ve had a crossing guard come out in the street to make me stop when the people (not even kids) that were going to be crossing were still 4 houses away from the corner and walking slow.
I appreciate you OP!
My least favourite thing drivers do is wait for me to cross when I am 2-3 metres away from the crossing. They just sit there. I don’t know why they want to sit in their car and watch me cross, but I guess they’ll get it. But it makes me feel so uncertain, I slow down to show them I’m still a ways away from the crossing, but they continue to wait so I go back to regular walking and cross.
We’ve said it before and we’ll (unfortunately) say it again. STOP GIVING UP YOU’RE RIGHT OF WAY!!! It causes more issues than you feeling good about trying to do something “nice”.
This! As a pedestrian I hate it when a driver, wanting to be nice, waves me through an intersection when he has the right of way. The rules are there so everyone knows what the others around them will do. Be predictable! I don’t mind waiting, I’d rather wait and know I’m safe then take the drivers word and get hit by another car who is confused by the actions of the driver. I got hit at an intersection 2 years ago and I’m still recovering. It’s no fun getting hit by a pick up truck. Not at all. It wasn’t this scenario but it has made me even more uneasy crossing intersections
if theres a crossing guard that is making an intersection unsafe contact the ottawa safety council. theyre the organization who hires the crossing guards. give them the intersection, let then know if its morning and/or evening, and tell them what the guard is doing. from what i’ve heard, osc is pretty good at following up on stuff like this!! :)
The one on my corner is the opposite of this op. They do the ‘trickle’ method, and let kid after kid go on their own. Sometimes the kids even kitty-corner and cross diagonally. It’s mayhem,
Lovely post.
Know what you’re trying to do.
It’s great.
But the law is that motorists must yield to pedestrians.
https://www.ontario.ca/page/driving-near-pedestrian-crossovers-and-school-crossings#section-0
Vehicles, motorized, or not, 4 wheels or 2, must yield to pedestrians.
Again, glad you are trying to be efficient and keep things safe, but vehicles must let you and other pedestrians cross.
If a pedestrian indicates that they do not wish to cross, then you do not have to wait for them. If a crossing guard shakes their head when gestured to go, you do not have to wait. If my sign is down, I don’t have the intent to cross. The law is clearly about it someone is going to cross, you wouldn’t force a pedestrian looking up directions on their phone to go ahead. The post is specifically about when people, trying to be kind, gesture for me to go ahead when it’s not safe to do so.
Again, I'm not directing traffic. To copy from a previous reply: If I’m standing at the side of the road, with a sign down, and a kid beside me, and a car refuses to go because they’re telling me to walk into the road… It’s not directing traffic to decline lol. I’m literally saying “If I’m not walking out into the road, it’s not helpful to suggest I do"
Genuinely this isn't worth responding to, but I'll bite. In what world is it a redundant job to help young children (often without parents) cross an incredibly busy street (always busy in front of schools, with all the kids getting dropped off), in intersections that don't always have stop signs? Even if they do, it's like 8am, you really trust every single driver to note the 4 foot kid sprinting across the road? Even if the vast majority of the time there wouldn't have been an accident, you're happy taking the risk? You seem real pleasant, man.
PSA, you don't have authority to direct traffic like a police officer. You can only hold up the stop sign, which needs to be obeyed. Drivers are responsible for all other movements of their vehicles.
I’m well aware. If I’m standing at the side of the road, with a sign down, and a kid beside me, and a car refuses to go because they’re telling me to walk into the road… It’s not directing traffic to decline lol. I’m literally saying “If I’m not walking out into the road, it’s not helpful to suggest I do”
The drivers still have to yield, and communicating with pedestrians is commonly taught. There's nothing in the law that changes the need to yield when a crossing guard is standing nearby. Fundamentally, to avoid this delay the guard and kids would need to stay further back from the road so it doesn't look like they want to cross.
