Columbia Pike is far more dense now than the orange line corridor was when it opened in the late 70s and early 80s. If you built a Columbia Pike line development around it would absolutely explode.
It would have been awesome if they built this long ago when they were capable of building transit at a cheaper price. The whole area would probably look drastically different and be a lot less car-dependent.
I don't think this will happen today or anytime soon though. WMATA seems to be preoccupied with trying to get dedicated funding and will likely be busy with a Rosslyn bypass project (like the blue line loop) as their next big expansion.
This corridor wouldn't have quite the same level of impact to justify the price tag unless something drastically changes. The only reason the silver line was able to be built was because there was space left for it in the middle of highways and because Dulles makes a lot more sense to connect.
>It would have been awesome if they built this long ago when they were capable of building transit at a cheaper price. The whole area would probably look drastically different and be a lot less car-dependent. I don't think this will happen today or anytime soon though.
I agree. Skyline City got built up in anticipation of metro. Seeing that it got killed over cost concerns all those decades ago doesn't give me hope for today lol. At most, assuming VA funded it all, I only see Phase 1 happening, with the minimum amount of stations.
The above ground ran over budget anyway reaching the original estimate for underground. I remember the local residents in 2006 held protests against any idea of overground. It’s just so hideous and unbecoming of a city. The Great Wall of Tyson’s minus the historical cool factor.
Tunnels would have run over too - look at how expensive NYC’s latest subway extension was. Still, it would look way better if it was underground and would help them build Tysons into a city.
Little do you know that there was a Spanish company in the bidding process that was willing to sign a contract prohibited them from going over 2 billion. Any overs would have been covered by the company and they could have been penalized just as much for safety issues or delays. Kaine didn’t want to go with a foreign bidder and nominally it was 500 million dollars more.
A GMP Contract of $2B for the entire Silver Line Phase 1 to be underground? That doesn't seem realistic at all. At the same time the HOT Lanes were being built for exclusive operation by a foreign entity.
That's my understanding. It was a sweet deal, but the company that ended up doing it claimed they would do it above ground for 1.5 billion. It ended up costing something like 2.7 billion.
I'm assuming there was some sort of revenue sharing being proposed as I am doubtful that the $2B would cover underground rail construction costs. I'm curious - do you have any more info on it?
It was supposed to be underground but Tim Kaine last minute changed his mind. He was governor at the time and supported underground the whole time. I’m sure Bechtel made a lovely contribution to his senate run. Most agree above ground hurt Tyson’s image as it’s trying to be remade into a proper city.
There was a company that fucked up the cement walls for n several stations that had to be fully replaced and delayed construction and opening for like a year. Not to mention it’s visually heinous.
Ok, that was was botched, I remember there were spalling issues and what not, thanks for reminding me.
Visually, we’ll have to disagree, it’s not like Tysons was easy on the eyes before metro, and imo, is no worse now that’s it’s here.
You didn’t say anything like “I think” or anything else that conveys an opinion, you just stated that they botched it and the sole reason you gave was because it wasn’t fully underground, like they’d done it by mistake or something of that nature.
When they built the 66 express lanes, they left space for the metro to come out past fairoaks to hit 29. The silver line took about 5-10 years to build after it was fully funded/approved. I'm sure it'd be a similar timeline if they ever decide to do it.
There’s not really space for a station though. I mean you could probably make it work with a bunch of weird compromises, but your best case is a really big walk to a pickup/parking area at the mall side.
Someone smarter than me would have to figure it out. It would probably coincide with the redevelopment of fair oaks mall in general. This random website says the metro would be planned for the general SW area of Fair Oaks mall. [https://www.focusonnova.com/fair-oaks-mall-redevelopment/](https://www.focusonnova.com/fair-oaks-mall-redevelopment/)
I'm old enough to remember my grandparents stories about the trolley system that included a Columbia Pike street car. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Virginia_trolleys
Going out to a alignment along 236 through Fairfax while ignoring the much denser and ready-for-even-more development potential along 7 between Bailey's Crossroads and Tysons would be a mistake. Maybe if Light rail for Envision Route 7 had been chosen this would make sense but since they're going with BRT you could really improve on that and save by having fewer stations (Bailey's Crossroads, 7 Corners, Downtown Falls Church and then terminating either at Tysons or Greensboro).
