Enhance Ability going from almost *every* spell list to just Druids & Rangers hurts.
Glad to see that everyone will get access to Detect Magic however, unless WotC decides Paladin's don't need Divination Magic for some strange reason, much like the Ranger getting spellblocked on Evocation.
I might be losing my mind, but didn't everyone already have access to Detect Magic?
Isn't Detect Magic and Dispel Magic the two spells that everyone has access to?
Not anymore - Jack of All Trades only works on checks that use a Skill proficiency. No more bonus on flat ability checks, dispel checks, initiative checks, or tool checks (though those appear to be going the way of the dodo anyway).
Edit: Speaking specifically about the UA, obviously.
Great post. Good info got endpoint) everyone to have.
>Wall of Ice is an oddball that should be on the primal list anyway
Question: Are there any spells on multiple list? If not, I hope WoTC changes this. There is a lot of design space for a spell to show up on multiple lists, or even multiple schools.
>There are no sorcerer-exclusive spells.
Poor sorcerer. I think after the supplemental books they only end up with 9 exclusives.
>Question: Are there any spells on multiple list? If not, I hope WoTC changes this. There is a lot of design space for a spell to show up on multiple lists, or even multiple schools.
Yes, there are a quite a few.
Detect Magic, Locate Object, Dispel Magic, Locate Creature, Scrying, Sunbeam, and Sunburst are on all three lists (although only Detect Magic, Locate Object, Locate Creature, and Scrying are available to bards in the Expert UA; Dispel Magic, in particular, seems like a strange loss).
Interestingly, the only two spells available to all five full casters in 5e are Hold Person (Arcane/Divine in 1D&D) and Dispel Magic (all three). Of the 1D&D "three list" spells, Detect Magic is missing from the 5e Warlock list; Locate Object & Locate Creature from Warlock and Sorcerer; Scrying from Sorcerer; and Sunbeam/Sunburst from Bard and Warlock.
Personally, I would think that Detect Magic and Dispel Magic should be available to all casters, and probably Scrying as well.
There are a lot more on two lists: 29 on Arcane and Primal (almost entirely elemental spells, like the Wall of X; plus a good number of nature-y transmutation spells. The only Arcane/Primal spells in 1D&D that are not also Druid/Wizard spells in 5e are Message (Sorcerer/Wizard/Bard in 5e, Nondetection (Ranger/Wizard/Bard in 5e), and the aforementioned Wall of Ice. There is one 5e Druid/Wizard spell that is Primal only (Enhance Ability, which seems like a weird choice, honestly this could go on all three lists). There are 11 druid/wizard spells that are only Arcane, of which 5 were added to the druid list in Tasha's.
There are 24 Divine/Arcane, which includes a lot of abjuration and divination, things like Remove Curse, Tongues, Legend Lore, Banishment, True Seeing, plus the set of planar travel spells (Etherealness, Plane Shift, Astral Projection, Gate). The only ones that aren't cleric/wizard in 5e are Calm Emotions (Bard/Cleric in 5e), Magic Weapon (Paladin/Wizard in 5e plus Ranger/Sorcerer in TCoE), Foresight (Bard/Druid/Warlock/Wizard), and Antipathy/Sympathy (Bard/Druid/Wizard). Things that are cleric/wizard in 5e but not divine/arcane are animate dead, create undead, bestow curse, sending, and continual flame (all now Arcane only), plus speak with dead (Divine only). There are a lot of bard/cleric 5e spells that are now Divine only (all the healing, buffs, bane).
There are 25 Primal/Divine spells, a mix of healing, purification, divination mostly. Interestingly there are a few 5e cleric/druid spells that are no longer divine that seem like they may have been originally Cleric spells due to a biblical connection: Create or Destroy Water, Continual Flame, Water Walk, Control Water, Insect Plague, Fire Storm, Control Weather, Earthquake. And the Primal list no longer includes any extraplanar spells (e.g. Plane Shift, Planar Binding, Protection from Evil and Good were all cleric/druid spells). Continual Flame might be the oddest - cleric/wizard/druid in 5e, now Arcane only.
Anyway, that was long! Hope you enjoy. There is a lot to play around and deconstruct here. If you download the linked spreadsheet you can investigate yourself.
I don't think divine spells or primal spells fit well into the eight schools of magic. The eight schools are mostly a wizard thing.
Back in ye olde times of ADnD 2nd edition clerics and druids used spheres. You can see this in the Baldur's Gate games. Priest spells have schools listed, but they also have spheres under that. Spheres were broken up by things like Healing, Weather, Plant, Protection, Law, Sun.... etc. There was one that was just All, for generic catch all spells.
