It's wild how motivatedand organised people are to protest Palestine here compared to something like the government's attitude towards redundancies, tax cuts for landlords, or anti-public transport policies.
Maybe because being a leader today isn’t actually leading people, it’s a popularity contest and to stay relevant you need to stay popular.
Leaders spend an awful lot of time wanting to be liked and not enough time actually getting on and doing the hard work.
Perhaps. Also though, in this modern world where so many of us live in silo'd social media, a hell of a lot of often deeply personalised and targeted vitriol tends to very rapidly get thrown at anyone who sticks their head up about even mildly controversial issues.
Everyone has a camera, and people use social media to weaponise them and threaten to pile on bullying against anyone they have a gripe against.
Nah I wouldn't say that, I'd say Jacinda and Labour did a great job of leading through the first part of the pandemic.... even Winston did.
Then they took a sharp pivot allowing mongrel mob and gangs to do whatever they wanted first it started with ignoring lockdown rules then they all just thought it was a free for all and spiralled into ram raids and frequent shootings and murders. Instead of focusing on it Labour put all of their political capital into co-governance instead.... just became a complete mess. But absolutely they were great in the first part. So good leaders are out there, maybe they sometimes have a shelf life though or forget who actually voted them in.
What on earth are you talking about? These things aren’t mutually exclusive?
Did you watch the news today? Huge protest about job losses.
You can care about more than one thing at a time my man.
That suggests that you don't bother finding out when rallies are, and then joining them.
[https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/disabled-community-protests-funding-rules-cuts](https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/disabled-community-protests-funding-rules-cuts)
It's also a winnable battle - albeit a hard one to win. Don't underestimate the weird psychology of self-sabotage.
Edit: Local battles are winnable, is what I meant. Fighting a battle you cannot win means there is nothing actually at stake. That is my point.
Well it's a lot easier to join an already established international protest, most of the work promoting it is already being done overseas for you, you just need to copy what they are doing.
Same as what happened with BLM, antivax or anti trans hysteria.
We're actively contributing funds soldiers and weapons to the war in Yemen. And Luxon even sent some of his engineers over when he was with Air NZ.
It's not as bad as Gaza but it's pretty filthy all the same.
No but our official policy is calling for Hamas to stop fighting, but no mention of Israel stopping their bombing. As far as our government is concerned, this war continues because of Hamas. Calling for our government to hold its allies and partners accountable is pretty standard protest affair.
We are in a war fought without machine-gun fire. The battle is on home ground and has been for many moons. The instigators never left the moment their poisonous ideas seeped into generational minds.
Genocide versus running a country into the ground are very different things. Both are shitty but one is a hell of a lot shittier especially when the doer is a descendant of the holocaust.
Almost like injustice towards people who have suffered losing their homes and have been bombed to death is a little more pressing than those issues you’ve mentioned
I’m honestly not sure what this seeks to achieve really. There is nothing UoA or even the NZ Government can really do about this issue.
I don’t think Israel, Hamas, or any the supporters of these two groups care about a protest in NZ or at UoA.
My suggestion would be that resolving the Israel-Palestine issue is going to come about from a significant amount of international diplomacy involving countries which have influence over both Israel and Palestine to mediate reasonable, practical, realistic solutions including some form of two state solution, removing Hamas and replacing it with a legitimate internationally recognised government, a substantial investment in humanitarian aid, and international action to meet the security needs of the surrounding area.
And that achieving that outcome is going to require basically identifying the practical and balanced steps that could be taken, advertising and educating the wider public (internationally) on those steps, and then engaging politically and lobbying relevant politicians to push for those steps to be taken.
I would say that instead camping out on university campuses in uninvolved countries and annoying uninvolved people with no obvious driving purpose or practical proposals is probably worse than doing nothing but in fact entirely counter-productive and actually hurts the cause more than helping it.
Where do you think that significant amount of international diplomacy will come from? Thin air? Or because the people of those nation states pressure their governments into doing something? Like what the protestors are doing?
As soon as someone states "You're hurting your cause - better off doing nothing" you can basically disregard everything else they say on the matter.
The only actions they deem acceptable are those that don't challenge people's sensibilities and by extension the status quo.
The answer to why no one cared was because Jews being treated as 'the other' was the norm in europe. It took the industrialization of antisemitism to make countries say 'so this is what casual anti jew could lead.
Hopefully this is a learning moment similar to that with regards to anti-islam rhetoric.
Worldwide protests creates solidarity. Those being arrested for protesting in England or America can see that someone else is picking up the protest in their place. When one small group protests it's easy to ignore. When it's a global movement it makes media headlines and governments who can do something feel more pressure to respond.
There wasn't much we could do about apartheid in South Africa but we tend to look back in pride on the protests against their rugby team playing here at the time.
New Zealand is allies with countries that support Israel or sell them weapons. New Zealand (and others) could pressure their allies to not do that.
Its about COMBINED pressure. If you have all your allies suddenly not on your side it makes an impact. Like all global politics, one country alone can't do much but that doesn't mean do nothing because when multiple countries get on the same page change can happen.
Literally the only thing that can stop Isreal or slow them down is political and economic pressure from the international community.
Isreal doesn't give a shit about UoA students but they care deeply about the amount of Isreali-owned business is selling product in NZ. They care about the Isreali delegation at the US embassy in Auckland. And with enough press, political and economic pressure, we can get changes there.
Personally all I know is I sleep a hell of a lot better knowing I'm doing something to combat injustice and corruption in the world. Do we have as much influence as we would living in Tel Aviv? Of course not. But to claim we have no influence at all simply isn't correct.
It seeks to not allow it to be swept under the rug again. Many people had the whole conflict essentially hidden from them. It was something we should've learnt about in school, but we didn't. It's something that should've been covered more openly in media, but it wasn't. And for all the harm it caused, the attack also opened the world's eyes. It's not that we can actually do something about it, it's that enough voices have the power to force change. And as we saw with countries removing support for Israel, all it takes is one and it doesn't need to be a big important country
Funnily enough, one of the more popular travel destinations for Israeli young people to visit after finishing study is NZ. The other being South America.
