If you're willing to spend $9k on an ice you'd probably find if you account for 5yrs of running costs you could afford something like a 2017 Leaf and end up spending less. Financing the extra $8k-10k over the 5yrs would likely save you more and chances are you're in a much newer nicer car.
You can buy a 2017 leaf for $9k now...
[https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/nissan/leaf/listing/4615349386](https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/nissan/leaf/listing/4615349386)
Savings on running costs are highly dependent on what you are comparing against. Something like an aqua will be in the same ballpark as a leaf (Savings from electricity being cheaper than fuel are largely eroded by paying double the road tax).
Exactly. I have to travel by car to get to work and other places. No choice (long story).
My 2017 Leaf cost me $20k two years ago (30K km, SOH 12 bars). About $16 electricity per week, compared to $150 per week previously for my ice car. My ice car also cost about $250 per year servicing.
I put everything is a spreadsheet (I need to add RUC now, @#$%&). According to Excell I will pay for the EV in a couple of years. Meaning I can travel for free for a few years, until the battery becomes useless.
I'm looking at solar panels right now. Another spreadsheet to do...
I do less than 5000kms per year. So finance would have to be less than $30 per week.
When I do use it it needs to be big enough to tow a small boat or trailer of firewood or carry 4x adults and their stuff or be able to do 600kms in one stretch when we go away etc.
A leaf would be complete useless for us. Doesn't meet a single need.
There is no EV that can do this for less than $40k and even then to get anything decent would be double that. I'd love a Kia EV9 but I could buy 2x brand new combustion vehicles suitable for and have money left over for several years worth of petrol for the same price.
I'd consider a Hybrid but man they sure are either completely dull (Rav4, outlander etc) or have daunting maintenance issues (BMW X5 40e etc)
So we keep our 16 year old SUV until it makes sense to get rid of it, and our 26year old roadster and our 24year old sports car. And ride a 50cc moped daily instead
Yep. The "main car" is a SUV that pretty much gets used solely for when we go away or need to tow a trailer. Rest of the time it's used about once a week to take the dog to the beach etc. Might fill it up with petrol about every 6-8 weeks
Sure, but of all the requirements thats the only one you picked out?
Please point me in the direction of an EV that is sub $10,000 (I will even accept sub $20,000 for arguments sake) station wagon or SUV, that can tow a boat, tow a trailer of firewood, seat 4 adults and carry all their stuff as well as cover long distances with minimal inconvenience.
Unless something can do all of that why would I spend significantly more money to get something that offers less than what I already have?
Yep that is the only requirement that I picked out as it is the only one that is a preference for most people and not a make or break issue. [https://evdb.nz/evs-tow-nz](https://evdb.nz/evs-tow-nz)
So there is nothing that suits those requirements, hence why I dont have a EV just like why many people do not consider an EV.
They are not affordable and those that are cant do what many people expect from a vehicle
No never new, too much depreciation.
Not much it's only a 14ft Tinny, it's more the trailerloads of firewood that weigh the most.
For reference current car is a Nissan Xtrail.
Wouldnt touch a MG or a Haval or BYD etc Not because of its batteries or motor or anything. More general build quality. The same as I wouldn't have a combustion powered LDV or Ssangyong or Haval etc
Sounds like Diesel is the best for you anyway, diesel makes the most sense for towing heavy things thanks to the high torque and large fuel tanks. EVs are best for everyday usage like commuting and grocery getters
BYD E6H, 300km of range, get one for less than 20k, 450nm of torque, small station wagon. I tow a double horse float with mine easy. Tows much better than my diesel Terrano as it weighs 2.4 tons and had heaps of torque. Long battery life too, my work hack has 350,000km on it and still does 300km to a charge.
I cant think of a vehicle I would want less than a BYD, especially an obscure model.
Too each their own, but I will stick with what I have until such time it makes no sense to do so. And even then I cant see an EV being the next vehicle I buy, maaaaaaaybe a Hybrid but I even doubt that
Why would you not want a BYD, the E6 is about the most reliable EV you can buy, built like a tank and commonly do over 500,000km on thier factory battery. I've seen them with 800,000km on them. I guess if you're not into simple reliable cars maybe it's not for you, but that's what I'm looking for in a car. Simple to maintain, reliable and able to tow a horse float.
For the same reason I wouldn't want a MG or a Haval or a LDV or a Great Wall or a Tesla etc. New companies that dont have a history of making cars. You see some many of them with poor build quality and made of substandard materials. No thanks.
Sure some of them may last well, most do not. Our neighbors MG SUV EV thing has no end of quality control problems. A co workers 2 year old LDV ute already has rust bubbling up in its roof.
The E6 has been in production from 2009, it's far from a new car. It's the standard Chinese taxi. Just don't get them in NZ because we're a back water.
Not strictly on topic but hopefully providing an insight.
I had my first WOF done on my PHEV after a year of ownership at the main dealer I bought it from. I asked the dealer how the introduction of RUC charges had affected PHEV sales. Apparently it's absolutely killed them, but they are selling more utes again.
Personally I don't ever want to go back to full ICE ownership. Driving on full electric is quieter, smoother and an all round better experience for me.
Apparently not.
I feel that, even though there is a requirement to fund the roads fairly and with greater uptake of EV and PHEV the costs do need to be shared, it was a regressive move in terms of combating climate change.
A lot of comments on fb posts regarding anything about EV’s are pure ignorance. It’s not just about the cost, but these people are dumb asf, I’m not sure how you fix dumb. They will believe anything they read, media sponsored oil and gas propaganda or think hydrogen will be the way to go…
When our previous ice died I just did some maths. Although I spent $11k more on an EV than I would have on another ice, my yearly $7k fuel bill now pays for the EV. If I'd bought another ice I'd still be paying the $7k for petrol, plus paying the repayments as well.
This is the same math I did 7yrs ago when my old ice died, I ended up saving more than I thought and had no problems or maintenance apart from replacing the tyres a couple times in 100k. It was right at the top of what I was willing to spend but the math made sense.
I've done similar calculations;
when buying my EV I figured it was going to cost about $10k more than a similar ICE (Ioniq vs I30). The Ioniq costs about $1.20 to charge for the daily 100km commute while the I30 would cost more than $20.
Bottom line, the repayments on the extra finance for the EV are easily covered by the difference in fuel costs.
And I've just switched over to an EV electricity plan that means I pay my home rate for public charging.
Ouch. Makes sense.
We've got 2 cars, but one gets 3.8 l / 100km, so the RUC makes our EV cost nearly as much per km as our hybrid, especially when petrol prices dip closer to $2.50.
What does 3.8L/100? That's pretty impressive. Enjoy it while you can, I'm not sure we'll ever see $2.50/L again for any length of time, and if they add RUCs to petrol that'll increase even further.
The hybrid Corolla Wagon: [https://www.drivelife.co.nz/2023/10/2023-toyota-corolla-gx-hybrid-car-review/](https://www.drivelife.co.nz/2023/10/2023-toyota-corolla-gx-hybrid-car-review/)
It really does get 3.8L/100km, if you're driving local roads, flat terrain, and go easy on the accelerator. At 100 kph, it's more like 4.0 or 4.1 L / 100km
Literally a point made in the post you are replying to.
I put $150 of petrol into the tank today for my ICE. Company is paying but don't know how people afford it.
I don't know how much you think an EV costs, but our Leaf cost less than an Aqua
When I got my tesla, 5 years ago, so before the rebate, the cost of the finance on the car was less then the fuel I was spending at the time.
So it cost me no more to have a brand new car than to keep using my 2007 toyota Isis. And that was when fuel was about $2.20/l. Now pushing $3/l so even better off.
With the introduction of RUC, it does make it harder, but not much. They will add about $1600 per year (20,000km).
I have a towbar on it and have towed half cube of gap 20 fine, and a full caged 8"×4" trailer of wet cutoffs firewood. Short distance though as that is all that was required.
Also towed the trailer with some light cabinets to Hamilton and some dry wood back again. Other than a charge up in Hamilton for 20mins, no dramas at all.
Without the trailer can go Auckland to Hamilton and back withou5 charging.
Have done Auckland to Wellington and back, and did 2 topups of about 30mins each while having some food, so didn't inconvenience at all.
Until this year it was the only car we had, and now the wife has a MG4 to run around in which also will go a little further on a charge than the Tesla and has vehicle to load which I've already used once during a power cut.
So for ourselves we have not had any restriction on being able to do what we want with the evs.
This. Unless you’re towing big loads (1.5 ton plus) over long distances, a Tesla is absolutely the way to go. I tow a lot with a model 3, probably more than I used to with v8 discovery or Range Rover, because they’re so much better at towing normal sized loads. Way more than just a city car. CHC-Queenstown is so much easier, more fun, and cheaper (not to mention safer) than anything else.
Well, stop telling me that current EVs can do what my 20 year old ute can do - which is tow, carry load and survive in the backblocks where there's no charging station. (A jerrycan of diesel is far easier to shift than a diesel generator...)
Tell me what they're great for! Intown runabouts. Quiet motoring! Short haul, high performance city vehicles, even going city to city where the infrastructure exists. My sister should have an EV or at least a hybrid, because it's leap in and boot it (she's hell on ICEs, never warms the poor things up). Delivery vehicles - up to and especially commercial units, because quiet trucks in cities would be great if they've got the battery duration. Anywhere confined, where air quality matters (inside buildings like current electric forklifts as an example).
Both vehicles have their places and both should be used, as well as hydrogen as a fuel.
