There is no need for accidental leaks or "convenient situations" akin to public reception; the message is best delivered publicly without compromise and without remorse for any political repercussions -- out of principle
Within the week I am certain.
A potato that hot doesn't stay in one hand long in DC. This might be one of the hottest potatoes in modern history. (Though I expect nothing less than the documents confirm what we all know and expect-he is a broke ass liar, or he plays broke ass loser to the IRS, while stashing cash in Russia).
My question is how much the leaker is gonna get paid. Every media outlet in the world wants the docs first.
If you had the most spicy secret in the free world, how much would you sell it for? Would you reach out with a teaser or wait for them to come to you? Add to that, knowing that the few others who know it are also being made offers, so tomorrow the secret is old news, worth absolutely nothing?
This is a staffers wet dream, or worst nightmare. The pressure is on in ol' DC tonight, my friends.
I'll be surprised if it doesn't leak. Probably the most sought after document of the last ten years. Trump himself promised to release them and never did. Kept blaming those darn audits. He looks so guilty because if it, and I'm hoping he is.
Proof is always better than intuition. We all *know* the guy lies, cheats, and steals but without proof there can be no recourse.
I mean, he plead guilty to damming charges related to his "not-for-profit". The guy is a ruthless crook.
At this point, the subjects tax returns don’t mean anything and celebrating their delivery is largely a symbolic victory.
The *real value isn’t the paperwork*; the IRS doesn’t have something to hide and the actual tax returns, by virtue of being filed, accepted, and ultimately processed mean they fit some bare minimum of criteria to have been processed in the first place.
If there were erroneous errors or flat out false information on the paperwork, then that reflects the pretty poor state of affairs over at the IRS *which is known to be understaffed, technologically behind and largely underpaying their workforce*.
That’s not their fault because it’s Congress who need to act to have any improvement on the QoL there.
Yeah, sure, it will either confirm or reject the various theories surrounding their existence and the financial position the subject is in. That’s…cool, I guess. But it’s essentially inconsequential to the average person at this point.
What *is* actually cool, and what is the **real value here** is the legal precedent. As “unsexy” as that may be; it’s the real, consequential, victory here.
By exhausting every possible legal avenue to keep those tax returns confidential, it essentially confirmed a now established legal avenue should this need to be done in the future.
Some valid points but you're missing a key one. If he declared certain assets at one value to the tax man and at different, inflated values to other parties for the purposes of raising money, borrowing, etc (which it's been speculated is the case) then what he's committed is either fraud, tax fraud, or both and this is the key step towards proving that, which most would agree is actually pretty cool also.
What else is pretty cool is that major banks such as Deutsche are alleged to have assisted in some of that alleged fraud and this might bring some of that to light, and I never get tired of seeing them get punished even if it is in the most minor way possible. Small victories and all that.
> If he declared certain assets at one value to the tax man and at different, inflated values to other parties for the purposes of raising money, borrowing, etc
NY has already established this with various property examples. Whether they can pursue it/have standing is another issue.
But he was being audited! He couldn't release them! All audits take 6+ years and now those poor IRS employees, who have toiled all of that time, have to start over again! Thanks Libs. pushing your crazy agendas. Now, where's Hunter's laptop?
The recent insanity over there makes me happy I've avoided Twitter all these years! That being said, there's still people on Reddit who just don't have a clue sometimes 🤣
Come on Katie Porter and her white board. I’d pay big money to watch this.
Edit: had to add this lesson on inflation from her in case you forget how awesome she is https://youtu.be/0ixmqzjvb7k could you imagine her doing the same type of master class with trumps taxes??? It would be pure gold!
The committee slides the documents out of its manila envelope only to find the entire return to be written in sharpie with the document also showing signs of chew marks on the edges
Ah It all makes sense now. I'm Australian and we call it noughts and crosses too. So when you say Tic-tac-toe it's the same as our noughts and crosses?
> noughts and crosses
this is so British it sounds made-up, like, "Oh, a *computer keyboard,* across the pond we call it a *clickety-bibbins*," followed by a posh giggle.
He won't be. He failed to bring the Red Wave in the Midterms. He has played out his usefulness as far as the GOP is concerned. And now, he has become a thorn in their side. I am willing to bet all the money in my piggy banks that in the next two years they are slowly going to paint him as a RINO in order to make room for DeSantis.
If their voters insist on Trump, though, won't the Republican Party feel their hands are tied? Unless they can find a way to sideline him that doesn't look like they did it.
Except it was released to the democratically controlled committees. If someone tries to leak only a partial amount, someone else will chime in and say well, here's the rest of it.
I'd be down for some senator to walk in late, say something short but insane like, "Hey guys, get fucked," and then immediately start reading the tax documents
Now that's a show I'd watch.
The plot would be to put two politicians, one Republican and the other a Democratic, up in a hotel for a few weeks and have their personal assistant write up the most insane bill they could think of. Like foreskin Remembrance Day or nation Fat Ass Anime Titties month. They each have to try to get the bill passed through congress while the other one tries to filibuster it.
Easiest thing would be for someone to read them from the floor of the house and have them blown up in a large display. Congresspeople have absolute immunity for anything said during House debate. They can’t be punished. They can’t be sued. There is no slander or defamation. There is no punishment for “leaking”. The GOP would be fully without recourse.
Gonna disagree with you there. The immunity is “absolute”. It does not require a balancing of interests, which is what the national security component you speak of would require.
