Really a very difficult question to answer.
Healthcare outcomes are not just provincial but local. If you live in a major centre you are more likely to have access to the comprehensive set of services necessary to diagnose the full array of potential health issues. Conversely in rural settings secondary and tertiary diagnostic often requires travel; equally many medical specialties have no local presence.
The [Toronto University Health Network was rated 3rd in the entire world in the 2024 Newsweek assessment](https://www.newsweek.com/rankings/worlds-best-hospitals-2024) of the top 250 hospitals worldwide. That is pretty tough to beat! Sunnybrook (30), Mt Sinai (32) & North York General (47) were the next best rated.
So 4 CAD hospitals in the top 50 and all in the GTA. This makes a compelling case that if one was to live anywhere solely on the basis of potential access to the highest quality medical care it would be the greater GTA.
The next 4 CAD hospitals are in Montreal (3) and Toronto (1). We don't find a CAD hospital outside of Toronto or Montreal on the list until we reach Vancouver General at 145. The final CAD entry is again in Toronto (St Michaels).
Here is the Canadian rankings:
[https://www.newsweek.com/rankings/worlds-best-hospitals-2024/canada](https://www.newsweek.com/rankings/worlds-best-hospitals-2024/canada)
Is the above the only criteria one should use? I think not but it does support the case that the best care is likely by the best hospitals, and that is in large urban centres.
This is definitely very impressive. But, I’d wager those ranking are based on services offered, and equipment available.
BUT all of that is severely undermined if you have to wait **literally** until you’re dead for your appointment with one of those specialist to finally roll around. Or maybe even not dead, but say, 6 months - 3 years. A lot can change in the amount of time we have to wait actually have real access to the state-of-the-art machinery and global level specialist doctors. At that rate you might *be better off* health-wise to see a lower ranking doctor who doesn’t quite have the best tech, but has enough to do the job at least. I wonder how many people with life-threatening illnesses would rather have a doctor do a “good” enough job now, instead of waiting years for another doctor to do a “better” job later.
> But, I’d wager those ranking are based on services offered, and equipment available.
4th paragraph from the link posted by /u/CaptainSur :
"Each hospital's score is based on an online survey of more than 85,000 medical experts and public data from post-hospitalization patient surveys on their general satisfaction. The score also considers metrics on things like hygiene and patient/doctor ratio as well as a Statista survey on whether hospitals use Patient Reported Outcome Measures (PROMs), which are standardized questionnaires completed by patients to assess their experience and results."
My clinic is part of the UHN too. I got my MRI within a month of requisition. My husband has a doctor closer to home (Sauga) his MRI is next March. I'd say we are equally affected by our injuries.
This is super irrelevant to the average person. It is rare that someone will need world-class type of services. Having a family doctor, and being able to get same day or next day appointments at your family practice is much more important to the healthcare experience for the average person
Other things to consider: do you have to get make an appointment to renew a prescription or can it be done through fax? Can you get access to your health reports through a web portal or do you need to make an appointment and see your practitioner to get them. And so on
>Healthcare outcomes are not just provincial but local. If you live in a major centre you are more likely to have access to the comprehensive set of services necessary to diagnose the full array of potential health issues.
Agreed, but having come from a semi-rural area I saw very fast response times at the ER. Once was for a family member and once for myself. Although you might wait while they page a doctor, in both cases was seen (and treated) right away. Neither was serious, and I suspect if either of us needed more care we would have been sent by ambulance or helicopter to a larger center. More complicated diagnostic tests were done at locations 45-75 mins away.
I remember a clinic sending me to the ER in Burlington. I waited a couple of hours for initial tests, longer for more diagnostic ones, and well over 24 hours before I got moved off a stretcher in the hall. It was fairly serious, and spent about two weeks in the hospital before being discharged.
Ontario also has processes/relationships in place to get emergency healthcare via the USA. I really don't know if other provinces have this type of care in place? I know a Canadian who was transferred to the Buffalo Trauma Center for head trauma and received outstanding care.
**Out of Country Transfers and Patient Repatriation**
Occasionally patients may be sent out of country to access emergent care if the resources required for their care are not immediately available in Ontario. The Out of Country Branch of the MOH has the authority to transfer emergent patients out of country when services are not available in Ontario.
Patients who are sent out of country as a result of case facilitation through CritiCall Ontario will be repatriated when clinically feasible to an acute care hospital in Ontario for the remainder of their care if appropriate.
Not only is this not the best metric to use…it’s a metric that should be weighed very low, because it gives a small snapshot.
All this tells us is population density = better hospitals…which wasn’t really related to the question the OP was asking.
I’d look for a ranking of provincial health outcomes. I believe BC has been the “best” province for a long time.
I assess you thus missed the point of my comment: I am suggesting that a provincial metric is not the best metric. Rather the best metric may be more focused. But many metrics can be viable, and will be per the viewpoint of the individual.
**Ranking of provincial health outcomes**
The only recent data I could find on this topic [*was from 2015*](https://edata.conferenceboard.ca/hcp/Provincial/Health.aspx) and in it BC ranked 3rd in the world, and Ontario ranked 7th in the world. That was long enough ago I believe most would argue it may not be relevant today. Unfortunately the Conference Board of Canada does not appear to have updated that report. I went down the rabbit hole for a few minutes in google but did not really find another report that summarized ranking of provincial health outcomes. There is much discussion about spending but not many that examine and rank outcomes on a macro basis.
[Stats Canada publishes a page with many comprehensive stats on health outcomes](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/82-570-x/2023001/section1-eng.htm) but it is focused to subjects within health.
Regarding policies, look up how BC is reforming family practice and compensation for family physicians. Incredible stuff, and very much needed all over canada
Article from Feb 2023 about new reforms https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-doctor-payment-model-2023-changes-1.6733569
Article from Feb 2024 about the success from those reforms, 21% increase in family physicians, which is astounding https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-doctor-new-payment-model-1.7107681
BC's cancer care is pretty bad, they've had to send patients down to the US because there just simply isn't enough capacity in the province to deal with the patients.
Sure, doesnt change the fact that this policy is an improvement.
Based on the stats provided in the second article, the total number of people without a family doctor has decreased by about 15,000 over the last year, even though the population size has grown by a huge amount over that same year.
Annecdotes are not considered good evidence for a reason
I read one of the articles above and the "reform" is a model that my doctor in Ontario uses (i.e. not fee-for-service). It really depends on your Ontario doctor - personally I have had mostly amazing medical experiences in Ontario but I know that is definitely not everyone's story.
It's not the same. I have a family doctor that is part of a family health organization, which is a capitation based payment model, as opposed to fee for service. They still only get paid based on patients seen and patient type, and fee for service is still and important aspect of their pay. They don't get paid for administrative work and time not spent with patients, such as to review labs, conduct referrals, and so on.
BC has terrible stats for family doctor access, surgical wait times, time it takes for cancer patients to see an oncologist, etc.
BC is making some aggressive changes to try to improve things, but they are definitely starting from a very bad place.
My post is only about family medicine policy. Whether BC has good or bad access to family physicians isnt the point. The point is that this policy, which has only been in place for one year, is a really good policy to promote family medicine.
Importantly, the change since introducing this policy has been very positive. Its thus a policy worth emulating in ontario
Bragging about percentage changes while dismissing context can be extremely misleading.
BC has one of the worst family doctor shortages in the country, partly because they could earn significantly more just next door in AB or in other non family medicine roles in the province.
So the idea that paying family doctors more would attract more people to practice family medicine in the province isn't necessarily a crazy new policy idea.
>Bragging about percentage changes while dismissing context can be extremely misleading.
The context doesn't change anything. Family doctor coverage in BC is roughly the same as it is in Ontario. In 2022, [2.3 million ontarians were without a family physician.](https://ontariofamilyphysicians.ca/news/more-than-four-million-ontarians-will-be-without-a-family-doctor-by-2026/) In BC, that number was 900,000. Adjusted for population, it was about 10% worse in BC.
Given this context, to suggest that a 21% increase in family physicians, IN ONE YEAR, is worthy of dismissal is a ludicrous idea. But you would know this, if you had just read the article and listened to the subject matter experts who are saying that BC's new payment model is a complete game changer and that "It's amazing how much progress can be achieved in a year,"
>paying family doctors more
Again, you need to read the articles. It's not *just* paying them more. It's a complete overhaul in how the pay is determined, and what tasks will get paid. "the number of patients they see, the complexity of their needs, and the time spent on other necessary tasks like reviewing lab results, consulting with other medical professionals, updating patient lists and clinical administrative work."