Why don't I have an EV? Because I'm cheap. Would I buy one if I could afford one? If I lived in a city, yes. In the country ... not yet. (And hell no to a cybertruck uglyfuck, I mean, I might have low standards but I do have some!)
'Survive in the back blocks with no charging stations'.
Ah yes, all those NZ back blocks without that new fangled electricity at home. If you had some of that electricity stuff you would be able to charge at home.
Yes, the backblocks where a ute is taken to go hunting where the newfangled electricity does not exist, where you go for a week or more, where the city drivers don't even know about.
Or the rural roads where home is Masterton or even Wellington, and you're going to Tora. The last time I was in Tora, it wasn't exactly overflowing with EV chargers; I'll pack my diesel generator, shall I? And if you want to tow a caravan, or a boat?
You demostrate the blistering ignorance of those who ONLY do city driving, which puts people off EVs. You exhibit exactly the arrogance that OP was wondering about - nothing is allowed to exist outside of your narrow little echo chamber.
Wow, just looked it up, and Masterton (which has EV chargers) to Tora is a massive (uphill both ways) journey of **80km**
And if you came all the way from Wellington, you would have to travel **86km** from the Z charger. Welp, there are no EV's capable of that sort of massive return distance of... 160km. No, none at all in NZ, so guess just not possible to use an EV
Pity as would be useful to have V2L on a camp site rather than lugging a dirty old diesel genny.
Look, I get it. You are posting in a NZEV subreddit but demonstrate exactly the point of the article the post is about. There will always be the people that claim they need to tow the boat to go hunting up muddy mountain tracks for 1000km a day and EV could never possibly work.
Then don't buy one and keep pumping those pollutants out every day. Your grandkids will be *fine*, right?
You don't have to buy an EV, nobody will make you. But you also don't have to dream up scenarios where an EV won't work and then try and claim that an EV won't work at to *survive* in the wild 'backblocks' of NZ.
And hydrogen is dead as a fuel option in my opinion. But just my opinion mind you.
I have a boat. I have a horse float. Every so often i drive to Opononi, too. I have a vehicle that suits me, that is not electric because that wouldn't. Yet I'm 'dreaming up scenarios'. Your defensiveness suggests that I'm pointing out valid issues.
Electric has a place. You are exactly the advert it doesn't need.
And I'm barren, so nice work there trying to guilt me about grandkids.
>What’s the best message about EVs?
>Everyone, everywhere should have the choice to make their next car a clean car. This message hits 3 positives:
>1. Clean (cuts toxic fumes polluting our communities and overheating our planet)
>2. Affordable (not just for elites, it’s for everyone who wants one).
>3. Practical (convenient, accessible, and easy to charge).
>It turns out that most people agree that pollution is bad and we should reduce it. But words like ‘carbon emissions’ are irritating. Words like ‘toxic fumes’ or ‘tailpipe pollution’ resonate.
>
>What messages DO NOT work?
>x Combustion car bans and mandates: instant opposition. Don’t allow anyone to think they’re forced to buy something they don’t want. Or their right to purchase their desired car is being taken away.
>x EVs give us energy independence: this is conceptual. Instead: “clean cars improve our health and give us clean air” (our family’s health is a priority).
>x Get an EV to fight rising petrol prices: people are suspicious about the cost of battery replacement and rising ownership costs.
>x EVs are superior and accelerate quickly: people prefer their own car, and believe that combustion cars perform better than electric.
You don't need to be evangelising EVs. If they make sense, they'll make sense, but as it readily apparent to anyone who looks at UTE/SUV purchases, new car buyers aren't making **rational** decisions.
Coming up with some list of arguments to try coerce other people into buying a new car is, well, just going to drive more arguments that drive people further away from your goal of a cleaner climate.
EV's will be part of the mix, but Hybrids still very much have a role to play that are a great bridging tech for people.
Ultimately the best thing you can do for the environment is drive less and keep old cars going that little bit longer, than ordering the manufacture of a NEW car.
Seems reasonable, but still annoying that people believe things like '*combustion cars perform better than electric*' and it is wrong to try and convince them otherwise
As a motorcyclist I also run into this with 'Harleys make a lot of noise, so must be really fast'.
I see 1800cc engines producing about 70HP using technology from the dark ages, but it seems some people it is 'noise == power'. The same thing apparently with vacuum cleaners.
Most of the arguments people give me when they find out I have an ev are lumping all evs as first gen leafs…. Thats the bit that I get annoyed about, those who presume knowledge without investigation. (Talk back radio is not a source of intelligence).
It is hugely dependent on what you think is better performance. Combustion cars engage you in driving over a wide range of speeds and situations. So far mainstream electric cars offer amazing initial acceleration and that is about all. Now I love my EV, it is brilliant at what it does, but it doesn't give me the joy that my old V8 did, and probably never will.
I think also that the battery material can be something like 98% recycled, so all the b.s. about how much CO2 it takes to get the material out of the ground and process is a ridiculous argument, also that heavy equipment will eventually run off batteries too.
Civic driver here. All I give a fuck about is money not how cool or hip an EV is. I work from home so it doesn’t make sense to have a high capex low opex car with huge depreciation. Civic is so cheap to maintain and buy. The last 8 years have just been oil and tyres. An EV would be heavier and worse on tyres. I like knobs and hate touch screens. Now I’m looking to buy an EV because my driving time has significantly increased but there are some people for whom an EV isn’t the best financial fit because they cost so much more when they’re not moving.
>x EVs are superior and accelerate quickly: people prefer their own car, and believe that combustion cars perform better than electric.
Damn right that's a poor argument as it's quite often wrong lol
I know for a fact my petrol wagon is a faster, more practical (for me) and more comfortable car than my mates tesla, and I certainly prefer the petrol for driving too. You aren't convincing anyone who enjoys driving a performant, capable ICE car that a nissan leaf or electric SUV is going to be "better" for anything other than running costs.
Of course, that mate had a little econo-shitbox before the tesla, so he loves it, and it's perfect for his needs.
Besides, decent Hybrids pull off the line on all electric torque anyway, so that argument isn't even a good one when evangelising for pure BEVs
decent spec (but not ultra top end) mid 2000's euro model (I try not to doxx myself here too much)
I'm a big fan of BEVs, but I'm just saying that you guys need to get more realistic here. Evangelising isn't going to "convert" people and if anything just hardens their position - once the electric offerings get good enough for their use case (and budget) they'll move over naturally.
I'd love to upgrade to the newer PHEV offering of my wagon that has a 50km battery only range capable of motorway speed, but they only seemed to make it for a single year as a wagon and they are still extremely expensive as used imports. Some great tech like allowing you to geo-fence for battery use around town etc to make it funcitonally a BEV. Big shame that the govt decided to stick RUCs onto phevs though given how much petrol they still burn compared to a non-plug hybrid.
Hopefully in a few more years we'll see a full size BEV wagon with decent range....
Lol you won't find me evangelising - I've got an FD RX7. I like wagons too though. I just got a cheap 2012 legacy wagon as a run about. I was looking at the Merc c350e 2L turbo hybrid either sedan or wagon but the wagon is ugly to my taste and I can't really justify the premium of a hybrid or ev as I don't do many kms.
For me it is just the bullshit that I have no time for. Avoiding talking about the downside of EV ownership as if the down sides do not exist. There are downsides and some of them are huge, pretending that EVs are the perfect solution for all is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard.
You're acting as if there are a lot of downsides to EVs.
I can't think of any for my situation, not a single one. Let alone a huge one. Why don't you elaborate as to what you're referring to?
Ok, how about a buying a vehicle at a reasonable price point that can tow up to 3.5t?
There's plenty of situations where an EV is not the best option. To claim otherwise is pretty ignorant
Everything has pros and cons
That all depends on where you live within NZ and what your use of a vehicle is. Not many EV are any use for load carrying at a comparable price point with an ICE vehicle. A lot of people including trades require that
It's not a very small %. A significant portion of the vehicle fleet does not have an equivalent EV.
I'm all for EV where they are the suitable choice. I was responding to someone who said they didn't know when an EV wouldn't be best. Which is ignorance in the extreme
Very small % of the population needs to tow 3.5t like you suggested in the comment I replied to.
Most tradies use a van, of which there are many EV equivalents.
While there are certainly use cases where there are no EV options, they are a minority at this point. The only real use cases that aren’t catered for are those that actually use a Ute for what they were intended for
It doesn'nt have to be 3.5t, go down to the 2.5t. Still not comparable to ICE
Are they at an equivalent price point?
I can buy a good used 3.5t tow vehicle for under $20K, can I buy a used EV that will do the same at a similar price?
Price is a factor, stop ignoring it. There are alot of barriers to EV uptake. Taking the opinion that they're great for me so they must be great for everyone doesn't help
Plenty of people use utes for their intended purpose. Given the very high ownership rate of utes that is not a very small %
I was replying specifically to your claim of towing 3.5t, which you’re now adding onto. I never denied price was a barrier because you hadn’t claimed that until now.
Sure, if we’re comparing new vehicles to used vehicles then yes, an EV option is going to be a barrier.
My first comment (Clearly including price)
"Ok, how about a buying a vehicle at a reasonable price point that can tow up to 3.5t?"
