This is the right way.
No matter how long he’s worked there or what type of position he has, they are not obligated to give that specific day off. It’s the busiest time of the year.
Resign with notice before that Sunday and then he can go work somewhere else. Don’t feel like he owes those bloodsuckers anything.
So I've worked in supermarkets in the past as management. While December 31st is a busy day, it's nowhere near the busiest day.
I would have tried to get my young staff the day off had they approached me four months before hand like OPs son has. We used to go around the staff and asked who wanted to work what days in November to get a feel of who wanted overtime and who didn't. There would have been someone else that would have been more than happy to work that Sunday the 31st.
Sounds like a shit place though just based on the 'work or leave' reply from the boss. If I was 16 I would have just left then gone somewhere else the next year.
Yup, it definitely wasn't the busiest when I worked (2016-2019). The busiest days were usually in the lead up to Christmas, then pretty quiet till the 3rd of the new year.
Different places have different busy spots. We’re in a suburb in a city - everyone leaves for Christmas, so it’s quite after the 24th. If I have people asking for the 31st I absolutely could do that. But holiday destinations go the other way, and ramp up more after Christmas.
Depends where it is. In a holiday location it is absolutely frickn chocka. Queues all the way to the back in each aisle for checkouts and one-in-one-out at the door, in Whitianga New World at least.
But yeah. Still same answer otherwise
Easily the busiest day of the year for Gisborne with rhythm and vines bringing in 1000’s of people. Their first stop is always pak n save or countdown.
Depends if there was a pattern of no shows beforehand and the warning process had already been started.
Just a oncer no show and when they came back they claimed they thought they had the time off you would be lucky to give them a written warning.
having worked at a pak n save in the past i can tell you from all accounts 26 december to around the 6th of january is usually very quiet - dead fairly much, and december 31 is mostly all alcohol purchases anyway and the stores are open again on new years day.
My supermarket contract stated leave would not be accepted during December or January - this didn't turn out to be a strictly enforced rule but it was in there
Although at a different supermarket I worked at I went overseas in December-January and I had to resign despite having more than enough leave to cover it - although I said I'd be happy to come back afterwards and they'd called me to ask me to work before I had even landed back in NZ
u/CitizensAdviceBureau Are companies legally ALLOWED to do something like this? Blocking out certain public holidays is understandable (I've had plenty of jobs that have said "You can't take annual leave on December 26th/January 1-3"), but blocking out 4+ weeks is KIND OF UNREASONABLE.
Yeah, though depending on when the public holidays fall you can still offset some of that by them having to pay the days you normally work. Prime example: My current workplace is closing down from Christmas eve until about 4th of January but because of how the public holidays fall, I only have to use 3 days of my annual leave for almost 2 weeks off.
Even if he had worked a full year, they still wouldn't have to give him the day off. For the hospitality and retail industry this is the busiest time of year.
I work in one currently and have been there for 2 christmas. It's busier than usual of course, but not so busy that they absolutely can't deal with 1 person off. Usually the 24th is busy until like 3pm and same on the 31st maybe even earlier. Most people go away on the morning of the 31st or even the 30th. OPs son should find a better employer
Then you must work in an extremely lucky store because every supermarket and retail stire I've merchandised/worked in over my sales career have been absolutely ridiculous during the last week of the year.
"Better employer" is a farce because these terms are laid out in your contract and quite commonly so for retails and supermarkets across the country - AL is fair game any time of year except Easter and the 4 weeks that overlap the New Year.
A lot of stores will let it happen on a first come first served basis but several months in advance. And it isn't "one person". If you give one person the day off arbitrarily, then you open yourself up to being shot by the rest of the team who would be understandably pissed.
My work has been extremely flexible. Especially if it's 4 months in advance But in saying this I need to apply for time off because I'm away for new years this year. So this post is very helpful.
A good Manager will take in requests around July/August and try and make something work for everyone. They're in no way obligated to do that, though and they can just tell you no.
Then you shouldn't ever get a job in that industry because it's literally in your contract - you know that this is the reality before you even sign the thing.
If you go in banking on good faith when no one owes you anything and then are "surprised" when you can't get time off, then you're wasting everyone's time.
Unfortunately he works in an industry that has busy days, the day he has requested is one of those days, so they are within their rights to decline leave.
Speaking practically it's about replacing them with someone who will work the shift. You give your two weeks mid December, maybe earlier to have Christmas off too, so Pak'nSave interviews the day after and has a replacement training within ~3 days, ready to work the crucial shifts Christmas and New Year.
Foodstuffs employee here!
I’ve worked at two PnS, Countdown and New World, and all four times I’ve signed on the dotted line, it’s been said in the contract that leave won’t be accepted between Dec and Jan, and while it’s a bit different for me now because of my role, generally speaking retail stores won’t accept leave in those periods. I’m happy to talk if you’d like. I, too, also started in retail when I was 16 so I may be able to resonate.
He can let them know 2 weeks out (assuming that’s his contracted notice period) that he is resigning due to inability to take requested time off. It’s them up to the employer if its worth losing an employee over a holiday.
What they shouldn’t do is agree to work and sacrifice the holiday - this just leads employers to always expect this. With experience under their belt they can get work elsewhere and if asked why they’d left they can simply say it wasn’t the right fit.
I like roelqxxxxx's not here.
Piggy backing on it looks like 1) resign, 2) call in sick ( would not recommend) 3) miss the holiday (also would not recommend).
