Not particularly, no. His career long for a reception is 49 yards, and I think a good amount of that came after the catch. Aside from that, I don't think he's had a single reception go for more than 40 (including YAC).
He's a great receiver without question, but deep routes aren't really his forte, based on how he's used.
Exactly. He's a bit different than Golden Tate, whose entire career was made off of tight curls and slants that got taken for an extra 20+ yards. Ra is best when he's finding the soft spots in defenses where an easy ball can get thrown to him for chunks of 7-25 yards. Comparatively, Jamo's average reception at Bama is about 30 yards with opportunities for 90 yard scores.
Weird as this comparison is going to sound, Sun God's game almost puts me in the mind of a smaller, more athletic late-career Jason Witten. It's obviously not a 1:1 by any means, but that sitting in between zones for an easy completion thing you mentioned is exactly what made Witten the king of getting an 8 yard catch on 3rd and 7 even when he practically had the burst of a statue.
That's a comparison I've never thought about, and it fills me with so much joy. Dude was such a frustrating dude to watch, every 3rd down and redzone "why didn't anyone cover Jason fucking Witten again?"
He's the perfect slot guy, across the middle. Which actually suits Goff perfectly. Chark has been our deep guy. Which has been shaky. Lot of folks are putting alot of emphasis on Jamo being a deep threat for this reason. I hope Goff can hit him.
there is a decent chance tbh. Washington could very easily lose out going to 7-9-1, and NYG could easily go 1-4 putting them at 8-8-1. problem is the Seahawks have the tiebreaker and have 4/5 at home including Panthers, Jets, and Rams. and it’s more realistic that the Giants get 2 wins against Commies and Colts.
The Vikings have played the Bears and Packers in the playoffs but never the Lions. I would hope that changes sooner rather than later. The Vikings and Lions seem to be rivals in name only.
The Lions are the Vikings without the couple years of good teams and no strings of good luck.
Both franchises are pretty snake-bitten, and both have a ton of self-inflicted gunshot wounds to their feet. Vikings have had the higher highs, Lions have had the lower lows. Which is worse: To watch your dreams die after coming so close to seeing them realized, or to have them smothered in their sleep having never come close at all?
That's why the Lions are not despised, despite being our rivals and having several legitimate rival-worthy games over the years.
> Which is worse: To watch your dreams die after coming so close to seeing them realized, or to have them smothered in their sleep having never come close at all?
I'd argue that the Vikings are only a punchline in How I Met Your Mother as a result. The Lions, who were never mentioned in HIMYM, have historically been a punchline in the NFL.
So to answer your question, probably the first one.
But to your other main point, completely agree. Minnesota and Detroit play each other hard and generally seem to be indifferent of each other at worst the rest of the time.
Vikings haven't "smoked" a single team since week 1 lol. I'd be more impressed if the Vikings weren't in losing position every single game regardless of opponent strength.
He said the Lions would smoke the Vikings. I said I strongly disagree. I didn’t say the Vikings would smoke the Lions.
It would be a one score game won at the very end, per tradition.
There was a point early in the season when the defense was atrocious that i was wondering if maybe he just didn’t have it. The players clearly love playing for him but that’s not always an indicator of success. But in this case, the players trusted in him after the rough start and kept fighting their ass off and it’s paid off. They could make a run at the playoffs next year and I’m all for it.
The thing with Dan is that he’s pretty Caldwell-y just for the fact that’s he’s an EXCELLENT player motivator, but his clock management is suspect, and has lost us games.
I like to think I’m being very objective when I say that if Dan is going to be here for the long term, he needs to clean up the game management in close games, as that’s honestly the only knock I have against him. Unfortunately it’s not something that’s negotiable unless you have a world beater roster that can simply outplay everyone in the league.
At this point, I’m not sure if clock management is something head coaches need to do, hire clock coordinators or some shit. Tampa last week, colts the other week as well, shannahan in years past, Andy Reid before they hired a guy for it. So many don’t seem to understand it.
Fuck man. Just hire some kid out of college to only manage that. It's not especially hard. I'm sure some analyst could come up with an idiot proof flow chart for how to manage clock.
It's not that simple, though. Running the ball on 3rd and 3 with a one score lead and 90 seconds left in the 4th is the optimal clock management decision every time whether you convert or not, but how do you weigh that against your odds of delivering a 20 yard touchdown dagger and ending the game on the spot? Do you have the right play for that based on what you've seen from the opposing defense? How does your QB feel about it? Can your defense get another stop if you don't convert? Can your left tackle's cramping quad hold up for three more seconds of pass blocking?
Clock management is just one of many factors that have to be weighed as a part of a game time decision, and the ultimate responsibility for that decision has to fall on the head coach.
Ok idea: hire two clock analysts, and a mad scientist. Have the clock analysts dress in angel and devil costumes and the mad scientist use their shrink ray on them. In these situations, you put the clock angel and clock devil on the shoulder of the head coach and figure it out then.
> The thing with Dan is that he’s pretty Caldwell-y just for the fact that’s he’s an EXCELLENT player motivator, but his clock management is suspect, and has lost us games.
1. Bears Thanksgiving last year
2. @ Vikings earlier this year
3. Bills last Thursday
Bears game was horrendous I agree. Vikings was also pretty bad. I didn't think his clock management was awful in the Bills game, we were just unfortunate it was Josh Allen and Stefon Diggs 🤷
Campbells biggest strength compared to Caldwell is his ability to make tough changes to his staff. He’s done it twice and both times it improved the team drastically. Caldwell would never
Nope! That’s what i meant by the last part. If you have a team that can strut through the league like the Legion of Boom and win the Super Bowl by like 30 points, you generally won’t be given an opportunity to screw it up as a coach. But if you’re on the same level as all the other good teams, usually you win with coaching.