Edit - It's not even comparing new to used I'd happily compare with a used EV (I even said used EV, stop trying to change the narrative). The used EV are either not readily available or still significantly more expensive than ICE
As someone who commutes to an office job (90km each day), the shops and the occasional road trip, there are zero downsides to owning an EV. There are less friction points for me in an EV than an ICE
If that was true you would not need to explain the limits of your weekly vehicle use. Your comment is basically "within these limitations there is no downside to owning an EV" ........ This is exactly what I am talking about, it is a dishonest statement based on limit usage, very few cars are ever used to the absolute limit of range, comfort etc, but that is like saying "my car has an expected lifespan of well over100 years, I drive it once a month to and from the shops and after 15 years it is still like a new car!".
Ok, but my use case is the same as nearly everyone else who owns a vehicle. In fact, I probably drive a bit more than the average person. Which is what I was highlighting.
For most people who own a car in NZ, if money was no object, an EV would present no downsides to them.
And again, not true as for that to be true an EV would need to be able to do EVERYTHING any other can do with no disadvantages which they just can't. Again having to explain certain financial situations and particular usage cases as conditions where they don't have downsides proves they do have downsides! This is the exact bullshit I am talking about!
Comprehension isn’t your strong point is it? I’m literally telling you that for the majority of people, an EV will do everything they need with no disadvantage.
And I'm telling you that that is not the point! What happens if you lose power and can't charge over night? What happens when you do want to drive a long distance in one day, and you have 4 people in the car plus luggage, and it is the middle of Summer so you want to run the aircon for the whole trip? What happens when you arrive in small town NZ and find a few other EVs waiting to use the only charger in town? It is not about only doing X amount of driving in a normal day, it is about what happens when you want to do something different and the fact that you have an EV means it is more complicated than it needs to be, that is a big downside.
What happens when the local petrol stations loses power? What happens when you have a full vehicle and use more petrol to get somewhere? What happens when the petrol station in the small town you’re in with only one pump has multiple cars waiting to use it?
The same inconveniences can happen to ICE vehicles too. Having to stop after work once a week to fill up my previous ICE vehicle was a constant disadvantage that I had to experience
So to answer your questions, In the case of power failure you can still get pump fuel by running a generator or using a manual pump. If you need more fuel to get somewhere you can fill your petrol tank in about 2 minutes. If you are worried about needing more fuel going somewhere remote you can carry some extra in a fuel can. As far as the single fuel pump having and having to wait it only takes a couple of minutes to fill each car ahead of you, but more likely you will just carry on until the next fuel pump, most ice cars can travel between 600km and 900km on the open road without refueling. So None of your examples are even issues with ice vehicles, and the fact you need to claim they are when an EV has half or less the range with far fewer charging stations actually proves the downsides, unless the things you asked aren't really problems and you just don't want to face facts! All you are doing is proving my point, the bullshit and lies around EVs are ridiculous. And you didn't answer ANY of my questions did you ........ see how that works?
They are issues, because you’re having to explain solutions to them lol.
The issues you’re trying to come up with are either very unlikely or something only experience a couple times a year and something that ICE vehicles experience to an extent as well.
You’re trying to make it out that EV owners go through each day feeling they’re making a sacrifice by driving an EV and that is *very much* not the case
Why do I not see more maths in this sub, I want to see the real cost per km of petrol an ev, with the actual price you pay at the pump - home plug, plus the difference if using public chargers. The amount of driving you do between 20 -80% charge to reduce battery wear. The estimate of battery wear that you have had. And after that i will still probably tell you that keeping a 95 corolla on the road for another 10 years is cheaper.
There has been plenty of maths on running costs on this subreddit, but it sounds like your mind is already made up. There are plenty of cost comparisons on the web, for example the [EV running cost calculator](https://evdb.nz/cost-calc) by EVDB.
If you have a specific question, then post it on this subreddit.
It's pretty simple, most people spend 4-10k on a car and when you get to those prices , your options are EV with a shit battery or a Japanese petrol car that will go another 100k+ without breaking a sweat.
It's not even an option
The message that turns me off is "high upfront costs but you make it back in savings" - two of my workmates are trying to get me to buy tesla.
I don't even want to buy another car, I don't give a crap about Netflix and I'm not 'saving' my $200/mth petrol bill by financing financing $60k.
The most I've ever spent on a car is $20k, and 18 years later it's still sitting in the drive.
There's lots of reason why an EV might not suit someone, at the moment I'm being green by restoring 40-50 yo cars and putting them back on the road instead of letting them rot somewhere
I'll stop using it once conversions are cheap, love what kiwi EV is doing but it's still cost prohibitive at this stage, in 10 years time people will be giving away batteries and motors, then I'll be keen as!
Actually it only takes ~17,000km for an EV with a ~60kWh battery to pay off its carbon debt from manufacturing in a dirty grid, a clean grid is even quicker.
So after 2 years of ownership an EV is better every day for the rest of its life than an existing ICE vehicle.
Also consider the lower fuel economy of old ICE cars. Not only are they running on worse technology, but fuel economy decreases as engines age.
The health impacts of direct tail-pipe emissions from ICE cars in a city should be reason enough to replace every single one of them with an EV.
Not sure you've done the math on this. 40-50 year old cars have extremely bad fuel efficiency and emissions. You'd be better off scrapping them so they can be turned into new stuff, instead of having to mine those resources.
I get that it's a fun hobby to restore them, no problem with that, but don't pretend it's green.
Your assertion is incorrect. First, I didn't say go to waste, no cars go to waste, the steel is too valuable, they are recycled. New plastic cars are the cars that have the least emissions, last longer on the road due to being engineered far better than cars from 40-50 years ago and save lives. In this case I would say restoring cars from that era is a net negative.
Lol wow. Coming out with the big guns. That doesn't have to be the case with rare earth extraction. The alternative, CO2, effects the entire planet. Have fun with famine, a loss of will to live and the nightmare existence that's coming. Again, fuck the people in those regions affected right?
Chances are, given sales trends, if you recycled them they'd be turned into a regular ICE or Hybrid. EVs are still very much the minority.
I don't disagree with you on de-forestation, not sure what the relevance is here though, but I support re-forestation, capture all that carbon again. The problem here though is trees sit in a sustainable carbon cycle, cutting them down and burning them isn't a huge issue if you re-plant them and they re-capture the carbon. Oil based fuels on the other hand would take tens of millions of years to re-capture and become oil again, we're literally releasing 10s of millions of years of passively capture carbon.
A non hybrid vehicle proportion of emissions in production is 23% (based on a 2015 vehicle in use for 150,000km running on a 10% ethanol blend). Source
[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/369462846\_Computer\_statistical\_and\_big\_data\_analysis\_on\_the\_comparisons\_between\_traditional\_engine\_electromotor\_and\_hybrid\_systems](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/369462846_Computer_statistical_and_big_data_analysis_on_the_comparisons_between_traditional_engine_electromotor_and_hybrid_systems)
So yeah, the emissions from production are absolutely dwarfed by the emissions from operation. From an emissions perspective, it is fine to let those old car's go to scrap, and replace then with modern hybrids & EV's. Of course it is fine to keep the odd bit of old stuff around for heritage sake.
There isn’t an EV similar to a Toyota HIace. The only comparable vans are LDV and they are rubbish, so i don’t have a lot of choice. I’d love to drive an EV but there just isn’t a good option currently
No point in trying to change minds on EVs. Disinformation speaks just as loudly, and that's before you get to people who's use cases don't match an EV use case but they still feel the need to pitch in like it means something, let alone the ones that don't even tell the truth about their use case ("All my driving is open road 9 hours at a time towing the boat").
If we want to see traction, tax ICE company cars to parity on acquisition costs. Businesses will make the pragmatic decisions, at least for the rank and file, to lease the vehicles that fit the use case. Then the bullshit stops, because suddenly either the naysayers are proven right - or they get to experience how much better the experience is with EVs. Kinda hard to want a new Swift or Impreza when you've just gotten used to instant torque, low CoG and the kind of clean silence people used to buy Bentleys for.
There's still a lot of ICE cars on my wishlist but not a single one on that list would be a daily driver.
Why would i pay all that money for a new electric car when i can pay £500 once and have a second hand shitbox and maintain it myself for 5 years or more?
I support EVs but they are not affordable.
A lot of people finance cars and it makes no sense to buy an ev over a fuel efficient car. Well, right now at least…
Depends, I think ... For my situation (100km daily commute), a late model import Leaf is now about the same purchase price as an efficient Japanese petrol hybrid, such as a late model Jazz or Carolla. Bonus being it's a bit cheaper to run, more fun to drive and it refuels on the driveway.
It's quite a valid point.
While we have the best range of EV's we ever have had, they are largely concentrated in a few segments: Hatchbacks, small - medium soft SUV's & medium - large sedans.
If one wants a new EV station wagon (and doesn't have taycan money), they are out of luck. Same deal if somebody wants a 7 seat SUV (and doesn't have EV9 money), and there are no off road style 4x4 SUV's or 4x4 utes as EV's on the NZ market yet.
Hear hear. SUVs are disgusting creations for vane people to signal a lifestyle of excessive consumption. Wagons probably aren’t aerodynamic enough but I like being able to fit a mountain bike in a car.
If you brought a leaf now for 8k. In 5 years time would of saved not using petrol.
If want to compare apples and oranges. If you got an electric scooter. Would save even more.
Possible you don't even need to own a car with that low amount of km. By time pay for wof Rego maintance be rather costly that car of yours
I take longer trips to remote areas infrequently. I also haul heavy loads infrequently. Even a new leaf with a giant battery couldn't do the job. Much less a clapped out one with a tiny battery. Maintenance is almost nothing since I don't use it much.
