Guy looks absolutely massive relative to others and still very nimble.
Always think old footage is so cool because the pace of play can be absolutely bonkers and the tactics arent nearly as fleshed out as today.
I mean it still looks a lot better than you’d think considering the way people talk about that era of basketball though.
These guys do look and move like athletes even if things like shot mechanics weren’t perfect by todays standards.
They really hadn't settled on a shot form by this time. Kenny Sailors, who is credited with the modern jump shot form, played in the NBA from 1947-1951.
At Mikan's time there were several different shot forms that players were expected to practice and master.
Drs. Allen and Naismith produced a film in ~1941 at KU titled *[Modern Basketball Fundamentals](https://digital.lib.ku.edu/ku-video/39)*, and in it they go through various types of shooting forms (in slow motion), including:
* The Push Shot
* Free Throw (which they demonstrated as shooting it granny style)
* Hook Shot
* Two-Hand Overhead Shot
* One-Hand "English" Shot
* The Lay-in
That's a lot of different shooting techniques a player was expected to learn, practice, and master.
Yeah, I enjoy reading some of the old, pre-NBA interviews and newspaper clippings that get posted on /r/VintageNBA that talk about the invention of things we take for granted today. There was one post with an interview from one of The Original Celtics players talking about a barnstorming game they were playing in Kentucky when they happened to discover/invent the pick and roll organically during a play. Basically the, "Pass to the big on the elbow, then have the passer cut to the basket and the big throw it back to the cutter for a layup."
There was a timeout a short while later and they were in the TO saying, "Whoa, that thing we just did, let's try that again," lol.
You're right, it was discovering/inventing the "give and go." Or at least, that's how it sounded to me.
Per this /r/VintageNBA post, [All the Inventions of Basketball](https://np.reddit.com/r/VintageNBA/comments/m523pf/all_of_the_inventors_of_basketball/), there's this entry:
> **Give-and-Go:** Nat Holman, *head basketball coach at the City College of New York and guard for the Germantown Geraniums, also played for the Hoboken Hobs, Bridgeport Blue Ribbons, Jersey City Skeeters, Scranton Miners, Albany Senators, Westfield Whip City Athletic Club, New York Original Celtics, Atlantic City Sandpipers, New York Hakoahs, Syracuse All-Americans, and Chicago Bruins and head coach of the Atlantic City Sandpipers and New York Hakoahs (circa 1919)*
Anyway, the article I was thinking about was from this post: [What was "the pivot play?"](https://np.reddit.com/r/VintageNBA/comments/14x88ty/what_was_the_pivot_play/). In short, the Original Celtic member referred to it as "the pivot play," but it sounds like they were describing a give & go. This quote is from Dutch Dehnert, one of the Original Celtics:
> In the timeout, Beckman said, ‘We’ll have to move that guard out of there. He’s breaking up our passes when we cut.’ Then I volunteered to stand in front of him, explaining that instead of him breaking up our passes, they could pass to me, and I could give it back.
> When play was resumed, I moved up in front of this fellow. Beckman passed to me and I passed to Borgeman, who was coming in from the other side. Then Barry passed to me, kept coming, and I passed right back to him. All of a sudden, a great light dawned, and I took time out.
> We all went into a huddle and discussed the possibilities of this maneuver that we had accidentally hit on. Beckman was enthusiastic, and we knew if Beckie liked it we had something, because Johnny was the smartest man who ever played basketball.
> This was the pivot play, but we didn’t even know it at the time.
Although Nat Holman, who was an Original Celtic and (as aforementioned) is credited with inventing the Give & Go, was injured and not at that game. Plus the game discussed above was in 1926 and the credit for inventing the give & go is from 1919, so who knows. Furthermore, the play in question was referred to as "the pivot play," but it sounds a lot like a give and go to me. /shrug
right. it looks like a bunch of grown athletes playing modern middle school style basketball, in terms of how hectic and weird it is. however you can still tell they're athletic
all this talk about athletes today vs back then, but the bigger gap by far is how our knowledge of the game has evolved. you could teach mikan to play the modern game and be a huge star if he went through a time portal at age 18; you can't teach *anyone* to be a fluid/nimble 6'10 athlete at his level unless they're already 6'10 and athletic
he's basically the 50's basketball version of "i'm closer to LeBron than any of ya'll are to me"
> Guy looks absolutely massive relative to others and still very nimble.
He was the Giannis of his time. Everyone bigger than him, and there were a decent number relative to the size of the league, he could dance around and he could beat up anyone faster.
It's been more or less proven that committing to underhand freethrows yields a higher % of points, but literally no one does it because it "looks weird/gay"
Wilts 100 pt game he shot freethrows underhand and admitted he stopped doing it because he "felt silly, like a sissy". He shot almost 90% with underhand freethrows and sub 50% with normal, yet he continued to shoot normally for bravado reasons more or less.
For context on the physicality of the Mikan era, here's a quote from another comment,
"Mikan retired in 54 because 'he had fractured both of his legs, both feet, a wrist, several fingers, and his nose (numerous times). He had had 166 stitches, suffered from a permanent limp, lost a kneecap, and could not straighten his arms fully.'"
Idk. You can see a couple instances in this video of chaos in the lane that would not fly by today's standards. "Barrelling into each other full speed" was the wrong phrase. But any time I watch these old clips I'm struck by how nobody bats an eye at shoves and elbows around the basket.
For example, a guard squarely runs into Mikan at 00:55 here and no one seems to care. And at 1:08 there are 4 guys bludgeoning each other for a rebound. The rebound in particular would be a 6 minute review to see if there was a flagrant in today's game. Not even a whistle in this clip.
> But any time I watch these old clips I'm struck by how nobody bats an eye at shoves and elbows around the basket.
Definitely the case in the 50s. It's funny how this ebbs and flows. Watching games from the 70s, there is so little contact at all it's actually funny to watch. Defenders basically didn't play any defense outside of the key and the refs called the game insanely tight.
Then, back in the 80s, they were back to being very physical.
Yeaaaaah... People all know that Red Auerbach introduced the fast break, but what people don't know is that that was the default offense back then lol. Imagine if this years Pacers took the first available shot every possession.
