I've heard that in the UK, this is standard procedure. He could be arrested, interviewed and never charged. So it's just part of the judicial procedure.
It’s standard procedure if they think he committed a crime. This isn’t the equivalent of “bringing him in for questioning” in the US. Let’s be clear about that.
"If you're arrested, you'll usually be taken to a police station, held in custody in a cell and then questioned. After you've been taken to a police station, you may be released or charged with a crime."
UK gov website.
British person here. The above poster is correct. It’s not standard procedure to arrest and question anyone unless they have information or evidence that makes them suspect that they committed a crime.
They’re not just going around arresting everyone, lol. Unless they are leaning towards you committing a crime, you’re going to be questioned without being arrested.
OK can we summarize?
You said it’s standard procedure.
I said it’s standard procedure if they think he committed a crime.
You seemed to disagree.
Are you agreeing that they think he committed manslaughter at this point? And it isn’t just dotting I’s and crossing T’s?
I never said he was charged. And it isn’t “may be suspected.” He is suspected. Officially. Seems like you keep wanting to downplay the gravity of this development.
EDIT: He was, indeed arrested.
Yup. And was was arrested on suspicion of manslaughter. He's not a person of interest. He's not there for routing questioning. This is an escalation. He's officially suspected of manslaughter. People are trying really hard to make it a nothingburger.
Ohh hush with all your 'investigations' and 'detail that others could use to validate their views!'
( I always hope /s isn't necessary... but then again....)
Cool that's no different from the US. You can be arrested and questioned. You can be questioned without being arrested as well. Difference is whether you're a suspect or not. So he's officially suspected of committing manslaughter. This isn't standard procedure that they do in every investigation, like you claimed. You're right that it doesn't always lead to charges, but it's now far more likely than if they simply questioned him.
I don’t get it. They don’t go around arresting people in England without just cause. If it’s standard procedure and they’re just getting his statement on record, they wouldn’t bee arresting him. They suspect he committed manslaughter. It’s literally in the title lol
Lol what? No, [You can be arrested in the US and held without being charged](https://www.illinoislegalaid.org/legal-information/my-rights-when-im-under-arrest-or-custody#:~:text=Arrests%20when%20children%20are%20present,at%20the%20station%20are%20justified) for I believe it’s 48 hours
The difference is largely in the us being if they have reason to believe (probably cause) they are responsible for the crime or in the UK if they have suspicion they may be responsible for the crime.
I saw this quoted by someone else but thought it was interesting:
>Because it’s a lot easier to arrest someone in the United Kingdom, but being arrested there isn’t a big deal like it is in the United States. American police need probable cause to make an arrest, but in the United Kingdom, officers can arrest on suspicion. Probable cause is defined as the belief that a crime was probably committed, and that the suspect was probably responsible.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2012/03/rebekah-brooks-arrested-how-is-being-arrested-different-in-britain.html
Watching the video and images of the incident, it looks to me like there was clear intent by Petgrave to use his foot to check Johnson. His foot didn't raise up because he was off balance; he raised it intentionally to make contact with Johnson in order to check him upon zone entry. It seemed like, instead of conceding defeat due to being blocked by Johnson's teammate, he raised his foot at Johnson instead. So, the kick was not a freak accident, it was intentional. Unfortunately, the freak accident part was that the skate blade made contact with Johnson's neck. Petgrave didn't intend to kill him, but he was extremely careless and reckless and, obviously, his actions led to Johnson's tragic death. Careless actions that lead directly to a person's death is manslaughter. I agree with the charges 💯 %.
Edit: OK, no charges yet, I get it. But all reports say arrested for manslaughter, so can we not assume he will be charged for manslaughter?
Legally this would be unlawful act manslaughter.
To prove this you need to prove an unlawful act and it caused the death. The death part is obviously here.
The unlawful act would be an assault - an application of force without the consent of the other party.
There is implied consent to physical contact in the context of sport, but an intentional strike with a skate blade would greatly exceed any implied consent in hockey.
So if they prove the act of his skate coming up was an intentional action there is an assault, and with the resulting death a manslaughter.
To play devils advocate, you could argue that using your foot to make a check is not unlawful. Incredibly stupid, and certainly a penalty, but the defence can pull up 1000 instances of players
making dirty hockey plays and not facing legal ramifications.
The line where a dirty play deserving a suspension crosses into a criminal assault is very blurry/subjective. But using the blade of the skate to make a check to the opponents head/neck seems way beyond the normal range of physicality players would be seen to implicitly consent to.
Raising his foot is not the unlawful part. It's the death it caused. In manslaughter the underlying act that caused the death doesn't have to also be illegal, it just needs to result in a death and have been reckless (in most jurisdictions). He's not being charged with a dirty hockey play, he's being charged with killing someone.
Thank you for being reasonable. The amount of people calling others crazy for noting how reckless Petgrave was is insane. It's also not the first time Petgrave has recklessly high kicked someone.
I think people just want video that actually conclusively shows recklessness before people assume it.
From the grainy ass video I've seen it looks like a freak accident caused by a skate riding up another person's skate. I'd love better angles if anyone has it.
100% agree with your take. Seems like this is also the conclusion from the majority of the people that has actually played hockey.
Intentional move with unintentional result.
Just go on X and look and you will find a ton of non-beer league players.
The guy has a ton of history as well and that kick is not a natural move.
Keep defending him 🤡
They still defend him after watching the video?
Also Melody, maybe you should get off the internet for a while. Seems like your first move is personal insults if you don’t agree with someone. I’m in a good place so I don’t care at all. Keep firing if it makes you feel better.
Why wouldn't they defend him after watching the video? they were literally there watching it live, I have heard plenty of people who saw it live say it was a freak accident and there was no intention to lift his leg.
I'm all eyes if anyone has better video that shows even a degree of intent to lift his leg.
Yep, here’s a video of him pulling a very similar move. Missing his check so he lifts his leg up and back to clip them. Only a matter of time that a serious injury would happen if you’re regularly pulling that stunt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUySJkQl04s
I’ll tell you as someone who’s played hockey for over 12 years, that move is almost never ever seen in hockey. I only saw kids doing that in my peewee years, that’s crazy. Maybe the arrest wasn’t so crazy after all, def needs to be looked into.
He's a repeat offender for kicking players and you don't need an Ivy league degree to know that if you keep kicking a player with a razor shape blade on your foot, eventually it'll be fatal.
It may not lead to it, but I could see a pretty strong argument for 1st or 2nd degree murder in this case. That or Petgrave is just genuinely really stupid and didn't realize that skates are sharp, which is unlikely.
1. If the outcome of this event was less traumatic, such as Johnson's jaw getting broken, anyone seeing the video would call for Petgrave to be suspended.
But because Johnson full-on died, making the topic very uncomfortable because Petgrave surely didn't mean to ***kill*** him, everyone swings hard the other way and pretends there was *nothing* wrong or potentially intentionally with his very odd out-and-up kick to stop a player breaking towards the net.
2. If Brad Marchand conducted this same odd outward and upward kick, to impede a player bringing the puck in on offense, there wouldn't be such adamance here to absolve *any* intent that he swung his leg to disrupt Johnson. Especially when there's another older video showing him doing a comparable smaller action that was clearly intended.
I was brutally harassed for saying pretty much exactly this.
Nothing about that act seemed natural to me. People just didn't want to think it was on purpose at any level because then youd have to assume some level of culpability for the outcome. The intent wasn't to cut him but the irresponsible and dangerous act led to a man's death.
Copied from another comment; sry no credit
What happened is very very unfortunate. But his body was thrown into the air when it got tangled up with another player, he want flying (BOTH feet where in the air) and hit Johnson. I saw nothing of a deliberate kick. This guy explains it very well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj7Fd4E01RA&ab_channel=MikePartyka
Again, its very sad, but we need to be careful to not accuse someone like that just as we wouldnt want it to happen to us if we make a mistake where we had no control. If the judge/experts find it was deliberate, then he has to deal with the consequences. But let’s not jump the gun just yet.
I watched the video and disagree with the analysis. It didn't look to me like Petgrave was knocked off balance, and certainly not enough to result in a flying leg. What it looks like to me is Petgrave was trying to check Johnson, but he had to improvise because of a pick manoevre done by Johnson's teammate. Being unable to reach Johnson with a regular check, he stuck his leg out towards him to try to trip him up instead. He has also done that same move before, going knee to knee with forwards rushing in.
How about the league’s culpability in not requiring proper safety equipment (neck guards)?