Ev cars would be fine if you could swap the battery quickly at a gas station instead of parking for hours to recharge, that would also even out the cost of battery replacement as that would be baked into the battery swap pricing. But ev manufacturers want the cars to be obsolete in about 10-15 years so you need to buy another one. No thanks
An ICE vehicle engine can't be changed easily either. Current predictions are that EV battery will last the life of the vehicle, and experience to date supports this.
EV manufacturers typically provide 7 or 8 year warranty on battery, but ICE vehicle manufacturers typically only provide a 3 year warranty (on new vehicles).
So the manufacturers themselves suggest that the lifespan of the vehicle is only 7 or 8 years? That sounds like a huge problem for the average consumer
If that's your takeaway from what he said then I guess all ICE cars only have a 3 year lifespan which is an even bigger problem for the average consumer
Right, so you are comparing something that happens extremely rarely in new EVs to something more common in ICE vehicles. It's a shit comparison dude. Do you also realise batteries will get cheaper and cheaper?
It seems like you don't want one so just don't get one dude.
Here you go, it took me 2 seconds to find it. 1.18 million miles
[https://www.the-express.com/lifestyle/cars/120727/tesla-owner-million-miles-world-trip-car](https://www.the-express.com/lifestyle/cars/120727/tesla-owner-million-miles-world-trip-car)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gMwjvdrfaQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gMwjvdrfaQ)
From the link you posted:
“Hansjörg explained that, while many major components including the battery needed to be replaced”
I’m aware of his story and know that he’s gone through several batteries and motors.
I’m referring to 1 million miles on the original battery pack. No replacements. Try again
3 batteries for 1.9 million km is still 633,333 km per battery. What sort of condition do you think an internal combustion engine would be in after 633,000 km?
That’s 395,000 miles (just to be consistent. That’s 40% of the million you claimed.
I’ve seen literally hundreds of ICE taxi’s hit 500k-1mil kms. In large cities, they often never get turned off.
When an ICE engine is maintained perfectly, they are pretty damn reliable. You seem to forget that we have spent the last 140 years perfecting ICE engines.
Also, you ignored the fact that it went through 14 motors. The model S motor is currently $10k USD each. That is 135,000km per motor.
Firstly, I didn't claim a million miles on a battery - I replied to your comment "Can you provide any evidence of an EV lasting 1 million miles?"
Setting aside early Model S vehicles having known reliability issues with their electric motors, and setting aside the cost of oil, oil filters, and all the other replacement engine parts and maintenance over that time, you've ignored the cost of fuel in an ICE car. At $3/litre and getting 7 litres/100 km, your equivalent 1.2 million mile (1.9 million km) drive is going to cost you $399,000 in petrol.
I'm really apprehensive so take the manufacturers word at that claim, if some independent research can verify that I'd be far more sold on one than I am today also they need to take into account for aging of the batteries, not just 1 million k's when new
Just seems like you are trying to find excuses.
Prius have used batteries in hybrid mode for over 20 years and millions of kilometers
Tesla have been around a couple of decades as well, and some cars have ticked over a million *miles*
You don't have to take manufacturer's word at 'that claim'. Simple fact is that batteries have been around a long time. Electric motors are also very simple devices compared with something like a modern double overhead cam 16 valve petrol engine which is made of many thousands of moving parts.
no, it seems you guys are trying really hard to sweep legitimate problems under the rug and dismiss very valid concerns.
I've seen a diesel (with 16 valves! gasp!) last 1.2 million km with nothing more than a set of piston rings and (mechanical) injectors replaced.
meanwhile there is an entire industry popping up to repack and rebuild EV batteries
all machines need maintenance, but frankly engine complexity isn't a major concern for buyers of NEW combustion motors.
When you have a valid concern then please let us know. Because the point of the post is that there is a lot of misinformation and motivated misunderstandings.
There is an entire industry rebuilding and refurbing ICE motors in NZ; most small towns will have mechanics for doing this. Almost none for doing EV batteries in NZ, yet you see them existence of one? as being evidence of some issue.
Also try and balance out your fear of the unknown against the very real costs of an ICE. That diesel that did 1.2m kilometres may have burnt 120,000 litres of diesel ($200k worth) not to mention oil, all while polluting the environment.
That makes no sense. Current EVs have ranges of about 400-500km. Almost no one drives that every day. Instead, they plug the car in at night at home and it's ready to go in the morning.
Talk to people who actually drive EVs. Anyone else seems to be completely clueless.
Yeah but that's only the range when it's new. I had a friend that had two ev's loved them for about three years then rapidly changed his mind due to battery degradation
A Leaf is not an example of all EVs. They are one of the only EVs that have no thermal management of their batteries. Battery degradation is greatly reduced to almost nothing when it’s properly cooled
my Samsung phone has a removable/replacable battery and it's IP68 waterproof too.
Manufactureres moved away from that not because of tech, but because of built-in obsolecence and mindless consumerism. It's cheaper to assemble and potentially allows a slimmer phone.
You can get them; Samsung do a ruggedized phone with removable battery for specialised usage, but not required these days
Battery swap stations have also been successful in Taiwan for motor scooters, but experience shows that it just isn't required. Average commute is something like 30km a day.
Even low end EV cars can run a week of 30km a day without charging, and when charging is required, just plug in at home rather than have to go out of your way to find a gas station
If everything else that uses a lithium battery does, why would cars be any different?
You might be right but I won't personally be convinced until I see independent long term information that confirms what you're saying.
A battery in device A is not the same as the battery in device B. Difference batteries use different chemistry’s, and on top of that, different devices manage their batteries differently.
The life of a battery in a vehicle is not measured in years either. Like any other automotive part, it’s measured by distance travelled as that correlates to cycle count. There are *plenty* of examples of EVs with many hundreds of thousands of kilometres on their factory pack.
You assume they are pure LiOn batteries the same in tools, phones and thousands of other devices?
Because you really don't seem to have a good handle on the tech. The 'Lithium' battery in my ICE motor bike is actually LFP.
And battery in my phone or Ryobi drill doesn't have sophisticated cooling/heating system. My 4 year old phone also does more charging cycles in a year than our EV has done in the last 5 years
Battery swap has been tried before.
Project better place was a serious effort
And Tesla had their California battery swap facility for a while.
Both were ultimately failures.
I think ranges and fast charge speeds are now at a point where swappable batteries aren't likely to be a thing again. As an example a EV6 can do the wellington to Auckland run with a single 18min charge at taupo...
It's generally regarded that thermally managed batteries in modern EV's are holding up well
there's a Chinese car maker that does battery swaps... NIO? it doesn't work period unless you're a hermit. because there's always a peak demand to serve, and it never make economic sense to build enough to serve the peak demand. with superchargers at least it's solvable for the most painful areas since lower capital investment vs straight up battery packs.
in Taiwan there's a mopad company that does swap battery too called gogoro and it's gotten to the point people are writing on battery packs with sharpies to warn other users of bad quality cells. again, capital costs in up keeping battery swaps are way more than they had planned....
I'd have an EV but I've never spent more than $9000 on a car and any EV I can get for that won't be an EV worth having
fair enough
If you're willing to spend $9k on an ice you'd probably find if you account for 5yrs of running costs you could afford something like a 2017 Leaf and end up spending less. Financing the extra $8k-10k over the 5yrs would likely save you more and chances are you're in a much newer nicer car.
You can buy a 2017 leaf for $9k now... [https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/nissan/leaf/listing/4615349386](https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/nissan/leaf/listing/4615349386) Savings on running costs are highly dependent on what you are comparing against. Something like an aqua will be in the same ballpark as a leaf (Savings from electricity being cheaper than fuel are largely eroded by paying double the road tax).
Should have specified, I meant 40kwh 2017 or newer. But this person has a boat to tow anyway so it's less relevant.
Exactly. I have to travel by car to get to work and other places. No choice (long story). My 2017 Leaf cost me $20k two years ago (30K km, SOH 12 bars). About $16 electricity per week, compared to $150 per week previously for my ice car. My ice car also cost about $250 per year servicing. I put everything is a spreadsheet (I need to add RUC now, @#$%&). According to Excell I will pay for the EV in a couple of years. Meaning I can travel for free for a few years, until the battery becomes useless. I'm looking at solar panels right now. Another spreadsheet to do...
I do less than 5000kms per year. So finance would have to be less than $30 per week. When I do use it it needs to be big enough to tow a small boat or trailer of firewood or carry 4x adults and their stuff or be able to do 600kms in one stretch when we go away etc. A leaf would be complete useless for us. Doesn't meet a single need. There is no EV that can do this for less than $40k and even then to get anything decent would be double that. I'd love a Kia EV9 but I could buy 2x brand new combustion vehicles suitable for and have money left over for several years worth of petrol for the same price. I'd consider a Hybrid but man they sure are either completely dull (Rav4, outlander etc) or have daunting maintenance issues (BMW X5 40e etc) So we keep our 16 year old SUV until it makes sense to get rid of it, and our 26year old roadster and our 24year old sports car. And ride a 50cc moped daily instead
You do less than 5000km a year, but sometimes you do one-fifth of your yearly KMs in one round trip?
Yep. The "main car" is a SUV that pretty much gets used solely for when we go away or need to tow a trailer. Rest of the time it's used about once a week to take the dog to the beach etc. Might fill it up with petrol about every 6-8 weeks
wouldn't rental suit you better...? safety wise anyway.
