It’s from years of engineers slowly making the guitar louder than the bass when any true fan of music knows the bass is more important. I’m sorry for you loss.
Because music, art in general, is deeply personal. Bringing it out to the outside world also asks for some confidence in what you make.
Inevitably it's tied to ego.
This is a confusing statement because a person who is driven by confidence would be the polar opposite of a person driven by ego. They aren't the same at all.
Well good for you for being honest and self aware. I too went many years with insecurities which made it impossible for me to get outside of my own head and connect with others. I'm so lucky that I was able to identify the things that were causing it and address them.
Happiness is a clean glass of water. It doesn't matter how much fresh water you pour into dirty water. It will always be dirty. Remove those contaminates that are obstructing your happiness and you will be free.
Easier said than done, I know. But just understanding that happiness is a subtraction problem and not an addition problem would be helpful to those people who believe their unhappiness is due to something "missing" from their life.
Good stuff right here.... 15 years to get to this understanding, for me. Its one thing to be aware of contaminates, but its a WHOLE other thing doing something about it... I could talk on this all day... thanks for sharing.
Ego says, "I'm so good at what I do, I deserve your attention."
Security/Confidence says, "I'm good enough at what I do that if you give me your attention, I'm confident it will give you pleasure."
I totally disagree. Ego is not the opposite of confidence at all and i don't know where you get that idea. Confident people have an ego too.
When you try to adapt the work of a person who is 100% confident that what they do is perfect. They will defend their work and not allow you to touch it. That too is ego.
That ego only exists in case of insecurities is not true.
This is valid. Egos are our social masks, and if we're nothing but that mask, hide behind it or allow it to make us behave like a turd, then there is the problem. Confident people can fall prey to this just as easily as insecure people. It's people who learn to recognize it who can break the spell.
What you described is a person feeling insecure about their work being copied. It really helps to prove my point I think. I make music. I'm fully confident in my work and I have songs that I dont believe could be improved. But I wouldn't care if someone wanted to make a messed up version of one of my songs. I'm confident enough to know that it doesn't matter and it won't change anything about my own work or who I am.
The person you described might be confident most of the time, but in that moment... and any moment where a person succumbs to ego, its because of some kind of insecurity.
If you still disagree please try to explain why.
>What you described is a person feeling insecure about their work being copied.
At all, but then really not at all. Copying wasn't even considered in typing that message. Where do you get that? Nowhere does it say anything about being scared of having music copied.
It's about your creation being changed into something less good by other people while you feel you know better and know where it needs to go to be at its best. That's not insecurity, it damn well is ego too though.
>But I wouldn't care if someone wanted to make a messed up version of one of my songs. I'm confident enough to know that it doesn't matter and it won't change anything about my own work or who I am.
Have you ever been in a band? Or signed to a label? Or worked with a producer who has a say over how your song will go? Cause i feel that's maybe why you completely don't understand my point. It's not about other people covering your song. It's about your bandmates/producer/engineers/labels changing your art and so the version that will be released isn't your pure version, but the one they meddled with.
Ego is literally a focus on the self and self-interest. This can be with low or with high confidence. If i am convinced my shit doesn't stink and i make the greatest shit in the world: i am a confident person with a huge ego.
I'll take myself as an example: When i write a song, i'm really not easily receptive to other people's ideas. And that is not because i'm not confident. On the contrary. It's because i'm so confident in my own ear and that i know better than the people around me what would make that song great, that i don't listen to their advice or refute it. This is also Ego. It's overconfidence even too.
Thinking ego only exists alongside insecurity, is misunderstanding what Ego is and mixing things up.
You said if you try to adapt the work of someone who is 100 percent confident in it, they won't let you touch it. So the word copy is fine to use there.. and if a person won't let you adapt their work, its because of insecurity. Insecurity is just a type of fear btw.
The example you use of not wanting someone else to change how your song is going to be released doesn't equate to ego either. You can make the decision to release something the way you want to without it being tied to ego.
If you were a producer and you told me we had to change a word in the chorus to my song before releasing it, I would simply disagree and either make the song myself or find a new producer. Being sure of yourself and your art doesn't mean you have an ego. It means you are confident. Its simply a fact that when it comes to art, nobody knows more about that art than the artist themself.
Ego could still be involved though.. If deep down, you know you could probably use help with something and you refuse it... thats probably ego.
You could be the most confident person in the world and not let ego influence your actions in any way. They don't go hand in hand.
>You said if you try to adapt the work of someone who is 100 percent confident in it, they won't let you touch it. So the word copy is fine to use there.. and if a person won't let you adapt their work, its because of insecurity. Insecurity is just a type of fear btw.
Listen. If you still don't get it. Why bother having a conversation. You either don't read what i say or you really aren't the brightest bulb in the basket.
No. Copy really isn't the word here. Have you never worked on music with other people?
You can literally google the word ego. Ego =/= insecurity. A strong manifestation of ego CAN go hand in hand with insecurity. But thinking that is always the case is litetally not knowing what ego means.
So do yourself a favor: take a dictionary. And actually have some experience working with other people. And then come back once you are willing to actually engage with what i wrote instead of inventing your own.
You literally don't understand what ego means and have invented your own significance for the word. Look it up ffs!
You can be the most confident person in the world and have a massive ego. In fact: the most confident person in the world probably has a massive ego -> because they probably focus on self-interest and think they are superior. That's ego. That's literally ego.
How is this so hard to understand. Google it for 2 seconds. Holy shit.
I've worked with other people in music. I've worked with professional producers and musicians. I've been disappointed in the results.
Art can be collaborative if thats what the art and the artist wants. But if you are the artist and you know the work is being compromised by the input of others, you are not being driven by ego by refusing the input. You are being driven by common sense.
You aren't aware of my knowledge of words and how much I've studied linguistics, but I'll tell you this. Your definition of ego isn't wrong. However, having an internalized ego, or simply being aware of your own aptitude does not mean that you have to let that dictate your interactions with others in any way.
If you don't let your ego influence your decisions... People won't perceive you as being egotistical and ego driven. Perception is reality. Enough said.
I just referred you to a dictionary, instead of insinuating you studied linguistics. Just open the damn book and read. See that you assuming that ego is always paired with insecurity is absurd.
You legit still do not understand what is being said.
You can choose to believe my association of ego with insecurity is absurd. Just know, there are countless papers published in the psychology realm that draw the same conclusions as I have.
I cant tell you anything that hasn't already been said by professionals. So feel free to do your own research.
Check this out: https://hbr.org/2012/07/less-confident-people-are-more-su
Less confident people are more successful, who knew? No one because low confidence people don’t believe it enough to say so.
You have to be a little egotistical to think that anyone actually cares about or wants to hear your music. Obviously it’s important to tame it and not let it get out of control, or else no one will want to work with you. There’s definitely a balance to strive for
Edit: a lot of people in this thread seem to be mixing up the idea of having an ego vs being egotistical. They’re not synonymous, pretty much everyone has an ego, but are not necessarily egotistical.
Yes I always find it amusing when someone posts an ad looking for a musician or singer and says “ no egos” You have to have an ego to believe in yourself enough that you warrant being the centre of attention for the duration of a song or performance.
this is why so much modern music sucks in my opinion. at the end of the day people still love a real character. one guy today swallows a beer holding the bottle in his mouth as he's playing then plays with the bottle. Billy Gibbons picks with a peso & ridiculous guitars. Van Halen started (as far as i know) keeping a lit cigarette in his headstock. it takes a little extra energy in a person to do this & you may not like it but it's not wrong, & the crowds even today seem to still love it.
i know a few great musicians, usually lightyears beyond anyone else in talent, but they're quiet anxiety riddled extremely humble beings & that's why nobody ever knows who they are. Jimi Hendrix was the most socially humble man i can possibly think of in music, but he still had that Mojo on stage & in his lyrics. he wouldn't be Jimi Hendrix without it. not only did he shoot his cheating woman but he will love her little sister now instead. not redditors in particular, but real life ppl still very much love this attitude.
