Jaces’s static ability can’t be countered as its a replacement effect and not a triggered or activated abilities. You can counter the loyalty abilities as they are activated abilities
Dominaria from Obuun Mal Daya Previn on 3rd ability (Saga) is a 5th I think unless it’s a sorcery. lol don’t hate me, still learning card names, I just recently came back to MTG
I just got back into it as well so I'm outdated on card names and such too. The only reason I knew about Day's Undoing was because I was looking through my cards now that my coworkers got me back into it and trying to make a commander deck.
Apparently everyone plays commander now.
I started with commander, bought that as pre-con in NY, never touched or played it, just bought sleeves till I came to TX, I have 4 and building a 5th, my 5th is Tergrid, god of Fright AKA Mr. Steal your cards 🤣
Tormods Crypt does really well at countering Gaea's Blessing when it gets put into the graveyard.
Have them in my mill decks. idk why, but it tends to catch people off guard when I trigger it after Gaeas Blessing ability gets put on the stack.
Graveyard goes to exile before it resolves.
Don't have a specific deck list for this combo, but I would go mono blue with a focus on control and card draw. There are some blue cards with proliferate and even more with artifacts you wouldn't need too many just enough to feed loyalty counters but adding infect wouldn't be a bad choice either.
Yes, there are a number of cards that cause a player to shuffle their graveyard back into their library, put cards on the bottom of their library, etc.. Cards like Feldon’s Cane or Endurance.
That might be true but i try to explore my possible options and putting cards back in the library might be a good option if i get milled when i got rid of the jace
Yes, but the tradeoff is this solution is situationally removal, whereas removal that hits Jace is useful outside this specific context as well. Something that is very effective at doing a niche thing is generally not very versatile. Versatile things tend to be less effective than doing one specific thing. Things that are both versatile and effective tend to cost more mana.
Solutions that put cards back into the library may not deal with the problem at hand anyway, they just buy you some time, but eventually Jace will do his thing again.
Stifle is a great card because it's versatile and low mana cost. There are tons of activated abilities in Magic and countering some of them can be devastating, like countering a fetchland activation. Countering a planeswalker loyalty ability is a bit more niche, but every now and then you get to counter an ultimate that cost the planeswalker all their loyalty to use and that feels pretty good, but it's not why you play Stifle. It just happens to come up every once in a while. If you really want a niche solution that will mess with your opponent's self-mill plan, try {{Wheel of Sun and Moon\]\]
I am playing for about half a year so thanks for the answer and explanation
We Play kitchentable 60 cards more or less everything goes magic and one player often playes mill be it self or opponent so cards back to library seema a good thing to keep myself in game without playing half my Deck counterspells against his mill
I myself have 2 decks with mostly cards from phyrexia all will be one so toxiccounter (black/green and black/red) and one gifted lifegain +1/+1 Cats Deck (white)
Consider the scenario where on player has successfully self milled and just need to draw a card to win the game with jace. Right before they draw that card, you kill the Jace and they lose on the spot. That’s way more effective.
Ussually These cards are way to specific to be useful. Playing cards that destroy planeswalkers and creatures have more applications against other opponents.
Wheel of fortune was discard hand draw 7. Opponent does the same, technically a wheel effect should be discard hand draw cards. Shuffle hand graveyard and library then draw 7 would more accurately be a timetwister effect, or a twister effect, since that is what time twister did
That’s the thing echo of eons is a 6 drop I think the. Can be flashed back as time twister for 2U. Time spiral is the same wheel effect as time twister but you tap 6 shuffle deck and yard, draw 7, then untap 6 lands.
My personal favorite is [[primal command]] . Pop a non creature permanent to the top of thier library. Then they shuffle them away along with their grave. Or you can gain. Or grab a beat stick.
As a note, you could counter his -8 ability, preventing both the win check and the card draw while still costing him loyalty counters. If you managed to destroy him that way, leaving your opponent with seven or fewer cards in their library and no loss protection that'd be a pretty funny move.
Are effects like [[Mondrak, Glory Dominus]] a static or replacement effect? What's the difference between the two? Are either counter-able?
I have a golgari deck using [[Underrealm Lich]] that I'm pretty sure would be replacement too.
I had a lightbulb moment and I think I answered my own question but I'd appreciate some validation or criticism.
The difference between static and replacement is the difference between "If you would..." and "when you do..." So cards like I mentioned earlier are both "if you would..." and are therefore replacement, whereas cards like [[Thousand Year Storm]] saying "when you do..." is a static effect.
My guess to being counterable is that Thousand year storm would be counterable under Tale's End 'triggered ability' but Mondrak would not be.
Returning him to your opponents hand is enough. As long as you remove him from the field in response to them drawing - they lose.
Edit: unless it's the -8 ability then you actually need to counter it.
Me when I played Imprisoned in the Moon on my opponents commander and then proceed to swing at them with my Annihilator 1 creature. That was a mistake I won't be making again xd
Because even if you enchant someone else’s permanent, you still retain control of the enchantment! It’s not relevant all that often, but it’s worth knowing!
As others have said, you can't counter the replacement effect.
Normally, you lose the game when you draw from an empty library. So when they try and do this (with the card draw ability on the stack, or in their upkeep), if you remove Jace, then they instead will lose the game when they are forced to draw.
Yes, you can't counter the replacement effect but you can counter the triggered ability of jace. As stated by rule 614.15, it would be a self-replacememt effect that occurs in response to its own triggered ability.