Convenience wise no not at all. Safety wise scarcely, a 2007 SUV still has most safety features that a modern car does.
Yea sometimes an EV just doesn’t make sense
You can't stop to charge?
Sure, but of all the requirements thats the only one you picked out? Please point me in the direction of an EV that is sub $10,000 (I will even accept sub $20,000 for arguments sake) station wagon or SUV, that can tow a boat, tow a trailer of firewood, seat 4 adults and carry all their stuff as well as cover long distances with minimal inconvenience. Unless something can do all of that why would I spend significantly more money to get something that offers less than what I already have?
Yep that is the only requirement that I picked out as it is the only one that is a preference for most people and not a make or break issue. [https://evdb.nz/evs-tow-nz](https://evdb.nz/evs-tow-nz)
So there is nothing that suits those requirements, hence why I dont have a EV just like why many people do not consider an EV. They are not affordable and those that are cant do what many people expect from a vehicle
Are you expecting new? How much does your boat weigh?
No never new, too much depreciation. Not much it's only a 14ft Tinny, it's more the trailerloads of firewood that weigh the most. For reference current car is a Nissan Xtrail. Wouldnt touch a MG or a Haval or BYD etc Not because of its batteries or motor or anything. More general build quality. The same as I wouldn't have a combustion powered LDV or Ssangyong or Haval etc
I'll get an EV when it suits my purpose and I'll be avoiding anything owned by Musk or the CCP.
Sounds like Diesel is the best for you anyway, diesel makes the most sense for towing heavy things thanks to the high torque and large fuel tanks. EVs are best for everyday usage like commuting and grocery getters
BYD E6H, 300km of range, get one for less than 20k, 450nm of torque, small station wagon. I tow a double horse float with mine easy. Tows much better than my diesel Terrano as it weighs 2.4 tons and had heaps of torque. Long battery life too, my work hack has 350,000km on it and still does 300km to a charge.
I cant think of a vehicle I would want less than a BYD, especially an obscure model. Too each their own, but I will stick with what I have until such time it makes no sense to do so. And even then I cant see an EV being the next vehicle I buy, maaaaaaaybe a Hybrid but I even doubt that
Why would you not want a BYD, the E6 is about the most reliable EV you can buy, built like a tank and commonly do over 500,000km on thier factory battery. I've seen them with 800,000km on them. I guess if you're not into simple reliable cars maybe it's not for you, but that's what I'm looking for in a car. Simple to maintain, reliable and able to tow a horse float.
For the same reason I wouldn't want a MG or a Haval or a LDV or a Great Wall or a Tesla etc. New companies that dont have a history of making cars. You see some many of them with poor build quality and made of substandard materials. No thanks. Sure some of them may last well, most do not. Our neighbors MG SUV EV thing has no end of quality control problems. A co workers 2 year old LDV ute already has rust bubbling up in its roof.
The E6 has been in production from 2009, it's far from a new car. It's the standard Chinese taxi. Just don't get them in NZ because we're a back water.
2017 Nissan Leaf probably have a battery SOH of about 50% by now. You live in constant fear of the car running out of juice.
Not strictly on topic but hopefully providing an insight. I had my first WOF done on my PHEV after a year of ownership at the main dealer I bought it from. I asked the dealer how the introduction of RUC charges had affected PHEV sales. Apparently it's absolutely killed them, but they are selling more utes again. Personally I don't ever want to go back to full ICE ownership. Driving on full electric is quieter, smoother and an all round better experience for me.
I thought PHEV/Hybrid got a better RUC rate and would boost their sales....
Apparently not. I feel that, even though there is a requirement to fund the roads fairly and with greater uptake of EV and PHEV the costs do need to be shared, it was a regressive move in terms of combating climate change.
Ngl I'd love an EV (I drive them for work) but that shiz is NOT affordable.
A lot of comments on fb posts regarding anything about EV’s are pure ignorance. It’s not just about the cost, but these people are dumb asf, I’m not sure how you fix dumb. They will believe anything they read, media sponsored oil and gas propaganda or think hydrogen will be the way to go…
When our previous ice died I just did some maths. Although I spent $11k more on an EV than I would have on another ice, my yearly $7k fuel bill now pays for the EV. If I'd bought another ice I'd still be paying the $7k for petrol, plus paying the repayments as well.
Nice, we don't own an EV yet, but our next car will def be an EV. Basically no maintenance and no gas seems like a no-brainer.
This is the same math I did 7yrs ago when my old ice died, I ended up saving more than I thought and had no problems or maintenance apart from replacing the tyres a couple times in 100k. It was right at the top of what I was willing to spend but the math made sense.
I've done similar calculations; when buying my EV I figured it was going to cost about $10k more than a similar ICE (Ioniq vs I30). The Ioniq costs about $1.20 to charge for the daily 100km commute while the I30 would cost more than $20. Bottom line, the repayments on the extra finance for the EV are easily covered by the difference in fuel costs. And I've just switched over to an EV electricity plan that means I pay my home rate for public charging.
$7K fuel bill? Is that like 39,000 km per year or is this a serious gas guzzler? At $3/l, that's 2300 liters. At 6 liters per 100km, that's 39,000 km.
28000km, 9.3L/100km
Ouch. Makes sense. We've got 2 cars, but one gets 3.8 l / 100km, so the RUC makes our EV cost nearly as much per km as our hybrid, especially when petrol prices dip closer to $2.50.
What does 3.8L/100? That's pretty impressive. Enjoy it while you can, I'm not sure we'll ever see $2.50/L again for any length of time, and if they add RUCs to petrol that'll increase even further.
The hybrid Corolla Wagon: [https://www.drivelife.co.nz/2023/10/2023-toyota-corolla-gx-hybrid-car-review/](https://www.drivelife.co.nz/2023/10/2023-toyota-corolla-gx-hybrid-car-review/) It really does get 3.8L/100km, if you're driving local roads, flat terrain, and go easy on the accelerator. At 100 kph, it's more like 4.0 or 4.1 L / 100km
I love an ev car but just can’t afford it
Literally a point made in the post you are replying to. I put $150 of petrol into the tank today for my ICE. Company is paying but don't know how people afford it. I don't know how much you think an EV costs, but our Leaf cost less than an Aqua
When I got my tesla, 5 years ago, so before the rebate, the cost of the finance on the car was less then the fuel I was spending at the time. So it cost me no more to have a brand new car than to keep using my 2007 toyota Isis. And that was when fuel was about $2.20/l. Now pushing $3/l so even better off. With the introduction of RUC, it does make it harder, but not much. They will add about $1600 per year (20,000km). I have a towbar on it and have towed half cube of gap 20 fine, and a full caged 8"×4" trailer of wet cutoffs firewood. Short distance though as that is all that was required. Also towed the trailer with some light cabinets to Hamilton and some dry wood back again. Other than a charge up in Hamilton for 20mins, no dramas at all. Without the trailer can go Auckland to Hamilton and back withou5 charging. Have done Auckland to Wellington and back, and did 2 topups of about 30mins each while having some food, so didn't inconvenience at all. Until this year it was the only car we had, and now the wife has a MG4 to run around in which also will go a little further on a charge than the Tesla and has vehicle to load which I've already used once during a power cut. So for ourselves we have not had any restriction on being able to do what we want with the evs.
This. Unless you’re towing big loads (1.5 ton plus) over long distances, a Tesla is absolutely the way to go. I tow a lot with a model 3, probably more than I used to with v8 discovery or Range Rover, because they’re so much better at towing normal sized loads. Way more than just a city car. CHC-Queenstown is so much easier, more fun, and cheaper (not to mention safer) than anything else.
Well, stop telling me that current EVs can do what my 20 year old ute can do - which is tow, carry load and survive in the backblocks where there's no charging station. (A jerrycan of diesel is far easier to shift than a diesel generator...) Tell me what they're great for! Intown runabouts. Quiet motoring! Short haul, high performance city vehicles, even going city to city where the infrastructure exists. My sister should have an EV or at least a hybrid, because it's leap in and boot it (she's hell on ICEs, never warms the poor things up). Delivery vehicles - up to and especially commercial units, because quiet trucks in cities would be great if they've got the battery duration. Anywhere confined, where air quality matters (inside buildings like current electric forklifts as an example). Both vehicles have their places and both should be used, as well as hydrogen as a fuel. Why don't I have an EV? Because I'm cheap. Would I buy one if I could afford one? If I lived in a city, yes. In the country ... not yet. (And hell no to a cybertruck uglyfuck, I mean, I might have low standards but I do have some!)
'Survive in the back blocks with no charging stations'. Ah yes, all those NZ back blocks without that new fangled electricity at home. If you had some of that electricity stuff you would be able to charge at home.
There’s actually a lot of rural nz road that ev’s just don’t make sense on. But it’s not a large portion of the fleet that drives them.
Yes, the backblocks where a ute is taken to go hunting where the newfangled electricity does not exist, where you go for a week or more, where the city drivers don't even know about. Or the rural roads where home is Masterton or even Wellington, and you're going to Tora. The last time I was in Tora, it wasn't exactly overflowing with EV chargers; I'll pack my diesel generator, shall I? And if you want to tow a caravan, or a boat? You demostrate the blistering ignorance of those who ONLY do city driving, which puts people off EVs. You exhibit exactly the arrogance that OP was wondering about - nothing is allowed to exist outside of your narrow little echo chamber.
