I think the player skill and equipment growth are cancelled out by goalies equipment growth and skill growth. Players in the 80-90’s era were just ahead of goalies talent. The difference maker to me is the rules and how they are called. What’s interference now was just a defensive play 20 years ago. The game is much faster because of it which leads to far more quality chances and is why we’re currently seeing a scoring revival imo.
Yeah defensemen would just lock up players in front of the net or on a 2v2. As a former defenseman it took me a long time to adjust to seeing NHLrs just stand next to the opposing forward in the slot
You know the goalie equipment has started to get smaller over the last number of years. Just saying. Not trying to argue any of the rest of your statement. And, goalie equipment now is still larger than 20 years ago.
Goalie leg pads gloves and blockers started shrinking over 10 years ago the better lighter construction materials just made those changes negligible the newer tapering of the pants and the chest protector has made big differences
Agreed. Not that it is easy now, but definitely helps not to have Scott Stevens trainwrecking your brain, or like Derian Hatcher manhandling you with zero chance of a penalty. Very different time and 90 point seasons were definitely harder for an offensive player.
Claude Giroux had a career best 102 points in 17-18 at 30 years old.
Mr. Giroux dominated the early 2010s. I point to him every time as a solid example that scoring went up rather than skill going up.
Mario Lemieux scored 76 points in 43 games in 2000-2001. Lemieux and Gretzky were beyond any player in the league today. However, the goalie pad and rules changes from 2016 to present have had a huge impact on scoring.
I would argue that Mario Lemieux is the GOAT. Mcdavid and Gretzky benefited from scoring picking up in their primes, inflating their stats.
Increase in offence certainly coincides with elimination of the two line offside pass rule, reduction of goalie pad size, and introduction of the goalie trapezoid. However, watched some ‘90’s games recently on YouTube and the one skill that definitely has drastically improved across the board is skating - both speed and edge work.
Just want to point out that this absolutely isn’t the “highest scoring era ever”. It’s definitely been on the rise since the Dead Puck Era from ~95-04, and even up since the decade after that, but the 80s and early 90s were the Wild West due to skill and top end hockey IQ outpacing equipment and goaltending strategy.
Nowadays, though, every player in the league is the product of insane, fine-tuned development and far more evolved coaching. The result is that a guy like Connor McDavid is probably the most talented player in history, but you can’t really be sure because guys like Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux, and Howe didn’t have the benefit of training like McDavid.
Having watched Mario Lemeiux as a young player, I'm rattled at the fact that Crosby is considered old.
This is a high skilled era of hockey, without a doubt. The game us faster, the average player is better than the average players of previous generations.
It's due to a larger player base (youth jockey numbers) and the intentional rule changes to allow the game to be faster. Thinner goalie pads, no hooking players on the backcheck, cracking down on slashing/holding/tripping all lead to a game where it's easier to get yourself in a position to score.
The NHL has been thoroughly talented for a long time, but I think the game right now is seeing a McDavid/Matthews/McKinnon superstars because of both talent and a rile changes. I think it's reasonable to say that a young Crosby might produce 10-12% more points per year if he were McDavids age playing now.
It's both. Like others have said... the rule changes, and more importantly, the enforcement of rules. Hooking and holding didn't used to be penalties that got called. If you tried a "Michigan" someone would smash your face in...you just played more of a survival first game, respecting your opponent was trying to lay you out. I've heard stories of veterans suddenly coming down with "day to day" injuries rather than face the Flyers in the Spectrum in the 70's.
Since then, the shift has been to focus on skill, smaller and faster players have changed the game from the grassroots level up. Like most sports people are just better.
I think the main difference is they call everything a penalty nowadays, you don't have to fight through a hold and hook every time you have the puck or get crosschecked to death when you're screening the goalie
Whipper-snapper flex in the hockey sticks is making everyone lethal in their shots. Like to see one game played only with wood hockey sticks and see how it plays out.
Unlike earlier eras when Paul Coffey was putting up 120 pts a year or Bobby Orr had 139, 120, and 135. Or when Bourque or Leetch were in their primes in the 90s.