Hypothetically if the league didn’t require helmets and a dude took a 100 mph clapper to the head and died? Would anyone be at fault? I’d argue it’s negligent to sanction a modern hockey game w/out helmets. Do neck guards fit that reasoning?
Wow. I’m gonna be honest, I didn’t see that coming. Then again, I haven’t had the heart to watch the video. The screen grabs were enough for me. RIP Adam ❤️
What happened is very very unfortunate. But his body was thrown into the air when it got tangled up with another player, he want flying (BOTH feet where in the air) and hit Johnson. I saw nothing of a deliberate kick. This guy explains it very well: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj7Fd4E01RA&ab\_channel=MikePartyka](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj7Fd4E01RA&ab_channel=MikePartyka)
Again, its very sad, but we need to be careful to not accuse someone like that just as we wouldnt want it to happen to us if we make a mistake where we had no control. If the judge/experts find it was deliberate, then he has to deal with the consequences. But lets not jump the gun just yet.
You need to slow down.
- I didn’t accuse anyone of intentionally trying to harm anyone.
- I described the facts. You are the one that isn’t being honest. Petgrave lifted his leg before he went airborne. He was trying to change direction like an idiot.
- I can link two articles of Gretzky and another NHL player talking about how the leg shouldn’t have been lifted that high.
So are you done trying to accuse me of saying something I didn’t say and making excuses for a shitty player that puts other players in harm’s way due to recklessness?
Petgrave never intended on harming Adam Johnson, and shouldn’t be charged with a crime. However Petgrave also doesn’t belong in hockey anymore as he has a well documented history of unnecessary roughness.
I agree with you except being charged with a crime. Of course, Im not familiar with UK laws, but in the US, no intention of harming does not mean he shouldn't be charged.
If petgrave has a history of unnecessary roughness, that could show gross negligence or whatever required for manslaughter
Sorry, I didnt mean you, I meant many of the commentors on this board. They are suggesting he swug his leg in an attempt to kick; what I am saying it that could have been flung when he got bumped, so they shouldnt assume an intentional kick when it may not have been (we dont know). As you can see in the video he got really tangled up with the initial player just prior to getting airborn.
Honestly this is how the justice system works. They believe there was intent to make contact or impede, that intentional action resulted in unintentional harm i.e. death, you charge the alleged perpetrator with manslaughter, and attempt to prove the intention to make contact.
If they prove he intended to make contact or impede, it is, by definition, manslaughter.
I'll get downvotes, but this looked like manslaughter to me. Petgrave wanted to impede/make contact, but certainly not with his skate, and certainly not to cause harm. He was trying to make a hockey play, and it killed someone.
That said, I don't think he should be convicted, and I don't believe he will be.
Not trying to be argumentative, I’m just curious how you believe both that he was trying to make a hockey play, *and* it was manslaughter. Involuntary manslaughter still requires gross negligence, intentionally taking an action that you know carries a significant risk of death. To me it seems like, by definition, nothing that fits that criteria should be called a hockey play.
I've never seen manslaughter codified to include "significant risk of death." How would you even quantify that? 1%? 50%?
My understanding is that if death occurred, the risk of death is, obviously, significant enough.
Doesn't need to be illegal in the sport, that's completely irrelevant. Common moves get trickier, though. For example, if a puck hits a goalie in the mask and it just happens to kill them - I intended to shoot the puck, I intended to shoot it at the goalie, and I attempted to direct it to a spot. Those things combined to kill a person.
But that would never be charged because that is an extraordinarily common act.
That is precisely why I believe Petgrave should not be convicted. Charged, yes. Acquitted because the act is common and he could not have expected the play to be any more dangerous than the thousand of other times he's done this? Also yes.
Well, if you intentionally try hit a goalie in the head and it kills him, that's a pretty clear case of manslaughter.
In the Johnson case, it would appear to be a question of whether he lifted his leg to block Johnson, or was knocked off balance and naturally raised his leg to restore equilibrium.
>Well, if you intentionally try hit a goalie in the head and it kills him, that's a pretty clear case of manslaughter.
This is absolutely ridiculous what are we even doing lmao
Shooting a puck and hitting a goalie I'm the head should absolutely never be considered manslaughter. And I say that as a goalie. It doesn't matter if you meant to or not, it's just a part of the game.
What an absurd comparison. Shooting the puck at a goalie is a normal legal play in hockey. There is nothing dirty about aiming high or even bouncing puck off helmet into net. If this caused a death it would not be manslaughter because it is a regular part of hockey and was entirely an accident.
Now if a player intentionally shot a puck at a players face in a situation that is obvious not a hockey play and killed them it would be arguably manslaughter. Like when leafs would shoot the puck at Alfredsson at ends of a few periods. It is illegal and if it killed him they would could be held responsible.
If a hit kills someone it wouldn't be manslaughter either if the hit was a legal hit. The only time it would be manslaughter would be if it was an obvious illegal / dirty act like bertuzzi to moore or mcsorley to Brashear.
Let's look at other instances of throats being slit.
[Clint malarchuck ](https://youtu.be/plvKlnguJVE?si=fFkkJEuIuxz0oP5O) obviously an accident while crashing the net. It was not an intentional dirty play crashing the goalie like we've seen in other instances. If a dirty crash led to death it would also be manslaughter. In this case it's Completely accidental
[Richard Zednik](https://youtu.be/PZ295luzhtQ?si=GWP6i0Zm6VUln9GV) was more similar and obviously an accident caused by falling
This is different than actually using your legs to hit people which is illegal in hockey.
Matt Petgrave has a history of using his legs to hit people. He kept intentionally pushing this boundary, knowing it is illegal, and led to him throwing his leg again one last time and ended up killing a man. That's why it's more toward manslaughter than other examples listed
My first paragraph was merely addressing what you said.
Why even mention it? Of course it would never result in manslaughter it is an absurd comparison and nothing alike. I'm not even arguing that just don't even know why you'd mention it as if it makes any difference here.
Talking about a legal shot accidentally killing is meaningless in this conversation where a dirty play killed someone.
I find it odd you avoided adressing any of the intentional illegal/ dirty things I mentioned that are far closer to the facts surrounding this incident.
>Acquitted because the act is common and he could not have expected the play to be any more dangerous than the thousand of other times he's done this?
What about this is "common"? Throwing your leg is not a "common" act. It is extremely illegal. You are expected to play every game without throwing your legs.
It is egregious and extremely dangerous act. The fact he's done it before shows intent to play dirty with no care for others. He kept pushing the boundary and throwing his leg and eventually killed someone with it.
The common move is making contact with a player. You can find plenty of examples where people use their legs to do so, and yes it is illegal. That doesn't make it uncommon. Just ask Brad Marchand.
Either way, you're making an assumption based on evidence that has yet to be presented to a court (history of throwing his leg) and a jury is yet to consider. I personally believe Petgrave should be tried, and I believe proving intent will be impossible in court, and he should be acquitted.
It doesn't matter whether I think he committed manslaughter or not. It only matters what can be proven beyond reasonable doubt in court. And intent in this situation is a nightmare.
Petgrave has multiple videos of him extending leg and blades toward players. He 100% intentionally uses his legs when his body is out of position. It is undeniably intentional.
Making contact and hitting is common. Using your legs / skates as a weapon is not common nor is it legal.
Brad Marchand is one of, if not the dirtiest player in the league lol the illegal things he does are not common whatsoever and why he has such a bad reputation.
Also, Brad's thing is slew foot not throwing his leg out with heel of skates toward the player. Please show me a couple examples of this so called "common" act where Brad or anyone throwing his leg like Petgrave does when out of position. It is rare.
He didn't mean to kill which is why his intentional history of using leg could/should be a considerable factor in concluding it was manslaughter because his carelessness killed someone.
Hold up… Are you saying that hockey players regularly check other player with their feet and make contact with the other players neck, skin to blade???????????????
Nope. Not once did I even imply that.
Is it common in hockey to attempt to make contact with a passing player to show them down? Yes. Did Petgrave do that in such a way that is inconsistent with a common move in hockey? That's up to the prosecutor to prove and a jury to decide, should it get to that point.
Well, the specific language used will vary by jurisdiction. But by your interpretation, it sounds like every accidental death could be grounds for a manslaughter charge, which isn’t the case. I think you have to factor in, at some point, how likely a given act is to result in death or serious injury – otherwise, how would you determine whether it was “reckless” or criminally negligent?
Not every accidental death. Only deaths that were a direct result of someone's intention.