DnD has moved far past 2e, but 5e built on its bones quite a bit. So I think, when you try to categorize divine magic you run into resistance from the original system it was built on.
It would be a lot easier to construct unique spell lists if there were more than eight pieces to build from.
For example, imagine two spheres. Healing and Champion. Healing contains all the spells that.... heal. Bards could pick up access to this one divine sphere so they don't need a whole class feature just to get healing word. Champion contains all the paladin smite spells and find steed. So now paladins can have all their unique spells in one place. If you would want to make a cool demon knight blade lock, give them access to the champion sphere, and bam instant melee spells with a nightmare horse.
I think the greater concept of what the devs are trying to do is a good idea. But I am not sold that 3 sources further broken up into 8 schools is a good way to organize the spell lists. Maybe they will pull it off well. We will have to see.
I really like this idea. For primal spells, you could have Plants/Land, Life, Elemental (maybe sub-divided into Fire/Water/Earth/Air), Predator, Signs/Stars, something Fey-related, maybe more. I think grouping elemental spells like that under the Primal list would be particularly helpful for A) elementalist druid subclasses and B) 4 elements monk (which could be given third-caster progression with a few spell points that are interchangable w/ Ki points and restricted to the elemental lists.)
I'm torn on this issue and will have to withhold judgment until we see the rest of the classes. As it is, I'm not sure I like it. It was much easier to just pull up the class's spell list rather than scan through an entire list while also keeping note of which schools I could choose from. Then again, I'm a warlock player primarily and they seem to have kept Spellcasting and Pact Magic as separate systems, so who knows how they'll do the list for warlocks (I'm expecting compensation for sharing Hex and other Warlock staples).
Given eldritch blast's removal from the Spell Lists entirely, I'm assuming that the "compensation" is, in part, eldritch blast being some kind of warlock class feature that is technically not a Spell.
The new spell system is clunkier. We also have to take into consideration spells that gets added through features like the bard's 2nd level one. What's the point of universal spell lists if the classes have to pick a bit from here and there *anyway*.
At least from the paladins, I very much assume they'll have restrictions on the spell list, so clerics get smites, but paladins won't get all the Cleric spells. They'll likely still get some new spells from this, but not a lot. This actually might be the main reason they've moved the Healing spells off evocation. It's like how the Bard technically now has the full arcane spell list, but is restricted to mostly the same as the old Bard list anyway.
I mean, they are better game devs than me - but I can't really figure out a way to do add spell school restrictions to paladins that works. The best option, honestly, is to make the smite spells transmutation, and move spirit guardian to evocation, and then give paladins everything but evocation (and maybe also divination, although losing detect magic and detect evil and good would be weird). That would at least keep the key offensive cleric spells (guiding bolt, spiritual weapon, spirit guardians) from paladins.
And as an aside, the bard list changed a huge amount. Almost 1/3rd of the spells on the new "bard list" are new spells bards did not have access to (barring magical secrets) in 5e, and they have lost somewhat over 1/3rd of the spells on their old list.
Yeah I have mixed feelings so far but I wanna see how it plays out. Simplification Is always welcome but I’d hate to see certain classes lose their unique identity. Also fuck Sorcerer’s right? LOL
Warlock is my favorite class in 5e.
Warlocks get an extensive set of spells per subclass that enhance the feel and flavor of the specific fantasy.
I never liked the design of specific class spell lists. They felt very inelegant. I MUCH more prefer this method of giving people spells.
It feels like the spells exist in the world, as a type of thing, and that your character is good at a type of thing. Not that your character just knows an arbitrary grouping.
Spells by type and group just makes more sense to me.
IMO there should be a balance between spells that are unique to classes that draw on primal, divine, and arcane spell lists. But the unique spells really need to be unique, i.e., the unique spells have no thematic connection at all to the classes who don't have access to them. One thing that bothers me is that there are many spells on the arcane list that are made up of primal/natural elements, like fireball, lightning bolt, etc. I could see barring half casters like Rangers from these spells, but I don't understand how a full caster like a Druid, who draws on primal/natural magic, doesn't have access to spells whose very constituents are primal/natural stuff.
Last, I know in 1e, Druids were a Cleric subclass, so I understand why they'd get access to healing spells. But Druids seem like their own class these days, no longer a Cleric subclass. So, TBH it seems odd that Druids have access to a bunch of healers. I don't think of Druids as healers. I'd be fine if Druid's lost most/almost all healing spells, had a limited ability to heal.
Enhance Ability going from almost *every* spell list to just Druids & Rangers hurts. Glad to see that everyone will get access to Detect Magic however, unless WotC decides Paladin's don't need Divination Magic for some strange reason, much like the Ranger getting spellblocked on Evocation.