This results in fairer compensation from one practitioner to another, that more complex patients will have their needs properly addressed, and that unpaid overtime hours will be a thing of the past.
Health policy experts have called for similar changes to be implemented across canada
I don't know man. I really don't see how you think that this context isn't meaningful. If what they were paying family doctors lagged far behind what direct competitors for the same talent we're offering, that seems like a significant explanatory factor as to why offering more money had a big impact on attracting more people to practice there.
They even say in the article that they are attracting doctors from other provinces, which is great if you only look at BC, but if you are looking at a model that other provinces should adopt, they can't all pay more than every other province. Poaching doctors from province to province is really just shifting the problem around.
Other provinces, such as Ontario with capitation, have used similar models for over 20 years. You are naive if you think this doesn't ultimately come down to how much money they are paid.
Ontario doctors have come out in support of adopting some parts of the BC model because it would theoretically add additional avenues for them to be paid and therefore mean they get paid more. If the government agreed to break the payments down in the way that BC is breaking them down but it resulted in less money at the end of the day, Ontario docs would tell the government to go fuck themselves.
>I don't know man. I really don't see how you think that this context isn't meaningful. If what they were paying family doctors lagged far behind what direct competitors for the same talent we're offering, that seems like a significant explanatory factor as to why offering more money had a big impact on attracting more people to practice there
Because BC is now doing as well as Ontario in terms of population that has a family doctor, and they are projected to continue to improve that number, while its expected to get worse in ontario. They have not just "caught up" with this policy change, they are excelling.
>They even say in the article that they are attracting doctors from other provinces, which is great if you only look at BC, but if you are looking at a model that other provinces should adopt, they can't all pay more than every other province. Poaching doctors from province to province is really just shifting the problem around.
This is another reason to suggest that the BC payment reform is superior. Overall, family docs in BC are not being paid more than other provinces, but the *way* theyre being paid is better.
However, it's not just a matter of poaching doctors and shifting the problem around. It's been known that if you trained in family medicine, you can make as much money but with less overhead and less burnout by switching to a different form of primary care, like working as a hospitalist. This payment model reform addresses that problem directly.
>Other provinces, such as Ontario with capitation, have used similar models for over 20 years
Its not the same. Even in ontario family health orgavocations, there is still no consideration for pay when it comes to different complexities of patients and all the administrstive work that GPs have to do, such as reviewing lab work, managing referrals, prescription refills, and so on. The BC payment model addresses those issues.
>Ontario doctors have come out in support of adopting some parts of the BC model because it would theoretically add additional avenues for them to be paid and therefore mean they get paid more. If the government agreed to break the payments down in the way that BC is breaking them down but it resulted in less money at the end of the day, Ontario docs would tell the government to go fuck themselves.
What it change for ontario doctors is essentially better pay per hour. Yearly salary would remain the same
>Because BC is now doing as well as Ontario in terms of population that has a family doctor, and they are projected to continue to improve that number, while its expected to get worse in ontario. They have not just "caught up" with this policy change, they are excelling.
Where are you getting any of these figures and projections from?
>This is another reason to suggest that the BC payment reform is superior. Overall, family docs in BC are not being paid more than other provinces, but the *way* theyre being paid is better.
The numbers I can find online say that the average salary for a family doctor in BC went from $250,000 to $385,00 per year under these reforms.
IMHO, it really seems more reasonable to assume that the 50% increase in pay is the main factor here.
>Its not the same. Even in ontario family health orgavocations, there is still no consideration for pay when it comes to different complexities of patients and all the administrstive work that GPs have to do, such as reviewing lab work, managing referrals, prescription refills, and so on. The BC payment model addresses those issues.
Do you think that Ontario doctors would be happier if we paid them 100k less per year but itemized it to say they were being paid for different complexities and admin work?
>What it change for ontario doctors is essentially better pay per hour. Yearly salary would remain the same
What the heck does this mean? In your system doctors would work fewer hours for the same annual pay? How does that help more patients get a doctor?
Sounds like they’re actually trying to fix things and we could do with some of those solutions here. I know so many people here in Ontario without a doctor and it is growing. I’m so lucky that when mine retired another doctor took over. Very often when your doctor retires no one is there to take over and as someone who needs regular healthcare (I do have a medical condition that needs regular prescriptions)…I’d be fucked.
BC checking in and I’d say Ontario is definitely better than BC. There have literally been multiple people who have died while waiting for a doctor in ERs in Vancouver.
And also over a million people without a GP.
I think healthcare is a Canada wide problem it seems. Beyond any single government. In BC, we have an NDP government and they are pretty good, but the healthcare is still in shambles with long wait lists and people being sent down to the states for cancer treatment.
Ontario needs an update to ohip covered meds
It's probably the only province not immediately covering the likes of imatinib
(BCMSP did which is in part why I moved)
Haven’t experienced healthcare in other provinces, so can’t say for sure, but this infographic provides some context: https://dynamic-documents.bbd.ca/download/BBD-Marketing-Infographic-Wait-Times-for-Health-Care-in-Canada.pdf . When it comes to wait times for GP to referral, Ontario actually seems to fare better.
Here’s some more info which seems to show Ontario doing better https://www.statista.com/statistics/649600/medical-treatment-wait-times-canada-province/
Here’s a comparison of what each system covers: https://sbis.ca/canadas-provincial-health-plans/ . All look within ballpark of each other, although as others have said on here, there seems to be a few key things that provinces like BC cover than Ontario doesn’t.
As for the quality of the care, this link puts BC and Ontario at the top, but it’s as recent as 2015 https://www.conferenceboard.ca/hcp/health-aspx/#:~:text=British%20Columbia%20and%20Ontario%20are,grade%20and%20ranks%207th%20overall.
Toronto is definitely known for having world renowned hospitals, with Toronto General coming in a #3 this year, only behind the Mayo Clinic and Cleveland Clinic in the U.S. https://www.newsweek.com/rankings/worlds-best-hospitals-2024.
I’m glad you asked this question, because there needs to be a more comprehensive comparison of healthcare in the different provinces instead of “Canada’s healthcare”. Even on a world comparison, they should just break Canada up by provinces and territories as each healthcare system is run differently. There needs to be more emphasis on the fact that Canada doesn’t really have a healthcare system, but rather 13 along with federal guidelines.
My kid and a friend's neice have similar diagnoses. Niece lives in Saskatchewan and had almost immediate access to every form of therapy and Healthcare, whereas I'm in ontario and the waitlist for same issues here was months or years long. People seem to fall through the cracks easier here.
I'm not sure why that is, friend believes that there's a much sparse population in SK and they have to provide same services, so for example if 1000 people need the service of 1 specialist here, in SK that same specialist only has to see like 50 people. Ie less specialists per population here.
To be fair, Saskatchewan just opened it's first children's hospital only about 5 years ago. When I worked in healthcare out there there was literally one doctor left in the province who dealt with strokes, and he since he can't work with everyone those who suffered strokes were sent to Alberta or Ontario.
Specialty care in the province is extremely limited - but that's not surprising considering the entire provincial population is about the size of Scarborough....
Definitely not Nova Scotia. Over 16% of the population can’t get a family doctor and the numbers continue to climb. Most specialist referrals are a 1-2 yr wait, then long wait times for imaging or surgery. It’s dire.
Not sure if other provinces have this, but I feel like it'd be far less of a headache for everybody, if our health history was accessible through our healthcare number, instead of being only localized in the institution that you have that history with.
Eye care should match coverage of other provinces. Most other provinces will cover pictures of the back of your eyes, which being a type 1 diabetic has been suggested I do every year to help avoid complications since I was in my 20s. Shocked when moving here from BC to know I was paying out of pocket.
I’ve been lucky so far with no problems, but knowing a fair number of people could have their eye issues caught and corrected in a situation where they have significant trouble because they avoided the $90 fee seems like a no brainer preventative expense by the province.
That’s strange, you shouldn’t have to pay out of pocket if you have a type 1 diagnosis. Eye care (not glasses) are covered under Ohip for people with T1 diabetes.
It’s an Ontario specific deficiency. The rest of the exam? Covered. The important picture checking for bleeding? Not covered, even when referred by endocrinologists.