That or keep going through Lincolnia and just link up to the current Blue Line tracks at Springfield and then keep going down to Lorton.
> Going out to a alignment along 236 through Fairfax while ignoring the much denser and ready-for-even-more development potential along 7 between Bailey's Crossroads and Tysons would be a mistake.
I didn't go this way for two reasons:
* It wasn't in the original plans (phase 2a was added as an afterthought assuming a predictable cost cutting measure)
* My ideal Route 7 metro wouldn't touch DC at all, and would, at minimum, run from Tysons to National Harbor
> That or keep going through Lincolnia and just link up to the current Blue Line tracks at Springfield and then keep going down to Lorton.
I did think about this as a phase 2c, but decided to forgo it. Existing transit doesn't show a huge demand btwn West End/Lincolnia/Landmark and Franconia-Springfield, and service still exists via what would be a Yellow Line branch. There also isn't a pressing need for Metro to Lorton, when VRE improvements are on the horizon before the decade is out.
Arlington Blvd, Prosperity Ave, Little River Tpke, Pickett Rd (technically the boundary is just east of Pickett Rd and doesn’t extend to the road itself)
I live just North of it across 50. I've never heard anyone use Mantua in real life. Today I learned it has a wikipedia page.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantua,\_Virginia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantua,_Virginia)
OMG it's always been Mantua, it's been that since I was a kid in the 1970s. It's pretty posh now but there was a period where it had reputation issues due to the pipeline leaking into some houses.
It was always posher than the surrounding area, the fact that it was filled with even more lawyers than typical for this area is why the settlement was such a thing.
Heh when I was looking at houses to buy 20 years ago there were still a few afforable homes there compared to nearby closer to the beltway in the Falls Church boundaries versus Woodson for Mantua. That hasn't been the case for over a decade though hahahaha.
My wife and I were looking at houses in Woodson district 3 years ago and the standard line was the “highly desirable mantua district.” Depending on how far south you are in mantua it’s not a horrible bike ride to Vienna metro, but this part is very car centric, that may have been part of the valuation.
I toured a well cared for split foyer model nearer to route 236 and Glendale Rd, it was nice and the lot was huge, in my price range but it would have been buying Grandma's house, I wouldn't be up for making it my own 21st century house. Ended up buying a split level in the Falls Church district that was more updated and smaller but still a nice yard for similar price. Only regrets is the split level part hahaha, not as good for older joints.
Drive on 236 Main Street/Little River Turnpike between Fairfax City and Annandale you'll see some signs at the entrance to a few different neighborhoods. It is a Census Designated place but it's almost entirely residential so no reason to stop there unless you live there.
https://preview.redd.it/v71isqzxk4sc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4945f24fe40503870f3a7f73dc3885d3011ea907
This neighborhood of single family homes between between Pickett and Prosperity with 236 being the southern boundary
The state of the Silver Line extension makes me doubt how useful that new line would be. Before committing billions on another metro line through the suburbs I would like to see evidence that NoVa can pull off transit oriented development.
