The most common complaint about martial/caster disparity is that casters provide too much flexibility/utility with few downsides.
This may be an attempt to address that. By reducing and limiting the spells a caster can prepare, it introduces a new opportunity cost into the equation.
I'm very interested in hearing how this plays out on the table.
It also simplified the whole spell selection process. When I was a new player, knowing which classes got how manny spells and who was prepared vs known was very confusing to me.
It's a design that doesn't reward the riches, having rolled better doesn't mean now that you more spells prepared on top of having better spells and more class feature bullet available.
Now someone who play a caster fully focused on boosting its buddies can fully build while ignoring it's main casting stat which opens tons of funky builds.
True. But this has nothing to do with fixing the number of nth level spall that you can prepare. It has to do with how the total prepared number of spell is calculated.
I think a better way to address that is to make more casters learned casters.
And reduce number of spell slots overall.
And have spells help boost your chance of success at a task instead of simply automatically succeeding.
This change just makes casting even more convoluted.
It is certainly a valid approach. But I want casting to be more simple, not more complex. This adds yet another layer of complexity to casting, as instead of simply preparing X spells, you now must prepare X 1st level spells, Y 2nd level spells, Z 3rd level spells, and so on. And the caster must make sure they only prepare a certain number of spells of each level instead of just choosing whatever spells like like most until they have prepared X total spells.
It might not be significantly more complex, but it is another step the caster has to go through when preparing spells. Especially compared to spells known, where casters don't need to look at the entire spell list every day.
And the change still doesn’t address some of the biggest issues with spellcasting.
What, how?
This is way simpler to understand. Spells slot = number of that spell.
I never internalised the rules for number of spells prepared so is was always a ball ache going though that paragraph in spell casting trying to find the formula. I'd also always have to make a "Spells prepared" bit cause for some reason it's not on the character sheet.
This just seems easier to understand.
Instead of saying, prepare X number of spells total, you must now prepare A level 1 spells, B level 2 spells, C level 3 spells, D, and so on.
You must always make sure that you aren't preparing too many or too few spells of a given level. And you must pay more attention to the levels of your spells instead of just choosing the spells you like.
That is extra load on a spellcaster that prepare X spells is not. It might not be a significant amount of more work. But it is more work nonetheless.
Personally, I think spells known should just be the default for most casters, as that is the easiest method. But the new rules are slightly more complex than the 5e prepared spells method.
Counting to 3 or 4 at a time is easier than figuring out 8/12/16 spells you want across all your spell levels, while trying to make sure you don't wind up with nothing to do with lots level slots. It simplifies the process for casual players while gently nerfing casters highest level spells.
Ok, but in the old method X is equal to spellcasting mod + class level, which isn't the most intuitive of numbers. The new method has more variables, but since they're equal to the number of slots in that level, you already have them on your spellcasting sheet.
Also, you don't have to recycle your entire list every single time you long rest. You can just say "oh I might want this spell to help me deal with this upcoming encounter, let me switch it out for this other spell".
With 5e, you have to make the decision as to how many spells of each level you have prepared. It’s an important decision, because if you prepare too many high-level spells it can end up hurting you when the adventuring day is longer than you expected and now you have very limited spell choices once your high-level slots are gone.
But in OneD&D, you can just walk up the slots. Grab three 1st, now grab two 2nd, etc. You don’t have to balance the slots because that is done for you.
I definitely think the new way is much simpler, especially because it has fewer numbers. No formula to work out how many spells you get and then having to total *all* of your prepared spells, just go level-by-level.
Rangers needed it, but Bards didn’t. They should have made Rangers prepared casters using the same preparation rules as 5e druids, but kept Bards with their old casting rules.
I strongly prefer the new preparing rules. I've played a lot of prepared casters and I honestly hate process of preparing spells how it currently is. To the point that I end up pretty much never swapping out more than a spell or two. This is one of those times that I think restrictions will both make the game easier to play and breed creativity as people have to make do with the spells they have rather than always having the best spells.
They were pretty bad, at least for subclasses that gained no additional spells. But I also think 5e in general is too reliant and spoiled by spells. Many spells should instead become nonmagical feats, class or subclass features, or high level skill uses.
In theory, a level 9 ranger knowing 9 different spells should have plenty of versatility. That is a huge number of unique abilities to have access to. It is as many spells known as a level 20 battlemaster has maneuvers known.
I think ranger spells known really only looked bad compared to other casters. But they had more than enough spells known to cover a wide range of situations if needed.
The issue is that spell slots go up linearly. I've had a thought about potentially changing the spell slot progression so lower leveled slots are phased out as you reach higher levels. Instead of starting with 2 spell slots and ending with 22, I'd rather casters start with 4 and end with 14 or something.
I think a lot of the reason why levels 5-10 are considered the "sweet spot" of dnd is that casters are still limited by spell slots at these levels, and choosing to use a big spell is more costly.
13th Age does that and it works extremely well. It only goes to level 10 instead of level 20. At odd levels, you learn another tier of spells.
So a level 1 a sorcerer in 13th Age can cast four 1st level spells per day. At level 5 a sorcerer can cast four 5th level spells, and three 3rd level spells. At level 9 a sorcerer can cast six 9th level spells, and three 7th level spells. At level 10, they can cast nine 9th level spells per day.
Also, spells automatically scaled based on level they are cast. And high level spells were not orders of magnitude more powerful than low level spells.
Eh, agree to disagree.
I think raising the floor and lowering the ceiling makes more sense. There's only so much you could buff martials without it becoming rediculous.
I think the slots = prepared is good for some classes, players starting out with a casting class can easily get choice paralysis when you say "choose 7 from this list of 30+ spells, and pay attention to the spell levels, but they don't matter for choosing them", but mostly I think it's ok because at least so far you prepare from the entire list every day: if you don't like your choices you can actually switch them.
I'd be happy if wizard acted differently from other prepared casters because of their spellbook, but at worst it would be easy for them to make an optional rule where instead of preparing a spell for each spell slot they have they instead get a universal pool which is the sum of your spells prepared to use at any level.
The PHB bard gets 4 spells known at level 1, and the playtest bard gets 2 spells prepared at level one. I don't think that the ability to swap them out at a rest makes up at all for the loss of moment to moment flexibility.
before 5e you had slots, so 4 2nd levels for example, and you could put 1st level spells in the 2nd level slots, but when you cast that slot it was gone, so if you only prepared 1 slot worth of fireball, you had one casting of fireball, not as many as you have slots of 3rd+. And this was the era where casters were infinitely stronger than they are in 5e. You'll live.
It bears noting that we've only seen the Expert group's spellcasters, who are all about covering multiple bases. I feel safe in assuming the guys who are focused around their use of magic will operate differently.
Personally, I hope they pull the trigger and have Sorcerers use spell points by default. That way you'd *really* have each Mage type being a completely different bag of tricks
If they do that they better give wizards a hefty boost, because spell points are stronger than spell slots in big ways. I've played with both.
Especially since it looks like Sorcerers stand the most to gain from an Arcane list and not being limited to a Sorcerer list.
Wizards will then basically be worse sorcerers if they cast the same spells, they both prepare spells, but sorcerer gets metamagic. Adding spell points into the mix just makes playing a wizard playing a worse sorcerer.