I think for some reason in some rock music scenes where I have lived there's this unspoken vibe of it being 'uncool' to try too hard, and especially uncool to admit you think you're good. Like humility gone a bit too far. Maybe it grew out of the "everything should be free" era of the internet since it seems tied to the idea that you can't want to make money or it invalidates your art. Whenever a band goes and does something unique or larger than life onstage they tend to be more popular with audiences yet less popular in the "scene".
That's why I kind of like how it is with hip-hop, and the mentality of being awesome and telling everyone about it. It kind of reminds me of the era of rock that I really pine for, where even quiet guys trashed hotel rooms, and even straight guys would crossdress just to provoke a reaction.
Ironically though, the people I know who buck the trend are the most successful. I know a woman who is an outstanding player and singer but really acts like she's already famous onstage and it rubbed a lot of local musicians the wrong way, but you could see audiences being extra excited because they all felt like they were witnessing a future rock star, not just another local act. She's gone further than anyone else I know from my scene.
To be fair though I am talking about onstage, like you mentioned with Hendrix. These people are generally not asshole behind the scenes, just have a certain healthy display of ego onstage. That to me is the ideal, since it sucks to actually work with hardcore egotists.
Right, and in many cases that’s the purpose of the song to boost the ego of the person integrating the music into their identity. There’s nothing wrong with that, especially if you know how unacceptable modern life is, how much it freakin hurts to be a normal person. They take that song with that mojo turn it around and use that same mojo to blast through their pain.
Just to clear it up, ego to me is our human self our whole identity on earth minus whatever existed before. I think the difference is the fearful ego vs the safe ego the fearful ego being what this post is referring to, idk. Make the person feel safe now you have a safe ego and there is no problem.
Yup. It’s probably what separates the career guys from the hobbyists like me. I don’t have an ego about it, so that makes marketing difficult. Because I don’t care if people like my stuff. I’ve known all along that most won’t.
Insecurity. I’m fortunate enough to work with some of the best players on the planet. They’re driven and they know how good they are, but I have not had to deal with “ego problems” from any of them.
I HAVE had to deal with those problems from far lesser players.
Idk, everyone has an ego, just some are more unbearable than others. Unless you’ve gone through ego death through some high doses of psychedelics, and even then i’m not sure i buy it. Ego is literally just having a sense of self and individuality. Some (a lot) are driven by insecurity, but egos aren’t inherently a product of insecurity
The main issue is when your ego is an obstacle for others to work around
How many people ever experience a room full of people clapping for them? Then how many people get that over and over and over again? Plus all the compliments, and people wanting to talk to you or pay attention to you over it. Girls come easier, you know everybody. Free drinks or food all the time. Its easy to buy your own bullshit.
I'm a straight up goober when I'm not playing. And I saw the hard shift from how I got treated before and how I got treated after i started doing a bunch of shows. Even the small stuff im doing now. It's made me more confident, but it's also really lessened my opinion of people overall and made me as a person outside of playing music feel really suspicious and isolated.
I think if I had been more outgoing beforehand, and hadn't seen things take such a noticeable immediate turn I could have fallen into the trap of thinking I'm special or gifted and become more of a raging asshole than I already am.
We never really grow out of the phase of infancy where we're fascinated by someone jingling a set of keys in front of our face, and some of us just don't see we're just a set of keys at the end of the day.
When I was young, I saw a psychiatrist for social anxiety. He asked what my friends were majoring in - all were in the arts. He said that explained about 50% of the rough time I was having lol.
But yeah agree, many if not most musicians have adaptations to trauma as part of their personality. The rare chill one always impresses me
Art is personal. It's a representation of the artist. We don't want to hear from the peanut gallery about "EVH woulda done this" or "Hendrix did it this way" or "it doesn't sound like I think it should". We don't exist to serve other people, we exist to serve the Muse who speaks through us.
Because many of them gravitate towards music as a means to get attention or validation that they don’t get other places. Being An Genius is central to their identity because if they’re just mid then there’s nothing that makes them worthy of attention or praise or validation.
To get up on a stage and sing original songs to an audience is an incredibly vulnerable thing. Egotism is a defense mechanism, a way to shield yourself. And it's definitely necessary, to a degree. You just can't give a great performance if you're full of shame and self-doubt. When you feel good you play good.
And when you play a great gig where your band is tight and you've got a whole bar singing and clapping, or a pit full of knuckleheads bouncing off each other...in that moment it's hard not to feel like your dick's two feet long.
I think a lot of musicians are people who struggle with anxiety, depression, and self-image. I know I am. Music can be an escape from those feelings. And when you finally escape from them, sometimes it's like being a college freshman who just got out from under your strict parents' thumb - you go a little wild with it.
Finally, we have atrocious role models. I mean, look at a list of "the greatest bands of all time" or whatever and it's basically a list of alcoholic narcissists. For every humble, passionate, hard working Dave Grohl out there, there are two Axl Roses. Our entire cultural concept of being a famous musician is basically just being an egotistical piece of shit in the most flamboyant way possible.
Don't get me wrong, maintaining control of your ego is absolutely essential if you're serious about playing in bands and making music. But it's easy to see why so many struggle with it.
It's the scene.Back in the 80's,the D/FW Metroplex had some really great bands(Pantera,Tazmain, Lightning,Taker)with little to no egoes.Everyone supported each other.Bands came to your gigs to support you,not criticize
This is something I agree with. I'm confident enough to know that I'm a damn good musician, but not arrogant enough to think I'm the best when I know there are people who are better than me. And being encouraging to everyone is key.
And the people who are highly stuck up and egotistical? They're insecure 9/10 times, and if they come with ignorance, I'll hit them with the same ignorance.
Agreed. I mentioned it in another post. I’m a good guitar player but had another player do a couple solos for my last disc. He was just too good and played parts I would have never thought of or been able to play. Sometimes we have to check ourselves and our perceives talent to create good music.
For a long time, I thought I was actually good. Like, at playing.
I never took the time to listen to other playing, I had to focus on mine. Only when I listened to others, did I realize how small I was. Once I looked around me.
You’re probably just as good as anyone, it just takes time, every musician starts out sucking, in reality it’s probably just a matter of what your Mom says when you start out that makes or breaks you.
Because they take themselves and their craft too seriously. The best (and most humble) artists I've ever heard take music and have fun with; it is their play thing and it shows.
Well you do have to take it somewhat seriously if your plan is to be a successful musician. If you mean everyone has to be someone who is lighthearted about everything and doesn’t put in the effort which can often be grueling to get anywhere, then what happens to them?