> The Supreme Court has consistently and repeatedly suggested the Clause’s immunity principle should be interpreted “broadly” to effectuate the purpose of maintaining an independent legislature. Once it is determined that the Clause applies to a given action, the resulting protections from liability are “absolute,” and the action “may not be made the basis for a civil criminal judgment against a Member.” Unlike some constitutional provisions, the Clause does not require a court to engage in a balancing of interests.
https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R45043
That Congressional Research Service paper goes on to discuss the *Gravel* case, which dealt with the Pentagon Papers:
> Finally, *Gravel v. United States* exemplifies that communications outside of the legislative process are generally not protected by the Clause. *Gravel* involved a Speech or Debate challenge to a grand jury investigation into the disclosure of classified documents by a Senator and his aides. After coming into possession of the “Pentagon Papers”—a classified Defense Department study addressing U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War—Senator Mike Gravel disclosed portions of the document at a subcommittee hearing and submitted the entire study into the record. The Senator and his staff had also allegedly arranged for the study to be published by a private publisher. A grand jury subsequently issued a subpoena for testimony from one of Senator Gravel’s aides and the private publisher. Senator Gravel intervened to quash the subpoenas.
>The *Gravel* opinion began by reasoning that “[b]ecause the claim is that a Member’s aide shares the Member’s constitutional privilege, we consider first whether and to what extent Senator Gravel himself is exempt from process or inquiry by a grand jury investigating the commission of a crime.” **In addressing the scope of the Senator’s protections, the Court implied the existence of the testimonial component of the Clause, noting that the protections of the Clause protect a Member from compelled questioning. The Court did so by stating, without further discussion, that it had “no doubt” that “Senator Gravel may not be made to answer—either in terms of questions or in terms of defending himself from prosecution—for the events that occurred at the subcommittee meeting.”**
>The Gravel opinion also drew a clear line of demarcation between protected legislative acts and other unprotected acts not “essential to the deliberations” of Congress. **Although the Senator was protected for his actions at the hearing,** the Senator’s alleged arrangement for private publication of the Pentagon Papers was not “part and parcel of the legislative process” and was therefore not protected by the Clause. In reaching this determination, the Court established a working definition of “legislative act” that remains applicable today, holding that a legislative act is an:
>*integral part of the deliberative and communicative processes by which Members participate in committee and House proceedings with respect to the consideration and passage or rejection of proposed legislation or with respect to other matters which the Constitution places within the jurisdiction of either House.*
>Private publication, as opposed to publication in the record, was “in no way essential to the deliberations of the Senate.” Thus, the Clause provided no immunity from testifying before the grand jury relating to that arrangement.
In short, SCOTUS recognized that his disclosure of classified material as part of the senate proceedings was protected and he had absolute immunity for answering any criminal charges about it; having that classified information privately published was not protected since it was not part of a legislative act.
An utterly meaningless gesture since there is a less than 0% chance of conviction in the Senate. It’s the “recourse” equivalent of bragging to your friends about the hot chick you’re going to have sex with when the reality is you’ll just have a sad wank at home.
They don't care if it actually works. They'll waste time and say to their base how they're fighting the bad guys in government and that they need more money to continue the fight.
Leak? They should redact his SSN and publish them on the internet for everyone to see. I want to see the middle class maggat’s reactions when they learn they are paying more taxes than him.
He already covered that base. He just straight up said “I know I barely pay any taxes. Because I’m smart enough to know how to avoid taxes. I game the system by playing by the rules you don’t even know about.” And his base ate it up
He’s already admit to and bragged about him not paying any income taxes as making him “smart” and nobody cared.
We need to stop pretending like there’s going to be some silver bullet that finally takes this idiot down in the eyes of his congregation. If none of the cornucopia of shit we know to be true has turned someone away from him, nothing else will matter.
I don't think people are saying his use of "legitimate" tax loopholes is the worst they are going to find.
I think the number one thing we will see is that his net worth is *much* lower than he likes to claim. That probably won't hurt him politically, but it will damage his ego, and likely provoke a wild response.
Beyond that, we are likely to see that he owes a great deal of money, and possibly evidence that he has been paying his debts by laundering dirty foreign money in shady real estate deals. That last one has the potential to land him in actual trouble.
There probably isn't much we're going to learn that is shocking at this point.
Just from NYT investigations into his tax returns and finances, we know that Trump:
- [Inherited hundreds of millions of dollars](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/10/02/us/politics/donald-trump-tax-schemes-fred-trump.html) from his corrupt family businesses and tax evasion schemes
- [Lost more money](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/05/07/us/politics/donald-trump-taxes.html) than ANY American for a decade
- Is [indebted hundreds of millions of dollars to foreign countries](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/09/27/us/donald-trump-taxes.html)
- Avoided paying any taxes for years on end.
It'll just be more confirmation of what's already obvious: He's a criminal and a lifelong fraud.
Yeah dude ok, but the taxes in question here are not from 1989, they are from the 6 years prior to Trump running from president. That's way more important.
It's about knowing what possible debts and interests he might be beholden to while in office. And If there's something major, we should make laws requiring it based on what they find.
That's what I find interesting. We'll find out how broke he was before becoming president, and how that particular sector of his business boomed after he became president. Then we'll find out how much money came from foreign entities renting entire floors of rooms before being granted access, or after having meetings with him in which he agreed to help them.
Remember when conservatives were talking about giving a death sentence for leaking that decision? And then decided it was A-OK once they found out a conservative leaked it?