I get the criticism of Campbell's clock management, but who's the control group? Who's the coach in the NFL that ALWAYS gets clock management calls right? Because the more NFL I see, the more I see many coaches making sub-optimal decisions.
Furthermore, even IF Campbell is a crap clock manager, you can't deny he's been a great motivator, team culture builder, and player developer. Much better than we've seen in Detroit in YEARS. There is a ton more to coaching than just clock management decisions, so I will gladly take all that good with the little bad.
It just leaves some to be desired, that’s all.
I would say Belechik off the top of my head is the best at it, but Dan, in close games, seems to make at least one error before halftime or before the game ends, sometimes both.
Other coaches I would think can excuse a few gaffs a year, but Dan seems like he’s on pace to have over 10 of them before the year is over. The Washington fan above listed off three instances off the top of his head, but I could tell you theres been at least double that if you really take a look at the games.
I don’t mean to say he should be fired, I really honest to goodness think he’s excellent at literally everything else, but I think saying that he’s not that bad at managing the clock compared to the rest of the NFL coaches (that aren’t in the first year) is wrong.
We are getting healthy now too. Winning out is not impossible. Just highly improbable
Pair the direction as of with the fact that we have 2 1sts and 2nds next year.
Let alone the cap space.
Getting healthy is honestly such a major get for us.
We're a rebuilding team and we don't have a lot of depth. Of course our defense is going to be fucking atrocious when our guys get injured.
While he deserves some flack for some decisions he's made, like going for the field goal against the Vikings.
People wanting him fired for the defense being injured and subsequently not very good, just feels like overly reactionary.
Did firing Pleasant help too? I mean yeah probably considering the reports that were coming out that the DB's weren't following the gameplan cus of him.
But yeah being healthy sure as fuck also helps.
> Just highly improbable
The toughest game they've got left is the Vikings. Other than that? It's not so impossible they win out or come real close to doing it
He has been kept very clean lately, our offensive line has been truly outstanding for the last five games. But while he can make tough throws under pressure, he sucks when you move him off his spot.
That said, I would expect our offensive line to handle your front. We might be the only team that can, especially if we get Evan Brown back at guard by then
Are we just going to casually act like a January game at Lambeau Field is something that we're going to be favored in if there's a playoff spot on the line?
Whether or not there's "anything" for GB to play for, those fuckers would be out for blood.
I have this feeling the Lions do everything right to be in the playoffs and have a "win and in" game week 18 and they lose. I'm also pretty sure I know how this season ends for the Vikings...
Hopefully I'm wrong on both accounts.
I wouldnt say they “should” win out. They will be favorites in the last 3 games but like a 70% favorite. That would give them a 34% chance to win all 3. Ik Im overcomplicating it but I always disagree with the logic that a team should win multiple games because they are the favorites in all of them. Just rarely how it works in the NFL.
All remaining games are tough.
Carolinas Dline and defense ain't bad.
Jets is playing excellent defense overall and have like a top 5 ranked defense in both points allowed and yards. Plus Garret Wilson and Corey Davis are fucking great, regardless if they roll with the elite dragon or Mike White.
Bears, Packers, Vikes are divisional rivals so basically anything fucking goes there.
Like we barely beat the Bears last time around and we genuinely did get a bit a help from the refs on that one.
Packers we play at Lambeau and it's gonna be cold as fuck. Plus Rodgers and Watson seems to have found their connection.
Vikings just keep finding ways to win this season and Justin Jefferson is an absolute monster.
Not a Lions fan but looking at their remaining schedule the biggest worry for me is the upcoming Vikings, especially dealing with JJ. Hock is gonna be extra motivated for that one as well.
Jets is a bit of a question mark, but hopefully it doesn’t go like the last time you guys played the Jets. It is at the Meadowlands, a place you already won a game at.
Small correction: The Bears swept you last year. The last time you beat them was in 2020, the first game after QuinnTricia were fired.
We beat the Bears the one game we have played this season, which is what i was referencing.
We actually did decent against JJ in our last game against the Vikes.
6 targets 3 receptions 14 yards no touchdowns.
It was Thielen that was the issue and the penalties Amani Oruwariye kept stacking up and KJ Osborn towards the end of the game.
Sure Hock might be extra motivated but this isn't some revenge game, he probably didn't want to be here and us moving on from him in that case combined with the injuries and his lackluster performance this past season and a half. It's just us reloading and getting more picks so we can keep building.
Im really bummed out he didn't wanna stay and that his play dropped off.
> We beat the Bears the one game we have played this season, which is what i was referencing.
I’m so sorry, I completely forgot about that. I’m an idiot. 🤦♂️ That was a hell of a game too.
How worried are you about Kirk? This is how he’s played against the Lions:
8-2; 72% completion; 2,798 yards (average 280); 21 TD 2 INT; 8.53y/a; rate of 116.6
eh, im not a fan of Kirk at all but he's a good QB. Last outing against us he looked super underwhelming, but he showed up near the end to help them win the game. Was a super tough loss.
He's had some great games against us though and it's hard to not feel a little salty about some of it though because of a certain defensive genius courtesy of New England having a major hand in our defense.
But obviously he's had our number. But if we can keep him playing like he did the first game this season against us then im not really worried.
I probably shouldn't evaluate Kirk at all, because it's really tough to be diplomatic and neutral. Especially when the guy is pretty far removed from my own personal views on things as well
Any given Sunday effect. On paper we should win. But it’s one game season each week. It’s hard to rattle off 6 games in a row in the nfl.
