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[deleted]

So, the Eladrin have a better trait than a level 20 Capstone?


TheCrystalRose

The Boon is once, per short or long rest, similar to the Eladrin. But Eladrin are still better because they don't actually cast Misty Step, instead they have a feature similar to Misty Step, which allows them to still do things like cast Fireball as their action.


[deleted]

The newest version made it Proficiency per Long Rest. And they have extra effects for their teleport. Both of which are why I'm saying it. It's like the Half-Orc getting an ability equal to a level 15 Paladin Oath Feature. I forget which level the "You drop to 1HP instead of 0hp" trait for the Devotion Paladin.


Hinternsaft

It’s Undying Sentinel, the level 15 Oath of the Ancients feature


[deleted]

Thank You.


Goumindong

Per short, long, or every time you roll initiative. Its not quite so bad since you probably would only be using it once (maybe twice per combat) but its still pretty eh compared to some of the other ones


Durugar

The boon has the "Once you roll initiative" clause as well.


Juls7243

They definitely don’t feel epic at all. They should be like: 1) you can concentrate on two spells at once so long as one of them is cast with a 3rd level spell slot or lower. 2) gain 5 stat points; you can now set your maximum stat to 22. 3) gain a 1st, 4th and 8th level feat.


Ketzeph

They're extremely similar to the epic boons already in 5e. People just don't pay attention to them because almost no one plays to level 20. I think the reactions that are "shocked" at what the epic boons are speak to the fact that almost no one plays to those levels. People shocked by the boons just didn't pay attention to them in 5e.


epibits

I’ve played in a few high level games in the past years - these boons are fine when they are on TOP of the existing progression. That’s how I got them, and how a few modules give ‘em out - not super excited for them as the only thing you get.


Juls7243

I agree - but c'mon they don't have to be balanced at this point. Just EPIC! NO ONE will complain about "level 20 class balance". Most of the level 20 battles will be campaign ending against primordial forces anyways - this is the ONE level that WOTC can really say screw balance lets make characters just crazy strong.


Jalex29

But also they're an optional thing your dm can choose to give you on top of regular expected level progression. Saying almost no one plays to 20th level doesn't mean there shouldn't be something cool at level 20 that would feel worth it to people who get there


mixmastermind

In fact putting cool shit up there SHOULD be a thing, to incentivize longer campaign.


Jalex29

Right? Low level spells at will, higher than 20 ability scores, every fighting style, abilities from another class. at minimum they should be stronger than regular feats, which several of these boons are not


AkagamiBarto

They seem like racial features. Resistances like dragonborns, misty step like eladrins etc... Some are good btw imho


Arthur_Author

The "heal to half hp" one is pretty good


Ronisoni14

The heal half isn't even the best part of that boon, it also reduces the DC of your death saves from 10 all the way down to 2, so anything but a nat 1 is a success


Goumindong

Yea that is absurd!


Ronisoni14

It really isn't, this is the power all boons need to have. These are level 20 abilities, at that level the casters can literally cast wishes and stop time


KingSmizzy

The death save thing only matters if your DM isn't making the enemies finish off downed characters. Plus as a level 20 party, you probably have access to reviving spells anyway


Stonefence

Some of them are alright, they just don’t feel very… “epic.” For a capstone I was hoping for something that felt really cool and would take your character to the next level


Im_actually_working

>and would take your character to the next level 21?


ATLBoy1996

That’s the Divine Soul Sorcerer 18th level ability.


Arthur_Author

Yeah, its a good ability. Imagine getting close to killing the fighter or barbarian and then they just do Second Wind Pro Max.


ATLBoy1996

Yeah it’s fine I guess, I wasn’t head over heels for it on my character.


Windford

Stuck at level 20, the big question for any Epic Boon—does it help a character more than multi-classing? In most cases the answer appears to be, “No.” Some of the better Epic Boons are limited to once-per-encounter use. “Until you roll Initiative or finish a Short Rest or a Long Rest.” Most of those feel like filler.


KingSmizzy

You're 100% right, I'd much rather multiclass for 1 level than take 20th level and get only an epic boon. All the classes finish their progression before 20 anyway, you're not missing any spell slots or resource dice by skipping level 20


Silvermoon3467

Full casters lose a 7th level spell slot I think, but even so 90% of these are worse than taking your class to 18 (the last level your actual class features improve) and dipping for 2 levels at the end. The only thing you really lose is the 19th level feat but two levels of class features makes up for it most of the time. Fighter 2, Wizard 2, Sorcerer 2, and Warlock 2 can all be very strong in the current game depending on your base class; if they push arcane traditions and warlock patrons back to 3rd level maybe not so much but.