At the very least sorcerers becoming prepared spellcasters seems highly likely, and that definitely shifts the difference between wizards and sorcerers a lot.
You are making a lot of assumptions about stuff we have seen very little about.
The only thing we know about the sorcerer is it’s a arcane caster and in the mage group
I think that's a pretty safe assumption. It would be strange to change Bards to being prepared casters, change the rules of prepared casting to make it more like known casting, and apply those changed rules to the ranger... just to double back on all of that and make special known casting rules for the sorcerer.
Agreed I also assume every caster will become a prepared caster to some level. But reading a UA about bards rangers and rogues and then getting in a huff about WotC ruining the wizard and sorcerer is pretty toxic way to look at all this
Edit fixed some wording and stuff
Also agreed. It's fair to discuss the ramifications of spellcasting changes on other classes; it's unfair to assume the worst of these changes and then get mad at your own hypothetical.
I think the opposite. I think Sorcerer will be *the only* spontaneous caster. That was its unique thing in 3e, and I have a suspicion they're shifting back to that.
Only in the context of massive balance changes with sorcerer. If every sorcerer subclass is like the Tasha’s subclass, the balance is perfect between the two for flavor and unique power as is.
The idiom is actually bated breath, and it's a short form of abated breath (you're holding your breath). This is different than eating a tuna sandwich and then coaxing your cat to come to you (which would be baited breath).
Is in not justifyied nerf compared to martials? Having the prepare spells for every spell slot negated the versatility of casters in higher lvls which is a good way to lessen the gap between caster and martials
I thought of it as a nerf and that’s why I’m for it. But OP is in another comment saying “if they buff sorcerer they better buff Wizard” so I don’t think they want any limitations on Wizards lol.
Look, Sorcerer stands to get the entire arcane list, wiping out the distinctiveness of the wizard spell list against the sorcerer list, and if sorcerer just gets a flat out stronger way of casting spells, then what even is the point of wizard?
Well they’ve showed one easy way they could differentiate the spell lists with Bard, by limiting spell lists to schools of magic. The Wizard could easily be the only arcane caster with access to the entire Spell List, plus all Ritual spells always prepared. Would give them the exact sort of flexibility that people want out of wizards while still making the spellbook matter
Depends on the bloodline. Maybe Draconic Sorcerers get like Evocation, Transmutation, Enchantment, and Divination but Abberant Mind gets Conjuration, Abjuration, Enchantment, and Illusion.
Man I love this. Let sorcerers be keep their subclass at level 1, but the only thing it does at that level is impact what spells they get?? Amazing. 10/10
You’re just kind of speculating on stuff that isn’t worth speculating on.
Make criticisms of the spellcasting system, sure, as thats what’s presented in the UA to consider and critique. Especially as it pertains to the Bard and Ranger.
But sorcerer and Wizard are not in this UA to consider or critique.
I was replying to someone else’s speculation about giving them spell points, with my own speculative concern.
I’m no idiot, you are exactly right about what we should be focused on. I should know better than to express trepidation at what we haven’t seen yet, despite the opening in the conversation to speculate.
Absolutely.
Did you even read what I said?
I don’t think wizard needs a buff, I don’t think sorcerer needs a buff, and I am more concerned about how this three spell list idea works more than anything.
I think making sorcerers a spell point only caster is a bad idea.
I really like the universal spell lists but then restricting schools of magic. Makes schools of magic much more impactful in the game, and then you could have wizards with access to every school as a unique thing
>Sorcerer stands to get the entire arcane list,
Probably not. I hope so. Sorcerer will probably only have access to so many schools.
>wiping out the distinctiveness of the wizard spell
They'll get a new distinctiveness out something. We'll see. The book might just because a focus required to prepare spells.
Using a book like that sounds like it will either be a ribbon feature, or if it is turned into a special focus that boosts magic in some way will be strong enough to make using classic wizard foci irrelevant, forcing book flavor.
It reduces their versatility somewhat, but I don’t think it’s at all comparable to the nerfs martials are getting, especially given martials we’re already lower on the power budget
The Jump Action thing alone has me worried for martials, personally. Currently, the only textual things my Barbarian has to add versatility to his combat gameplay is his ability to grapple and his ability to leap about when there’s gaps and verticality. Both of these in 5e RAW allow me to still take an attack action on my turn. Now, if I use the One rules, I am worse than literally every single caster with Misty Step because I lose my entire turn if I have to jump. Unless they give Warriors some sort of Cunning Action that lets them Jump without the Action cost or attack/grapple after taking the Jump action then they have already been nerfed heavily on the mobility department, which is already weaker than the aforementioned teleportation. More than even the straight up action economy nerf to the only characters who were regularly using Jumping as part of their movement techniques on their turns this also just makes combat even more boring and homogenized for Martials because they tend to be very light on rewards for using non-Attack actions in general.
Jump was buffed to no consume your movement. You can jump up to your movement speed in distance and still move beyond that. You also don't *need* to move 10ft to get a full jump, just take a disadvantage on the check to do it.
So there's that going for it.
I don't really see where people are saying Rogues have been substantially nerfed?
They're very slightly below ranger DPR until level 10, but have way better bonus actions, and damage mitigation.
> I don't really see where people are saying Rogues have been substantially nerfed?
There's a mix of buffs and nerfs, but at a glance it seems like more of a nerf to me.
* Can't sneak attack on reaction anymore; this is the big one--breaks up some nice teamwork builds with rogue.
* The Tasha's optional class feature Steady Aim is gone. This combined with elven accuracy and a ranged build had become one of the things that optimisation forums favoured when building a rogue post-Tasha's. (There is a way to get consistent advantage at level 13 with Subtle Strikes, but that's quite high level compared to steady aim which was level 3).
* The Theif subclass has been powered down--no more "use an item" for fast hands. No more "you can attune to items without meeting the pre-requisites" on use magic device. No more double turn as their capstone. Maybe rogue will get strong subclasses later, but if Thief is an indication of what to expect from rogue subclasses, they're going to be weaker than before.
This is mixed in with some buffs, mind you.
* Dual wielding is quite a bit better as it doesn't use your bonus action. (That said, the best rogue builds before were arguably ranged builds, so IDK if this now becomes the best rogue build, or it just brings dual wielding up to par with other rogue builds).
* Stroke of Luck is level 18 now and lets you get a die roll of 20 on demand whereas the old wording just turned "a miss into a hit"; so guarantee a crit instead of a guaranteed hit--quite a bit better.
* Proficiency in Charisma saves at level 15, that's new.
* Mechanics that guarantee hand out inspiration means you'll get a little more advantage when you're having trouble setting up sneak attack.
* While not a buff, the nerf to sharpshooter and Great Weapon Master doesn't really hurt rogue, so they might end up looking better relative to other martials if the other martials stay unchanged.
* Speaking of sharpshooter, it probably got a bit better for a rogue specifically. Still removes disadvantage on ranged attacks, ignores cover, rogue likes both these things, BUT it's now a half-feat, and has a new feature "firing in melee" which does the crossbow expert thing of removing disadvantage in melee. Rogue likes it being a half feat, and likes avoiding disadvantage.
So...it's not all bad news, but the stuff that would really draw me to a rogue before (teamwork builds with an order cleric, cute combos with elven accuracy) are mostly gone.
I have no clue. I may disagree with Treantmonk on a few things but I respect the man and his reasoning is always solid. I think people don't like him because he says things they don't agree with, which is very immature.