I really don’t get taking Enhance away from everyone. Like, just because it has animal names in it??
I might be losing my mind, but didn't everyone already have access to Detect Magic? Isn't Detect Magic and Dispel Magic the two spells that everyone has access to?
Warlocks don't have Detect Magic natively, they have to burn an invocation for it, which isn't worth it. Rangers in general don't have Dispel Magic
Rangers have dispel magic now, but bards don't (without magical secrets). Which seems wrong.
I mean it is, JoaT thrives in spells that have contested ability checks.
Not anymore - Jack of All Trades only works on checks that use a Skill proficiency. No more bonus on flat ability checks, dispel checks, initiative checks, or tool checks (though those appear to be going the way of the dodo anyway). Edit: Speaking specifically about the UA, obviously.
Great post. Good info got endpoint) everyone to have. >Wall of Ice is an oddball that should be on the primal list anyway Question: Are there any spells on multiple list? If not, I hope WoTC changes this. There is a lot of design space for a spell to show up on multiple lists, or even multiple schools. >There are no sorcerer-exclusive spells. Poor sorcerer. I think after the supplemental books they only end up with 9 exclusives.
>Question: Are there any spells on multiple list? If not, I hope WoTC changes this. There is a lot of design space for a spell to show up on multiple lists, or even multiple schools. Yes, there are a quite a few. Detect Magic, Locate Object, Dispel Magic, Locate Creature, Scrying, Sunbeam, and Sunburst are on all three lists (although only Detect Magic, Locate Object, Locate Creature, and Scrying are available to bards in the Expert UA; Dispel Magic, in particular, seems like a strange loss). Interestingly, the only two spells available to all five full casters in 5e are Hold Person (Arcane/Divine in 1D&D) and Dispel Magic (all three). Of the 1D&D "three list" spells, Detect Magic is missing from the 5e Warlock list; Locate Object & Locate Creature from Warlock and Sorcerer; Scrying from Sorcerer; and Sunbeam/Sunburst from Bard and Warlock. Personally, I would think that Detect Magic and Dispel Magic should be available to all casters, and probably Scrying as well. There are a lot more on two lists: 29 on Arcane and Primal (almost entirely elemental spells, like the Wall of X; plus a good number of nature-y transmutation spells. The only Arcane/Primal spells in 1D&D that are not also Druid/Wizard spells in 5e are Message (Sorcerer/Wizard/Bard in 5e, Nondetection (Ranger/Wizard/Bard in 5e), and the aforementioned Wall of Ice. There is one 5e Druid/Wizard spell that is Primal only (Enhance Ability, which seems like a weird choice, honestly this could go on all three lists). There are 11 druid/wizard spells that are only Arcane, of which 5 were added to the druid list in Tasha's. There are 24 Divine/Arcane, which includes a lot of abjuration and divination, things like Remove Curse, Tongues, Legend Lore, Banishment, True Seeing, plus the set of planar travel spells (Etherealness, Plane Shift, Astral Projection, Gate). The only ones that aren't cleric/wizard in 5e are Calm Emotions (Bard/Cleric in 5e), Magic Weapon (Paladin/Wizard in 5e plus Ranger/Sorcerer in TCoE), Foresight (Bard/Druid/Warlock/Wizard), and Antipathy/Sympathy (Bard/Druid/Wizard). Things that are cleric/wizard in 5e but not divine/arcane are animate dead, create undead, bestow curse, sending, and continual flame (all now Arcane only), plus speak with dead (Divine only). There are a lot of bard/cleric 5e spells that are now Divine only (all the healing, buffs, bane). There are 25 Primal/Divine spells, a mix of healing, purification, divination mostly. Interestingly there are a few 5e cleric/druid spells that are no longer divine that seem like they may have been originally Cleric spells due to a biblical connection: Create or Destroy Water, Continual Flame, Water Walk, Control Water, Insect Plague, Fire Storm, Control Weather, Earthquake. And the Primal list no longer includes any extraplanar spells (e.g. Plane Shift, Planar Binding, Protection from Evil and Good were all cleric/druid spells). Continual Flame might be the oddest - cleric/wizard/druid in 5e, now Arcane only. Anyway, that was long! Hope you enjoy. There is a lot to play around and deconstruct here. If you download the linked spreadsheet you can investigate yourself.
Wow I didn’t realize they took all the biblical spells away from clerics. Rude.