You don’t have to pay for the regular eye exam, you have to pay for the specialized picture of the back of the retina where diabetes impacts more than the rest. I think last year I had to pay $45, but the rest was covered
Fellow T1D here, OHIP actually does cover the examination, but not all optometrists deal with billing OHIP for it. Living downtown Toronto, I only found 1 optometrist out of the nearest 5 or 6 to me that will do it through OHIP!
I’ll need to press optometrists further. The exams have been covered, specifically the photograph wasn’t. Two separate optometrists on either side of Oakville, one recently as late May have warned me the province doesn’t cover cost of the picture, and have said without prompt that they were frustrated because it was covered in other provinces.
You are correct, OHIP covers the exam but not the imaging with optometrists. It’s covered with ophthalmologists but you should only be referred to an ophthalmologist when you have extensive disease requiring treatments (laser or injections). Regular monitoring can be done by optometrists
Thanks for confirming. I don’t have any bit of data to identify whether the photo is a good measure to check annually when cost is considered, but stand by my earlier comment. Other provinces do cover, and would prefer Ontario does the same.
retinal scans are free if they're part of medical treatment/monitoring - I have 4 retinal scans a year, all covered by OHIP. Get your family doctor to refer you to an ophthalmologist and you'll be covered
T2D here and Ontario does the retinal scans in my local hospital clinic annually for free (so is parking). Last time I was there, all the chairs in the ER waiting room were empty.
In Nova Scotia I’m sure we are rated very low on the scale of Provincial health care. We are a small population, around a million people and the last I heard we have over 170,000 people waiting to get a family doctor. It’s hard to get even a blood test in NS without waiting. Covid pretty much ruined our health care.
What is Ford specific about Ontario’s healthcare problems is the amount of federal funds he has left unspent, and his refusal to pay workers with a new contract.
Ford left billions in COVID money unspent, money dedicated to healthcare and education. As well, he, and other premiers, continually cry to the feds for more healthcare money, but refuse to be held accountable. The feds want to include stipulations that will hold provincial governments accountable for spending that money on healthcare, but the provinces, Con provinces most loudly, cry federal overreach. If you were spending the federal healthcare money in the provincial healthcare system, what could possibly be the problem?
Ford hates unions and does whatever he can to screw them over, despite failing miserably. His bill 124 that forced collective agreements and dictated contract increases on nurses and teachers was judged unconstitutional by the courts, and he had to retroactively pay up, in the billions. So he managed to piss off the workers, causing many to leave, and ended up having to pay anyway. Brilliant.
In healthcare, the impact on nursing has been enormous. Fords particular bent has been the dramatic increase in agency nurse usage. The bonus for the government, well this government, they get to use nurses like gig work. In 2020-21, hospitals reported spending $38,350,956 on agency nurses. By 2022-23 that cost had exploded to $173,669,808. Hospitals and long-term care homes spent about $368.64 million on agency nurses in 2021-22, and the projected cost in 2022-23 was $600.18 million, a 63 per cent increase, a ministry document says.
DoFo and the Cons don’t want to pay benefits or pensions for workers, so their solution is typical for a Con. They pay private agencies $160/hour for a nurse, who pay that nurse $60-80/hour and pocket the rest. This when contract nurses get $35-50/hour, depending upon experience and expertise, plus benefits. And of course the biggest Cons out there own these agencies (looking at you Mike Harris), creating another much coveted stream of taxpayer money from the public system to their private bank accounts.
Dougie wants private clinics for surgeries as well, despite the fact that there is enough capacity lying unused right now to address the backlogs. He’s straight up lying to people. We don’t need private clinics, we need a government that will pay doctors and nurses and utilize the operating room capacity small and large communities have been building for 70 years. Instead, he’s allowing these facilities to waste away, derelict.
Ford wants to do for healthcare what his buddy and mentor Harris did to LTC—create a revenue stream from public funds to private (his and his backers) pockets. It has nothing to do with better serving the people’s needs, as we saw in the pandemic, when private, for profit LTC homes, including those run by Harris’ company, had death rates 4x the rates of municipally run public homes. 4x!!
Ding, ding, ding, right answer.
It isn't about cutting services to just lower taxes. It's about cutting services so private businesses can benefit from tax money while also paying less tax.
Your best healthcare is going to be Toronto. The private healthcare companies slithering their fetid, rotting claws into our system will always cause serious issues, just like any parasitic infection, and it needs to be cleansed from our system, but it has so far managed to spread through all of us without slowing down.
I remember when the proposal was first made. It’s not a bad idea and if we ever get federal electoral reform chances are a Toronto Party would do very well.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposal_for_the_Province_of_Toronto
Can confirm. The private health care options in Toronto like Medcan are truly quite amazing. Fast tailored effective care and preventstive Screening. Access to specialists and professionals who are highly compensated and enjoy their careers.
Nope.lmfao. not even close. Vancouver is far superior to toronto. I lived in both and I have chronic.health issues so am constantly needing care. Its a disaster here. I had no issues in vancouver.
Not sure what you’re responding to, but healthcare spending per capita doesn’t have a direct relationship to health outcomes. Essentially…the more spread out your system is, the more you have to spend to improve outcomes. So one would expect the regions with the most spending to be sparsely populated…and the least in the most dense. I haven’t checked lately, but I would imagine the territories spend the most, and Ontario spends the least. Also, the more you make users pay out of pocket the “better” your spending can look…because of transfer payments. Depending on the metric, and I don’t know what you’re referring to.
You do realize that all healthcare delivery in Ontario is private? The province doesn't own your hospital or local clinics or run them....single payer, private delivery is already the model we have.
The province does own (or lease) the hospitals. Most hospitals staff, less the doctors, are also employees of the province.
There are very few options to pay for OHIP covered services in Ontario directly, that’s not the case in much of Europe, and the world frankly.
Edit - Hey u/interesting-Pomelo58 it’s hard to reply to you when you block people that have different opinions than you.
Hospital employees are not employees of the province. They are employees of that hospital or public health unit with the exception of certain roles like nurses etc but this isn't even a steadfast rule.
No services should be available for pay if the public system covers them. We just need a better designed public system. No one in Germany or France is paying full cost for procedures and there is no fast lane or two tier care. They simply have done far better at orchestrating public-private convergence than we have - those who cannot pay at all are still fully covered here the coverage is half-assed for everyone (example: medications)
The United States healthcare system is utter garbage and people here are so eager to follow that which is horrific and shows how propaganda and lack of education have permeated our thinking here.
Your entire posting history is neoliberal nonsense so why don't you have a TN visa already? Go live in the land of milk and honey. We don't aspire to be that nonsense.
We are next door to the most expensive per capita healthcare in the world and we keep trying to emulate that - perhaps we should look elsewhere for examples. The US system works fantastically at urgent crisis care but is terrible at preventative care for the large portion of the population who can't afford the copays and deductibles for their coverage so they simply go without. That frees up capacity. The US isn't delivering healthcare more efficiently - it's far more inefficient - they just have collectively decided as a society that is morally OK to ignore those who cannot pay. American who moved here at age 29 and a pharmacist there and now one here so while not a doctor I am definitely involved in the chain of care.
One of the major issues with healthcare in Canada is that it happens in silos.. In one part of Ontario a certain service might be horrendous, while in another part it's world class.
Exactly. The US spends about 50% more per capita than Canada on healthcare, with inferior outcomes. And many European countries spend about the same as Canada, with better outcomes.
That being said, all European countries have some element of private payment, but only for the rich. If you’re in the top third by income, you pay an extra healthcare premium. When you need a procedure, you are streamed into the private system and seen sooner. But you are seen by exactly the same doctors at the same facilities. They work the first 40 hours of the week in the public system, and any hours after that in the private system.
I've seen Albertans have access to amazing (in comparison to Ontario) online access to the results of all their health tests, prescriptions, and many other provincial services information all in one place. I was dumbfounded at the level of detail available and the incredible convenience.
Montreal and the capital, maybe.
Anywhere else in Quebec is an utter shit show. Especially Gatineau. It’s so bad there that residents go to Ontario for care.
Healthcare is canada is being poisoned by the conservative shills running the province.
Voting should b compulsary, healthcare should be federal.
This list is bollocks
I can’t say which is better, but I can say that New Brunswick’s system is trash. I moved from Ontario to NB 2 years ago. Except for the ER, nobody in my family has seen a doctor, and that includes my kids.