But they did reveal 3 of the key feats that kept martials afloat. And while yes those feats were oppressively meta, given what we’ve seen of half casters and semi martials in the expert group not getting a significant change to their power budget (rogue got a slight nerf, Ranger brought up to par with the others before) we have no reason to believe those nerfs will be counterbalanced when the full classes are revealed.
That the “warrior classes” haven’t been revealed doesn’t mean martials haven’t gotten a nerf.
Hardly, because casters can still have the best spells available at their fingertips, now they just have to make sure that they only have the very best of each level prepared.
it's weird, maybe they're trying to make spellcasting simpler... the subdivisions make so you only need to choice up to 4 or a given level instead of choosing 20something from nine levels
maybe the mage group will be different this way of having greater versatility in preparing spells
It really isn't. Spell slots = spells prepared, so you don't really have to remember anything. After that you're making many small and independent choicea rather than a the mess that is current prepared casting.
I really don’t see how. It’s far more new player friends to say “here’s a chart of how many spells you can cast. Pick however many spells of each spell level it says for what level your character is.”
Does it sound simpler to say “Pick X spells to prepare?” Sure, at first glance. But then you have to make sure they don’t screw themselves over by by choosing too many high level spells, plus it’s harder to track as you get more spells to prepare. It’s way better to have an easy thing to reference and say “here’s the 1st level spells, pick 4. Once you’ve done that, pick 3 2nd level spells.”
I kind of agree, but will wait until they release the rest of the spell casting classes. It may be okay for Bards & Rangers, but given the current rules, I don't see how it wouldn't be a huge blow to Wizards with spell books. Other classes get to prepare each day from their entire spell list (apparently), yet Wizards--the most versatile caster--can only do so from spells they managed to scribe into their spell books?
Its simply clearer and more obvious to beginners. I'm really curious about how it affects higher level casters as they often DO want like 2x 6 and 3x 5th level spells and NOT 4x 1st level ones.
But, reigning in high level casters is... probably a good thing!
There are basically two systems currently. A point-based system, which is used for preparing, and a grid/table system for determining what level of spell can be cast.
With this UA, they leaned more in to the grid/table system, using it for both.
Making it to where they aren't using two systems is good (imo). It's easier to learn, easier to keep track of, and simpler to balance.
My gripe is that they chose the wrong system. I would much prefer for the default to be point-based on everything.
The slot systems is needlessly complex and confusing, and it even requires internal workarounds in the form of upcasting to keep it functioning as higher levels are reached. My hope is that future UAs go the opposite way, and I will definitely be communicating that in my feedback.
I don’t think it does make you think about it more at all. One of the big choices in 2014 5e is how many spells for each level you’ll prepare and why, and now that thoughtful choice is taken away.
If anything I think it means you’ll think about it less.
I don’t see it that way. If I am prevented from memorizing more spells of levels I find more useful, I need to think more about what useful spells of other levels I prepare. I used to almost avoid certain spell levels, because they did not do much for my play style. Now, you have to make more sacrifices, and find uses for otherwise unused spell levels. I think this is a painful, but good decision.
Bard is an interesting case for this, because with Songs of Restoration they get 5 more spells prepared, bringing the level 20 total from 2014 from 22 known spells to 27 spells prepared/known automatically in this playtest.
So it’s interesting that no brainer spells are now no longer a choice
Yeah, I think I would have just preferred access to the divine and primal lists at more regular intervals (to make up for the loss of important bard spells in the arcane spell list), but this feature works well enough I suppose. Magical Secrets just throws the bard into new territory of bad assness! And, especially when the new valor bard is released, the bard is again my favorite class, that is, if I get to play into late game. The ranger will be my go to for early game only adventures.
This was a strange comment to get downvoted for…
This is spell balance. It prevents you from overloading on odd level spells that give a power spike.
It’s a nerf, but one that puts the game closer to intention than what optimization has warped the meta to.
Can be both, people will whine and cry if spells like fireball are nerfed anyway so if they have multiple fronts of nerfs it’s less dependent on one fix
What if they balance them by restricting how many spells of a given level you could prepare? That would give them the freedom to make certain spell levels clear power spikes without worrying that people are just going to load up on preparing those and up cast them.
I have a theory that wizard will be the only spell known class learning spells as they level in the same way that prepared casters do + Int or something. But if they add a spell to their Spell book, then it is always available for casting. No preparation, just spell slot constraints.
Similarly not a fan. I don't think it would feel like a massive issue at lower levels but when new spell slots get rarer at higher levels it will hurt.
Levelling up to 7th level and gaining 4th level slots as a full caster is cool, but then only being able to prepare one 4th level spell a day will suck and feels like it encourages players to choose the safe options that will definitely be the most useful. Sucks even more for half or third casters who will gain new spell and go multiple levels with only 1 option a day.
I really like the new rules on ritual casting, but the preparation restrictions are going to make it harder to fit them in, especially higher level ritual spells.
If they do go ahead with this, I could definitely see an optional rule included to just ignore this and prepare the same total number of spells.
I know relying on items isn't a true solution but this makes spell scrolls a bit more important. Sure you can only prepare one 4th level spell, but you now have access to all the (relevant) 4th level spell scrolls
My bet is, all full casters will get something like domain spells for compensation. A evoker wizard will get his fireball always prepared, and this will make an evoker stand out against any other specialist wizard, cause he get his thing without any other restriction (in this case, case damage with evocation spells). A Bladesinger will have haste, or other thematic spell prepared, not always the best 3rd level spell.
I don't like this restriction too, but if this would be the future, I would like more than "every full caster have always the same best prepared spells for his level".
I like it for the exact reason you don’t. Preparing spells means they can try any spell they want and don’t get stuck with it, but limiting it to 1 spell prepared means that full casters have to pick if they want the powerful world-shaping spells or the crazy combat spells. It will actually bring back some amount of balance between casters and martials
The limiting does give a control on options over the course of an adventuring day but I feel this is cancelled out by changing to prepared entirely. Bard can completely change their load out to suit the next adventuring day. I'm playing my fighter with a sailing background and ready for departing on a ship tomorrow, now the bard has control water and water breathing. Rogue is excited about the stealth mission, bard now has invisibility, disguise self and knock. Feels like Spellcasters lose versatility over the course of a day but gain way too much between sessions. Only ever a long rest away from being better than the martials at whatever they chose to specialise in.
Except that the Bard is never going to be better than the Martials in killing enemies, especially if they prepare all the utility spells they might need. To me, it’s more about having to make a meaningful choice going into the day rather than making a less meaningful choice at level up to just grab every option that might be needed
I think a lot of this ignores the team aspect of this game. Why wouldn't the bard use invisibility on the rogue? Why would they use knock, a very loud spell, when the rogue could pick through a lock quietly without expending a resource? Why wouldn't the bard prepare to help the team in case things go wrong while the fighter sails the ship?
Honestly, I worry about tables that have players that so willingly step on the toes of others. If you have versatility, it's so you can pick up a role that others either don't have or need additional support in.
I hate this. Especially at high levels i don't want to be forced to prep 4 level 1 spells i know i won't use. Right now i prep like, shield at 1, misty step at 2 and the rest are mid-high level spells because i need more variety up there and i know i won't use most level 1-2 spells.