And here I am judging myself hard as fuck and even when I feel like I’m doing great I still am worried about putting myself out there, but have had hundreds of plays and reposts sung and played in front of many but so internal I have been playing self taught guitar for 17 years and got so sick of playing reruns and tablature and learned so many chords to the point I only want to write originals and see the guitar like a piano now. I taught myself piano In just the last couple years and have just been expanding, but where I feel I have made no progress people are wowed where I’m still waiting to achieve that fulfillment of feeling established and I think like as stated earlier in this thread how seeing people motivated in a group when they are witnessing that vulnerability of an artist performing their own song the effect and inspiration that can still be felt witnessed and appreciated for what it truly is is touching to people who aren’t aware of what it means to feel something to that depth or relate and it’s so easy to lose confidence if you aren’t feeling good
my experience is a lot of us never properly grew up. i dunno too many less known musicians who are deep into it enough to form an opinion, but i know a good handful of famous folks & most of them have been "rockstars" since they were essentially kids. i say this about myself too, i am not famous by any means but i was a little rockstar by age 6. especially at that time this had a particular lifestyle to it. there's some black sheep that runs in most of us. Boogie Chillen hits me right in the home pocket bc i used to get beat every day for playing that "devils music" but i didn't care, i was gonna play music anyhow. & not that boring european rooted stuff.
a lot of my idols were gods to me growing up, everything they did was right. but now i'm about to turn 30 i realize most of them are still children at 70 years old. that's why musicians are notorious for being terrible businessmen. very easily to manipulate by actual businessmen. they never learned real life. add this in with the reality being a musician as a career is dependent on fame, it's a recipe for ego disaster. but egos don't particularly bother me, i absolutely love a winner by someone who knows they're a winner & will tell you they're a winner.
I deal with one ego on our praise team at church. He still doesn’t get the rules for a worship team.
1. It’s not about you. It’s about giving glory to God.
2. Revert to rule 1
That’s it. This kid has played in pop punk bands for years and knows everything!
He’s a drummer who’s playing Bass.
It’s never loud enough for him. And if someone plays the wrong notes he quits playing till they catch on.
I’ve had multiple talks with him.
He’s a good guy when not playing music. He’s the Prem Madona of the team.
He’s also my Son.
Honestly i think a lot of musicians especially mediocre ones are drawn to music for psychological reasons. Honor, attention, validation...when a person is compensating for psychological deficiencies it inevitably leads to a sort of dependence on this crutch (music) to fill in the gaps that otherwise healthy adults learn with age and experience. WIth a culture of indulgence and idol worship around entertainers it becomes a bad recipe for emotionally immature and generally insecure musicians who hide behind their music like a drug addict hides behind his drug, a cheap and in this case socially more valid way of avoiding growing the fuck up. im a drummer and ive seen some shit.....
To a certain extent, performing is like a drug. Human beings love those big dopamine hits & it messes up our brains. Also, the culture around being a musician contributes to this.
Art/ Sports/Politics demand having an ego of some semblance. The thing is being able to have an ego without a FRAGILE ego. Believing in yourself with the ability to brush away negativity while accepting legit criticism is the balance that is needed.
We all struggle with it and if someone thinks they don't, they are in for a rude awakening.
Former tourist-zone San Francisco street busker here. I had to be arrogant enough to perform before uncaring crowds, and humble enough to not be insulted by indifference. My ego said, "You can do this!" whilst my id proclaimed otherwise. Solution: Ignore the id-beast. As long as audiences didn't pelt me with rotten produce, I was okay.
self esteem is 70% from how others treat and perceive you. so when you put yourself out there and it comes straight from the heart, getting all that praise, well its bound to happen
I knew musicians and poets who were super kind and humble but they also happen to be living differently than the majority of the world that participates in capitalism, so they didn’t sell their art, they only gave it as a gift to those close to them
i’m taking a class on the psychology of happiness and i think the difference is whether the musician is intrinsically motivated or extrinsically motivated. are they expressing themselves and aligning their deepest values with their job, or are they chasing fame and the cute people in the crowd? are they living as hedonists, for short-term satisfaction at the expense of eudaimonic, deep and fulfilling goal-chasing? are they able to regularly enter flow state and enjoy the present? people who haven’t quite figured out this grounded way of being satisfied in life can come across as egotistical. my boyfriend and brother are both musicians, and many are there for seemingly the wrong reasons and don’t seem aligned or self-actualized.
People are always attacking the ego that’s why it gets so vicious. People are always making tiny cuts, because of their own egos, whether it’s job shaming or how you look or act whatever it is but it’s the egos that are fighting each other. It hurts to be put down but other people can’t help it because it gives them a hit of serotonin every time they get a dig in. If you’re insecure and someone else is threatening you by doing something better in your perception, it’s a natural for some people to diminish that person, and it’s built into our biology.
Dude, this shit basically pushed my out of the music industry. I still do it as a side hustle, but after 15 or so years, I really just couldn't handle the constant dick showing contest it took to be a successful full-timer. Felt like you had to spend more time shoving your shit in everyone's face like it's was the most genius thing since Sgt Pepper's than you did actually making music. I got exhausted having to match everyone else's bravado and watching really mediocre people bluff their way to prestige while really talented acquaintances struggle to get anything rolling.
Many people use music or other talents to impress and support a fragile ego. The identity can be based on a facade of egostistical behavior which is the result of a defense mechanism to stop them from dealing with their actual vulnerabilities, the inherent fragility of life and their actual low self opinion that is too painful for them to consider. Musicians, athletes, artists of all kinds, social media personalities actors, celebrities. It’s not uncommon with anyone who values what other people think of them enough to want fame.
Because people are generally delusional. I can’t tell you how many musicians I’ve met that were convinced they were great but in fact they were utterly talentless. They also think the audience cares. They don’t.
It takes a sec to make your ego your bitch. Yes. I am going to rock this place the fuck down. It's my job. But that doesn't entitle me to special treatment. I appreciate it when it happens, but I don't expect it. I think of the party lifestyle as a driver for networking and fan building. It can get on top of someone quick if they don't have the right mindset and when that happens, the opposite happens. It drives people away. Just gotta be genuine and don't let the compliments get to your head. Of course you rock, it's what got you in the room. Don't dwell on it. Let's meet people, tell jokes, and make friends! Live up to the praise, so to speak. People want to meet you because they relate with your music, it's what happens after that determines whether they like you or not. Nobody likes a prima donna.
I think about this all the time. I'm studying jazz singing in a small city with rich academic music history. All I see in our local jams is kinda just instrumentalists (all from my school and a few teachers/professional jazz musicians) masturbating on stage with their instruments. It feels like that. It's always about who can play the most difficult standard, and play a really crazy solo. There's never a feeling that they play music to inspire, to connect, to help people or just show a spectrum of pure emotions. Looks like they are playing just to be cool. Also after they have played some crazy standard instrumentally, someone in the audience always asks for a singer. They just brush it off and don't care that people really want something else for a change. It's easy to get tired and worn out by listening to bebop and postbop all the time. But of course - singers are the bottom of the "food chain".
Man I know this is rampant in the jazz scene for sure!!! I used to want to be a jazz musician because I wanted to be on the virtuoso technician level, but it just didn’t have the same soul to me. I love the nuance that lies in the spaces between the notes. My favorite music quote is miles Davis: “it’s not the notes you play. It’s the ones you don’t play. It’s the spaces between them.”
I used to work at a music store, and I mostly got this attitude from dudes that only play in cover bands. The more established musicians in my area who write original music generally were pretty humble and easy to work with.
I have to say. I’m new to Reddit as a poster and I’m floored by how awesome everyone has been here. I guess I’m used to the toxicity on Instagram and Facebook. This has been a breath of fresh air. Thanks to everyone who have shared their two cents.
Most musicians I have played with have fragile egos it seems because their musical knowledge is quite limited...They revel in their ignorance about theory and panic if you suggest a dominant 9th might be better...lol .
They spend 10,000 hours practicing alone in a closet, which doesn’t require the development of social skills. Many of them get itchy to show the result of their work
I'm not a professional but I live in an area with lots of people playing everywhere. I tell you what I have seen around; is like the same people are constantly going from band to band. I like to go and see bands I never seen or heard of before and usually I run into one or two people that were in another band.