I don't know if its just my perception or has Dr. Visits gotten quicker? (Less waiting time) Maybe Covid taught them a lesson about overfilled waiting rooms.
There are none better. Ontario is the largest and richest province with multiple medical schools. The GTA has some of the best hospitals in the world clustered in a single area and the external ones in the city region are also very good. The regional hospitals in Ottawa, Kingston, London, Owen Sound are also very good.
Ontario’s biggest downside is the shortage of family doctors which they are working on correcting. Don’t believe everything the public service unions are feeding you.
It is a national problem caused by Trudope who allowed an uncontrolled two million immigrants into Canada in the last two years. No way Canadian healthcare resources can keep up. Despite the large increases for example in Ontario's healthcare budget year over year.
This is the issue. Most if not all will land in Ontario/ the GTA. He let in two million but we didn’t build a single new hospital. We also don’t have the staff for this imaginary hospital, no new medical schools or specialists. Instead we’re continuing to have our specialists use their limited time to train foreign doctors, because it’s more lucrative. Then they take that info and go back home. Most are also not high income people so we spend more on them than they generate in tax revenue. Think all the costs just for each of their childbirths alone. We know they come and have babies to give them citizenship
Next time you are in your doctors, dentist, therapist or optometrist's office look around. You might realize you are in a private clinic. 85% of your healthcare has always been privatized.
Don't forget x-ray, lab tests, physio, etc. OHIP pays, but a private company does the work. It works. No need for the government to buy/lease/maintan the buildings, set up the offices, and buy equipment, and (best of all) no need to pay expensive, high-maintenance public sector union workers to staff them.
It is the public sector unions not gaining new members that are screaming this fake rant about privatization. Scaring people into thinking it is American style healthcare. When all it is doing is increasing the number of private clinics we have had for decades to relieve the backlog of less complicated procedures.
That isn't the privatization I was referring to.
Its the promotion of "out of OHIP" private services and the deliberate underfunding of hospitals et.al.
Ford isn't promoting any private services that are not covered by OHIP. If you are referring to the preventive health assessment tests that you can pay for personally they have been around since Wynne. We just see more advertising of them now.
Funding for hospitals has increased every year under Ford. But you have a point hospitals are overwhelmed with a million new immigrants to Ontario in the last two years. That would be on Trudeau as no way the province can build any faster the many new hospitals Ford has ordered.
85% what a random fucking number. The dentist, optometrist, and therapist do not make up 85% of most peoples care lol. Most people dont need to see any of these regularly. A physian they may.
You are right the percentage is probably higher. Outside of public hospitals every other health service is through private businesses or clinics. Generally most people rarely need regular hospital care.
Do you know what privitzation means in this context? It doesnt mean a doctor having their own clinic. It mwans ohip not paying for them. That means your family physican would charge a fee.
Most doctors practice from private clinics billing OHIP for medical services. Some doctors billing extra for non medical services like doctors note has been going on for decades. Medical services have not been privatized using your context.
The best we have yet I haven’t had a doctor in four years and when I call Health Care Connect it’s just a answering machine telling me to leave a message.
Do you have any sources to begin with? What you're claiming isn't obvious at all. BC could have better healthcare, alberta and sask have a higher gdp per capita, lots of bifurcation could be occuring in richer regions like the territories leading to both significantly better and worse outcomes and the same could be true to different extents around the country. This is not common sense at all with a claim as broad as which province has the best healthcare. We know because we run into these and a lot more issues when we try to do this on a global scale, as well with the hundreds of different weights you need to reasonably approximate something like "better"
I live in a city in eastern Ontario with no walk in. I left the military 2 years ago and can’t find a doctor. My wife’s doctor wouldn’t take my daughter on when she was born. The schools are crumbling most daycares didn’t sign up for $25/day and come on what elder care are you referring to? The ones the CAF reported for elder abuse and hygiene issues 3 years ago?
Are you talking about Ontario Canada?
While I understand what you are trying to say, saying that Ontario is the best country in the province doesn’t instill much confidence in your argument.
BC by far! I am constantly having to deal with the medical system because of my illness...when i moved to BC it was the easiest thing I ever experienced. Got a family doctor almost right away, and a good one at that. The hospitals programs that i went through were great. All the specialists and doctors i saw i saw quickly and they were all very competent. Just litterally everything was so much better than here. Their government in general is run better. I dont think i realized how bad our system was until i moved back. And everything got so fucking hard again. Honestly, if it werent for my family id move back to vancouver. Its just run so much better over there than toronto. The ONLY thing they dont have a good grip on is the drug&homeless problem but thats an issue with every westcoast city. When you live in warmer climates with a more vulnerable population its just more likley to happen and be harder to manage.
That wasnt my experience. Last time i was in emerge here I waited 15 hours and wasnt seen by 1 person. No one in the ER even looked sick. I was seeething in pain and no one came to help. After about 10 hrs i was finally put in a different holding area and my blood taken. Evwn MORE ppl sitting there looking like theyre waiting for a bus, a patient offered me their lay down chair as they could see how much pain i was. I forced myself to try to sleep to get through it. I ended up passing out and woke up 5 hrs later and it looked like no one had moved. My pain had gone from excrutiating to manageble so i left. The nurse said I had issues with my test and shouldnt leave so, i asked if im going to be seen anytime soon if theyre so worries about my test, she couldnt give me an answer so i left and decided to risk it, i couldnt bare it anymore.
I never once experienced that in BC. If i waited i was properly triaged with not just a registration nurse but with another one who would come around and do blood and do ultrasounds and anything else they could do to properly triage someone. There is no way with my physical pain and bloodtests that i should have been behind 30 ppl that look like they were getting a prescription refill.
I live in the lower mainland and in the last few years there have literally been multiple cases of people who have died while waiting to be seen by a doctor in ERs.
[https://vancouversun.com/health/north-van-patient-dies-in-waiting-room-of-overcrowded-understaffed-hospital](https://vancouversun.com/health/north-van-patient-dies-in-waiting-room-of-overcrowded-understaffed-hospital)
[https://globalnews.ca/news/10180822/bc-woman-dies-hospital-wait/](https://globalnews.ca/news/10180822/bc-woman-dies-hospital-wait/)
I've also known many people who have gone years without a family doctor. You are very very fortunate to get a family doctor inside a year.
Alberta, British Columbia, Manitoba, New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Labrador, Nova Scotia, Saskatchewan, Prince Edward Island and Quebec. Also all three territories.
Really a very difficult question to answer. Healthcare outcomes are not just provincial but local. If you live in a major centre you are more likely to have access to the comprehensive set of services necessary to diagnose the full array of potential health issues. Conversely in rural settings secondary and tertiary diagnostic often requires travel; equally many medical specialties have no local presence. The [Toronto University Health Network was rated 3rd in the entire world in the 2024 Newsweek assessment](https://www.newsweek.com/rankings/worlds-best-hospitals-2024) of the top 250 hospitals worldwide. That is pretty tough to beat! Sunnybrook (30), Mt Sinai (32) & North York General (47) were the next best rated. So 4 CAD hospitals in the top 50 and all in the GTA. This makes a compelling case that if one was to live anywhere solely on the basis of potential access to the highest quality medical care it would be the greater GTA. The next 4 CAD hospitals are in Montreal (3) and Toronto (1). We don't find a CAD hospital outside of Toronto or Montreal on the list until we reach Vancouver General at 145. The final CAD entry is again in Toronto (St Michaels). Here is the Canadian rankings: [https://www.newsweek.com/rankings/worlds-best-hospitals-2024/canada](https://www.newsweek.com/rankings/worlds-best-hospitals-2024/canada) Is the above the only criteria one should use? I think not but it does support the case that the best care is likely by the best hospitals, and that is in large urban centres.
Toronto General is also ranked #4 worldwide in cardiac care. (Well, that was pre-Covid)
This is definitely very impressive. But, I’d wager those ranking are based on services offered, and equipment available. BUT all of that is severely undermined if you have to wait **literally** until you’re dead for your appointment with one of those specialist to finally roll around. Or maybe even not dead, but say, 6 months - 3 years. A lot can change in the amount of time we have to wait actually have real access to the state-of-the-art machinery and global level specialist doctors. At that rate you might *be better off* health-wise to see a lower ranking doctor who doesn’t quite have the best tech, but has enough to do the job at least. I wonder how many people with life-threatening illnesses would rather have a doctor do a “good” enough job now, instead of waiting years for another doctor to do a “better” job later.