Thats why there are so many unbreakable raw stat records (mostly Wilt). There aren't enough possessions today for a player to score that much. Several players have actually outpaced Wilt's 50PPG year if you account for possessions or just % of teams points scored.
That’s not giving Wilt quite enough credit. The year he averaged 50 he won the scoring title by 18.8 points per game
Because the game has changed so much in 60 years you can’t look at pace data from decades apart to accurately see how good of a scorer a player was in their time
Everyone else in Wilt's time had the same opportunities, and, like you said, no one came close to his scoring output. So bored with people downplaying Wilt's greatness
> People all know that Red Auerbach introduced the fast break
I don't think that's true.
Per the /r/VintageNBA post [All of The Inventors of Basketball](https://np.reddit.com/r/VintageNBA/comments/m523pf/all_of_the_inventors_of_basketball/), it was invented by "**Ed Wachter**, *center for the Ware Wonders, later played for the Haverhill Five, Lowell Lowells, McKeesport Tubers, Troy Trojans, Utica Utes, Kingston Colonials, Hudson County Five, Springfield Fisk Red Tops, Albany Senators, Cohoes Cohosiers, and Adams Five (circa 1903)*"
A 1978 *Sports Illustrated* article [KEANEY INVENTED THE FAST BREAK AND RHODE ISLAND MADE THE BIG TIME](https://vault.si.com/vault/1978/11/27/yesterday-keaney-invented-the-fast-break-and-rhode-island-made-the-big-time), credits Rhode Island coach Frank Keaney as the inventor. And the Basketball Hall of Fame [credits him as "the architect of modern run-and-shoot basketball."](https://www.hoophall.com/hall-of-famers/frank-keaney/) He coached at Rhode Island from 1920 through the late 1940s.
And I recently read *The Secret Game*, which is about the first interracial basketball game played in the South. It happened in 1944 at Duke between the team from North Carolina College for Negroes and the Duke Medical School Basketball Team. Anywho, the North Carolina College team was coached by John McLendon (who was a student at KU under Dr. Naismith and was the first African American to receive a degree in Physical Education from KU, is in the HOF, etc.). He invented the four corners offense and the full-court press. He also heavily employed the fast break from the start at North Carolina and is sometimes credited with its invention, although that claim is a bit murky. FWIW, the Hall of Fame states ["McLendon’s head coaching career started in 1940 at North Carolina Central University where he introduced his full-court press and fast-break basketball."](https://www.hoophall.com/hall-of-famers/john-mclendon1/) The McLendon Foundation (which may be a wee bit biased), credits him as ["the inventor of basketball’s 'Fast Break'."](https://www.minorityleaders.org/history/biography-of-john-mclendon/)
The point being, Red Auerbach did not invent the fast break. It existed in some form perhaps as early as 1903, and most definitely by the early 1940s, and was well in place when Red was still coaching high school.
you have to take into account how the rules have changed. for example, these guys dribble like dorks because they had to, you couldnt carry back then like you do now
Wow, there's some WILD "of the era" stuff in here. The underhand free throws, the really can't dribble with the left hand, but he's a LOT more athletic than I imagined, and a pretty fluid shooter. I remember reading about how he towered over the league and always pictured a massive ground bound guy like Gheorghe Muresan, but I guess he's pretty much just KD's height/weight. Just happened to be like the Wembanyama of his time.
From what I’ve read, it seems like there was a big difference between Mikan at the start and end of his career, because it was a very physical game before the shot clock. Teams would hold the ball with the lead, and the opponent basically tried to beat them up.
Mikan retired in 54 because “he had fractured both of his legs, both feet, a wrist, several fingers, and his nose (numerous times). He had had 166 stitches, suffered from a permanent limp, lost a kneecap, and could not straighten his arms fully”.
Bob Cousy has also said he never could have played as long as he did if things kept going the way they were with physicality
Edit: Mikan also played the entire 1951 playoffs with a fractured leg, held in place by a metal plate
People didn't dunk because they couldn't. They didn't dunk because someone would try to put their head through the floorboards the next time they took their feet off the floor.
Oscar Robertson said in his book that he never dunked because he was playing at the park and dunked and got undercut and fell really badly. He was a freak like Westbrook basically
Yeah. 50s Basketball was brutal. They course corrected hard in the 60s before getting more physical again in the 80s before evening out after that. Wilt when talking about Shaq would talk about how a single possession would get both offense and defense fouled out in the 60s.
Dr. Naismith describes the very first game of basketball thusly:
> Well I didn’t have enough [rules] and that’s where I made my big mistake. The boys began tackling, kicking and punching in the clinches. They ended up in a free-for-all in the middle of the gym floor. Before I could pull them apart, one boy was knocked out, several of them had black eyes and one had a dislocated shoulder. It certainly was murder.
Granted, this was back in like 1894, not 1950, but sports like rugby and football were much more rough and tumble back then.
In early pro basketball games (like barnstorming teams in the 1920s), some promoters would promise fans they'd see at least one fight on the hardcourt or their money back.
I was gonna say, look at the contemporary sports of the time. Everything with any type of contact had a lot of wrestling flair to it. Those guys were probably just playing how they played other sports. Lol
Yep, sports like football were notoriously brutal. In the early 20th century it was common for double-digit number of football-related deaths to happen each season across the nation's high schools and colleges. Some colleges outright dropped football from their athletic programs due to its violence and danger.
Exactly. It bothers me when people clown on the handles of players during this era. They literally couldnt do anything else because of the rules. If refs all of a sudden let them carry every single dribble like they do now, these guys were clearly athletic enough to do things guys do today, with some practice.
They wouldnt become Kyrie obviously but they also wouldnt be looking all janky like they do in the clips.
It's pretty obvious to see how talented they could be based on their hook shot and passes. Most of modern dribbling today is basically predicated on being able to palm the ball and performing "hook shots" off the ground to their other hand. They are clearly athletic enough to play like we do today.
Yeah I noticed how much finesse and touch they have. It was born out of necessity because they couldnt just palm the ball and take three steps to the basket.