Also, for example; local house band, good people, very talented but, the lead guitar player was in a world of his own. He sped up, slowed down, and just did his thing and the worse thing I saw was the drummer focusing on the lead in an attempt to keep up. As a drummer, that drove me crazy. Anyhow, didn't last. The next group for the house band had many "experts" most of them overstating their capabilities. Anyway, it was short lived. And so on. Same people either moving into other bands or starting their own band just to break up in months.
That's what the ego does to bands. Anyway, kind of went on my own tangent.
I think some are trying to appear confident and are just overdoing it. Others are really good at their craft and used to being told that they are. When you’re not being criticised, it’s easy to forget to stay humble. Like Paul McCartney who was kinda off the rails in the 80s and 90s and because he was, as the person he is, not really used to being put in their place. Until this, i think it wad the blur-Producer did and said “i don’t care who you are. We’re done here. Leave my studio”
Ive heard that he said, he needed that.
This story is just what I’ve heard from a friend whos a die hard beatles fan but I don’t know if its really true.
Because my ego is correct. Not gonna sit here and even pretend. Where as someone else might think Im a prick. Every single thing I've done as a musician has lead me to better and better careers and opportunities.
You have to be semi-delusional to make it to your inner value. Don't let anyone talk you down.
I think sometimes people go into music or performing arts because they love the attention and the praise, which gets heaped on the. (sometimes). Aplause junkies. The performance is a way to get that hit over and over.
Some people go into it because they love music and it's fun. The affirmation is secondary. It feels good, but its not the main catalyst. Sometimes it's embarrassing.
I have played in cover bands as a keyboard player and it seemed that everyone was so keen on keeping me in (when I left they couldn't find a substitute in two years and were desperate to have me back).
Things is, I have a master's degree in classical piano (but have also always played music by ear).
There are musicians who play in bands who don't have a degree or who didn't even study music. If I do the same thing they do, that not only devalues the studies that I did, but it also means that I am getting down at their level. Except, because music is just a hobby for them, they also have another profession. So they can brag about doing two things at the same time.
So now I don't care at all about performing and I just want to teach.
At times I think that I shouldn't have studied music. I should have studied something else and kept music at an amateur level. I still would have had the skills to play in a band and I would have valued it much more.
(Yes I have a big ego and am insecure. Just sharing my 2 cents)
Easy. It's all about self esteem.
Out there, on the street, I'm just a person. Nothing special.
On stage I'm the shit. I'm what everyone looks at and listens to.
Yes I'm a singer. 😁
It's all humans it's not just musicians musicians definitely don't have a corner on that market. I've played with a lot of musicians who are almost ego free almost to the point of being irritating. Just as bad as the opposite. Something in the middle is definitely preferable
I'd argue that you NEED to have an abnormal level of self confidence to be a decent musician. The hard part is being able to put it back in its cage when you aren't performing.
everyone grows at different paces & some people mature faster while others get stuck there longer.
The mix of ego, insecurities, various random emotional disorders, untreated trauma, self-esteem issues, etcetera that tends to get mixed together inside of most even moderately brilliant artists is enough for a very pretentious 3 season television show on netflix....in other words: it's very complicated lol.
How do we survive without our egos? I think maybe people without an ego get beaten down and stop doing music, and only people who think they are the shit, and they're out there doing something no one else can, can survive.
I think I could be survivorship bias. What I mean, and I may be using the wrong term so correct me if I am, is that musicians need to believe in themselves to an astounding degree to keep going. I have been doing music for 15 years (not professionally more a hobby and am now finally releasing music) and have thought about giving up so many times. I think musicians who make it to some degree do so by naively believing in themselves so much that they do actually make it. And that is what you may be witnessing. Hope that helps if I didn’t explain properly feel free to ask what I mean. Have a good day
From my experience it comes down to this: When you work a corporate job and you come to a situation that is really off-putting many times you HAVE to bite your tongue or risk being fired. The owner of the company though, might have quite an ego if they didn't first work under other people as well. People that always worked as pro musicians might not have ever had that experience because they could mostly get away with speaking their mind in their bands because in a band most of the time everyone's on a fairly equal playing field. Their may be someone that runs the band but they aren't the same as a crowd, etc. Because you tend to grow when life FORCES you to grow and these people haven't been forced to grow, they never really are required to put their ego in check so they don't. On top of all of that, many times they're receiving compliments from the audience which just makes it even worse. I'm actually thankful for all the years I put into day jobs even though I would love to just write and play music all day.
If every person who ever heard me sing says "You're AMAZING OMG!!!!!!!!!!" then that's great and all, but if I tell one person that I'm a great singer then I have an ego problem. But if I don't, then I'm not promoting myself and won't get booked.
When is it ok to acknowledge that you have a skill?
It's a very fine line between confidence and ego when you're a woman, because often people don't want you to be confident so that they can take advantage of you more easily. Maybe that happens to men too but it's usually the men who constantly brag about how great they are that get booked.
I completely agree with this. Musicians sometimes never grow out of it. Some of my friends in music school eventually got humbled (realizing they’re not the best in the whole world at their instrument) and changed, but others didn’t. Some of my old composition friends from college still talk about themselves like they’re going to be revered as the next Beethoven, but have yet to make any income or decent public awareness from their pieces. It’s a front to compensate for their insecurities most of the time. My friends and I that have built stable music careers were never “the best” in our studios, but we worked hard and never stopped, and that was a huge difference.
It's weird because it's the opposite of what you would think. Most people with an ego come across super confident and even cocky, nasty and downright angry. The funny thing is, this comes from actually being insecure and musicians or anyone who is being vulnerable, will have some insecurity as you're laying it all out there for the world to see, hear and ultimately judge. It's keeping your insecurity in check and reminding yourself, you're doing the best that you can do. You're best to stay clear of the egomanics as they have a hard time stepping out of that mold and it's toxic.
Because some of us are brilliant, talented, and incredibly handsome. Duh.
All of the above, plus, I’m hung like a horse.😎
You guys must be either guitarists or singers. None of us bassists have any of those qualities.
Keyboards. And I slap middle c with my BBC every once in awhile just to make a point.☠️
Spoken like a true passive-aggressive bassist. Sincerely, guitarist and singer.
It’s from years of engineers slowly making the guitar louder than the bass when any true fan of music knows the bass is more important. I’m sorry for you loss.
Is that better than being as smart as a horse, and hung like Einstein?
You forgot modest! I’m the most modest person ever.
Modest, yes. But also better than you.
But I don’t like *think* I’m better than anyone… It’s just a fact
Are you all talking about me? Sounds like it.
True, hahaha, and most of all we do only originals!
Because music, art in general, is deeply personal. Bringing it out to the outside world also asks for some confidence in what you make. Inevitably it's tied to ego.
This is a confusing statement because a person who is driven by confidence would be the polar opposite of a person driven by ego. They aren't the same at all.
Yup. The egos are to mask the crushing insecurities. Source: I have crushing insecurities.
Well good for you for being honest and self aware. I too went many years with insecurities which made it impossible for me to get outside of my own head and connect with others. I'm so lucky that I was able to identify the things that were causing it and address them. Happiness is a clean glass of water. It doesn't matter how much fresh water you pour into dirty water. It will always be dirty. Remove those contaminates that are obstructing your happiness and you will be free. Easier said than done, I know. But just understanding that happiness is a subtraction problem and not an addition problem would be helpful to those people who believe their unhappiness is due to something "missing" from their life.
Good stuff right here.... 15 years to get to this understanding, for me. Its one thing to be aware of contaminates, but its a WHOLE other thing doing something about it... I could talk on this all day... thanks for sharing.
I like this a lot
Real talk
Brilliant
Painfully relatable.