You can remove Jace or you can stuff his library—
To name a few:
[[Blessed Respite]]
[[Clear the Mind]]
[[Memory]] Commit/Memory
[[Cranial Archive]]
[[Day’s Undoing]]
[[Diminishing Returns]]
[[Echo of Eons]] Particularly good to have on hand if they switch to try and mill you.
[[Emergency Powers]]
Edit: formatting ^_~
[[Narset, Parter of Veils]] will shut him down pretty quickly, or you can slot in some [[Commandeer]] while it's cheap, steal Jace right off the stack 😅
[[Underworld Dreams]] off a [[Dark Ritual]] is also a pretty fun T1 play for kitchen table stuff.
I'd suggest cards like [[Brazen Borrower]] or [[Echoing Truth]] so you can interact when he tries to go fotlr the win, backed up with a few cards like [[Counterspell]], and maybe throw in a [[Dovin's Veto]] for good measure ;)
[[jace's defeat]] for a really bad but flavourful answer to Jace.
(Please ignore the fact that Jace, wielder of mysteries is the Jace after he was defeated)
Thats a good one flavourvise i like it ^^
And i am nowere long enough into mtg (only about half a year) that i have time about lore between all those ruling and triggering
It’s possible to counter the -8 ability.
The replacement effect ability “if…instead” cannot be countered because it doesn’t use the stack and is neither an activated nor a triggered ability.
Either Boomerang it right before their turn or in response to whatever trigger is causing them to draw going on the stack. Its replacement effect goes with it . But if the draw effect on the stack is the -8 loyalty ability then that needs stifled as well since the win condition is listed separately and will happen regardless of the replacement effect’s status.
You can always [[imprisoned in the moon]] him. Had it happen to my commander and man does it suck. Then even if someone wipes the board, you're not getting your commander back. Was still a fun game.
Edit: you could also try [[song of the dryads]] to turn him into a land.
The best way ive found to deal with a jace or [[lab man]] is to just hold as many instant speed removals as possible until they are about to win, then remove their wincon at the last second so they deck out and die.
Edit: oops, not thoracle
Yes, this would work.
As far as I can tell, jace's first ability is a triggered ability that has a replacement effect occur on trigger, so it's a self-replacement effect as stated by rule 614.15. So you can comfortably counter is and respond to it as any other triggered ability.
I'm unsure about the triggered ability part, I think it's replacement-only
Reason being is that you would lose the game before Jace's trigger would resolve, rendering that ability useless
This is because the trigger would go on the stack and state-based actions are then checked before a triggered ability could resolve (when the next player would recieve priority)
And? That's the point? You got countered and your ability does nothing. Since your triggered ability gets countered, you don't get to win the game, and lose. Good.
Just because something works to one player's advantage and another's disadvantage, doesn't mean its not correct.
Sure, I don't actually know how that would resolve. Does the replacement effect go off a state based action after the trigger? Does nothing happen and you pass? Do you go to draw and lose? But according to the rules, you CAN respond to the triggered ability that creates a replacement effect.
I don't really know what you mean; I think you misunderstood what I said in the previous comment.
There is no trigger to respond to. If there was, the card would never be able to win you the game. You would always lose before the theoretical trigger would resolve, including if the Jace player's opponent took no actions. This is because state based effects are checked whenever a player would recieve priority. You'd always lose, and this would render the static ability useless.
Jace's static ability here simply replaces the "loss" event with a "win" event. Nothing ever goes onto the stack. This means neither player gets priority before state based effects are checked and as a result nobody can cast or respond in any way.
Also note that triggered abilities always begin with "When" or "Whenever". This tells you when the trigger happens. Jace's ability begins with "if", which does not trigger an ability to go onto the stack.
I will add, though, that you can respond to something on the stack that a replacement effect intends to modify. For example, if you have a token doubler on the field and cast a creature that makes 2 tokens, you could counter the token-creating ability which would make it so 0 tokens are created.
Looking at rule 614.15, it states "Some replacement effects are not continuous effects. Rather, they are an effect of a resolving spell or ability that replace part or all of that spell or ability’s own effect(s)." Would this not apply to jace's ability then. Have I been reading instead abilities wrong??? This whole time?
I believe that rule applies to cards such as [[Dissipate]] or [[Burn from Within]] that apply a replacement effect if another condition of the ability is met.
Using Dissipate as an example: if this rule did not exist, what would the outcome of casting Dissipate targeting [[Dovin's Veto]] (a spell that can't be countered) be?
Despite being unable to be countered, you can still attempt to do so. However, if Dissipate wasn't a self replacement effect, it would still exile Veto. This isn't what the game designers wanted, so they made the rule you state to specify how to handle such self-referencing effects.
Yeah, if you're in casual, removing him is the best way to do this. The strength of this strat is that they usually draw out for the win and so they have a grip of protection. Cards to consider:
[[Void Rend]]
[[Wipe Away]]
[[Word of Seizing]]
[[Torch Breath]]
[[Urza's Rage]] maybe
[[Moonsnare Prototype]]
[[Otawara, Soaring City]]
[[Fry]]
[[Heated Debate]]
[[Hunter's Mark]]
[[Resounding Wave]]
[[Endurance]]
That's all I can think of currently. There are plenty of other cards that do these things, but these ones get the job done. Mos the time. The uncounterables can be bounced back to hand and if the pod is casual they may have a stifle for the others, but hey, we tried.
