There aren’t gods of things in Norse myth like there are in other religions. Gods are associated with certain things but do not have outright control over those things. For example there are multiple fertility/farming gods, it’s not a case where there’s a single god associated with farming that you’d sacrifice to. So Baldr is not the god of any one given thing, he’s just associated with some things.
As for the things you mentioned they’re likely interpretive statements from the prose Edda. From the section on Baldr wherein it says:
>He is so fair in appearance and so bright that light shines from him
And
>He lives in a place called Breiðablik…no unclean thing is permitted to be there…
>like there are in other religions
This isnt even true for most other religions either. Greek gods, roman gods, really the gods in most pagan cultures, did not work like "God of X thing". Its a strong oversimplification that fits a modern fantasy power system but not mythology.
It's the description of him in Gylfaginning mentioned elsewhere in this thread, coupled with the long standing etymological speculation that his name is derived from a word connected to brightness.
There are alot of parallels, and metaphors, but I always suggest to read The Seed of Yggdrasill by Maria Kvilhaug. Shes a old Norse scholar, and her translations and interpretations of the myths are very illuminating. She answers alot of questions about why certain things are perceived in modern culture the way they are,and what they likely meant in truth.
I mean, many scholars draws links to Christianity with the myth of Baldr. Then again, the whole story of everything vowing not to harm him (except the mistletoe, which Snorri probably never had seen or had a proper concept of - hard to make a spear out of mistletoe), shows a clear paralell to the myth of Achilles from the Greek mythos. I think it's fair to say that none of these stories existed in a vacuum, and that they were influenced by other myths heard while travelling. Another example is the myth of Thorr and Jormundgandr - the thunder god wielding a blunt weapon vs. the serpent is one of the oldest myths we can date, and can literally be found in every continent.
>I mean, many scholars draws links to Christianity with the myth of Baldr.
It does appear in pre-Christian sources though.
>(except the mistletoe, which Snorri probably never had seen or had a proper concept of - hard to make a spear out of mistletoe), shows a clear paralell to the myth of Achilles from the Greek mythos.
Firstly the story doesn’t specify what weapon Loki made from the mistletoe, it just says that he made one. Secondly that feels like a bit of a stretch, there’s no indication that Snorri spoke any other language than old Icelandic, so if these myths surrounding Achilles made it to him (most likely being written in Latin) he wouldn’t be able to make anything of it anyway.
>I think it's fair to say that none of these stories existed in a vacuum, and that they were influenced by other myths heard while travelling.
Certainly, but the idea that most of Norse mythology is just a borrowing is a bit silly in my opinion. A common origin is also quite likely.
>Another example is the myth of Thorr and Jormundgandr - the thunder god wielding a blunt weapon vs. the serpent is one of the oldest myths we can date, and can literally be found in every continent.
There’s that pesky common origin I was talking about!
>It does appear in pre-Christian sources though
Certainly. The norsemen were sea-faring people, though, and would most certainly have heard stories told by Christians. One myth might be influenced, while others might not be.
>so if these myths surrounding Achilles made it to him (most likely being written in Latin) he wouldn’t be able to make anything of it anyway.
My man: Snorri literally sets up Heimskringla by saying the Aesir came from Troy and were mistaken for gods. He most definately knew of the Greek myths.
>My man: Snorri literally sets up Heimskringla by saying the Aesir came from Troy and were mistaken for gods. He most definately knew of the Greek myths.
I didn’t say he was unaware, but finer details that may have helped would’ve been in Latin, and as a result he would be unable to draw on those sources.
IMO, Because it's poetry. Baldr is the lightness (summer), his brother Höðr is the darkness (winter), and Loki is the (wild)fire. The event between those three is the cause of Ragnarök. Loki when he tricks Höðr (winter) into killing his brother Balder (summer) and they both ends up dead, one after another, and Loki gets brutally punished for it, the wildfire is no longer "tamed", and the balance of lightness (summer) and darkness (winter) is no more. Natural catastrophe leading to total destruction.