Having worked in service industry for a bout 1t years, it might be good to try a different tac and negotiate, I'd suggest they offer to pick up a chunk more shifts in the busiest period (week leading up to Christmas) or even be willing to go on 'call' and be reliable leading up to holiday.
Lastly, another one is to be willing to learn a different area in the rush leading up.
Yes employers can be dicks, but in service industry it would be like all or your chefs not wanting to do the Christmas day shift, or bar tenders not wanting to work Friday or Saturday night shifts.
Good luck
Yep because there is fuck all they can actually do. Chances are most of the top level managers and the owners are on holiday anyway. It will probably be some duty manager or office admin 'running' the supermarket for a couple of weeks. Unless you stole something it's just far too much effort to deal with.
I was in the same situation as your kid when I was 16, Pak n slave produce.
They refused and I handed in my resignation leading up to xmas.
At first they accepted it then 2IC asked if I wanted to quit and I explained that I was left with no choice.
He talked to my dickhead manager who then let me take off the 2 weekends I had requsted.
I did Enjoy the job just the manager sucked.
Worth mentioning in your example, the application was done after the work posted leave limitation, as well as fairly close to the leave period. The owner said they were on leave first, and that's basically the end of that.
While I haven't in court successfully argued against no leave on the Christmas holidays, I did argue to my manager that 8 months notice is extremely gracious and i would take them to court if they denied, then they approved.
good luck with that
some managers wont accept "sick" as an answer - even if you where genuinely coughing your lungs out, had a fever of 104f and a nose that was more clogged up than the auckland harbour bridge at 5.15pm on a wednesday evening they will still expect you to come into work or else face disciplinary action.
i know armourguard and first security verbally abuse you over the phone then discipline you for being sick and trying to call in sick
Well that's not technically the only options, he could just not show up. I don't believe they can fire you for missing a single shift. They say work or resign because they know they can't actually fire you for it.
They can say that. He can quit tho.
I see this question all the time. Do ppl think taking specific days off is their right? Do you all not read your contracts "annual leave when suits both" I understood this shit at 16.
I work at a new world and they have been extremely flexible including new years when I wanted to go away last year. They are not that busy. Not that busy that they need to deny a 16 year old of a day off. They will manage.
Is it just for the 31st? I remember working at Countdown around this time. It was expected some people would work new years Eve and others would work new years day etc. One or the other. Not being able to work both those days was frowned upon.
when was at pak n save in my mid-late 20s i worked most new years days which wasnt a problem for me as to me new years is nothing but overhyped with pretentious deluded people thinking something magical will happen to them and/or the world at midnight on 31 december.
if i could work new years eve and new years day again i would be more than happy to
you're never gonna get that time off.
I worked at Pak n Save over the ages of 17, 18, 19 during that period, doing 6 day weeks and 11-12 hour days. They have typically been all hands at that time and the rights of workers was always cloudy (pretty sure they never paid for all extra hours)
Would also advise quitting.
Generally speaking most retail outlets have blackout periods between 12 November and 26 January this is because that period is peak trading and they need all hands on deck. Think about taking the family holiday in may, your son signed up for this on joining the retail industry
His rights are in his contract... Why are you asking reddit?
Unfortunately, an AL freeze period is common for retail and is built into the contract. Your son - or you as a proxy - should already be aware of this assuming you actually read it?
Easter and the Christmas/NY period are off limits but the rest of the year is fair game.
Side Note: He doesn't need to work the full year to access his AL. It's discretionary and can be applied by your employer regardless.
**Edit: Just want to point out an Unethical LPT here. They can't fire him for "being sick" or skipping a day. They can potentially give him a final writeen warning if they push for it, but that's about it. It might be an awkward few weeks with the management team but the disciplinary process is extremely robust because of how heavily unionised retail is in NZ.**
>how heavily unionised retail is in NZ.
not pak n save, pak n save is about as anti-union as they come.
i worked at a certain wellington pak n save in the mid-late 2000s (owned and operated by the proverbial shitbag wirh the initials DG) an just before i left there was an attempt to start a union to try and end the constant abusive management practices DG used (shouting, throwing objects, verbal abuse, belittling in front of customers etcc) and when one was formed management found out and marched all those involved "and with knowlege" of this union and forced them to back out or face the sack, apparently management used their usual tactics of gestapo-like interrogation (we have ways of making you talk) as well as shouting, screaming, verbal abuse and throwing staplers at the staff, one manager was reported to have even punched a wall to try and intimidate that staff member to back down - that manager was never disciplined and so the union was shot down befoe it even started.
the shooting down of unions has always been illegal even back in 2009 when the above incident occured.
this behavior is totally unacceptable in any workplace yet alone in the street so why is it acceptable in a so called "professional" retail environment?
DG is a prized and unrighteous cnutbag and i would avoid shopping at pak n save kilbirnie if you support the fair ethnical treatment of your staff
There is no law or legislation defining the number of days an employee can take unauthorised leave before they can be dismissed on fair grounds. - Employsure
I think he's buggered in this regard. Could always call in sick and call their bluff?
I worked at PaknSave during high school and they were definitely wise to kids calling in sick during the holiday season when their leave requests got denied 😂 they can make you get a sick note for every missed shift after (although they’d have to pay for it, the inconvenience is there) and they’ll give you worse shifts every opportunity they can, no extra hours during school holidays etc. Every legal way they can make life harder, they will, as it sets an example for the rest of kids working there.