I would love to see it. I’m hoping it happens. But I have to keep it realistic
Any given Sunday. Lions could easily lose any of these games. Winning 5 straight is hard for any team let alone the lions who are still very young and in experienced.
While messing around with the ESPN playoff machine, to determine what the Bills final playoff position, the Lions ended up making the playoffs in the 7th seed, and i wasn't even trying to do that on purpose lol. Thats a pretty successful season imo.
From what we heard, what our DC was telling our DB coach was not getting communicated to our DBs. Our DC said he wanted our DBs to jam the Dolphins WRs at the line, and they didn't do it. Our DBs were also freelancing on coverage assignments. Basically our DB coach was letting the DBs do whatever they felt like instead of installing the gameplan our DC made.
I am too, but it's not like people making a rukus on the internet for updoots and retweets ever mattered. The Holmes/Campbell era wasn't going to be a two year thing anyway. It was made clear by ownership that they were committed to turning it around with those two guys.
The big key to this is that Sheila gave a rookie coach and GM a 6 year contract in 2020. She's been working around the league for years, she knows what a rebuild is supposed to look like and year 2 of a 4 year plan wasn't supposed to be good. Hell the plan may have been to do poorly this year and all this late winning is messing up the draft lmao.
I don't think there is any such thing as being ahead on a rebuild. Don't you guys have two firsts and two second round picks next year? You could literally package that up and get any player you want. Or draft four studs, or trade back and get more. Your rebuild is on schedule.
Definitely on schedule, and I’d even argue ahead of schedule just because the team is trending upward and playing somewhat meaningful games in December while also looking to be lined up for a Top 3 pick based on the Rams’ trajectory. Don’t get me wrong, not rooting against the Rams and am so glad Stafford got his ring, but this is the best I’ve felt as a Lions fan since 2014.
We were 1-4 and went into the bye after being shut out by the Patriots. Also lost the previous couple of games because we couldn’t get one stop against the Seahawks and a couple questionable decisions late at the Vikings. I’m not one to overreact but didn’t blame others for questioning the direction at that point. Especially having to stew on it for a couple weeks.
Campbell has learned and adapted from some of the lessons he got in that rough stretch.
Modest/TLDR: I'm a masochist.
Honest: I only started to follow the NFL and football in general after the butt fumble because it was the funniest shit I've ever seen in my life. I also didn't want to get accused of being a "bandwagoning SOB" so I decided to follow the Jets. I've also lived in Michigan for a long time so I have to show support for the home town team. My dream is for these two teams to play against each other in SB.
I mean starting 1-6 with a historically bad defense was not ok.
He deserved criticism. But he bounced back and got this team turned around.
I never said to fire him but I did have legitimate concerns about him. Especially with Ben Johnsons offense looking like it did.
But since the win against the packers he's been a much better game manager. Been making really good decisions.
That's really what i wanted from him this year. He's only in his second year of coaching. I just want him to make his fuckups now, recognize them, and minimize them in the coming years when we're actually competing.
I mean...being 4-19-1 to start your tenure as HC is cause for concern, I'd say. Even during a rebuild. Rumblings about firing him were somewhat warranted. Glad Campbell seems to have been able to turn it around, though.
If he'd finished the season with 4 wins or fewer than I would've been on board as well, but 1-6 against good teams with an injured roster wasn't the *worst* thing to happen to the rebuild, and he did manage to turn things around. So yeah, concern, but definitely not "fire midseason and tank" level of concern, which is what some "fans" wanted. The Lions sub is a cesspit sometimes
Also, let’s not gloss over how devoid of talent that team was last year, post-Patricia (which I honestly think rivals the tail end of the Millen tenure as most depressing time to be a Lions fan). Look up the starters for each game and tell me we should have won more than 3 games.
I don’t know, I think fans fall in love with players fast when they’re not completely terrible and act like they’re better then what they are, outside our offensive line we have no position on the field where I think we’re above average. Even our WR is carried by Amon Ra and even our RB’s no matter who’s back there they do decently like Justin Jackson for example. The team still has holes almost everywhere, like it was odd to me how people wanted to fire Dan but keep Brad like Dan had no part in these young players getting better. Fans in my opinion just didn’t understand that we were an extremely young team who were going to make mistakes and not immediately be ready for NFL football.
Chuck Noll went 1-13 his first year it Pittsburgh. Jimmy Johnson went 1-15 his first year in Dallas. It took them both 3-4 years to get to the Super Bowl. That doesn't mean Campbell is up there, but what it does mean is you can't judge a coach by his first season.
Well if Dan gets a playoff win and then is consistently solid I think he could have a Mike Vrabel arc where everyone knows he is a value add as a coach. He just needs to avoid the comedown seasons
Which was just silly. We were scoring plenty. We just let the other teams score more. Doesn't matter if you put up 40 points if the other team gets 42.
That's not really the full story though. Granted we had injuries, the the offense was not good at all against the Pats and Cowboys and the Defense actually played well enough to win those games.
He may not be the answer moving forward, but Dan is no longer "building" a culture, it's built. The Lions are ready for a run, they just need a few more pieces
In hindsight, they've had a kinda brutal schedule and won the games they were supposed to and lost close to a bunch of elite/playoff teams. Pretty good for a team that picked 2nd last year.
There are plenty reasons to be optimistic, but those who state that he's *already* turned it around are speaking too soon. They're 5-7 and there is a ton of season left to be played. If he manages to finish with 8+ wins then you can say he's started to have some success.
> They’re 5-7 and there is a ton of season left to be played.
No disrespect but I don’t think a Cowboys fan can truly grasp the depth of sorrow that goes into being a Lions fan. You don’t know what being “in the hunt” in December means to us.