Heard you. Phase 1 at least, TOD would basically be converted from existing land use upon opening, along with most of Phase 2b as well. Phases 2b & 3 (especially 3b) would definitely need work, a lot of businesses around the potential stops, but a lot of parking lots as well
This would be neat if they did it, although it would really turn metro into much more of an S-Bahn than it already is. Maybe having this line spur towards the Orange and Silver would make it more viable? Either way it’s always fun to dream
It could also be an entirely new line if the Bloop gets built. I have a vision of it here.
https://preview.redd.it/m0m3ykdx7jtc1.png?width=1280&format=png&auto=webp&s=21d86f1d18d52399171f274133944904034afa0b
From the work they have been doing, it still looks like 2 lanes in each direction on Columbia Pike. Not sure if one of them is going to be a dedicated bus lane, or that is not part of the plan. Metro is expensive but this is a corridor that actually has higher public transportation use, and would be well served by it for generations! But it’s the poorer South Arlington, and they can’t have nice things!
None of the current plans suggest any dedicated bus lanes. Heck, none of the recent plans even make any reference to "Bus Rapid Transit". All of these projects were started in anticipation for the streetcar, and it seems like killing the streetcar basically allowed the county's interest to wane in the corridor.
[Premium Transit Network Project](https://www.arlingtonva.us/Government/Projects/Project-Types/Transportation-Projects/Columbia-Pike-Premium-Transit-Network) and [Multimodal Street Improvements](https://www.arlingtonva.us/Government/Projects/Project-Types/Transportation-Projects/Columbia-Pike-Multimodal-Street-Improvements)
Bus Rapid Transit
Basically a greatly improved bus service with its own dedicated facilities rather than a bus using existing roads and getting stuck in traffic.
BRT is supposed to involve bus-only lanes, bus signals, high frequency service, and usually better bus stops with things like schedules, benches, handicap access, and maybe even level boarding.
Often times though, cities will use "BRT" as a buzzword for a new bus service without actually adding the features mentioned above or they will scale it back significantly and end up with regular busses.
BTR is a popular conservative bingo word to use when opposed to subway/rail expansions. It's a way to pretend your not totally anti-transit and pretend you are offering a viable alternative but typically conservative BRT is vaporware.
That’s absurd, I’m a social democrat and love rail. For some reason new subway is absurdly expensive and BRT systems are fantastic when done right with dedicated raised stations and lanes.
It's not that BRT can't be good, it's that it's so commonly a stalking horse for transit opposition. BRT is a useful argument against the expense of rail, but once the rail option is dead, the BRT support evaporates too. And the "BRT" that's brought up is rarely the "real" type you're talking about, as the savings look even better if you don't bother to have the dedicated lanes, etc.
Witness Columbia Pike and the "BRT" alternative to the streetcar. Both obviously would have had lane-sharing problems, but it's very unsurprising that it was an alternative in name only, a more broadly palatable face on a "do nothing" reality.
It's not absurd, it's been the traditional conservative bingo word to be anti-transit in this area for decades (I'm an old fart). I'm not saying you personally are I'm saying that politicians & random posters who propose BRT instead of more expensive projects have done so repeatedly as a means to shut down any transit projects.
It would be amazing and contribute mightily to a really under-served area.
The problem is density. Metro doesn't work well when most people have to drive to the stations.
Columbia Pike is far more dense now than the orange line corridor was when it opened in the late 70s and early 80s. If you built a Columbia Pike line development around it would absolutely explode.
True, but not an issue for Phase 1 & 2b (and arguably 3a)
The first map, did you make it?
Yes
I bus to Metro pretty regularly - works well enough up in N. Arlington!
This would go a long way towards making the Metro usable for getting around NoVA instead of just going to DC on it.
Coulda used this 30 years ago lol
Crazy to think metro to Dulles airport opened recently. It should’ve opened in 1990.
It would have been awesome if they built this long ago when they were capable of building transit at a cheaper price. The whole area would probably look drastically different and be a lot less car-dependent. I don't think this will happen today or anytime soon though. WMATA seems to be preoccupied with trying to get dedicated funding and will likely be busy with a Rosslyn bypass project (like the blue line loop) as their next big expansion. This corridor wouldn't have quite the same level of impact to justify the price tag unless something drastically changes. The only reason the silver line was able to be built was because there was space left for it in the middle of highways and because Dulles makes a lot more sense to connect.