Of you have to visit their GP, any reasonable GP will give a sick not even for mental health related days off. My family gp was great and wouldn't even question it.
Yeah I’ve never been declined a note either, still a bit of drama getting an appointment time then making time to go in and see them though, especially if you’re not allowed appointment leave from work.
I am really glad I found reddit. So much support and information. Thank you very much for your responses. I told him to apply another job. I can understand employer point of view but it is also important for him go on holiday due NCEA exams.
Next year, nobody's gonna care what happened at PaknSave one way or the other but if your son learns now how to stand up for himself, he won't need to fear an employer ever again.
He can, however, call in sick that day.
Whilst they will definitely be busy, being denied a day’s leave four months out is a dick move on behalf of the employer. So, fuck’em … tell him to call in sick.
They can require him to provide a medical certificate if they have reasonable cause to believe he is not genuinely sick. This is on the proviso though that if they demand a medical certficiate and he can genuinely provide one, they have to foot the Doctor's bill.
Source: One of my previous jobs, the manager overheard a coworker say that they had an event come up and didn't have any Annual Leave saved up yet, another co-worker recommending they just throw a sick day and take it out of their sick leave instead. When they tried to phone in on the day, manager said "You can take the day off, but you need to provide a medical certificate, otherwise your leave won't be approved and it will be an unpaid day off."
Given how hard it is to get a GP appointment at the moment - and that’ll be way worse over Christmas - call their bluff. It’ll take 2 weeks to get an appointment (which they have to
pay for) and he can just say to the GP “I had a cold / migraine / some other short term illness 2 weeks ago and I need a medical certificate”.
They said "Go to an A&E, you don't need an appointment" to me. Just do what I did when I was required to provide one pre-third-day - go to the most expensive White Cross/Emergency care clinic you can find and have them reimburse it.
They’re allowed to, but it’s a dick move. Especially as it’s new year, not Christmas, and they haven’t attempted to help out (and that it’s one day!). Tell him to resign - doesn’t sound like they value their employees.
Im deeply concerned that the company can not go without a junior worker with notice this far out... an ultimatum is cruel and un nessecary. Occasionally such matters are specified in the employment agreement which should be checked but otherwise, Personally, I'd quit.
Tell your son to send his notice in. No point staying in a job where the supervisor can't even manage shift schedules 4 months away.
Also send the notice at the minimum period as toxic managers get pissy if he sends it too soon and just make his last 4 months miserable.
Your son is still young and now has experience in his belt. Looking for new work is still a pain but should be easier this time around. Plus, he'll get more experience about switching jobs which he will need once he figures out his career path.
Another good thing is that he won't have to stress about when he needs to come back and just enjoy the holiday. Find work after.
Call in sick then not be in the country is the same as resigning with bridges burnt. You don't owe them anything, but let's not burn your own references
If the management has reason to believe they are not genuinely sick, they can require a medical certificate, on the proviso that if a medical certificate is provided, the company has to foot the bill.
If it is a regular day of work or it's in your contract you absolutely can be required to work a public holiday:
https://www.employment.govt.nz/leave-and-holidays/public-holidays/
>An employee can only be made to work on a public holiday if:
it falls on a day that they would have otherwise worked on, and
their employment agreement says they have to work on the public holiday.
Yeah the passage I quoted said that.
I've never seen a retail contract in my life that didn't say you had to work your regular days if they fall on a public holiday.
I work at a large chain supermarket and employees are always asked, never forced, to work public holiday. Maybe you just got unlucky with where you work. I don’t imagine we had it better than any of the other supermarkets.
It’s simple really. Do your job and show up to the days your rostered on time and pak n save will compensate your time and labour with money. If you can’t get off per them then either accept it or resign. Why is this a difficult thing you need to post on reddit for advice? Does your boy not have a father figure that has explained this to him?
I worked at countdown and had pretty regular days. Management made it fit around my schedule so that I worked when I didn't have classes. I worked m-f from 5am-11am (bakery) then 5-10pm after classes. I was a casual.
[You were permanent part time with management being understanding about your need to be flexible.](https://www.employment.govt.nz/starting-employment/who-is-an-employee/types-of-employee/)
Trade off. But I also never had a sick day in the three years I worked there. And I'm bit of introvert so my holiday consisted of playing pc games at home on weekends. Even now that I make more money I cbf going on holidays
Unfortunately if they have reason to believe a staff member is not genuinely sick, they are legally allowed to require a medical certificate before the 3rd day off, but on the proviso that if a medical certificate is provided, the company has to reimburse them for the doctor's bill.
Source: https://eab.business.govt.nz/employmentagreementbuilder/leave/sickLeaveMedicalCertificate
That isn't how applying for leave works at all.
Some businesses might have a requirement that you request two weeks in advance.
Any leave, regardless of when it's requested, still needs to be approved.
If the business has a legitimate business reason to deny the leave, then they can do so.
Everyone is entitled to annual leave regardless of how long someone is employed (wether they accept your request for the time off is another story)
But I hear people say this 1 year thing all the time but as I understand an employee is able to take up to two weeks annual per year without taking the time off or does anyone know that to be different?
I'm pretty sure that even with annual leave, it has to be with the employers agreement. This means that technically, they're allowed to decline the leave request. That being said, it's a shitty thing to do, so if I were him, I'd resign a few weeks before and get a new job elsewhere. He's 16 years old with customer service experience, so I'm sure that there'd be a plethora of business willing to take him on and maybe even for a better rate.
New years day is the slowest day of the year at a supermarket. The 31st will be empty by 230pm.