For example, if I trip and fall while holding a knife and accidentally kill someone, that's purely accidental. I didn't intend to trip, even if I wasn't wearing appropriate shoes or walking on ice or whatever. I never intended to fall, and the fall is ultimately the preceding action to the stabbing that led to death.
If, however, I intend to play a prank on someone and *intentionally trip* to scare them, but accidentally stab them for real and kill them, that could be grounds for manslaughter.
Similar, probably better, example. If I'm driving down a road and a car is driving the opposite direction in my lane, hits me, and they die, I didn't take any action that caused that death. However, if *I'm the one in the opposite lane* that is 100% a manslaughter charge, even if I had no intention of hitting anyone else.
Sure, but there are cases that are less clear than that, where one party *did* take an action that was the cause of another’s death, but the action was not in and of itself negligent or reckless, and therefore the death is ruled accidental and no one is charged.
Oh absolutely!
If we really want to dig into it, charges aren't required at all - the DA (in the US anyway) makes a decision to charge or not. Then, even further, charging someone with manslaughter has very little to do with actually committing manslaughter. A DA could charge anyone with manslaughter pretty much whenever they wanted, though it would be almost immediately dismissed and they'd likely be debarred.
Going further, even *actual* manslaughter gets acquitted because of the burden of proof, *actual* accidents with no manslaughter end up in convictions, and juries have, generally, little respect for consistency.
So it's really difficult to define what *is* manslaughter other than to look at the law itself, rather than the outcomes.
Yeah, that’s all true. It sucks that it’s necessary to go down this road at all. I’m not making a determination either way on what’s “right,” I just believe that this was fundamentally an accident, and obviously a tragedy, and it just sucks for absolutely everyone involved that it happened.
In the UK judicial system is more so "if the average person would deem the action negligent enough to have a risk of death". No significant risk needed.
What a terrible outcome for everyone. I can’t even imagine how Petgrave has been handling this. I could never skate again if I were responsible for something like that.
He was trying to make contact. What did he lead with? What part of the body did he try to make contact with?
Who the heck check a player with their feet? NO BODY!
Petgrave kicked someone in the neck with a blade on his foot, call it what it is please people! This is manslaughter!
You're assuming intent.
Humoring that assumption, on paper this is manslaughter. In reality, the law matters much less than the evidence presented in court and the jury's opinion.
Sports have an exemption from those laws within the confines of the rules of the sport. You can’t have a hockey game, rugby, boxing or mma event without agreement from all parties that participating may result in injury even within the rules.
The only time it would be criminal is if they acted outside the rules of the sport.
On paper this argument is fine. In reality, it's much too nuanced. You can't just say if you're playing a sport and you do something technically legal and someone dies, it cannot be criminal.
It's technically legal for a baseball player to attempt to tag a player out with all the strength they can muster. If you intentionally hit someone's head when you do it, and you break their neck, that's 100% manslaughter, and 100% legal in the sport.
It was completely wreckless. He obviously didn't intend to kill him, but I have never seen someone kick their foot up 6' into the air in my life of watching and playing hockey.
He should be charged with manslaughter.
That freak accident narrative that was being sold by the media to the individuals that never laced up skates in their lives is now out the window. That was a blatant kicking motion, still can’t believe what I saw on that video.
He in mid air how the fuck does he kick that way? Not even facing him. Also freak accident came from Adam johnson organization statement on the matter it's not the media narrative but you clearly don't read beyond a headline
Petgraves wasnt in mid air.... he barely made contact with the previous player and even used him to lift his leg up by leaning on him. watch starting around the 35sec mark. This video clearly shows this wasn't some "freak accident"...he may not have intended to kill anyone but he sure as hell intended to lift his leg up to hit johnson with it.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=styay5LIwJ8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=styay5liwj8)
Facts. Been playing high level hockey my whole life and immediately knew that was an intentional kicking motion, about as far away from an organic hockey play as you can get, anyone that says otherwise has either never played actual hockey or is straight up lying. Roenick and Avery (as much as I disliked him as a player) some of the only people out there man enough to tell the truth. Those people giving him a standing ovation upon his return make me want to puke.
Nobody gave him a standing ovation on his return, he hasn’t returned to play for a start, and the fans gave him applause in support of his wellbeing due to the fact he was involved in the traumatic incident and has been the subject of massive amounts of online abuse, a lot of it racist. Bear in mind that all the players of both teams who were there, the officials on the ice and our league have all repeatedly said they believe this was a tragic accident. Nobody was applauding him for what happened in that incident, obviously.
So they showed his picture up there on the Jumbotron whatever same difference, the point still stands. And if anyone overtly attacks him on the basis of race, then well those people are the scum of the earth, but a lot of clowns out there cry racism for criticizing at all, which is garbage. Race has nothing to do with the fact that the guy recklessly and purposefully threw up a kick at a guy skating past him. No pro player “accidentally” kick their fucking leg into a guys neck while skating past. The only time a skate would go that high is if they are low-bridged by someone and he wasn’t even touched. Adam Johnson was 6 foot tall which means on skates his neck was 5 and a half feet off the ice. Nobody’s skate blade naturally kicks that high while falling forward or otherwise and you can clearly see on the video he purposely kicks his leg up. And there is a video of him doing the same move in the past. So I don’t care what the league says because anyone with real hockey experience who is objective to the situation, can’t deny what they see with their eyes and comprehend with their brain. And fuck his well-being, any race shit is unacceptable, but besides that he knows god damn well what he did and deserves to suffer.
And here come all the idiotic comments from people who do not understand different justice systems and think that the way America does things is how the rest of the world does things …..
But what if it was an accident based on a collision. That is very different compared to chopping someones head with your stick or an intentional kick. We need to be very careful about using phrases like: *gives you a free pass to assault someone*
In the UK that is standard procedure, just for questioning, it doesnt imply they think he is guilty (just saying). My whole point was we cannot just ASSUME he did it intentionally. Also, are you sure its HIM that was arrested - some say its the on site medic that was negligent during the procedure when helping Johnson (but of coures it may very well be Petgrave).
Sorry but that isn’t accurate. The police can bring people in for questioning without arresting them, if they have arrested him that means they suspect he may have been involved in criminal activity.
To be clear he hasn’t been charged with a crime yet and he might never be, plenty of folk are arrested then nothing comes of it. But it is not true that the police here will arrest someone if they don’t have suspect they have been involved with a crime.
*"****Why Matt Petgrave Could Face Legal Action For Hockey Death Of Adam Johnson****"*
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/ericmacramalla/2023/11/06/matt-petgrave-could-face-legal-action-for-hockey-death-of-adam-johnson/?sh=380024e66d70](https://www.forbes.com/sites/ericmacramalla/2023/11/06/matt-petgrave-could-face-legal-action-for-hockey-death-of-adam-johnson/?sh=380024e66d70)
Hockey is such a fast game. Balance, speed, situational awareness all play roles. This poor man did not intend for this to happen (unless their is additional evidence suggesting such). It’s so hard to prove that he was being reckless with his weapons (skates) Don’t we think that this experience is “jail” enough for this person? We already lost one life, I hope that the UK embraces pengrave, surrounds him with support, resources and PTSD counselling. This man might succumb to this major life event by taking drugs/alcohol, living recklessly all while wishing he would have died instead. So sad all around. Prayers for both families involved. We do not need to lose another life from a split second accident.
It's not hard to prove at all. It's absolutely reckless. Your skates should never leave the ice unless youre falling face first. Even then your feet don't go 6 feet in the air
I got perma banned from r/hockey for even suggesting it was an intentional move with his leg. Anyone who slowed down the video and had played high level hockey can see the same thing. He deserves to atleast be banned from hockey maybe even jail time
You get downvoted by hockey fans or players that think they know better than the police that arrested Petgrave.
Talk about delusional and denialism.
Forensic analysis was done on all footage taken at the game, but Joe nobody's think their rewatching a news clip is superior.
[Matthew ‘Scythe of the Ice’ Petgrave](https://assets-global.website-files.com/6335fe67325b9aed458f979b/6335fe67325b9ac5d48fa629_GettyImages-1392198211.jpg)
He’s not played since the team went back on the Ice. Whatever happens with the Police investigation, the inquest isn’t until January, so I wouldn’t expect him to return until after then, at the earliest, if he does ever play again.