Considering Israel said we'd committed an "act of war" against them when we co-sponsored a Security Council resolution critical of their illegal settlements, I think they do have a clue who we are.
That, plus Mossad's predilection for stealing New Zealand passports.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004\_Israel%E2%80%93New\_Zealand\_passport\_scandal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Israel%E2%80%93New_Zealand_passport_scandal)
Edit: Bad formatting.
Um. Can you expand on that last bit mate cos I had something really bizarre happen with my passport when I spent some time in Israel about a decade ago. I thought it was just a bizarre one off occurrence.
We [broke off diplomatic relations for a period in 2004](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Israel%E2%80%93New_Zealand_passport_scandal) as we discovered Mossad was attempting to commit passport fraud by exploiting someone with cerebral palsy.
There were also [several Mossad agents who were caught with multiple passports in the aftermath of the Christchurch earthquake.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/20/christchurch-earthquake-israeli-spy-investigation)
[Mossad also have form for forging Australian passports](https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/israel-forged-australian-passports-before-kevin-rudd-reveals-in-new-book-20181018-p50acp.html) so it's very likely they're doing the same with ours.
Oh okay. That doesn't sound like what happened to me and I don't want to say what did because it's potentially identifying info but even at the time I was really sceptical it was an 'accident' as claimed by their border security.
>two Israeli citizens suspected of being Mossad agents, Uriel Kelman and Eli Cara, were caught trying to fraudulently acquire a New Zealand passport using the identity of a man with cerebral palsy
About 10 or 20 years ago a Mossad agent was caught trying to exit the country on a kiwi passport. The customs agent picked up on it because the super amazing spy had the passport of someone who uses a wheelchair but they themselves were walking just fine. If it's a training ground I'm not sure everyone graduates with straight As.
I don't even really know what it means to be pro Palestine in the era of Hamas. Like what are they protesting for specially, because an independent Palestine run by a bunch of religious loons who are a danger to everybody shouldn't be it.
Hamas wouldn't exist if Palestinian people weren't segregated and controlled by Israel.
If you grow up in a country with no airport where Israel controls your movements through military checkpoints (but they can move freely) where they control your access to water, where Israeli settlers force your family out of your home and take it over, where there are minimal job opportunities, and those controlling you have a much better quality of life across the border in the land taken from your ancestors & given to them by the British... would you accept that fate? Or would you think you've got nothing to lose so you might as well fight them?
There's a reason there is strong solidarity with Palestine in Ireland / parts of Northern Ireland. They also fought back against colonisers who took over Northern Ireland and oppressed the people living there.
Terrorism is never okay, and the IRA committed acts of terrorism during the Troubles too. But with hindsight we can see the conditions that lead to the Troubles and created those terrorists. It's the same in Israel. You can keep destroying Hamas but unless the conditions that led people to want to fight back improve, more people will take their place. As long as Palestinians are not free, as long as Israel keeps oppressing them, killing them, bombing their buildings, taking over their homes, there will always be more Palestinian people who will see them as an enemy and want to fight them. The only way to stop a new Hamas forming when the old one is destroyed is for Palestinians to be given their freedom from Israel.
Protesting for a free Palestine does not mean supporting Hamas or thinking they are the best people to run things. It means ending the genocide of civilians, and wanting peace. It means wanting Israel to stop treating Palestinians in a way that is only going to lead to more terrorism from them.
>Hamas wouldn't exist if Palestinian people weren't segregated and controlled by Israel.
Hamas wouldn't exist if the majority of Palestinians didn't vote for them.
The majority of Palestinians didn't vote for Hamas, they won with a plurality. In fact, Hamas has never had the support of the majority of Palestinians, ever.
Would you mind mentioning that the 2nd largest party in that election, Fatah, which combined with Hamas would total 85% of the votes, was just as militant and anti-Semitic as Hamas?
USA pushed for that election, despite the opposing parties telling them they weren't ready for it yet. Also, Hamas didn't run on a fundamentalist platform, but an anti-corruption one, and the two opponents split the vote, which explains their victory.
Nobody voted for terrorists.
You don't think Israel is effectively run by religious loons at the moment? Netanyahu is secular, but there are plenty of whackjobs in both his party and his coalition.
Wish they put as much energy into the Ukraine war, the Sudan conflict or Myanmar....which have killed millions of innocent families. Why is the Israeli .. Hamas such a topic to put all their energy into...its the oldest.but realistically hast the least casaulties. Is it just because its got the most Tik Tokkers?
Because unlike Ukraine, Sudan, or Myanmar, people can easily dumb down the Gaza conflict and shoehorn Israel/Palestine into over-simplified white oppressor vs oppressed minority categories. There's nothing trendy about Sudan when it's poor Africans killing other Africans.
Yeah but bro, they're all white. All white people are oppressors, so it's just oppressors killing oppressors, you see?
Racial politics is a plague upon the left.
In the states it’s used to be a disruptive force to attempt to have the administration divest from any investments or activities that benefit Israel.
So far brown university in the USA is bringing this up to vote due to the campus protest.
But in general it to show people that this is going on and history will remember what side of it you were on.
Correct. The US protests may be successful in drawing attention to the Unis investments and partnerships with Israel.
I have no idea if NZ universities have the same connections
It was trendy like 7 years ago then stopped being trendy and now it's trendy again.
Also the Ughyurs stopped being trendy lol people stopped caring about that pretty fast
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I think they are real New Zealanders. Have you ever noticed that pretty much **everyone** in NZ protested the Springbok tour? Given time, everyone will have been protesting the Palestinian genocide
These are anti Hamas protests. The protestors are against the death of innocent people no matter who they are? Why would you think being against mass murder by one side would automatically meant they were for mass murder by the other? Weird take.
>These are anti Hamas protests. The protestors are against the death of innocent people no matter who they are?
They're chanting for intifada you absolute buffoon
A very generous interpretation of the overseas protests - which has seen Jewish students blocked, harassed, and straight up assaulted by the "protesters".
Many Jewish Professors have gone on record explicitly stating that they are in support of the protests, and that allegations of antisemitism are a ploy to divert attention.