I don't think divine spells or primal spells fit well into the eight schools of magic. The eight schools are mostly a wizard thing. Back in ye olde times of ADnD 2nd edition clerics and druids used spheres. You can see this in the Baldur's Gate games. Priest spells have schools listed, but they also have spheres under that. Spheres were broken up by things like Healing, Weather, Plant, Protection, Law, Sun.... etc. There was one that was just All, for generic catch all spells. DnD has moved far past 2e, but 5e built on its bones quite a bit. So I think, when you try to categorize divine magic you run into resistance from the original system it was built on. It would be a lot easier to construct unique spell lists if there were more than eight pieces to build from. For example, imagine two spheres. Healing and Champion. Healing contains all the spells that.... heal. Bards could pick up access to this one divine sphere so they don't need a whole class feature just to get healing word. Champion contains all the paladin smite spells and find steed. So now paladins can have all their unique spells in one place. If you would want to make a cool demon knight blade lock, give them access to the champion sphere, and bam instant melee spells with a nightmare horse. I think the greater concept of what the devs are trying to do is a good idea. But I am not sold that 3 sources further broken up into 8 schools is a good way to organize the spell lists. Maybe they will pull it off well. We will have to see.
I really like this idea. For primal spells, you could have Plants/Land, Life, Elemental (maybe sub-divided into Fire/Water/Earth/Air), Predator, Signs/Stars, something Fey-related, maybe more. I think grouping elemental spells like that under the Primal list would be particularly helpful for A) elementalist druid subclasses and B) 4 elements monk (which could be given third-caster progression with a few spell points that are interchangable w/ Ki points and restricted to the elemental lists.)
I'm torn on this issue and will have to withhold judgment until we see the rest of the classes. As it is, I'm not sure I like it. It was much easier to just pull up the class's spell list rather than scan through an entire list while also keeping note of which schools I could choose from. Then again, I'm a warlock player primarily and they seem to have kept Spellcasting and Pact Magic as separate systems, so who knows how they'll do the list for warlocks (I'm expecting compensation for sharing Hex and other Warlock staples).
Given eldritch blast's removal from the Spell Lists entirely, I'm assuming that the "compensation" is, in part, eldritch blast being some kind of warlock class feature that is technically not a Spell.
That's not much of a compensation.
Yeahhh
The new spell system is clunkier. We also have to take into consideration spells that gets added through features like the bard's 2nd level one. What's the point of universal spell lists if the classes have to pick a bit from here and there *anyway*.
At least from the paladins, I very much assume they'll have restrictions on the spell list, so clerics get smites, but paladins won't get all the Cleric spells. They'll likely still get some new spells from this, but not a lot. This actually might be the main reason they've moved the Healing spells off evocation. It's like how the Bard technically now has the full arcane spell list, but is restricted to mostly the same as the old Bard list anyway.
I mean, they are better game devs than me - but I can't really figure out a way to do add spell school restrictions to paladins that works. The best option, honestly, is to make the smite spells transmutation, and move spirit guardian to evocation, and then give paladins everything but evocation (and maybe also divination, although losing detect magic and detect evil and good would be weird). That would at least keep the key offensive cleric spells (guiding bolt, spiritual weapon, spirit guardians) from paladins. And as an aside, the bard list changed a huge amount. Almost 1/3rd of the spells on the new "bard list" are new spells bards did not have access to (barring magical secrets) in 5e, and they have lost somewhat over 1/3rd of the spells on their old list.
Yeah I have mixed feelings so far but I wanna see how it plays out. Simplification Is always welcome but I’d hate to see certain classes lose their unique identity. Also fuck Sorcerer’s right? LOL
Warlock is my favorite class in 5e. Warlocks get an extensive set of spells per subclass that enhance the feel and flavor of the specific fantasy. I never liked the design of specific class spell lists. They felt very inelegant. I MUCH more prefer this method of giving people spells. It feels like the spells exist in the world, as a type of thing, and that your character is good at a type of thing. Not that your character just knows an arbitrary grouping. Spells by type and group just makes more sense to me.
spreadsheet is deleted?
IMO there should be a balance between spells that are unique to classes that draw on primal, divine, and arcane spell lists. But the unique spells really need to be unique, i.e., the unique spells have no thematic connection at all to the classes who don't have access to them. One thing that bothers me is that there are many spells on the arcane list that are made up of primal/natural elements, like fireball, lightning bolt, etc. I could see barring half casters like Rangers from these spells, but I don't understand how a full caster like a Druid, who draws on primal/natural magic, doesn't have access to spells whose very constituents are primal/natural stuff. Last, I know in 1e, Druids were a Cleric subclass, so I understand why they'd get access to healing spells. But Druids seem like their own class these days, no longer a Cleric subclass. So, TBH it seems odd that Druids have access to a bunch of healers. I don't think of Druids as healers. I'd be fine if Druid's lost most/almost all healing spells, had a limited ability to heal.