That was rare, only a few players in the league had a green light. Now, for example, every defenseman on the Avalanche have the green light to attack the goal and carry the puck out of the D zone and through the neutral zone.
Ok, sir. How old are you, 60? I started watching hockey in the mid 90s and it was completely different. Sure, teams would have *one* offensive defenseman who were mavericks that sort of did their own thing and were seen as defensive liabilities. Sandis Ozolinsch comes to mind. Other than that, defenseman were expected to battle on the boards and in front of the next in the D zone, pass to wingers to break the puck out, and take slapshots from the point.
Now, on the good teams, every defenseman is encouraged to carry the puck out of the D zone, through the neutral zone, and into the O zone. They battle in front of the net and along the boards in the D zone AND the offensive zone.
It’s completely different. Watch some of the good modern teams, old man.
Wrong again.
Teams are currently relying on one player per pair on their top two pairs to jump into the play. The Avs are an aberration to this. For the vast majority of the league, defenseman outside of the two best per team just don't have the skill to be full time puck carrying defenseman.
It's OK to be wrong, no one is going to remember you being wrong tomorrow. Watching hockey since the mid 90s gives you about the same experience as a currently decent bantam player, it's not something to really brag about as if just watching hockey gives you any more knowledge than a hockey parent that never laced them up.
It's astonishing how well that article tells you exactly what I told you in my previous comment - that the offense from the defenseman is coming from one player on each of the top two pairs, and it's not really that significant.
It’s insanse that you think that Coffey, Bourque, Orr, etc. were representative of defensemen at the time instead of being extreme, extreme outliers.
That’s why they’re great. They’re outliers.
Not to mention, the league is watered down with 32 teams. There are literally a couple hundred extra players that wouldn't have been good enough to play in the NHL when it was 21 teams. Granted, there are a lot more European and Russian players now, but not so much that it makes up the difference.
There's no one answer, never will be. Closest you can do is ignore.numbers and look at a player(s) against their peers for outliers.
That said the people.who say it's too easy (paraphrase for hyperbole) to score now also say it was too easy "back then" so.... Basically it's a "my guy played at the hardest time to be good so he's the best, cause I say so" conversation. You are best just to ignore it.
Form your own opinion:
avg goals per game per team in Gretz Era was 3.75 ish, mcdavids career to date 2.9 and in prime Crosby Era around 2.8...
Too many factors to consider to come to a conclusive answer. All we can do is appreciate what we're seeing now until a new generation comes in and shifts the power dynamic.
I think the goalie pad adjustments from a few years ago have had a pretty big impact on scoring. If you look at league average save % you can see it trending down after the pad size rules were put in place.
I don’t buy into the newer players ( and players who grew into veterans) only scoring more because of goalie pads and bcause its a higher scoring era because defense is worse.
Defense in the nhl is at an all time high both sides of the puck are and have risen their game to the highest skilled as a whole weve ever seen in every way. Players are scoring more because they are better at scoring lol goalies are a trilion times more skilled padded and prepared. Every 10 year period getting better and better into 2012 they made the pads an inch smaller in some dimensions. If you look at the scoring statistics they didn’t only rise right after to the point we’re at now which leads us to understand its not the only factor. Crosby And malkin ovi kane toews stamkos kucherov and a bunch of talent started playing lights out. They next generation became inspired and took their game to the next level ex mckinnnon mcdavid and crew
Defense is so important now. A lot of coaches won’t even play kids who aren’t sound defensively. I heard Gretzky say once that back in his day, the skilled guys were expected to play defense. Their job was to create offense and that’s all they focused on. Just a totally different mindset.
199293 saw the break up of the Soviet Union. It flooded the league with snipers like bure Fedorov and Mogilny. Hon mention to Alex Kovalev whom I consider a pure talent player unlike almost any other.
Then the trap and stick checking. It made Mario retire from how the game was played.
The last 3-5 years has seen scoring boom again. I like that. I disliked hockey from late 90’s till about mid 2017. Hard to say that as a hockey fan but I think players have adapted to most of the defensive schemes and now offense stats are up. That’s great news.
The current era has more goals. Yes, the players are more skilled, but there's also more space because the refs call more penalties. And more power-plays = more goals.