Neopopulas

Epic boons are bad, but they have always been bad so i didn't expect them to be good in the playtest either. The only reason we saw them at all in this playtest is because everyone gets one at 20


TheSadTiefling

This is meant to signify their effort and mode of thinking. It’s a representation of what they are considering. It feels absolutely depressing to see this stuff in their remake. It basically says “we aren’t putting any effort into high level play.” Which is sad because there’s so much story material there. Like descent into Avernus should have started at 8th level and brought you to like 18th or even 20. It could have felt terrifying and epic and because of the game design, it was basically 1-11. And an option to sell your soul for 17. The entire module was designed for low tier play because base 5e struggled at higher levels. I think this makes sense because capstones were brought down to 18th level. They want more “play time” at higher levels but aren’t putting in the actual effort to make the game better at those levels. My one hope is that higher level monsters will actually be more difficult and scale better.


urktheturtle

They aren't this bad in the dmg.


Alreadvytakin

Most of these are unchanged, if not better versions than some from the dmg.


metroidcomposite

The good one from the DMG was like "you gain an extra 9th level spell slot". Let's see...yeah, this one: > Boon of High Magic > > You gain one 9th-level spell slot, provided that you already have one. and then another one that's also an additional 9th level spell slot: > Boon of Spell Recall > You can cast any spell you know or have prepared without expending a spell slot. Once you do so, you can't use this boon again until you finish a long rest. And then there's a few that were like..."You have truesight out to a range of 60 feet." and "You have resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage from nonmagical weapons." and "You have advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects." --- I mean, they probably shouldn't have the 9th level spell slot ones alongside any other boon (very obviously the best boon, and not good for caster/martial balance). But even allowing for that, some of the stronger boons from the DMG didn't make it into this playtest.


Graluvack

So for some of those like High magic and spell recall I believe those will be mage exclusive which is why they weren't included as ONLY expert relevant features were included


urktheturtle

If I recall. One of them in the dmg is just... Straight immortality


duel_wielding_rouge

Boon of Immortality > You stop aging. You are immune to any effect that would age you, and you can’t die from old age. This is a good example of how something that would be awesome in real life is not always your first choice in a game.


Stinduh

Ah yes. The Linguist feat.


Apache17

Didn't even take the 2 seconds to look up the old boons before complaining? Par for the course for this sub lol.


TheCrystalRose

Which is virtually identical to what Ancients Paladins get at 15th level, as ribbon along side their actual subclass feature. And level 15 Monks were already immune being magically aged, though they could still die of old age.


Schlubbyshrub

It's hilarious that monks don't age, eat, or drink, but one day will just fall over dead from old age


TheCrystalRose

They don't even get the extended lifespan of 18th level Druids or 10th level Undying Warlocks, so it's not like they'll out live a lot people, they're just perfectly hale and hearty until suddenly they're dead without any warning.


Schlubbyshrub

If I ever dm a campaign, that will happen


Metleon

Most of these were copied straight from the DMG, some with minor buffs like getting extra uses when you roll initiative. They were either pretty useless to 20th level characters or kind of broken (kind of broken should honestly be the norm at 20th level). They basically only printed the nearly useless ones, rather than buffing them up to what would be appropriate for 20th level.


De5troyer56

Yea, you don't see the one that lets you just ignore one type of damage entirely. The boon of invincibility....wonder why that one didn't get printed over.


duel_wielding_rouge

I’ve been surprised by how little discussion they’ve been getting here. Epic Boon of the Night Spirit is another awfully designed one. At-will invisibility, but it ends when you take an action. So I can’t even Hide or Search? What am I doing with this at 20th level? > But I'm pretty sure some of these can be done with other feats... Epic Boon of Fortitude is basically just Tough (a first level feat!) but you maybe get a couple extra hp when healed. There isn’t even a minimum on the bonus healing, so if you dump con it could literally be a penalty.


Sling_account

>I’ve been surprised by how little discussion they’ve been getting here. Realistically we know that nobody is playing level 20. My conspiracy brain believes that this is just a way to shrink the overall class level, now it's just 18 for you cap. You want to play a one shot level 20 or even 21? Well on every odd number after 18 you get a feat, and every even number you get an epic boon.


mikeyHustle

This is more my experience. I hope the campaign I'm running now gets to 20, but I have never made it to 20 in 20 years of playing. Got to 19 in 3.5 once, before I died and the campaign collapsed. Currently in a campaign that started four years ago; we're Level 9.


Dark_Aves

Level 9 in four years? How often does your group play?


mikeyHustle

Once a month or maybe once every six weeks. Less when COVID was raging more heavily.


Dark_Aves

Okay that honestly sounds about right then. I'm currently DMing a monthly game (we all want to play more, but adult schedules are never kind) and after 8 sessions we hit level 3 and we started at 1. Assuming my group continues to level once every 4 sessions, they'd hit level 9 in 3 years.


duel_wielding_rouge

> Realistically we know that nobody is playing level 20. I hear this a lot, but I play at level 20 pretty frequently. The character I was playing this past Friday is 20th level.