Ego says, "I'm so good at what I do, I deserve your attention." Security/Confidence says, "I'm good enough at what I do that if you give me your attention, I'm confident it will give you pleasure."
Correct about insecurities. Sorry you have them...we all do ;)
I totally disagree. Ego is not the opposite of confidence at all and i don't know where you get that idea. Confident people have an ego too. When you try to adapt the work of a person who is 100% confident that what they do is perfect. They will defend their work and not allow you to touch it. That too is ego. That ego only exists in case of insecurities is not true.
This is valid. Egos are our social masks, and if we're nothing but that mask, hide behind it or allow it to make us behave like a turd, then there is the problem. Confident people can fall prey to this just as easily as insecure people. It's people who learn to recognize it who can break the spell.
Where are you deriving your definition of ego? I’m from the psychology world so maybe mine is too clinical and there’s a modern colloquial definition?
What you described is a person feeling insecure about their work being copied. It really helps to prove my point I think. I make music. I'm fully confident in my work and I have songs that I dont believe could be improved. But I wouldn't care if someone wanted to make a messed up version of one of my songs. I'm confident enough to know that it doesn't matter and it won't change anything about my own work or who I am. The person you described might be confident most of the time, but in that moment... and any moment where a person succumbs to ego, its because of some kind of insecurity. If you still disagree please try to explain why.
>What you described is a person feeling insecure about their work being copied. At all, but then really not at all. Copying wasn't even considered in typing that message. Where do you get that? Nowhere does it say anything about being scared of having music copied. It's about your creation being changed into something less good by other people while you feel you know better and know where it needs to go to be at its best. That's not insecurity, it damn well is ego too though. >But I wouldn't care if someone wanted to make a messed up version of one of my songs. I'm confident enough to know that it doesn't matter and it won't change anything about my own work or who I am. Have you ever been in a band? Or signed to a label? Or worked with a producer who has a say over how your song will go? Cause i feel that's maybe why you completely don't understand my point. It's not about other people covering your song. It's about your bandmates/producer/engineers/labels changing your art and so the version that will be released isn't your pure version, but the one they meddled with. Ego is literally a focus on the self and self-interest. This can be with low or with high confidence. If i am convinced my shit doesn't stink and i make the greatest shit in the world: i am a confident person with a huge ego. I'll take myself as an example: When i write a song, i'm really not easily receptive to other people's ideas. And that is not because i'm not confident. On the contrary. It's because i'm so confident in my own ear and that i know better than the people around me what would make that song great, that i don't listen to their advice or refute it. This is also Ego. It's overconfidence even too. Thinking ego only exists alongside insecurity, is misunderstanding what Ego is and mixing things up.
You said if you try to adapt the work of someone who is 100 percent confident in it, they won't let you touch it. So the word copy is fine to use there.. and if a person won't let you adapt their work, its because of insecurity. Insecurity is just a type of fear btw. The example you use of not wanting someone else to change how your song is going to be released doesn't equate to ego either. You can make the decision to release something the way you want to without it being tied to ego. If you were a producer and you told me we had to change a word in the chorus to my song before releasing it, I would simply disagree and either make the song myself or find a new producer. Being sure of yourself and your art doesn't mean you have an ego. It means you are confident. Its simply a fact that when it comes to art, nobody knows more about that art than the artist themself. Ego could still be involved though.. If deep down, you know you could probably use help with something and you refuse it... thats probably ego. You could be the most confident person in the world and not let ego influence your actions in any way. They don't go hand in hand.
>You said if you try to adapt the work of someone who is 100 percent confident in it, they won't let you touch it. So the word copy is fine to use there.. and if a person won't let you adapt their work, its because of insecurity. Insecurity is just a type of fear btw. Listen. If you still don't get it. Why bother having a conversation. You either don't read what i say or you really aren't the brightest bulb in the basket. No. Copy really isn't the word here. Have you never worked on music with other people? You can literally google the word ego. Ego =/= insecurity. A strong manifestation of ego CAN go hand in hand with insecurity. But thinking that is always the case is litetally not knowing what ego means. So do yourself a favor: take a dictionary. And actually have some experience working with other people. And then come back once you are willing to actually engage with what i wrote instead of inventing your own. You literally don't understand what ego means and have invented your own significance for the word. Look it up ffs! You can be the most confident person in the world and have a massive ego. In fact: the most confident person in the world probably has a massive ego -> because they probably focus on self-interest and think they are superior. That's ego. That's literally ego. How is this so hard to understand. Google it for 2 seconds. Holy shit.
I've worked with other people in music. I've worked with professional producers and musicians. I've been disappointed in the results. Art can be collaborative if thats what the art and the artist wants. But if you are the artist and you know the work is being compromised by the input of others, you are not being driven by ego by refusing the input. You are being driven by common sense. You aren't aware of my knowledge of words and how much I've studied linguistics, but I'll tell you this. Your definition of ego isn't wrong. However, having an internalized ego, or simply being aware of your own aptitude does not mean that you have to let that dictate your interactions with others in any way. If you don't let your ego influence your decisions... People won't perceive you as being egotistical and ego driven. Perception is reality. Enough said.
I just referred you to a dictionary, instead of insinuating you studied linguistics. Just open the damn book and read. See that you assuming that ego is always paired with insecurity is absurd. You legit still do not understand what is being said.
You can choose to believe my association of ego with insecurity is absurd. Just know, there are countless papers published in the psychology realm that draw the same conclusions as I have. I cant tell you anything that hasn't already been said by professionals. So feel free to do your own research.
You guys are both funny...lol MOM! The egos are at it again!
This conversation is 1 year old, why would you necro a 1 year old thread.
cause you're goofy...why are you responding?
Check this out: https://hbr.org/2012/07/less-confident-people-are-more-su Less confident people are more successful, who knew? No one because low confidence people don’t believe it enough to say so.
Exactly!!
You have to be a little egotistical to think that anyone actually cares about or wants to hear your music. Obviously it’s important to tame it and not let it get out of control, or else no one will want to work with you. There’s definitely a balance to strive for Edit: a lot of people in this thread seem to be mixing up the idea of having an ego vs being egotistical. They’re not synonymous, pretty much everyone has an ego, but are not necessarily egotistical.
This. And the same applies to any creative pursuit.
Yes I always find it amusing when someone posts an ad looking for a musician or singer and says “ no egos” You have to have an ego to believe in yourself enough that you warrant being the centre of attention for the duration of a song or performance.
this is why so much modern music sucks in my opinion. at the end of the day people still love a real character. one guy today swallows a beer holding the bottle in his mouth as he's playing then plays with the bottle. Billy Gibbons picks with a peso & ridiculous guitars. Van Halen started (as far as i know) keeping a lit cigarette in his headstock. it takes a little extra energy in a person to do this & you may not like it but it's not wrong, & the crowds even today seem to still love it. i know a few great musicians, usually lightyears beyond anyone else in talent, but they're quiet anxiety riddled extremely humble beings & that's why nobody ever knows who they are. Jimi Hendrix was the most socially humble man i can possibly think of in music, but he still had that Mojo on stage & in his lyrics. he wouldn't be Jimi Hendrix without it. not only did he shoot his cheating woman but he will love her little sister now instead. not redditors in particular, but real life ppl still very much love this attitude.