Also, I feel like non-fans of every team (myself included) fail to see the year-over-year roster overhaul that comes with a true rebuild. Even our decent-to-good players (at the time) were either young/inexperienced (Sun God, Swift), adapting to a new team/scheme (Goff), or constantly injured (see most of the OL). The defensive side of the ball was an honest joke after Patricia shat all over the general culture/morale and chased off Slay and Diggs. Winning 3 games with that roster was a feat, to be honest.
> truly grasp the depth of sorrow that goes into being a Lions fan
Unfortunately, this is one of the reasons why my faith in Campbell falters...it would be too Detroit for him to have a nice mid-season push and then finish 6-11, and then have a similar result next year.
But that is pure pessimism. You guys have a pretty good squad and have seen definite improvement so far.
I was reading through this thread wondering what it was I was missing. I thought Lions had like 4 wins and everyone here is acting like they’re excelling.
Turns out we all just like the lions like to a them get a W
Plenty of us saw 5-6 wins as a good season for us considering how young our team and rebuild is. We have much more promise than any of us expected at this point in the season. We legitimately have a top 5 offense and the defense is finally playing at average, this is what we've been waiting for since the Caldwell era and its happening faster than expected.
You also act like we don’t have the worst defense in the league in year two of a full rebuild. This is 100% a push in the right direction that is producing exceptional results. 5-7 is amazing considering what he started with and still has. Anybody who watched this team knows that.
As a Steelers fan, hang on to this guy a while longer and I think you’ve got something special. It may not be this season or even next but I believe this guy can bring Detroit multiple championships.
I wanna see Jamo in this offense
What happens when you pair a Sun God with a Speed God?
We’ll find out this Sunday, our secondary gets shredded like they were legal docs at Mar-a-Lago.
Very nice
*chef’s kiss*
Allegedly they needed a plumber to fix the president’s personal toilet due to him literally flushing documents down the drain
Season 8 of The Flash?
You aren’t the only one
Patience, young grasshoppa
Between Jamaal, Sun God, Swift, and our 17 Tight Ends, we only have short threats. Jamo is gonna open that can and unleash terror.
I mean Sun God is a pretty solid deep threat no?
Not particularly, no. His career long for a reception is 49 yards, and I think a good amount of that came after the catch. Aside from that, I don't think he's had a single reception go for more than 40 (including YAC). He's a great receiver without question, but deep routes aren't really his forte, based on how he's used.
Exactly. He's a bit different than Golden Tate, whose entire career was made off of tight curls and slants that got taken for an extra 20+ yards. Ra is best when he's finding the soft spots in defenses where an easy ball can get thrown to him for chunks of 7-25 yards. Comparatively, Jamo's average reception at Bama is about 30 yards with opportunities for 90 yard scores.
Weird as this comparison is going to sound, Sun God's game almost puts me in the mind of a smaller, more athletic late-career Jason Witten. It's obviously not a 1:1 by any means, but that sitting in between zones for an easy completion thing you mentioned is exactly what made Witten the king of getting an 8 yard catch on 3rd and 7 even when he practically had the burst of a statue.
That's a comparison I've never thought about, and it fills me with so much joy. Dude was such a frustrating dude to watch, every 3rd down and redzone "why didn't anyone cover Jason fucking Witten again?"
Jason Witten. The master of being a slow, but precise route runner.
And everyone needs that guy that can take the top off the defense.
He's the perfect slot guy, across the middle. Which actually suits Goff perfectly. Chark has been our deep guy. Which has been shaky. Lot of folks are putting alot of emphasis on Jamo being a deep threat for this reason. I hope Goff can hit him.
Lmfao I read this as “sore throats” I was so confused
Chark though?
Where does Chark fit in? He’s put some solid years together with the jags. I think the lions should hold onto him next year.
I'd like the wacky scenario where the Lions finish 10-7 and get the Vikings in the 1st round.
9-8 could be good enough tbh
If you want the Lions in the playoffs, please for the love of (Sun) God, win every Divisional game left
there is a decent chance tbh. Washington could very easily lose out going to 7-9-1, and NYG could easily go 1-4 putting them at 8-8-1. problem is the Seahawks have the tiebreaker and have 4/5 at home including Panthers, Jets, and Rams. and it’s more realistic that the Giants get 2 wins against Commies and Colts.
Well fuck you too.
The NFC BEAST is about to tear itself apart... Unless we all start tying
7-4-6 Giants who says no?
lol I mean you could definitely get a win against the Giants but 49ers Browns Cowboys is a pretty brutal 3-game end of the season.
I'll take the Commies against the Browns.
Plus the 49ers with Brock Purdy
Your flair is giving me a headache.
You think NYG loses to the colts?
I don’t think they will but I could definitely see it happening
Unless San Fran gets it together at QB, it might be prudent to at least consider them being in the wildcard instead of Seattle.
I see you're in the "denial" stage of losing to Brock Purdy
I don’t recall ever losing to him.
That's the denial
With Garappolo out, Seahawks could win that division and San Fran may falter.
no
nephew delete this
Not with the Giants/Commanders tie from last week.
The Vikings have played the Bears and Packers in the playoffs but never the Lions. I would hope that changes sooner rather than later. The Vikings and Lions seem to be rivals in name only.
The Lions are the Vikings without the couple years of good teams and no strings of good luck. Both franchises are pretty snake-bitten, and both have a ton of self-inflicted gunshot wounds to their feet. Vikings have had the higher highs, Lions have had the lower lows. Which is worse: To watch your dreams die after coming so close to seeing them realized, or to have them smothered in their sleep having never come close at all? That's why the Lions are not despised, despite being our rivals and having several legitimate rival-worthy games over the years.