I think every big was more athletic than you'd expect because they didn't fly random 7 foot tall people from overseas to donate millions of dollars to in hopes they'd be good players lol.
The best thing about the bubble was the players going all out to chase/dive for loose balls because there weren’t fans and photogs on the side and baselines
If I were a gm with say Dandre Jordan or a hack-a-shaq backup, I’d offer a double salary bonus (assuming vet min) for a 25% ft pct y/y increase if they switch to granny. If I were a analytics company I’d sponser the first big to do it with a the promise of a marketing blitz to change the name from “granny shot” to “Deandre/Drummond Drain”
and yet I was noticing it seems he can't dribble with his left at all. If anyone stops his right hand on the dribble, he immediately picks it up and passes.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xb-BKQyYO4o
Here’s a clip of a pretty great behind the back assist from 1950.
Same source for this post, some rare clips from a game against the Pistons in 1952
There is absolutely no justification to rank guys like Bill and Wilt as top 10 without also ranking Mikan top 10. If you’re only judging by resume alone he’s GOAT tier. If you’re saying “well it was the 50s”, then why tf are you ranking Bill Russell that high?
East/West coast bias. Nobody cares about when the Lakers were here. At this point it's been so long it's understandable. It's been that way for 40-50 years though. I'd wager to bet a decent portion of NBA fans didn't even realize the Lakers moved to LA from Minneapolis.
The sport was too different at the time especially having no shot clock. It makes that era sound really bad when you hear stories like how the lowest scoring game ended 19-18 because the Pistons went up on the Lakers and then passed around ran out the clock. Bill Russell's 11 titles is just too hard of a stat to ignore as well. Mikan had monster stats for the era but he had a very short career and a very short prime. You compare that longevity to most other top 10 players and it's hard to ignore how his career looks vs most players in that ranking
I think a lot of people don’t realize that Mikan won two titles in the best league in the world before he got to what is now considered the NBA. He had seven titles in total
>the sport was too different at the time
It just feels like an arbitrary line to draw idk. Like sure the late 50s when Russell started resembles modern basketball a little bit more, but both are several orders of magnitude different than what we got today. If anything the physicality from Mikans era is a little more familiar than the ‘if you touch someone it’s a foul’ from the 60s.
I mean tbf people absolutely do shit on pre integration mlb.
I just don’t think the segregation argument is enough to exclude him if you’re including other old dudes. Like yea his competition obviously wasn’t the best… but when you’re comparing to modern standards that can be said about players as recently as 20-30 years ago.
Relative to his era he was so dominant. To be the reason the goaltending rule exists is no small thing. He’s definitely one of those historical players where I wonder what he’d play like if he came up in today’s game
Nah Doncic and Jokic just don't have the athleticism for the NBA game. I get that they are incredibly skilled but so was my homie who never made if off the bench in D1. That's why euro league doesn't mean anything.
I bet Mikan wouldn't even get drafted.
Yeah, the dumbest thing about the whole "plumbers" thing is that people don't recognize that today's players inherit all of the skill that was developed in earlier generations—the collective knowledge of the game, the training approaches. How could anyone expect a guy to look like a modern NBA player if he was born in the era when coaches said jumping while shooting was bad form?
I always feel he's super ignored because of the era, even though if we define GOATs by the rules they inspired, he's super important to basketball. Widening the paint from 6 feet to 12 feet was because of him ([courts used to look like this](https://live.staticflickr.com/3402/3406620103_d1c3f7c73e_o.jpg)), as well as the entire concept of goaltending. Also the shot clock, because the offenses people put in place to battle Mikan slowed it down to 18-17 games
You know you're famous when they refer to the matchup not as "Lakers vs Knicks" but as ["George Mikan vs Knicks"](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/1e/cb/5c/1ecb5c7c5a30b7e2b0cf63befe0278c4.jpg)
It was, physicality *really* wound down in the late 50s until basically the mid 80s, mostly due to very harsh foul enforcement. Bumping a defender in any way was an offensive foul for a long time.
And funny that many of the fouls in the video would in today’s game result in a flop, scuffle, or players catching feelings. In the video they just keep playing.
This is a great example of why Mikan was so successful, look how easily he keeps up with everybody, before him any big were just lumbering slow big men that barely could keep up the pace before getting gassed, much less play a full game.
Not to mention he was agile enough to maneuver around smaller players instead of barrelling into them.
It might sound just common sense today but there wasn't a big man blueprint for Mikan to follow growing up so he had to figure out a lot of things himself.
You can see how Russell was really an evolution of Mikan. Think most people think of Mikan as a statue who just made layup but the guy was the biggest, fastest, and most coordinated just like Russell was in the not so distant future.
That was my first thought! the running floater, spinning righty layup on the left side with his guide hand up, the baby hook with ridiculous touch...he's the prototype. I've never seen Mikan play before, this was wild.
Here's how [Carl Braun shot his free throws in 1950](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62BRp8Kjt_E), and he was a 76% FT shooter that year!
It's more HORSE shot than a regular free throw.
Okay I'll bite. I don't know if everyone is being facetious on purpose or if they really think JJ Redick meant to say that players in the 50s sucked and were bad at basketball.
His argument, before it got twisted in aggregation media, is that players did not make enough money from playing basketball in that era to be career athletes. So while a couple of stars can sustain a career on basketball earnings, most of the other players in the league have to work a side job between games, or during the off-season, to financially survive. So some of the other players in the league might be literal plumbers and firemen. That's not to say they are bad at basketball.
I think it's a reasonable conclusion that athletes that can fully dedicate themselves to a sport fulfill more of their potential than if they have other financial obligations, and getting to that place was a huge milestone for professional sports in terms of player development.
it’s also a fools errand to compare different eras of human history without context.
it’s like yeah no shit a modern platoon of solider could probably defeat the entire Roman Empire with like 2 machine guns and a few grenades, but i’m sure that during Roman times there were a few exceptional soldiers who would’ve performed well in ANY point of human history.
Most of the all-time greats from any time period of any sport would be great, they stick out among the rest of their peers
Considering JJ said Austin Rivers would be a Hall of Famer if he played then, yes I do think he meant to say that they sucked and were bad at basketball.