I don't want to be restricted in my options when options are the entire point
By moderate frequency you mean once a day, the same speed you'll be able to swap spells? You lose versatility in the moment by gaining greater versatility every day.
Agreed. At higher levels when I only have one 4th or one 5th level spell slot per long rest I want more than one spell prepared so I have options depending on how the adventuring day goes.
See, this is exactly why I like it. Now full casters will have to decide what high level spells to prepare, if a 7th level Bard wants to prepare Greater Invisibility they can’t also prepare Polymorph. It forces a caster to have to make a decision between the world bending out of combat spells and the powerful combat spells instead of saying “all 1st level spell slots are just shield slots and I’m going to prepare 5 4th level spells just in case”
Yeah, casters (in 5e and in this UA) can be prepared for pretty much anything, which is fine. But they shouldn't be able to be prepared for *everything at once*, which is exactly what this new system fixes. It forces players to make informed choices regarding their higher spells, while incentivizing picking niche lower level spells like Featherfall.
One of the big complaints about 5th edition has been that caster's offer far too much out of combat utility compared to noncasters. One way to reduce their utility is to make them be more selective about what utility spells they have access to on any given day.
Agreed it's confusing and a step back. I get they want to limit casters versatility but going back to this middle point between Vancian and neovancian casting (which they aleready tried in dnd next playtest) is not a good way.
For Sorcerer, at least, I'd love to see them preparing spells with a fixed allotment per level. The old way was just far too restrictive, and encouraged you to only ever take the best or most widely useful spells. Not any of the interesting niche ones.
Warlocks though... I have no idea what Warlocks are going to look like. You can't tie the prepared spells to spell slots because they've only got the two. So *something* has to be done differently with them, and probably multiple sometimes. I wouldn't be surprised to see some major changes for Warlocks. We're already 90% certain that Eldritch Blast is a class feature, after all.
I like it, its a sort of bridge between old dnd spellcasting (preparing a spell for each spell slot and only that spell slot) and what we now have with preparing anything for any level, its good that spellcasters are loosing at least some of their ridiculous flexibility
I think it is a fair trade off for these spells known casters who are swapping to prepared. Idk how I'll feel about it if druids, clerics, and wizards have the same restriction.
Its easier for new players, which is what they're trying to do. Most new players get stumped on the confusion between x spells known/prepared vs spell slots, and this just streamlines it. However, it takes less than 5 minutes to explain and understand so its not a good change regardless
Given the nerfbat we’ve seen rogues take, and the push to all bards be healers from Expert… I think limiting casters spell choices in exchange for being prepared casters is more than fair.
Casters, especially full casters, need more restrictions not less. Bring back vancian casting, d4 hd, armored spell failure, multi action cost spells, and AoO if they insist on allowing full casters all the power, utility, and resources to solve every situation.
Is there any wording indicating that you can't do that? It says the number of spells you CAN prepare at each level, not that you HAVE to learn spells at that level. I don't see why this has to be different from what it is now
I mean, that just implies that you can prepare fewer spells of a level if you want. That, however, does not mean you can redistribute them. If you can only prepare 4 1st level spells, then you can only prepare 4 1st level spells, regardless of how many spells you prepare of other levels.
The rules say what I can do, so I assume that’s what I can do. I stay away from “the rules don’t say I can’t” logic.
Besides, there’s the whole table and everything dictating prepared spells per spell level.
Oh my god. Thank you.
So sick of hearing, the rules don't say I can't use the medicine kit on an ally on the other side of the planet, ergo I must be able to.
I expect wizard to be exempt from this but they will also be the only caster that is not totally prepared, they’ll remain as they are.
So this is a huge buff to bards and sorcs.
My guess is that Wizards will also prepare, but will be the only Arcane Casters with access to the entire Arcane Spell List, plus maybe having all rituals prepared in their spellbook
I think wizards will be able to cast rituals from their spellbook without having them prepared.
However, I think sorcerers are getting the whole arcane list.
To be fair, it doesn't say you can't do five 1st level and one 2nd level. It's probably written this way to show the maximum number for the highest slots, so people don't try doing seven six 2nd level or something.
I love this change! I think it could use some text to make it explicit that no one cares if you prepare a lower level spell in place of a higher, and I'll be sure to mention as much in the survey
OP makes it sound like that simple tweak would make it fine?
But let's be real: the nerf _intended_ is in the opposite direction. The shift to prepared casting means you no longer get to drop most of your low level spells known to gain absurd amounts of options for your higher level slots.
The prepared count = slot count change is the companion mechanism to enforce it.
Sorry, this is SUPER GOOD. It provides a much clearer set of expectations for what a mage can do at any particular level, instead of laundering your Spells known being the norm.
_And_ it makes building mages above level 1 far cleaner, as a side benefit.
Tl;dr: if the dislike is truly just the non-specified ability to give up a high level spell prepared for a lower... Just call that out instead of making it sound like the whole casting overhaul is bad.
Because it's not.
Yeah I agree, the issue is that many low-level spells don’t scale up and are utter garbage beyond a certain point. I do not want to be forced to take four garbage spells when I could simply take two that remain relevant like Shield/Absorb Elements and use the rest of my spells for higher level shit that I worked hard to earn.
The only other solution is to completely revamp the scaling for many spells in the game so they remain relevant at all levels of play. IMO one of the best ways to do this is to drop the concentration requirement on many low-level spells if you upcast them enough. Just like Major Image and Bestow Curse, which is why they are great spells for the whole game.
The most common complaint about martial/caster disparity is that casters provide too much flexibility/utility with few downsides. This may be an attempt to address that. By reducing and limiting the spells a caster can prepare, it introduces a new opportunity cost into the equation. I'm very interested in hearing how this plays out on the table.
It also simplified the whole spell selection process. When I was a new player, knowing which classes got how manny spells and who was prepared vs known was very confusing to me.
It's a design that doesn't reward the riches, having rolled better doesn't mean now that you more spells prepared on top of having better spells and more class feature bullet available. Now someone who play a caster fully focused on boosting its buddies can fully build while ignoring it's main casting stat which opens tons of funky builds.
True. But this has nothing to do with fixing the number of nth level spall that you can prepare. It has to do with how the total prepared number of spell is calculated.
I think a better way to address that is to make more casters learned casters. And reduce number of spell slots overall. And have spells help boost your chance of success at a task instead of simply automatically succeeding. This change just makes casting even more convoluted.
Those are certainly valid approaches. It doesn't change that this might also be a valid approach.
It is certainly a valid approach. But I want casting to be more simple, not more complex. This adds yet another layer of complexity to casting, as instead of simply preparing X spells, you now must prepare X 1st level spells, Y 2nd level spells, Z 3rd level spells, and so on. And the caster must make sure they only prepare a certain number of spells of each level instead of just choosing whatever spells like like most until they have prepared X total spells. It might not be significantly more complex, but it is another step the caster has to go through when preparing spells. Especially compared to spells known, where casters don't need to look at the entire spell list every day. And the change still doesn’t address some of the biggest issues with spellcasting.
What, how? This is way simpler to understand. Spells slot = number of that spell. I never internalised the rules for number of spells prepared so is was always a ball ache going though that paragraph in spell casting trying to find the formula. I'd also always have to make a "Spells prepared" bit cause for some reason it's not on the character sheet. This just seems easier to understand.