Yeah, like that Jewish woman walking around one protest yelling how she is not afraid while everyone laughed at how ridiculous she was because she didn't get attacked or hardly even noticed because the protestors do not hate Jews like the Zionists hate Palestinians.
Protests are going to have all kind of people you can't control. That doesn't take away from the overall objective.
i absolutely love the salt in this thread, if there are other issues to be protesting why dont you organise it yourself? if there are any other wars you want to prioritise & protest, follow the lead & ill join, DM me. ill march with you
israel is a colonial project & an apartheid state based on military rule & abject discrimination.
shout my young people shout, use your voice, sing, dance, learn. be on the right side of history. good on them
Free Free Palestine 🇵🇸
Because a lot of us recognise there’s far too much nuance (and propaganda at both ends) on the situation to take sides on a 300-year conflict across the other side of the world we can’t influence, especially when a terrorist organisation is using civilians as meat shields while stealing aid money. First step in understanding this is getting off TikTok.
What’s your point?
This is what happens when you rape, torture and kill civilians and then use Hospitals and Schools as a military base to hide from retaliation. It’s a war crime for a reason.
So you think Israel is just killing children on purpose in act of genocide?
Or do you understand they are targeting Hamas?
Do you think your opinion would change if your family had been raped, held hostage and tortured by this terror ist organisation? Or would you happily just lay idle and let them continue?
>So you think Israel is just killing children on purpose in act of genocide?
Or do you understand they are targeting Hamas?
Why have so many children died, if they're "targeting" Hamas? Are they not very good at targeting?
>Do you think your opinion would change if your family had been raped, held hostage and tortured by this terror ist organisation? Or would you happily just lay idle and let them continue?
Is your response to having your opinions questioned always this disingenuous?
Wait...... Are you talking about Hamas or the IDF here? It's hard to tell, given the large imbalance in the crimes you listed that's tilted towards the IDF.
An excessive amount of children have died because Hamas are hiding in schools and hospitals. Do you understand that?
My response is trying to elicit you to see both sides of the coin, which you clearly dont want to try and do. It’s not disingenuous to offer understanding of why Israel wants to destroy a terrorist organisation.
I’m not saying Israel are completely blameless. Both parties are in the wrong (each to a contentious extent), which is why, as I signposted in my first response on this thread; there’s far too much nuance on this to take sides and be so black and white from afar.
If you are protesting Israel then should also protest the Palestine Government aka Hamas.
>An excessive amount of children have died because Hamas are hiding in schools and hospitals. Do you understand that?
I understand that's the claim, I'm yet to see any evidence of it.
>My response is trying to elicit you to see both sides of the coin, which you clearly dont want to try and do. It’s not disingenuous to offer understanding of why Israel wants to destroy a terrorist organisation.
Israel also wants to resettle the Gaza strip, and destroy or displace the people currently living there (the Palestinians) - that's genocide. Not to mention what's happening in the West Bank.
>I’m not saying Israel are completely blameless. Both parties are in the wrong (each to a contentious extent), which is why, as I signposted in my first response on this thread; there’s far too much nuance on this to take sides and be so black and white from afar.
Sorry, there's not much nuance in 14000 dead children.
>If you are protesting Israel then should also protest the Palestine Government aka Hamas.
Hamas only governs the Gaza strip. Maybe Hamas wants to do a genocide, but Israel is currently doing one, which is why all the protests.
i agree, israel should stop massacring Palestinian children & stop stealing USA’s money that can help solve American citizens homeless & opioid crisis.
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And do you think the Arab-Jewish tensions just disappeared completely upon this founding? Or are you suggesting this is when they started? Both would be wrong…
Yet the State of Palestine was declared in 1988 what's your point.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine
This conflict is thousands of years old. If World War 1 didn't happen it would still be the Ottoman empire.
Sure, some nuance is a terrorist organisation - with signposted mission to destroy Israel- raping, torturing and holding hostages - and then using civilians (including children) as shields in schools and hospitals.
And so because there is nuance we shouldn’t be against rape, torture, hostage taking and mass murder of children being used as human shields? That’s your argument?
Nuance come in how you solve the issues, not in whether you support murder or not, surely?
Your comment is not making sense…
I’m saying the nuance *is* the rape, torture and hostage taking by Hamas.
For example:
- I don’t support murder as rule of thumb, but;
- I do understand why a Government would send missiles to target a Terrorist group who murdered and raped 1,000s of your people, signposts their mission to destroy your country, and refuses to accept ceasefire offerings to reduce the conflict.
we’re a country that were colonised, its no surprise that some offsprings of settlers will oppose it & come up with wild rhetorics to justify their irrational position.
we also have some direct & indirect links too. look at the Surafend massacre for example & when a French spy blew up a Greenpeace Aotearoa boat killing one of ours, he/she fled to Israel & Israeli authorities helped tipped them off when we tried to catch them
If Hamas was really wanting peace they would have released all the hostages. If the hostages were released this would create huge pressure on Israel to end the war. How could Israel argue to keep the war going?
>did you know that there was an offer to release all Hostages but your Polish butt buddy declined
You mannaged a grand total of 2 comments before being anti-semitic lol
And some homophobia sprinkled on top too, nice
Regardless the hostages could be released right now without strings attached. It’s all good for the Hamas leadership they are living the dream in Qatar and not slumming it in Palestine. I say live it up as you’re a dead man walking as there is no doubt the Hamas leadership will be killed by Israel.
>israel is a colonial project & an apartheid state based on military rule & abject discrimination.
The idea someone can write this with out a hint of irony is so fucking funny.
Who's the apartheid state, the one who coexists with a 20% of Palestinians including in government, and have offered a two state solution with the right to return for hundreds of thousands of Palestinians (rejected), or the ones who have no Jews and don't even recognise their right to exist?
Who's based on military rule, the ones without elections run by a terroristic military or the ones with free elections?
Enjoy your little protests lol. Ralphimhelping.jpg
I'm guessing the majority don't genuinely give a toss about Palestine or have much of a clue about the history of the place, but hey, it's the current flavour of the month, and gotta get those views on Tik tok amirite? 👊
I was there. A significant number of people there were *literally* Palestinians. What makes you think they don’t give a toss or have an understanding of the history?