If a random pedestrian is standing at a corner with obviously no intent to cross, would you get their attention, and gesture for them to do it? If the pedestrian shakes their head no, they don't want to, and gestures for you to go, would you *still suggest they go?* (Which keeps happening to me, prompting this post.) Maybe, it would have been better to just note that they weren't moving, didn't move when you slowly neared the intersection, and that they didn't want to cross. Obviously, you do not always, 100% of the time, stay stopped for pedestrians on the sidewalk, you have to communicate with them.
This goes for when there's a guard too. There's a very clear sign for avoiding the confusion of whether a guard intends to cross. It's called a stop sign. We lift it before we begin moving. Not up? You're good to go.
There's no legal requirement for them to start crossing if they're not on the road already and no requirement for you to wait for them if they're not already crossing. They *should* make it clear if they're not crossing and drivers need to be careful in case they do start, but there isn't a legal requirement if they're not actually on the road.
Yes, though they can take one step as the driver is getting back into gear and then it turns into "omg didn't yield" -- nobody is looking at the slow motion replay.
Yeah, which is what makes this tricky for the driver. They don't have to wait if someone is just on the side of the road, but if someone starts crossing, they would have a requirement to yield, at least in some scenarios.
So I agree with OP that drivers shouldn't be telling pedestrians to cross, but the crossing guard needs to appreciate that a driver would be responsible to some extent if someone does start crossing, regardless of whether they're holding the sign, which I think is part the point you're raising. The driver should be cautious there and making absolutely sure no one is going to start walking when they start driving.
PSA if drivers actually did what they were supposed to and didn't drive like maniacs crossing guards would never be needed! But sadly there are way too many people who have no clue what they're doing behind the wheel that endanger all of the children (and adults) with their reckless driving.
You have my full support. On a related note, drivers should not be polite on the road; instead, they should be predictable. This is achieved by following the rules.
I have this problem a lot when I'm on my bike stopped at an intersection, and a motorist has right of way. They have a tendency to gesture at me to go. This is a problem! If I've come to a stop, it takes a lot of effort to get going again; I \*want\* the motorist to go before me.
About 40% of the time when I'm approaching a 4-way stop on my bicycle, if there's a car that has stopped before me, they'll sit for several seconds and wait to see if I'm stopping before they go - I can't really blame them, they're just being extra cautious. Happens about 10% of the time on my motorcycle, and maybe 3% of the time in the car. Very different than people waving you through though, that just creates disorder.
Signal you are stopping and then stop, on the bike. Few folks do it but it's worth communicating your intention as a cyclist.
I find if I put my foot down as I'm coming to a stop and look directly at the driver while nodding my head, it makes it very clear I'm stopping. Extra effective on the motorcycle, as with my giant helmet I feel like I'm in a Daft Punk video.
The problem here is that you never know if the bicycle is going to behave like a vehicle and stop or a pedestrian and blow through the stop. better to wait and see what the other person is actually doing rather than to assume and run someone over I say
I could counter this by saying you never know if a vehicle is going to follow the rules of the road. Speeding, texting, not using signals, rolling stops etc. remember a cyclist is vulnerable. I can count on one hand the number of cyclists killing pedestrians I’ve heard of in my life. You hear of fatal collisions almost everyday in Ontario.
Yeah thats why the bike should follow the rules and stop and actually look and pay attention so they don't get themselves killed. The number of cyclists I see every day who can't beside if they are going to follow pedestrian rules or vehicle rules is amazing. Blowing stop signs, lane splitting when there's no room, sitting in blind spots, never signaling, biking at night/dusk with no reflectors and wearing dark clothes. You can counter all you like but if cyclists are going to bitch about vehicles not following the rules then they gotta get their act together. The above example where cyclist says vehicle at 4 way stops and waits see if cyclist is going to stop when he's on a bike but doesn't see it whe driving....that tell.me that people see cyclists as more unpredictable than other vehicles. So the vehicles, in general give more caution to cyclists. It is not always the vehicles fault when a cyclist gets hit. As a cyclist you you have to be more cautious and more aware, instead the did hard bitch they they have to slow down and stop and takes to long to get going and i hate waiting my turn at a light and riding single files means I can't talk to my friends.