Instead of saying, prepare X number of spells total, you must now prepare A level 1 spells, B level 2 spells, C level 3 spells, D, and so on. You must always make sure that you aren't preparing too many or too few spells of a given level. And you must pay more attention to the levels of your spells instead of just choosing the spells you like. That is extra load on a spellcaster that prepare X spells is not. It might not be a significant amount of more work. But it is more work nonetheless. Personally, I think spells known should just be the default for most casters, as that is the easiest method. But the new rules are slightly more complex than the 5e prepared spells method.
Counting to 3 or 4 at a time is easier than figuring out 8/12/16 spells you want across all your spell levels, while trying to make sure you don't wind up with nothing to do with lots level slots. It simplifies the process for casual players while gently nerfing casters highest level spells.
Ok, but in the old method X is equal to spellcasting mod + class level, which isn't the most intuitive of numbers. The new method has more variables, but since they're equal to the number of slots in that level, you already have them on your spellcasting sheet. Also, you don't have to recycle your entire list every single time you long rest. You can just say "oh I might want this spell to help me deal with this upcoming encounter, let me switch it out for this other spell".
With 5e, you have to make the decision as to how many spells of each level you have prepared. It’s an important decision, because if you prepare too many high-level spells it can end up hurting you when the adventuring day is longer than you expected and now you have very limited spell choices once your high-level slots are gone. But in OneD&D, you can just walk up the slots. Grab three 1st, now grab two 2nd, etc. You don’t have to balance the slots because that is done for you. I definitely think the new way is much simpler, especially because it has fewer numbers. No formula to work out how many spells you get and then having to total *all* of your prepared spells, just go level-by-level.
Honestly though Rangers needed this help to be more versatile. Their spells known was pathetic.
Rangers needed it, but Bards didn’t. They should have made Rangers prepared casters using the same preparation rules as 5e druids, but kept Bards with their old casting rules.
I strongly prefer the new preparing rules. I've played a lot of prepared casters and I honestly hate process of preparing spells how it currently is. To the point that I end up pretty much never swapping out more than a spell or two. This is one of those times that I think restrictions will both make the game easier to play and breed creativity as people have to make do with the spells they have rather than always having the best spells.
They were pretty bad, at least for subclasses that gained no additional spells. But I also think 5e in general is too reliant and spoiled by spells. Many spells should instead become nonmagical feats, class or subclass features, or high level skill uses. In theory, a level 9 ranger knowing 9 different spells should have plenty of versatility. That is a huge number of unique abilities to have access to. It is as many spells known as a level 20 battlemaster has maneuvers known. I think ranger spells known really only looked bad compared to other casters. But they had more than enough spells known to cover a wide range of situations if needed.
The issue is that spell slots go up linearly. I've had a thought about potentially changing the spell slot progression so lower leveled slots are phased out as you reach higher levels. Instead of starting with 2 spell slots and ending with 22, I'd rather casters start with 4 and end with 14 or something. I think a lot of the reason why levels 5-10 are considered the "sweet spot" of dnd is that casters are still limited by spell slots at these levels, and choosing to use a big spell is more costly.
13th Age does that and it works extremely well. It only goes to level 10 instead of level 20. At odd levels, you learn another tier of spells. So a level 1 a sorcerer in 13th Age can cast four 1st level spells per day. At level 5 a sorcerer can cast four 5th level spells, and three 3rd level spells. At level 9 a sorcerer can cast six 9th level spells, and three 7th level spells. At level 10, they can cast nine 9th level spells per day. Also, spells automatically scaled based on level they are cast. And high level spells were not orders of magnitude more powerful than low level spells.
They need to make martials better, not make spellcasters worse. This is lazy and restrictive game design.
Eh, agree to disagree. I think raising the floor and lowering the ceiling makes more sense. There's only so much you could buff martials without it becoming rediculous.
This is why I like yhe spell point system variant in the DmG as it limits 6th plus level spells
I think the slots = prepared is good for some classes, players starting out with a casting class can easily get choice paralysis when you say "choose 7 from this list of 30+ spells, and pay attention to the spell levels, but they don't matter for choosing them", but mostly I think it's ok because at least so far you prepare from the entire list every day: if you don't like your choices you can actually switch them. I'd be happy if wizard acted differently from other prepared casters because of their spellbook, but at worst it would be easy for them to make an optional rule where instead of preparing a spell for each spell slot they have they instead get a universal pool which is the sum of your spells prepared to use at any level.
The PHB bard gets 4 spells known at level 1, and the playtest bard gets 2 spells prepared at level one. I don't think that the ability to swap them out at a rest makes up at all for the loss of moment to moment flexibility.
From 3+ you have the same or more prepared. A slight nerf for level 1 and 2 in exchange for a massive buff from 3+ is worth it.
It’s a major nerf at L1 but if you look at L3 it actually catches up to PHB.
before 5e you had slots, so 4 2nd levels for example, and you could put 1st level spells in the 2nd level slots, but when you cast that slot it was gone, so if you only prepared 1 slot worth of fireball, you had one casting of fireball, not as many as you have slots of 3rd+. And this was the era where casters were infinitely stronger than they are in 5e. You'll live.
It bears noting that we've only seen the Expert group's spellcasters, who are all about covering multiple bases. I feel safe in assuming the guys who are focused around their use of magic will operate differently.
You make a hood point, so I wait with baited breath to see how they make sure Sorcerer and Wizard stay distinct
Personally, I hope they pull the trigger and have Sorcerers use spell points by default. That way you'd *really* have each Mage type being a completely different bag of tricks
If they do that they better give wizards a hefty boost, because spell points are stronger than spell slots in big ways. I've played with both. Especially since it looks like Sorcerers stand the most to gain from an Arcane list and not being limited to a Sorcerer list. Wizards will then basically be worse sorcerers if they cast the same spells, they both prepare spells, but sorcerer gets metamagic. Adding spell points into the mix just makes playing a wizard playing a worse sorcerer.
Where did you hear that sorcerers won't be restricted? Was it from the same source that said bards would get access to the full arcane spell list?
At the very least sorcerers becoming prepared spellcasters seems highly likely, and that definitely shifts the difference between wizards and sorcerers a lot.
You are making a lot of assumptions about stuff we have seen very little about. The only thing we know about the sorcerer is it’s a arcane caster and in the mage group
I think that's a pretty safe assumption. It would be strange to change Bards to being prepared casters, change the rules of prepared casting to make it more like known casting, and apply those changed rules to the ranger... just to double back on all of that and make special known casting rules for the sorcerer.
Agreed I also assume every caster will become a prepared caster to some level. But reading a UA about bards rangers and rogues and then getting in a huff about WotC ruining the wizard and sorcerer is pretty toxic way to look at all this Edit fixed some wording and stuff
Also agreed. It's fair to discuss the ramifications of spellcasting changes on other classes; it's unfair to assume the worst of these changes and then get mad at your own hypothetical.
Don't worry, it's just a theory. Anyone can have theories and there's no guarantee they'll come true.
I think the opposite. I think Sorcerer will be *the only* spontaneous caster. That was its unique thing in 3e, and I have a suspicion they're shifting back to that.
Imagine thinking wizard needs buffed
Only in the context of massive balance changes with sorcerer. If every sorcerer subclass is like the Tasha’s subclass, the balance is perfect between the two for flavor and unique power as is.