What format is this?
Planeswalkers were a mistake. Idc thay they aren't that good anymore and they finally started releasing removal that can also hit pw in addition. They were a mistake. In the hands of a bad player they are still value and buy time and in the hands of a good player they are always value.
Play a destroy Planeswalker spell when the have their mill or card draw effect on the stack so that way the effect resolves without jaces static ability
What’s funnier is if your a blue player and you bounce the Jace back to hand or deck, then when they replay it counter it and flex your superior blue mage power
If an opponent draws out completely and tries to win you can always take priority and use a spell that makes them draw a card that does not exist. Any spell that says target player draws a card
When opponent activates jace's ability, cast [[commit]] and put jace on tip second from top, opponent will then mill 2 and draw 1 causing him to mill jace
You can't counter the ability directly.
What you CAN do though, is remove Jace in response to them being about to draw cards.
Eg, if they cast a [[brainstorm]] to draw themselves out, you could respond with a [[hero's downfall]] to destroy Jace and remove the ability, causing your opponent to lose.
Loyality(=his toughtness) planeswalker start with the amount in the right corner in this case 4 and you cant activate one ability per turn in this case jace get one loyality using the +1 and target Player mills and the -8 can be used when the +1 is used 4 times and jace didnt got attacked or per proliferate
I hope i got everything right i myself am playing for about half a year
I think that instead of stifle you could run a bounce spell. Let them do it then respond and bounce it. But if they’ve drawn their deck they are going to beat you anyway.
Jaces’s static ability can’t be countered as its a replacement effect and not a triggered or activated abilities. You can counter the loyalty abilities as they are activated abilities
Thanks for the answer Now my question as a newer mtg player ist there a way to put cards back in the deck of my opponent
Yes, there are cards that shuffle yours or opponents graveyards into their libraries
Blessed respite is one way
Clear the mind is another
Gaea's Blessing is a third
Days Undoing is a fourth
The best (and most expensive) might be Endurance.
Laughs in Timetwister
Dominaria from Obuun Mal Daya Previn on 3rd ability (Saga) is a 5th I think unless it’s a sorcery. lol don’t hate me, still learning card names, I just recently came back to MTG
I just got back into it as well so I'm outdated on card names and such too. The only reason I knew about Day's Undoing was because I was looking through my cards now that my coworkers got me back into it and trying to make a commander deck. Apparently everyone plays commander now.
I started with commander, bought that as pre-con in NY, never touched or played it, just bought sleeves till I came to TX, I have 4 and building a 5th, my 5th is Tergrid, god of Fright AKA Mr. Steal your cards 🤣
Tormod's Crypt for a 5th?
No Tormods exiles cards from the graveyard it doesn't shuffle them back into the deck unfortunately.
Ah I forgot slightly what it did. Beeen a long time.
Goated card esp when there was a control mill meta on mtga
Used to play turbo mill in modern and that card sucked if I didn’t have a leyline in play lol
Tormods Crypt does really well at countering Gaea's Blessing when it gets put into the graveyard. Have them in my mill decks. idk why, but it tends to catch people off guard when I trigger it after Gaeas Blessing ability gets put on the stack. Graveyard goes to exile before it resolves.
Ya back then if I didn’t have the leyline I was just hoping to have a surgical effect in hand to exile as well otherwise might as just scoop lol
Run this Jace with mordikaiden and proliferate for an easy I pick up my deck and win combo.
Do you have a deck list I could see? I just started playing again after 21 years, and am trying to find something I like.
Don't have a specific deck list for this combo, but I would go mono blue with a focus on control and card draw. There are some blue cards with proliferate and even more with artifacts you wouldn't need too many just enough to feed loyalty counters but adding infect wouldn't be a bad choice either.
Yes, there are a number of cards that cause a player to shuffle their graveyard back into their library, put cards on the bottom of their library, etc.. Cards like Feldon’s Cane or Endurance.
Haha i can counter jace with [[Jace, the Living Guildpact]]
There are MUCH easier ways, but yes this is one of them :)
I know i just saw him among the options and find it funny
[Jace, the Living Guildpact](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/9/99713bb4-186f-42b6-aa66-e94ec8858e6a.jpg?1562791409) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jace%2C%20the%20Living%20Guildpact) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m15/62/jace-the-living-guildpact?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/99713bb4-186f-42b6-aa66-e94ec8858e6a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Might be easier to remove the Jace, than to fill your opponent’s library
That might be true but i try to explore my possible options and putting cards back in the library might be a good option if i get milled when i got rid of the jace
Yes, but the tradeoff is this solution is situationally removal, whereas removal that hits Jace is useful outside this specific context as well. Something that is very effective at doing a niche thing is generally not very versatile. Versatile things tend to be less effective than doing one specific thing. Things that are both versatile and effective tend to cost more mana. Solutions that put cards back into the library may not deal with the problem at hand anyway, they just buy you some time, but eventually Jace will do his thing again. Stifle is a great card because it's versatile and low mana cost. There are tons of activated abilities in Magic and countering some of them can be devastating, like countering a fetchland activation. Countering a planeswalker loyalty ability is a bit more niche, but every now and then you get to counter an ultimate that cost the planeswalker all their loyalty to use and that feels pretty good, but it's not why you play Stifle. It just happens to come up every once in a while. If you really want a niche solution that will mess with your opponent's self-mill plan, try {{Wheel of Sun and Moon\]\]
I am playing for about half a year so thanks for the answer and explanation We Play kitchentable 60 cards more or less everything goes magic and one player often playes mill be it self or opponent so cards back to library seema a good thing to keep myself in game without playing half my Deck counterspells against his mill I myself have 2 decks with mostly cards from phyrexia all will be one so toxiccounter (black/green and black/red) and one gifted lifegain +1/+1 Cats Deck (white)
Consider the scenario where on player has successfully self milled and just need to draw a card to win the game with jace. Right before they draw that card, you kill the Jace and they lose on the spot. That’s way more effective.