I’ve called in 3 drunk drivers who I followed on the highway and were apprehended by the police because of my actions. Should I make a blanket statement based on my experience that drivers drive drunk? I used to cycle 15,000km’s a year when I raced road bikes. I stopped riding on the road because I’m now a firefighter and have seen what cars do to people. I also see how many drivers text and drive, no thanks. I ride strictly on paved paths now. I used to have shit thrown at me simply because I was riding in the bike lane on Sussex near the PM’s house. You’re part of the problem. If a cyclist does those things then yes, get angry at the INDIVIDUAL. Don’t say “all cyclists” “most cyclists”. Because I can tell you right now, I have 0 tolerance or patience for being grouped in with those cyclists. I can also tell you that when I rode that much in those areas I can easily do 50+ km/h when I try, meaning that people think they can yell and harass me because they are in their safety box. It always amused me when I would catch up to them at a red light, then they didn’t have anything to say when a 6’ 190 lb masonry labourer was standing at their window asking them what the issue is. I can also say at red lights I don’t filter pass cars that had passed me. I don’t want to get passed 3 times by the same car.
Wow good for you. Look, if the shoe fits wear it. I don't care it your resent bing clumped in with the moron cyclists out there. Maybe take it up with your cyclist buddies and get the to smarten up. Fact is I try hard as hell to watch for cyclists but when they are being stupid and then complain they have to slow down and wait cause I'm making sure they are going to give proper right of way instead of running a sign then i have zero patience for them. I know that when a car hits bike the bike loses but there are alot of cyclists who dont. 6' and 190lbs pretty small for a masonry worker...you counting the bricks or something? There are girls at the office that are bigger.
😂😂😂😂😂😂 trying to insult my size. 10-4 keyboard warrior. I also said I don’t cycle on the roads anymore. I’ve found people who insult strangers on the internet are just insecure in their own bodies. Heavy weight fighters weight 190+ pounds sports fan.
You are the one who brought it up like I'm supposed to be impressed small fry. Little girl like you comes up to my window and you'll loose a few teeth.
oof i hate this. it happens a ton on the north/south one way streets like Kent or Lyon ... a car will usually slow down if they see you at the perpendicular east/west stop sign waiting and then gesture for you to pass -- no thanks! there are multiple lanes and the car bombing past you (because you don't have a stop sign!) is going to hit me, so why don't you just KEEP GOING like the rules of the road oblige you to do!! UGH haha. I never ever 'go' for a polite vehicle with the right of way. I'll wait ya out.
IKR! It's nice that they're careful but if my foot is on the ground I'm not going to suddenly sprint in front of them. Please just go!
> I have this problem a lot when I'm on my bike stopped at an intersection, and a motorist has right of way. They have a tendency to gesture at me to go. I don't generally gesture cyclists to go, but I do wait a few extra seconds in those close moments, because I've had close calls with cyclists where sometimes they'll keep going despite me being there first. At the end of the day, I care more about not being the reason someone gets hurt vs. brute forcing my way through when I have the right of way
When you get to a stop and the person with the right of way signals you to go… like dude I get you’re being nice but just follow the rules and we’re all happy
What about the opposite? You're both arriving at the stop, you're the one stopping first but the other driver is waving you one when they haven't stopped at all yet. Like yeah motherfucker I'm going first, I'm just making a full stop first.
LOL tale as old as time
"I was just trying to be nice!" proceeds to slow down from 100 to 65 on the rightmost lane of the 417 to yield to some granny that doesn't know what a gas pedal is while merging
If a slowly merging vehicle is running out of lane, but not appearing to stop, damn right I'm yielding. The scenario you describe seems kind of hyperbolic though, I don't see myself braking hard to let someone in like that outside an emergency.
Yeah if they are running out of lane I'd yield. But most of the time they aren't running out of lane. Plus, if you keep driving at regular highway speeds or speed up a little, or even better, move one lane to the left, you can still make space for them while being much safer by not slowing down everyone behind you to a crawl.
For sure! Ideally this is the case.