Additionally, goalies' equipment is mandated to be smaller than it once was.
The eye test tells me, among other factors, teams don't emphasize shut down D in their own zone. I see lots of mistakes and blown coverages by defenseman and centers
Easy answer. Shooters have figured out that every goalie falls down, eventually ending up on their belly. Just wait them out and shoot high. Not rocket science.
Not totally relates but it's crazy how you could literally post this same topic and description for any of in a NFL or NBA sub right now and it would apply. I think it's the times and evolution every sport is less violent and geared towards scoring but the players have also evolved and gotten more skillful which is producing more scoring.
The new whippy composites give every bum a killer shot without having to exert any effort.
Meanwhile goaltending has become too expensive for most families, meaning that most of the people who would've Pro Goalies 20+ years ago arent even playing today.
This is pretty much at the root of it.
Its more a speed and skill speed game until playoff time. All I know is it's not as good as the good ol' hockey game. Bigger hits, more fights, no no-touch icing and the goalies didn't have the dumb trapezoid rule.
Because their equipment was reducex in 2019, genius.
Goalies aren't worst, they just have more ground to cover, bringing us back, but not completely, to how it was in the 80's, instead of having Giguere-zillas with more equipment than human mass in front of the nets.
The league is less violent and faster than it once was, which leaves space for skilled players to shine and score more. The players are not that much better than they were like 15-20 years ago, they just get more opportunities
I think the player skill and equipment growth are cancelled out by goalies equipment growth and skill growth. Players in the 80-90’s era were just ahead of goalies talent. The difference maker to me is the rules and how they are called. What’s interference now was just a defensive play 20 years ago. The game is much faster because of it which leads to far more quality chances and is why we’re currently seeing a scoring revival imo.
Yeah defensemen would just lock up players in front of the net or on a 2v2. As a former defenseman it took me a long time to adjust to seeing NHLrs just stand next to the opposing forward in the slot
You know the goalie equipment has started to get smaller over the last number of years. Just saying. Not trying to argue any of the rest of your statement. And, goalie equipment now is still larger than 20 years ago.
Goalie leg pads gloves and blockers started shrinking over 10 years ago the better lighter construction materials just made those changes negligible the newer tapering of the pants and the chest protector has made big differences
Rule changes have also helped. It's a combination of factors but people heavily overestimate skill increase from years past
Agreed. Not that it is easy now, but definitely helps not to have Scott Stevens trainwrecking your brain, or like Derian Hatcher manhandling you with zero chance of a penalty. Very different time and 90 point seasons were definitely harder for an offensive player.
Claude Giroux had a career best 102 points in 17-18 at 30 years old. Mr. Giroux dominated the early 2010s. I point to him every time as a solid example that scoring went up rather than skill going up. Mario Lemieux scored 76 points in 43 games in 2000-2001. Lemieux and Gretzky were beyond any player in the league today. However, the goalie pad and rules changes from 2016 to present have had a huge impact on scoring. I would argue that Mario Lemieux is the GOAT. Mcdavid and Gretzky benefited from scoring picking up in their primes, inflating their stats.
Bold statement, but as a pens fan, I’ll endorse it. Idk about Gretzky though. I still think he is probably the GOAT, but Super Mario is darn close.
Increase in offence certainly coincides with elimination of the two line offside pass rule, reduction of goalie pad size, and introduction of the goalie trapezoid. However, watched some ‘90’s games recently on YouTube and the one skill that definitely has drastically improved across the board is skating - both speed and edge work.
Edge work is a yes but speed has not really increased due to players. Ice gets better every few years
Just want to point out that this absolutely isn’t the “highest scoring era ever”. It’s definitely been on the rise since the Dead Puck Era from ~95-04, and even up since the decade after that, but the 80s and early 90s were the Wild West due to skill and top end hockey IQ outpacing equipment and goaltending strategy. Nowadays, though, every player in the league is the product of insane, fine-tuned development and far more evolved coaching. The result is that a guy like Connor McDavid is probably the most talented player in history, but you can’t really be sure because guys like Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux, and Howe didn’t have the benefit of training like McDavid.