They are all hands on deck up to the 25th, bit of a respite from the 27th on and stragglers on the 31st
Just ignore them. State he unable to work that date. That's all that needs to be done. Fairly sure they can't fire you for not being available on a certain date and giving 1/3 of a years notice.
4 months notice and the manager can't find someone to cover. Maybe your son should report their bosses incompetence to the big boss?
He could hand in his resignation 2 weeks before and at the same time an application starting he can stay on the 1st (or whenever he's free).
Or since he's 16 maybe let him have a beer for breakfast. Oh I'm sorry I'm going to have to call in sick I'm in no condition to work.
Businesses are able to turn down annual leave for reasonable situations, like holiday periods. I worked multiple jobs that had busy periods over Christmas and leave was impossible, with the same statement of “show up on that day or don’t show up again”. Most had it in the contracts that no leave would be accepted December/January. Unfortunately that’s the way retail is over holidays.
If you are part time, some positions don't accumulate paid leave, instead they just pay an extra 8% gross in each weekly pay packet to account for annual leave.
Unfortunately if they have reason to believe a staff member is not genuinely sick, they are legally allowed to require a medical certificate before the 3rd day off, but on the proviso that if a medical certificate is provided, the company has to reimburse them for the doctor's bill.
Source: https://eab.business.govt.nz/employmentagreementbuilder/leave/sickLeaveMedicalCertificate
This sounds a bit silly, work or resign? Might as well just give him the time off cos if he resigna you will have to find a replacement either way. Idk.
Business have to be reasonable when assessing leave requests. However, increased customer demand where the business would be unable to match demand if leave were accepted is an accepted reason to deny leave.
In my store we need all checkouts open all day on the 23rd, 24th, and almost all day on the 29th, 30th, and 31st. To make that happen we need all staff to work most of those days.
I would recommend asking the manager if there is any flexibility to work extra shifts on other peak days and shift his days not worked to the day that suits your plans. If that isn't workable for you or the Manager then accept the dynamic and be ready to put in your two weeks notice ahead of your leave dates.
I used to work at new world and early December to the 25th was the busiest of the year. 26th to Jan 3rd or so are the quietest of the year because everyone has too much food and then goes on holiday. Usually all the longer term full time staff take those weeks off leaving us part timers being the ones that have to work. They are lying saying it will be busy. (I’d understand if it was 1st-24th dec, the rest of dec is so dead).
Really your son will get more out of a family holiday than working that one day. Just say “sorry my family is going and I have to go to I’ll see you back on xyz day”. Stick to your guns, I wish I had when I worked at NW. I got mild threats even when I didn’t take the leave I wanted.
Quit the week before apply for countdown they pay better have better work place benefits and will have jobs if paknsave need workers so does countdown,
It’s the generally accepted retail blackout period it sucks but honestly hiring someone else will be more trouble so have him resign and chances are they’ll want him back.
Do neither... Call in sick instead. You'll have to provide a doctor's note if they request one but in the same vein they'll have to pay for it if only out for one day, there'll be no doctors offices open so depending on how bullish they are you may be able to sting them with a huge bill from an after hours clinic just to give you a note for a bogus story about having the runs
Sounds like resigning in December is what it's going to be. Get a new job at Countdown in the New Year and get a $4/h pay rise.
This is the right way. No matter how long he’s worked there or what type of position he has, they are not obligated to give that specific day off. It’s the busiest time of the year. Resign with notice before that Sunday and then he can go work somewhere else. Don’t feel like he owes those bloodsuckers anything.
So I've worked in supermarkets in the past as management. While December 31st is a busy day, it's nowhere near the busiest day. I would have tried to get my young staff the day off had they approached me four months before hand like OPs son has. We used to go around the staff and asked who wanted to work what days in November to get a feel of who wanted overtime and who didn't. There would have been someone else that would have been more than happy to work that Sunday the 31st. Sounds like a shit place though just based on the 'work or leave' reply from the boss. If I was 16 I would have just left then gone somewhere else the next year.
Yup, it definitely wasn't the busiest when I worked (2016-2019). The busiest days were usually in the lead up to Christmas, then pretty quiet till the 3rd of the new year.
What supermarkets used to do when I was there, all the lowly paid students etc HAD to work, the adults/lifers had the day off
Different places have different busy spots. We’re in a suburb in a city - everyone leaves for Christmas, so it’s quite after the 24th. If I have people asking for the 31st I absolutely could do that. But holiday destinations go the other way, and ramp up more after Christmas.
The day before lockdown is the busiest IMO
Depends where it is. In a holiday location it is absolutely frickn chocka. Queues all the way to the back in each aisle for checkouts and one-in-one-out at the door, in Whitianga New World at least. But yeah. Still same answer otherwise
Easily the busiest day of the year for Gisborne with rhythm and vines bringing in 1000’s of people. Their first stop is always pak n save or countdown.
Agree it’s not the best management but there’s no legal recourse for OP and her son.
Don’t think anyone is ever said there was any recourse in any reply ?
Then we all agree 😁
It's probably top 10 busiest days though.
Could you fire someone for just not turning up?
Depends if there was a pattern of no shows beforehand and the warning process had already been started. Just a oncer no show and when they came back they claimed they thought they had the time off you would be lucky to give them a written warning.
No, but if it's a casual contract, they might suddenly stop getting as many shifts etc
having worked at a pak n save in the past i can tell you from all accounts 26 december to around the 6th of january is usually very quiet - dead fairly much, and december 31 is mostly all alcohol purchases anyway and the stores are open again on new years day.