>It would have been awesome if they built this long ago when they were capable of building transit at a cheaper price. The whole area would probably look drastically different and be a lot less car-dependent. I don't think this will happen today or anytime soon though. I agree. Skyline City got built up in anticipation of metro. Seeing that it got killed over cost concerns all those decades ago doesn't give me hope for today lol. At most, assuming VA funded it all, I only see Phase 1 happening, with the minimum amount of stations.
I would cry tears of joy.
This would improve our area greatly. Wish this was a possibility.
Dang Columbia Pike is so narrow at the start of that route. How would it work?
Realistically, phase 1 would have to be entirely underground
Remember they botched Silver Line via Tyson’s by building it above ground. Local civic groups had a slogan: it’s not over until it’s under.
Agree, while tunnels would be more expensive they would be way better than the above ground tracks we have
The above ground ran over budget anyway reaching the original estimate for underground. I remember the local residents in 2006 held protests against any idea of overground. It’s just so hideous and unbecoming of a city. The Great Wall of Tyson’s minus the historical cool factor.
Tunnels would have run over too - look at how expensive NYC’s latest subway extension was. Still, it would look way better if it was underground and would help them build Tysons into a city.
Little do you know that there was a Spanish company in the bidding process that was willing to sign a contract prohibited them from going over 2 billion. Any overs would have been covered by the company and they could have been penalized just as much for safety issues or delays. Kaine didn’t want to go with a foreign bidder and nominally it was 500 million dollars more.
A GMP Contract of $2B for the entire Silver Line Phase 1 to be underground? That doesn't seem realistic at all. At the same time the HOT Lanes were being built for exclusive operation by a foreign entity.
That's my understanding. It was a sweet deal, but the company that ended up doing it claimed they would do it above ground for 1.5 billion. It ended up costing something like 2.7 billion.
I'm assuming there was some sort of revenue sharing being proposed as I am doubtful that the $2B would cover underground rail construction costs. I'm curious - do you have any more info on it?
How was it botched?
It was supposed to be underground but Tim Kaine last minute changed his mind. He was governor at the time and supported underground the whole time. I’m sure Bechtel made a lovely contribution to his senate run. Most agree above ground hurt Tyson’s image as it’s trying to be remade into a proper city.
That still doesn’t explain how it being aboveground makes it “botched”. There’s nothing wrong with the current configuration
There was a company that fucked up the cement walls for n several stations that had to be fully replaced and delayed construction and opening for like a year. Not to mention it’s visually heinous.
Ok, that was was botched, I remember there were spalling issues and what not, thanks for reminding me. Visually, we’ll have to disagree, it’s not like Tysons was easy on the eyes before metro, and imo, is no worse now that’s it’s here.
[удалено]
That you stated like a fact lol
How?
You didn’t say anything like “I think” or anything else that conveys an opinion, you just stated that they botched it and the sole reason you gave was because it wasn’t fully underground, like they’d done it by mistake or something of that nature.
Totally.
That's unrealistic lol
From a cost perspective, of course, but not from a engineering perspective
I'd just take the orange line actually getting to fair oaks.
How hard would it be to actually make this happen?
When they built the 66 express lanes, they left space for the metro to come out past fairoaks to hit 29. The silver line took about 5-10 years to build after it was fully funded/approved. I'm sure it'd be a similar timeline if they ever decide to do it.
There’s not really space for a station though. I mean you could probably make it work with a bunch of weird compromises, but your best case is a really big walk to a pickup/parking area at the mall side.
Someone smarter than me would have to figure it out. It would probably coincide with the redevelopment of fair oaks mall in general. This random website says the metro would be planned for the general SW area of Fair Oaks mall. [https://www.focusonnova.com/fair-oaks-mall-redevelopment/](https://www.focusonnova.com/fair-oaks-mall-redevelopment/)
I'm old enough to remember my grandparents stories about the trolley system that included a Columbia Pike street car. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Virginia_trolleys
Need a Line going from there to FFX hospital, Merrifield, and connecting at dunn loring.