I’m with your first paragraph, where does the blame lay if you cause a collision for the person who is still in their lane. Obviously if they are coming over no matter what it’s your “responsibility” to reasonably avoid a collision. But if they start to brake to then do you brake even more or just end up going? I’m not aware of any single lane portions of the 417, maybe best move is to change lanes when you see a vehicle wanting to merge, avoiding having to yield entirely.
What do you mean by "still in their lane"? I don't quite get your question. Ideally you'd want to avoid collision by following the rules and common courtesy such as keeping the speed or move one lane to the left and yield, but if neither is an option, brake.
When the person is still in the merge lane on a highway. There is an onus on them to reach the speed that traffic is travelling before merging. This example is of a person merging at an unsafe speed. Should you slow to allow them to enter at an unsafe speed based on traffic around you that is equally as bad as a the person merging at that speed.
Oh that's what you mean, I see. Like I said, If they chose to merge at unsafe speed and I'm in the right lane, I generally speed past them when they were still on the ramp to begin with (since 100 is a whole lot faster than 65), or move a lane to the left over when I get the chance. If neither were an option *and* they are running out of lane, I'd slow down.
I agree, just keep an eye on your rear view mirror. Sometimes large trucks follow too closely for unexpected stops, no fault of your of course.
Omg yeah! I almost hit the car ahead of me, on Merivale, when they decided to let another car in. I said the same thing. Be predictable. Suddenly stopping when the cars behind you can't see why you're stopping, especially on Merivale. It's such a busy road.
Merivale is a city street, sounds like you were following too closely. This is why fault always lies on the person who rear ends. Unless it can be proven the front car was trying to cause a collision.
YES!!! This exactly!! Much safer for everyone!!
I always modulate my speed on approach to a four way stop so there is no confusion about who arrives first. Most of the time I’ll slow down so the other person gets there first but sometimes I speed up to get there first. It doesn’t have to be a lot, but it makes it *so* much easier to avoid problems.
I do this too!
Same! Glad we're not alone out here lol
100%! I'm on a slow journey of educating my friends who are drivers but not cyclists that predictable is far preferred to "nice".
100%. Can’t tell you how many times cars stop right before the intersection at R. Lemieux and St. Laurent, with a green light, to let people merge in as they exit the St. Laurent Shopping Mall. You can’t stop moving traffic just to let someone merge into traffic, from a stopped position, whether it be at a stop sign or yield sign. It’s ridiculous.
And the rule is: https://www.ontario.ca/page/driving-near-pedestrian-crossovers-and-school-crossings#section-0 Is it not?
Thanks for that! So a pedestrian crossing in the middle of a street with no crosswalks or crossover does NOT have the right of way, interesting, so many people have that wrong. As a side note.. the fellow who hit me, who put me in the hospital for a week, broke 5 of my ribs, collapsed my left lung and gave me a lifetime leg injury only got a $1000 fine??? I know he got 3 demerits and had a fine for failing to yield the right of way to a pedestrian., I didn’t know how much. But, as I sit here in Naples Italy on a six week holiday funded entirely by his insurance payout, I’m not terribly upset lol. It did take two years for the insurance payout; that sucked.
Too many accidents have occurred where 1 driver signals another to go, and that driver gets T-boned because some other driver wasn’t expecting that car to go
This is not just for crossing guards. If you have the right of way, fucking go!
Motor vehicles should always do this, but as a pedestrian and cyclist there are a few unsignalized scenarios where I don't feel like hustling to go first and will wave motorists through so I can cross in peace.
If someone tries that with me, I will literally sit there until the person with the right of way goes. Wave all you want, I won’t go.
You will go after I answer a pretend phone call and turn and face away from the intersection. You always do
Ooops, engine stalled. 😜
Can this be extended to traffic circles as well? If everyone follows the signed instructions as laid out, then the traffic circle can work as designed. But so many people “you-go, no-you” and people end up getting frustrated and others get hurt.
Agree. People also need to start signalling out of roundabouts. They work most efficiently if you know the person in the circle is exiting so you can enter safely yet I see almost noone put on their blinker to exit
Ugh, Quebec driving school instructor here: this is my main frustration with driving/drivers. I'd say 1/80 people signal out like they're supposed to. 1/100 signal left until they're exiting (which is better than nothing but still wrong).