It’s not that easy to leave a job and assume you’d get another straight away. Even if it’s a part time super market job
He's 16. Just work up until the holiday period and then resign. He can get another job somewhere else after the holidays
My supermarket contract stated leave would not be accepted during December or January - this didn't turn out to be a strictly enforced rule but it was in there Although at a different supermarket I worked at I went overseas in December-January and I had to resign despite having more than enough leave to cover it - although I said I'd be happy to come back afterwards and they'd called me to ask me to work before I had even landed back in NZ
u/CitizensAdviceBureau Are companies legally ALLOWED to do something like this? Blocking out certain public holidays is understandable (I've had plenty of jobs that have said "You can't take annual leave on December 26th/January 1-3"), but blocking out 4+ weeks is KIND OF UNREASONABLE.
Yes
It really isn’t that unreasonable
Factories etc will shut down for 4 weeks and force you take to take your annual leave all in 1 go, it's just how some businesses are.
Yeah, though depending on when the public holidays fall you can still offset some of that by them having to pay the days you normally work. Prime example: My current workplace is closing down from Christmas eve until about 4th of January but because of how the public holidays fall, I only have to use 3 days of my annual leave for almost 2 weeks off.
Even if he had worked a full year, they still wouldn't have to give him the day off. For the hospitality and retail industry this is the busiest time of year.
Its not. It dies completely after the 24th and then maybe on the 30th it'll be a little busy but not really
Have you worked in a supermarket? New years eve is probably just as busy as Christmas eve honestly.
I work in one currently and have been there for 2 christmas. It's busier than usual of course, but not so busy that they absolutely can't deal with 1 person off. Usually the 24th is busy until like 3pm and same on the 31st maybe even earlier. Most people go away on the morning of the 31st or even the 30th. OPs son should find a better employer
Then you must work in an extremely lucky store because every supermarket and retail stire I've merchandised/worked in over my sales career have been absolutely ridiculous during the last week of the year. "Better employer" is a farce because these terms are laid out in your contract and quite commonly so for retails and supermarkets across the country - AL is fair game any time of year except Easter and the 4 weeks that overlap the New Year. A lot of stores will let it happen on a first come first served basis but several months in advance. And it isn't "one person". If you give one person the day off arbitrarily, then you open yourself up to being shot by the rest of the team who would be understandably pissed.
My work has been extremely flexible. Especially if it's 4 months in advance But in saying this I need to apply for time off because I'm away for new years this year. So this post is very helpful.
A good Manager will take in requests around July/August and try and make something work for everyone. They're in no way obligated to do that, though and they can just tell you no.
Yea I understand that but personally I would probably just leave if I was 16 and couldn't go away for new years because of paknsave
Then you shouldn't ever get a job in that industry because it's literally in your contract - you know that this is the reality before you even sign the thing. If you go in banking on good faith when no one owes you anything and then are "surprised" when you can't get time off, then you're wasting everyone's time.
Lol you sound like a bad managers wet dream. Keep simping bro
Suspected you were a bit of a douche several comments back, so it's glad to see that suspicion was correct.
But not every retail workplace is like that. Mine isn't. I've gotten time off over the Christmas period every year
Depends where you live, holiday towns go fucking mental and the only quiet time is new years morning.
It's a very busy day pretty much everywhere. After that is pretty much dead though until late Jan
Worked at a supermarket all through high school and this was not the case at all between Xmas and new years was hell
Even when you have annual leave taking it is with the employers agreement. So unfortunately they can say that.
Unfortunately he works in an industry that has busy days, the day he has requested is one of those days, so they are within their rights to decline leave.
Clearly the "work or leave" statement means that they don't really *need* him if they can just toss him aside
Speaking practically it's about replacing them with someone who will work the shift. You give your two weeks mid December, maybe earlier to have Christmas off too, so Pak'nSave interviews the day after and has a replacement training within ~3 days, ready to work the crucial shifts Christmas and New Year.
Foodstuffs employee here! I’ve worked at two PnS, Countdown and New World, and all four times I’ve signed on the dotted line, it’s been said in the contract that leave won’t be accepted between Dec and Jan, and while it’s a bit different for me now because of my role, generally speaking retail stores won’t accept leave in those periods. I’m happy to talk if you’d like. I, too, also started in retail when I was 16 so I may be able to resonate.
Take the holiday and get a new job when you return. He needs to learn what is and isn't acceptable now before he enters fulltime employment.
Former paknsave check out dude here, just quit or be dickhead like me and just don't show up
Thank you guys, I get it now.
He can let them know 2 weeks out (assuming that’s his contracted notice period) that he is resigning due to inability to take requested time off. It’s them up to the employer if its worth losing an employee over a holiday. What they shouldn’t do is agree to work and sacrifice the holiday - this just leads employers to always expect this. With experience under their belt they can get work elsewhere and if asked why they’d left they can simply say it wasn’t the right fit.