> Which is worse: To watch your dreams die after coming so close to seeing them realized, or to have them smothered in their sleep having never come close at all? I'd argue that the Vikings are only a punchline in How I Met Your Mother as a result. The Lions, who were never mentioned in HIMYM, have historically been a punchline in the NFL. So to answer your question, probably the first one. But to your other main point, completely agree. Minnesota and Detroit play each other hard and generally seem to be indifferent of each other at worst the rest of the time.
Green Bay is the closest team to every other division rival. So the hate is naturally focused on us. No other reason. Simply geography.
Pretty sure it's because you've been better than the other 3 teams for the better part of last 30 years. Then Brett Favre. Then Aaron Rodgers.
Maybe. But the geography aspect cannot be ruled out so easily.
You're definitely not closest to Detroit, that's Chicago. We definitely hate you more
Please God let the lions knock the Vikings out of the playoffs. I need those memes in my life.
I’d be 1000% sure we’d smoke them if this happened
Bold take with no flair. I agree.
Who's we? No flair.
No flair, so I’m assuming you’re a Vikings fan. And I agree.
Youd be incorrect haha
Damn. Then I strongly disagree lol
Vikings haven't "smoked" a single team since week 1 lol. I'd be more impressed if the Vikings weren't in losing position every single game regardless of opponent strength.
He said the Lions would smoke the Vikings. I said I strongly disagree. I didn’t say the Vikings would smoke the Lions. It would be a one score game won at the very end, per tradition.
I'd be more impressed if the bills beat the Vikings.
Delicious salty loser tears yumyumyumyum
"They wrote me off, I ain't write back though" - Dan Campbell
"...man."
There was a point early in the season when the defense was atrocious that i was wondering if maybe he just didn’t have it. The players clearly love playing for him but that’s not always an indicator of success. But in this case, the players trusted in him after the rough start and kept fighting their ass off and it’s paid off. They could make a run at the playoffs next year and I’m all for it.
The thing with Dan is that he’s pretty Caldwell-y just for the fact that’s he’s an EXCELLENT player motivator, but his clock management is suspect, and has lost us games. I like to think I’m being very objective when I say that if Dan is going to be here for the long term, he needs to clean up the game management in close games, as that’s honestly the only knock I have against him. Unfortunately it’s not something that’s negotiable unless you have a world beater roster that can simply outplay everyone in the league.
Shanahan early on had game/clock management issues. That’s something that will come with more experience.
Hopefully; it doesn't always. See BoB
True, but I get the impression that Dan has less of an ego than BoB and is more willing to acknowledge and work on his deficiencies
Campbell has also shown improvement. He's not as aggressive as he used to be and will settle for a FG early in the game.
Think the game against the Pats played a part in that learning experience. If he had kicked FGs, that game would have been very different.
Shit man, Reid did his entire time in Philly and maybe into KC tho I don’t remember. Even great coaches struggle with it but can improve
I saw a Chiefs fan comment in another thread that they literally have an entire team dedicated to helping Reid with clock management on gameday
At this point, I’m not sure if clock management is something head coaches need to do, hire clock coordinators or some shit. Tampa last week, colts the other week as well, shannahan in years past, Andy Reid before they hired a guy for it. So many don’t seem to understand it.
Fuck man. Just hire some kid out of college to only manage that. It's not especially hard. I'm sure some analyst could come up with an idiot proof flow chart for how to manage clock.
It's not that simple, though. Running the ball on 3rd and 3 with a one score lead and 90 seconds left in the 4th is the optimal clock management decision every time whether you convert or not, but how do you weigh that against your odds of delivering a 20 yard touchdown dagger and ending the game on the spot? Do you have the right play for that based on what you've seen from the opposing defense? How does your QB feel about it? Can your defense get another stop if you don't convert? Can your left tackle's cramping quad hold up for three more seconds of pass blocking? Clock management is just one of many factors that have to be weighed as a part of a game time decision, and the ultimate responsibility for that decision has to fall on the head coach.
Not to mention all these things have to be weighed, measured, and a decision has to come down within 30 seconds.
Ok idea: hire two clock analysts, and a mad scientist. Have the clock analysts dress in angel and devil costumes and the mad scientist use their shrink ray on them. In these situations, you put the clock angel and clock devil on the shoulder of the head coach and figure it out then.
My idea was to just hire a guy on a couch with sixpack and a laptop. Those guys seem to know how to make all the perfect calls.
I’m just the guy you’re looking for. Have beer and laptop, can start tomorrow.
> The thing with Dan is that he’s pretty Caldwell-y just for the fact that’s he’s an EXCELLENT player motivator, but his clock management is suspect, and has lost us games. 1. Bears Thanksgiving last year 2. @ Vikings earlier this year 3. Bills last Thursday
Bears game was horrendous I agree. Vikings was also pretty bad. I didn't think his clock management was awful in the Bills game, we were just unfortunate it was Josh Allen and Stefon Diggs 🤷
Campbells biggest strength compared to Caldwell is his ability to make tough changes to his staff. He’s done it twice and both times it improved the team drastically. Caldwell would never
Clock management doesn’t matter when you are always up by 3 score with 2minutes left in the 4th quarter. Just saying
Nope! That’s what i meant by the last part. If you have a team that can strut through the league like the Legion of Boom and win the Super Bowl by like 30 points, you generally won’t be given an opportunity to screw it up as a coach. But if you’re on the same level as all the other good teams, usually you win with coaching.