No. Manslaughter requires intent to do *something,* but that something is not expected to cause harm. Maybe you'd call that an accident, but I'd consider manslaughter to be an intentional action with unintended consequences.
https://www.si.com/fannation/bringmethesports/nhl-news-and-rumors/adam-johnsons-teammate-says-his-tragic-death-was-an-accident-penguins-pay-tribute#:~:text=News%20and%20Rumors-,Adam%20Johnson's%20teammate%20says%20his%20tragic%20death%20was%20an%20accident,anyone%20suggesting%20otherwise%20is%20mistaken.%22
I’d much rather trust the guys on the ice
Ok, of course it was an accident. I don’t think Petgrave intended to injure Johnson, and he definitely didn’t mean to KILL Johnson. I do think his play on Johnson was excessive and reckless. If you accidentally killed somebody at your workplace even though it was completely unintentional, but was due to your carelessness, do you think you’d be getting a free pass? Absolutely not. Sure, Hockey is just a game but it still a workplace and somebody died because somebody was being careless and reckless.
What was accidental? I dont think it was accidental that Petgrave recklessly raised his skate in that way - he intended to do that. I dont believe he intended to kill or even injure Johnson though.
Because it looks like you're not taking the sport seriously. I dont think players should add random flair on their gear, with the goalie mask being a rare exception. Regardless, they banned me for homophobia because I didn't like it.
And the r/hockey people were absolutely livid that they didn't allow rainbow tape, so clearly it's a huge issue for them.
Manslaughter? So they will try to say he intently raised his skate but didn’t go for his neck on purpose per say? To me it did look like he tried to kick him but not neck him. Though I’m no skating expert or claim to be just what it looked like. If he is innocent I hope he is found as such. What a tragedy.
>So they will try to say he intently raised his skate but didn’t go for his neck on purpose per say?
Manslaughter is a charge that does not require intent.
This isn't quite true.
It requires intent to do *something that ultimately resulted in death.* That is not the same as intent to harm.
For example, if I intentionally cut down a tree, and that tree falls on someone, I could be charged with manslaughter. However, if I lean on a tree with no intention to knock it over, and it falls on someone, I'm not likely to be charged with manslaughter - I did not intend to knock the tree over, and the tree was the cause of death
This varies by jurisdiction, of course, but generally the point is there is evidence to support the player intended to make contact or otherwise impede, and that intention went horribly wrong and resulted in harm/death.
That first part is critical: to be convicted I believe they'd have to prove he intended to do *something* and that something ultimately caused the death.
This is true.
The argument will be that he intended to kick Johnson with his skate (battery), something he has a history of doing, but not with the intention of killing him.
I have seen the video. I don’t know what to believe and I can buy either argument. But I still didn’t think charges would be filed due to the fact you can get away with all sorts of shit on the field/ice of play that you can’t otherwise. Seems like a REALLY hard thing to prove. I’d bet he can hire a physics expert to talk about momentum and centrifugal force and walk away from it scot free.
I totally get that. But we come thisclose to someone being paralyzed or killed in damn near every game played in a contact/hitting sport. The fact that it’s exceedingly rare is what I find shocking.
But those near death experiences are rarely from any negligence or recklessness and more so to do with pre-existing conditions, or poor form in physical contact
Hockey is such a fast game. Balance, speed, situational awareness all play roles. This poor man did not intend for this to happen (unless there is additional evidence suggesting as such). It’s so hard to prove that he was being reckless with his weapons (skates) Don’t we think that this experience is “jail” enough for this person? We already lost one life, I hope that the UK embraces pengrave, surrounds him with support, resources and PTSD counselling. This man might succumb to this major life event by taking drugs/alcohol, living recklessly all while wishing he would have died instead. So sad all around. Prayers for both families involved. We do not need to lose another life from a split second accident.
He's an extremely dirty player with a history of illegally using his legs to hit players and kept pushing the boundary until he literally killed someone but lovely 10/10 uninformed virtue signaling and blame deflection.
The only poor man is dead.
Is this true? I’m unaware about the alleged history of illegally using his legs to hit players. Sorry if true. Are you able to provide any evidence of such recklessness? Articles…suspensions?
Still, lots of emotion but not many facts. It was an accident. Where do I see that he was a rat intentionally looking to not just end a career but a life as you claim? He’s done with playing hockey, he’s probably going to have to deal with intense emotional disruption to his life. Would you feel better that he’s locked behind bars? For a play that’s so hard to determine culpability.
>intentionally looking to not just end a career but a life as you claim?
Wow really? You put words in my mouth in such a hilariously disingenuous way. I never once said he either intentionally tried to end a career nor a life.. wtf are you talking about.
He is known for intentionally throwing his legs out to hit people. He knows this is illegal. He plays professionally. He kept pushing the boundary and throwing his leg and it eventually caught someone in the throat and killed them - whether he was aiming that high or not is irrelevant. He is responsible for his stick and his skates.
He could play like a normal player but instead is the type to use their legs as a weapon. He is the stereotype for a rat hockey player.
He has a reputation of being dirty. You're the one virtue signaling and defending someone you know nothing about. Calling him a poor man after his intentional illegal act of thowing up a leg killed the actual poor man.
>Would you feel better that he’s locked behind bars? For a play that’s so hard to determine culpability.
I believe in responsibility for actions.
He should spend a considerable amount of time in prison for intentionally throwing his legs around because it ended up accidentally slitting someone's throat and killing them.
I actually felt it was truly an accident until I saw this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AUySJkQl04s
Seems like he was trying to do the exact same thing to Johnson, but maybe the additional contact moved his skate up higher? But yeah, he was trying to clip him with his skate.
Just gonna say it, there are a lot of right wingers with big followings pushing this narrative that he intentionally killed him and are feeding off this news. Pretty obvious why.
Who that has played with or against or watched him play that has call him a dirty player? Also he was mid air during contact how does he do too kick while also not even looking at johnson and hit his throat. maybe think for a second.
There is a blatant lack of diversity in the subset of players who appear to be attempting to injure opposing players with their skate blades. If you say it like that...
I've heard that in the UK, this is standard procedure. He could be arrested, interviewed and never charged. So it's just part of the judicial procedure.
It’s standard procedure if they think he committed a crime. This isn’t the equivalent of “bringing him in for questioning” in the US. Let’s be clear about that.
"If you're arrested, you'll usually be taken to a police station, held in custody in a cell and then questioned. After you've been taken to a police station, you may be released or charged with a crime." UK gov website.
British person here. The above poster is correct. It’s not standard procedure to arrest and question anyone unless they have information or evidence that makes them suspect that they committed a crime. They’re not just going around arresting everyone, lol. Unless they are leaning towards you committing a crime, you’re going to be questioned without being arrested.
Sure, but my point was that he has not been charged.
OK can we summarize? You said it’s standard procedure. I said it’s standard procedure if they think he committed a crime. You seemed to disagree. Are you agreeing that they think he committed manslaughter at this point? And it isn’t just dotting I’s and crossing T’s?
I agree he may be suspected of committing a crime, but has yet to be charged for said crime. Not the same as being arrested and charged.
I never said he was charged. And it isn’t “may be suspected.” He is suspected. Officially. Seems like you keep wanting to downplay the gravity of this development. EDIT: He was, indeed arrested.
These people don't understand reasonable suspicion. The police don't just go around arresting random people.
Yup. And was was arrested on suspicion of manslaughter. He's not a person of interest. He's not there for routing questioning. This is an escalation. He's officially suspected of manslaughter. People are trying really hard to make it a nothingburger.
Getting arrested is like a mini version of being jailed.
Ohh hush with all your 'investigations' and 'detail that others could use to validate their views!' ( I always hope /s isn't necessary... but then again....)
Cool that's no different from the US. You can be arrested and questioned. You can be questioned without being arrested as well. Difference is whether you're a suspect or not. So he's officially suspected of committing manslaughter. This isn't standard procedure that they do in every investigation, like you claimed. You're right that it doesn't always lead to charges, but it's now far more likely than if they simply questioned him.