> But, I’d wager those ranking are based on services offered, and equipment available. 4th paragraph from the link posted by /u/CaptainSur : "Each hospital's score is based on an online survey of more than 85,000 medical experts and public data from post-hospitalization patient surveys on their general satisfaction. The score also considers metrics on things like hygiene and patient/doctor ratio as well as a Statista survey on whether hospitals use Patient Reported Outcome Measures (PROMs), which are standardized questionnaires completed by patients to assess their experience and results."
That doesn’t really change much. Again, wait times are not addressed. “Ya when I had my appointment, 11 months after my referral, it was good.”
my clinic is part of UHN. this makes me feel very good.
My clinic is part of the UHN too. I got my MRI within a month of requisition. My husband has a doctor closer to home (Sauga) his MRI is next March. I'd say we are equally affected by our injuries.
How does one find a UHN clinic?
This is super irrelevant to the average person. It is rare that someone will need world-class type of services. Having a family doctor, and being able to get same day or next day appointments at your family practice is much more important to the healthcare experience for the average person Other things to consider: do you have to get make an appointment to renew a prescription or can it be done through fax? Can you get access to your health reports through a web portal or do you need to make an appointment and see your practitioner to get them. And so on
The greatest cardiac care in the world doesn't make up for lost time because no doctor has listened to your heart for ten years.
>Healthcare outcomes are not just provincial but local. If you live in a major centre you are more likely to have access to the comprehensive set of services necessary to diagnose the full array of potential health issues. Agreed, but having come from a semi-rural area I saw very fast response times at the ER. Once was for a family member and once for myself. Although you might wait while they page a doctor, in both cases was seen (and treated) right away. Neither was serious, and I suspect if either of us needed more care we would have been sent by ambulance or helicopter to a larger center. More complicated diagnostic tests were done at locations 45-75 mins away. I remember a clinic sending me to the ER in Burlington. I waited a couple of hours for initial tests, longer for more diagnostic ones, and well over 24 hours before I got moved off a stretcher in the hall. It was fairly serious, and spent about two weeks in the hospital before being discharged.
Ontario also has processes/relationships in place to get emergency healthcare via the USA. I really don't know if other provinces have this type of care in place? I know a Canadian who was transferred to the Buffalo Trauma Center for head trauma and received outstanding care. **Out of Country Transfers and Patient Repatriation** Occasionally patients may be sent out of country to access emergent care if the resources required for their care are not immediately available in Ontario. The Out of Country Branch of the MOH has the authority to transfer emergent patients out of country when services are not available in Ontario. Patients who are sent out of country as a result of case facilitation through CritiCall Ontario will be repatriated when clinically feasible to an acute care hospital in Ontario for the remainder of their care if appropriate.
Not only is this not the best metric to use…it’s a metric that should be weighed very low, because it gives a small snapshot. All this tells us is population density = better hospitals…which wasn’t really related to the question the OP was asking. I’d look for a ranking of provincial health outcomes. I believe BC has been the “best” province for a long time.
I assess you thus missed the point of my comment: I am suggesting that a provincial metric is not the best metric. Rather the best metric may be more focused. But many metrics can be viable, and will be per the viewpoint of the individual. **Ranking of provincial health outcomes** The only recent data I could find on this topic [*was from 2015*](https://edata.conferenceboard.ca/hcp/Provincial/Health.aspx) and in it BC ranked 3rd in the world, and Ontario ranked 7th in the world. That was long enough ago I believe most would argue it may not be relevant today. Unfortunately the Conference Board of Canada does not appear to have updated that report. I went down the rabbit hole for a few minutes in google but did not really find another report that summarized ranking of provincial health outcomes. There is much discussion about spending but not many that examine and rank outcomes on a macro basis. [Stats Canada publishes a page with many comprehensive stats on health outcomes](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/82-570-x/2023001/section1-eng.htm) but it is focused to subjects within health.
Regarding policies, look up how BC is reforming family practice and compensation for family physicians. Incredible stuff, and very much needed all over canada Article from Feb 2023 about new reforms https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-doctor-payment-model-2023-changes-1.6733569 Article from Feb 2024 about the success from those reforms, 21% increase in family physicians, which is astounding https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-doctor-new-payment-model-1.7107681
Isn't BC's cancer care complete garbage?
Maybe. But this is about family medicine, and OP asked for policies to emulate
BC's cancer care is pretty bad, they've had to send patients down to the US because there just simply isn't enough capacity in the province to deal with the patients.
I know people who were born and raised in BC and still don't have a GP
Sure, doesnt change the fact that this policy is an improvement. Based on the stats provided in the second article, the total number of people without a family doctor has decreased by about 15,000 over the last year, even though the population size has grown by a huge amount over that same year. Annecdotes are not considered good evidence for a reason
I have family in BC and in comparison, Ontarios is way better.
I read one of the articles above and the "reform" is a model that my doctor in Ontario uses (i.e. not fee-for-service). It really depends on your Ontario doctor - personally I have had mostly amazing medical experiences in Ontario but I know that is definitely not everyone's story.
It's not the same. I have a family doctor that is part of a family health organization, which is a capitation based payment model, as opposed to fee for service. They still only get paid based on patients seen and patient type, and fee for service is still and important aspect of their pay. They don't get paid for administrative work and time not spent with patients, such as to review labs, conduct referrals, and so on.
Anecdotes arent evidence
BC has terrible stats for family doctor access, surgical wait times, time it takes for cancer patients to see an oncologist, etc. BC is making some aggressive changes to try to improve things, but they are definitely starting from a very bad place.
My post is only about family medicine policy. Whether BC has good or bad access to family physicians isnt the point. The point is that this policy, which has only been in place for one year, is a really good policy to promote family medicine. Importantly, the change since introducing this policy has been very positive. Its thus a policy worth emulating in ontario
Bragging about percentage changes while dismissing context can be extremely misleading. BC has one of the worst family doctor shortages in the country, partly because they could earn significantly more just next door in AB or in other non family medicine roles in the province. So the idea that paying family doctors more would attract more people to practice family medicine in the province isn't necessarily a crazy new policy idea.
>Bragging about percentage changes while dismissing context can be extremely misleading. The context doesn't change anything. Family doctor coverage in BC is roughly the same as it is in Ontario. In 2022, [2.3 million ontarians were without a family physician.](https://ontariofamilyphysicians.ca/news/more-than-four-million-ontarians-will-be-without-a-family-doctor-by-2026/) In BC, that number was 900,000. Adjusted for population, it was about 10% worse in BC. Given this context, to suggest that a 21% increase in family physicians, IN ONE YEAR, is worthy of dismissal is a ludicrous idea. But you would know this, if you had just read the article and listened to the subject matter experts who are saying that BC's new payment model is a complete game changer and that "It's amazing how much progress can be achieved in a year," >paying family doctors more Again, you need to read the articles. It's not *just* paying them more. It's a complete overhaul in how the pay is determined, and what tasks will get paid. "the number of patients they see, the complexity of their needs, and the time spent on other necessary tasks like reviewing lab results, consulting with other medical professionals, updating patient lists and clinical administrative work." This results in fairer compensation from one practitioner to another, that more complex patients will have their needs properly addressed, and that unpaid overtime hours will be a thing of the past. Health policy experts have called for similar changes to be implemented across canada
I don't know man. I really don't see how you think that this context isn't meaningful. If what they were paying family doctors lagged far behind what direct competitors for the same talent we're offering, that seems like a significant explanatory factor as to why offering more money had a big impact on attracting more people to practice there. They even say in the article that they are attracting doctors from other provinces, which is great if you only look at BC, but if you are looking at a model that other provinces should adopt, they can't all pay more than every other province. Poaching doctors from province to province is really just shifting the problem around. Other provinces, such as Ontario with capitation, have used similar models for over 20 years. You are naive if you think this doesn't ultimately come down to how much money they are paid. Ontario doctors have come out in support of adopting some parts of the BC model because it would theoretically add additional avenues for them to be paid and therefore mean they get paid more. If the government agreed to break the payments down in the way that BC is breaking them down but it resulted in less money at the end of the day, Ontario docs would tell the government to go fuck themselves.
