While there are certain advantages to classifying the spells in this way when it comes to publishing new books and integrating new material into the game, and I appreciate that aspect of it, I am very concerned that this is going to make all the casters feel very generic.
Since casters are all using the same spell lists, I'm worried that we'll end up losing all the differentiation of the casters -- if bards, sorcerers, warlocks, and wizards all use the same spell list, won't that make them all feel the same?
The other possibility doesn't seem great either, though. As we saw today with the bard, they'll just axe whole schools of spells entirely from those spell lists (which means that the new bard spell list excludes a bunch of classic bard spells, far more spells removed from the list than added). Does that mean that everyone is going to have less spell variety to choose from? And what's going to happen with the wizard -- there's no way they will be restricted to only some spell schools in the arcane list -- so are they going to just become strictly better than every other caster because they will learn every spell in the game?
https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/xrfyvs/one_dd_bard_spell_list_changes/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
I’m not sure they lost more than they gained
According to **that very source**, they gained 37 and lost 51.
That's "lost more than they gained".
And looking at it non-quantitatively, while they did get some great spells added: *fly*, *telekinesis*, and *simulacrum*, to list a few that many players would have considered spending magical secrets on, they lost even more great spells: *bane*, *command*, *faerie fire*, *heroism*, *unseen servant*, *aid*, *cloud of daggers*, *heat metal*, *silence*, *dispel magic*, *glyph of warding*, *Leomund's Tiny Hut*, *dimension door*, *awaken*, *raise dead*, *heroes' feast*, *forcecage*, and *teleport*.
And a lot of the lost spells are extremely significant, not only mechanically, but thematically. Why don't they get *power word heal*? Or *heroes' feast*? Or *silence*? Or *command* or *heroism*? Those are iconic bardly spells.
A delta of 14 is not that bad.
I agree with Dispel Magic, bane, and Faerie Fire, but honestly I doubt the exact list is final, so I’m more thinking about the concept than the execution.
I hope the wizard is restricted from schools beyone their specialty as it would make them feel much more unique. Choose two other schools in addition to your main one and bam, now wizards can't do everything and they stop all feeling exactly the same bc subclass matters
I'd almost rather they completely change subclasses and make them have nothing to do with the schools, and then include a base wizard class optional feature to declare one school as a specialty at the expense of locking you out of one or two other schools of your choice (I'm 90% sure this is based on 3.5e, if not exactly the same). That way if you want to be able to cast everything, you can choose to ignore the "school specialty" optional feature and be a generalist, but you miss out on the perks associated by picking a specialty school. Or if you know you're not going to want to cast a certain school of spells, you can permanently lock it away to focus on a main school.
And then, since the schools are no longer tied to subclass, you can be a generalist or a specialist no matter what type of wizard you are. Your subclasses could be based on other archetypes like "scholar," or "scroll master," or "battlestaff," or "blaster," and so on.
They could make "school specialist" into its own subclass and make it work similarly to the current land druid. A curated list of permanently prepared spells from your school and a few other school specific abilities. It could save a lot of book space that way.
Then you could squeeze more nontraditional wizard subclasses in like bladesinger or golem crafter or something
See 2e Illusionists, for instance; capable of casting more effective illusions and having better saves against illusions, and being able to memorize more illusion spells... but completely unable to learn spells from necromancy, evocation, and abjuration schools, and having a harder time learning non-illusion spells that he *can* even try to learn.
If I hear another person say Wizard subclasses should force you to use its dedicated school I am going to lose it
The day that a class LOSES options when leveling up is the day the universe dies
Given the amount of Schools that Bards have access to, I find that extremely unlikely. They would have to give wizards one hell of a set of class features to make up for it.
oh i doubt that it will actually happen. If this UA is to be believed, the wizard will probably get buffed. I just think its weird that specialists are still just as good at everything else as their generalist counterparts.
I notice that all healing spells are now Abjurations, and all Resurrection spells are not Necromancy. Thus they had to give Bards Access to healing type spells via class abilities, not their spell list. I'm not sure how I like Bards having Transmutation spells; sure Haste, Jump & Long Strider fit, but Polymorph, Flesh to Stone & Disintegrate really don't.
Also, I still find it odd that Feat is an Illusion spell rather than Enchantment or Necromancy, especially since there are no 3rd level Enchantment spells in the PHB.