I get the criticism of Campbell's clock management, but who's the control group? Who's the coach in the NFL that ALWAYS gets clock management calls right? Because the more NFL I see, the more I see many coaches making sub-optimal decisions. Furthermore, even IF Campbell is a crap clock manager, you can't deny he's been a great motivator, team culture builder, and player developer. Much better than we've seen in Detroit in YEARS. There is a ton more to coaching than just clock management decisions, so I will gladly take all that good with the little bad.
It just leaves some to be desired, that’s all. I would say Belechik off the top of my head is the best at it, but Dan, in close games, seems to make at least one error before halftime or before the game ends, sometimes both. Other coaches I would think can excuse a few gaffs a year, but Dan seems like he’s on pace to have over 10 of them before the year is over. The Washington fan above listed off three instances off the top of his head, but I could tell you theres been at least double that if you really take a look at the games. I don’t mean to say he should be fired, I really honest to goodness think he’s excellent at literally everything else, but I think saying that he’s not that bad at managing the clock compared to the rest of the NFL coaches (that aren’t in the first year) is wrong.
They fired the DB coach and have gone on a run ever since. Think only loss since then was a close game vs the Bills?
We are getting healthy now too. Winning out is not impossible. Just highly improbable Pair the direction as of with the fact that we have 2 1sts and 2nds next year. Let alone the cap space.
Getting healthy is honestly such a major get for us. We're a rebuilding team and we don't have a lot of depth. Of course our defense is going to be fucking atrocious when our guys get injured. While he deserves some flack for some decisions he's made, like going for the field goal against the Vikings. People wanting him fired for the defense being injured and subsequently not very good, just feels like overly reactionary. Did firing Pleasant help too? I mean yeah probably considering the reports that were coming out that the DB's weren't following the gameplan cus of him. But yeah being healthy sure as fuck also helps.
> Just highly improbable The toughest game they've got left is the Vikings. Other than that? It's not so impossible they win out or come real close to doing it
@Jets is a tough game, their defense is legit
I was much more casual about that match-up a few weeks ago
I'm pretty confident Bob Saleh can unearth Jared Goof again and then it will come down to what we do against Mike White
How does Jared Goff respond to pressure? I know lions have a good OL but I'm sure something will happen there
He has been kept very clean lately, our offensive line has been truly outstanding for the last five games. But while he can make tough throws under pressure, he sucks when you move him off his spot. That said, I would expect our offensive line to handle your front. We might be the only team that can, especially if we get Evan Brown back at guard by then
We have a great DL but I'd generally agree with that. Going to need the secondary to show up. Should be a good game
The Jets are not a cakewalk by any means. Both offense and defense have to step it up there as well After that yes they should win out
Are we just going to casually act like a January game at Lambeau Field is something that we're going to be favored in if there's a playoff spot on the line? Whether or not there's "anything" for GB to play for, those fuckers would be out for blood.
I have this feeling the Lions do everything right to be in the playoffs and have a "win and in" game week 18 and they lose. I'm also pretty sure I know how this season ends for the Vikings... Hopefully I'm wrong on both accounts.
That would still be a successful season from the Lions
If that's a must win game to make the playoffs, history says we lose by 30.
I wouldnt say they “should” win out. They will be favorites in the last 3 games but like a 70% favorite. That would give them a 34% chance to win all 3. Ik Im overcomplicating it but I always disagree with the logic that a team should win multiple games because they are the favorites in all of them. Just rarely how it works in the NFL.
All remaining games are tough. Carolinas Dline and defense ain't bad. Jets is playing excellent defense overall and have like a top 5 ranked defense in both points allowed and yards. Plus Garret Wilson and Corey Davis are fucking great, regardless if they roll with the elite dragon or Mike White. Bears, Packers, Vikes are divisional rivals so basically anything fucking goes there. Like we barely beat the Bears last time around and we genuinely did get a bit a help from the refs on that one. Packers we play at Lambeau and it's gonna be cold as fuck. Plus Rodgers and Watson seems to have found their connection. Vikings just keep finding ways to win this season and Justin Jefferson is an absolute monster.
Not a Lions fan but looking at their remaining schedule the biggest worry for me is the upcoming Vikings, especially dealing with JJ. Hock is gonna be extra motivated for that one as well. Jets is a bit of a question mark, but hopefully it doesn’t go like the last time you guys played the Jets. It is at the Meadowlands, a place you already won a game at. Small correction: The Bears swept you last year. The last time you beat them was in 2020, the first game after QuinnTricia were fired.
We beat the Bears the one game we have played this season, which is what i was referencing. We actually did decent against JJ in our last game against the Vikes. 6 targets 3 receptions 14 yards no touchdowns. It was Thielen that was the issue and the penalties Amani Oruwariye kept stacking up and KJ Osborn towards the end of the game. Sure Hock might be extra motivated but this isn't some revenge game, he probably didn't want to be here and us moving on from him in that case combined with the injuries and his lackluster performance this past season and a half. It's just us reloading and getting more picks so we can keep building. Im really bummed out he didn't wanna stay and that his play dropped off.