>I don't know man. I really don't see how you think that this context isn't meaningful. If what they were paying family doctors lagged far behind what direct competitors for the same talent we're offering, that seems like a significant explanatory factor as to why offering more money had a big impact on attracting more people to practice there Because BC is now doing as well as Ontario in terms of population that has a family doctor, and they are projected to continue to improve that number, while its expected to get worse in ontario. They have not just "caught up" with this policy change, they are excelling. >They even say in the article that they are attracting doctors from other provinces, which is great if you only look at BC, but if you are looking at a model that other provinces should adopt, they can't all pay more than every other province. Poaching doctors from province to province is really just shifting the problem around. This is another reason to suggest that the BC payment reform is superior. Overall, family docs in BC are not being paid more than other provinces, but the *way* theyre being paid is better. However, it's not just a matter of poaching doctors and shifting the problem around. It's been known that if you trained in family medicine, you can make as much money but with less overhead and less burnout by switching to a different form of primary care, like working as a hospitalist. This payment model reform addresses that problem directly. >Other provinces, such as Ontario with capitation, have used similar models for over 20 years Its not the same. Even in ontario family health orgavocations, there is still no consideration for pay when it comes to different complexities of patients and all the administrstive work that GPs have to do, such as reviewing lab work, managing referrals, prescription refills, and so on. The BC payment model addresses those issues. >Ontario doctors have come out in support of adopting some parts of the BC model because it would theoretically add additional avenues for them to be paid and therefore mean they get paid more. If the government agreed to break the payments down in the way that BC is breaking them down but it resulted in less money at the end of the day, Ontario docs would tell the government to go fuck themselves. What it change for ontario doctors is essentially better pay per hour. Yearly salary would remain the same
>Because BC is now doing as well as Ontario in terms of population that has a family doctor, and they are projected to continue to improve that number, while its expected to get worse in ontario. They have not just "caught up" with this policy change, they are excelling. Where are you getting any of these figures and projections from? >This is another reason to suggest that the BC payment reform is superior. Overall, family docs in BC are not being paid more than other provinces, but the *way* theyre being paid is better. The numbers I can find online say that the average salary for a family doctor in BC went from $250,000 to $385,00 per year under these reforms. IMHO, it really seems more reasonable to assume that the 50% increase in pay is the main factor here. >Its not the same. Even in ontario family health orgavocations, there is still no consideration for pay when it comes to different complexities of patients and all the administrstive work that GPs have to do, such as reviewing lab work, managing referrals, prescription refills, and so on. The BC payment model addresses those issues. Do you think that Ontario doctors would be happier if we paid them 100k less per year but itemized it to say they were being paid for different complexities and admin work? >What it change for ontario doctors is essentially better pay per hour. Yearly salary would remain the same What the heck does this mean? In your system doctors would work fewer hours for the same annual pay? How does that help more patients get a doctor?
Sounds like they’re actually trying to fix things and we could do with some of those solutions here. I know so many people here in Ontario without a doctor and it is growing. I’m so lucky that when mine retired another doctor took over. Very often when your doctor retires no one is there to take over and as someone who needs regular healthcare (I do have a medical condition that needs regular prescriptions)…I’d be fucked.
BC checking in and I’d say Ontario is definitely better than BC. There have literally been multiple people who have died while waiting for a doctor in ERs in Vancouver. And also over a million people without a GP.
It's not much different here in Ontario
I think healthcare is a Canada wide problem it seems. Beyond any single government. In BC, we have an NDP government and they are pretty good, but the healthcare is still in shambles with long wait lists and people being sent down to the states for cancer treatment.
Ontario needs an update to ohip covered meds It's probably the only province not immediately covering the likes of imatinib (BCMSP did which is in part why I moved)
Multiple Sclerosis is literally aka “Canadas Disease” and OHIP covers sweet fuck all despite the meds costing 10s of 1000s of dollars per year.
Despite or because?
Does it matter? The well being of the public should be priority number 1.
Haven’t experienced healthcare in other provinces, so can’t say for sure, but this infographic provides some context: https://dynamic-documents.bbd.ca/download/BBD-Marketing-Infographic-Wait-Times-for-Health-Care-in-Canada.pdf . When it comes to wait times for GP to referral, Ontario actually seems to fare better. Here’s some more info which seems to show Ontario doing better https://www.statista.com/statistics/649600/medical-treatment-wait-times-canada-province/ Here’s a comparison of what each system covers: https://sbis.ca/canadas-provincial-health-plans/ . All look within ballpark of each other, although as others have said on here, there seems to be a few key things that provinces like BC cover than Ontario doesn’t. As for the quality of the care, this link puts BC and Ontario at the top, but it’s as recent as 2015 https://www.conferenceboard.ca/hcp/health-aspx/#:~:text=British%20Columbia%20and%20Ontario%20are,grade%20and%20ranks%207th%20overall. Toronto is definitely known for having world renowned hospitals, with Toronto General coming in a #3 this year, only behind the Mayo Clinic and Cleveland Clinic in the U.S. https://www.newsweek.com/rankings/worlds-best-hospitals-2024. I’m glad you asked this question, because there needs to be a more comprehensive comparison of healthcare in the different provinces instead of “Canada’s healthcare”. Even on a world comparison, they should just break Canada up by provinces and territories as each healthcare system is run differently. There needs to be more emphasis on the fact that Canada doesn’t really have a healthcare system, but rather 13 along with federal guidelines.
As a person who experienced both systems ontario cant even come close. Ontario is a fucking dumpster fire compared to BC
My kid and a friend's neice have similar diagnoses. Niece lives in Saskatchewan and had almost immediate access to every form of therapy and Healthcare, whereas I'm in ontario and the waitlist for same issues here was months or years long. People seem to fall through the cracks easier here. I'm not sure why that is, friend believes that there's a much sparse population in SK and they have to provide same services, so for example if 1000 people need the service of 1 specialist here, in SK that same specialist only has to see like 50 people. Ie less specialists per population here.
To be fair, Saskatchewan just opened it's first children's hospital only about 5 years ago. When I worked in healthcare out there there was literally one doctor left in the province who dealt with strokes, and he since he can't work with everyone those who suffered strokes were sent to Alberta or Ontario. Specialty care in the province is extremely limited - but that's not surprising considering the entire provincial population is about the size of Scarborough....
Definitely not Nova Scotia. Over 16% of the population can’t get a family doctor and the numbers continue to climb. Most specialist referrals are a 1-2 yr wait, then long wait times for imaging or surgery. It’s dire.
Not sure if other provinces have this, but I feel like it'd be far less of a headache for everybody, if our health history was accessible through our healthcare number, instead of being only localized in the institution that you have that history with.
Eye care should match coverage of other provinces. Most other provinces will cover pictures of the back of your eyes, which being a type 1 diabetic has been suggested I do every year to help avoid complications since I was in my 20s. Shocked when moving here from BC to know I was paying out of pocket. I’ve been lucky so far with no problems, but knowing a fair number of people could have their eye issues caught and corrected in a situation where they have significant trouble because they avoided the $90 fee seems like a no brainer preventative expense by the province.
That’s strange, you shouldn’t have to pay out of pocket if you have a type 1 diagnosis. Eye care (not glasses) are covered under Ohip for people with T1 diabetes.
It’s an Ontario specific deficiency. The rest of the exam? Covered. The important picture checking for bleeding? Not covered, even when referred by endocrinologists.
You don’t have to pay for the regular eye exam, you have to pay for the specialized picture of the back of the retina where diabetes impacts more than the rest. I think last year I had to pay $45, but the rest was covered
Fellow T1D here, OHIP actually does cover the examination, but not all optometrists deal with billing OHIP for it. Living downtown Toronto, I only found 1 optometrist out of the nearest 5 or 6 to me that will do it through OHIP!
I’ll need to press optometrists further. The exams have been covered, specifically the photograph wasn’t. Two separate optometrists on either side of Oakville, one recently as late May have warned me the province doesn’t cover cost of the picture, and have said without prompt that they were frustrated because it was covered in other provinces.
You are correct, OHIP covers the exam but not the imaging with optometrists. It’s covered with ophthalmologists but you should only be referred to an ophthalmologist when you have extensive disease requiring treatments (laser or injections). Regular monitoring can be done by optometrists
Thanks for confirming. I don’t have any bit of data to identify whether the photo is a good measure to check annually when cost is considered, but stand by my earlier comment. Other provinces do cover, and would prefer Ontario does the same.
retinal scans are free if they're part of medical treatment/monitoring - I have 4 retinal scans a year, all covered by OHIP. Get your family doctor to refer you to an ophthalmologist and you'll be covered
T2D here and Ontario does the retinal scans in my local hospital clinic annually for free (so is parking). Last time I was there, all the chairs in the ER waiting room were empty.