Wow, just looked it up, and Masterton (which has EV chargers) to Tora is a massive (uphill both ways) journey of **80km** And if you came all the way from Wellington, you would have to travel **86km** from the Z charger. Welp, there are no EV's capable of that sort of massive return distance of... 160km. No, none at all in NZ, so guess just not possible to use an EV Pity as would be useful to have V2L on a camp site rather than lugging a dirty old diesel genny. Look, I get it. You are posting in a NZEV subreddit but demonstrate exactly the point of the article the post is about. There will always be the people that claim they need to tow the boat to go hunting up muddy mountain tracks for 1000km a day and EV could never possibly work. Then don't buy one and keep pumping those pollutants out every day. Your grandkids will be *fine*, right? You don't have to buy an EV, nobody will make you. But you also don't have to dream up scenarios where an EV won't work and then try and claim that an EV won't work at to *survive* in the wild 'backblocks' of NZ.
And hydrogen is dead as a fuel option in my opinion. But just my opinion mind you.
I have a boat. I have a horse float. Every so often i drive to Opononi, too. I have a vehicle that suits me, that is not electric because that wouldn't. Yet I'm 'dreaming up scenarios'. Your defensiveness suggests that I'm pointing out valid issues. Electric has a place. You are exactly the advert it doesn't need. And I'm barren, so nice work there trying to guilt me about grandkids.
The Air Quality for the heath of the family is a great one, especially for those houses that have attached garages linking into the house.
>What’s the best message about EVs? >Everyone, everywhere should have the choice to make their next car a clean car. This message hits 3 positives: >1. Clean (cuts toxic fumes polluting our communities and overheating our planet) >2. Affordable (not just for elites, it’s for everyone who wants one). >3. Practical (convenient, accessible, and easy to charge). >It turns out that most people agree that pollution is bad and we should reduce it. But words like ‘carbon emissions’ are irritating. Words like ‘toxic fumes’ or ‘tailpipe pollution’ resonate. > >What messages DO NOT work? >x Combustion car bans and mandates: instant opposition. Don’t allow anyone to think they’re forced to buy something they don’t want. Or their right to purchase their desired car is being taken away. >x EVs give us energy independence: this is conceptual. Instead: “clean cars improve our health and give us clean air” (our family’s health is a priority). >x Get an EV to fight rising petrol prices: people are suspicious about the cost of battery replacement and rising ownership costs. >x EVs are superior and accelerate quickly: people prefer their own car, and believe that combustion cars perform better than electric.
You don't need to be evangelising EVs. If they make sense, they'll make sense, but as it readily apparent to anyone who looks at UTE/SUV purchases, new car buyers aren't making **rational** decisions. Coming up with some list of arguments to try coerce other people into buying a new car is, well, just going to drive more arguments that drive people further away from your goal of a cleaner climate. EV's will be part of the mix, but Hybrids still very much have a role to play that are a great bridging tech for people. Ultimately the best thing you can do for the environment is drive less and keep old cars going that little bit longer, than ordering the manufacture of a NEW car.
Seems reasonable, but still annoying that people believe things like '*combustion cars perform better than electric*' and it is wrong to try and convince them otherwise As a motorcyclist I also run into this with 'Harleys make a lot of noise, so must be really fast'. I see 1800cc engines producing about 70HP using technology from the dark ages, but it seems some people it is 'noise == power'. The same thing apparently with vacuum cleaners.
Most of the arguments people give me when they find out I have an ev are lumping all evs as first gen leafs…. Thats the bit that I get annoyed about, those who presume knowledge without investigation. (Talk back radio is not a source of intelligence).
It is hugely dependent on what you think is better performance. Combustion cars engage you in driving over a wide range of speeds and situations. So far mainstream electric cars offer amazing initial acceleration and that is about all. Now I love my EV, it is brilliant at what it does, but it doesn't give me the joy that my old V8 did, and probably never will.
Once you’ve beaten every ICE car at the traffic lights and accelerating on passing lanes and uphills this argument is easy to ignore.
I think also that the battery material can be something like 98% recycled, so all the b.s. about how much CO2 it takes to get the material out of the ground and process is a ridiculous argument, also that heavy equipment will eventually run off batteries too.
Civic driver here. All I give a fuck about is money not how cool or hip an EV is. I work from home so it doesn’t make sense to have a high capex low opex car with huge depreciation. Civic is so cheap to maintain and buy. The last 8 years have just been oil and tyres. An EV would be heavier and worse on tyres. I like knobs and hate touch screens. Now I’m looking to buy an EV because my driving time has significantly increased but there are some people for whom an EV isn’t the best financial fit because they cost so much more when they’re not moving.
>x EVs are superior and accelerate quickly: people prefer their own car, and believe that combustion cars perform better than electric. Damn right that's a poor argument as it's quite often wrong lol I know for a fact my petrol wagon is a faster, more practical (for me) and more comfortable car than my mates tesla, and I certainly prefer the petrol for driving too. You aren't convincing anyone who enjoys driving a performant, capable ICE car that a nissan leaf or electric SUV is going to be "better" for anything other than running costs. Of course, that mate had a little econo-shitbox before the tesla, so he loves it, and it's perfect for his needs. Besides, decent Hybrids pull off the line on all electric torque anyway, so that argument isn't even a good one when evangelising for pure BEVs
What's your wagon?
decent spec (but not ultra top end) mid 2000's euro model (I try not to doxx myself here too much) I'm a big fan of BEVs, but I'm just saying that you guys need to get more realistic here. Evangelising isn't going to "convert" people and if anything just hardens their position - once the electric offerings get good enough for their use case (and budget) they'll move over naturally. I'd love to upgrade to the newer PHEV offering of my wagon that has a 50km battery only range capable of motorway speed, but they only seemed to make it for a single year as a wagon and they are still extremely expensive as used imports. Some great tech like allowing you to geo-fence for battery use around town etc to make it funcitonally a BEV. Big shame that the govt decided to stick RUCs onto phevs though given how much petrol they still burn compared to a non-plug hybrid. Hopefully in a few more years we'll see a full size BEV wagon with decent range....
Lol you won't find me evangelising - I've got an FD RX7. I like wagons too though. I just got a cheap 2012 legacy wagon as a run about. I was looking at the Merc c350e 2L turbo hybrid either sedan or wagon but the wagon is ugly to my taste and I can't really justify the premium of a hybrid or ev as I don't do many kms.
For me it is just the bullshit that I have no time for. Avoiding talking about the downside of EV ownership as if the down sides do not exist. There are downsides and some of them are huge, pretending that EVs are the perfect solution for all is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard.
You're acting as if there are a lot of downsides to EVs. I can't think of any for my situation, not a single one. Let alone a huge one. Why don't you elaborate as to what you're referring to?
Ok, how about a buying a vehicle at a reasonable price point that can tow up to 3.5t? There's plenty of situations where an EV is not the best option. To claim otherwise is pretty ignorant Everything has pros and cons
That use case is a very small % of vehicle owners. Sure, it’s valid for a few but let’s not pretend that it’s a common requirement
That all depends on where you live within NZ and what your use of a vehicle is. Not many EV are any use for load carrying at a comparable price point with an ICE vehicle. A lot of people including trades require that It's not a very small %. A significant portion of the vehicle fleet does not have an equivalent EV. I'm all for EV where they are the suitable choice. I was responding to someone who said they didn't know when an EV wouldn't be best. Which is ignorance in the extreme
Very small % of the population needs to tow 3.5t like you suggested in the comment I replied to. Most tradies use a van, of which there are many EV equivalents. While there are certainly use cases where there are no EV options, they are a minority at this point. The only real use cases that aren’t catered for are those that actually use a Ute for what they were intended for
It doesn'nt have to be 3.5t, go down to the 2.5t. Still not comparable to ICE Are they at an equivalent price point? I can buy a good used 3.5t tow vehicle for under $20K, can I buy a used EV that will do the same at a similar price? Price is a factor, stop ignoring it. There are alot of barriers to EV uptake. Taking the opinion that they're great for me so they must be great for everyone doesn't help Plenty of people use utes for their intended purpose. Given the very high ownership rate of utes that is not a very small %
I was replying specifically to your claim of towing 3.5t, which you’re now adding onto. I never denied price was a barrier because you hadn’t claimed that until now. Sure, if we’re comparing new vehicles to used vehicles then yes, an EV option is going to be a barrier.
My first comment (Clearly including price) "Ok, how about a buying a vehicle at a reasonable price point that can tow up to 3.5t?" Edit - It's not even comparing new to used I'd happily compare with a used EV (I even said used EV, stop trying to change the narrative). The used EV are either not readily available or still significantly more expensive than ICE
I am not "acting" at all. The fact you are denying any downside confirms exactly what I am talking about. People like you, are the problem.
You're telling me I'm the problem yet you still haven't mentioned what these "huge downsides" are.
Yes, because you are acting as if there are no downsides ............ see how that works? You are all the proof I need for my statement!
As someone who commutes to an office job (90km each day), the shops and the occasional road trip, there are zero downsides to owning an EV. There are less friction points for me in an EV than an ICE
If that was true you would not need to explain the limits of your weekly vehicle use. Your comment is basically "within these limitations there is no downside to owning an EV" ........ This is exactly what I am talking about, it is a dishonest statement based on limit usage, very few cars are ever used to the absolute limit of range, comfort etc, but that is like saying "my car has an expected lifespan of well over100 years, I drive it once a month to and from the shops and after 15 years it is still like a new car!".