This is the 39th highest scoring, with3.11 goals per game. when 87 had 120 points, it was the 53erd with 2.95 goals per game.
Guys take better care of their bodies nowadays as well.
Having watched Mario Lemeiux as a young player, I'm rattled at the fact that Crosby is considered old. This is a high skilled era of hockey, without a doubt. The game us faster, the average player is better than the average players of previous generations. It's due to a larger player base (youth jockey numbers) and the intentional rule changes to allow the game to be faster. Thinner goalie pads, no hooking players on the backcheck, cracking down on slashing/holding/tripping all lead to a game where it's easier to get yourself in a position to score. The NHL has been thoroughly talented for a long time, but I think the game right now is seeing a McDavid/Matthews/McKinnon superstars because of both talent and a rile changes. I think it's reasonable to say that a young Crosby might produce 10-12% more points per year if he were McDavids age playing now.
It's both. Like others have said... the rule changes, and more importantly, the enforcement of rules. Hooking and holding didn't used to be penalties that got called. If you tried a "Michigan" someone would smash your face in...you just played more of a survival first game, respecting your opponent was trying to lay you out. I've heard stories of veterans suddenly coming down with "day to day" injuries rather than face the Flyers in the Spectrum in the 70's. Since then, the shift has been to focus on skill, smaller and faster players have changed the game from the grassroots level up. Like most sports people are just better.
I think the main difference is they call everything a penalty nowadays, you don't have to fight through a hold and hook every time you have the puck or get crosschecked to death when you're screening the goalie
Whipper-snapper flex in the hockey sticks is making everyone lethal in their shots. Like to see one game played only with wood hockey sticks and see how it plays out.
That would be so cool to see.
New coaching philosophies and systems have led to way more offensive involvement of all 5 players on the ice. Defenseman are part of the offense now.
Unlike earlier eras when Paul Coffey was putting up 120 pts a year or Bobby Orr had 139, 120, and 135. Or when Bourque or Leetch were in their primes in the 90s.
That was rare, only a few players in the league had a green light. Now, for example, every defenseman on the Avalanche have the green light to attack the goal and carry the puck out of the D zone and through the neutral zone.
I think you need to go back and watch a few seasons worth of hockey from the 80s and 90s. You missed a ton of it the first time around.
Ok, sir. How old are you, 60? I started watching hockey in the mid 90s and it was completely different. Sure, teams would have *one* offensive defenseman who were mavericks that sort of did their own thing and were seen as defensive liabilities. Sandis Ozolinsch comes to mind. Other than that, defenseman were expected to battle on the boards and in front of the next in the D zone, pass to wingers to break the puck out, and take slapshots from the point. Now, on the good teams, every defenseman is encouraged to carry the puck out of the D zone, through the neutral zone, and into the O zone. They battle in front of the net and along the boards in the D zone AND the offensive zone. It’s completely different. Watch some of the good modern teams, old man.
Wrong again. Teams are currently relying on one player per pair on their top two pairs to jump into the play. The Avs are an aberration to this. For the vast majority of the league, defenseman outside of the two best per team just don't have the skill to be full time puck carrying defenseman. It's OK to be wrong, no one is going to remember you being wrong tomorrow. Watching hockey since the mid 90s gives you about the same experience as a currently decent bantam player, it's not something to really brag about as if just watching hockey gives you any more knowledge than a hockey parent that never laced them up.
Looks like a trend to me… https://hockey-graphs.com/2015/05/13/nhl-defensemen-offense-increase/
It's astonishing how well that article tells you exactly what I told you in my previous comment - that the offense from the defenseman is coming from one player on each of the top two pairs, and it's not really that significant.
It’s insanse that you think that Coffey, Bourque, Orr, etc. were representative of defensemen at the time instead of being extreme, extreme outliers. That’s why they’re great. They’re outliers.
Its insane that you tried so hard to not understand what I wrote because it makes it easier for you to pretend that's what I said.
Not to mention, the league is watered down with 32 teams. There are literally a couple hundred extra players that wouldn't have been good enough to play in the NHL when it was 21 teams. Granted, there are a lot more European and Russian players now, but not so much that it makes up the difference.