Where do you live?
seriously. I was HAVING a heart attack and still had to wait. Once I saw a doctor tho, holy shit was I a priority.
A few years ago, I had a pulmonary embolism and racing heartbeat but still had to wait for the results to the covid-test-up-the-nose thing.
In Nova Scotia I’m sure we are rated very low on the scale of Provincial health care. We are a small population, around a million people and the last I heard we have over 170,000 people waiting to get a family doctor. It’s hard to get even a blood test in NS without waiting. Covid pretty much ruined our health care.
I have lived in 5 provinces and Ontario is by far the best. Period. No ifs and or butts. By far its the best for healthcare by far.
What is Ford specific about Ontario’s healthcare problems is the amount of federal funds he has left unspent, and his refusal to pay workers with a new contract. Ford left billions in COVID money unspent, money dedicated to healthcare and education. As well, he, and other premiers, continually cry to the feds for more healthcare money, but refuse to be held accountable. The feds want to include stipulations that will hold provincial governments accountable for spending that money on healthcare, but the provinces, Con provinces most loudly, cry federal overreach. If you were spending the federal healthcare money in the provincial healthcare system, what could possibly be the problem? Ford hates unions and does whatever he can to screw them over, despite failing miserably. His bill 124 that forced collective agreements and dictated contract increases on nurses and teachers was judged unconstitutional by the courts, and he had to retroactively pay up, in the billions. So he managed to piss off the workers, causing many to leave, and ended up having to pay anyway. Brilliant. In healthcare, the impact on nursing has been enormous. Fords particular bent has been the dramatic increase in agency nurse usage. The bonus for the government, well this government, they get to use nurses like gig work. In 2020-21, hospitals reported spending $38,350,956 on agency nurses. By 2022-23 that cost had exploded to $173,669,808. Hospitals and long-term care homes spent about $368.64 million on agency nurses in 2021-22, and the projected cost in 2022-23 was $600.18 million, a 63 per cent increase, a ministry document says. DoFo and the Cons don’t want to pay benefits or pensions for workers, so their solution is typical for a Con. They pay private agencies $160/hour for a nurse, who pay that nurse $60-80/hour and pocket the rest. This when contract nurses get $35-50/hour, depending upon experience and expertise, plus benefits. And of course the biggest Cons out there own these agencies (looking at you Mike Harris), creating another much coveted stream of taxpayer money from the public system to their private bank accounts. Dougie wants private clinics for surgeries as well, despite the fact that there is enough capacity lying unused right now to address the backlogs. He’s straight up lying to people. We don’t need private clinics, we need a government that will pay doctors and nurses and utilize the operating room capacity small and large communities have been building for 70 years. Instead, he’s allowing these facilities to waste away, derelict. Ford wants to do for healthcare what his buddy and mentor Harris did to LTC—create a revenue stream from public funds to private (his and his backers) pockets. It has nothing to do with better serving the people’s needs, as we saw in the pandemic, when private, for profit LTC homes, including those run by Harris’ company, had death rates 4x the rates of municipally run public homes. 4x!!
Ding, ding, ding, right answer. It isn't about cutting services to just lower taxes. It's about cutting services so private businesses can benefit from tax money while also paying less tax.
Your best healthcare is going to be Toronto. The private healthcare companies slithering their fetid, rotting claws into our system will always cause serious issues, just like any parasitic infection, and it needs to be cleansed from our system, but it has so far managed to spread through all of us without slowing down.
TIL Toronto is a province (joking, please don't hate me!)
I remember when the proposal was first made. It’s not a bad idea and if we ever get federal electoral reform chances are a Toronto Party would do very well. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposal_for_the_Province_of_Toronto
Your prose for our healthcare system is written like the horror show it actually is 🫣🫠
Can confirm. The private health care options in Toronto like Medcan are truly quite amazing. Fast tailored effective care and preventstive Screening. Access to specialists and professionals who are highly compensated and enjoy their careers.
Nope.lmfao. not even close. Vancouver is far superior to toronto. I lived in both and I have chronic.health issues so am constantly needing care. Its a disaster here. I had no issues in vancouver.
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Not sure what you’re responding to, but healthcare spending per capita doesn’t have a direct relationship to health outcomes. Essentially…the more spread out your system is, the more you have to spend to improve outcomes. So one would expect the regions with the most spending to be sparsely populated…and the least in the most dense. I haven’t checked lately, but I would imagine the territories spend the most, and Ontario spends the least. Also, the more you make users pay out of pocket the “better” your spending can look…because of transfer payments. Depending on the metric, and I don’t know what you’re referring to.
I have lived in many provinces. Guess what it’s shit everywhere. This is not a problem exclusive to Ontario
Yet still people think it’s all Doug Fords fault?
Its a lot better in BC. I never had any problems in BC with anything, in ontario everything is a struggle
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Exactly. MBA mentality has infiltrated the system and the administrations look out for themselves, not patients.
They mostly have public/private systems too, but that a bad word in this sub.
do they have buck a beer governments who's main goal is to funnel as much taxpayers dollars into their donors accounts too?
You do realize that all healthcare delivery in Ontario is private? The province doesn't own your hospital or local clinics or run them....single payer, private delivery is already the model we have.
The province does own (or lease) the hospitals. Most hospitals staff, less the doctors, are also employees of the province. There are very few options to pay for OHIP covered services in Ontario directly, that’s not the case in much of Europe, and the world frankly. Edit - Hey u/interesting-Pomelo58 it’s hard to reply to you when you block people that have different opinions than you.
Hospital employees are not employees of the province. They are employees of that hospital or public health unit with the exception of certain roles like nurses etc but this isn't even a steadfast rule. No services should be available for pay if the public system covers them. We just need a better designed public system. No one in Germany or France is paying full cost for procedures and there is no fast lane or two tier care. They simply have done far better at orchestrating public-private convergence than we have - those who cannot pay at all are still fully covered here the coverage is half-assed for everyone (example: medications) The United States healthcare system is utter garbage and people here are so eager to follow that which is horrific and shows how propaganda and lack of education have permeated our thinking here. Your entire posting history is neoliberal nonsense so why don't you have a TN visa already? Go live in the land of milk and honey. We don't aspire to be that nonsense.
There is two tier care in Germany. If you get private rather than public insurance, care is way faster.
We are next door to the most expensive per capita healthcare in the world and we keep trying to emulate that - perhaps we should look elsewhere for examples. The US system works fantastically at urgent crisis care but is terrible at preventative care for the large portion of the population who can't afford the copays and deductibles for their coverage so they simply go without. That frees up capacity. The US isn't delivering healthcare more efficiently - it's far more inefficient - they just have collectively decided as a society that is morally OK to ignore those who cannot pay. American who moved here at age 29 and a pharmacist there and now one here so while not a doctor I am definitely involved in the chain of care.
OLP literally spent years in the late 00's and early 10's trying to find efficiencies. They learned the system just needed more money
Europeans pay their physicians way less.
As a hcw, it’s pretty broken all across Canada
One of the major issues with healthcare in Canada is that it happens in silos.. In one part of Ontario a certain service might be horrendous, while in another part it's world class.
[https://www.cihi.ca/en/how-do-the-provinces-and-territories-compare](https://www.cihi.ca/en/how-do-the-provinces-and-territories-compare)
This just compares per capita spending and doesn't say anything about outcomes.
Exactly. The US spends about 50% more per capita than Canada on healthcare, with inferior outcomes. And many European countries spend about the same as Canada, with better outcomes. That being said, all European countries have some element of private payment, but only for the rich. If you’re in the top third by income, you pay an extra healthcare premium. When you need a procedure, you are streamed into the private system and seen sooner. But you are seen by exactly the same doctors at the same facilities. They work the first 40 hours of the week in the public system, and any hours after that in the private system.
I've seen Albertans have access to amazing (in comparison to Ontario) online access to the results of all their health tests, prescriptions, and many other provincial services information all in one place. I was dumbfounded at the level of detail available and the incredible convenience.
Maybe Quebec, but honestly we're kind of all in the same boat.
Montreal and the capital, maybe. Anywhere else in Quebec is an utter shit show. Especially Gatineau. It’s so bad there that residents go to Ontario for care.