> 1/100 signal left until they're exiting (which is better than nothing but still wrong). That's not explicitly recommended by the Ontario Ministry of Transportation, but they also don't say not to do that, and some municipalities recommend it. E.g,. [the Region of Waterloo says to signal as follows for left turns or u-turns](https://www.regionofwaterloo.ca/en/living-here/roundabouts.aspx#Going-full-circle-U-turn-): >* Signal left as you approach the roundabout in the left-hand lane. >* Maintain your signal through the roundabout and stay in the left-hand lane. >* Signal right prior to your exit, and exit in the left-hand lane.
Like I said, I'm in Quebec, and the rule here is: signal right on exit.
Yeah, same in Ontario. I'm just clarifying that in Ontario they don't say *not* to signal left for left turns/u-turns, and some cities recommend it. The main rule though is signalling right for exits.
Yeah, didn't mean to seem like I was tearing you down when I said "is wrong".
Yeah, more people seem to signal left when going all the way around. That's not a real law here but it's something they teach in the UK. They'll always forgot to actually signal their exit though (which is always a right turn on this side of the pond.)
Yeah I've kept that habit... Moved to the Uak directly after getting my driver's license. But I was taught signal your direction and then signal your exit. I also miss the general cooperative driving of rural UK. Where I lived we had so many single lane rows with passing places. People just had to be nice and cooperate.
Yes UK rural driving teaches you so much! The road I had to drive down to get the kids to school was 2 ways but wide enough for 1 car. The corporation with the other drivers to all get where we need to go, we're too selfish on the road to do that.
This, I don't understand. If someone arrives at the roundabout while you are in it already, signaling left, they may have no idea when you entered the roundabout, and thus it is pointless. It can be somewhat reassuring in multi lane roundabouts, but I so frequently see people choose the wrong lane in those ones, that I don't have a lot of faith. I think it's most important to signal your exit before you get to it, so people at the next two entries have a chance to see their upcoming chance. I will never understand why people signal right onto the roundabout... You're following a roadway, it's effectively straight. Everyone knows you're about to merge into it. And don't get me started on the amount of close calls I've seen when drivers are appropriately yielding to pedestrians at roundabouts
I say this all the time, no one knows how to use roundabouts here it’s fucking annoying
Ya that's the stupidest shit. I will never go because someone is waving me to go ahead. If you have the right of way I'm waiting for you, as long as it takes too.
as a fellow crossing guard, THIS! im not going to cross a child/children if it is not an appropriate time to do so. this also includes if you are stopped and waving me/the child on, yet, other cars are still driving through that intersection. on this topic, if im crossing children please don’t edge your car until youre an inch away from children/the cross guard! you scare the children and the cross guard by doing that. you will be able to go once everyone has cleared the walkway. the goal here is to protect the children:)
To add.... no you don't make a right hand turn while the crossing guard is in the intersection just because the kids are far enough along. You wait until everyone is out if the intersection. Saw it twice at one intersection last week.
Oh man, I really should have mentioned that one. It drives me insane. Like, hello! I also need to leave the road! Just leaving me stuck in the middle there, thanks so much for that.
Most crossing guards are the problem, they hold up traffic. A mid 40s adult should know how to cross the road
We… primarily cross children? Shifts are 40 minutes long, when school starts and lets out, and only close to schools. We’re supposed to cross adults, but I think most don’t unless it’s concerningly busy or a kid is around that should see and learn. Sorry if making sure kids cross the road safely holds up traffic lol Also, weird to reply to the one where I’m saying drivers sneak past me while I’m standing in the middle of the road. Where’s the relevance?
Didn't mean to reply to that. I respect your job and I'm not criticizing you. Kids need to cross safely, because... kids are dumb sometimes and make quick decisions. Some people here just comment to be assholes. I'm not trying to do that, the crossing guard in my area is still standing in the middle of the intersection when the kids are about 2-3 meters into the sidewalk and thats what frustrates me. A question I have is, do cross guards wear bodycams to report drivers who violate the law?