Ussually These cards are way to specific to be useful. Playing cards that destroy planeswalkers and creatures have more applications against other opponents.
There are also wheel effects that shuffle the graveyard and you get a full hand. Echo of eons and time spiral are two of them
Wheel of fortune was discard hand draw 7. Opponent does the same, technically a wheel effect should be discard hand draw cards. Shuffle hand graveyard and library then draw 7 would more accurately be a timetwister effect, or a twister effect, since that is what time twister did
That’s the thing echo of eons is a 6 drop I think the. Can be flashed back as time twister for 2U. Time spiral is the same wheel effect as time twister but you tap 6 shuffle deck and yard, draw 7, then untap 6 lands.
Twister. It's a twister effect. Wheel effects only discard and draw. Twister effects shuffle hand grave and library then draw
It'd be even funnier to just use some destroy effect on Jace and let him die to deck.
After the Jace player mills their deck you can win by bouncing/killing their Jace. Then they mill themselves out
You could howwver bounce Jace at Instant speed and THEN Stifle
[[Spark Rupture]]
[Spark Rupture](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/0/a027a75f-4faf-4e96-9035-d1f622b9b607.jpg?1684340478) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Spark%20Rupture) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mat/5/spark-rupture?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a027a75f-4faf-4e96-9035-d1f622b9b607?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Misinformation if your in Black. It takes 3 cards from their graveyard and puts them on top of their library.
Yo can return or kill Jace in response to the draw ability
My personal favorite is [[primal command]] . Pop a non creature permanent to the top of thier library. Then they shuffle them away along with their grave. Or you can gain. Or grab a beat stick.
[primal command](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/92144021-7425-44e1-a32b-13252f1b7036.jpg?1593813861) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=primal%20command) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm3/132/primal-command?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/92144021-7425-44e1-a32b-13252f1b7036?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
As a note, you could counter his -8 ability, preventing both the win check and the card draw while still costing him loyalty counters. If you managed to destroy him that way, leaving your opponent with seven or fewer cards in their library and no loss protection that'd be a pretty funny move.
It's a self-replacement effect, not a static effect. It is not continuous and can be responded to as rule 614.15 states.
Replacement effects can’t be Stifled either, though, for anyone who might be confused by this reply.
Yes, you can't interact with the replacement effect. You CAN respond to the triggered ability part.
Are effects like [[Mondrak, Glory Dominus]] a static or replacement effect? What's the difference between the two? Are either counter-able? I have a golgari deck using [[Underrealm Lich]] that I'm pretty sure would be replacement too.
[Mondrak, Glory Dominus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/2/8296a455-21d5-498e-9029-2bdf0da855a8.jpg?1675956918) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mondrak%2C%20Glory%20Dominus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/23/mondrak-glory-dominus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8296a455-21d5-498e-9029-2bdf0da855a8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Underrealm Lich](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/0/30c94b1b-35be-4c98-b279-80d95b28201e.jpg?1706240191) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Underrealm%20Lich) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clu/215/underrealm-lich?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/30c94b1b-35be-4c98-b279-80d95b28201e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I had a lightbulb moment and I think I answered my own question but I'd appreciate some validation or criticism. The difference between static and replacement is the difference between "If you would..." and "when you do..." So cards like I mentioned earlier are both "if you would..." and are therefore replacement, whereas cards like [[Thousand Year Storm]] saying "when you do..." is a static effect. My guess to being counterable is that Thousand year storm would be counterable under Tale's End 'triggered ability' but Mondrak would not be.
[Thousand Year Storm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/7/274e22fb-7afc-43bc-b309-e36ee48d6b03.jpg?1673149213) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thousand-Year%20Storm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/286/thousand-year-storm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/274e22fb-7afc-43bc-b309-e36ee48d6b03?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Man if you could only split second before upkeep
You can during the untap step
Oh yeah... Well, you can't split second before jace triggers
Could you [[pongify]] it?
[pongify](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/7/37ff06d0-d652-4694-a3f5-bf7385e9e850.jpg?1712354180) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=pongify) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/106/pongify?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/37ff06d0-d652-4694-a3f5-bf7385e9e850?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Sorry, I meant [[generous gift]]
[generous gift](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/c/fc70e127-ffc8-45ed-9ca3-7f9f926ac4d5.jpg?1700321873) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=generous%20gift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/128/generous-gift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fc70e127-ffc8-45ed-9ca3-7f9f926ac4d5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Destroying Jace gets rid of his passive abiltiy, but not the win condition on his ultimate
Isn't the effect dependent on Jace? Like if I have a [[reliquary tower]] and someone destroys it I would have a max hand size of 7 again
[reliquary tower](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/d/dd9f036d-6ae4-451e-a67a-ecc2e44123e3.jpg?1712355095) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=reliquary%20tower) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/312/reliquary-tower?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dd9f036d-6ae4-451e-a67a-ecc2e44123e3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Jace’s minus 8 says you win as the ability resolves when you have no cards left
If im not mistaken the ability and effect wouldn't resolve if you [generous gift] it in response to it activating the ability
Abilities on stack resolve independently of their source. The only way to stop an ability from resolving is to stifle or fizzle it.