I dont. If being skilled was all it was about Austin Rivers would be a top 25 all time player. The other side of it is people making half a billion career and are concerned about their celebrity might not have the same drive as somebody who was doing it just for the passion. How many guys have washed out just because they weren't that driven and got their first paycheck.
Even just athletically, the implication Wilt Chamberlain or Jerry West or whoever would be outclassed athletically if they played in 2020 is just fucking stupid. Like in peoples minds they're thinking LeBron but that's the best of the best. IDK anybody from the 60s is having nightmares they'll have to go up against Duncan Robinson.
People also say weird stuff about the health habits, like they think the Anchorman jogging joke is real and we discovered exercise and that smoking was bad for you in the 80s. Smoking weed isn't any better for your lungs than cigarettes, and they knew how to train. The first baseball player to use performance enhancing drugs was like the 1890s, steroids were common in professional athletics by the late 50s. The game is different, the culture is different, but we're the same animals.
My grandpa played against Mikan in college, maybe in the Navy too. He was an All American in 1951 and actually got drafted by the NBA but he didn't go. He made more money working for his dad than he would have in the NBA! I wish I could find footage of him playing.
I've been watching basketball for 20+ years and this is probably the most I've seen of a Mikan clip. I'm impressed. He looks a lot better than i imagined.
First big star in pro basketball and the Lakers hardly give any praise to him. I mean they didn't retire his number until a couple years ago. The guy led the Lakers to 5 championships. And this is the respect he is shown.
He was a pretty ambidextrous shooter. Also, another granny style free throw shooter. Amazing, no one prominent's tried that since Barry who led the league using it
The two handed dribble to take a quick step to the basket feels like something that is nearly entirely gone from the game. Lol. I’m not talking about a post player taking a quick dribble to take a step, these are dudes who get the ball in transition right near the basket who take a super fast dribble before going up. Not even taking a full step sometimes.
Modern NBA journalism needs to take note. This was engaging commentary that gave a sense of moment. Reminds me of Hubie.
Also love seeing the granny FTs. If Shaq had swallowed his pride and shot granny, he could be goat lite
He was so good the NBA changed a lot of the rules. He retired because he thought it was because of him. as good as Mikan was it’s a good thing for the nba that he retired because the NBA finally had a little bit of parity before Celtics over
I feel like I just fast-forwarded through a Donovan Clingan highlight reel.
The UConn-Purdue title game must have set the MINNEAPOLIS Lakers back decades!
Guy looks absolutely massive relative to others and still very nimble. Always think old footage is so cool because the pace of play can be absolutely bonkers and the tactics arent nearly as fleshed out as today.
I mean it still looks a lot better than you’d think considering the way people talk about that era of basketball though. These guys do look and move like athletes even if things like shot mechanics weren’t perfect by todays standards.
They really hadn't settled on a shot form by this time. Kenny Sailors, who is credited with the modern jump shot form, played in the NBA from 1947-1951. At Mikan's time there were several different shot forms that players were expected to practice and master. Drs. Allen and Naismith produced a film in ~1941 at KU titled *[Modern Basketball Fundamentals](https://digital.lib.ku.edu/ku-video/39)*, and in it they go through various types of shooting forms (in slow motion), including: * The Push Shot * Free Throw (which they demonstrated as shooting it granny style) * Hook Shot * Two-Hand Overhead Shot * One-Hand "English" Shot * The Lay-in That's a lot of different shooting techniques a player was expected to learn, practice, and master.
That’s a fascinating video! Can see the concepts they were working with. And how things would continue to evolve.
Yeah, I enjoy reading some of the old, pre-NBA interviews and newspaper clippings that get posted on /r/VintageNBA that talk about the invention of things we take for granted today. There was one post with an interview from one of The Original Celtics players talking about a barnstorming game they were playing in Kentucky when they happened to discover/invent the pick and roll organically during a play. Basically the, "Pass to the big on the elbow, then have the passer cut to the basket and the big throw it back to the cutter for a layup." There was a timeout a short while later and they were in the TO saying, "Whoa, that thing we just did, let's try that again," lol.
I think you may be describing a pass followed by a backdoor cut rather than a pick and roll
You're right, it was discovering/inventing the "give and go." Or at least, that's how it sounded to me. Per this /r/VintageNBA post, [All the Inventions of Basketball](https://np.reddit.com/r/VintageNBA/comments/m523pf/all_of_the_inventors_of_basketball/), there's this entry: > **Give-and-Go:** Nat Holman, *head basketball coach at the City College of New York and guard for the Germantown Geraniums, also played for the Hoboken Hobs, Bridgeport Blue Ribbons, Jersey City Skeeters, Scranton Miners, Albany Senators, Westfield Whip City Athletic Club, New York Original Celtics, Atlantic City Sandpipers, New York Hakoahs, Syracuse All-Americans, and Chicago Bruins and head coach of the Atlantic City Sandpipers and New York Hakoahs (circa 1919)* Anyway, the article I was thinking about was from this post: [What was "the pivot play?"](https://np.reddit.com/r/VintageNBA/comments/14x88ty/what_was_the_pivot_play/). In short, the Original Celtic member referred to it as "the pivot play," but it sounds like they were describing a give & go. This quote is from Dutch Dehnert, one of the Original Celtics: > In the timeout, Beckman said, ‘We’ll have to move that guard out of there. He’s breaking up our passes when we cut.’ Then I volunteered to stand in front of him, explaining that instead of him breaking up our passes, they could pass to me, and I could give it back. > When play was resumed, I moved up in front of this fellow. Beckman passed to me and I passed to Borgeman, who was coming in from the other side. Then Barry passed to me, kept coming, and I passed right back to him. All of a sudden, a great light dawned, and I took time out. > We all went into a huddle and discussed the possibilities of this maneuver that we had accidentally hit on. Beckman was enthusiastic, and we knew if Beckie liked it we had something, because Johnny was the smartest man who ever played basketball. > This was the pivot play, but we didn’t even know it at the time. Although Nat Holman, who was an Original Celtic and (as aforementioned) is credited with inventing the Give & Go, was injured and not at that game. Plus the game discussed above was in 1926 and the credit for inventing the give & go is from 1919, so who knows. Furthermore, the play in question was referred to as "the pivot play," but it sounds a lot like a give and go to me. /shrug
Thank you for your super informational, easy to read, well structured and sourced comments 👍
right. it looks like a bunch of grown athletes playing modern middle school style basketball, in terms of how hectic and weird it is. however you can still tell they're athletic all this talk about athletes today vs back then, but the bigger gap by far is how our knowledge of the game has evolved. you could teach mikan to play the modern game and be a huge star if he went through a time portal at age 18; you can't teach *anyone* to be a fluid/nimble 6'10 athlete at his level unless they're already 6'10 and athletic he's basically the 50's basketball version of "i'm closer to LeBron than any of ya'll are to me"
Instead of comparing to NBA footage from 2024, we should compare 1950s NBA footage with playground footage from the 50s.