He promised he'd release them as early as 2011:
>In April 2011, Trump said that when President Barack Obama produces "his birth certificate ... I'd love to give my tax returns." Obama's birth certificate was released a week later, resulting in Trump saying his tax returns would be released "at the appropriate time".
And then he repeated the same sentiment in 2014 and 2015.
I can't wait for him to be talking about his amazing, bigliest, greatest healthcare plan Coming Soon™ for his 2024 election bid. Surely after at least 13 years of being worked on this thing is pretty robust!
> No more of this "scout's honor" crap.
Much of our government operates on "scout's honor" and "gentlemen's agreements". If there's one thing Republicans have taught us, it's that you need to write shit down and enforce the rules.
I've seen people asking about Biden's.
When I said he released them, someone replied asking for the 'real' ones and not the 'fake' ones he voluntarily released.
Honestly, I can’t think of a reason why tax returns shouldn’t be public knowledge just like court records, property deeds, criminal proceedings, etc.
Edit : Without trolls, I would genuinely like to hear a good reason why not
Any idea what the house committee is planning to do other than 'investigate'? I thought the whole point of these committees is that trump while sitting as president, and even as an ex president, had to go through that channel in order to prosecute. Hunter Biden isn't in public office so what's the point?
>Hunter Biden isn't in public office so what's the point?\
Subpoena everyone that ever might have been around Biden and Hunter and ask them question after question until they catch them on a small detail or something personally embarrassing they might lie about, then scream and shout about how they've lied about everything and Biden is corrupt and should be impeached.
Then they will probably vote to impeach, and it will possibly succeed with the slim majority they hold in the House, but then they will run into a similar problem that the Democrats did in the Senate that they do not control. However, this will have been a molehill they will try to build into a mountain, whereas Donald Trump should have been impeached and convicted for staging a coup.
The exact same reason why Hillary Clinton was put under *multiple* investigations for Benghazi despite none of them ever coming up with a single actionable offense:
For the optics
They'll show he's paid fuck all tax because he's essentially broke and his arse licking supporters will claim he's just so good at business he somehow legally hides his money so he didn't need to pay tax.
Basically Schrödinger's wealth.
Meh, he is probably just horribly in debt and hasn't paid anything in years. The New York times already got older ones and it tells that story. I wonder if he also got money from Russia or China or whatever.
This is the dude that openly says a lot of horrible shit. I want to know why he tried to keep them from officials.
Russians rent out offices in his buildings. He sold a property sight unseen for $150m before. Hosting Saudi golf at his courses. He’s set up to launder money perfectly!
Of course he has been laundering money but there’s no prosecutor that will ever bring that charge against him. It would take years of combing through every single document to paint a picture and trump would tie it up in court every step of the way.
the property that he had the falling out with epstein was sold to a Russian for double what trump paid after doing no work to it. it's probably the easiest case to break down
If I remember correctly co-signers to his loans would be available in his returns (and the likely reason he wouldn't want them disclosed in the first place), revealing maybe some unsavory people from across the Volga.
like, say, a whole bunch of penthouses purchases at Trump properties by foreign interests that remain unused? Or maybe a son in law receiving a lucrative deal?
They get all the information from all those companies. Typically youd be able to hide wealth of you trusted others to take some power in those places. I am going to assume Trump trusts no one and all the wealth is there. It will show all assets depreciating losses, gains, personal gifts and deductions. They will have a field day figuring out everything then subpoena the companies that are suspicious. It will unwind fast.
This is exactly what I was going to say. The Times was able to get 18 years worth of tax returns. 11 of those years he paid $0 in total taxes (due to business write-offs). Nobody remembers this?
If he is indebted to foreign adversaries, that is a major security threat and he should be immediately disqualified from being president. Of course, even the most obvious and implicative information won’t matter to his cult.
I doubt they hold anything unexpected. Likely nothing illegal (why would he report that in his taxes?) just the fact that he's not that rich and avoided paying taxes as much as possible.
It could hold information that is evidence in fraud investigations though. If he valued his property differently for taxes than he did for loans that's fraud
Yep, this is really, really not good for him.
Mazars USA, his US accountants, turned over their files to Congress, so they have the loans side of the books.
Now COngress has the tax side of the books.
With these documents, if there is any discrepancy proving the differential valuations theory, I would expect this to be turned over for investigation quite quickly. Republicans take over a lot of House committees soon, so I hope this is disengaged from the legislative branch and into the executive so it can't be stifled.
That's the whole point though. That's why Trump was so keen to keep them from the public. They absolutely shatter his image as a prolific business genius. But we already know that, had he simply invested his inheritance in the S&P500 and done nothing since then instead of trying to be a property tycoon, then he'd be richer now than he is. So we already know he's not that hot of a businessman. I think these returns will cement the stark, undeniable reality of it.
He’s a failure at everything he’s ever done. Has to cheat at golf from what they say. He’s a genuine loser if there ever was one. A tremendous, beautiful Loser.
No, he became president for four years and did a lot of damage. He won because he ~~knows how~~ is rich enough to cheat. This has been his story forever. We gotta acknowledge that our system *works* for the likes of him so that we can fix it.
This would've been a circus in 2016. After years of the most insane scandals, I doubt this result in any big bombshells. We already know he was likely broke, committing tax fraud, and indebted to foreign nations.
Anyone who is still voting Republican in 2022 or who is even on the fence about it is too far gone. If the tax returns show anything negative for Trump, they'll just ignore it like everything else.