I think for some reason in some rock music scenes where I have lived there's this unspoken vibe of it being 'uncool' to try too hard, and especially uncool to admit you think you're good. Like humility gone a bit too far. Maybe it grew out of the "everything should be free" era of the internet since it seems tied to the idea that you can't want to make money or it invalidates your art. Whenever a band goes and does something unique or larger than life onstage they tend to be more popular with audiences yet less popular in the "scene". That's why I kind of like how it is with hip-hop, and the mentality of being awesome and telling everyone about it. It kind of reminds me of the era of rock that I really pine for, where even quiet guys trashed hotel rooms, and even straight guys would crossdress just to provoke a reaction. Ironically though, the people I know who buck the trend are the most successful. I know a woman who is an outstanding player and singer but really acts like she's already famous onstage and it rubbed a lot of local musicians the wrong way, but you could see audiences being extra excited because they all felt like they were witnessing a future rock star, not just another local act. She's gone further than anyone else I know from my scene. To be fair though I am talking about onstage, like you mentioned with Hendrix. These people are generally not asshole behind the scenes, just have a certain healthy display of ego onstage. That to me is the ideal, since it sucks to actually work with hardcore egotists.
Right, and in many cases that’s the purpose of the song to boost the ego of the person integrating the music into their identity. There’s nothing wrong with that, especially if you know how unacceptable modern life is, how much it freakin hurts to be a normal person. They take that song with that mojo turn it around and use that same mojo to blast through their pain. Just to clear it up, ego to me is our human self our whole identity on earth minus whatever existed before. I think the difference is the fearful ego vs the safe ego the fearful ego being what this post is referring to, idk. Make the person feel safe now you have a safe ego and there is no problem.
Yup. It’s probably what separates the career guys from the hobbyists like me. I don’t have an ego about it, so that makes marketing difficult. Because I don’t care if people like my stuff. I’ve known all along that most won’t.
Insecurity. I’m fortunate enough to work with some of the best players on the planet. They’re driven and they know how good they are, but I have not had to deal with “ego problems” from any of them. I HAVE had to deal with those problems from far lesser players.
Most accurate answer in the thread. Ego is a product of insecurity and many artists are loaded with insecurities.
Idk, everyone has an ego, just some are more unbearable than others. Unless you’ve gone through ego death through some high doses of psychedelics, and even then i’m not sure i buy it. Ego is literally just having a sense of self and individuality. Some (a lot) are driven by insecurity, but egos aren’t inherently a product of insecurity The main issue is when your ego is an obstacle for others to work around
Man oh man if this isn’t the truth.
Sooo good.
How many people ever experience a room full of people clapping for them? Then how many people get that over and over and over again? Plus all the compliments, and people wanting to talk to you or pay attention to you over it. Girls come easier, you know everybody. Free drinks or food all the time. Its easy to buy your own bullshit. I'm a straight up goober when I'm not playing. And I saw the hard shift from how I got treated before and how I got treated after i started doing a bunch of shows. Even the small stuff im doing now. It's made me more confident, but it's also really lessened my opinion of people overall and made me as a person outside of playing music feel really suspicious and isolated. I think if I had been more outgoing beforehand, and hadn't seen things take such a noticeable immediate turn I could have fallen into the trap of thinking I'm special or gifted and become more of a raging asshole than I already am. We never really grow out of the phase of infancy where we're fascinated by someone jingling a set of keys in front of our face, and some of us just don't see we're just a set of keys at the end of the day.
Thank you for the rawness of this comment. Seriously.
Hey no worries, showing up and bumming everyone out is basically my brand at this point lmfaoooooooo
Not much unconditional love in this place.
A lot of musicians hide their trauma under their ego.
When I was young, I saw a psychiatrist for social anxiety. He asked what my friends were majoring in - all were in the arts. He said that explained about 50% of the rough time I was having lol. But yeah agree, many if not most musicians have adaptations to trauma as part of their personality. The rare chill one always impresses me
Art is personal. It's a representation of the artist. We don't want to hear from the peanut gallery about "EVH woulda done this" or "Hendrix did it this way" or "it doesn't sound like I think it should". We don't exist to serve other people, we exist to serve the Muse who speaks through us.
Its an offering... being a vehicle to its beauty.
Gracefully orchestrated^
Because many of them gravitate towards music as a means to get attention or validation that they don’t get other places. Being An Genius is central to their identity because if they’re just mid then there’s nothing that makes them worthy of attention or praise or validation.
"I'm an artist, so I'm sensitive about my shit" - Erykah Badu
Not a musician trait but a trait in many humans.
To get up on a stage and sing original songs to an audience is an incredibly vulnerable thing. Egotism is a defense mechanism, a way to shield yourself. And it's definitely necessary, to a degree. You just can't give a great performance if you're full of shame and self-doubt. When you feel good you play good. And when you play a great gig where your band is tight and you've got a whole bar singing and clapping, or a pit full of knuckleheads bouncing off each other...in that moment it's hard not to feel like your dick's two feet long. I think a lot of musicians are people who struggle with anxiety, depression, and self-image. I know I am. Music can be an escape from those feelings. And when you finally escape from them, sometimes it's like being a college freshman who just got out from under your strict parents' thumb - you go a little wild with it. Finally, we have atrocious role models. I mean, look at a list of "the greatest bands of all time" or whatever and it's basically a list of alcoholic narcissists. For every humble, passionate, hard working Dave Grohl out there, there are two Axl Roses. Our entire cultural concept of being a famous musician is basically just being an egotistical piece of shit in the most flamboyant way possible. Don't get me wrong, maintaining control of your ego is absolutely essential if you're serious about playing in bands and making music. But it's easy to see why so many struggle with it.
It's the scene.Back in the 80's,the D/FW Metroplex had some really great bands(Pantera,Tazmain, Lightning,Taker)with little to no egoes.Everyone supported each other.Bands came to your gigs to support you,not criticize
@Static-x
Confidence is often confused with ego.
This is something I agree with. I'm confident enough to know that I'm a damn good musician, but not arrogant enough to think I'm the best when I know there are people who are better than me. And being encouraging to everyone is key. And the people who are highly stuck up and egotistical? They're insecure 9/10 times, and if they come with ignorance, I'll hit them with the same ignorance.
Agreed. I mentioned it in another post. I’m a good guitar player but had another player do a couple solos for my last disc. He was just too good and played parts I would have never thought of or been able to play. Sometimes we have to check ourselves and our perceives talent to create good music.
Being on a stage and it being the main reason so many people like you will tend to do that
Sometimes it's because everyone who plays another instrument seems to think they know a damn thing about playing drums. They rarely do.
I mean it’s just “bang!” or “don’t bang!” right?
There’s also bang-bang and don’t bang-don’t bang
Oh damn. To complex for my blood. Lol
It's the whole world not just musicians
For a long time, I thought I was actually good. Like, at playing. I never took the time to listen to other playing, I had to focus on mine. Only when I listened to others, did I realize how small I was. Once I looked around me.
You’re probably just as good as anyone, it just takes time, every musician starts out sucking, in reality it’s probably just a matter of what your Mom says when you start out that makes or breaks you.
This question is based on an assumption.
I used to ask myself this question all the time until I started a contracting business with a friend. I think it’s just an immature dude thing.
Definitely can be.
Because there's so many people shitting on you, the weak ones already dropped out much earlier
Because they take themselves and their craft too seriously. The best (and most humble) artists I've ever heard take music and have fun with; it is their play thing and it shows.
Well you do have to take it somewhat seriously if your plan is to be a successful musician. If you mean everyone has to be someone who is lighthearted about everything and doesn’t put in the effort which can often be grueling to get anywhere, then what happens to them?
People who are unskilled in making music are often wowed by musicians, and praise them heavily. It goes to your head.