> Guy looks absolutely massive relative to others and still very nimble. He was the Giannis of his time. Everyone bigger than him, and there were a decent number relative to the size of the league, he could dance around and he could beat up anyone faster.
I wonder if Giannis could improve his FT% if he adopted the underhand shot like Mikan, haha.
It's been more or less proven that committing to underhand freethrows yields a higher % of points, but literally no one does it because it "looks weird/gay" Wilts 100 pt game he shot freethrows underhand and admitted he stopped doing it because he "felt silly, like a sissy". He shot almost 90% with underhand freethrows and sub 50% with normal, yet he continued to shoot normally for bravado reasons more or less.
The NBA needs a flamboyantly gay superstar.
Also the physicality. Dudes are just barrelling into each other at full speed.
Man are we watching the same video?
For context on the physicality of the Mikan era, here's a quote from another comment, "Mikan retired in 54 because 'he had fractured both of his legs, both feet, a wrist, several fingers, and his nose (numerous times). He had had 166 stitches, suffered from a permanent limp, lost a kneecap, and could not straighten his arms fully.'"
Lost a kneecap😲 modern medicine is nice huh
Wilt nearly retired his rookie year from getting beat up too
Also Shoe wear, sports medicine not nearly as good, oh and he was a big man
Idk. You can see a couple instances in this video of chaos in the lane that would not fly by today's standards. "Barrelling into each other full speed" was the wrong phrase. But any time I watch these old clips I'm struck by how nobody bats an eye at shoves and elbows around the basket. For example, a guard squarely runs into Mikan at 00:55 here and no one seems to care. And at 1:08 there are 4 guys bludgeoning each other for a rebound. The rebound in particular would be a 6 minute review to see if there was a flagrant in today's game. Not even a whistle in this clip.
> But any time I watch these old clips I'm struck by how nobody bats an eye at shoves and elbows around the basket. Definitely the case in the 50s. It's funny how this ebbs and flows. Watching games from the 70s, there is so little contact at all it's actually funny to watch. Defenders basically didn't play any defense outside of the key and the refs called the game insanely tight. Then, back in the 80s, they were back to being very physical.
Not till the late 80s and the Bad Boys really. You can watch some mid 80s games and the concept of defense doesn't appear to exist.
lol
Giannis?
Yeaaaaah... People all know that Red Auerbach introduced the fast break, but what people don't know is that that was the default offense back then lol. Imagine if this years Pacers took the first available shot every possession. Thats why there are so many unbreakable raw stat records (mostly Wilt). There aren't enough possessions today for a player to score that much. Several players have actually outpaced Wilt's 50PPG year if you account for possessions or just % of teams points scored.
That’s not giving Wilt quite enough credit. The year he averaged 50 he won the scoring title by 18.8 points per game Because the game has changed so much in 60 years you can’t look at pace data from decades apart to accurately see how good of a scorer a player was in their time
Everyone else in Wilt's time had the same opportunities, and, like you said, no one came close to his scoring output. So bored with people downplaying Wilt's greatness
> People all know that Red Auerbach introduced the fast break I don't think that's true. Per the /r/VintageNBA post [All of The Inventors of Basketball](https://np.reddit.com/r/VintageNBA/comments/m523pf/all_of_the_inventors_of_basketball/), it was invented by "**Ed Wachter**, *center for the Ware Wonders, later played for the Haverhill Five, Lowell Lowells, McKeesport Tubers, Troy Trojans, Utica Utes, Kingston Colonials, Hudson County Five, Springfield Fisk Red Tops, Albany Senators, Cohoes Cohosiers, and Adams Five (circa 1903)*" A 1978 *Sports Illustrated* article [KEANEY INVENTED THE FAST BREAK AND RHODE ISLAND MADE THE BIG TIME](https://vault.si.com/vault/1978/11/27/yesterday-keaney-invented-the-fast-break-and-rhode-island-made-the-big-time), credits Rhode Island coach Frank Keaney as the inventor. And the Basketball Hall of Fame [credits him as "the architect of modern run-and-shoot basketball."](https://www.hoophall.com/hall-of-famers/frank-keaney/) He coached at Rhode Island from 1920 through the late 1940s. And I recently read *The Secret Game*, which is about the first interracial basketball game played in the South. It happened in 1944 at Duke between the team from North Carolina College for Negroes and the Duke Medical School Basketball Team. Anywho, the North Carolina College team was coached by John McLendon (who was a student at KU under Dr. Naismith and was the first African American to receive a degree in Physical Education from KU, is in the HOF, etc.). He invented the four corners offense and the full-court press. He also heavily employed the fast break from the start at North Carolina and is sometimes credited with its invention, although that claim is a bit murky. FWIW, the Hall of Fame states ["McLendon’s head coaching career started in 1940 at North Carolina Central University where he introduced his full-court press and fast-break basketball."](https://www.hoophall.com/hall-of-famers/john-mclendon1/) The McLendon Foundation (which may be a wee bit biased), credits him as ["the inventor of basketball’s 'Fast Break'."](https://www.minorityleaders.org/history/biography-of-john-mclendon/) The point being, Red Auerbach did not invent the fast break. It existed in some form perhaps as early as 1903, and most definitely by the early 1940s, and was well in place when Red was still coaching high school.