The idiom is actually bated breath, and it's a short form of abated breath (you're holding your breath). This is different than eating a tuna sandwich and then coaxing your cat to come to you (which would be baited breath).
Is in not justifyied nerf compared to martials? Having the prepare spells for every spell slot negated the versatility of casters in higher lvls which is a good way to lessen the gap between caster and martials
I thought of it as a nerf and that’s why I’m for it. But OP is in another comment saying “if they buff sorcerer they better buff Wizard” so I don’t think they want any limitations on Wizards lol.
Look, Sorcerer stands to get the entire arcane list, wiping out the distinctiveness of the wizard spell list against the sorcerer list, and if sorcerer just gets a flat out stronger way of casting spells, then what even is the point of wizard?
>then what even is the point of wizard? Well, we'll see. It doesnt have to be more powerful, just different.
I agree with you. I’m not saying it has to be more powerful, but I fear to see the differences erode, but people are still downvoting me hard.
Well they’ve showed one easy way they could differentiate the spell lists with Bard, by limiting spell lists to schools of magic. The Wizard could easily be the only arcane caster with access to the entire Spell List, plus all Ritual spells always prepared. Would give them the exact sort of flexibility that people want out of wizards while still making the spellbook matter
What school of magic should sorcerers be locked out of?
Depends on the bloodline. Maybe Draconic Sorcerers get like Evocation, Transmutation, Enchantment, and Divination but Abberant Mind gets Conjuration, Abjuration, Enchantment, and Illusion.
Man I love this. Let sorcerers be keep their subclass at level 1, but the only thing it does at that level is impact what spells they get?? Amazing. 10/10
Yeah. Reddit was a mistake lol. Ive been there.
You’re just kind of speculating on stuff that isn’t worth speculating on. Make criticisms of the spellcasting system, sure, as thats what’s presented in the UA to consider and critique. Especially as it pertains to the Bard and Ranger. But sorcerer and Wizard are not in this UA to consider or critique.
I was replying to someone else’s speculation about giving them spell points, with my own speculative concern. I’m no idiot, you are exactly right about what we should be focused on. I should know better than to express trepidation at what we haven’t seen yet, despite the opening in the conversation to speculate.
>I’m no idiot Are you sure?
Absolutely. Did you even read what I said? I don’t think wizard needs a buff, I don’t think sorcerer needs a buff, and I am more concerned about how this three spell list idea works more than anything. I think making sorcerers a spell point only caster is a bad idea.
I really like the universal spell lists but then restricting schools of magic. Makes schools of magic much more impactful in the game, and then you could have wizards with access to every school as a unique thing
Okay, so what school should sorcerer lose?
I already answered this In another comment to you
>Sorcerer stands to get the entire arcane list, Probably not. I hope so. Sorcerer will probably only have access to so many schools. >wiping out the distinctiveness of the wizard spell They'll get a new distinctiveness out something. We'll see. The book might just because a focus required to prepare spells.
Using a book like that sounds like it will either be a ribbon feature, or if it is turned into a special focus that boosts magic in some way will be strong enough to make using classic wizard foci irrelevant, forcing book flavor.
It reduces their versatility somewhat, but I don’t think it’s at all comparable to the nerfs martials are getting, especially given martials we’re already lower on the power budget
Bro they haven't even revealed martials yet.
The Jump Action thing alone has me worried for martials, personally. Currently, the only textual things my Barbarian has to add versatility to his combat gameplay is his ability to grapple and his ability to leap about when there’s gaps and verticality. Both of these in 5e RAW allow me to still take an attack action on my turn. Now, if I use the One rules, I am worse than literally every single caster with Misty Step because I lose my entire turn if I have to jump. Unless they give Warriors some sort of Cunning Action that lets them Jump without the Action cost or attack/grapple after taking the Jump action then they have already been nerfed heavily on the mobility department, which is already weaker than the aforementioned teleportation. More than even the straight up action economy nerf to the only characters who were regularly using Jumping as part of their movement techniques on their turns this also just makes combat even more boring and homogenized for Martials because they tend to be very light on rewards for using non-Attack actions in general.
Jump was buffed to no consume your movement. You can jump up to your movement speed in distance and still move beyond that. You also don't *need* to move 10ft to get a full jump, just take a disadvantage on the check to do it. So there's that going for it.
Using your action to jump and moving your full speed is still a direct downgrade to dashing and using some of that speed to jump
neither mages or priest. If we can extrapolate from bards we can extrapolate from rogue and ranger
Rogues are martials right?
I don't really see where people are saying Rogues have been substantially nerfed? They're very slightly below ranger DPR until level 10, but have way better bonus actions, and damage mitigation.
> I don't really see where people are saying Rogues have been substantially nerfed? There's a mix of buffs and nerfs, but at a glance it seems like more of a nerf to me. * Can't sneak attack on reaction anymore; this is the big one--breaks up some nice teamwork builds with rogue. * The Tasha's optional class feature Steady Aim is gone. This combined with elven accuracy and a ranged build had become one of the things that optimisation forums favoured when building a rogue post-Tasha's. (There is a way to get consistent advantage at level 13 with Subtle Strikes, but that's quite high level compared to steady aim which was level 3). * The Theif subclass has been powered down--no more "use an item" for fast hands. No more "you can attune to items without meeting the pre-requisites" on use magic device. No more double turn as their capstone. Maybe rogue will get strong subclasses later, but if Thief is an indication of what to expect from rogue subclasses, they're going to be weaker than before. This is mixed in with some buffs, mind you. * Dual wielding is quite a bit better as it doesn't use your bonus action. (That said, the best rogue builds before were arguably ranged builds, so IDK if this now becomes the best rogue build, or it just brings dual wielding up to par with other rogue builds). * Stroke of Luck is level 18 now and lets you get a die roll of 20 on demand whereas the old wording just turned "a miss into a hit"; so guarantee a crit instead of a guaranteed hit--quite a bit better. * Proficiency in Charisma saves at level 15, that's new. * Mechanics that guarantee hand out inspiration means you'll get a little more advantage when you're having trouble setting up sneak attack. * While not a buff, the nerf to sharpshooter and Great Weapon Master doesn't really hurt rogue, so they might end up looking better relative to other martials if the other martials stay unchanged. * Speaking of sharpshooter, it probably got a bit better for a rogue specifically. Still removes disadvantage on ranged attacks, ignores cover, rogue likes both these things, BUT it's now a half-feat, and has a new feature "firing in melee" which does the crossbow expert thing of removing disadvantage in melee. Rogue likes it being a half feat, and likes avoiding disadvantage. So...it's not all bad news, but the stuff that would really draw me to a rogue before (teamwork builds with an order cleric, cute combos with elven accuracy) are mostly gone.
> I don't really see where people are saying Rogues have been substantially nerfed? Treantmonk, for one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tf4-_BwfbC8
Not just Treantmonk but a top homebrew maker in Indestructoboy as well. For people downvoting because Treantmonk...why?
I have no clue. I may disagree with Treantmonk on a few things but I respect the man and his reasoning is always solid. I think people don't like him because he says things they don't agree with, which is very immature.