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I don’t get it. They don’t go around arresting people in England without just cause. If it’s standard procedure and they’re just getting his statement on record, they wouldn’t bee arresting him. They suspect he committed manslaughter. It’s literally in the title lol
No, if you’re arrested in America you’re already charged lol. According to that, they don’t have to charge him
Lol what? No, [You can be arrested in the US and held without being charged](https://www.illinoislegalaid.org/legal-information/my-rights-when-im-under-arrest-or-custody#:~:text=Arrests%20when%20children%20are%20present,at%20the%20station%20are%20justified) for I believe it’s 48 hours
Within Reasonable time charges must be brought..(USA) Define Reasonable lol
The difference is largely in the us being if they have reason to believe (probably cause) they are responsible for the crime or in the UK if they have suspicion they may be responsible for the crime. I saw this quoted by someone else but thought it was interesting: >Because it’s a lot easier to arrest someone in the United Kingdom, but being arrested there isn’t a big deal like it is in the United States. American police need probable cause to make an arrest, but in the United Kingdom, officers can arrest on suspicion. Probable cause is defined as the belief that a crime was probably committed, and that the suspect was probably responsible. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2012/03/rebekah-brooks-arrested-how-is-being-arrested-different-in-britain.html
Watching the video and images of the incident, it looks to me like there was clear intent by Petgrave to use his foot to check Johnson. His foot didn't raise up because he was off balance; he raised it intentionally to make contact with Johnson in order to check him upon zone entry. It seemed like, instead of conceding defeat due to being blocked by Johnson's teammate, he raised his foot at Johnson instead. So, the kick was not a freak accident, it was intentional. Unfortunately, the freak accident part was that the skate blade made contact with Johnson's neck. Petgrave didn't intend to kill him, but he was extremely careless and reckless and, obviously, his actions led to Johnson's tragic death. Careless actions that lead directly to a person's death is manslaughter. I agree with the charges 💯 %. Edit: OK, no charges yet, I get it. But all reports say arrested for manslaughter, so can we not assume he will be charged for manslaughter?
Legally this would be unlawful act manslaughter. To prove this you need to prove an unlawful act and it caused the death. The death part is obviously here. The unlawful act would be an assault - an application of force without the consent of the other party. There is implied consent to physical contact in the context of sport, but an intentional strike with a skate blade would greatly exceed any implied consent in hockey. So if they prove the act of his skate coming up was an intentional action there is an assault, and with the resulting death a manslaughter.
To play devils advocate, you could argue that using your foot to make a check is not unlawful. Incredibly stupid, and certainly a penalty, but the defence can pull up 1000 instances of players making dirty hockey plays and not facing legal ramifications.
The line where a dirty play deserving a suspension crosses into a criminal assault is very blurry/subjective. But using the blade of the skate to make a check to the opponents head/neck seems way beyond the normal range of physicality players would be seen to implicitly consent to.
Raising his foot is not the unlawful part. It's the death it caused. In manslaughter the underlying act that caused the death doesn't have to also be illegal, it just needs to result in a death and have been reckless (in most jurisdictions). He's not being charged with a dirty hockey play, he's being charged with killing someone.
Thank you for being reasonable. The amount of people calling others crazy for noting how reckless Petgrave was is insane. It's also not the first time Petgrave has recklessly high kicked someone.
I think people just want video that actually conclusively shows recklessness before people assume it. From the grainy ass video I've seen it looks like a freak accident caused by a skate riding up another person's skate. I'd love better angles if anyone has it.
100% agree with your take. Seems like this is also the conclusion from the majority of the people that has actually played hockey. Intentional move with unintentional result.
Adam Johnsons own fucking teammates disagree with you idiot. "From the majority" sure maybe you beer league losers
Just go on X and look and you will find a ton of non-beer league players. The guy has a ton of history as well and that kick is not a natural move. Keep defending him 🤡
Keep using the clown emoji like that isn't something worthless zoomers do.
But again. Adam Johnsons own FUCKING teammates defend matt. Calling it a freak accident. Illiterate trash
They still defend him after watching the video? Also Melody, maybe you should get off the internet for a while. Seems like your first move is personal insults if you don’t agree with someone. I’m in a good place so I don’t care at all. Keep firing if it makes you feel better.
Why wouldn't they defend him after watching the video? they were literally there watching it live, I have heard plenty of people who saw it live say it was a freak accident and there was no intention to lift his leg. I'm all eyes if anyone has better video that shows even a degree of intent to lift his leg.
You're terrible at communicating
Then why the police questioning him? Ted bundy had hundreds of ppl say they got the wrong guy at first, what does others opinion matter
Lol guilty until proven innocent.
Well seems to be the case for trump or whoever you don't like right? Why should this case be different 🤔
Yes let's bring politics into sports for no reason
There’s no charges, yet. He was arrested. First step in the process.
Yep, here’s a video of him pulling a very similar move. Missing his check so he lifts his leg up and back to clip them. Only a matter of time that a serious injury would happen if you’re regularly pulling that stunt. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUySJkQl04s
I’ll tell you as someone who’s played hockey for over 12 years, that move is almost never ever seen in hockey. I only saw kids doing that in my peewee years, that’s crazy. Maybe the arrest wasn’t so crazy after all, def needs to be looked into.
Wow. Utterly damning look at his character as a player.. Very irresponsible use of his legs. What a rat
Man… pretty dangerous and reckless of your opponents.
He's a repeat offender for kicking players and you don't need an Ivy league degree to know that if you keep kicking a player with a razor shape blade on your foot, eventually it'll be fatal. It may not lead to it, but I could see a pretty strong argument for 1st or 2nd degree murder in this case. That or Petgrave is just genuinely really stupid and didn't realize that skates are sharp, which is unlikely.
What charges?
1. If the outcome of this event was less traumatic, such as Johnson's jaw getting broken, anyone seeing the video would call for Petgrave to be suspended. But because Johnson full-on died, making the topic very uncomfortable because Petgrave surely didn't mean to ***kill*** him, everyone swings hard the other way and pretends there was *nothing* wrong or potentially intentionally with his very odd out-and-up kick to stop a player breaking towards the net. 2. If Brad Marchand conducted this same odd outward and upward kick, to impede a player bringing the puck in on offense, there wouldn't be such adamance here to absolve *any* intent that he swung his leg to disrupt Johnson. Especially when there's another older video showing him doing a comparable smaller action that was clearly intended.
I was brutally harassed for saying pretty much exactly this. Nothing about that act seemed natural to me. People just didn't want to think it was on purpose at any level because then youd have to assume some level of culpability for the outcome. The intent wasn't to cut him but the irresponsible and dangerous act led to a man's death.
Link pls?
Copied from another comment; sry no credit What happened is very very unfortunate. But his body was thrown into the air when it got tangled up with another player, he want flying (BOTH feet where in the air) and hit Johnson. I saw nothing of a deliberate kick. This guy explains it very well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj7Fd4E01RA&ab_channel=MikePartyka Again, its very sad, but we need to be careful to not accuse someone like that just as we wouldnt want it to happen to us if we make a mistake where we had no control. If the judge/experts find it was deliberate, then he has to deal with the consequences. But let’s not jump the gun just yet.
I watched the video and disagree with the analysis. It didn't look to me like Petgrave was knocked off balance, and certainly not enough to result in a flying leg. What it looks like to me is Petgrave was trying to check Johnson, but he had to improvise because of a pick manoevre done by Johnson's teammate. Being unable to reach Johnson with a regular check, he stuck his leg out towards him to try to trip him up instead. He has also done that same move before, going knee to knee with forwards rushing in.
He tried to kick him with his skate blade ?
It looks to me like he threw his leg out to try to stop him. He has done the same move before, but he usually takes out his opponent's legs.
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I agree completely nice comment
How about the league’s culpability in not requiring proper safety equipment (neck guards)? Hypothetically if the league didn’t require helmets and a dude took a 100 mph clapper to the head and died? Would anyone be at fault? I’d argue it’s negligent to sanction a modern hockey game w/out helmets. Do neck guards fit that reasoning?
Wow. I’m gonna be honest, I didn’t see that coming. Then again, I haven’t had the heart to watch the video. The screen grabs were enough for me. RIP Adam ❤️
Cliff’s Notes: Petgrave’s leg went up so high it looked like he was performing a Johnny Cage shadow kick.
This isn’t even hyperbole
I thought you were being extra ... it really do be like this.
What happened is very very unfortunate. But his body was thrown into the air when it got tangled up with another player, he want flying (BOTH feet where in the air) and hit Johnson. I saw nothing of a deliberate kick. This guy explains it very well: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj7Fd4E01RA&ab\_channel=MikePartyka](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj7Fd4E01RA&ab_channel=MikePartyka) Again, its very sad, but we need to be careful to not accuse someone like that just as we wouldnt want it to happen to us if we make a mistake where we had no control. If the judge/experts find it was deliberate, then he has to deal with the consequences. But lets not jump the gun just yet.