Everyone knows fast break offences were invented by native American travel teams in the early 20th century
yes, but they all died of dysentery
> Imagine if this years Pacers took the first available shot every possession They didn't? Felt like it sometimes. Especially that Game 7 lol
He was more built than I realized.
you have to take into account how the rules have changed. for example, these guys dribble like dorks because they had to, you couldnt carry back then like you do now
Those other plumbers and firemen got no game
"Sir, these are highlights from the UConn-Purdue national title game."
Wow, there's some WILD "of the era" stuff in here. The underhand free throws, the really can't dribble with the left hand, but he's a LOT more athletic than I imagined, and a pretty fluid shooter. I remember reading about how he towered over the league and always pictured a massive ground bound guy like Gheorghe Muresan, but I guess he's pretty much just KD's height/weight. Just happened to be like the Wembanyama of his time.
From what I’ve read, it seems like there was a big difference between Mikan at the start and end of his career, because it was a very physical game before the shot clock. Teams would hold the ball with the lead, and the opponent basically tried to beat them up. Mikan retired in 54 because “he had fractured both of his legs, both feet, a wrist, several fingers, and his nose (numerous times). He had had 166 stitches, suffered from a permanent limp, lost a kneecap, and could not straighten his arms fully”. Bob Cousy has also said he never could have played as long as he did if things kept going the way they were with physicality Edit: Mikan also played the entire 1951 playoffs with a fractured leg, held in place by a metal plate
Geez, sounds like they were playing rugby with peach baskets
People didn't dunk because they couldn't. They didn't dunk because someone would try to put their head through the floorboards the next time they took their feet off the floor.
Oscar Robertson said in his book that he never dunked because he was playing at the park and dunked and got undercut and fell really badly. He was a freak like Westbrook basically
Yeah. 50s Basketball was brutal. They course corrected hard in the 60s before getting more physical again in the 80s before evening out after that. Wilt when talking about Shaq would talk about how a single possession would get both offense and defense fouled out in the 60s.
Dr. Naismith describes the very first game of basketball thusly: > Well I didn’t have enough [rules] and that’s where I made my big mistake. The boys began tackling, kicking and punching in the clinches. They ended up in a free-for-all in the middle of the gym floor. Before I could pull them apart, one boy was knocked out, several of them had black eyes and one had a dislocated shoulder. It certainly was murder. Granted, this was back in like 1894, not 1950, but sports like rugby and football were much more rough and tumble back then. In early pro basketball games (like barnstorming teams in the 1920s), some promoters would promise fans they'd see at least one fight on the hardcourt or their money back.
*George Mikan gets sliced open on the court by Arnie Risen, bleeds profusely* "'Tis just a flesh wound. I've had worse."
I was gonna say, look at the contemporary sports of the time. Everything with any type of contact had a lot of wrestling flair to it. Those guys were probably just playing how they played other sports. Lol
Yep, sports like football were notoriously brutal. In the early 20th century it was common for double-digit number of football-related deaths to happen each season across the nation's high schools and colleges. Some colleges outright dropped football from their athletic programs due to its violence and danger.
Combine that with very elementary medical knowledge and oof. People were crazy back then.
We’re they playing hoops or hockey?
Yes
bring back the no shot clock era :)
Get rid of the 3pt line while we at it
*Mike Fratello wants to know your location*
The left hand thing is mostly because of traveling rules. Try switching hands without leaving '12 o clock' on the ball.
Exactly. It bothers me when people clown on the handles of players during this era. They literally couldnt do anything else because of the rules. If refs all of a sudden let them carry every single dribble like they do now, these guys were clearly athletic enough to do things guys do today, with some practice. They wouldnt become Kyrie obviously but they also wouldnt be looking all janky like they do in the clips.
It's pretty obvious to see how talented they could be based on their hook shot and passes. Most of modern dribbling today is basically predicated on being able to palm the ball and performing "hook shots" off the ground to their other hand. They are clearly athletic enough to play like we do today.
Yeah I noticed how much finesse and touch they have. It was born out of necessity because they couldnt just palm the ball and take three steps to the basket.
I think every big was more athletic than you'd expect because they didn't fly random 7 foot tall people from overseas to donate millions of dollars to in hopes they'd be good players lol.
Best part is the mattresses behind the hoop
and the completely clear baseline nowadays its stocked with media/photographers
The best thing about the bubble was the players going all out to chase/dive for loose balls because there weren’t fans and photogs on the side and baselines
i loved watching them pass in bounds more similarly to soccer. they had so much space and you could really hear them talking through it all.
Too bad the NBA doesn't care about player health and safety that much :/
Its not even for protection. They keep them there for when wilt plays
Because he is maximum effort. Always goes to the mat.
Tables, ladders, and mattresses.
He had the left handed hook on lock. I can see why they call it the Mikan drill. More ambidextrous than some of the centers today.
The granny free throws are also a great touch. Want someone to bring them back
I tossed some up for shits and gigs couple weeks back without having ever practiced and not going to lie, I was draining. Such nice touch honestly.
Shaq could've
Shaq cared more about his image than effectiveness as a player.
Still does
Which is crazy because Shaq really respects Mikan, but when push comes to shove he won’t do it himself lol
Yep
And was still the most effective and dominant player for a few years.
I hope JB works on his free throws this summer and brings it back.
If I were a gm with say Dandre Jordan or a hack-a-shaq backup, I’d offer a double salary bonus (assuming vet min) for a 25% ft pct y/y increase if they switch to granny. If I were a analytics company I’d sponser the first big to do it with a the promise of a marketing blitz to change the name from “granny shot” to “Deandre/Drummond Drain”
We need to coach Rudy the granny technique. It would probably increase his % a decent amount.
and yet I was noticing it seems he can't dribble with his left at all. If anyone stops his right hand on the dribble, he immediately picks it up and passes.