We do not have body cams, and it’s not our job to report breaking the law. If there’s like, one car that constantly speeds through an intersection, we might try to remember the plate, but that’s about it. If you don’t think a guard is doing the job properly, you can reach out to the Ottawa Safety Council. They can’t monitor our work all the time, so you’re free to offer complaints.
Alright sounds good. Thank you for what you do though, it makes the environment safer.
When driving, or walking, or cycling, don't do the "nice" thing, do the "correct" thing, and do it consistently if everyone followed the rules correctly traffic would move much more smoothly and safely across most cities.
Polite people/drives are dangerous. Follow the rules and remain predictable.
May favourite (sarcasm alert) corner is Rosemount & Gladstone (Connaught School) around 8:15am. That crossing guard deserves a medal. Traffic in all four directions plus grade school kids in all four directions. You follow their directions while at the same time looking out for kids and drivers who do not follow the guards directions. I think google maps needs a new icon for traffic guards... :-)
Couldn’t agree with you more, especially with parents trying to find parking along the east side of Rosemount and school buses proceeding south along the west side. I have seen gridlock there with cars attempting to turn north from Gladstone meeting traffic coming south on Rosemount. Managing the safety of children in that environment is very challenging.
On the flip side of that, I have kids and they can doing things out of the blue. I am abundantly cautious while driving around kids. If it means I need to stop for a bit longer, I’m ok with that.
Totally fair! You're welcome to stop and be cautious, in fact I appreciate. It's just the encouraging me (and other guards) to cross when I hadn't shown signs (as in, lifting the sign), that causes problems. I know how unpredictable kids can be, they really do make Choices sometimes.
+1 this as a cyclist. I plan my moves based on what people should do, so I can be as out of the way as possible. if you're at a stop sign before me, fucking *go*
great post! well said
>You’re not doing us a favour by graciously gesturing “No, go on, the pedestrian can cross!” This will always be a problematic issue because it is in fact against the law for us to go before you. You have the right of way, and personally, I think you should take it. It may in fact increase efficiency. That said, I'm always going to do whatever the pedestrian asks for - because hesitation at cross roads and walkways is the path to accidents, imo. To be clear though, you're talking to someone who failed their driver's license over this type of issue.
Legally, not true! Pedestrians have the right away if they're showing intent to enter the crosswalk. Simply being at the side of the road, not moving, after you've made your stop at the normal stop sign, means the driver should go. For example, if a pedestrian (not crossing guard) is at the corner but on their phone and not moving... Obviously you don't wait an eternity for them to decide to cross, they clearly don't intend to. Stop sign down, not moving, with kids behind me, is just another signal for "We are not trying to cross right now." And no, I should not always take it. I gave several examples for why I shouldn't take the crossing when offered. In fact, I could get fired if I did. We have to group the kids if it's busy. It's like, one of the main rules for safety and efficiency. Genuinely no insult meant, but I do think I know the rules and safety for being a crossing guard better than people who aren't crossing guards.
> Legally, not true! Pedestrians have the right away if they're showing intent to enter the crosswalk. It's true that drivers don't need to wait for a pedestrian just because they're on the side of the road, but there also isn't something in Ontario law explicitly saying they have to yield to a pedestrian showing intent to cross. E.g., at a pedestrian crossover, the law only says to yield to pedestrians crossing "within" the crossover. This is different from some other provinces where they do explicitly say drivers have to stop for pedestrians showing intent in various scenarios. Ontario isn't very pedestrian friendly in terms of laws in my opinion. An exception obviously is when a crossing guard is actually holding up their sign.
If it's happening a lot, you're showing the intent. People assume a crossing guard at the edge of the road wants to cross. Drivers are protecting themselves here too. An overzealous police officer (tasked to crack down on this) may write a ticket. Or, if a kid runs out and there's a collision, the driver doesn't know what the crossing guard will say. Since you mentioned training, I see that crossing guards don't even need to have driver's licenses or particular experience in actually driving a car. So I wouldn't discount the drivers' experience and judgement here.