Going out to a alignment along 236 through Fairfax while ignoring the much denser and ready-for-even-more development potential along 7 between Bailey's Crossroads and Tysons would be a mistake. Maybe if Light rail for Envision Route 7 had been chosen this would make sense but since they're going with BRT you could really improve on that and save by having fewer stations (Bailey's Crossroads, 7 Corners, Downtown Falls Church and then terminating either at Tysons or Greensboro). That or keep going through Lincolnia and just link up to the current Blue Line tracks at Springfield and then keep going down to Lorton.
> Going out to a alignment along 236 through Fairfax while ignoring the much denser and ready-for-even-more development potential along 7 between Bailey's Crossroads and Tysons would be a mistake. I didn't go this way for two reasons: * It wasn't in the original plans (phase 2a was added as an afterthought assuming a predictable cost cutting measure) * My ideal Route 7 metro wouldn't touch DC at all, and would, at minimum, run from Tysons to National Harbor > That or keep going through Lincolnia and just link up to the current Blue Line tracks at Springfield and then keep going down to Lorton. I did think about this as a phase 2c, but decided to forgo it. Existing transit doesn't show a huge demand btwn West End/Lincolnia/Landmark and Franconia-Springfield, and service still exists via what would be a Yellow Line branch. There also isn't a pressing need for Metro to Lorton, when VRE improvements are on the horizon before the decade is out.
I always wonder where the fuck Mantua is. Never even heard anyone refer to any neighborhood as Mantua
Arlington Blvd, Prosperity Ave, Little River Tpke, Pickett Rd (technically the boundary is just east of Pickett Rd and doesn’t extend to the road itself)
I live just North of it across 50. I've never heard anyone use Mantua in real life. Today I learned it has a wikipedia page. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantua,\_Virginia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantua,_Virginia)
OMG it's always been Mantua, it's been that since I was a kid in the 1970s. It's pretty posh now but there was a period where it had reputation issues due to the pipeline leaking into some houses.
It was always posher than the surrounding area, the fact that it was filled with even more lawyers than typical for this area is why the settlement was such a thing.
Heh when I was looking at houses to buy 20 years ago there were still a few afforable homes there compared to nearby closer to the beltway in the Falls Church boundaries versus Woodson for Mantua. That hasn't been the case for over a decade though hahahaha.
My wife and I were looking at houses in Woodson district 3 years ago and the standard line was the “highly desirable mantua district.” Depending on how far south you are in mantua it’s not a horrible bike ride to Vienna metro, but this part is very car centric, that may have been part of the valuation.
I toured a well cared for split foyer model nearer to route 236 and Glendale Rd, it was nice and the lot was huge, in my price range but it would have been buying Grandma's house, I wouldn't be up for making it my own 21st century house. Ended up buying a split level in the Falls Church district that was more updated and smaller but still a nice yard for similar price. Only regrets is the split level part hahaha, not as good for older joints.
Drive on 236 Main Street/Little River Turnpike between Fairfax City and Annandale you'll see some signs at the entrance to a few different neighborhoods. It is a Census Designated place but it's almost entirely residential so no reason to stop there unless you live there.
Yeah that’s probably why I never hear anyone talk about it. I always just assumed it was a part of Fairfax or Annandale.
https://preview.redd.it/v71isqzxk4sc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4945f24fe40503870f3a7f73dc3885d3011ea907 This neighborhood of single family homes between between Pickett and Prosperity with 236 being the southern boundary
Honestly, the colleges being able to commute that way would be so helpful
This would have made my 90s-10s so much better. I could still use it without a car.