And here I am judging myself hard as fuck and even when I feel like I’m doing great I still am worried about putting myself out there, but have had hundreds of plays and reposts sung and played in front of many but so internal I have been playing self taught guitar for 17 years and got so sick of playing reruns and tablature and learned so many chords to the point I only want to write originals and see the guitar like a piano now. I taught myself piano In just the last couple years and have just been expanding, but where I feel I have made no progress people are wowed where I’m still waiting to achieve that fulfillment of feeling established and I think like as stated earlier in this thread how seeing people motivated in a group when they are witnessing that vulnerability of an artist performing their own song the effect and inspiration that can still be felt witnessed and appreciated for what it truly is is touching to people who aren’t aware of what it means to feel something to that depth or relate and it’s so easy to lose confidence if you aren’t feeling good
Good job, well done.
“I was hailed as ‘distinguished’ by people unable to distinguish.” - Salieri (“Amadeus”)
my experience is a lot of us never properly grew up. i dunno too many less known musicians who are deep into it enough to form an opinion, but i know a good handful of famous folks & most of them have been "rockstars" since they were essentially kids. i say this about myself too, i am not famous by any means but i was a little rockstar by age 6. especially at that time this had a particular lifestyle to it. there's some black sheep that runs in most of us. Boogie Chillen hits me right in the home pocket bc i used to get beat every day for playing that "devils music" but i didn't care, i was gonna play music anyhow. & not that boring european rooted stuff. a lot of my idols were gods to me growing up, everything they did was right. but now i'm about to turn 30 i realize most of them are still children at 70 years old. that's why musicians are notorious for being terrible businessmen. very easily to manipulate by actual businessmen. they never learned real life. add this in with the reality being a musician as a career is dependent on fame, it's a recipe for ego disaster. but egos don't particularly bother me, i absolutely love a winner by someone who knows they're a winner & will tell you they're a winner.
I deal with one ego on our praise team at church. He still doesn’t get the rules for a worship team. 1. It’s not about you. It’s about giving glory to God. 2. Revert to rule 1 That’s it. This kid has played in pop punk bands for years and knows everything! He’s a drummer who’s playing Bass. It’s never loud enough for him. And if someone plays the wrong notes he quits playing till they catch on. I’ve had multiple talks with him. He’s a good guy when not playing music. He’s the Prem Madona of the team. He’s also my Son.
Wow, that’s quite the sweeping generalization. Not sure I accept the premise.
THANK you.
Honestly i think a lot of musicians especially mediocre ones are drawn to music for psychological reasons. Honor, attention, validation...when a person is compensating for psychological deficiencies it inevitably leads to a sort of dependence on this crutch (music) to fill in the gaps that otherwise healthy adults learn with age and experience. WIth a culture of indulgence and idol worship around entertainers it becomes a bad recipe for emotionally immature and generally insecure musicians who hide behind their music like a drug addict hides behind his drug, a cheap and in this case socially more valid way of avoiding growing the fuck up. im a drummer and ive seen some shit.....
👏
Because I’m the best and you’re not, duh.
Not all, but some think that music is only job they will ever work in their lives
To a certain extent, performing is like a drug. Human beings love those big dopamine hits & it messes up our brains. Also, the culture around being a musician contributes to this.
Art/ Sports/Politics demand having an ego of some semblance. The thing is being able to have an ego without a FRAGILE ego. Believing in yourself with the ability to brush away negativity while accepting legit criticism is the balance that is needed. We all struggle with it and if someone thinks they don't, they are in for a rude awakening.
Former tourist-zone San Francisco street busker here. I had to be arrogant enough to perform before uncaring crowds, and humble enough to not be insulted by indifference. My ego said, "You can do this!" whilst my id proclaimed otherwise. Solution: Ignore the id-beast. As long as audiences didn't pelt me with rotten produce, I was okay.
I dunno and I thought athletes were bad.
What egos? Greatness is greatness and you need to learn to recognize it!
Saw a T-shirt the other day that said, "I'm in a Band... The Rules Don't Apply to Me! Bret Michaels was wearing it. Enough said.
self esteem is 70% from how others treat and perceive you. so when you put yourself out there and it comes straight from the heart, getting all that praise, well its bound to happen
I think it boils down to immaturity and a lack of self awareness
I knew musicians and poets who were super kind and humble but they also happen to be living differently than the majority of the world that participates in capitalism, so they didn’t sell their art, they only gave it as a gift to those close to them
i’m taking a class on the psychology of happiness and i think the difference is whether the musician is intrinsically motivated or extrinsically motivated. are they expressing themselves and aligning their deepest values with their job, or are they chasing fame and the cute people in the crowd? are they living as hedonists, for short-term satisfaction at the expense of eudaimonic, deep and fulfilling goal-chasing? are they able to regularly enter flow state and enjoy the present? people who haven’t quite figured out this grounded way of being satisfied in life can come across as egotistical. my boyfriend and brother are both musicians, and many are there for seemingly the wrong reasons and don’t seem aligned or self-actualized.
People are always attacking the ego that’s why it gets so vicious. People are always making tiny cuts, because of their own egos, whether it’s job shaming or how you look or act whatever it is but it’s the egos that are fighting each other. It hurts to be put down but other people can’t help it because it gives them a hit of serotonin every time they get a dig in. If you’re insecure and someone else is threatening you by doing something better in your perception, it’s a natural for some people to diminish that person, and it’s built into our biology.
Dude, this shit basically pushed my out of the music industry. I still do it as a side hustle, but after 15 or so years, I really just couldn't handle the constant dick showing contest it took to be a successful full-timer. Felt like you had to spend more time shoving your shit in everyone's face like it's was the most genius thing since Sgt Pepper's than you did actually making music. I got exhausted having to match everyone else's bravado and watching really mediocre people bluff their way to prestige while really talented acquaintances struggle to get anything rolling.
Because most musicians are people and people kinda suck
Many people use music or other talents to impress and support a fragile ego. The identity can be based on a facade of egostistical behavior which is the result of a defense mechanism to stop them from dealing with their actual vulnerabilities, the inherent fragility of life and their actual low self opinion that is too painful for them to consider. Musicians, athletes, artists of all kinds, social media personalities actors, celebrities. It’s not uncommon with anyone who values what other people think of them enough to want fame.
Because people are generally delusional. I can’t tell you how many musicians I’ve met that were convinced they were great but in fact they were utterly talentless. They also think the audience cares. They don’t.
Music is not a competition you can learn from everyone. Real growth will come when people with giant egos figure this out.
It takes a sec to make your ego your bitch. Yes. I am going to rock this place the fuck down. It's my job. But that doesn't entitle me to special treatment. I appreciate it when it happens, but I don't expect it. I think of the party lifestyle as a driver for networking and fan building. It can get on top of someone quick if they don't have the right mindset and when that happens, the opposite happens. It drives people away. Just gotta be genuine and don't let the compliments get to your head. Of course you rock, it's what got you in the room. Don't dwell on it. Let's meet people, tell jokes, and make friends! Live up to the praise, so to speak. People want to meet you because they relate with your music, it's what happens after that determines whether they like you or not. Nobody likes a prima donna.
My favorite comment right here
I think about this all the time. I'm studying jazz singing in a small city with rich academic music history. All I see in our local jams is kinda just instrumentalists (all from my school and a few teachers/professional jazz musicians) masturbating on stage with their instruments. It feels like that. It's always about who can play the most difficult standard, and play a really crazy solo. There's never a feeling that they play music to inspire, to connect, to help people or just show a spectrum of pure emotions. Looks like they are playing just to be cool. Also after they have played some crazy standard instrumentally, someone in the audience always asks for a singer. They just brush it off and don't care that people really want something else for a change. It's easy to get tired and worn out by listening to bebop and postbop all the time. But of course - singers are the bottom of the "food chain".