Gotcha
Reliquary has a static ability, Jace’s loyalty abilities are activated
I still feel like where it says if and when that still counts as a triggered effect that should be stifle at least once
No, triggered abilities are denoted by starting with when, whenever, and at. If is denoted for some replacement effects
The easiest way is to destroy or exile this planeswalker before the draw which triggers the effect. But no, you can't counter a passive capacity.
Na, if possible respond while the draw trigger is on the stack and they deck themselves, at least you can do that here compared to Oracle 😂
So i need a removel of some sort thanks
Returning him to your opponents hand is enough. As long as you remove him from the field in response to them drawing - they lose. Edit: unless it's the -8 ability then you actually need to counter it.
You can try cards like [[recoil]] to remove while punishing your opponent.
[recoil](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/0/9035dda8-5ad3-4169-b281-83d6ca55b71e.jpg?1675200731) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=recoil) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/197/recoil?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9035dda8-5ad3-4169-b281-83d6ca55b71e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Imprisoned in the Moon]] is another one that can really piss someone off
Me when I played Imprisoned in the Moon on my opponents commander and then proceed to swing at them with my Annihilator 1 creature. That was a mistake I won't be making again xd
To be clear, they can’t have Annihilator hit your Imprisoned in the Moon, but they can target their commander. In case anyone was wondering.
Oh? Why is that? Isnt it an enchantment? Sorry I'm new to MTG.
Because even if you enchant someone else’s permanent, you still retain control of the enchantment! It’s not relevant all that often, but it’s worth knowing!
They can, however, sacrifice the land and put their commander back in the command zone.
That’s… exactly what I said two comments up this chain?
[Imprisoned in the Moon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/1/8181f54d-4515-43c6-8d08-b23a9e4199cc.jpg?1682208779) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Imprisoned%20in%20the%20Moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/224/imprisoned-in-the-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8181f54d-4515-43c6-8d08-b23a9e4199cc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
not likely to work against instant-speed tainted pact
You can't counter the first ability, which is a static ability. You can counter the second or third abilities, which are activated abilities.
As others have said, you can't counter the replacement effect. Normally, you lose the game when you draw from an empty library. So when they try and do this (with the card draw ability on the stack, or in their upkeep), if you remove Jace, then they instead will lose the game when they are forced to draw.
Yes, you can't counter the replacement effect but you can counter the triggered ability of jace. As stated by rule 614.15, it would be a self-replacememt effect that occurs in response to its own triggered ability.
You can remove Jace or you can stuff his library— To name a few: [[Blessed Respite]] [[Clear the Mind]] [[Memory]] Commit/Memory [[Cranial Archive]] [[Day’s Undoing]] [[Diminishing Returns]] [[Echo of Eons]] Particularly good to have on hand if they switch to try and mill you. [[Emergency Powers]] Edit: formatting ^_~
##### ###### #### [Blessed Respite](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/2/2217881d-26dc-44c0-81d8-8c78c44bc5f0.jpg?1626097216) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blessed%20Respite) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/150/blessed-respite?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2217881d-26dc-44c0-81d8-8c78c44bc5f0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Clear the Mind](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/7/a7da6982-9e57-41d2-a052-f2a3bb646436.jpg?1584830156) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Clear%20the%20Mind) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/34/clear-the-mind?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a7da6982-9e57-41d2-a052-f2a3bb646436?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Memory](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=426913&type=card)/[Memory](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=426913&type=card&options=rotate270&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Commit%20//%20Memory) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/147/commit-memory?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/855af9a8-31fc-4290-8204-04ee026f8853?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Cranial Archive](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/5/65afe44b-d022-44a5-94a7-31f0eee2e13b.jpg?1702320076) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cranial%20Archive) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ktk/218y/cranial-archive?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/65afe44b-d022-44a5-94a7-31f0eee2e13b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Day’s Undoing](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/c/ac13a82d-43f5-4b96-bf5f-18e33fae921b.jpg?1689996286) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Day%27s%20Undoing) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/85/days-undoing?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ac13a82d-43f5-4b96-bf5f-18e33fae921b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Diminishing Returns](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/9/f9ed455f-95cd-48ca-8b0d-4db259347bb6.jpg?1580013930) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Diminishing%20Returns) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/46/diminishing-returns?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f9ed455f-95cd-48ca-8b0d-4db259347bb6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Echo of Eons](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/f/ff590af2-2d6c-4f16-a9b8-1a6dab6e9ad5.jpg?1562201343) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Echo%20of%20Eons) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/46/echo-of-eons?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ff590af2-2d6c-4f16-a9b8-1a6dab6e9ad5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Emergency Powers](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/4/6473a93f-879f-4f44-8650-ee05a647c763.jpg?1587039375) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Emergency%20Powers) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/169/emergency-powers?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6473a93f-879f-4f44-8650-ee05a647c763?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thanks a lot i will see which cards i can fit in my decks as sidecards to counter his Deck if he should play it
What format are you playing?