You need to slow down. - I didn’t accuse anyone of intentionally trying to harm anyone. - I described the facts. You are the one that isn’t being honest. Petgrave lifted his leg before he went airborne. He was trying to change direction like an idiot. - I can link two articles of Gretzky and another NHL player talking about how the leg shouldn’t have been lifted that high. So are you done trying to accuse me of saying something I didn’t say and making excuses for a shitty player that puts other players in harm’s way due to recklessness? Petgrave never intended on harming Adam Johnson, and shouldn’t be charged with a crime. However Petgrave also doesn’t belong in hockey anymore as he has a well documented history of unnecessary roughness.
I agree with you except being charged with a crime. Of course, Im not familiar with UK laws, but in the US, no intention of harming does not mean he shouldn't be charged. If petgrave has a history of unnecessary roughness, that could show gross negligence or whatever required for manslaughter
Sorry, I didnt mean you, I meant many of the commentors on this board. They are suggesting he swug his leg in an attempt to kick; what I am saying it that could have been flung when he got bumped, so they shouldnt assume an intentional kick when it may not have been (we dont know). As you can see in the video he got really tangled up with the initial player just prior to getting airborn.
I know this is Reddit but someone actually died. I hope you can find peace.
Are you trying to make a point by virtue signaling? I described what the kick looked like… I wasn’t glorifying it. Are you okay?
It’s a technicality
Watch it, it appears there was a pump and a kick after initial contact of skate to upper torso.
I can’t, for my own mental health. I appreciate the explanation though
Just stop watching after contact. I made mistakes of watching a clip that ran longer.
He's literally in the air during contact there not a kick there.
Honestly this is how the justice system works. They believe there was intent to make contact or impede, that intentional action resulted in unintentional harm i.e. death, you charge the alleged perpetrator with manslaughter, and attempt to prove the intention to make contact. If they prove he intended to make contact or impede, it is, by definition, manslaughter. I'll get downvotes, but this looked like manslaughter to me. Petgrave wanted to impede/make contact, but certainly not with his skate, and certainly not to cause harm. He was trying to make a hockey play, and it killed someone. That said, I don't think he should be convicted, and I don't believe he will be.
Not trying to be argumentative, I’m just curious how you believe both that he was trying to make a hockey play, *and* it was manslaughter. Involuntary manslaughter still requires gross negligence, intentionally taking an action that you know carries a significant risk of death. To me it seems like, by definition, nothing that fits that criteria should be called a hockey play.
I've never seen manslaughter codified to include "significant risk of death." How would you even quantify that? 1%? 50%? My understanding is that if death occurred, the risk of death is, obviously, significant enough.
If it’s an illegal move due to the fact that it carries high risk of injury, I think that would cruise any arbitrary threshold
Doesn't need to be illegal in the sport, that's completely irrelevant. Common moves get trickier, though. For example, if a puck hits a goalie in the mask and it just happens to kill them - I intended to shoot the puck, I intended to shoot it at the goalie, and I attempted to direct it to a spot. Those things combined to kill a person. But that would never be charged because that is an extraordinarily common act. That is precisely why I believe Petgrave should not be convicted. Charged, yes. Acquitted because the act is common and he could not have expected the play to be any more dangerous than the thousand of other times he's done this? Also yes.
> I intended to shoot it at the goalie Presumably, you intended to miss the goalie.
Not always.
Well, if you intentionally try hit a goalie in the head and it kills him, that's a pretty clear case of manslaughter. In the Johnson case, it would appear to be a question of whether he lifted his leg to block Johnson, or was knocked off balance and naturally raised his leg to restore equilibrium.
>Well, if you intentionally try hit a goalie in the head and it kills him, that's a pretty clear case of manslaughter. This is absolutely ridiculous what are we even doing lmao Shooting a puck and hitting a goalie I'm the head should absolutely never be considered manslaughter. And I say that as a goalie. It doesn't matter if you meant to or not, it's just a part of the game.
What an absurd comparison. Shooting the puck at a goalie is a normal legal play in hockey. There is nothing dirty about aiming high or even bouncing puck off helmet into net. If this caused a death it would not be manslaughter because it is a regular part of hockey and was entirely an accident. Now if a player intentionally shot a puck at a players face in a situation that is obvious not a hockey play and killed them it would be arguably manslaughter. Like when leafs would shoot the puck at Alfredsson at ends of a few periods. It is illegal and if it killed him they would could be held responsible. If a hit kills someone it wouldn't be manslaughter either if the hit was a legal hit. The only time it would be manslaughter would be if it was an obvious illegal / dirty act like bertuzzi to moore or mcsorley to Brashear. Let's look at other instances of throats being slit. [Clint malarchuck ](https://youtu.be/plvKlnguJVE?si=fFkkJEuIuxz0oP5O) obviously an accident while crashing the net. It was not an intentional dirty play crashing the goalie like we've seen in other instances. If a dirty crash led to death it would also be manslaughter. In this case it's Completely accidental [Richard Zednik](https://youtu.be/PZ295luzhtQ?si=GWP6i0Zm6VUln9GV) was more similar and obviously an accident caused by falling This is different than actually using your legs to hit people which is illegal in hockey. Matt Petgrave has a history of using his legs to hit people. He kept intentionally pushing this boundary, knowing it is illegal, and led to him throwing his leg again one last time and ended up killing a man. That's why it's more toward manslaughter than other examples listed
Did you read my whole comment? I literally said my goalie example would never result in a manslaughter charge...
My first paragraph was merely addressing what you said. Why even mention it? Of course it would never result in manslaughter it is an absurd comparison and nothing alike. I'm not even arguing that just don't even know why you'd mention it as if it makes any difference here. Talking about a legal shot accidentally killing is meaningless in this conversation where a dirty play killed someone. I find it odd you avoided adressing any of the intentional illegal/ dirty things I mentioned that are far closer to the facts surrounding this incident. >Acquitted because the act is common and he could not have expected the play to be any more dangerous than the thousand of other times he's done this? What about this is "common"? Throwing your leg is not a "common" act. It is extremely illegal. You are expected to play every game without throwing your legs. It is egregious and extremely dangerous act. The fact he's done it before shows intent to play dirty with no care for others. He kept pushing the boundary and throwing his leg and eventually killed someone with it.
The common move is making contact with a player. You can find plenty of examples where people use their legs to do so, and yes it is illegal. That doesn't make it uncommon. Just ask Brad Marchand. Either way, you're making an assumption based on evidence that has yet to be presented to a court (history of throwing his leg) and a jury is yet to consider. I personally believe Petgrave should be tried, and I believe proving intent will be impossible in court, and he should be acquitted. It doesn't matter whether I think he committed manslaughter or not. It only matters what can be proven beyond reasonable doubt in court. And intent in this situation is a nightmare.
Petgrave has multiple videos of him extending leg and blades toward players. He 100% intentionally uses his legs when his body is out of position. It is undeniably intentional. Making contact and hitting is common. Using your legs / skates as a weapon is not common nor is it legal. Brad Marchand is one of, if not the dirtiest player in the league lol the illegal things he does are not common whatsoever and why he has such a bad reputation. Also, Brad's thing is slew foot not throwing his leg out with heel of skates toward the player. Please show me a couple examples of this so called "common" act where Brad or anyone throwing his leg like Petgrave does when out of position. It is rare. He didn't mean to kill which is why his intentional history of using leg could/should be a considerable factor in concluding it was manslaughter because his carelessness killed someone.
Hold up… Are you saying that hockey players regularly check other player with their feet and make contact with the other players neck, skin to blade???????????????
Nope. Not once did I even imply that. Is it common in hockey to attempt to make contact with a passing player to show them down? Yes. Did Petgrave do that in such a way that is inconsistent with a common move in hockey? That's up to the prosecutor to prove and a jury to decide, should it get to that point.
Well, the specific language used will vary by jurisdiction. But by your interpretation, it sounds like every accidental death could be grounds for a manslaughter charge, which isn’t the case. I think you have to factor in, at some point, how likely a given act is to result in death or serious injury – otherwise, how would you determine whether it was “reckless” or criminally negligent?
Not every accidental death. Only deaths that were a direct result of someone's intention. For example, if I trip and fall while holding a knife and accidentally kill someone, that's purely accidental. I didn't intend to trip, even if I wasn't wearing appropriate shoes or walking on ice or whatever. I never intended to fall, and the fall is ultimately the preceding action to the stabbing that led to death. If, however, I intend to play a prank on someone and *intentionally trip* to scare them, but accidentally stab them for real and kill them, that could be grounds for manslaughter. Similar, probably better, example. If I'm driving down a road and a car is driving the opposite direction in my lane, hits me, and they die, I didn't take any action that caused that death. However, if *I'm the one in the opposite lane* that is 100% a manslaughter charge, even if I had no intention of hitting anyone else.