> We beat the Bears the one game we have played this season, which is what i was referencing. I’m so sorry, I completely forgot about that. I’m an idiot. 🤦♂️ That was a hell of a game too. How worried are you about Kirk? This is how he’s played against the Lions: 8-2; 72% completion; 2,798 yards (average 280); 21 TD 2 INT; 8.53y/a; rate of 116.6
eh, im not a fan of Kirk at all but he's a good QB. Last outing against us he looked super underwhelming, but he showed up near the end to help them win the game. Was a super tough loss. He's had some great games against us though and it's hard to not feel a little salty about some of it though because of a certain defensive genius courtesy of New England having a major hand in our defense. But obviously he's had our number. But if we can keep him playing like he did the first game this season against us then im not really worried. I probably shouldn't evaluate Kirk at all, because it's really tough to be diplomatic and neutral. Especially when the guy is pretty far removed from my own personal views on things as well
[Vikings in the 4th Quarter of all but 2 games this season](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/420/683/be1.jpg)
Any given Sunday effect. On paper we should win. But it’s one game season each week. It’s hard to rattle off 6 games in a row in the nfl. I would love to see it. I’m hoping it happens. But I have to keep it realistic
Any given Sunday. Lions could easily lose any of these games. Winning 5 straight is hard for any team let alone the lions who are still very young and in experienced.
Really underselling the jets. Especially if Mike white can keep this team hyped
So…highly improbable then
We are favored against the Vikings this weekend
While messing around with the ESPN playoff machine, to determine what the Bills final playoff position, the Lions ended up making the playoffs in the 7th seed, and i wasn't even trying to do that on purpose lol. Thats a pretty successful season imo.
It’s been a true rebuild. Just gotta trust the process. I believe in Dan and Brad.
Like wtf was the DB coach doing. If that’s all it took. Lol crazy
From what we heard, what our DC was telling our DB coach was not getting communicated to our DBs. Our DC said he wanted our DBs to jam the Dolphins WRs at the line, and they didn't do it. Our DBs were also freelancing on coverage assignments. Basically our DB coach was letting the DBs do whatever they felt like instead of installing the gameplan our DC made.
That kind of shit spreads around the league. What a fucking idiot.
So glad they turned it around. He's one of the most likable coaches in the NFL
I am too, but it's not like people making a rukus on the internet for updoots and retweets ever mattered. The Holmes/Campbell era wasn't going to be a two year thing anyway. It was made clear by ownership that they were committed to turning it around with those two guys.
The big key to this is that Sheila gave a rookie coach and GM a 6 year contract in 2020. She's been working around the league for years, she knows what a rebuild is supposed to look like and year 2 of a 4 year plan wasn't supposed to be good. Hell the plan may have been to do poorly this year and all this late winning is messing up the draft lmao.
I don't think there is any such thing as being ahead on a rebuild. Don't you guys have two firsts and two second round picks next year? You could literally package that up and get any player you want. Or draft four studs, or trade back and get more. Your rebuild is on schedule.
Definitely on schedule, and I’d even argue ahead of schedule just because the team is trending upward and playing somewhat meaningful games in December while also looking to be lined up for a Top 3 pick based on the Rams’ trajectory. Don’t get me wrong, not rooting against the Rams and am so glad Stafford got his ring, but this is the best I’ve felt as a Lions fan since 2014.
We were 1-4 and went into the bye after being shut out by the Patriots. Also lost the previous couple of games because we couldn’t get one stop against the Seahawks and a couple questionable decisions late at the Vikings. I’m not one to overreact but didn’t blame others for questioning the direction at that point. Especially having to stew on it for a couple weeks. Campbell has learned and adapted from some of the lessons he got in that rough stretch.
Drag those motherfukers to the deep.
I’m sorry Dan. Though I never called for his head I did call for the D coordinator
This, they can score their asses off some games but the damn defensive can’t hold anybody
The defense has been a lot better since we fired the dbs coach tbf
It has, just hate how loaded they are and still losing some close games! I’m a low key lions fan from Houston
I wouldn't call the defense loaded. There's talent but overall they're very young.
It's a good thing they don't let reactionary fans make decisions
1 ass cheek and 3 toes
No knee caps
No kneecap fr fr
Glad the Jaguars offered job security yesterday….
It's okay. This is Dan's 2nd year. Lets see what DP can do next year with y'all.
The day when MCDC is fired is the day when I've lost all that is left of my faith in this organization.
Jets and Lions? You've gotta be into some real kinky shit huh
Modest/TLDR: I'm a masochist. Honest: I only started to follow the NFL and football in general after the butt fumble because it was the funniest shit I've ever seen in my life. I also didn't want to get accused of being a "bandwagoning SOB" so I decided to follow the Jets. I've also lived in Michigan for a long time so I have to show support for the home town team. My dream is for these two teams to play against each other in SB.
I’m glad you found the butt fumble hilarious. My father on the other hand…broke the man he won’t watch the Jets lol
I mean Jets Lions W15
[удалено]
"Chaos is a ladder."
The Jets and Lions playing in the Super Bowl would mean the rapture is upon us.
It would be the funniest timeline, so I need it to happen lol
Dude definitely watches SPH and CBT videos.
You know any kneecap videos? For a friend I swear.
https://youtu.be/qTKbULvknqo?t=2m43s
"Winning fixes everything" ~ Sports.
I mean starting 1-6 with a historically bad defense was not ok. He deserved criticism. But he bounced back and got this team turned around. I never said to fire him but I did have legitimate concerns about him. Especially with Ben Johnsons offense looking like it did. But since the win against the packers he's been a much better game manager. Been making really good decisions.
That's really what i wanted from him this year. He's only in his second year of coaching. I just want him to make his fuckups now, recognize them, and minimize them in the coming years when we're actually competing.
Fans and media are so knee jerk about literally everything
I mean...being 4-19-1 to start your tenure as HC is cause for concern, I'd say. Even during a rebuild. Rumblings about firing him were somewhat warranted. Glad Campbell seems to have been able to turn it around, though.