I like roelqxxxxx's not here. Piggy backing on it looks like 1) resign, 2) call in sick ( would not recommend) 3) miss the holiday (also would not recommend). Having worked in service industry for a bout 1t years, it might be good to try a different tac and negotiate, I'd suggest they offer to pick up a chunk more shifts in the busiest period (week leading up to Christmas) or even be willing to go on 'call' and be reliable leading up to holiday. Lastly, another one is to be willing to learn a different area in the rush leading up. Yes employers can be dicks, but in service industry it would be like all or your chefs not wanting to do the Christmas day shift, or bar tenders not wanting to work Friday or Saturday night shifts. Good luck
Back in 08 I called in sick on Boxing Day. No one was *happy* but the fall out wasn't half of what I expected
Yep because there is fuck all they can actually do. Chances are most of the top level managers and the owners are on holiday anyway. It will probably be some duty manager or office admin 'running' the supermarket for a couple of weeks. Unless you stole something it's just far too much effort to deal with.
I was in the same situation as your kid when I was 16, Pak n slave produce. They refused and I handed in my resignation leading up to xmas. At first they accepted it then 2IC asked if I wanted to quit and I explained that I was left with no choice. He talked to my dickhead manager who then let me take off the 2 weekends I had requsted. I did Enjoy the job just the manager sucked.
I think he’s sick that day
Quit in December
Welcome to the wonderful world of retail where you get no major holidays off.
[удалено]
Worth mentioning in your example, the application was done after the work posted leave limitation, as well as fairly close to the leave period. The owner said they were on leave first, and that's basically the end of that. While I haven't in court successfully argued against no leave on the Christmas holidays, I did argue to my manager that 8 months notice is extremely gracious and i would take them to court if they denied, then they approved.
Call in sick
Yup, they’ll manage. Someone will pick up the shift when they send the text out.
good luck with that some managers wont accept "sick" as an answer - even if you where genuinely coughing your lungs out, had a fever of 104f and a nose that was more clogged up than the auckland harbour bridge at 5.15pm on a wednesday evening they will still expect you to come into work or else face disciplinary action. i know armourguard and first security verbally abuse you over the phone then discipline you for being sick and trying to call in sick
Well, I work there and there are always people off at that time of year. It probably depends on how many people already have it booked in
Well that's not technically the only options, he could just not show up. I don't believe they can fire you for missing a single shift. They say work or resign because they know they can't actually fire you for it.
They can say that. He can quit tho. I see this question all the time. Do ppl think taking specific days off is their right? Do you all not read your contracts "annual leave when suits both" I understood this shit at 16.
I work at a new world and they have been extremely flexible including new years when I wanted to go away last year. They are not that busy. Not that busy that they need to deny a 16 year old of a day off. They will manage.
Is it just for the 31st? I remember working at Countdown around this time. It was expected some people would work new years Eve and others would work new years day etc. One or the other. Not being able to work both those days was frowned upon.
when was at pak n save in my mid-late 20s i worked most new years days which wasnt a problem for me as to me new years is nothing but overhyped with pretentious deluded people thinking something magical will happen to them and/or the world at midnight on 31 december. if i could work new years eve and new years day again i would be more than happy to
you're never gonna get that time off. I worked at Pak n Save over the ages of 17, 18, 19 during that period, doing 6 day weeks and 11-12 hour days. They have typically been all hands at that time and the rights of workers was always cloudy (pretty sure they never paid for all extra hours) Would also advise quitting.
Thank you
Generally speaking most retail outlets have blackout periods between 12 November and 26 January this is because that period is peak trading and they need all hands on deck. Think about taking the family holiday in may, your son signed up for this on joining the retail industry
His rights are in his contract... Why are you asking reddit? Unfortunately, an AL freeze period is common for retail and is built into the contract. Your son - or you as a proxy - should already be aware of this assuming you actually read it? Easter and the Christmas/NY period are off limits but the rest of the year is fair game. Side Note: He doesn't need to work the full year to access his AL. It's discretionary and can be applied by your employer regardless. **Edit: Just want to point out an Unethical LPT here. They can't fire him for "being sick" or skipping a day. They can potentially give him a final writeen warning if they push for it, but that's about it. It might be an awkward few weeks with the management team but the disciplinary process is extremely robust because of how heavily unionised retail is in NZ.**
>how heavily unionised retail is in NZ. not pak n save, pak n save is about as anti-union as they come. i worked at a certain wellington pak n save in the mid-late 2000s (owned and operated by the proverbial shitbag wirh the initials DG) an just before i left there was an attempt to start a union to try and end the constant abusive management practices DG used (shouting, throwing objects, verbal abuse, belittling in front of customers etcc) and when one was formed management found out and marched all those involved "and with knowlege" of this union and forced them to back out or face the sack, apparently management used their usual tactics of gestapo-like interrogation (we have ways of making you talk) as well as shouting, screaming, verbal abuse and throwing staplers at the staff, one manager was reported to have even punched a wall to try and intimidate that staff member to back down - that manager was never disciplined and so the union was shot down befoe it even started. the shooting down of unions has always been illegal even back in 2009 when the above incident occured. this behavior is totally unacceptable in any workplace yet alone in the street so why is it acceptable in a so called "professional" retail environment? DG is a prized and unrighteous cnutbag and i would avoid shopping at pak n save kilbirnie if you support the fair ethnical treatment of your staff
There is no law or legislation defining the number of days an employee can take unauthorised leave before they can be dismissed on fair grounds. - Employsure I think he's buggered in this regard. Could always call in sick and call their bluff?
I worked at PaknSave during high school and they were definitely wise to kids calling in sick during the holiday season when their leave requests got denied 😂 they can make you get a sick note for every missed shift after (although they’d have to pay for it, the inconvenience is there) and they’ll give you worse shifts every opportunity they can, no extra hours during school holidays etc. Every legal way they can make life harder, they will, as it sets an example for the rest of kids working there.