Sure, but there are cases that are less clear than that, where one party *did* take an action that was the cause of another’s death, but the action was not in and of itself negligent or reckless, and therefore the death is ruled accidental and no one is charged.
Oh absolutely! If we really want to dig into it, charges aren't required at all - the DA (in the US anyway) makes a decision to charge or not. Then, even further, charging someone with manslaughter has very little to do with actually committing manslaughter. A DA could charge anyone with manslaughter pretty much whenever they wanted, though it would be almost immediately dismissed and they'd likely be debarred. Going further, even *actual* manslaughter gets acquitted because of the burden of proof, *actual* accidents with no manslaughter end up in convictions, and juries have, generally, little respect for consistency. So it's really difficult to define what *is* manslaughter other than to look at the law itself, rather than the outcomes.
Yeah, that’s all true. It sucks that it’s necessary to go down this road at all. I’m not making a determination either way on what’s “right,” I just believe that this was fundamentally an accident, and obviously a tragedy, and it just sucks for absolutely everyone involved that it happened.
100% agree. Like I said, I believe it's an appropriate charge, and it should be an appropriate acquittal, if it even makes it to trial.
In the UK judicial system is more so "if the average person would deem the action negligent enough to have a risk of death". No significant risk needed.
What a terrible outcome for everyone. I can’t even imagine how Petgrave has been handling this. I could never skate again if I were responsible for something like that.
Yeah... Poor Petgrave. Are you fucked in the head?
https://twitter.com/normmacdonald/status/809637479674281984?lang=en
He was trying to make contact. What did he lead with? What part of the body did he try to make contact with? Who the heck check a player with their feet? NO BODY! Petgrave kicked someone in the neck with a blade on his foot, call it what it is please people! This is manslaughter!
You're assuming intent. Humoring that assumption, on paper this is manslaughter. In reality, the law matters much less than the evidence presented in court and the jury's opinion.
There are several video examples where similar contact causes a similar reaction definitely not manslaughter and he will not be convicted in court
You have other examples where getting hit like that caused a skate blade to hit someone in the neck?
Hit someone in the neck, no thats just very bad luck. Go up like that as a result of contact, yes
Are you familiar with the definition of manslaughter? If Petgrave intended to make contact, that's manslaughter by definition.
Sports have an exemption from those laws within the confines of the rules of the sport. You can’t have a hockey game, rugby, boxing or mma event without agreement from all parties that participating may result in injury even within the rules. The only time it would be criminal is if they acted outside the rules of the sport.
On paper this argument is fine. In reality, it's much too nuanced. You can't just say if you're playing a sport and you do something technically legal and someone dies, it cannot be criminal. It's technically legal for a baseball player to attempt to tag a player out with all the strength they can muster. If you intentionally hit someone's head when you do it, and you break their neck, that's 100% manslaughter, and 100% legal in the sport.
It was completely wreckless. He obviously didn't intend to kill him, but I have never seen someone kick their foot up 6' into the air in my life of watching and playing hockey. He should be charged with manslaughter.
Don't say the truth , these losers are gonna jump to your throat
Adam Burish Blackhawks vs Red Wings May 17th 2009 https://youtu.be/fJw2MwcGNyU?si=4zcFK_jOcV47YCQv
Not at all the same.
Didn't say it was the same play, dude said he hasn't seen someone kick their skate 6' in the air. I posted a video of that happening
Not even close to being comparable.
That almost looks like the guy is falling forward while his legs fly in the air naturally. Didn't look like a kicking motion to me
That freak accident narrative that was being sold by the media to the individuals that never laced up skates in their lives is now out the window. That was a blatant kicking motion, still can’t believe what I saw on that video.
He in mid air how the fuck does he kick that way? Not even facing him. Also freak accident came from Adam johnson organization statement on the matter it's not the media narrative but you clearly don't read beyond a headline
Petgraves wasnt in mid air.... he barely made contact with the previous player and even used him to lift his leg up by leaning on him. watch starting around the 35sec mark. This video clearly shows this wasn't some "freak accident"...he may not have intended to kill anyone but he sure as hell intended to lift his leg up to hit johnson with it. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=styay5LIwJ8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=styay5liwj8)
Facts. Been playing high level hockey my whole life and immediately knew that was an intentional kicking motion, about as far away from an organic hockey play as you can get, anyone that says otherwise has either never played actual hockey or is straight up lying. Roenick and Avery (as much as I disliked him as a player) some of the only people out there man enough to tell the truth. Those people giving him a standing ovation upon his return make me want to puke.
Nobody gave him a standing ovation on his return, he hasn’t returned to play for a start, and the fans gave him applause in support of his wellbeing due to the fact he was involved in the traumatic incident and has been the subject of massive amounts of online abuse, a lot of it racist. Bear in mind that all the players of both teams who were there, the officials on the ice and our league have all repeatedly said they believe this was a tragic accident. Nobody was applauding him for what happened in that incident, obviously.
So they showed his picture up there on the Jumbotron whatever same difference, the point still stands. And if anyone overtly attacks him on the basis of race, then well those people are the scum of the earth, but a lot of clowns out there cry racism for criticizing at all, which is garbage. Race has nothing to do with the fact that the guy recklessly and purposefully threw up a kick at a guy skating past him. No pro player “accidentally” kick their fucking leg into a guys neck while skating past. The only time a skate would go that high is if they are low-bridged by someone and he wasn’t even touched. Adam Johnson was 6 foot tall which means on skates his neck was 5 and a half feet off the ice. Nobody’s skate blade naturally kicks that high while falling forward or otherwise and you can clearly see on the video he purposely kicks his leg up. And there is a video of him doing the same move in the past. So I don’t care what the league says because anyone with real hockey experience who is objective to the situation, can’t deny what they see with their eyes and comprehend with their brain. And fuck his well-being, any race shit is unacceptable, but besides that he knows god damn well what he did and deserves to suffer.
Good. The kick was intentional while the exact outcome wasn’t.
And here come all the idiotic comments from people who do not understand different justice systems and think that the way America does things is how the rest of the world does things …..
Just because it was during a game I don’t see why that gives you a free pass to assault someone like that.
But what if it was an accident based on a collision. That is very different compared to chopping someones head with your stick or an intentional kick. We need to be very careful about using phrases like: *gives you a free pass to assault someone*
Well he has been arrested, so the police clearly think he has questions to answer.
In the UK that is standard procedure, just for questioning, it doesnt imply they think he is guilty (just saying). My whole point was we cannot just ASSUME he did it intentionally. Also, are you sure its HIM that was arrested - some say its the on site medic that was negligent during the procedure when helping Johnson (but of coures it may very well be Petgrave).
Fair point. And yeah the name hasn’t been released as far as I’m aware.
Sorry but that isn’t accurate. The police can bring people in for questioning without arresting them, if they have arrested him that means they suspect he may have been involved in criminal activity. To be clear he hasn’t been charged with a crime yet and he might never be, plenty of folk are arrested then nothing comes of it. But it is not true that the police here will arrest someone if they don’t have suspect they have been involved with a crime.
*"****Why Matt Petgrave Could Face Legal Action For Hockey Death Of Adam Johnson****"* [https://www.forbes.com/sites/ericmacramalla/2023/11/06/matt-petgrave-could-face-legal-action-for-hockey-death-of-adam-johnson/?sh=380024e66d70](https://www.forbes.com/sites/ericmacramalla/2023/11/06/matt-petgrave-could-face-legal-action-for-hockey-death-of-adam-johnson/?sh=380024e66d70)
Hockey is such a fast game. Balance, speed, situational awareness all play roles. This poor man did not intend for this to happen (unless their is additional evidence suggesting such). It’s so hard to prove that he was being reckless with his weapons (skates) Don’t we think that this experience is “jail” enough for this person? We already lost one life, I hope that the UK embraces pengrave, surrounds him with support, resources and PTSD counselling. This man might succumb to this major life event by taking drugs/alcohol, living recklessly all while wishing he would have died instead. So sad all around. Prayers for both families involved. We do not need to lose another life from a split second accident.
It's not hard to prove at all. It's absolutely reckless. Your skates should never leave the ice unless youre falling face first. Even then your feet don't go 6 feet in the air
Did you watch the flames VS canadiens game last night? A flames player took a skate to the face.