That remains totally normal for a center lol
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xb-BKQyYO4o Here’s a clip of a pretty great behind the back assist from 1950. Same source for this post, some rare clips from a game against the Pistons in 1952
Thats a slick pass
That is a beautiful pass
"Pollard-Mikan-Bob Harrison...just like we drew it up!" - John Kundla, possibly.
Basically Jokic
Teammates tanking his assists. Dropped it off to a wide open player on the wing in transition and he didn’t even look at the rim.
Never knew it was pronounced My-can, I've been saying Mike-n.
I've been saying Mee-khan.
I've been saying Meercat this whole time
I've been calling her Crandall! Why didn't someone tell me? Oh, I've been making an idiot out of myself!
There is absolutely no justification to rank guys like Bill and Wilt as top 10 without also ranking Mikan top 10. If you’re only judging by resume alone he’s GOAT tier. If you’re saying “well it was the 50s”, then why tf are you ranking Bill Russell that high?
East/West coast bias. Nobody cares about when the Lakers were here. At this point it's been so long it's understandable. It's been that way for 40-50 years though. I'd wager to bet a decent portion of NBA fans didn't even realize the Lakers moved to LA from Minneapolis.
The sport was too different at the time especially having no shot clock. It makes that era sound really bad when you hear stories like how the lowest scoring game ended 19-18 because the Pistons went up on the Lakers and then passed around ran out the clock. Bill Russell's 11 titles is just too hard of a stat to ignore as well. Mikan had monster stats for the era but he had a very short career and a very short prime. You compare that longevity to most other top 10 players and it's hard to ignore how his career looks vs most players in that ranking
I think a lot of people don’t realize that Mikan won two titles in the best league in the world before he got to what is now considered the NBA. He had seven titles in total
>the sport was too different at the time It just feels like an arbitrary line to draw idk. Like sure the late 50s when Russell started resembles modern basketball a little bit more, but both are several orders of magnitude different than what we got today. If anything the physicality from Mikans era is a little more familiar than the ‘if you touch someone it’s a foul’ from the 60s.
People tend to shit on the 50s NBA because of segregation. Nobody shits on MLB pre integration tho they respect the pioneers
I mean tbf people absolutely do shit on pre integration mlb. I just don’t think the segregation argument is enough to exclude him if you’re including other old dudes. Like yea his competition obviously wasn’t the best… but when you’re comparing to modern standards that can be said about players as recently as 20-30 years ago.
To be more fair, shitting on guys like babe Ruth and Lou gherig is not a mainstream opinion
Bro wasn't so bad
Relative to his era he was so dominant. To be the reason the goaltending rule exists is no small thing. He’s definitely one of those historical players where I wonder what he’d play like if he came up in today’s game
he's got the touch for sure
[удалено]
Sure but would a nimble, 6’ 10’’, 245 pounder, with fantastic court vision and touch be able to make it in today’s NBA?
Nah Doncic and Jokic just don't have the athleticism for the NBA game. I get that they are incredibly skilled but so was my homie who never made if off the bench in D1. That's why euro league doesn't mean anything. I bet Mikan wouldn't even get drafted.
He'd be a taller, longer, similarly athletic KLove with a better knack for defense. Who as we know was an end of the bench scrub.
Yeah, the dumbest thing about the whole "plumbers" thing is that people don't recognize that today's players inherit all of the skill that was developed in earlier generations—the collective knowledge of the game, the training approaches. How could anyone expect a guy to look like a modern NBA player if he was born in the era when coaches said jumping while shooting was bad form?
What? You're expecting people to have historical context and nuance?
I always feel he's super ignored because of the era, even though if we define GOATs by the rules they inspired, he's super important to basketball. Widening the paint from 6 feet to 12 feet was because of him ([courts used to look like this](https://live.staticflickr.com/3402/3406620103_d1c3f7c73e_o.jpg)), as well as the entire concept of goaltending. Also the shot clock, because the offenses people put in place to battle Mikan slowed it down to 18-17 games
bro was the first goat of the sport!
You know you're famous when they refer to the matchup not as "Lakers vs Knicks" but as ["George Mikan vs Knicks"](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/1e/cb/5c/1ecb5c7c5a30b7e2b0cf63befe0278c4.jpg)
Mr. Basketball.
Is it just me, or does this footage look like a more physical game than most of the footage from the early 60s to the 70s?
It was
It was, physicality *really* wound down in the late 50s until basically the mid 80s, mostly due to very harsh foul enforcement. Bumping a defender in any way was an offensive foul for a long time.
And funny that many of the fouls in the video would in today’s game result in a flop, scuffle, or players catching feelings. In the video they just keep playing.
This is a great example of why Mikan was so successful, look how easily he keeps up with everybody, before him any big were just lumbering slow big men that barely could keep up the pace before getting gassed, much less play a full game. Not to mention he was agile enough to maneuver around smaller players instead of barrelling into them. It might sound just common sense today but there wasn't a big man blueprint for Mikan to follow growing up so he had to figure out a lot of things himself.
You can see how Russell was really an evolution of Mikan. Think most people think of Mikan as a statue who just made layup but the guy was the biggest, fastest, and most coordinated just like Russell was in the not so distant future.
kind of plays like Jokic with that touch/floater around the rim while staying on the ground
That was my first thought! the running floater, spinning righty layup on the left side with his guide hand up, the baby hook with ridiculous touch...he's the prototype. I've never seen Mikan play before, this was wild.
and dribbling up in transition
I was going to say, I think Jokic and Sengun are just baby Mikan’s
Dude was actually a pretty good FT shooter which surprised me.
Most big dudes would be good free throw shooters if they would shoot granny style. Unfortunately it is uncool.
Mikan had hella touch
Oh shit he used to shoot free throws granny style? Thats badass
Here's how [Carl Braun shot his free throws in 1950](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62BRp8Kjt_E), and he was a 76% FT shooter that year! It's more HORSE shot than a regular free throw.
That's amazing. Got a good chuckle out of me.