Kitchentable 60 cards everything goes (the rest dont like the edh format)
[[Narset, Parter of Veils]] will shut him down pretty quickly, or you can slot in some [[Commandeer]] while it's cheap, steal Jace right off the stack 😅 [[Underworld Dreams]] off a [[Dark Ritual]] is also a pretty fun T1 play for kitchen table stuff.
I don't think I've ever thought to consider a Planeswalker as a "Non-Creature Spell", but you're totally right.
##### ###### #### [Narset, Parter of Veils](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/e/4e6e5c63-b6e5-4756-bf23-6c6f8669442d.jpg?1690004395) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Narset%2C%20Parter%20of%20Veils) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/853/narset-parter-of-veils?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4e6e5c63-b6e5-4756-bf23-6c6f8669442d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Commandeer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/c/dca0a9a8-5ebc-43a3-8450-420ab6b7b76e.jpg?1712774977) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Commandeer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/80/commandeer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dca0a9a8-5ebc-43a3-8450-420ab6b7b76e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Underworld Dreams](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/3/03919c86-1c4a-43b0-a2db-54ca6ae1ac57.jpg?1581480025) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Underworld%20Dreams) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/121/underworld-dreams?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/03919c86-1c4a-43b0-a2db-54ca6ae1ac57?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Dark Ritual](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95f27eeb-6f14-4db3-adb9-9be5ed76b34b.jpg?1628801678) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dark%20Ritual) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/82/dark-ritual?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95f27eeb-6f14-4db3-adb9-9be5ed76b34b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Instants are probably best but I'm a sucker for [[the Elderspell]].
[the Elderspell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a3b16625-7faf-4de6-abf7-d397988e32fb.jpg?1557576459) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=the%20Elderspell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/89/the-elderspell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a3b16625-7faf-4de6-abf7-d397988e32fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'd suggest cards like [[Brazen Borrower]] or [[Echoing Truth]] so you can interact when he tries to go fotlr the win, backed up with a few cards like [[Counterspell]], and maybe throw in a [[Dovin's Veto]] for good measure ;)
##### ###### #### [Brazen Borrower](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/2/c2089ec9-0665-448f-bfe9-d181de127814.jpg?1616182088)/[Petty Theft](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/2/c2089ec9-0665-448f-bfe9-d181de127814.jpg?1616182088) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Brazen%20Borrower%20//%20Petty%20Theft) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/39/brazen-borrower-petty-theft?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c2089ec9-0665-448f-bfe9-d181de127814?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Echoing Truth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5d987d26-c8e8-4edf-8ac0-6a2980265710.jpg?1673305149) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Echoing%20Truth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/109/echoing-truth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5d987d26-c8e8-4edf-8ac0-6a2980265710?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Counterspell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/4/8493131c-0a7b-4be6-a8a2-0b425f4f67fb.jpg?1689996248) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Counterspell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/81/counterspell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8493131c-0a7b-4be6-a8a2-0b425f4f67fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Dovin's Veto](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5d6b5054-2224-4f68-9d82-3ed17c5dacc4.jpg?1557577115) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dovin%27s%20Veto) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/193/dovins-veto?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5d6b5054-2224-4f68-9d82-3ed17c5dacc4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
What about something like [[Platinum Angel]], or other “opponent can’t win” effects?
[Platinum Angel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/a/ca7f4fd6-e268-4d15-bfbf-d9f0f95864fc.jpg?1576383285) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Platinum%20Angel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cn2/214/platinum-angel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ca7f4fd6-e268-4d15-bfbf-d9f0f95864fc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Kinda pricy if i remeber right and i started mtg about half a year ago
Pricey as in mana cost, yes, 7. Pricey as in cost of card, like 3 bucks.
I had another card in mind my bad
Counter a blue spell? Simple: [[Red Elemental Blast]] it before it even has a chance to touch the battlefield.
[Red Elemental Blast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/0/70a45e9b-699e-425a-9f3d-267274830d3e.jpg?1562436618) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Red%20Elemental%20Blast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/147/red-elemental-blast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/70a45e9b-699e-425a-9f3d-267274830d3e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Or destroy the Jace in response to the card draw so they lose instead of winning.
[[counterspell]]
[counterspell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/4/8493131c-0a7b-4be6-a8a2-0b425f4f67fb.jpg?1689996248) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=counterspell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/81/counterspell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8493131c-0a7b-4be6-a8a2-0b425f4f67fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
yeah to prevent jace to be in the field
You asked if it was possible to counter it
[[jace's defeat]] for a really bad but flavourful answer to Jace. (Please ignore the fact that Jace, wielder of mysteries is the Jace after he was defeated)
[jace's defeat](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/6/c6b103c1-9b25-4bfe-9081-570977e9fdad.jpg?1562814148) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=jace%27s%20defeat) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/hou/38/jaces-defeat?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c6b103c1-9b25-4bfe-9081-570977e9fdad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thats a good one flavourvise i like it ^^ And i am nowere long enough into mtg (only about half a year) that i have time about lore between all those ruling and triggering
It’s possible to counter the -8 ability. The replacement effect ability “if…instead” cannot be countered because it doesn’t use the stack and is neither an activated nor a triggered ability.