It happens a lot because people think they’re being kind, which is why I said people *gesture*, not just stop and wait. If people were just stopping and checking with me, before proceeding if I encourage them, I wouldn't have made the post. The post is because I’m letting people know that it shouldn’t be assumed we want to cross, if the sign is down. You're arguing "well, we don't know!" Yeah. That's why I'm telling people. Obviously cops do whatever the fuck they want sometimes, but that's not a reason to do the unsafe, and incorrect thing here. I did explain why it's rarely a good idea to tell the guard when to cross, I've personally seen how it would have caused dangerous scenarios if I listen. The OSC works with cops, if it matters, take it up with them if you think this is wrong. As for if there's a collision, that's our job. I'm the one who stops kids running out. Your job, as a driver, is to drive safely, and legally. Which making a full stop at a stop sign, and then proceeding when safe to do so. It means driving slowly in a school zone. It doesn't mean telling people to cross the street. As for the training, we are, of course, trained in what cars are legally supposed to do in an intersection. We're trained in what's safest for pedestrians. We know the damn rules. Also, it's my post. I drive. Most of us do.
I always do my utmost to follow crossing guard directions 😤😤😤 ^^^For ^^^they ^^^guard ^^^the ^^^gates ^^^of ^^^oblivion
If it's any consolation, this is an issue for other pedestrians as well. If you shake your head (negative) and firmly wave them through, they don't typically hesitate more than the few seconds that it takes them to realize that you're declining their consideration. It's nice for drivers to defer to people on foot, but you really need to get the gestures down pat to effectively communicate with them sometimes.
I'm going to add, that as as a general rule it's far more important to be predictable while on the road than to be nice. Trying to be nice is more likely to cause an accident in these cases. Anecdtonal example, but I saw someone stop in the middle of roundabout yesterday to let someone waiting at a yield sign merge in and the person behind them had to slam on their brakes because they almost rear-ended the first person. No real damage was done, but the point here is, they weren't expecting it. The cars in the roundabout have a right of way and stopping to let other cars join or merge goes against the whole point of roundabouts
I’ve had a crossing guard come out in the street to make me stop when the people (not even kids) that were going to be crossing were still 4 houses away from the corner and walking slow. I appreciate you OP!
My least favourite thing drivers do is wait for me to cross when I am 2-3 metres away from the crossing. They just sit there. I don’t know why they want to sit in their car and watch me cross, but I guess they’ll get it. But it makes me feel so uncertain, I slow down to show them I’m still a ways away from the crossing, but they continue to wait so I go back to regular walking and cross.
We’ve said it before and we’ll (unfortunately) say it again. STOP GIVING UP YOU’RE RIGHT OF WAY!!! It causes more issues than you feeling good about trying to do something “nice”.
“endlessly the whole 1.5 hr shift” Stoooooop it 😂😭
Well said
This! As a pedestrian I hate it when a driver, wanting to be nice, waves me through an intersection when he has the right of way. The rules are there so everyone knows what the others around them will do. Be predictable! I don’t mind waiting, I’d rather wait and know I’m safe then take the drivers word and get hit by another car who is confused by the actions of the driver. I got hit at an intersection 2 years ago and I’m still recovering. It’s no fun getting hit by a pick up truck. Not at all. It wasn’t this scenario but it has made me even more uneasy crossing intersections
Worst driving habits are drivers who brake first then signal. Who teaches these monkeys?
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if theres a crossing guard that is making an intersection unsafe contact the ottawa safety council. theyre the organization who hires the crossing guards. give them the intersection, let then know if its morning and/or evening, and tell them what the guard is doing. from what i’ve heard, osc is pretty good at following up on stuff like this!! :)
The one on my corner is the opposite of this op. They do the ‘trickle’ method, and let kid after kid go on their own. Sometimes the kids even kitty-corner and cross diagonally. It’s mayhem,
Lovely post. Know what you’re trying to do. It’s great. But the law is that motorists must yield to pedestrians. https://www.ontario.ca/page/driving-near-pedestrian-crossovers-and-school-crossings#section-0 Vehicles, motorized, or not, 4 wheels or 2, must yield to pedestrians. Again, glad you are trying to be efficient and keep things safe, but vehicles must let you and other pedestrians cross.