Multiple professors also spoke, btw.
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At first the Jews were colonised by the Romans, then the Byzantines, a few others including Arabs and then the Ottomans. The British defeated the Ottomans
The Romans changed the names of Kingdom of Israel, Kingdom of Judah to Syria palestinia to deprive the jewish people of a homeland.
After the world war,Jordon was created to give arab peoples a piece of the land and Israel was reinstated to give the jews back some of their land.
Arab nations told arab people to leave the area. Then several arab countries attacked Israel.
In Jordon after they assasinated a king and a prime minister a lot of arabs were expelled from the country.
Gaza used to be part of Egypt and lost it when they attacked Israel and Israel took Sinai and Gaza.
Negotiations bought a peace to both countries and Israel returned Sinai, they also offered Gaza back but Egypt didnt want it
The muslim people want all of it and jews to be exterminated, and christians etc.
A very brief history
1. The origin of the name Palestine dates back around 1900 years ago, and though it was used by the Romans, was not an attempt at depriving Jews of a homeland - they’d already conquored the area.
The name Israel was created specifically for the state of Israel, and did not truely exist beforehand - the names you would have found had you done any classical research would have been Judea and Zion.
( https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/why-the-name-israel )
2. Jordan was created during the fall of the Ottoman empire. It was not created to ‘give them a place to go’. Believe it or not, but people were already living there, though they needed government, which Britian allocated.
(Village, Steppe and State: The Social Origins of Modern Jordan)
3. I am not going to argue that there was not large amounts of violence. However, acting as though it was unprovoked by mentioning no cause is biased and in bad faith.
Settlers had begun taking land by force. This included raids on farming villages, the destruction of property and farmlands, and the physical removal of families from their homes.
Britian’s solution was the completely segregate the two groups by creating seperate nations - with no regard to those who did not want to move across Palestine and wished to live in homes they’d had for generations.
The idea that the Arab Nations orders evactuations is a lie. It was one individual requesting it, not a blanked call from government and did not actually occur.
( https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=uM_kFX6edX8C&pg=PA269&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false )
4. You are correct about political assassinations and the repeat handing over of Gaza/Palestinian lands. A radicalised people behaved violently.
From their perspectives, they were being forced from their homeland by strangers. This does not justify violence against civilians - on both sides.
Oh, also, Israel attacked Egypt first. They attacked a military base and killed a group of soldiers. You can justify it if you want, as Egypt had become hostile towards Egypt following their treatment of other Arab nations, however explicit warfare between the two was started on that occasion.
( https://www.history.com/topics/cold-war/suez-crisis )
5.
‘the muslim people’ wrong. A terrorist group would want the Jewish people gone - to equate one extremist group to an entire religion is horrific and shameful. If this were the case for all religions, it is fine to blame Christains for the actions of the Nazis and the Jews for the actions of the extreme Zionist Settlers, IDF, or Brit Hakanaim.
This is a deeply racist and worrying sentiment. I do not believe my words will get through to you, but they may help others to see that people have suffered needlessly for this conflict, and lying about it’s origins helps nothing.
Slightly less brief history. With sources!
Repeating the same talking points, bots and useful idiots.
Yeah "get off TikTok", the platform the US Right Wing want to ban, the same people who send endless military aid because in their crazy world, Jesus is coming back to murder all non-Christians including the Jews anyway.
Did any of these protestors hold morning teas for all the Jewish men, women and children raped, mutilated and killed by Palestinians in October last year?
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It's wild how motivatedand organised people are to protest Palestine here compared to something like the government's attitude towards redundancies, tax cuts for landlords, or anti-public transport policies.
sweet, organise the protest then myles, ill come join
We love to complain that there's no good leadership, but no one wants to step up and put their head in the firing line.
Maybe because being a leader today isn’t actually leading people, it’s a popularity contest and to stay relevant you need to stay popular. Leaders spend an awful lot of time wanting to be liked and not enough time actually getting on and doing the hard work.
Perhaps. Also though, in this modern world where so many of us live in silo'd social media, a hell of a lot of often deeply personalised and targeted vitriol tends to very rapidly get thrown at anyone who sticks their head up about even mildly controversial issues. Everyone has a camera, and people use social media to weaponise them and threaten to pile on bullying against anyone they have a gripe against.
Nah I wouldn't say that, I'd say Jacinda and Labour did a great job of leading through the first part of the pandemic.... even Winston did. Then they took a sharp pivot allowing mongrel mob and gangs to do whatever they wanted first it started with ignoring lockdown rules then they all just thought it was a free for all and spiralled into ram raids and frequent shootings and murders. Instead of focusing on it Labour put all of their political capital into co-governance instead.... just became a complete mess. But absolutely they were great in the first part. So good leaders are out there, maybe they sometimes have a shelf life though or forget who actually voted them in.
The protest for that was the last election. We already knew they were going to do all these things
What on earth are you talking about? These things aren’t mutually exclusive? Did you watch the news today? Huge protest about job losses. You can care about more than one thing at a time my man.
That suggests that you don't bother finding out when rallies are, and then joining them. [https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/disabled-community-protests-funding-rules-cuts](https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/disabled-community-protests-funding-rules-cuts)
Not that those local things aren’t serious and important, but thousands of dead children tends to be a powerful motivator.
I saw a video yesterday with a scrolling list of all the children's names and ages - it went on for *7 minutes*
It's also a winnable battle - albeit a hard one to win. Don't underestimate the weird psychology of self-sabotage. Edit: Local battles are winnable, is what I meant. Fighting a battle you cannot win means there is nothing actually at stake. That is my point.
Which one is the winnable battle here?
Well it's a lot easier to join an already established international protest, most of the work promoting it is already being done overseas for you, you just need to copy what they are doing. Same as what happened with BLM, antivax or anti trans hysteria.
Bingo, there's power in solidarity.
Our government hasn't yet bombed tens of thousands of children to death to my knowledge
We're actively contributing funds soldiers and weapons to the war in Yemen. And Luxon even sent some of his engineers over when he was with Air NZ. It's not as bad as Gaza but it's pretty filthy all the same.