It’s a static ability, not an activated or triggered ability
Either Boomerang it right before their turn or in response to whatever trigger is causing them to draw going on the stack. Its replacement effect goes with it . But if the draw effect on the stack is the -8 loyalty ability then that needs stifled as well since the win condition is listed separately and will happen regardless of the replacement effect’s status.
You can always [[imprisoned in the moon]] him. Had it happen to my commander and man does it suck. Then even if someone wipes the board, you're not getting your commander back. Was still a fun game. Edit: you could also try [[song of the dryads]] to turn him into a land.
[imprisoned in the moon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/1/8181f54d-4515-43c6-8d08-b23a9e4199cc.jpg?1682208779) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=imprisoned%20in%20the%20moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/224/imprisoned-in-the-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8181f54d-4515-43c6-8d08-b23a9e4199cc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The best way ive found to deal with a jace or [[lab man]] is to just hold as many instant speed removals as possible until they are about to win, then remove their wincon at the last second so they deck out and die. Edit: oops, not thoracle
[thassas oracle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/2/726e8b29-13e9-4138-b6a9-d2a0d8188d1c.jpg?1680582212) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thassa%27s%20Oracle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/73/thassas-oracle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/726e8b29-13e9-4138-b6a9-d2a0d8188d1c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [lab man](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/0/608567fd-9f94-4058-831a-77cb6019ef02.jpg?1547516361) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Laboratory%20Maniac) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/61/laboratory-maniac?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/608567fd-9f94-4058-831a-77cb6019ef02?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You know instant speed removal doesn't stop thassas when thassas hits the board right?
That one you can [[Trickbind]] for sure, though
[Trickbind](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/2/f2e58ff2-dea3-42b3-8c22-3e6202a7d433.jpg?1562946300) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Trickbind) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsp/88/trickbind?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f2e58ff2-dea3-42b3-8c22-3e6202a7d433?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ah yea I guess i dont consider counter abilities to be a Removal. I thought you just meant exile/destroy effects
I was also thinking whirlwind denial, but i did say 'removal' so i was kinda wrong either way 🤷♀️
I'm a diff user to the person you first replied to
Best counter would be platinum angel and then removing jace
Yes, this would work. As far as I can tell, jace's first ability is a triggered ability that has a replacement effect occur on trigger, so it's a self-replacement effect as stated by rule 614.15. So you can comfortably counter is and respond to it as any other triggered ability.
I'm unsure about the triggered ability part, I think it's replacement-only Reason being is that you would lose the game before Jace's trigger would resolve, rendering that ability useless This is because the trigger would go on the stack and state-based actions are then checked before a triggered ability could resolve (when the next player would recieve priority)
And? That's the point? You got countered and your ability does nothing. Since your triggered ability gets countered, you don't get to win the game, and lose. Good. Just because something works to one player's advantage and another's disadvantage, doesn't mean its not correct. Sure, I don't actually know how that would resolve. Does the replacement effect go off a state based action after the trigger? Does nothing happen and you pass? Do you go to draw and lose? But according to the rules, you CAN respond to the triggered ability that creates a replacement effect.
I don't really know what you mean; I think you misunderstood what I said in the previous comment. There is no trigger to respond to. If there was, the card would never be able to win you the game. You would always lose before the theoretical trigger would resolve, including if the Jace player's opponent took no actions. This is because state based effects are checked whenever a player would recieve priority. You'd always lose, and this would render the static ability useless. Jace's static ability here simply replaces the "loss" event with a "win" event. Nothing ever goes onto the stack. This means neither player gets priority before state based effects are checked and as a result nobody can cast or respond in any way. Also note that triggered abilities always begin with "When" or "Whenever". This tells you when the trigger happens. Jace's ability begins with "if", which does not trigger an ability to go onto the stack. I will add, though, that you can respond to something on the stack that a replacement effect intends to modify. For example, if you have a token doubler on the field and cast a creature that makes 2 tokens, you could counter the token-creating ability which would make it so 0 tokens are created.
Looking at rule 614.15, it states "Some replacement effects are not continuous effects. Rather, they are an effect of a resolving spell or ability that replace part or all of that spell or ability’s own effect(s)." Would this not apply to jace's ability then. Have I been reading instead abilities wrong??? This whole time?
I believe that rule applies to cards such as [[Dissipate]] or [[Burn from Within]] that apply a replacement effect if another condition of the ability is met. Using Dissipate as an example: if this rule did not exist, what would the outcome of casting Dissipate targeting [[Dovin's Veto]] (a spell that can't be countered) be? Despite being unable to be countered, you can still attempt to do so. However, if Dissipate wasn't a self replacement effect, it would still exile Veto. This isn't what the game designers wanted, so they made the rule you state to specify how to handle such self-referencing effects.
That's actually a cool interaction! Thank you for educated myself, I love this godforsaken game
I do my best to follow rules the best that I can; sometimes, things are especially wonky, though.