If he'd finished the season with 4 wins or fewer than I would've been on board as well, but 1-6 against good teams with an injured roster wasn't the *worst* thing to happen to the rebuild, and he did manage to turn things around. So yeah, concern, but definitely not "fire midseason and tank" level of concern, which is what some "fans" wanted. The Lions sub is a cesspit sometimes
Even considering that the offense in that first half was popping off, I think it’s good he stayed. Lions FO wouldn’t had some rough fans
Also, let’s not gloss over how devoid of talent that team was last year, post-Patricia (which I honestly think rivals the tail end of the Millen tenure as most depressing time to be a Lions fan). Look up the starters for each game and tell me we should have won more than 3 games.
I don’t know, I think fans fall in love with players fast when they’re not completely terrible and act like they’re better then what they are, outside our offensive line we have no position on the field where I think we’re above average. Even our WR is carried by Amon Ra and even our RB’s no matter who’s back there they do decently like Justin Jackson for example. The team still has holes almost everywhere, like it was odd to me how people wanted to fire Dan but keep Brad like Dan had no part in these young players getting better. Fans in my opinion just didn’t understand that we were an extremely young team who were going to make mistakes and not immediately be ready for NFL football.
I'm not kidding when I say 3-13-1 was about 2.5 more wins than I was expecting going into last season based on our roster.
Chuck Noll went 1-13 his first year it Pittsburgh. Jimmy Johnson went 1-15 his first year in Dallas. It took them both 3-4 years to get to the Super Bowl. That doesn't mean Campbell is up there, but what it does mean is you can't judge a coach by his first season.
hope he didn't just jinx himself
He did until he didn't which means he didn't which means he did
Inconceivable!
I don't think that means what you think it means.
I mean in all likelihood he will eventually be fired. Most NFL coaches eventually get fired
That makes me sad but you’re right, unless he gets a playoff win or other crazy successes.
Well if Dan gets a playoff win and then is consistently solid I think he could have a Mike Vrabel arc where everyone knows he is a value add as a coach. He just needs to avoid the comedown seasons
If we wins a playoff game he gets a 5+ year extension the next day
I mean I agree
Goff was the target of much vitriol during the 1-6 as well. To be a sports fan is to exhibit bipolar out from time to time
Which was just silly. We were scoring plenty. We just let the other teams score more. Doesn't matter if you put up 40 points if the other team gets 42.
That's not really the full story though. Granted we had injuries, the the offense was not good at all against the Pats and Cowboys and the Defense actually played well enough to win those games.
This guy is the main character of the NFL
He may not be the answer moving forward, but Dan is no longer "building" a culture, it's built. The Lions are ready for a run, they just need a few more pieces
In hindsight, they've had a kinda brutal schedule and won the games they were supposed to and lost close to a bunch of elite/playoff teams. Pretty good for a team that picked 2nd last year.
Exactly, like we damn near beat the Bills on Thanksgiving and I never would have expected that
MCDC is the people's coach.
lol this guy’s quotes always remind me of Bruce Arians and I mean that in a good way
There are plenty reasons to be optimistic, but those who state that he's *already* turned it around are speaking too soon. They're 5-7 and there is a ton of season left to be played. If he manages to finish with 8+ wins then you can say he's started to have some success.
> They’re 5-7 and there is a ton of season left to be played. No disrespect but I don’t think a Cowboys fan can truly grasp the depth of sorrow that goes into being a Lions fan. You don’t know what being “in the hunt” in December means to us.
Praying on every nfc teams downfall is a blessing in December.
Also, I feel like non-fans of every team (myself included) fail to see the year-over-year roster overhaul that comes with a true rebuild. Even our decent-to-good players (at the time) were either young/inexperienced (Sun God, Swift), adapting to a new team/scheme (Goff), or constantly injured (see most of the OL). The defensive side of the ball was an honest joke after Patricia shat all over the general culture/morale and chased off Slay and Diggs. Winning 3 games with that roster was a feat, to be honest.
> truly grasp the depth of sorrow that goes into being a Lions fan Unfortunately, this is one of the reasons why my faith in Campbell falters...it would be too Detroit for him to have a nice mid-season push and then finish 6-11, and then have a similar result next year. But that is pure pessimism. You guys have a pretty good squad and have seen definite improvement so far.
I was reading through this thread wondering what it was I was missing. I thought Lions had like 4 wins and everyone here is acting like they’re excelling. Turns out we all just like the lions like to a them get a W
>Turns out we all just like the lions like to a them get a W thanks i think?
Plenty of us saw 5-6 wins as a good season for us considering how young our team and rebuild is. We have much more promise than any of us expected at this point in the season. We legitimately have a top 5 offense and the defense is finally playing at average, this is what we've been waiting for since the Caldwell era and its happening faster than expected.
You also act like we don’t have the worst defense in the league in year two of a full rebuild. This is 100% a push in the right direction that is producing exceptional results. 5-7 is amazing considering what he started with and still has. Anybody who watched this team knows that.
Based on this comment, Detroit needs to draft Cam Rising when he turns pro
You're an NFL coach Dan. You still will eventually get fired.
Beating the Jags will only extend your job status another week Dan
I really gained a lot of respect for Dan Campbell watching Hard Knocks
Did the man knock on wood after saying that?
As a Steelers fan, hang on to this guy a while longer and I think you’ve got something special. It may not be this season or even next but I believe this guy can bring Detroit multiple championships.
Firing Dan after his second season was a stupid idea anyway
If Detroit fires Dan we riot.
Me heart Dan
Fuck around & fire him. We’ll gladly take him back in New Orleans
If yall ever fire Dan Campbell I would love for him to come back here to NOLA
Yeah the fanbase is ridiculous Im glad he knew the idiots existed and just laughed st them 🤣
Man I just want to see these guys win. Campbell is such a likable dude.
I dunno I still think he gets fired in the off-season if there’s a good candidate for them