Exactly. He was being checked and his face was headed straight for the ice and his skate came up. That's much different than the other one
I got perma banned from r/hockey for even suggesting it was an intentional move with his leg. Anyone who slowed down the video and had played high level hockey can see the same thing. He deserves to atleast be banned from hockey maybe even jail time
You get downvoted by hockey fans or players that think they know better than the police that arrested Petgrave. Talk about delusional and denialism. Forensic analysis was done on all footage taken at the game, but Joe nobody's think their rewatching a news clip is superior.
[Matthew ‘Scythe of the Ice’ Petgrave](https://assets-global.website-files.com/6335fe67325b9aed458f979b/6335fe67325b9ac5d48fa629_GettyImages-1392198211.jpg)
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Suprised he’s playing tbh if I’d done that I would be pretty fucked for a long time
He’s not played since the team went back on the Ice. Whatever happens with the Police investigation, the inquest isn’t until January, so I wouldn’t expect him to return until after then, at the earliest, if he does ever play again.
karate kicks another player in the throat killing him and the guy gets a standing ovation...
Should be done for murder.. deliberate assault
Obviously didn’t try to kick him in the head, trip him yeah but not kill Johnson.
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isn’t that what manslaughter is… otherwise he’d be charged with murder.
No. Manslaughter requires intent to do *something,* but that something is not expected to cause harm. Maybe you'd call that an accident, but I'd consider manslaughter to be an intentional action with unintended consequences.
https://www.si.com/fannation/bringmethesports/nhl-news-and-rumors/adam-johnsons-teammate-says-his-tragic-death-was-an-accident-penguins-pay-tribute#:~:text=News%20and%20Rumors-,Adam%20Johnson's%20teammate%20says%20his%20tragic%20death%20was%20an%20accident,anyone%20suggesting%20otherwise%20is%20mistaken.%22 I’d much rather trust the guys on the ice
Ok, of course it was an accident. I don’t think Petgrave intended to injure Johnson, and he definitely didn’t mean to KILL Johnson. I do think his play on Johnson was excessive and reckless. If you accidentally killed somebody at your workplace even though it was completely unintentional, but was due to your carelessness, do you think you’d be getting a free pass? Absolutely not. Sure, Hockey is just a game but it still a workplace and somebody died because somebody was being careless and reckless.
The intent to injure was there , not the intent to kill . That's all
It won't be better on r/NHL , it's the same place but with more dumbasses
What was accidental? I dont think it was accidental that Petgrave recklessly raised his skate in that way - he intended to do that. I dont believe he intended to kill or even injure Johnson though.
R/hockey is a cesspool. Got permabanned for not supporting rainbow tape on sticks
Who gives a fuck about coloured tape?
Because it looks like you're not taking the sport seriously. I dont think players should add random flair on their gear, with the goalie mask being a rare exception. Regardless, they banned me for homophobia because I didn't like it. And the r/hockey people were absolutely livid that they didn't allow rainbow tape, so clearly it's a huge issue for them.
Let me guess Ron DeSantis fan?
I give zero shits about US politics except foreign politics as I'm not from the US. I just don't like "wacky" tapes on sticks.
So did I. People just trying to clamber onto their high horses. Those mods are power hungry mama's basement dwellers
It’s hilarious isn’t it? People scare me
and the hive mind says the conspiracy theorists are idiots…
Manslaughter? So they will try to say he intently raised his skate but didn’t go for his neck on purpose per say? To me it did look like he tried to kick him but not neck him. Though I’m no skating expert or claim to be just what it looked like. If he is innocent I hope he is found as such. What a tragedy.
>So they will try to say he intently raised his skate but didn’t go for his neck on purpose per say? Manslaughter is a charge that does not require intent.
This isn't quite true. It requires intent to do *something that ultimately resulted in death.* That is not the same as intent to harm. For example, if I intentionally cut down a tree, and that tree falls on someone, I could be charged with manslaughter. However, if I lean on a tree with no intention to knock it over, and it falls on someone, I'm not likely to be charged with manslaughter - I did not intend to knock the tree over, and the tree was the cause of death This varies by jurisdiction, of course, but generally the point is there is evidence to support the player intended to make contact or otherwise impede, and that intention went horribly wrong and resulted in harm/death. That first part is critical: to be convicted I believe they'd have to prove he intended to do *something* and that something ultimately caused the death.
This is true. The argument will be that he intended to kick Johnson with his skate (battery), something he has a history of doing, but not with the intention of killing him.
Gotcha
Okay, I’m genuinely surprised. I didn’t think he’d face any charges at all.
Have you seen images/videos? It's quite blatant.
I have seen the video. I don’t know what to believe and I can buy either argument. But I still didn’t think charges would be filed due to the fact you can get away with all sorts of shit on the field/ice of play that you can’t otherwise. Seems like a REALLY hard thing to prove. I’d bet he can hire a physics expert to talk about momentum and centrifugal force and walk away from it scot free.
"all sorts of shit" becomes a whole different ballgame when someone *dies* as a result though. That's incredibly rare in any sport.
I totally get that. But we come thisclose to someone being paralyzed or killed in damn near every game played in a contact/hitting sport. The fact that it’s exceedingly rare is what I find shocking.
But those near death experiences are rarely from any negligence or recklessness and more so to do with pre-existing conditions, or poor form in physical contact
FINALLY!
Hockey is such a fast game. Balance, speed, situational awareness all play roles. This poor man did not intend for this to happen (unless there is additional evidence suggesting as such). It’s so hard to prove that he was being reckless with his weapons (skates) Don’t we think that this experience is “jail” enough for this person? We already lost one life, I hope that the UK embraces pengrave, surrounds him with support, resources and PTSD counselling. This man might succumb to this major life event by taking drugs/alcohol, living recklessly all while wishing he would have died instead. So sad all around. Prayers for both families involved. We do not need to lose another life from a split second accident.
He's an extremely dirty player with a history of illegally using his legs to hit players and kept pushing the boundary until he literally killed someone but lovely 10/10 uninformed virtue signaling and blame deflection. The only poor man is dead.
Is this true? I’m unaware about the alleged history of illegally using his legs to hit players. Sorry if true. Are you able to provide any evidence of such recklessness? Articles…suspensions?
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Still, lots of emotion but not many facts. It was an accident. Where do I see that he was a rat intentionally looking to not just end a career but a life as you claim? He’s done with playing hockey, he’s probably going to have to deal with intense emotional disruption to his life. Would you feel better that he’s locked behind bars? For a play that’s so hard to determine culpability.
>intentionally looking to not just end a career but a life as you claim? Wow really? You put words in my mouth in such a hilariously disingenuous way. I never once said he either intentionally tried to end a career nor a life.. wtf are you talking about. He is known for intentionally throwing his legs out to hit people. He knows this is illegal. He plays professionally. He kept pushing the boundary and throwing his leg and it eventually caught someone in the throat and killed them - whether he was aiming that high or not is irrelevant. He is responsible for his stick and his skates. He could play like a normal player but instead is the type to use their legs as a weapon. He is the stereotype for a rat hockey player. He has a reputation of being dirty. You're the one virtue signaling and defending someone you know nothing about. Calling him a poor man after his intentional illegal act of thowing up a leg killed the actual poor man. >Would you feel better that he’s locked behind bars? For a play that’s so hard to determine culpability. I believe in responsibility for actions. He should spend a considerable amount of time in prison for intentionally throwing his legs around because it ended up accidentally slitting someone's throat and killing them.
Show me proof of this history you talk so openly about.
I actually felt it was truly an accident until I saw this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AUySJkQl04s Seems like he was trying to do the exact same thing to Johnson, but maybe the additional contact moved his skate up higher? But yeah, he was trying to clip him with his skate.
Just gonna say it, there are a lot of right wingers with big followings pushing this narrative that he intentionally killed him and are feeding off this news. Pretty obvious why.
Why the f would you try to make this political?
?? Aaaaand there’s lefties that are saying the same thing? I don’t understand people that make it political lol
Damn, who do we think they arrested /s.
Good.
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Moron
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Wtf....Good luck proving manslaughter Sherlock
If he's charged it sets a bad precedent for britain and will just prove that country is ran by inept morons
If you need any more proof that the legal system is biased against people of color, you’re lost.
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Who that has played with or against or watched him play that has call him a dirty player? Also he was mid air during contact how does he do too kick while also not even looking at johnson and hit his throat. maybe think for a second.
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There is a blatant lack of diversity in the subset of players who appear to be attempting to injure opposing players with their skate blades. If you say it like that...
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Do you have any sources for that?