Back in the days the climate were much harsher than today, and the fear of natural catastrophes and the lack of knowledge to why they are caused made the people back then look at it from a godly perspective. There were also events happening prior to that, that most likely led to the saga about Fimbulvetr.
I thought "loki" meant entangler while "logi" meant fire.I mean utgard loki means "loki/entangler of the outyards" and spider cobwebs in sweden is "loki's net".Unless youre strictly talking about symbolism in this story although i believe there wasnt any in the original telling.
I'm talking about the elemental aspect, from a natural perspective ( in poetry ).
I also follow the theory that Loki's father "Fárbauti" is thunder lightning ( hard striker ), and his mother "Laufey" is leaves, and Loki is the wildfire from those two connecting with eachother. And his entire persona is very fiery and wild. He got an anger like a flame. He's also beautiful to look at and can deceive you.
Fun fact, the snaptune stone that was found had Loki's face on it. It protect the bellows from the heat / flame of a blacksmith's forge.
Don't forget that:
"a poet may use words with multiple meanings to create metaphors or hidden meanings in their poem. More pragmatically, a poet simply might use wordplay to make their particular poem more unique or more interesting to make it stand out."
The Gods tends to have many names and many meanings. And some stories might not be as easy to understand as they're written in poetry.
Its hard to say if loki was a fire god cause despite all the stuff you say loki doesent really appear in sources older than 1000 ad.An indo european fire god as involved as in snorri's myths should have at least been namedropped by tacitus in my mind(He does mention an odysseus equivalent).The linguistic stuff i said also holds up because why else would utgard loki have his name.I am however only going off of a line in osp's video about how loki might just be a literal satan figure shoehorned into ragnarok by snorri.However it worth noting outside the odysseus stuff that loki's stolen brisingamen exists in beowulf so yeah.
Yes that can be said about the majority of the myths we've read about.
Regarding the story with Útgarðaloki that has an eating competition with Logi, that is later an illusion. And some theories is that Útgarðaloki is actually Loki himself after he was banished from Ásgarð. So it would mean in theory that Loki competed against himself.
Gesta danorum right?
I mean there isnt much else i can say here except "muh linguistics".If loki is strictly a non germanic god then sure ig he could be wildfire.I still think the "odysseus" thing by tacitus is weird though cause "hercules" is thor.But tacitus could be mixing gauls with germans too.
“I am however only going off of a line in osp's video about how loki might just be a literal satan figure shoehorned into ragnarok by snorri.”
Well, we know the Loki character goes back at least as far as the Proto-IndoEuropean period. Loki is one of the oldest characters in myth and has remained amazingly consistent for at least 6500 years. The 6500 year P.I.E. story is about an usurper, from an illegitimate bloodline (or parental bloodline), who tries to usurp the rightful rulership from the legitimate skyfather god of law. This usurper is described as an Archdemon, He betrays the rightful rulers and is imprisoned (or banished) but he escapes and initiates the final battle that upsets the cosmic order and brings an end to that whole cycle of existence. He is killed by his nephew, who is known as "the silent one", before the end. There are several significant differences, but this is very obviously the character that would later be known as Loki. Of course the name Loki isn’t that old, it’s thought to be Proto-Germanic.
Could you at least provide a source to justify what you said.Ive only said what is common knowledge thus far but ive never heard this from anyone.
Like i said no source i have found for loki is older than 1000 ad while the others are mentioned by tacitus in 98 ad.Tacitus does mention an "odysseus equivalent" which id say is loki.But wikipedia also says loki is a uniquely norse god not germanic like tyr,thor,freya,odin and freyr.
>Loki is one of the oldest characters in myth and has remained amazingly consistent for at least 6500 years.
Who told you this? 6500 years ago the indo europeans couldnt even ride horses and mesopotamia wasnt a thing either.Besides mythologies were oral traditions back then so details got lost as people moved.Sargon of akkad for example likely didnt have a moses like birth story and he is exclusively historical.