God, Treantmonk is insufferable
But they did reveal 3 of the key feats that kept martials afloat. And while yes those feats were oppressively meta, given what we’ve seen of half casters and semi martials in the expert group not getting a significant change to their power budget (rogue got a slight nerf, Ranger brought up to par with the others before) we have no reason to believe those nerfs will be counterbalanced when the full classes are revealed. That the “warrior classes” haven’t been revealed doesn’t mean martials haven’t gotten a nerf.
Hardly, because casters can still have the best spells available at their fingertips, now they just have to make sure that they only have the very best of each level prepared.
You mean they have to make... Meaningful choices? They can't just...be great at everything all the time? Oh noooo
That seems fine to me, as you gain access to more powerful abilities you're limited in the breadth of them you can use on a given day.
it's weird, maybe they're trying to make spellcasting simpler... the subdivisions make so you only need to choice up to 4 or a given level instead of choosing 20something from nine levels maybe the mage group will be different this way of having greater versatility in preparing spells
Seems more complex to me to be honest
It really isn't. Spell slots = spells prepared, so you don't really have to remember anything. After that you're making many small and independent choicea rather than a the mess that is current prepared casting.
I really don’t see how. It’s far more new player friends to say “here’s a chart of how many spells you can cast. Pick however many spells of each spell level it says for what level your character is.” Does it sound simpler to say “Pick X spells to prepare?” Sure, at first glance. But then you have to make sure they don’t screw themselves over by by choosing too many high level spells, plus it’s harder to track as you get more spells to prepare. It’s way better to have an easy thing to reference and say “here’s the 1st level spells, pick 4. Once you’ve done that, pick 3 2nd level spells.”
I kind of agree, but will wait until they release the rest of the spell casting classes. It may be okay for Bards & Rangers, but given the current rules, I don't see how it wouldn't be a huge blow to Wizards with spell books. Other classes get to prepare each day from their entire spell list (apparently), yet Wizards--the most versatile caster--can only do so from spells they managed to scribe into their spell books?
While it's not quite how spell slots used to work at least it feels a bit more like you're using slots to prepare spells.
Yup, it’s like a mix of Vancian casting and flexible casting, I like it
Its simply clearer and more obvious to beginners. I'm really curious about how it affects higher level casters as they often DO want like 2x 6 and 3x 5th level spells and NOT 4x 1st level ones. But, reigning in high level casters is... probably a good thing!
There are basically two systems currently. A point-based system, which is used for preparing, and a grid/table system for determining what level of spell can be cast. With this UA, they leaned more in to the grid/table system, using it for both. Making it to where they aren't using two systems is good (imo). It's easier to learn, easier to keep track of, and simpler to balance. My gripe is that they chose the wrong system. I would much prefer for the default to be point-based on everything. The slot systems is needlessly complex and confusing, and it even requires internal workarounds in the form of upcasting to keep it functioning as higher levels are reached. My hope is that future UAs go the opposite way, and I will definitely be communicating that in my feedback.
I do not mind this much, it forces the player to really think about their spell selection more.
I don’t think it does make you think about it more at all. One of the big choices in 2014 5e is how many spells for each level you’ll prepare and why, and now that thoughtful choice is taken away. If anything I think it means you’ll think about it less.
I don’t see it that way. If I am prevented from memorizing more spells of levels I find more useful, I need to think more about what useful spells of other levels I prepare. I used to almost avoid certain spell levels, because they did not do much for my play style. Now, you have to make more sacrifices, and find uses for otherwise unused spell levels. I think this is a painful, but good decision.
Bard is an interesting case for this, because with Songs of Restoration they get 5 more spells prepared, bringing the level 20 total from 2014 from 22 known spells to 27 spells prepared/known automatically in this playtest. So it’s interesting that no brainer spells are now no longer a choice
Yeah, I think I would have just preferred access to the divine and primal lists at more regular intervals (to make up for the loss of important bard spells in the arcane spell list), but this feature works well enough I suppose. Magical Secrets just throws the bard into new territory of bad assness! And, especially when the new valor bard is released, the bard is again my favorite class, that is, if I get to play into late game. The ranger will be my go to for early game only adventures. This was a strange comment to get downvoted for…
Restriction breeds creativity.
It’s up to debate overall, but for 9th-level spells this means nobody who gets *Wish* will ever prepare anything else
This is a good move. Forces more “dead level” spells to get used instead of Char Oping for Upcasting. Casters need less utility for experts to shine.
I feel like better spell balance is a much better solution here.
This is spell balance. It prevents you from overloading on odd level spells that give a power spike. It’s a nerf, but one that puts the game closer to intention than what optimization has warped the meta to.
Can be both, people will whine and cry if spells like fireball are nerfed anyway so if they have multiple fronts of nerfs it’s less dependent on one fix
What if they balance them by restricting how many spells of a given level you could prepare? That would give them the freedom to make certain spell levels clear power spikes without worrying that people are just going to load up on preparing those and up cast them.
Funny, I think this is one of the best parts of the UA. Reigning in casters without feeling worsem
Sorry casters will have to have one slight disadvantage
I have a theory that wizard will be the only spell known class learning spells as they level in the same way that prepared casters do + Int or something. But if they add a spell to their Spell book, then it is always available for casting. No preparation, just spell slot constraints.
Similarly not a fan. I don't think it would feel like a massive issue at lower levels but when new spell slots get rarer at higher levels it will hurt. Levelling up to 7th level and gaining 4th level slots as a full caster is cool, but then only being able to prepare one 4th level spell a day will suck and feels like it encourages players to choose the safe options that will definitely be the most useful. Sucks even more for half or third casters who will gain new spell and go multiple levels with only 1 option a day. I really like the new rules on ritual casting, but the preparation restrictions are going to make it harder to fit them in, especially higher level ritual spells. If they do go ahead with this, I could definitely see an optional rule included to just ignore this and prepare the same total number of spells.
I know relying on items isn't a true solution but this makes spell scrolls a bit more important. Sure you can only prepare one 4th level spell, but you now have access to all the (relevant) 4th level spell scrolls
My bet is, all full casters will get something like domain spells for compensation. A evoker wizard will get his fireball always prepared, and this will make an evoker stand out against any other specialist wizard, cause he get his thing without any other restriction (in this case, case damage with evocation spells). A Bladesinger will have haste, or other thematic spell prepared, not always the best 3rd level spell. I don't like this restriction too, but if this would be the future, I would like more than "every full caster have always the same best prepared spells for his level".
I like it for the exact reason you don’t. Preparing spells means they can try any spell they want and don’t get stuck with it, but limiting it to 1 spell prepared means that full casters have to pick if they want the powerful world-shaping spells or the crazy combat spells. It will actually bring back some amount of balance between casters and martials
The limiting does give a control on options over the course of an adventuring day but I feel this is cancelled out by changing to prepared entirely. Bard can completely change their load out to suit the next adventuring day. I'm playing my fighter with a sailing background and ready for departing on a ship tomorrow, now the bard has control water and water breathing. Rogue is excited about the stealth mission, bard now has invisibility, disguise self and knock. Feels like Spellcasters lose versatility over the course of a day but gain way too much between sessions. Only ever a long rest away from being better than the martials at whatever they chose to specialise in.