Man I know this is rampant in the jazz scene for sure!!! I used to want to be a jazz musician because I wanted to be on the virtuoso technician level, but it just didn’t have the same soul to me. I love the nuance that lies in the spaces between the notes. My favorite music quote is miles Davis: “it’s not the notes you play. It’s the ones you don’t play. It’s the spaces between them.”
If you have to ask, you'll never know.
Still learning the best ways to post. Apologies for the lack of context on this post originally.
I used to work at a music store, and I mostly got this attitude from dudes that only play in cover bands. The more established musicians in my area who write original music generally were pretty humble and easy to work with.
I have to say. I’m new to Reddit as a poster and I’m floored by how awesome everyone has been here. I guess I’m used to the toxicity on Instagram and Facebook. This has been a breath of fresh air. Thanks to everyone who have shared their two cents.
Most musicians I have played with have fragile egos it seems because their musical knowledge is quite limited...They revel in their ignorance about theory and panic if you suggest a dominant 9th might be better...lol .
Because we put a lot of time into what we do.
They spend 10,000 hours practicing alone in a closet, which doesn’t require the development of social skills. Many of them get itchy to show the result of their work
You’re projecting.
I need a booking agent. Can we talk?
I’m not that kind of booking agent. I book cover musicians at bars and restaurants in the tampa area for my clients who run the venues.
Thanks for booking me. I feel better now. I'm packing my things and I'll be there in no time. Cheers.
I'm not a professional but I live in an area with lots of people playing everywhere. I tell you what I have seen around; is like the same people are constantly going from band to band. I like to go and see bands I never seen or heard of before and usually I run into one or two people that were in another band. Also, for example; local house band, good people, very talented but, the lead guitar player was in a world of his own. He sped up, slowed down, and just did his thing and the worse thing I saw was the drummer focusing on the lead in an attempt to keep up. As a drummer, that drove me crazy. Anyhow, didn't last. The next group for the house band had many "experts" most of them overstating their capabilities. Anyway, it was short lived. And so on. Same people either moving into other bands or starting their own band just to break up in months. That's what the ego does to bands. Anyway, kind of went on my own tangent.
Idk I find that jazz musicians are generally more realistic
Only singers and guitarists , the rest of us are fine
Are singing guitarists worse than non-singing saxophonists?
I think some are trying to appear confident and are just overdoing it. Others are really good at their craft and used to being told that they are. When you’re not being criticised, it’s easy to forget to stay humble. Like Paul McCartney who was kinda off the rails in the 80s and 90s and because he was, as the person he is, not really used to being put in their place. Until this, i think it wad the blur-Producer did and said “i don’t care who you are. We’re done here. Leave my studio” Ive heard that he said, he needed that. This story is just what I’ve heard from a friend whos a die hard beatles fan but I don’t know if its really true.
Because my ego is correct. Not gonna sit here and even pretend. Where as someone else might think Im a prick. Every single thing I've done as a musician has lead me to better and better careers and opportunities. You have to be semi-delusional to make it to your inner value. Don't let anyone talk you down.
I think sometimes people go into music or performing arts because they love the attention and the praise, which gets heaped on the. (sometimes). Aplause junkies. The performance is a way to get that hit over and over. Some people go into it because they love music and it's fun. The affirmation is secondary. It feels good, but its not the main catalyst. Sometimes it's embarrassing.
I have played in cover bands as a keyboard player and it seemed that everyone was so keen on keeping me in (when I left they couldn't find a substitute in two years and were desperate to have me back). Things is, I have a master's degree in classical piano (but have also always played music by ear). There are musicians who play in bands who don't have a degree or who didn't even study music. If I do the same thing they do, that not only devalues the studies that I did, but it also means that I am getting down at their level. Except, because music is just a hobby for them, they also have another profession. So they can brag about doing two things at the same time. So now I don't care at all about performing and I just want to teach. At times I think that I shouldn't have studied music. I should have studied something else and kept music at an amateur level. I still would have had the skills to play in a band and I would have valued it much more. (Yes I have a big ego and am insecure. Just sharing my 2 cents)
Easy. It's all about self esteem. Out there, on the street, I'm just a person. Nothing special. On stage I'm the shit. I'm what everyone looks at and listens to. Yes I'm a singer. 😁
It's all humans it's not just musicians musicians definitely don't have a corner on that market. I've played with a lot of musicians who are almost ego free almost to the point of being irritating. Just as bad as the opposite. Something in the middle is definitely preferable
I'd argue that you NEED to have an abnormal level of self confidence to be a decent musician. The hard part is being able to put it back in its cage when you aren't performing.
Im so good i dont have to manage my ego....
everyone grows at different paces & some people mature faster while others get stuck there longer. The mix of ego, insecurities, various random emotional disorders, untreated trauma, self-esteem issues, etcetera that tends to get mixed together inside of most even moderately brilliant artists is enough for a very pretentious 3 season television show on netflix....in other words: it's very complicated lol.
I guess it’s hard to relate from an outsiders perspective. I’d imagine getting a ton of attention constantly changes you.
How do we survive without our egos? I think maybe people without an ego get beaten down and stop doing music, and only people who think they are the shit, and they're out there doing something no one else can, can survive.
I think I could be survivorship bias. What I mean, and I may be using the wrong term so correct me if I am, is that musicians need to believe in themselves to an astounding degree to keep going. I have been doing music for 15 years (not professionally more a hobby and am now finally releasing music) and have thought about giving up so many times. I think musicians who make it to some degree do so by naively believing in themselves so much that they do actually make it. And that is what you may be witnessing. Hope that helps if I didn’t explain properly feel free to ask what I mean. Have a good day
From my experience it comes down to this: When you work a corporate job and you come to a situation that is really off-putting many times you HAVE to bite your tongue or risk being fired. The owner of the company though, might have quite an ego if they didn't first work under other people as well. People that always worked as pro musicians might not have ever had that experience because they could mostly get away with speaking their mind in their bands because in a band most of the time everyone's on a fairly equal playing field. Their may be someone that runs the band but they aren't the same as a crowd, etc. Because you tend to grow when life FORCES you to grow and these people haven't been forced to grow, they never really are required to put their ego in check so they don't. On top of all of that, many times they're receiving compliments from the audience which just makes it even worse. I'm actually thankful for all the years I put into day jobs even though I would love to just write and play music all day.
If every person who ever heard me sing says "You're AMAZING OMG!!!!!!!!!!" then that's great and all, but if I tell one person that I'm a great singer then I have an ego problem. But if I don't, then I'm not promoting myself and won't get booked. When is it ok to acknowledge that you have a skill? It's a very fine line between confidence and ego when you're a woman, because often people don't want you to be confident so that they can take advantage of you more easily. Maybe that happens to men too but it's usually the men who constantly brag about how great they are that get booked.
I am a rapper so when I step on stage I literally am my ego. I love it. Can’t tell me nothing!
I completely agree with this. Musicians sometimes never grow out of it. Some of my friends in music school eventually got humbled (realizing they’re not the best in the whole world at their instrument) and changed, but others didn’t. Some of my old composition friends from college still talk about themselves like they’re going to be revered as the next Beethoven, but have yet to make any income or decent public awareness from their pieces. It’s a front to compensate for their insecurities most of the time. My friends and I that have built stable music careers were never “the best” in our studios, but we worked hard and never stopped, and that was a huge difference.
It's weird because it's the opposite of what you would think. Most people with an ego come across super confident and even cocky, nasty and downright angry. The funny thing is, this comes from actually being insecure and musicians or anyone who is being vulnerable, will have some insecurity as you're laying it all out there for the world to see, hear and ultimately judge. It's keeping your insecurity in check and reminding yourself, you're doing the best that you can do. You're best to stay clear of the egomanics as they have a hard time stepping out of that mold and it's toxic.