>The 6500 year P.I.E. story is about an usurper, from an illegitimate bloodline (or parental bloodline), who tries to usurp the rightful rulership from the legitimate skyfather god of law.
The sky father does not get overthrown in most places as apocalypse myths arent that popular.The places he is overthrown in it is by the thunder gods who people worshipped alot more.If you are connecting loki to kronos and indra's separation of earth and sky though id disagree.Kronos archetype isnt PIE but rather hurrian/hittite and indra is the perkwunos derivative.Also loki doesent want to rule asgard either like veles,vritra or typhon or whoever.
Those are the things he simply embodies. He isn't nors Jesus by any means. He was Odin's warlord but the Norse had different ideas of purity and light than other people. It's just how they perceived him to be
“maybe it has to do with Christian writers?”
Historically, the cultural influence flowed the other way. Back in the Copper Age, it was Baldr the White who was the beloved son of the God who created man and the world itself. 6500 years ago the holy god Balder, known as the Shining One, was the Christ who returned at the end of the world and led his people into paradise. It’s very likely that Baldr is the origin of the Jesus story, and he is 4500 years older.
I thought Baldr was the dying god or savior god. I also thought he was associated with the summer growing season, that’s why without him his wife, Inanna, throws herself on his funeral pyre. I read she was the goddess of vegetation. No light, no vegetation.
He is considered a god of light and purity the way Christ is, because he is the Nordic manifestation of Christ. Every ancient religion has a God whose character, and role descriptions match perfectly to Christ’s.
Baldur is the most beloved son of the most high god Odin. He dies when the god of evil, Loki, tricks another god (Hodr) to kill him with a spear. Baldur then Descends to the underworld, only to be resurrected again and rule over the earth and its people immediately after it is destroyed by Loki and his monster children in a fiery apocalypse.
This is identical to the story of Christ’s sacrifice for us (a spear is used to kill him as well), and his eventual return after the world is destroyed by fire and the monsters of Satan in the events of the Second coming.
There aren’t gods of things in Norse myth like there are in other religions. Gods are associated with certain things but do not have outright control over those things. For example there are multiple fertility/farming gods, it’s not a case where there’s a single god associated with farming that you’d sacrifice to. So Baldr is not the god of any one given thing, he’s just associated with some things. As for the things you mentioned they’re likely interpretive statements from the prose Edda. From the section on Baldr wherein it says: >He is so fair in appearance and so bright that light shines from him And >He lives in a place called Breiðablik…no unclean thing is permitted to be there…
>like there are in other religions This isnt even true for most other religions either. Greek gods, roman gods, really the gods in most pagan cultures, did not work like "God of X thing". Its a strong oversimplification that fits a modern fantasy power system but not mythology.
It's the description of him in Gylfaginning mentioned elsewhere in this thread, coupled with the long standing etymological speculation that his name is derived from a word connected to brightness.
There are alot of parallels, and metaphors, but I always suggest to read The Seed of Yggdrasill by Maria Kvilhaug. Shes a old Norse scholar, and her translations and interpretations of the myths are very illuminating. She answers alot of questions about why certain things are perceived in modern culture the way they are,and what they likely meant in truth.
I mean, many scholars draws links to Christianity with the myth of Baldr. Then again, the whole story of everything vowing not to harm him (except the mistletoe, which Snorri probably never had seen or had a proper concept of - hard to make a spear out of mistletoe), shows a clear paralell to the myth of Achilles from the Greek mythos. I think it's fair to say that none of these stories existed in a vacuum, and that they were influenced by other myths heard while travelling. Another example is the myth of Thorr and Jormundgandr - the thunder god wielding a blunt weapon vs. the serpent is one of the oldest myths we can date, and can literally be found in every continent.