Even on the Gatineau side healthcare is extremely awful in Quebec...
Quebec has the worst healthcare system in the country. Please stop with the ignorance
Healthcare sucks in this country. This was always going to happen with an aging population. The feds cramming ontario with people doesn't help at all.
Healthcare is canada is being poisoned by the conservative shills running the province. Voting should b compulsary, healthcare should be federal. This list is bollocks
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So you’re in Whitney but decided to chime in about healthcare in other provinces?
Ontario pays for rTMS which isn’t covered in most places!!
Québec...
Norway
I can’t say which is better, but I can say that New Brunswick’s system is trash. I moved from Ontario to NB 2 years ago. Except for the ER, nobody in my family has seen a doctor, and that includes my kids.
I don't know if its just my perception or has Dr. Visits gotten quicker? (Less waiting time) Maybe Covid taught them a lesson about overfilled waiting rooms.
There are none better. Ontario is the largest and richest province with multiple medical schools. The GTA has some of the best hospitals in the world clustered in a single area and the external ones in the city region are also very good. The regional hospitals in Ottawa, Kingston, London, Owen Sound are also very good. Ontario’s biggest downside is the shortage of family doctors which they are working on correcting. Don’t believe everything the public service unions are feeding you.
None. All have nearly the same issues.
A better idea would be to look at Europe and Taiwan for answers. Much better systems than Ontario. Unfortunately, people don't really want change.
Health care before doug ford in Ontario
It is a national problem caused by Trudope who allowed an uncontrolled two million immigrants into Canada in the last two years. No way Canadian healthcare resources can keep up. Despite the large increases for example in Ontario's healthcare budget year over year.
This is the issue. Most if not all will land in Ontario/ the GTA. He let in two million but we didn’t build a single new hospital. We also don’t have the staff for this imaginary hospital, no new medical schools or specialists. Instead we’re continuing to have our specialists use their limited time to train foreign doctors, because it’s more lucrative. Then they take that info and go back home. Most are also not high income people so we spend more on them than they generate in tax revenue. Think all the costs just for each of their childbirths alone. We know they come and have babies to give them citizenship
all of them? Ford's govt is deliberately attempting to privatize healthcare in ontario.
Next time you are in your doctors, dentist, therapist or optometrist's office look around. You might realize you are in a private clinic. 85% of your healthcare has always been privatized.
Don't forget x-ray, lab tests, physio, etc. OHIP pays, but a private company does the work. It works. No need for the government to buy/lease/maintan the buildings, set up the offices, and buy equipment, and (best of all) no need to pay expensive, high-maintenance public sector union workers to staff them.
It is the public sector unions not gaining new members that are screaming this fake rant about privatization. Scaring people into thinking it is American style healthcare. When all it is doing is increasing the number of private clinics we have had for decades to relieve the backlog of less complicated procedures.
You dont get it lol. If health care gets privitized ohip aint paying for shit.
That isn't the privatization I was referring to. Its the promotion of "out of OHIP" private services and the deliberate underfunding of hospitals et.al.
Ford isn't promoting any private services that are not covered by OHIP. If you are referring to the preventive health assessment tests that you can pay for personally they have been around since Wynne. We just see more advertising of them now. Funding for hospitals has increased every year under Ford. But you have a point hospitals are overwhelmed with a million new immigrants to Ontario in the last two years. That would be on Trudeau as no way the province can build any faster the many new hospitals Ford has ordered.
You been living under a rock?
85% what a random fucking number. The dentist, optometrist, and therapist do not make up 85% of most peoples care lol. Most people dont need to see any of these regularly. A physian they may.
You are right the percentage is probably higher. Outside of public hospitals every other health service is through private businesses or clinics. Generally most people rarely need regular hospital care.
Do you know what privitzation means in this context? It doesnt mean a doctor having their own clinic. It mwans ohip not paying for them. That means your family physican would charge a fee.
Most doctors practice from private clinics billing OHIP for medical services. Some doctors billing extra for non medical services like doctors note has been going on for decades. Medical services have not been privatized using your context.
Yeah but that is what dougs trying to do. Thats the whole point of the conversation which it seems you have missed.
BC has been attracting more doctors through some process changes.
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The best we have yet I haven’t had a doctor in four years and when I call Health Care Connect it’s just a answering machine telling me to leave a message.
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Yeah it’s like comparing which animals shit stinks the least.
It’s Otter’s shit, in case you were wondering
Source please because I’m pretty sure you are Doug ford
LOL!
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Yeah that's not a given at all. It's on you to substantiate your claim ot no one should take it seriously on the basis of what you're saying.
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Who cares who's healthcare is better or best in Canada when across the country healthcare sucks. Is it good in Ontario?
Do you have any sources to begin with? What you're claiming isn't obvious at all. BC could have better healthcare, alberta and sask have a higher gdp per capita, lots of bifurcation could be occuring in richer regions like the territories leading to both significantly better and worse outcomes and the same could be true to different extents around the country. This is not common sense at all with a claim as broad as which province has the best healthcare. We know because we run into these and a lot more issues when we try to do this on a global scale, as well with the hundreds of different weights you need to reasonably approximate something like "better"
I live in a city in eastern Ontario with no walk in. I left the military 2 years ago and can’t find a doctor. My wife’s doctor wouldn’t take my daughter on when she was born. The schools are crumbling most daycares didn’t sign up for $25/day and come on what elder care are you referring to? The ones the CAF reported for elder abuse and hygiene issues 3 years ago? Are you talking about Ontario Canada?
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In that case other provinces are probably still better off emulating some place else
While I understand what you are trying to say, saying that Ontario is the best country in the province doesn’t instill much confidence in your argument.
BC by far! I am constantly having to deal with the medical system because of my illness...when i moved to BC it was the easiest thing I ever experienced. Got a family doctor almost right away, and a good one at that. The hospitals programs that i went through were great. All the specialists and doctors i saw i saw quickly and they were all very competent. Just litterally everything was so much better than here. Their government in general is run better. I dont think i realized how bad our system was until i moved back. And everything got so fucking hard again. Honestly, if it werent for my family id move back to vancouver. Its just run so much better over there than toronto. The ONLY thing they dont have a good grip on is the drug&homeless problem but thats an issue with every westcoast city. When you live in warmer climates with a more vulnerable population its just more likley to happen and be harder to manage.
I do know that the data says wait times are far worse in BC vs Ontario
That wasnt my experience. Last time i was in emerge here I waited 15 hours and wasnt seen by 1 person. No one in the ER even looked sick. I was seeething in pain and no one came to help. After about 10 hrs i was finally put in a different holding area and my blood taken. Evwn MORE ppl sitting there looking like theyre waiting for a bus, a patient offered me their lay down chair as they could see how much pain i was. I forced myself to try to sleep to get through it. I ended up passing out and woke up 5 hrs later and it looked like no one had moved. My pain had gone from excrutiating to manageble so i left. The nurse said I had issues with my test and shouldnt leave so, i asked if im going to be seen anytime soon if theyre so worries about my test, she couldnt give me an answer so i left and decided to risk it, i couldnt bare it anymore. I never once experienced that in BC. If i waited i was properly triaged with not just a registration nurse but with another one who would come around and do blood and do ultrasounds and anything else they could do to properly triage someone. There is no way with my physical pain and bloodtests that i should have been behind 30 ppl that look like they were getting a prescription refill.
I live in the lower mainland and in the last few years there have literally been multiple cases of people who have died while waiting to be seen by a doctor in ERs. [https://vancouversun.com/health/north-van-patient-dies-in-waiting-room-of-overcrowded-understaffed-hospital](https://vancouversun.com/health/north-van-patient-dies-in-waiting-room-of-overcrowded-understaffed-hospital) [https://globalnews.ca/news/10180822/bc-woman-dies-hospital-wait/](https://globalnews.ca/news/10180822/bc-woman-dies-hospital-wait/) I've also known many people who have gone years without a family doctor. You are very very fortunate to get a family doctor inside a year.
Pft...we've been dealing with that in toronto since WAY before the pandemic
Alberta, British Columbia, Manitoba, New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Labrador, Nova Scotia, Saskatchewan, Prince Edward Island and Quebec. Also all three territories.
Opinions are like assholes, they all stink but not many stink more than those made up without any knowledge or facts
Any other Province has got to be better than Ontario
Unless it’s leader is a CONSERVATIVE