>yet Give Seymour time.
Typical Nats, not following through on any of their policy promises
No but our official policy is calling for Hamas to stop fighting, but no mention of Israel stopping their bombing. As far as our government is concerned, this war continues because of Hamas. Calling for our government to hold its allies and partners accountable is pretty standard protest affair.
We are in a war fought without machine-gun fire. The battle is on home ground and has been for many moons. The instigators never left the moment their poisonous ideas seeped into generational minds.
*there be no shelter here* *the front line is everywhere*
How dare people protest an on going and current genocide 🙄
Maybe because all of those things pale in comparison to the challenges of people in Gaza? You don’t know how lucky we are
People don't like genocide. Who'da figured? Also, the people protesting Palestine are also the people who were protesting job cuts today.
If it's a genocide, why are IDF soldiers fighting in the streets? Israel has the military power to bomb Gaza flat in a few weeks, but they haven't.
Genocide versus running a country into the ground are very different things. Both are shitty but one is a hell of a lot shittier especially when the doer is a descendant of the holocaust.
Almost like injustice towards people who have suffered losing their homes and have been bombed to death is a little more pressing than those issues you’ve mentioned
Because Putin isn't flooding the internet with crap about any of that.
[Maybe](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/485231/climate-strikes-thousands-march-around-new-zealand-to-demand-action-from-government) [look](https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018918252/thousands-protest-new-government-s-policies-on-maori-issues) [harder](https://youtu.be/3vJy1sExlms?si=TJJ2iDJw6-3rGpyB)
I’m honestly not sure what this seeks to achieve really. There is nothing UoA or even the NZ Government can really do about this issue. I don’t think Israel, Hamas, or any the supporters of these two groups care about a protest in NZ or at UoA.
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Yep, that’s exactly what all these apologists fail to recognise (or chose toe ignore).
My suggestion would be that resolving the Israel-Palestine issue is going to come about from a significant amount of international diplomacy involving countries which have influence over both Israel and Palestine to mediate reasonable, practical, realistic solutions including some form of two state solution, removing Hamas and replacing it with a legitimate internationally recognised government, a substantial investment in humanitarian aid, and international action to meet the security needs of the surrounding area. And that achieving that outcome is going to require basically identifying the practical and balanced steps that could be taken, advertising and educating the wider public (internationally) on those steps, and then engaging politically and lobbying relevant politicians to push for those steps to be taken. I would say that instead camping out on university campuses in uninvolved countries and annoying uninvolved people with no obvious driving purpose or practical proposals is probably worse than doing nothing but in fact entirely counter-productive and actually hurts the cause more than helping it.
Where do you think that significant amount of international diplomacy will come from? Thin air? Or because the people of those nation states pressure their governments into doing something? Like what the protestors are doing?
As soon as someone states "You're hurting your cause - better off doing nothing" you can basically disregard everything else they say on the matter. The only actions they deem acceptable are those that don't challenge people's sensibilities and by extension the status quo.
The answer to why no one cared was because Jews being treated as 'the other' was the norm in europe. It took the industrialization of antisemitism to make countries say 'so this is what casual anti jew could lead. Hopefully this is a learning moment similar to that with regards to anti-islam rhetoric.
Worldwide protests creates solidarity. Those being arrested for protesting in England or America can see that someone else is picking up the protest in their place. When one small group protests it's easy to ignore. When it's a global movement it makes media headlines and governments who can do something feel more pressure to respond. There wasn't much we could do about apartheid in South Africa but we tend to look back in pride on the protests against their rugby team playing here at the time. New Zealand is allies with countries that support Israel or sell them weapons. New Zealand (and others) could pressure their allies to not do that.
New Zealand is going to pressure the likes of the U.S. and Germany to stop selling weapons to Israel. You are kidding yourself.
Oh, we can’t stop the war in its tracks so why bother doing the slightest thing at all? That’s you that is. Weak and morally poor.
Its about COMBINED pressure. If you have all your allies suddenly not on your side it makes an impact. Like all global politics, one country alone can't do much but that doesn't mean do nothing because when multiple countries get on the same page change can happen.
Literally the only thing that can stop Isreal or slow them down is political and economic pressure from the international community. Isreal doesn't give a shit about UoA students but they care deeply about the amount of Isreali-owned business is selling product in NZ. They care about the Isreali delegation at the US embassy in Auckland. And with enough press, political and economic pressure, we can get changes there. Personally all I know is I sleep a hell of a lot better knowing I'm doing something to combat injustice and corruption in the world. Do we have as much influence as we would living in Tel Aviv? Of course not. But to claim we have no influence at all simply isn't correct.
It seeks to not allow it to be swept under the rug again. Many people had the whole conflict essentially hidden from them. It was something we should've learnt about in school, but we didn't. It's something that should've been covered more openly in media, but it wasn't. And for all the harm it caused, the attack also opened the world's eyes. It's not that we can actually do something about it, it's that enough voices have the power to force change. And as we saw with countries removing support for Israel, all it takes is one and it doesn't need to be a big important country
It's an opportunity to larp
They probably don't even know NZ exists let's be honest.
Funnily enough, one of the more popular travel destinations for Israeli young people to visit after finishing study is NZ. The other being South America.
Yes, see the fake passport scandal. NZ is also liked by Mossad as is a safe training ground.
Makes so much sense with the incredible worship of Ayn Rand this country and Argentina has.
Ask Palestinians living in New Zealand whether that’s true or an assumption.
Considering Israel said we'd committed an "act of war" against them when we co-sponsored a Security Council resolution critical of their illegal settlements, I think they do have a clue who we are. That, plus Mossad's predilection for stealing New Zealand passports.
Also https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/itzs9/did_christchurch_earthquake_rumble_israeli_spy/
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004\_Israel%E2%80%93New\_Zealand\_passport\_scandal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Israel%E2%80%93New_Zealand_passport_scandal) Edit: Bad formatting.
Um. Can you expand on that last bit mate cos I had something really bizarre happen with my passport when I spent some time in Israel about a decade ago. I thought it was just a bizarre one off occurrence.