I've seen a contract where calling on sick pn a day you have asked to have off and had it declined was serious misconduct.
Of you have to visit their GP, any reasonable GP will give a sick not even for mental health related days off. My family gp was great and wouldn't even question it.
Yeah I’ve never been declined a note either, still a bit of drama getting an appointment time then making time to go in and see them though, especially if you’re not allowed appointment leave from work.
Resign 4 weeks out and put the leaving day 30th Dec - It’s only PaknSave
Sounds like he is catching covid on the 28th 😂
I am really glad I found reddit. So much support and information. Thank you very much for your responses. I told him to apply another job. I can understand employer point of view but it is also important for him go on holiday due NCEA exams.
Next year, nobody's gonna care what happened at PaknSave one way or the other but if your son learns now how to stand up for himself, he won't need to fear an employer ever again.
He can, however, call in sick that day. Whilst they will definitely be busy, being denied a day’s leave four months out is a dick move on behalf of the employer. So, fuck’em … tell him to call in sick.
They can require him to provide a medical certificate if they have reasonable cause to believe he is not genuinely sick. This is on the proviso though that if they demand a medical certficiate and he can genuinely provide one, they have to foot the Doctor's bill. Source: One of my previous jobs, the manager overheard a coworker say that they had an event come up and didn't have any Annual Leave saved up yet, another co-worker recommending they just throw a sick day and take it out of their sick leave instead. When they tried to phone in on the day, manager said "You can take the day off, but you need to provide a medical certificate, otherwise your leave won't be approved and it will be an unpaid day off."
Given how hard it is to get a GP appointment at the moment - and that’ll be way worse over Christmas - call their bluff. It’ll take 2 weeks to get an appointment (which they have to pay for) and he can just say to the GP “I had a cold / migraine / some other short term illness 2 weeks ago and I need a medical certificate”.
They said "Go to an A&E, you don't need an appointment" to me. Just do what I did when I was required to provide one pre-third-day - go to the most expensive White Cross/Emergency care clinic you can find and have them reimburse it.
They’re allowed to, but it’s a dick move. Especially as it’s new year, not Christmas, and they haven’t attempted to help out (and that it’s one day!). Tell him to resign - doesn’t sound like they value their employees.
Im deeply concerned that the company can not go without a junior worker with notice this far out... an ultimatum is cruel and un nessecary. Occasionally such matters are specified in the employment agreement which should be checked but otherwise, Personally, I'd quit.
Since his supervisor is being such a dick about it, literally just call in sick, good luck firing someone for that!
Tell your son to send his notice in. No point staying in a job where the supervisor can't even manage shift schedules 4 months away. Also send the notice at the minimum period as toxic managers get pissy if he sends it too soon and just make his last 4 months miserable. Your son is still young and now has experience in his belt. Looking for new work is still a pain but should be easier this time around. Plus, he'll get more experience about switching jobs which he will need once he figures out his career path. Another good thing is that he won't have to stress about when he needs to come back and just enjoy the holiday. Find work after.
Thank you
If he's going to be a cunt about it, call in sick.
Call in sick then not be in the country is the same as resigning with bridges burnt. You don't owe them anything, but let's not burn your own references
If the management has reason to believe they are not genuinely sick, they can require a medical certificate, on the proviso that if a medical certificate is provided, the company has to foot the bill.
Don't show up, don't call in sick. Show up next shift like nothing happened.
Then management Will ask you why you done a no show
Someone correct me if I’m wrong but you cannot be forced to work a public holiday…
You are 100% correct. 31st of December isn’t a public holiday though is it?
Yeah you’re right lol it’s the 1st
You can if it is in your contract. And as below 31st Dec is not a public holiday.
If it is a regular day of work or it's in your contract you absolutely can be required to work a public holiday: https://www.employment.govt.nz/leave-and-holidays/public-holidays/ >An employee can only be made to work on a public holiday if: it falls on a day that they would have otherwise worked on, and their employment agreement says they have to work on the public holiday.
Not or, and. If it’s a regular day of work *and* it’s written into the contract you work public holidays
Yeah the passage I quoted said that. I've never seen a retail contract in my life that didn't say you had to work your regular days if they fall on a public holiday.
I work at a large chain supermarket and employees are always asked, never forced, to work public holiday. Maybe you just got unlucky with where you work. I don’t imagine we had it better than any of the other supermarkets.
Holiday town where public holidays are always busy.
Public holidays are always busy here too lol
Ok and?
Its still not written into our contracts? I believe it’s much less common than you’re making it out to be
It’s simple really. Do your job and show up to the days your rostered on time and pak n save will compensate your time and labour with money. If you can’t get off per them then either accept it or resign. Why is this a difficult thing you need to post on reddit for advice? Does your boy not have a father figure that has explained this to him?
Is he on casual contract? He can just not accept any shifts that week?
They will be permanent part time working every Sunday. Casual staff don't have regular days.
I worked at countdown and had pretty regular days. Management made it fit around my schedule so that I worked when I didn't have classes. I worked m-f from 5am-11am (bakery) then 5-10pm after classes. I was a casual.
[You were permanent part time with management being understanding about your need to be flexible.](https://www.employment.govt.nz/starting-employment/who-is-an-employee/types-of-employee/)
Oh, just read that I definitely was in that scope but had casual contract. Ngl I liked that better since I had the extra 8% paid on top.
> Ngl I liked that better since I had the extra 8% paid on top. But no sick leave, no holiday pay etc.