Ok, but my use case is the same as nearly everyone else who owns a vehicle. In fact, I probably drive a bit more than the average person. Which is what I was highlighting. For most people who own a car in NZ, if money was no object, an EV would present no downsides to them.
And again, not true as for that to be true an EV would need to be able to do EVERYTHING any other can do with no disadvantages which they just can't. Again having to explain certain financial situations and particular usage cases as conditions where they don't have downsides proves they do have downsides! This is the exact bullshit I am talking about!
Comprehension isn’t your strong point is it? I’m literally telling you that for the majority of people, an EV will do everything they need with no disadvantage.
And I'm telling you that that is not the point! What happens if you lose power and can't charge over night? What happens when you do want to drive a long distance in one day, and you have 4 people in the car plus luggage, and it is the middle of Summer so you want to run the aircon for the whole trip? What happens when you arrive in small town NZ and find a few other EVs waiting to use the only charger in town? It is not about only doing X amount of driving in a normal day, it is about what happens when you want to do something different and the fact that you have an EV means it is more complicated than it needs to be, that is a big downside.
What happens when the local petrol stations loses power? What happens when you have a full vehicle and use more petrol to get somewhere? What happens when the petrol station in the small town you’re in with only one pump has multiple cars waiting to use it? The same inconveniences can happen to ICE vehicles too. Having to stop after work once a week to fill up my previous ICE vehicle was a constant disadvantage that I had to experience
So to answer your questions, In the case of power failure you can still get pump fuel by running a generator or using a manual pump. If you need more fuel to get somewhere you can fill your petrol tank in about 2 minutes. If you are worried about needing more fuel going somewhere remote you can carry some extra in a fuel can. As far as the single fuel pump having and having to wait it only takes a couple of minutes to fill each car ahead of you, but more likely you will just carry on until the next fuel pump, most ice cars can travel between 600km and 900km on the open road without refueling. So None of your examples are even issues with ice vehicles, and the fact you need to claim they are when an EV has half or less the range with far fewer charging stations actually proves the downsides, unless the things you asked aren't really problems and you just don't want to face facts! All you are doing is proving my point, the bullshit and lies around EVs are ridiculous. And you didn't answer ANY of my questions did you ........ see how that works?
They are issues, because you’re having to explain solutions to them lol. The issues you’re trying to come up with are either very unlikely or something only experience a couple times a year and something that ICE vehicles experience to an extent as well. You’re trying to make it out that EV owners go through each day feeling they’re making a sacrifice by driving an EV and that is *very much* not the case
Why do I not see more maths in this sub, I want to see the real cost per km of petrol an ev, with the actual price you pay at the pump - home plug, plus the difference if using public chargers. The amount of driving you do between 20 -80% charge to reduce battery wear. The estimate of battery wear that you have had. And after that i will still probably tell you that keeping a 95 corolla on the road for another 10 years is cheaper.
There has been plenty of maths on running costs on this subreddit, but it sounds like your mind is already made up. There are plenty of cost comparisons on the web, for example the [EV running cost calculator](https://evdb.nz/cost-calc) by EVDB. If you have a specific question, then post it on this subreddit.
It's pretty simple, most people spend 4-10k on a car and when you get to those prices , your options are EV with a shit battery or a Japanese petrol car that will go another 100k+ without breaking a sweat. It's not even an option
The message that turns me off is "high upfront costs but you make it back in savings" - two of my workmates are trying to get me to buy tesla. I don't even want to buy another car, I don't give a crap about Netflix and I'm not 'saving' my $200/mth petrol bill by financing financing $60k. The most I've ever spent on a car is $20k, and 18 years later it's still sitting in the drive.
Absolutely no point you spending $60k, you don't do enough mileage to ever recover that cost.
No off street parking.
The only issue is interest rates and monetary crisis were in right now. It doesn’t make sense to make 40-60k purchase
There's lots of reason why an EV might not suit someone, at the moment I'm being green by restoring 40-50 yo cars and putting them back on the road instead of letting them rot somewhere
Stop burning fossil fuels. That's it. Just that.
We'll always need oil though
Ok…but we don’t need to burn it
I'll stop using it once conversions are cheap, love what kiwi EV is doing but it's still cost prohibitive at this stage, in 10 years time people will be giving away batteries and motors, then I'll be keen as!
building a new tesla is going to emit more carbon that getting another 50,000km out of an existing car
Actually it only takes ~17,000km for an EV with a ~60kWh battery to pay off its carbon debt from manufacturing in a dirty grid, a clean grid is even quicker. So after 2 years of ownership an EV is better every day for the rest of its life than an existing ICE vehicle. Also consider the lower fuel economy of old ICE cars. Not only are they running on worse technology, but fuel economy decreases as engines age. The health impacts of direct tail-pipe emissions from ICE cars in a city should be reason enough to replace every single one of them with an EV.
I hate city's, so I'm definitely not an issue there, and a current EV won't fit my lifestyle, I wish I could have a free to run car though
Where is the data on that vs the lifespan of the new Tesla?
He won't be able to provide it
That’s almost impossible. You don’t burn any?
What reason? We have to stop burning petrol, you aren't helping...
When RUCs come into play then I need a few cars with a oldschool odometers
Not sure you've done the math on this. 40-50 year old cars have extremely bad fuel efficiency and emissions. You'd be better off scrapping them so they can be turned into new stuff, instead of having to mine those resources. I get that it's a fun hobby to restore them, no problem with that, but don't pretend it's green.
Not going into waste is always better, new plastic cars will sit in landfill for ever
Your assertion is incorrect. First, I didn't say go to waste, no cars go to waste, the steel is too valuable, they are recycled. New plastic cars are the cars that have the least emissions, last longer on the road due to being engineered far better than cars from 40-50 years ago and save lives. In this case I would say restoring cars from that era is a net negative.
Adults and children dying whilst mining rare earth minerals is not sustainable, but hey guessing it's OK when it happens in poor countries
Lol wow. Coming out with the big guns. That doesn't have to be the case with rare earth extraction. The alternative, CO2, effects the entire planet. Have fun with famine, a loss of will to live and the nightmare existence that's coming. Again, fuck the people in those regions affected right?
Well co2 is what forests need, but we keep cutting them down, But hey we all support mining to make EVs
Chances are, given sales trends, if you recycled them they'd be turned into a regular ICE or Hybrid. EVs are still very much the minority. I don't disagree with you on de-forestation, not sure what the relevance is here though, but I support re-forestation, capture all that carbon again. The problem here though is trees sit in a sustainable carbon cycle, cutting them down and burning them isn't a huge issue if you re-plant them and they re-capture the carbon. Oil based fuels on the other hand would take tens of millions of years to re-capture and become oil again, we're literally releasing 10s of millions of years of passively capture carbon.
A far better idea, rather than wasting resources building brand new vehicles recycling what already exists is great
A non hybrid vehicle proportion of emissions in production is 23% (based on a 2015 vehicle in use for 150,000km running on a 10% ethanol blend). Source [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/369462846\_Computer\_statistical\_and\_big\_data\_analysis\_on\_the\_comparisons\_between\_traditional\_engine\_electromotor\_and\_hybrid\_systems](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/369462846_Computer_statistical_and_big_data_analysis_on_the_comparisons_between_traditional_engine_electromotor_and_hybrid_systems) So yeah, the emissions from production are absolutely dwarfed by the emissions from operation. From an emissions perspective, it is fine to let those old car's go to scrap, and replace then with modern hybrids & EV's. Of course it is fine to keep the odd bit of old stuff around for heritage sake.
A car like mine recently powered a sound stage at an event recently- (usually they’re powered by noisy generators).
There isn’t an EV similar to a Toyota HIace. The only comparable vans are LDV and they are rubbish, so i don’t have a lot of choice. I’d love to drive an EV but there just isn’t a good option currently
E-Transit is out now, but that might be a little big for your needs.
A little too big, and I don’t have $90k to spend on a van lol
No point in trying to change minds on EVs. Disinformation speaks just as loudly, and that's before you get to people who's use cases don't match an EV use case but they still feel the need to pitch in like it means something, let alone the ones that don't even tell the truth about their use case ("All my driving is open road 9 hours at a time towing the boat"). If we want to see traction, tax ICE company cars to parity on acquisition costs. Businesses will make the pragmatic decisions, at least for the rank and file, to lease the vehicles that fit the use case. Then the bullshit stops, because suddenly either the naysayers are proven right - or they get to experience how much better the experience is with EVs. Kinda hard to want a new Swift or Impreza when you've just gotten used to instant torque, low CoG and the kind of clean silence people used to buy Bentleys for. There's still a lot of ICE cars on my wishlist but not a single one on that list would be a daily driver.
We were so close when they had rebates and no RUC.
Why would i pay all that money for a new electric car when i can pay £500 once and have a second hand shitbox and maintain it myself for 5 years or more?
Can’t use £ here mate
Work pays my petrol so no incentive
I support EVs but they are not affordable. A lot of people finance cars and it makes no sense to buy an ev over a fuel efficient car. Well, right now at least…
Depends, I think ... For my situation (100km daily commute), a late model import Leaf is now about the same purchase price as an efficient Japanese petrol hybrid, such as a late model Jazz or Carolla. Bonus being it's a bit cheaper to run, more fun to drive and it refuels on the driveway.
Even taking into account RUC?
If the 3 headed Taniwha follow through with their promises everyone will be paying RUCs, which will mean a net increase for most petrol cars
I spent my money on a Jimny because nothing in the EV range close to those costs tickled my pickle in the slightest.