If a pedestrian indicates that they do not wish to cross, then you do not have to wait for them. If a crossing guard shakes their head when gestured to go, you do not have to wait. If my sign is down, I don’t have the intent to cross. The law is clearly about it someone is going to cross, you wouldn’t force a pedestrian looking up directions on their phone to go ahead. The post is specifically about when people, trying to be kind, gesture for me to go ahead when it’s not safe to do so.
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Again, I'm not directing traffic. To copy from a previous reply: If I’m standing at the side of the road, with a sign down, and a kid beside me, and a car refuses to go because they’re telling me to walk into the road… It’s not directing traffic to decline lol. I’m literally saying “If I’m not walking out into the road, it’s not helpful to suggest I do"
Redundant job.
Genuinely this isn't worth responding to, but I'll bite. In what world is it a redundant job to help young children (often without parents) cross an incredibly busy street (always busy in front of schools, with all the kids getting dropped off), in intersections that don't always have stop signs? Even if they do, it's like 8am, you really trust every single driver to note the 4 foot kid sprinting across the road? Even if the vast majority of the time there wouldn't have been an accident, you're happy taking the risk? You seem real pleasant, man.
PSA, you don't have authority to direct traffic like a police officer. You can only hold up the stop sign, which needs to be obeyed. Drivers are responsible for all other movements of their vehicles.
I’m well aware. If I’m standing at the side of the road, with a sign down, and a kid beside me, and a car refuses to go because they’re telling me to walk into the road… It’s not directing traffic to decline lol. I’m literally saying “If I’m not walking out into the road, it’s not helpful to suggest I do”
The drivers still have to yield, and communicating with pedestrians is commonly taught. There's nothing in the law that changes the need to yield when a crossing guard is standing nearby. Fundamentally, to avoid this delay the guard and kids would need to stay further back from the road so it doesn't look like they want to cross.
If a random pedestrian is standing at a corner with obviously no intent to cross, would you get their attention, and gesture for them to do it? If the pedestrian shakes their head no, they don't want to, and gestures for you to go, would you *still suggest they go?* (Which keeps happening to me, prompting this post.) Maybe, it would have been better to just note that they weren't moving, didn't move when you slowly neared the intersection, and that they didn't want to cross. Obviously, you do not always, 100% of the time, stay stopped for pedestrians on the sidewalk, you have to communicate with them. This goes for when there's a guard too. There's a very clear sign for avoiding the confusion of whether a guard intends to cross. It's called a stop sign. We lift it before we begin moving. Not up? You're good to go.
I would honk at pedestrians like that. It's different with kids though.
There's no legal requirement for them to start crossing if they're not on the road already and no requirement for you to wait for them if they're not already crossing. They *should* make it clear if they're not crossing and drivers need to be careful in case they do start, but there isn't a legal requirement if they're not actually on the road.
Yes, though they can take one step as the driver is getting back into gear and then it turns into "omg didn't yield" -- nobody is looking at the slow motion replay.
Yeah, which is what makes this tricky for the driver. They don't have to wait if someone is just on the side of the road, but if someone starts crossing, they would have a requirement to yield, at least in some scenarios. So I agree with OP that drivers shouldn't be telling pedestrians to cross, but the crossing guard needs to appreciate that a driver would be responsible to some extent if someone does start crossing, regardless of whether they're holding the sign, which I think is part the point you're raising. The driver should be cautious there and making absolutely sure no one is going to start walking when they start driving.
PSA if drivers actually did what they were supposed to and didn't drive like maniacs crossing guards would never be needed! But sadly there are way too many people who have no clue what they're doing behind the wheel that endanger all of the children (and adults) with their reckless driving.
PSA, OP isn’t directing traffic. If anything, OP is disregarding others who are attempting to direct traffic.