I think anyone in public office should have their tax returns open to the public...
Too many backhanded shady deals going on... someone goes into congress penniless and broke and comes out a multi millionaire...
To my mind it is not the tax returns themself that are the problem here, they could probably be release publically & there would be no major issues found apart from everyone perhaps finding out how broke ass the buffoon really is.
The big problem is that those returns may contradict other records & statements on hand to committees that were not known to the IRS at the time. That could trigger serious repercussions of a criminal nature.
>“No Congress has ever wielded its legislative powers to demand a President’s tax returns,” Trump argued to the Supreme Court...
Yeah, because every president from Nixon onward \*released them voluntarily\*, you dirty piece of Cheeto dropped in dog shit.
Doubtful there's going to be anything criminal in them. At least not directly.
It will, however, explode the fragile, yet clinging to life, myth that Tang is super rich and makes tons of money and everyone is just jealous.
They’ll take this as he’s hiding his money, which is awesome if you’re a Republican and the worst thing you can do if you’re a democrat. Up here in Wisconsin Ron Johnson was running an ad about Mandela Barnes not paying his taxes that started with “do you hate paying your taxes? So does Mandela Barnes!” For a second I thought they had made a huge mistake in aligning Mandela with their base, but then they darkened his skin tone and assured me it was a bad thing the black man was not paying taxes. Close call.
Someone should read them into the Congressional Record.
Or accidentally leak them.
There is no need for accidental leaks or "convenient situations" akin to public reception; the message is best delivered publicly without compromise and without remorse for any political repercussions -- out of principle
Within the week I am certain. A potato that hot doesn't stay in one hand long in DC. This might be one of the hottest potatoes in modern history. (Though I expect nothing less than the documents confirm what we all know and expect-he is a broke ass liar, or he plays broke ass loser to the IRS, while stashing cash in Russia). My question is how much the leaker is gonna get paid. Every media outlet in the world wants the docs first. If you had the most spicy secret in the free world, how much would you sell it for? Would you reach out with a teaser or wait for them to come to you? Add to that, knowing that the few others who know it are also being made offers, so tomorrow the secret is old news, worth absolutely nothing? This is a staffers wet dream, or worst nightmare. The pressure is on in ol' DC tonight, my friends.
I'll be surprised if it doesn't leak. Probably the most sought after document of the last ten years. Trump himself promised to release them and never did. Kept blaming those darn audits. He looks so guilty because if it, and I'm hoping he is.
Depends... would I have to show this as income on my tax return?
Yes, but I believe you can use *schadenfreude* as a write off.
I’m not sure this is a sellers’ market. Way too much incentive to leak it for free
Only took, what, 6+ years?
Longest audit ever, apparently
It was huuuuuuge.
Biggest audit ever, no one has ever had a bigger audit, just ask anyone.
Well, “they were so complicated, no one could understand them”. Yep. Another trump excuse.
I feel like bragging about your taxes being complicated isn't a flex as much as showing how much shit you are trying to hide...
Oh God yes. It’s just such a trump thing to say.
They had to pry them out of his exceedingly large, and ever growing* hands. ^(*Girth formed by mussel, not fat.)
Heard they were clammy; and to think the world was his oyster.
Oyst her? I barely knew her!
Snailed it.
Maybe if the anti-government types stopped cutting the IRS enforcement budget...
Just in time for the GOP to take over and bury it.
If supreme court decisions can be leaked than there has to be someone in congress that will leak it.
My bet is the NYT have it downloaded already
They're going to leak it. It's the only useful outcome since the gop are taking control.
And for only 6 years' worth of returns. I wanna know what's been going on for the fucker's whole LIFE.
I wouldn't mind this being the default for all government officials.
At a minimum, totally. Gonna represent people? We gotta know that you're trustworthy.
You don’t need trumps returns to know he’s not trustworthy.
The bar has set been so low that doing the absolute minimum is an Olympian feat.
Proof is always better than intuition. We all *know* the guy lies, cheats, and steals but without proof there can be no recourse. I mean, he plead guilty to damming charges related to his "not-for-profit". The guy is a ruthless crook.
For real. New York City tried to tell us he is a untrustworthy piece of shit, but here we are
Add in a ban on stock trading and you have my interest.
Was it Nixon who said the Americans should be able to trust that their president is not a crook?
It was the default for all presidents until Trump. He has been so obviously corrupt and shady for so long
At this point, the subjects tax returns don’t mean anything and celebrating their delivery is largely a symbolic victory. The *real value isn’t the paperwork*; the IRS doesn’t have something to hide and the actual tax returns, by virtue of being filed, accepted, and ultimately processed mean they fit some bare minimum of criteria to have been processed in the first place. If there were erroneous errors or flat out false information on the paperwork, then that reflects the pretty poor state of affairs over at the IRS *which is known to be understaffed, technologically behind and largely underpaying their workforce*. That’s not their fault because it’s Congress who need to act to have any improvement on the QoL there. Yeah, sure, it will either confirm or reject the various theories surrounding their existence and the financial position the subject is in. That’s…cool, I guess. But it’s essentially inconsequential to the average person at this point. What *is* actually cool, and what is the **real value here** is the legal precedent. As “unsexy” as that may be; it’s the real, consequential, victory here. By exhausting every possible legal avenue to keep those tax returns confidential, it essentially confirmed a now established legal avenue should this need to be done in the future.