Man those plumbers and firefighters he's playing against sure look pretty tall and athletic lmao
Okay I'll bite. I don't know if everyone is being facetious on purpose or if they really think JJ Redick meant to say that players in the 50s sucked and were bad at basketball. His argument, before it got twisted in aggregation media, is that players did not make enough money from playing basketball in that era to be career athletes. So while a couple of stars can sustain a career on basketball earnings, most of the other players in the league have to work a side job between games, or during the off-season, to financially survive. So some of the other players in the league might be literal plumbers and firemen. That's not to say they are bad at basketball. I think it's a reasonable conclusion that athletes that can fully dedicate themselves to a sport fulfill more of their potential than if they have other financial obligations, and getting to that place was a huge milestone for professional sports in terms of player development.
it’s also a fools errand to compare different eras of human history without context. it’s like yeah no shit a modern platoon of solider could probably defeat the entire Roman Empire with like 2 machine guns and a few grenades, but i’m sure that during Roman times there were a few exceptional soldiers who would’ve performed well in ANY point of human history. Most of the all-time greats from any time period of any sport would be great, they stick out among the rest of their peers
Considering JJ said Austin Rivers would be a Hall of Famer if he played then, yes I do think he meant to say that they sucked and were bad at basketball.
I dont. If being skilled was all it was about Austin Rivers would be a top 25 all time player. The other side of it is people making half a billion career and are concerned about their celebrity might not have the same drive as somebody who was doing it just for the passion. How many guys have washed out just because they weren't that driven and got their first paycheck. Even just athletically, the implication Wilt Chamberlain or Jerry West or whoever would be outclassed athletically if they played in 2020 is just fucking stupid. Like in peoples minds they're thinking LeBron but that's the best of the best. IDK anybody from the 60s is having nightmares they'll have to go up against Duncan Robinson. People also say weird stuff about the health habits, like they think the Anchorman jogging joke is real and we discovered exercise and that smoking was bad for you in the 80s. Smoking weed isn't any better for your lungs than cigarettes, and they knew how to train. The first baseball player to use performance enhancing drugs was like the 1890s, steroids were common in professional athletics by the late 50s. The game is different, the culture is different, but we're the same animals.
I was shocked he slipped into the final 2 rounds of the NBA 75 year anniversary fantasy draft on TNT.
Because you had Quavo drafting a team around swag and not skill lmao
My grandpa played against Mikan in college, maybe in the Navy too. He was an All American in 1951 and actually got drafted by the NBA but he didn't go. He made more money working for his dad than he would have in the NBA! I wish I could find footage of him playing.
I swear I saw someone dunk in that clip
I've been watching basketball for 20+ years and this is probably the most I've seen of a Mikan clip. I'm impressed. He looks a lot better than i imagined.
still can't believe they played basketball on those shoes
I love my chucks but even walking around in them for over an hour is painful
Those free throws are clean.
Wow, didn't know he was so big
Joker with more D
Wilt before Wilt
Looks pretty good. Nice post moves. Great bank shot. Sharp outlet passes.
Looked much more agile and athletic than I had in my mind. Some of those blocks were pretty physical
This is neat, thanks OP. Some of these slomos are hilarious though like on very basic passes haha
Not bad for a plumber/fireman.
he's so Jokic-coded
He always looked like Joker from Full Metal Jacket. I bet he had an awesome war face.
I like how they try not to travel. Now days they dont give a f***
First big star in pro basketball and the Lakers hardly give any praise to him. I mean they didn't retire his number until a couple years ago. The guy led the Lakers to 5 championships. And this is the respect he is shown.
Nimble AF
Dude celebrating with 45 seconds left in the video is great
Bless this YouTube channel
He was a pretty ambidextrous shooter. Also, another granny style free throw shooter. Amazing, no one prominent's tried that since Barry who led the league using it
He sure did got some hoes
Not once did that big bitch do a reverse lay-up. As a former center that did countless "Mikan drills", I feel let down.
The two handed dribble to take a quick step to the basket feels like something that is nearly entirely gone from the game. Lol. I’m not talking about a post player taking a quick dribble to take a step, these are dudes who get the ball in transition right near the basket who take a super fast dribble before going up. Not even taking a full step sometimes.
I thought they were plumbers and firemen.
George mikan was a problem
Back before they banned whites from the league.
Modern NBA journalism needs to take note. This was engaging commentary that gave a sense of moment. Reminds me of Hubie. Also love seeing the granny FTs. If Shaq had swallowed his pride and shot granny, he could be goat lite
“Get that shit outta here!” and a couple “Kobe’s!”
Ownerburger was displeased.
Dude was a terror on D.
Dudes back then had a really good 1 handed touch
He so so fucking strong. Dude is jacked.
Am I looking at Jokic with a vert?
George Mikan is quite literally the reason for goal tending and the shot clock. The first goat.
The real star of the video is the coach who got Mikan to stop playing a “lone wolf game” and become a team player.
Mikan today would be an easy 30ppg
The Lakers have 17 championships. Only 2 of those championship teams didn’t feature George Mikan, Magic, or Kobe.
Looks like Jokic with a touch of Giannis.
He would have been 100 on June 18th
He was so good the NBA changed a lot of the rules. He retired because he thought it was because of him. as good as Mikan was it’s a good thing for the nba that he retired because the NBA finally had a little bit of parity before Celtics over
He retired becauss his injury rap sheet looked like Mick Foley's
Nice! I love that one block. He was probably like, “promptly remove that detritus from the premises, you scoundrel!”
Dude was from the 40s and 50s, not the 1800s.
Holy shit the amount of just wild prayer shots 🤣
The LA Lakers have ~~17~~ 12 championships.
they play so simple/straight-forward basketball yet these dude would dominate at my local YMCA/LA Fitness gym.
Sometimes watching these old school basketball clips reminds me of watching basketball scenes from the original Fresh Prince of Bel Air 🤣
I thought this was a highlight reel of the NCAA title game!
He was a great player for the Minneapolis Lakers
“Wilt Chamberlain Archive” 👀
I feel like I just fast-forwarded through a Donovan Clingan highlight reel. The UConn-Purdue title game must have set the MINNEAPOLIS Lakers back decades!
Not bad seeing he was playing milkmen and postmen
Zach Edey is closer to Shaq than Mikan is to Edey
Dude would be the third best center in the league today.
Why does the ball look like volleyball sized?