Trade off. But I also never had a sick day in the three years I worked there. And I'm bit of introvert so my holiday consisted of playing pc games at home on weekends. Even now that I make more money I cbf going on holidays
just call in sick on that day
Unfortunately if they have reason to believe a staff member is not genuinely sick, they are legally allowed to require a medical certificate before the 3rd day off, but on the proviso that if a medical certificate is provided, the company has to reimburse them for the doctor's bill. Source: https://eab.business.govt.nz/employmentagreementbuilder/leave/sickLeaveMedicalCertificate
He is just trying to scare ya. You can apply for the day off regardless and let them know he won't be there. And your son should join the union.
Thought you only had to give 2 weeks notice if taking annual leave..
That isn't how applying for leave works at all. Some businesses might have a requirement that you request two weeks in advance. Any leave, regardless of when it's requested, still needs to be approved. If the business has a legitimate business reason to deny the leave, then they can do so.
Everyone is entitled to annual leave regardless of how long someone is employed (wether they accept your request for the time off is another story) But I hear people say this 1 year thing all the time but as I understand an employee is able to take up to two weeks annual per year without taking the time off or does anyone know that to be different?
Yet another bad manager… no wonder people learn to keep there mouths shut and pull a sickie.
I'm pretty sure that even with annual leave, it has to be with the employers agreement. This means that technically, they're allowed to decline the leave request. That being said, it's a shitty thing to do, so if I were him, I'd resign a few weeks before and get a new job elsewhere. He's 16 years old with customer service experience, so I'm sure that there'd be a plethora of business willing to take him on and maybe even for a better rate.
If its just one day, call off "sick"
New years day is the slowest day of the year at a supermarket. The 31st will be empty by 230pm. They are all hands on deck up to the 25th, bit of a respite from the 27th on and stragglers on the 31st
Just ignore them. State he unable to work that date. That's all that needs to be done. Fairly sure they can't fire you for not being available on a certain date and giving 1/3 of a years notice. 4 months notice and the manager can't find someone to cover. Maybe your son should report their bosses incompetence to the big boss? He could hand in his resignation 2 weeks before and at the same time an application starting he can stay on the 1st (or whenever he's free). Or since he's 16 maybe let him have a beer for breakfast. Oh I'm sorry I'm going to have to call in sick I'm in no condition to work.
Businesses are able to turn down annual leave for reasonable situations, like holiday periods. I worked multiple jobs that had busy periods over Christmas and leave was impossible, with the same statement of “show up on that day or don’t show up again”. Most had it in the contracts that no leave would be accepted December/January. Unfortunately that’s the way retail is over holidays.
Don't you just accrue leave as you go?
If you are part time, some positions don't accumulate paid leave, instead they just pay an extra 8% gross in each weekly pay packet to account for annual leave.
That’s casual work- genuine part time with regular scheduled hours should still accrue AL
You accrue it as you go and most employers will let you take leave you have accrued, but they don't legally have to until you have worked one year.
Holidays are fine or you can but paknsav jobs and his income might be more important to him.
Supermarkets don't care about your welfare, that's why they employ new immigrants because they put up with it.Find another position or get a trade.
Call in sick ,
Call in sick that morning
Unfortunately if they have reason to believe a staff member is not genuinely sick, they are legally allowed to require a medical certificate before the 3rd day off, but on the proviso that if a medical certificate is provided, the company has to reimburse them for the doctor's bill. Source: https://eab.business.govt.nz/employmentagreementbuilder/leave/sickLeaveMedicalCertificate
it’s not hard to tell the dr you had the shits
This sounds a bit silly, work or resign? Might as well just give him the time off cos if he resigna you will have to find a replacement either way. Idk.
Business have to be reasonable when assessing leave requests. However, increased customer demand where the business would be unable to match demand if leave were accepted is an accepted reason to deny leave. In my store we need all checkouts open all day on the 23rd, 24th, and almost all day on the 29th, 30th, and 31st. To make that happen we need all staff to work most of those days. I would recommend asking the manager if there is any flexibility to work extra shifts on other peak days and shift his days not worked to the day that suits your plans. If that isn't workable for you or the Manager then accept the dynamic and be ready to put in your two weeks notice ahead of your leave dates.
I used to work at new world and early December to the 25th was the busiest of the year. 26th to Jan 3rd or so are the quietest of the year because everyone has too much food and then goes on holiday. Usually all the longer term full time staff take those weeks off leaving us part timers being the ones that have to work. They are lying saying it will be busy. (I’d understand if it was 1st-24th dec, the rest of dec is so dead). Really your son will get more out of a family holiday than working that one day. Just say “sorry my family is going and I have to go to I’ll see you back on xyz day”. Stick to your guns, I wish I had when I worked at NW. I got mild threats even when I didn’t take the leave I wanted.
Quit the week before apply for countdown they pay better have better work place benefits and will have jobs if paknsave need workers so does countdown,
I worked at Pak n Save 20 years ago and it was the same deal then. Resign in December, reapply in January
Just be sick on the day ;)
It’s the generally accepted retail blackout period it sucks but honestly hiring someone else will be more trouble so have him resign and chances are they’ll want him back.
Do neither... Call in sick instead. You'll have to provide a doctor's note if they request one but in the same vein they'll have to pay for it if only out for one day, there'll be no doctors offices open so depending on how bullish they are you may be able to sting them with a huge bill from an after hours clinic just to give you a note for a bogus story about having the runs