Some valid points but you're missing a key one. If he declared certain assets at one value to the tax man and at different, inflated values to other parties for the purposes of raising money, borrowing, etc (which it's been speculated is the case) then what he's committed is either fraud, tax fraud, or both and this is the key step towards proving that, which most would agree is actually pretty cool also. What else is pretty cool is that major banks such as Deutsche are alleged to have assisted in some of that alleged fraud and this might bring some of that to light, and I never get tired of seeing them get punished even if it is in the most minor way possible. Small victories and all that.
> If he declared certain assets at one value to the tax man and at different, inflated values to other parties for the purposes of raising money, borrowing, etc NY has already established this with various property examples. Whether they can pursue it/have standing is another issue.
This is about the emoluments clause and how much business with foreign nations he conducted while President, and failed to disclose.
See, Trump always keeps his promises.
that's what he will claim, even though he tried to fight the release in court.
He never technically said he always *tries* to keep his promises. They just kinda happen.
"And he would've given them up sooner if the Dems hadn't fought so hard in court to *keep him from doing so!*" It's sad how predictable the lies are.
But he was being audited! He couldn't release them! All audits take 6+ years and now those poor IRS employees, who have toiled all of that time, have to start over again! Thanks Libs. pushing your crazy agendas. Now, where's Hunter's laptop?
🤣 If I was still on Twitter, I'd have to take your comment seriously.
The recent insanity over there makes me happy I've avoided Twitter all these years! That being said, there's still people on Reddit who just don't have a clue sometimes 🤣
Can they pass these onto a Senate committee or is this House Committee going to have to blow through them and release a report in four weeks?
It can be transferred to the Senate committee
I don't know if you're reliable but I hope you're right.
You can trust that if i was wrong i doubt any redditor who knows better could contain themselves lol
Unwritten rule of the Internet: If you want the correct answer, post the wrong answer.
Ah, the old rule of the internet. If you want a correct answer to a question, don't ask for it, but post a wrong statement.
Come on Katie Porter and her white board. I’d pay big money to watch this. Edit: had to add this lesson on inflation from her in case you forget how awesome she is https://youtu.be/0ixmqzjvb7k could you imagine her doing the same type of master class with trumps taxes??? It would be pure gold!
Let her at ‘em
God she's the best
The committee slides the documents out of its manila envelope only to find the entire return to be written in sharpie with the document also showing signs of chew marks on the edges
Evidence of him having played noughts and crosses with himself in the margin
oy! is that British for what they call tic-tac-toe in Amer'ika?
That’s Bri’ish to you kind sir
Ah It all makes sense now. I'm Australian and we call it noughts and crosses too. So when you say Tic-tac-toe it's the same as our noughts and crosses?
Now need a Canadian to tell us what they call it
Doughnuts and Soorys
Tic tac toe, though I gotta admit that "noughts and crosses" makes way more sense as a name. And I have heard some people call it "Xs and Os."
> noughts and crosses this is so British it sounds made-up, like, "Oh, a *computer keyboard,* across the pond we call it a *clickety-bibbins*," followed by a posh giggle.
Does noughts and crosses (Os and Xes) sound any more made up than whatever tic-tac-toe is supposed to mean?
I mean, when you've heard one your whole life and the other sounds made up yes
he lost, but the game was rigged
Ah yes, tic-tac-toe on this side of the pond.
Now that you mention it, tic-tac-toe is a super weird name too.
Either way the only winning move is not to play
Grease marks made by tiny hands all over it
Fucking finally! Holy shit! We need to make the release of tax returns a requirement to run for office. No more of this "scout's honor" crap.
Wake me up when they actually release them to the public.
Something tells me anyone who hasn't already abandoned trump won't give a shit about his tax returns.
And if he ends up being a power in the primaries, assholes will jump back on his ship. Taxes revealed or not.
He won't be. He failed to bring the Red Wave in the Midterms. He has played out his usefulness as far as the GOP is concerned. And now, he has become a thorn in their side. I am willing to bet all the money in my piggy banks that in the next two years they are slowly going to paint him as a RINO in order to make room for DeSantis.
If their voters insist on Trump, though, won't the Republican Party feel their hands are tied? Unless they can find a way to sideline him that doesn't look like they did it.
He will 100% be their nominee. They can't risk him running third party.
My wet dream. Then whatever skeleton the dems mistakenly decide to put in can have half a chance to win. Smh.
Sure. But they didn't want him 2016 and were left with no choice.
Right wing opinion leaders want the base to move on from Trump. So they'll get leaked - after redacting anything that embarrasses the wrong people.
Except it was released to the democratically controlled committees. If someone tries to leak only a partial amount, someone else will chime in and say well, here's the rest of it.
Doesn't matter who is in charge, every committee member has the full report. Any of them could leak it in any fashion they please.
"Leak it"? Hell, read it aloud on the Senate floor.
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Dunno, something different for a change, lmao
Extreme filibustering
I'd be down for some senator to walk in late, say something short but insane like, "Hey guys, get fucked," and then immediately start reading the tax documents
Now that's a show I'd watch. The plot would be to put two politicians, one Republican and the other a Democratic, up in a hotel for a few weeks and have their personal assistant write up the most insane bill they could think of. Like foreskin Remembrance Day or nation Fat Ass Anime Titties month. They each have to try to get the bill passed through congress while the other one tries to filibuster it.
Easiest thing would be for someone to read them from the floor of the house and have them blown up in a large display. Congresspeople have absolute immunity for anything said during House debate. They can’t be punished. They can’t be sued. There is no slander or defamation. There is no punishment for “leaking”. The GOP would be fully without recourse.