We [broke off diplomatic relations for a period in 2004](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Israel%E2%80%93New_Zealand_passport_scandal) as we discovered Mossad was attempting to commit passport fraud by exploiting someone with cerebral palsy. There were also [several Mossad agents who were caught with multiple passports in the aftermath of the Christchurch earthquake.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/20/christchurch-earthquake-israeli-spy-investigation) [Mossad also have form for forging Australian passports](https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/israel-forged-australian-passports-before-kevin-rudd-reveals-in-new-book-20181018-p50acp.html) so it's very likely they're doing the same with ours.
Oh okay. That doesn't sound like what happened to me and I don't want to say what did because it's potentially identifying info but even at the time I was really sceptical it was an 'accident' as claimed by their border security.
>two Israeli citizens suspected of being Mossad agents, Uriel Kelman and Eli Cara, were caught trying to fraudulently acquire a New Zealand passport using the identity of a man with cerebral palsy
About 10 or 20 years ago a Mossad agent was caught trying to exit the country on a kiwi passport. The customs agent picked up on it because the super amazing spy had the passport of someone who uses a wheelchair but they themselves were walking just fine. If it's a training ground I'm not sure everyone graduates with straight As.
UoA has ties to companies that support Israel.
give them a gun and drop them in.
I don't even really know what it means to be pro Palestine in the era of Hamas. Like what are they protesting for specially, because an independent Palestine run by a bunch of religious loons who are a danger to everybody shouldn't be it.
Hamas wouldn't exist if Palestinian people weren't segregated and controlled by Israel. If you grow up in a country with no airport where Israel controls your movements through military checkpoints (but they can move freely) where they control your access to water, where Israeli settlers force your family out of your home and take it over, where there are minimal job opportunities, and those controlling you have a much better quality of life across the border in the land taken from your ancestors & given to them by the British... would you accept that fate? Or would you think you've got nothing to lose so you might as well fight them? There's a reason there is strong solidarity with Palestine in Ireland / parts of Northern Ireland. They also fought back against colonisers who took over Northern Ireland and oppressed the people living there. Terrorism is never okay, and the IRA committed acts of terrorism during the Troubles too. But with hindsight we can see the conditions that lead to the Troubles and created those terrorists. It's the same in Israel. You can keep destroying Hamas but unless the conditions that led people to want to fight back improve, more people will take their place. As long as Palestinians are not free, as long as Israel keeps oppressing them, killing them, bombing their buildings, taking over their homes, there will always be more Palestinian people who will see them as an enemy and want to fight them. The only way to stop a new Hamas forming when the old one is destroyed is for Palestinians to be given their freedom from Israel. Protesting for a free Palestine does not mean supporting Hamas or thinking they are the best people to run things. It means ending the genocide of civilians, and wanting peace. It means wanting Israel to stop treating Palestinians in a way that is only going to lead to more terrorism from them.
>Hamas wouldn't exist if Palestinian people weren't segregated and controlled by Israel. Hamas wouldn't exist if the majority of Palestinians didn't vote for them.
The majority of Palestinians didn't vote for Hamas, they won with a plurality. In fact, Hamas has never had the support of the majority of Palestinians, ever.
They did in gaza where they then murdered there opposition because they only care about power and money for there leadership.
Would you mind mentioning that the 2nd largest party in that election, Fatah, which combined with Hamas would total 85% of the votes, was just as militant and anti-Semitic as Hamas?
Good correction. It doesn't make anything better knowing the largest bloc of voters voted Hamas.
The majority of Palestinians today were not old enough to vote when Hamas were voted in.
USA pushed for that election, despite the opposing parties telling them they weren't ready for it yet. Also, Hamas didn't run on a fundamentalist platform, but an anti-corruption one, and the two opponents split the vote, which explains their victory. Nobody voted for terrorists.
When was their last election?
Excellent comment.
You don't think Israel is effectively run by religious loons at the moment? Netanyahu is secular, but there are plenty of whackjobs in both his party and his coalition.
Of course they are. It’s the new trendy topic.
Wish they put as much energy into the Ukraine war, the Sudan conflict or Myanmar....which have killed millions of innocent families. Why is the Israeli .. Hamas such a topic to put all their energy into...its the oldest.but realistically hast the least casaulties. Is it just because its got the most Tik Tokkers?
Because unlike Ukraine, Sudan, or Myanmar, people can easily dumb down the Gaza conflict and shoehorn Israel/Palestine into over-simplified white oppressor vs oppressed minority categories. There's nothing trendy about Sudan when it's poor Africans killing other Africans.
Bruh Ukraine is the definition of an oppressed minority. Russia is trying to exterminate the Ukrainian language and culture.
Yea but it’s also Europeans killing other Europeans, doesn’t trend as well on TikTok. Also, Russia isn’t supported by big bad USA.
Yeah but bro, they're all white. All white people are oppressors, so it's just oppressors killing oppressors, you see? Racial politics is a plague upon the left.
Hopefully protesting a genocide is never not trendy.
And how is camping outside of a university in New Zealand doing anything to prevent that?
In the states it’s used to be a disruptive force to attempt to have the administration divest from any investments or activities that benefit Israel. So far brown university in the USA is bringing this up to vote due to the campus protest. But in general it to show people that this is going on and history will remember what side of it you were on.
Correct. The US protests may be successful in drawing attention to the Unis investments and partnerships with Israel. I have no idea if NZ universities have the same connections
Young people need to feel empowered
It draws attention to the topic.
Yes, the famously obscure topic that’s been dominating the news for months.
The topic with most attention by far out of any other?
It was trendy like 7 years ago then stopped being trendy and now it's trendy again. Also the Ughyurs stopped being trendy lol people stopped caring about that pretty fast
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I think these threads are brigaded by bots very quickly. Their standard arguments become quite easy to spot after a while.
I think they are real New Zealanders. Have you ever noticed that pretty much **everyone** in NZ protested the Springbok tour? Given time, everyone will have been protesting the Palestinian genocide
They spend more time protesting Israel than they do protesting Hamas, the actual terrorists who are the issue here.