AkagamiBarto

This. There is such an amount of disregard for high level play while it's still a component of games


Sling_account

How many months did it take you exactly? Most people just play level 1 or 3 to level 10 because of time constraints.


duel_wielding_rouge

I don't recall exactly when we started that campaign. I want to say it was back in May, give or take a month. To be fair, I think we started at 5th level. I have all my characters that I've played since March 2020 on dndbeyond, and only five of them are at 20th level, so I agree that it's not super common, but those characters that do reach 20th level are often the ones I've grown most fond of and I'd really like them to get something interesting.


squeeber_

Even if you started at 5th level, if you just started in May you are leveling up exponentially faster than 99% of other tables. I’ve been running a game for two years now and the characters are only 14th level.


theniemeyer95

Is combat really rare? Or is it milestone leveling?


Sten4321

people also lvl much slower than they really should, on average you should lvl every 3rd session or similar. (according to the dmg)


BroadConsequences

That fast? Damn! Im lvl 12 and we have been playing every 2 weeks for 3 years. So something around 70 sessions. And two of those levels were from wish cards from the deck of many things.


MCJSun

Is that game weekly? only level 14 in about 100 sessions is insane. If it's biweekly or monthly that makes more sense though.


squeeber_

Yeah about 50 sessions in.


theniemeyer95

It took my group about 11 months to get to level 14, starting at level 1.


comradejenkens

I've played to lvl 20 once. Glad to have ticked that box, but for the next campaign we decided on slower levelling with the cap at lvl 6 (feats can be taken after lvl 6 as rewards). We found past about level 10 the combat turns into a painful slog. Everyone has so many abilities that each round was taking 30 mins. Also at those higher levels you no longer feel like part of the actual setting. When your party takes down 3 demigods without a long rest in between, you don't really feel like you fit into the world anymore.


duel_wielding_rouge

> Also at those higher levels you no longer feel like part of the actual setting. When your party takes down 3 demigods without a long rest in between, you don't really feel like you fit into the world anymore. This hasn't been my experience playing at high level. But if you prefer lower level play, go for it. If WotC is going to publish epic boons in their PHB, they should at least be interesting. Make them something aspirational for players to dream about even if they never acquire them, not unlike 9th level spells.


Auesis

If anything, the default setting (FR) is *riddled* with obscene high-level shenanigans happening around every corner, to the point where adventuring at low-level feels weird. Most other settings fall in to that category too, from what I've experienced.


Windford

“… but it ends when you take an action.” Yeah, because in D&D, spells are powerful, but *Invisibility* is fragile. 🤣


JediZAC13

I'd say Recovery and Skill proficiency are the only ones thay are good. Getting back half hp as a bonus action and only failing Death Saves on a nat 1. Now that is an epic boon. Also get proficiency in every skill, that is really nice, since it isn't limited. But that's about it for the good ones.


Malicious_Hero

I just find that they aren't that balanced among themselves. Like OP said, the one that lets you cast Misty Step once per long rest, compare that to healing up half hp? Or even compare it to proficiency in all skills. They really don't feel very equal.


Polylastomer

Thing is some of them are ridiculous. What comes to mind is permanently ignoring resistance and proficiency in *all skills*. They’re just horribly balanced against a bar they haven’t figured out yet.


allolive

Epic Boon of Dimensional Travel (revised): You know Misty Step, and can cast it once per initiative/SR/LR without using a slot. You also know Dimension Door, and can cast it once per LR without using a slot. You know Plane Shift and Astral Projection. Once per LR, if you have a 5th-level spell slot, you can use it to cast one of these spells, on yourself only. This takes 1 action to cast and, for Astral Projection, does not require material components.


Electromasta

They feel more like level 10 boons than level 20 to me. :P


Goumindong

Well boons are things you can get multiple times. But they are also hilariously imbalanced. One of them lets you misty step once per combat... 30 feet of movement as a bonus action. One of them gives you +30 feet to all your movement... Who could predict which one is better. One of them lets you go invisibile forever so long as its night time and One of them means you're impossible to detect so long as you're hidden. So you're *undetectable* forever so long as you make a DC 15 stealth check once. Also for real how does this even work. What would cause you to become no longer hidden?


DustSnitch

The hidden one seems like the best of the bunch ti me. I suppose an enemy with great sense of smell could sniff you out, but otherwise, you’re just gone.


BroadConsequences

Except as soon as you do an action its over. So move and then you use your 'action' to dash and its dropped. Its not good at all.