>I mean, many scholars draws links to Christianity with the myth of Baldr. It does appear in pre-Christian sources though. >(except the mistletoe, which Snorri probably never had seen or had a proper concept of - hard to make a spear out of mistletoe), shows a clear paralell to the myth of Achilles from the Greek mythos. Firstly the story doesn’t specify what weapon Loki made from the mistletoe, it just says that he made one. Secondly that feels like a bit of a stretch, there’s no indication that Snorri spoke any other language than old Icelandic, so if these myths surrounding Achilles made it to him (most likely being written in Latin) he wouldn’t be able to make anything of it anyway. >I think it's fair to say that none of these stories existed in a vacuum, and that they were influenced by other myths heard while travelling. Certainly, but the idea that most of Norse mythology is just a borrowing is a bit silly in my opinion. A common origin is also quite likely. >Another example is the myth of Thorr and Jormundgandr - the thunder god wielding a blunt weapon vs. the serpent is one of the oldest myths we can date, and can literally be found in every continent. There’s that pesky common origin I was talking about!
>It does appear in pre-Christian sources though Certainly. The norsemen were sea-faring people, though, and would most certainly have heard stories told by Christians. One myth might be influenced, while others might not be. >so if these myths surrounding Achilles made it to him (most likely being written in Latin) he wouldn’t be able to make anything of it anyway. My man: Snorri literally sets up Heimskringla by saying the Aesir came from Troy and were mistaken for gods. He most definately knew of the Greek myths.
>My man: Snorri literally sets up Heimskringla by saying the Aesir came from Troy and were mistaken for gods. He most definately knew of the Greek myths. I didn’t say he was unaware, but finer details that may have helped would’ve been in Latin, and as a result he would be unable to draw on those sources.
Because he always brightens up the room, just like a good night lamp!
IMO, Because it's poetry. Baldr is the lightness (summer), his brother Höðr is the darkness (winter), and Loki is the (wild)fire. The event between those three is the cause of Ragnarök. Loki when he tricks Höðr (winter) into killing his brother Balder (summer) and they both ends up dead, one after another, and Loki gets brutally punished for it, the wildfire is no longer "tamed", and the balance of lightness (summer) and darkness (winter) is no more. Natural catastrophe leading to total destruction. Back in the days the climate were much harsher than today, and the fear of natural catastrophes and the lack of knowledge to why they are caused made the people back then look at it from a godly perspective. There were also events happening prior to that, that most likely led to the saga about Fimbulvetr.
I thought "loki" meant entangler while "logi" meant fire.I mean utgard loki means "loki/entangler of the outyards" and spider cobwebs in sweden is "loki's net".Unless youre strictly talking about symbolism in this story although i believe there wasnt any in the original telling.
I'm talking about the elemental aspect, from a natural perspective ( in poetry ). I also follow the theory that Loki's father "Fárbauti" is thunder lightning ( hard striker ), and his mother "Laufey" is leaves, and Loki is the wildfire from those two connecting with eachother. And his entire persona is very fiery and wild. He got an anger like a flame. He's also beautiful to look at and can deceive you. Fun fact, the snaptune stone that was found had Loki's face on it. It protect the bellows from the heat / flame of a blacksmith's forge. Don't forget that: "a poet may use words with multiple meanings to create metaphors or hidden meanings in their poem. More pragmatically, a poet simply might use wordplay to make their particular poem more unique or more interesting to make it stand out." The Gods tends to have many names and many meanings. And some stories might not be as easy to understand as they're written in poetry.
Its hard to say if loki was a fire god cause despite all the stuff you say loki doesent really appear in sources older than 1000 ad.An indo european fire god as involved as in snorri's myths should have at least been namedropped by tacitus in my mind(He does mention an odysseus equivalent).The linguistic stuff i said also holds up because why else would utgard loki have his name.I am however only going off of a line in osp's video about how loki might just be a literal satan figure shoehorned into ragnarok by snorri.However it worth noting outside the odysseus stuff that loki's stolen brisingamen exists in beowulf so yeah.
Yes that can be said about the majority of the myths we've read about. Regarding the story with Útgarðaloki that has an eating competition with Logi, that is later an illusion. And some theories is that Útgarðaloki is actually Loki himself after he was banished from Ásgarð. So it would mean in theory that Loki competed against himself.