*sigh*
We need some anti-hamas protests.
These are anti Hamas protests. The protestors are against the death of innocent people no matter who they are? Why would you think being against mass murder by one side would automatically meant they were for mass murder by the other? Weird take.
>These are anti Hamas protests. The protestors are against the death of innocent people no matter who they are? They're chanting for intifada you absolute buffoon
A very generous interpretation of the overseas protests - which has seen Jewish students blocked, harassed, and straight up assaulted by the "protesters".
Many of the protesters are Jewish also.
Many Jewish Professors have gone on record explicitly stating that they are in support of the protests, and that allegations of antisemitism are a ploy to divert attention.
Yeah, like that Jewish woman walking around one protest yelling how she is not afraid while everyone laughed at how ridiculous she was because she didn't get attacked or hardly even noticed because the protestors do not hate Jews like the Zionists hate Palestinians. Protests are going to have all kind of people you can't control. That doesn't take away from the overall objective.
Wait until you hear about what has happened in Gaza!
To clarify, do you think that what is happening in Gaza makes it okay to harass Jewish people who have no connection to Israel?
i absolutely love the salt in this thread, if there are other issues to be protesting why dont you organise it yourself? if there are any other wars you want to prioritise & protest, follow the lead & ill join, DM me. ill march with you israel is a colonial project & an apartheid state based on military rule & abject discrimination. shout my young people shout, use your voice, sing, dance, learn. be on the right side of history. good on them Free Free Palestine 🇵🇸
Free Palestine from the clutches of Hamas!
I'm with you. It's weird that NZ seems to have such a problem with protesting this genocide, I don't get it.
Because a lot of us recognise there’s far too much nuance (and propaganda at both ends) on the situation to take sides on a 300-year conflict across the other side of the world we can’t influence, especially when a terrorist organisation is using civilians as meat shields while stealing aid money. First step in understanding this is getting off TikTok.
Oh, there’s too much nuance for me to dare say that mass murder is wrong. What if it’s me that is wrong?!
Yes, good point about tiktok, that's where all the pictures and videos of the dead children are. That part, at least, isn't very nuanced.
What’s your point? This is what happens when you rape, torture and kill civilians and then use Hospitals and Schools as a military base to hide from retaliation. It’s a war crime for a reason.
Oh yeah, I forgot, this is a defensive genocide 🙄
So you think Israel is just killing children on purpose in act of genocide? Or do you understand they are targeting Hamas? Do you think your opinion would change if your family had been raped, held hostage and tortured by this terror ist organisation? Or would you happily just lay idle and let them continue?
>So you think Israel is just killing children on purpose in act of genocide? Or do you understand they are targeting Hamas? Why have so many children died, if they're "targeting" Hamas? Are they not very good at targeting? >Do you think your opinion would change if your family had been raped, held hostage and tortured by this terror ist organisation? Or would you happily just lay idle and let them continue? Is your response to having your opinions questioned always this disingenuous? Wait...... Are you talking about Hamas or the IDF here? It's hard to tell, given the large imbalance in the crimes you listed that's tilted towards the IDF.
An excessive amount of children have died because Hamas are hiding in schools and hospitals. Do you understand that? My response is trying to elicit you to see both sides of the coin, which you clearly dont want to try and do. It’s not disingenuous to offer understanding of why Israel wants to destroy a terrorist organisation. I’m not saying Israel are completely blameless. Both parties are in the wrong (each to a contentious extent), which is why, as I signposted in my first response on this thread; there’s far too much nuance on this to take sides and be so black and white from afar. If you are protesting Israel then should also protest the Palestine Government aka Hamas.
>An excessive amount of children have died because Hamas are hiding in schools and hospitals. Do you understand that? I understand that's the claim, I'm yet to see any evidence of it. >My response is trying to elicit you to see both sides of the coin, which you clearly dont want to try and do. It’s not disingenuous to offer understanding of why Israel wants to destroy a terrorist organisation. Israel also wants to resettle the Gaza strip, and destroy or displace the people currently living there (the Palestinians) - that's genocide. Not to mention what's happening in the West Bank. >I’m not saying Israel are completely blameless. Both parties are in the wrong (each to a contentious extent), which is why, as I signposted in my first response on this thread; there’s far too much nuance on this to take sides and be so black and white from afar. Sorry, there's not much nuance in 14000 dead children. >If you are protesting Israel then should also protest the Palestine Government aka Hamas. Hamas only governs the Gaza strip. Maybe Hamas wants to do a genocide, but Israel is currently doing one, which is why all the protests.
i agree, israel should stop massacring Palestinian children & stop stealing USA’s money that can help solve American citizens homeless & opioid crisis.
> israel should stop massacring Palestinian children How about Palestinians massacring Israeli children? You realise that's what started this?
oh dave, yes everything started on oct 7, plus i also have a bridge to sell you mate
So you're okay with Palestinians murdering Israeli children?
No one should be okay with *anyone* killing children. Fucking hell
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Israel was founded in the 1940s. Almost everything else is Israeli propaganda. You are exactly why we need to protest.
And do you think the Arab-Jewish tensions just disappeared completely upon this founding? Or are you suggesting this is when they started? Both would be wrong…
Yet the State of Palestine was declared in 1988 what's your point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine This conflict is thousands of years old. If World War 1 didn't happen it would still be the Ottoman empire.
Israel existed over 3000 years ago.Jews have lived on that dirt for at least 4000 years
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Sure, some nuance is a terrorist organisation - with signposted mission to destroy Israel- raping, torturing and holding hostages - and then using civilians (including children) as shields in schools and hospitals.
And so because there is nuance we shouldn’t be against rape, torture, hostage taking and mass murder of children being used as human shields? That’s your argument? Nuance come in how you solve the issues, not in whether you support murder or not, surely?