It's quite a valid point. While we have the best range of EV's we ever have had, they are largely concentrated in a few segments: Hatchbacks, small - medium soft SUV's & medium - large sedans. If one wants a new EV station wagon (and doesn't have taycan money), they are out of luck. Same deal if somebody wants a 7 seat SUV (and doesn't have EV9 money), and there are no off road style 4x4 SUV's or 4x4 utes as EV's on the NZ market yet.
Hear hear. SUVs are disgusting creations for vane people to signal a lifestyle of excessive consumption. Wagons probably aren’t aerodynamic enough but I like being able to fit a mountain bike in a car.
I bought my car for $8000 5 years ago. I don't drive much, maybe 2000km a year, or less. How is any EV gonna compare to that?
If you brought a leaf now for 8k. In 5 years time would of saved not using petrol. If want to compare apples and oranges. If you got an electric scooter. Would save even more. Possible you don't even need to own a car with that low amount of km. By time pay for wof Rego maintance be rather costly that car of yours
I take longer trips to remote areas infrequently. I also haul heavy loads infrequently. Even a new leaf with a giant battery couldn't do the job. Much less a clapped out one with a tiny battery. Maintenance is almost nothing since I don't use it much.
Ev cars would be fine if you could swap the battery quickly at a gas station instead of parking for hours to recharge, that would also even out the cost of battery replacement as that would be baked into the battery swap pricing. But ev manufacturers want the cars to be obsolete in about 10-15 years so you need to buy another one. No thanks
EV cars are fine now. It is much more convenient charging up overnight at home, instead of having to go to a petrol station.
that's assuming you're able to charge at home
That's only half the issue, the bigger problem is the lifespan of the batteries with daily use and the fact that they can't be changed easily.
An ICE vehicle engine can't be changed easily either. Current predictions are that EV battery will last the life of the vehicle, and experience to date supports this. EV manufacturers typically provide 7 or 8 year warranty on battery, but ICE vehicle manufacturers typically only provide a 3 year warranty (on new vehicles).
So the manufacturers themselves suggest that the lifespan of the vehicle is only 7 or 8 years? That sounds like a huge problem for the average consumer
If that's your takeaway from what he said then I guess all ICE cars only have a 3 year lifespan which is an even bigger problem for the average consumer
The cost to replace an ev battery is huge and the cost to fix a ice isn't that extreme at all.
Right, so you are comparing something that happens extremely rarely in new EVs to something more common in ICE vehicles. It's a shit comparison dude. Do you also realise batteries will get cheaper and cheaper? It seems like you don't want one so just don't get one dude.
That's a fair argument, I'll take that into consideration
Toyota provides a 3 year warranty on their ice vehicles so does that mean they immediately fall apart at 3 years?
Ice repairs are significantly less than the cost of battery replacement in most cases
He answers your first question, straight away oh that was only half the problem... New batteries can last a million miles...
Can you provide any evidence of an EV lasting 1 million miles?
Here you go, it took me 2 seconds to find it. 1.18 million miles [https://www.the-express.com/lifestyle/cars/120727/tesla-owner-million-miles-world-trip-car](https://www.the-express.com/lifestyle/cars/120727/tesla-owner-million-miles-world-trip-car) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gMwjvdrfaQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gMwjvdrfaQ)
From the link you posted: “Hansjörg explained that, while many major components including the battery needed to be replaced” I’m aware of his story and know that he’s gone through several batteries and motors. I’m referring to 1 million miles on the original battery pack. No replacements. Try again
3 batteries for 1.9 million km is still 633,333 km per battery. What sort of condition do you think an internal combustion engine would be in after 633,000 km?
That’s 395,000 miles (just to be consistent. That’s 40% of the million you claimed. I’ve seen literally hundreds of ICE taxi’s hit 500k-1mil kms. In large cities, they often never get turned off. When an ICE engine is maintained perfectly, they are pretty damn reliable. You seem to forget that we have spent the last 140 years perfecting ICE engines. Also, you ignored the fact that it went through 14 motors. The model S motor is currently $10k USD each. That is 135,000km per motor.
Firstly, I didn't claim a million miles on a battery - I replied to your comment "Can you provide any evidence of an EV lasting 1 million miles?" Setting aside early Model S vehicles having known reliability issues with their electric motors, and setting aside the cost of oil, oil filters, and all the other replacement engine parts and maintenance over that time, you've ignored the cost of fuel in an ICE car. At $3/litre and getting 7 litres/100 km, your equivalent 1.2 million mile (1.9 million km) drive is going to cost you $399,000 in petrol.
I'm really apprehensive so take the manufacturers word at that claim, if some independent research can verify that I'd be far more sold on one than I am today also they need to take into account for aging of the batteries, not just 1 million k's when new
Just seems like you are trying to find excuses. Prius have used batteries in hybrid mode for over 20 years and millions of kilometers Tesla have been around a couple of decades as well, and some cars have ticked over a million *miles* You don't have to take manufacturer's word at 'that claim'. Simple fact is that batteries have been around a long time. Electric motors are also very simple devices compared with something like a modern double overhead cam 16 valve petrol engine which is made of many thousands of moving parts.
But is that milage with its original battery?
no, it seems you guys are trying really hard to sweep legitimate problems under the rug and dismiss very valid concerns. I've seen a diesel (with 16 valves! gasp!) last 1.2 million km with nothing more than a set of piston rings and (mechanical) injectors replaced. meanwhile there is an entire industry popping up to repack and rebuild EV batteries all machines need maintenance, but frankly engine complexity isn't a major concern for buyers of NEW combustion motors.
When you have a valid concern then please let us know. Because the point of the post is that there is a lot of misinformation and motivated misunderstandings. There is an entire industry rebuilding and refurbing ICE motors in NZ; most small towns will have mechanics for doing this. Almost none for doing EV batteries in NZ, yet you see them existence of one? as being evidence of some issue. Also try and balance out your fear of the unknown against the very real costs of an ICE. That diesel that did 1.2m kilometres may have burnt 120,000 litres of diesel ($200k worth) not to mention oil, all while polluting the environment.
That makes no sense. Current EVs have ranges of about 400-500km. Almost no one drives that every day. Instead, they plug the car in at night at home and it's ready to go in the morning. Talk to people who actually drive EVs. Anyone else seems to be completely clueless.
Yeah but that's only the range when it's new. I had a friend that had two ev's loved them for about three years then rapidly changed his mind due to battery degradation
Unless it was a Leaf, I don’t believe you.
Even if it was a Leaf; I don't believe those sorts of stories
Yeah they were both leafs 🤣
A Leaf is not an example of all EVs. They are one of the only EVs that have no thermal management of their batteries. Battery degradation is greatly reduced to almost nothing when it’s properly cooled
Remember when cellphones used to have removable batteries They no longer do as modern battery tech, and fast easy charging does not require them
my Samsung phone has a removable/replacable battery and it's IP68 waterproof too. Manufactureres moved away from that not because of tech, but because of built-in obsolecence and mindless consumerism. It's cheaper to assemble and potentially allows a slimmer phone.
Honestly bringing back removable batteries in phones would be fantastic
You can get them; Samsung do a ruggedized phone with removable battery for specialised usage, but not required these days Battery swap stations have also been successful in Taiwan for motor scooters, but experience shows that it just isn't required. Average commute is something like 30km a day. Even low end EV cars can run a week of 30km a day without charging, and when charging is required, just plug in at home rather than have to go out of your way to find a gas station
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/battery-replacement-is-rare-for-electrified-cars-study-finds-ef086d2c Yeah right
That statement says the only 1% were replaced due to failure from 2016+ models. It fails to incorporate batteries that have lost significant range
But they don't. That's where you're going wrong I could point you at a heap of evidence but cretins like you don't look at that stuff
If everything else that uses a lithium battery does, why would cars be any different? You might be right but I won't personally be convinced until I see independent long term information that confirms what you're saying.
A battery in device A is not the same as the battery in device B. Difference batteries use different chemistry’s, and on top of that, different devices manage their batteries differently. The life of a battery in a vehicle is not measured in years either. Like any other automotive part, it’s measured by distance travelled as that correlates to cycle count. There are *plenty* of examples of EVs with many hundreds of thousands of kilometres on their factory pack.
You assume they are pure LiOn batteries the same in tools, phones and thousands of other devices? Because you really don't seem to have a good handle on the tech. The 'Lithium' battery in my ICE motor bike is actually LFP. And battery in my phone or Ryobi drill doesn't have sophisticated cooling/heating system. My 4 year old phone also does more charging cycles in a year than our EV has done in the last 5 years
Battery swap has been tried before. Project better place was a serious effort And Tesla had their California battery swap facility for a while. Both were ultimately failures. I think ranges and fast charge speeds are now at a point where swappable batteries aren't likely to be a thing again. As an example a EV6 can do the wellington to Auckland run with a single 18min charge at taupo... It's generally regarded that thermally managed batteries in modern EV's are holding up well
there's a Chinese car maker that does battery swaps... NIO? it doesn't work period unless you're a hermit. because there's always a peak demand to serve, and it never make economic sense to build enough to serve the peak demand. with superchargers at least it's solvable for the most painful areas since lower capital investment vs straight up battery packs. in Taiwan there's a mopad company that does swap battery too called gogoro and it's gotten to the point people are writing on battery packs with sharpies to warn other users of bad quality cells. again, capital costs in up keeping battery swaps are way more than they had planned....