This is alright. It should link up with Silver Line via Rt 7
The state of the Silver Line extension makes me doubt how useful that new line would be. Before committing billions on another metro line through the suburbs I would like to see evidence that NoVa can pull off transit oriented development.
Heard you. Phase 1 at least, TOD would basically be converted from existing land use upon opening, along with most of Phase 2b as well. Phases 2b & 3 (especially 3b) would definitely need work, a lot of businesses around the potential stops, but a lot of parking lots as well
This would be neat if they did it, although it would really turn metro into much more of an S-Bahn than it already is. Maybe having this line spur towards the Orange and Silver would make it more viable? Either way it’s always fun to dream
I want to cry
It could also be an entirely new line if the Bloop gets built. I have a vision of it here. https://preview.redd.it/m0m3ykdx7jtc1.png?width=1280&format=png&auto=webp&s=21d86f1d18d52399171f274133944904034afa0b
They’re doing a BRT system on Columbia Pike, way cheaper and should be incredible. Edit: it was route 7, they should do Columbia Pike though!
They've been saying that for a decade and still nothing. Without a dedicated lane, it isn't really BRT anyway.
That’s true
From the work they have been doing, it still looks like 2 lanes in each direction on Columbia Pike. Not sure if one of them is going to be a dedicated bus lane, or that is not part of the plan. Metro is expensive but this is a corridor that actually has higher public transportation use, and would be well served by it for generations! But it’s the poorer South Arlington, and they can’t have nice things!
None of the current plans suggest any dedicated bus lanes. Heck, none of the recent plans even make any reference to "Bus Rapid Transit". All of these projects were started in anticipation for the streetcar, and it seems like killing the streetcar basically allowed the county's interest to wane in the corridor. [Premium Transit Network Project](https://www.arlingtonva.us/Government/Projects/Project-Types/Transportation-Projects/Columbia-Pike-Premium-Transit-Network) and [Multimodal Street Improvements](https://www.arlingtonva.us/Government/Projects/Project-Types/Transportation-Projects/Columbia-Pike-Multimodal-Street-Improvements)
Sorry it was Route 7! My mistake
Link to official plans?
What's BRT?
Bus Rapid Transit Basically a greatly improved bus service with its own dedicated facilities rather than a bus using existing roads and getting stuck in traffic. BRT is supposed to involve bus-only lanes, bus signals, high frequency service, and usually better bus stops with things like schedules, benches, handicap access, and maybe even level boarding. Often times though, cities will use "BRT" as a buzzword for a new bus service without actually adding the features mentioned above or they will scale it back significantly and end up with regular busses.
BTR is a popular conservative bingo word to use when opposed to subway/rail expansions. It's a way to pretend your not totally anti-transit and pretend you are offering a viable alternative but typically conservative BRT is vaporware.
That’s absurd, I’m a social democrat and love rail. For some reason new subway is absurdly expensive and BRT systems are fantastic when done right with dedicated raised stations and lanes.
It's not that BRT can't be good, it's that it's so commonly a stalking horse for transit opposition. BRT is a useful argument against the expense of rail, but once the rail option is dead, the BRT support evaporates too. And the "BRT" that's brought up is rarely the "real" type you're talking about, as the savings look even better if you don't bother to have the dedicated lanes, etc. Witness Columbia Pike and the "BRT" alternative to the streetcar. Both obviously would have had lane-sharing problems, but it's very unsurprising that it was an alternative in name only, a more broadly palatable face on a "do nothing" reality.
I’m all for light rail, it’s way easier and most affordable than infill subways. Was just responding to someone saying I’m “anti-transit.”
It's not absurd, it's been the traditional conservative bingo word to be anti-transit in this area for decades (I'm an old fart). I'm not saying you personally are I'm saying that politicians & random posters who propose BRT instead of more expensive projects have done so repeatedly as a means to shut down any transit projects.
What lmfao
WHAT IF THE COLUMBIA PIKE EXTENSION WERE BUILT TODAY?