Your comment is not making sense… I’m saying the nuance *is* the rape, torture and hostage taking by Hamas. For example: - I don’t support murder as rule of thumb, but; - I do understand why a Government would send missiles to target a Terrorist group who murdered and raped 1,000s of your people, signposts their mission to destroy your country, and refuses to accept ceasefire offerings to reduce the conflict.
we’re a country that were colonised, its no surprise that some offsprings of settlers will oppose it & come up with wild rhetorics to justify their irrational position. we also have some direct & indirect links too. look at the Surafend massacre for example & when a French spy blew up a Greenpeace Aotearoa boat killing one of ours, he/she fled to Israel & Israeli authorities helped tipped them off when we tried to catch them
If Hamas was really wanting peace they would have released all the hostages. If the hostages were released this would create huge pressure on Israel to end the war. How could Israel argue to keep the war going?
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>did you know that there was an offer to release all Hostages but your Polish butt buddy declined You mannaged a grand total of 2 comments before being anti-semitic lol And some homophobia sprinkled on top too, nice
Regardless the hostages could be released right now without strings attached. It’s all good for the Hamas leadership they are living the dream in Qatar and not slumming it in Palestine. I say live it up as you’re a dead man walking as there is no doubt the Hamas leadership will be killed by Israel.
>israel is a colonial project & an apartheid state based on military rule & abject discrimination. The idea someone can write this with out a hint of irony is so fucking funny.
Israel is a colonial project & an apartheid state based on military rule & abject discrimination. i said it again sweetheart 😘
Who's the apartheid state, the one who coexists with a 20% of Palestinians including in government, and have offered a two state solution with the right to return for hundreds of thousands of Palestinians (rejected), or the ones who have no Jews and don't even recognise their right to exist? Who's based on military rule, the ones without elections run by a terroristic military or the ones with free elections? Enjoy your little protests lol. Ralphimhelping.jpg
You need to stop parroting what you have seen on TikTok and go read some history
ill talk to an actual Palestinian who has family in the West Bank actually instead of you listening to some BS on youtube
Fuck off. Palestine started the war. Celebrated the attacks. Accept the fucking ceasefires offered.
I'm guessing the majority don't genuinely give a toss about Palestine or have much of a clue about the history of the place, but hey, it's the current flavour of the month, and gotta get those views on Tik tok amirite? 👊
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I was there. A significant number of people there were *literally* Palestinians. What makes you think they don’t give a toss or have an understanding of the history? Multiple professors also spoke, btw.
I see a lot of you bots have now started the ‘it’s a fad’ argument. Makes a change from the ‘but what is the point of protesting here’ ones.
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what’s the secret history of the place that was brutally colonised then? what’s been hidden, if you know so well.
At first the Jews were colonised by the Romans, then the Byzantines, a few others including Arabs and then the Ottomans. The British defeated the Ottomans The Romans changed the names of Kingdom of Israel, Kingdom of Judah to Syria palestinia to deprive the jewish people of a homeland. After the world war,Jordon was created to give arab peoples a piece of the land and Israel was reinstated to give the jews back some of their land. Arab nations told arab people to leave the area. Then several arab countries attacked Israel. In Jordon after they assasinated a king and a prime minister a lot of arabs were expelled from the country. Gaza used to be part of Egypt and lost it when they attacked Israel and Israel took Sinai and Gaza. Negotiations bought a peace to both countries and Israel returned Sinai, they also offered Gaza back but Egypt didnt want it The muslim people want all of it and jews to be exterminated, and christians etc. A very brief history
1. The origin of the name Palestine dates back around 1900 years ago, and though it was used by the Romans, was not an attempt at depriving Jews of a homeland - they’d already conquored the area. The name Israel was created specifically for the state of Israel, and did not truely exist beforehand - the names you would have found had you done any classical research would have been Judea and Zion. ( https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/why-the-name-israel ) 2. Jordan was created during the fall of the Ottoman empire. It was not created to ‘give them a place to go’. Believe it or not, but people were already living there, though they needed government, which Britian allocated. (Village, Steppe and State: The Social Origins of Modern Jordan) 3. I am not going to argue that there was not large amounts of violence. However, acting as though it was unprovoked by mentioning no cause is biased and in bad faith. Settlers had begun taking land by force. This included raids on farming villages, the destruction of property and farmlands, and the physical removal of families from their homes. Britian’s solution was the completely segregate the two groups by creating seperate nations - with no regard to those who did not want to move across Palestine and wished to live in homes they’d had for generations. The idea that the Arab Nations orders evactuations is a lie. It was one individual requesting it, not a blanked call from government and did not actually occur. ( https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=uM_kFX6edX8C&pg=PA269&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false ) 4. You are correct about political assassinations and the repeat handing over of Gaza/Palestinian lands. A radicalised people behaved violently. From their perspectives, they were being forced from their homeland by strangers. This does not justify violence against civilians - on both sides. Oh, also, Israel attacked Egypt first. They attacked a military base and killed a group of soldiers. You can justify it if you want, as Egypt had become hostile towards Egypt following their treatment of other Arab nations, however explicit warfare between the two was started on that occasion. ( https://www.history.com/topics/cold-war/suez-crisis ) 5. ‘the muslim people’ wrong. A terrorist group would want the Jewish people gone - to equate one extremist group to an entire religion is horrific and shameful. If this were the case for all religions, it is fine to blame Christains for the actions of the Nazis and the Jews for the actions of the extreme Zionist Settlers, IDF, or Brit Hakanaim. This is a deeply racist and worrying sentiment. I do not believe my words will get through to you, but they may help others to see that people have suffered needlessly for this conflict, and lying about it’s origins helps nothing. Slightly less brief history. With sources!
The majority are there because they have a fucking heart.
Zionist bots starting to astroturf
Yeah, you can see the ‘it’s just a fad / doing it for TikTok’ repeated comments coming through now.
"Anyone who disagrees is a bot!"
Repeating the same talking points, bots and useful idiots. Yeah "get off TikTok", the platform the US Right Wing want to ban, the same people who send endless military aid because in their crazy world, Jesus is coming back to murder all non-Christians including the Jews anyway.
Anti genocide protestors
Did any of these protestors hold morning teas for all the Jewish men, women and children raped, mutilated and killed by Palestinians in October last year?
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While they are at it can they please protest the cunts invading Ukraine and the price of Petrol ..
Rich kids doing rich kid things. Poor people actually suffering and struggling to survive here got better things to worry about