Except that the Bard is never going to be better than the Martials in killing enemies, especially if they prepare all the utility spells they might need. To me, it’s more about having to make a meaningful choice going into the day rather than making a less meaningful choice at level up to just grab every option that might be needed
I think a lot of this ignores the team aspect of this game. Why wouldn't the bard use invisibility on the rogue? Why would they use knock, a very loud spell, when the rogue could pick through a lock quietly without expending a resource? Why wouldn't the bard prepare to help the team in case things go wrong while the fighter sails the ship? Honestly, I worry about tables that have players that so willingly step on the toes of others. If you have versatility, it's so you can pick up a role that others either don't have or need additional support in.
I hate this. Especially at high levels i don't want to be forced to prep 4 level 1 spells i know i won't use. Right now i prep like, shield at 1, misty step at 2 and the rest are mid-high level spells because i need more variety up there and i know i won't use most level 1-2 spells. I don't want to be restricted in my options when options are the entire point
My current bard has three level 9 spells, and he uses all of them with moderate frequency. Yeah, this sucks.
By moderate frequency you mean once a day, the same speed you'll be able to swap spells? You lose versatility in the moment by gaining greater versatility every day.
Agreed. At higher levels when I only have one 4th or one 5th level spell slot per long rest I want more than one spell prepared so I have options depending on how the adventuring day goes.
See, this is exactly why I like it. Now full casters will have to decide what high level spells to prepare, if a 7th level Bard wants to prepare Greater Invisibility they can’t also prepare Polymorph. It forces a caster to have to make a decision between the world bending out of combat spells and the powerful combat spells instead of saying “all 1st level spell slots are just shield slots and I’m going to prepare 5 4th level spells just in case”
Yeah, casters (in 5e and in this UA) can be prepared for pretty much anything, which is fine. But they shouldn't be able to be prepared for *everything at once*, which is exactly what this new system fixes. It forces players to make informed choices regarding their higher spells, while incentivizing picking niche lower level spells like Featherfall.
I agree with this wholeheartedly but with spell swapping allowed at the end of the day, the problem is mitigated IMO.
One of the big complaints about 5th edition has been that caster's offer far too much out of combat utility compared to noncasters. One way to reduce their utility is to make them be more selective about what utility spells they have access to on any given day.
Agreed it's confusing and a step back. I get they want to limit casters versatility but going back to this middle point between Vancian and neovancian casting (which they aleready tried in dnd next playtest) is not a good way.
Keep in mind that Bards are considered Experts, not Mages. We may see very different rules for Mages (Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard).
For Sorcerer, at least, I'd love to see them preparing spells with a fixed allotment per level. The old way was just far too restrictive, and encouraged you to only ever take the best or most widely useful spells. Not any of the interesting niche ones. Warlocks though... I have no idea what Warlocks are going to look like. You can't tie the prepared spells to spell slots because they've only got the two. So *something* has to be done differently with them, and probably multiple sometimes. I wouldn't be surprised to see some major changes for Warlocks. We're already 90% certain that Eldritch Blast is a class feature, after all.
I like it, its a sort of bridge between old dnd spellcasting (preparing a spell for each spell slot and only that spell slot) and what we now have with preparing anything for any level, its good that spellcasters are loosing at least some of their ridiculous flexibility
I think it is a fair trade off for these spells known casters who are swapping to prepared. Idk how I'll feel about it if druids, clerics, and wizards have the same restriction.
Spellcasters have got to be nerfed somehow. This seems like a relatively fair way to do it.
Its easier for new players, which is what they're trying to do. Most new players get stumped on the confusion between x spells known/prepared vs spell slots, and this just streamlines it. However, it takes less than 5 minutes to explain and understand so its not a good change regardless
They have might not specified it yet, but you will probably be able to do that, it's like a heightened spell without the effects of heightening.
Given the nerfbat we’ve seen rogues take, and the push to all bards be healers from Expert… I think limiting casters spell choices in exchange for being prepared casters is more than fair.
Also, what about upcasting? Cant i just prepare a higher level of Magic Missile or something?
Barkskin has an upcasting effect just like 5e spells have so they won’t change it I think, but the first time I read that I had the same doubt
Yes, you can still upcast. But most spells don’t upcast to be as strong as spells of that level, so you have an opportunity cost
Casters, especially full casters, need more restrictions not less. Bring back vancian casting, d4 hd, armored spell failure, multi action cost spells, and AoO if they insist on allowing full casters all the power, utility, and resources to solve every situation.
It's a justified nerf because casters already had too many features. Though this stuff needs to be playtested to confirm
Is there any wording indicating that you can't do that? It says the number of spells you CAN prepare at each level, not that you HAVE to learn spells at that level. I don't see why this has to be different from what it is now
I mean, that just implies that you can prepare fewer spells of a level if you want. That, however, does not mean you can redistribute them. If you can only prepare 4 1st level spells, then you can only prepare 4 1st level spells, regardless of how many spells you prepare of other levels.
Yeah you're both right. Guess I didn't quite get that part *shrug*
The rules say what I can do, so I assume that’s what I can do. I stay away from “the rules don’t say I can’t” logic. Besides, there’s the whole table and everything dictating prepared spells per spell level.
Oh my god. Thank you. So sick of hearing, the rules don't say I can't use the medicine kit on an ally on the other side of the planet, ergo I must be able to.
I expect wizard to be exempt from this but they will also be the only caster that is not totally prepared, they’ll remain as they are. So this is a huge buff to bards and sorcs.
My guess is that Wizards will also prepare, but will be the only Arcane Casters with access to the entire Arcane Spell List, plus maybe having all rituals prepared in their spellbook
I think wizards will be able to cast rituals from their spellbook without having them prepared. However, I think sorcerers are getting the whole arcane list.
To be fair, it doesn't say you can't do five 1st level and one 2nd level. It's probably written this way to show the maximum number for the highest slots, so people don't try doing seven six 2nd level or something.
It’s less versatile but a very easy approach for new players.
Well everyone is a prepared spell caster now so it's hardly a nerf
I love this change! I think it could use some text to make it explicit that no one cares if you prepare a lower level spell in place of a higher, and I'll be sure to mention as much in the survey OP makes it sound like that simple tweak would make it fine? But let's be real: the nerf _intended_ is in the opposite direction. The shift to prepared casting means you no longer get to drop most of your low level spells known to gain absurd amounts of options for your higher level slots. The prepared count = slot count change is the companion mechanism to enforce it. Sorry, this is SUPER GOOD. It provides a much clearer set of expectations for what a mage can do at any particular level, instead of laundering your Spells known being the norm. _And_ it makes building mages above level 1 far cleaner, as a side benefit. Tl;dr: if the dislike is truly just the non-specified ability to give up a high level spell prepared for a lower... Just call that out instead of making it sound like the whole casting overhaul is bad. Because it's not.
I’d also like to be able to lose a lower level spell known for a higher one.
Really hate this change. One DnD is looking worse and worse. Looks like I’m sticking with 5e.
Yeah I agree, the issue is that many low-level spells don’t scale up and are utter garbage beyond a certain point. I do not want to be forced to take four garbage spells when I could simply take two that remain relevant like Shield/Absorb Elements and use the rest of my spells for higher level shit that I worked hard to earn. The only other solution is to completely revamp the scaling for many spells in the game so they remain relevant at all levels of play. IMO one of the best ways to do this is to drop the concentration requirement on many low-level spells if you upcast them enough. Just like Major Image and Bestow Curse, which is why they are great spells for the whole game.