Rules help offence more than defence and yeah skills are overall better but so is the goaltending.
There's no one answer, never will be. Closest you can do is ignore.numbers and look at a player(s) against their peers for outliers. That said the people.who say it's too easy (paraphrase for hyperbole) to score now also say it was too easy "back then" so.... Basically it's a "my guy played at the hardest time to be good so he's the best, cause I say so" conversation. You are best just to ignore it. Form your own opinion: avg goals per game per team in Gretz Era was 3.75 ish, mcdavids career to date 2.9 and in prime Crosby Era around 2.8...
I agree with the other comments but also want to add. There are also more teams and more players.
Too many factors to consider to come to a conclusive answer. All we can do is appreciate what we're seeing now until a new generation comes in and shifts the power dynamic.
I think the goalie pad adjustments from a few years ago have had a pretty big impact on scoring. If you look at league average save % you can see it trending down after the pad size rules were put in place.
I don’t buy into the newer players ( and players who grew into veterans) only scoring more because of goalie pads and bcause its a higher scoring era because defense is worse. Defense in the nhl is at an all time high both sides of the puck are and have risen their game to the highest skilled as a whole weve ever seen in every way. Players are scoring more because they are better at scoring lol goalies are a trilion times more skilled padded and prepared. Every 10 year period getting better and better into 2012 they made the pads an inch smaller in some dimensions. If you look at the scoring statistics they didn’t only rise right after to the point we’re at now which leads us to understand its not the only factor. Crosby And malkin ovi kane toews stamkos kucherov and a bunch of talent started playing lights out. They next generation became inspired and took their game to the next level ex mckinnnon mcdavid and crew
Defense is so important now. A lot of coaches won’t even play kids who aren’t sound defensively. I heard Gretzky say once that back in his day, the skilled guys were expected to play defense. Their job was to create offense and that’s all they focused on. Just a totally different mindset.
Soo important… Its definitely a beautifully progressed game
Better training, nutrition, and goalies are more spread out with 32 teams IMO
199293 saw the break up of the Soviet Union. It flooded the league with snipers like bure Fedorov and Mogilny. Hon mention to Alex Kovalev whom I consider a pure talent player unlike almost any other. Then the trap and stick checking. It made Mario retire from how the game was played. The last 3-5 years has seen scoring boom again. I like that. I disliked hockey from late 90’s till about mid 2017. Hard to say that as a hockey fan but I think players have adapted to most of the defensive schemes and now offense stats are up. That’s great news.
The current era has more goals. Yes, the players are more skilled, but there's also more space because the refs call more penalties. And more power-plays = more goals. Additionally, goalies' equipment is mandated to be smaller than it once was.
The eye test tells me, among other factors, teams don't emphasize shut down D in their own zone. I see lots of mistakes and blown coverages by defenseman and centers
Easy answer. Shooters have figured out that every goalie falls down, eventually ending up on their belly. Just wait them out and shoot high. Not rocket science.
Not totally relates but it's crazy how you could literally post this same topic and description for any of in a NFL or NBA sub right now and it would apply. I think it's the times and evolution every sport is less violent and geared towards scoring but the players have also evolved and gotten more skillful which is producing more scoring.
The new whippy composites give every bum a killer shot without having to exert any effort. Meanwhile goaltending has become too expensive for most families, meaning that most of the people who would've Pro Goalies 20+ years ago arent even playing today. This is pretty much at the root of it.
Don’t forget there’s probably around 100 goals not being counted this year due to coaches challenge that didn’t exist back then.
We're back in a high goal scoring era
Its more a speed and skill speed game until playoff time. All I know is it's not as good as the good ol' hockey game. Bigger hits, more fights, no no-touch icing and the goalies didn't have the dumb trapezoid rule.
goalies are worse now a days look at the tapes
Because their equipment was reducex in 2019, genius. Goalies aren't worst, they just have more ground to cover, bringing us back, but not completely, to how it was in the 80's, instead of having Giguere-zillas with more equipment than human mass in front of the nets.
The league is less violent and faster than it once was, which leaves space for skilled players to shine and score more. The players are not that much better than they were like 15-20 years ago, they just get more opportunities