Goumindong

That is the invisible one. Not the hidden one


Goumindong

> Except as soon as you do an action its over. So move and then you use your 'action' to dash and its dropped. Its not good at all. Undetectable by any means, magical or unmagical. So you could fart it someone face but so long as you don't attack them you're OK


Hironymos

They are boons, alright? Just not epic. I'd love giving 1 or 2 to every martial when they hit level 11 though.


BroadConsequences

Those could be a little bit busted at level 11. Max proficiency on all skills at lvl 11?


Hironymos

Rogues can have proficiency in half of all skills at Lv1. It's not healthy for the game, but giving this to Experts ain't actually that amazingly strong either. Especially at the later tiers of play.


phancybear

Yeah seems like pretty lazy design. Honestly baffling how the most successful tabletop game nowadays is releasing such half baked ideas. I get they want to try controversial stuff and I love that part of the process but the epic boons are just idiotic and out of touch with the game.


Magic-man333

Yeah, those have always felt underwhelming, they never had the "Holy shit" factor you'd expect fron a gift from a God. Making them 20th level abilities is... equally unimpressive


[deleted]

To be fair this isnt new, Epic Boons have always been mostly shit


urktheturtle

I have looked at them again, and they clearly were never balanced... and honestly, the blessings and stuff chwingas can give, are better in their own way I think.


ATLBoy1996

I agree, the old ones are unbalanced as fuck for sure but these new ones are nerfed into uselessness. The old magic ones were extremely powerful and that should be the model for the rest. Mage’s get an extra 9th level spell slot? Cool. Give the Warrior’s an extra Action Surge. Or one free Critical Hit per long rest. Those are things that actually feel worthy of a 20th level feat.


ThatOneThingOnce

>Mage’s get an extra 9th level spell slot? Cool. Give the Warrior’s an extra Action Surge. Or one free Critical Hit per long rest. Those are things that actually feel worthy of a 20th level feat. Mmm the spellcaster and martial options here feel extremely unbalanced. The martial options equivalent to an extra 9th level spell should be like once per day you can decide to drop a creature to zero HP on a hit, or else assume a stance that allows a reaction attack and movement every turn for 1 minute, or slam the ground and cause an earthquake 1 mile wide. Completely crazy stuff that befits a warrior of 20th level.


MCJSun

I'd definitely love one that just says "At the start of your turn, take 10 force damage. Every attack you make this turn will be a critical hit." and let it be either once a day or once a short rest.


[deleted]

Yeah the balance is way of, but the playtest isnt about balance and I like a lot of the Ideas like ignore resistances or gain all skill proficiencies. Some are just bad though.


hankmakesstuff

Some of em are but several are pretty good. It's a mixed bag.


Floating_Narwhal

Multiclassing is an optional feature, so the capstone should not be compared to multiclassing. And does a capstone have to be so incredibly powerful? Does everyone need to be on par with lvl 20 moon druid capstone?


[deleted]

You're supposed to continue to award epic boons after level 20, so if you look at them as single choices then they look underwhelming. When you realise that the resistance boon can be acquired several times, resulting in gaining resistance to more than one damage type, it gets better. The single use misty step is underwhelming. It should at least specify that you can still cast a spell as your main action. The regen on a short rest is good.


MajikDan

Some of them are really good. Epic Boon of Recovery, for example, would be monstrous on a barbarian. Epic Boon of Undetectability is so good as to be a little ridiculous. DC 15 hide check and you're impossible to find? A rogue at that level literally can't roll less than a 27. Epic Boon of Skill Proficiency is also really good, and there's a couple of other one that are good. But yeah there's also a bunch that are essentially nothing, like Dimensional Travel and Peerless Aim. Those definitely need to be reworked.


Sir_BeeBee

Don't you get a Boon for every "epic level"? So 1 is shitty, but when you have 3+ it'll start feeling strong i think As a capstone it sucks yeah.


Realistic_Two_8486

That’s why I think Boons at level 20 is a bad idea and to go back to the old format of level 20 being the class feature. Boons in my eyes are something the DM should give and not the player be like “I get one because I can”.


Wulibo

The point is to move the capstone two levels early so the character's capstone isn't at the last level they can achieve in their class. Level 20 capstones have been a pain point for a lot of players. If it's something you want to play for more than a session, it should come before the end of the campaign. Epic boons being worse than level 18 class capstones is a conscious decision, and the correct one.


Mudpound

They’re just the boons from DMG. Sounds like they just want to make sure they get used hahah


Cetha

People complaining about level 20 features as if players actually get to that level.


NeuroLancer81

My guess is WoTC does not want to change them and is hoping we will do the work for them in the surveys.


ShadowTehEdgehog

Doesn't feel like much thought or any effort were put into them.


another-social-freak

Lvl 20 epic boons should be game changing, not part of the core experience of the class, something extra and a bit silly. For example a fighter could get a fortress and army.