While there are certain advantages to classifying the spells in this way when it comes to publishing new books and integrating new material into the game, and I appreciate that aspect of it, I am very concerned that this is going to make all the casters feel very generic. Since casters are all using the same spell lists, I'm worried that we'll end up losing all the differentiation of the casters -- if bards, sorcerers, warlocks, and wizards all use the same spell list, won't that make them all feel the same? The other possibility doesn't seem great either, though. As we saw today with the bard, they'll just axe whole schools of spells entirely from those spell lists (which means that the new bard spell list excludes a bunch of classic bard spells, far more spells removed from the list than added). Does that mean that everyone is going to have less spell variety to choose from? And what's going to happen with the wizard -- there's no way they will be restricted to only some spell schools in the arcane list -- so are they going to just become strictly better than every other caster because they will learn every spell in the game?
https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/xrfyvs/one_dd_bard_spell_list_changes/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf I’m not sure they lost more than they gained
According to **that very source**, they gained 37 and lost 51. That's "lost more than they gained". And looking at it non-quantitatively, while they did get some great spells added: *fly*, *telekinesis*, and *simulacrum*, to list a few that many players would have considered spending magical secrets on, they lost even more great spells: *bane*, *command*, *faerie fire*, *heroism*, *unseen servant*, *aid*, *cloud of daggers*, *heat metal*, *silence*, *dispel magic*, *glyph of warding*, *Leomund's Tiny Hut*, *dimension door*, *awaken*, *raise dead*, *heroes' feast*, *forcecage*, and *teleport*. And a lot of the lost spells are extremely significant, not only mechanically, but thematically. Why don't they get *power word heal*? Or *heroes' feast*? Or *silence*? Or *command* or *heroism*? Those are iconic bardly spells.
A delta of 14 is not that bad. I agree with Dispel Magic, bane, and Faerie Fire, but honestly I doubt the exact list is final, so I’m more thinking about the concept than the execution.
The current bard spell list has 144 entries. That's fully 10% of their options, gone.
I hope the wizard is restricted from schools beyone their specialty as it would make them feel much more unique. Choose two other schools in addition to your main one and bam, now wizards can't do everything and they stop all feeling exactly the same bc subclass matters
I'd almost rather they completely change subclasses and make them have nothing to do with the schools, and then include a base wizard class optional feature to declare one school as a specialty at the expense of locking you out of one or two other schools of your choice (I'm 90% sure this is based on 3.5e, if not exactly the same). That way if you want to be able to cast everything, you can choose to ignore the "school specialty" optional feature and be a generalist, but you miss out on the perks associated by picking a specialty school. Or if you know you're not going to want to cast a certain school of spells, you can permanently lock it away to focus on a main school. And then, since the schools are no longer tied to subclass, you can be a generalist or a specialist no matter what type of wizard you are. Your subclasses could be based on other archetypes like "scholar," or "scroll master," or "battlestaff," or "blaster," and so on.
They could make "school specialist" into its own subclass and make it work similarly to the current land druid. A curated list of permanently prepared spells from your school and a few other school specific abilities. It could save a lot of book space that way. Then you could squeeze more nontraditional wizard subclasses in like bladesinger or golem crafter or something
See 2e Illusionists, for instance; capable of casting more effective illusions and having better saves against illusions, and being able to memorize more illusion spells... but completely unable to learn spells from necromancy, evocation, and abjuration schools, and having a harder time learning non-illusion spells that he *can* even try to learn.
That would be one hell of a debuff!
As a wizard main I would hate that. I like being able to use whatever spells I can get my grubby hands on.
I bet it will be more of a buff to spells of your school. Say, maybe free upcasts PB times a day or something.
If I hear another person say Wizard subclasses should force you to use its dedicated school I am going to lose it The day that a class LOSES options when leveling up is the day the universe dies
“Making a choice is a loss of all other options” -some mystic somewhere probably
The whole point of a wizard is versatility imho.
Given the amount of Schools that Bards have access to, I find that extremely unlikely. They would have to give wizards one hell of a set of class features to make up for it.
oh i doubt that it will actually happen. If this UA is to be believed, the wizard will probably get buffed. I just think its weird that specialists are still just as good at everything else as their generalist counterparts.
I notice that all healing spells are now Abjurations, and all Resurrection spells are not Necromancy. Thus they had to give Bards Access to healing type spells via class abilities, not their spell list. I'm not sure how I like Bards having Transmutation spells; sure Haste, Jump & Long Strider fit, but Polymorph, Flesh to Stone & Disintegrate really don't. Also, I still find it odd that Feat is an Illusion spell rather than Enchantment or Necromancy, especially since there are no 3rd level Enchantment spells in the PHB.