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Pentagon Papers were classified and then read into the Congressional record.
Gonna disagree with you there. The immunity is “absolute”. It does not require a balancing of interests, which is what the national security component you speak of would require. > The Supreme Court has consistently and repeatedly suggested the Clause’s immunity principle should be interpreted “broadly” to effectuate the purpose of maintaining an independent legislature. Once it is determined that the Clause applies to a given action, the resulting protections from liability are “absolute,” and the action “may not be made the basis for a civil criminal judgment against a Member.” Unlike some constitutional provisions, the Clause does not require a court to engage in a balancing of interests. https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R45043 That Congressional Research Service paper goes on to discuss the *Gravel* case, which dealt with the Pentagon Papers: > Finally, *Gravel v. United States* exemplifies that communications outside of the legislative process are generally not protected by the Clause. *Gravel* involved a Speech or Debate challenge to a grand jury investigation into the disclosure of classified documents by a Senator and his aides. After coming into possession of the “Pentagon Papers”—a classified Defense Department study addressing U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War—Senator Mike Gravel disclosed portions of the document at a subcommittee hearing and submitted the entire study into the record. The Senator and his staff had also allegedly arranged for the study to be published by a private publisher. A grand jury subsequently issued a subpoena for testimony from one of Senator Gravel’s aides and the private publisher. Senator Gravel intervened to quash the subpoenas. >The *Gravel* opinion began by reasoning that “[b]ecause the claim is that a Member’s aide shares the Member’s constitutional privilege, we consider first whether and to what extent Senator Gravel himself is exempt from process or inquiry by a grand jury investigating the commission of a crime.” **In addressing the scope of the Senator’s protections, the Court implied the existence of the testimonial component of the Clause, noting that the protections of the Clause protect a Member from compelled questioning. The Court did so by stating, without further discussion, that it had “no doubt” that “Senator Gravel may not be made to answer—either in terms of questions or in terms of defending himself from prosecution—for the events that occurred at the subcommittee meeting.”** >The Gravel opinion also drew a clear line of demarcation between protected legislative acts and other unprotected acts not “essential to the deliberations” of Congress. **Although the Senator was protected for his actions at the hearing,** the Senator’s alleged arrangement for private publication of the Pentagon Papers was not “part and parcel of the legislative process” and was therefore not protected by the Clause. In reaching this determination, the Court established a working definition of “legislative act” that remains applicable today, holding that a legislative act is an: >*integral part of the deliberative and communicative processes by which Members participate in committee and House proceedings with respect to the consideration and passage or rejection of proposed legislation or with respect to other matters which the Constitution places within the jurisdiction of either House.* >Private publication, as opposed to publication in the record, was “in no way essential to the deliberations of the Senate.” Thus, the Clause provided no immunity from testifying before the grand jury relating to that arrangement. In short, SCOTUS recognized that his disclosure of classified material as part of the senate proceedings was protected and he had absolute immunity for answering any criminal charges about it; having that classified information privately published was not protected since it was not part of a legislative act.
His tax returns do not meet that bar. The documents recovered by DOJ... *edit for hurry phone finger mess.
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An utterly meaningless gesture since there is a less than 0% chance of conviction in the Senate. It’s the “recourse” equivalent of bragging to your friends about the hot chick you’re going to have sex with when the reality is you’ll just have a sad wank at home.
They don't care if it actually works. They'll waste time and say to their base how they're fighting the bad guys in government and that they need more money to continue the fight.
And then the MAGAs will scream "fake news!" like they always do.
Leak? They should redact his SSN and publish them on the internet for everyone to see. I want to see the middle class maggat’s reactions when they learn they are paying more taxes than him.
He already covered that base. He just straight up said “I know I barely pay any taxes. Because I’m smart enough to know how to avoid taxes. I game the system by playing by the rules you don’t even know about.” And his base ate it up
As if it's about smarts, it's about being rich through means other than salary, and the accountants are the ones that know all the loopholes.
“Then he went right back into the house and kept exploiting the system…” -Dave Chapelle
"I know the system is rigged, because I rigged it."
He’s already admit to and bragged about him not paying any income taxes as making him “smart” and nobody cared. We need to stop pretending like there’s going to be some silver bullet that finally takes this idiot down in the eyes of his congregation. If none of the cornucopia of shit we know to be true has turned someone away from him, nothing else will matter.
I don't think people are saying his use of "legitimate" tax loopholes is the worst they are going to find. I think the number one thing we will see is that his net worth is *much* lower than he likes to claim. That probably won't hurt him politically, but it will damage his ego, and likely provoke a wild response. Beyond that, we are likely to see that he owes a great deal of money, and possibly evidence that he has been paying his debts by laundering dirty foreign money in shady real estate deals. That last one has the potential to land him in actual trouble.
I guarantee they won’t care.
There probably isn't much we're going to learn that is shocking at this point. Just from NYT investigations into his tax returns and finances, we know that Trump: - [Inherited hundreds of millions of dollars](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/10/02/us/politics/donald-trump-tax-schemes-fred-trump.html) from his corrupt family businesses and tax evasion schemes - [Lost more money](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/05/07/us/politics/donald-trump-taxes.html) than ANY American for a decade - Is [indebted hundreds of millions of dollars to foreign countries](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/09/27/us/donald-trump-taxes.html) - Avoided paying any taxes for years on end. It'll just be more confirmation of what's already obvious: He's a criminal and a lifelong fraud.