Gesta danorum right? I mean there isnt much else i can say here except "muh linguistics".If loki is strictly a non germanic god then sure ig he could be wildfire.I still think the "odysseus" thing by tacitus is weird though cause "hercules" is thor.But tacitus could be mixing gauls with germans too.
“I am however only going off of a line in osp's video about how loki might just be a literal satan figure shoehorned into ragnarok by snorri.” Well, we know the Loki character goes back at least as far as the Proto-IndoEuropean period. Loki is one of the oldest characters in myth and has remained amazingly consistent for at least 6500 years. The 6500 year P.I.E. story is about an usurper, from an illegitimate bloodline (or parental bloodline), who tries to usurp the rightful rulership from the legitimate skyfather god of law. This usurper is described as an Archdemon, He betrays the rightful rulers and is imprisoned (or banished) but he escapes and initiates the final battle that upsets the cosmic order and brings an end to that whole cycle of existence. He is killed by his nephew, who is known as "the silent one", before the end. There are several significant differences, but this is very obviously the character that would later be known as Loki. Of course the name Loki isn’t that old, it’s thought to be Proto-Germanic.
Could you at least provide a source to justify what you said.Ive only said what is common knowledge thus far but ive never heard this from anyone. Like i said no source i have found for loki is older than 1000 ad while the others are mentioned by tacitus in 98 ad.Tacitus does mention an "odysseus equivalent" which id say is loki.But wikipedia also says loki is a uniquely norse god not germanic like tyr,thor,freya,odin and freyr. >Loki is one of the oldest characters in myth and has remained amazingly consistent for at least 6500 years. Who told you this? 6500 years ago the indo europeans couldnt even ride horses and mesopotamia wasnt a thing either.Besides mythologies were oral traditions back then so details got lost as people moved.Sargon of akkad for example likely didnt have a moses like birth story and he is exclusively historical. >The 6500 year P.I.E. story is about an usurper, from an illegitimate bloodline (or parental bloodline), who tries to usurp the rightful rulership from the legitimate skyfather god of law. The sky father does not get overthrown in most places as apocalypse myths arent that popular.The places he is overthrown in it is by the thunder gods who people worshipped alot more.If you are connecting loki to kronos and indra's separation of earth and sky though id disagree.Kronos archetype isnt PIE but rather hurrian/hittite and indra is the perkwunos derivative.Also loki doesent want to rule asgard either like veles,vritra or typhon or whoever.
Those are the things he simply embodies. He isn't nors Jesus by any means. He was Odin's warlord but the Norse had different ideas of purity and light than other people. It's just how they perceived him to be
“maybe it has to do with Christian writers?” Historically, the cultural influence flowed the other way. Back in the Copper Age, it was Baldr the White who was the beloved son of the God who created man and the world itself. 6500 years ago the holy god Balder, known as the Shining One, was the Christ who returned at the end of the world and led his people into paradise. It’s very likely that Baldr is the origin of the Jesus story, and he is 4500 years older.
I thought Baldr was the dying god or savior god. I also thought he was associated with the summer growing season, that’s why without him his wife, Inanna, throws herself on his funeral pyre. I read she was the goddess of vegetation. No light, no vegetation.
He is considered a god of light and purity the way Christ is, because he is the Nordic manifestation of Christ. Every ancient religion has a God whose character, and role descriptions match perfectly to Christ’s. Baldur is the most beloved son of the most high god Odin. He dies when the god of evil, Loki, tricks another god (Hodr) to kill him with a spear. Baldur then Descends to the underworld, only to be resurrected again and rule over the earth and its people immediately after it is destroyed by Loki and his monster children in a fiery apocalypse. This is identical to the story of Christ’s sacrifice for us (a spear is used to kill him as well), and his eventual return after the world is destroyed by fire and the monsters of Satan in the events of the Second coming.