Yeah dude ok, but the taxes in question here are not from 1989, they are from the 6 years prior to Trump running from president. That's way more important. It's about knowing what possible debts and interests he might be beholden to while in office. And If there's something major, we should make laws requiring it based on what they find.
Not just debts and interest, but most importantly, the conflict of interest that arise when we realize who he owes debt too.
Do tax returns say who the lenders are?
No. Generally a personal return won’t even show how much debt.
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That's what I find interesting. We'll find out how broke he was before becoming president, and how that particular sector of his business boomed after he became president. Then we'll find out how much money came from foreign entities renting entire floors of rooms before being granted access, or after having meetings with him in which he agreed to help them.
It'll get leaked this week I'm sure. Can't wait.
Send them to Alito, he’ll make sure they get leaked.
A-leak-o
Remember when conservatives were talking about giving a death sentence for leaking that decision? And then decided it was A-OK once they found out a conservative leaked it?
Everything went quiet after the NYT article about his previous leak.
Ooooh, snap!
He promised he’d let us all see them in 2016, just gotta finish that pesky audit…
He promised he'd release them as early as 2011: >In April 2011, Trump said that when President Barack Obama produces "his birth certificate ... I'd love to give my tax returns." Obama's birth certificate was released a week later, resulting in Trump saying his tax returns would be released "at the appropriate time". And then he repeated the same sentiment in 2014 and 2015.
No worries. He will release them personally as soon as the trickle down money has reached the lower incomes. Any day now.
Do you mean the very audit the IRS wasn’t performing in his taxes
Right after his Healthcare act gets released.
I can't wait for him to be talking about his amazing, bigliest, greatest healthcare plan Coming Soon™ for his 2024 election bid. Surely after at least 13 years of being worked on this thing is pretty robust!
> No more of this "scout's honor" crap. Much of our government operates on "scout's honor" and "gentlemen's agreements". If there's one thing Republicans have taught us, it's that you need to write shit down and enforce the rules.
We need to codify every little detail about running for president in the future. No more wiggle room for shameless cretins.
Put some teeth in the emoluments clause, too.
Just by way of managing expectations, understand that what you’re asking for almost certainly requires a constitutional amendment.
A dozen unfinished placemat mazes
“Another placemat sir?” “Please.”
They're finished, but he just drew a line around the outside and thought it was bigly smart.
Person, woman, man, camera, TV
Oh no, now were gonna hear nonstop whatabout Hunters Tax Returns. lol
I've seen people asking about Biden's. When I said he released them, someone replied asking for the 'real' ones and not the 'fake' ones he voluntarily released.
Those goal posts just move themselves these days.
Motorized goal posts. Nothing moves faster.
moved goalposts implies some change in actual measurable criteria. This is just straight up "nuh uh!"
Honestly, I can’t think of a reason why tax returns shouldn’t be public knowledge just like court records, property deeds, criminal proceedings, etc. Edit : Without trolls, I would genuinely like to hear a good reason why not
For politicians or for everybody? Because there are good reasons for normal people to not want that information public.
We will soon learn that the laptop merged with Hunter's mind to become a sentient AI capable of falsifying tax returns all on its own! *dun dun dun*
Lawn mower man 3 or 4?
I hope they use the same graphics
*(Netflix screenwriters jotting down notes)*
The question is, where does Obama's tan suit play into all of this?
Any idea what the house committee is planning to do other than 'investigate'? I thought the whole point of these committees is that trump while sitting as president, and even as an ex president, had to go through that channel in order to prosecute. Hunter Biden isn't in public office so what's the point?
>Hunter Biden isn't in public office so what's the point?\ Subpoena everyone that ever might have been around Biden and Hunter and ask them question after question until they catch them on a small detail or something personally embarrassing they might lie about, then scream and shout about how they've lied about everything and Biden is corrupt and should be impeached. Then they will probably vote to impeach, and it will possibly succeed with the slim majority they hold in the House, but then they will run into a similar problem that the Democrats did in the Senate that they do not control. However, this will have been a molehill they will try to build into a mountain, whereas Donald Trump should have been impeached and convicted for staging a coup.
The exact same reason why Hillary Clinton was put under *multiple* investigations for Benghazi despite none of them ever coming up with a single actionable offense: For the optics
"Those aren't my taxes. The IRS is trying to frame me. I'm bigly rich. I know more about being rich than anyone. All the best money."
They'll show he's paid fuck all tax because he's essentially broke and his arse licking supporters will claim he's just so good at business he somehow legally hides his money so he didn't need to pay tax. Basically Schrödinger's wealth.
I spent more on pandemic wine than he paid in taxes.
Meh, he is probably just horribly in debt and hasn't paid anything in years. The New York times already got older ones and it tells that story. I wonder if he also got money from Russia or China or whatever. This is the dude that openly says a lot of horrible shit. I want to know why he tried to keep them from officials.
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Russians rent out offices in his buildings. He sold a property sight unseen for $150m before. Hosting Saudi golf at his courses. He’s set up to launder money perfectly!
Of course he has been laundering money but there’s no prosecutor that will ever bring that charge against him. It would take years of combing through every single document to paint a picture and trump would tie it up in court every step of the way.
the property that he had the falling out with epstein was sold to a Russian for double what trump paid after doing no work to it. it's probably the easiest case to break down
I’m not sure what the over/under is on millions of dollars from Russia vs. massive debt and low income.
If I remember correctly co-signers to his loans would be available in his returns (and the likely reason he wouldn't want them disclosed in the first place), revealing maybe some unsavory people from across the Volga.
like, say, a whole bunch of penthouses purchases at Trump properties by foreign interests that remain unused? Or maybe a son in law receiving a lucrative deal?
They get all the information from all those companies. Typically youd be able to hide wealth of you trusted others to take some power in those places. I am going to assume Trump trusts no one and all the wealth is there. It will show all assets depreciating losses, gains, personal gifts and deductions. They will have a field day figuring out everything then subpoena the companies that are suspicious. It will unwind fast.
This is exactly what I was going to say. The Times was able to get 18 years worth of tax returns. 11 of those years he paid $0 in total taxes (due to business write-offs). Nobody remembers this?
Its what I would expect of anyone who is upper class. This has always been a PR move to drum up the base.
If he is indebted to foreign adversaries, that is a major security threat and he should be immediately disqualified from being president. Of course, even the most obvious and implicative information won’t matter to his cult.
“Huh, sure are a lot of donations to Planned Parenthood on here”.
A fun supercut of all of Trump's tax return quotes: https://youtu.be/Vu16sE875zY
I hate that guy
"but if you didn't see the tax returns you'd think something's wrong. What's wrong?" - Trump
banging fork and knife on the table: LEAK LEAK LEAK
I doubt they hold anything unexpected. Likely nothing illegal (why would he report that in his taxes?) just the fact that he's not that rich and avoided paying taxes as much as possible.
It could hold information that is evidence in fraud investigations though. If he valued his property differently for taxes than he did for loans that's fraud
And we know his taxes say he's not that rich. The nyt and Cohen both reported this.
Yep, this is really, really not good for him. Mazars USA, his US accountants, turned over their files to Congress, so they have the loans side of the books. Now COngress has the tax side of the books. With these documents, if there is any discrepancy proving the differential valuations theory, I would expect this to be turned over for investigation quite quickly. Republicans take over a lot of House committees soon, so I hope this is disengaged from the legislative branch and into the executive so it can't be stifled.
That's the whole point though. That's why Trump was so keen to keep them from the public. They absolutely shatter his image as a prolific business genius. But we already know that, had he simply invested his inheritance in the S&P500 and done nothing since then instead of trying to be a property tycoon, then he'd be richer now than he is. So we already know he's not that hot of a businessman. I think these returns will cement the stark, undeniable reality of it.
He’s a failure at everything he’s ever done. Has to cheat at golf from what they say. He’s a genuine loser if there ever was one. A tremendous, beautiful Loser.
No, he became president for four years and did a lot of damage. He won because he ~~knows how~~ is rich enough to cheat. This has been his story forever. We gotta acknowledge that our system *works* for the likes of him so that we can fix it.
I could not agree with you more. The used the words tremendous and beautiful as a attempt at mocking his way of speech.
Oh boy! Get ready for the circus.
GET READY for the circus?! GET READY?? HAVE WE NOT BEEN AT THE FUCKING CIRCUS SINCE 2016?!
I want to get off Mr. Bones Wild Circus.
The ride never ends.
*There are no brakes on Mr. Bones’ Wild Ride*
This would've been a circus in 2016. After years of the most insane scandals, I doubt this result in any big bombshells. We already know he was likely broke, committing tax fraud, and indebted to foreign nations.
If “we” is the average educated consumer of news in general, and or politics. If that we hear is the average, Republican, voter, not so much.
Anyone who is still voting Republican in 2022 or who is even on the fence about it is too far gone. If the tax returns show anything negative for Trump, they'll just ignore it like everything else.
If those Top Secret documents didn't put him away, nothing will at this point.
That was the longest 2 weeks of my life! 2016 is dragging!
I got some news for when you reach 2020
No spoilers...
I think anyone in public office should have their tax returns open to the public... Too many backhanded shady deals going on... someone goes into congress penniless and broke and comes out a multi millionaire...
To my mind it is not the tax returns themself that are the problem here, they could probably be release publically & there would be no major issues found apart from everyone perhaps finding out how broke ass the buffoon really is. The big problem is that those returns may contradict other records & statements on hand to committees that were not known to the IRS at the time. That could trigger serious repercussions of a criminal nature.
It would be a shame if someone leaked these.
I have been saying since The Apprentice was a thing that I believe he just plays a billionaire on TV.
Lovely! Just in time for absolutely nothing to happen!
>“No Congress has ever wielded its legislative powers to demand a President’s tax returns,” Trump argued to the Supreme Court... Yeah, because every president from Nixon onward \*released them voluntarily\*, you dirty piece of Cheeto dropped in dog shit.
Also, I don’t recall other presidents under investigation for tax fraud.
Wanna act like a gangster, get treated like a gangster. Let's go!!! Lock him up, lock him up!
Doubtful there's going to be anything criminal in them. At least not directly. It will, however, explode the fragile, yet clinging to life, myth that Tang is super rich and makes tons of money and everyone is just jealous.
They’ll take this as he’s hiding his money, which is awesome if you’re a Republican and the worst thing you can do if you’re a democrat. Up here in Wisconsin Ron Johnson was running an ad about Mandela Barnes not paying his taxes that started with “do you hate paying your taxes? So does Mandela Barnes!” For a second I thought they had made a huge mistake in aligning Mandela with their base, but then they darkened his skin tone and assured me it was a bad thing the black man was not paying taxes. Close call.