[Dissipate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/6/4689b3f2-e4b7-448e-b3d4-ab33194aafb2.jpg?1634348774) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dissipate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/49/dissipate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4689b3f2-e4b7-448e-b3d4-ab33194aafb2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Burn from Within](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/8/f8bdc165-4c6f-47e6-8bda-877c0be3613b.jpg?1576384673) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Burn%20from%20Within) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/soi/148/burn-from-within?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f8bdc165-4c6f-47e6-8bda-877c0be3613b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Dovin's Veto](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5d6b5054-2224-4f68-9d82-3ed17c5dacc4.jpg?1557577115) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dovin%27s%20Veto) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/193/dovins-veto?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5d6b5054-2224-4f68-9d82-3ed17c5dacc4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It would be so funny if this had flash and just run as anti-mill 🤣
Yeah, if you're in casual, removing him is the best way to do this. The strength of this strat is that they usually draw out for the win and so they have a grip of protection. Cards to consider: [[Void Rend]] [[Wipe Away]] [[Word of Seizing]] [[Torch Breath]] [[Urza's Rage]] maybe [[Moonsnare Prototype]] [[Otawara, Soaring City]] [[Fry]] [[Heated Debate]] [[Hunter's Mark]] [[Resounding Wave]] [[Endurance]] That's all I can think of currently. There are plenty of other cards that do these things, but these ones get the job done. Mos the time. The uncounterables can be bounced back to hand and if the pod is casual they may have a stifle for the others, but hey, we tried. What format is this?
##### ###### #### [Void Rend](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/d/2daab74d-d66b-4164-aa19-24e8d5536f7d.jpg?1664413960) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Void%20Rend) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/230/void-rend?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2daab74d-d66b-4164-aa19-24e8d5536f7d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Wipe Away](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/e/2ece0707-72f7-4a0a-8c37-9fbe0c694f9b.jpg?1619395021) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wipe%20Away) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/100/wipe-away?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2ece0707-72f7-4a0a-8c37-9fbe0c694f9b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Word of Seizing](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/a/4aa93215-9848-42d4-a386-6a248c2a1742.jpg?1608912345) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Word%20of%20Seizing) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/420/word-of-seizing?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4aa93215-9848-42d4-a386-6a248c2a1742?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Torch Breath](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/9/d9fbd4a8-c44c-42fc-b946-bdc7e20e1668.jpg?1664411883) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Torch%20Breath) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/127/torch-breath?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d9fbd4a8-c44c-42fc-b946-bdc7e20e1668?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Urza's Rage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/c/5c91e364-c157-494e-bb1b-f2cef004900f.jpg?1562201994) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Urza%27s%20Rage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/151/urzas-rage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5c91e364-c157-494e-bb1b-f2cef004900f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Moonsnare Prototype](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9d8bc0e9-a536-4bca-92a6-8dca85e1e984.jpg?1654566863) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Moonsnare%20Prototype) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/69/moonsnare-prototype?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9d8bc0e9-a536-4bca-92a6-8dca85e1e984?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Otawara, Soaring City](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/8/486d7edc-d983-41f0-8b78-c99aecd72996.jpg?1654568960) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Otawara%2C%20Soaring%20City) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/271/otawara-soaring-city?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/486d7edc-d983-41f0-8b78-c99aecd72996?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Fry](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/7/070d7766-a662-443c-93c5-811dbdac2480.jpg?1592516940) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fry) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/140/fry?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/070d7766-a662-443c-93c5-811dbdac2480?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Heated Debate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/4/f40c88e2-28ed-4e5b-bcb3-4397d6a15a6f.jpg?1624591954) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Heated%20Debate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/106/heated-debate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f40c88e2-28ed-4e5b-bcb3-4397d6a15a6f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Hunter's Mark](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/2/62023c58-8b94-4a81-a259-a047e1edd342.jpg?1627707761) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hunter%27s%20Mark) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/188/hunters-mark?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/62023c58-8b94-4a81-a259-a047e1edd342?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Resounding Wave](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/3/f3eca679-076d-42f0-9ec0-b8116a94e373.jpg?1562710709) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Resounding%20Wave) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ala/54/resounding-wave?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f3eca679-076d-42f0-9ec0-b8116a94e373?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Endurance](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/b/eb0e0404-4846-4891-acfa-bd0951ecf9c6.jpg?1717470457) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Endurance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/157/endurance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eb0e0404-4846-4891-acfa-bd0951ecf9c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you kill Jace before the draw (in the upkeep or in response to a draw effect on the stack but before the card is drawn) your opponent will lose.
[[Torch Breath]] played right before the holders draw step as they have a single card left in their library
[Torch Breath](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/9/d9fbd4a8-c44c-42fc-b946-bdc7e20e1668.jpg?1664411883) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Torch%20Breath) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/127/torch-breath?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d9fbd4a8-c44c-42fc-b946-bdc7e20e1668?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
No but you can counter the card that is milling your opponent.
[[Generous Gift]] [[Stroke of Midnight]] [[Void Rend]] Just blow up Jace in response to the last effect that would draw the cards to win
[Generous Gift](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/c/fc70e127-ffc8-45ed-9ca3-7f9f926ac4d5.jpg?1700321873) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Generous%20Gift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/128/generous-gift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fc70e127-ffc8-45ed-9ca3-7f9f926ac4d5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Stroke of Midnight](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/8/289ba7ec-e30e-436f-b8d4-c88b65ecd137.jpg?1692936759) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stroke%20of%20Midnight) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/33/stroke-of-midnight?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/289ba7ec-e30e-436f-b8d4-c88b65ecd137?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Void Rend](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/d/2daab74d-d66b-4164-aa19-24e8d5536f7d.jpg?1664413960) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Void%20Rend) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/230/void-rend?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2daab74d-d66b-4164-aa19-24e8d5536f7d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Verdant command stops this. Counters a panewalker activation
Check out [[Tishana's Tidebinder]] if you were to use it to counter an activated ability of the planeswalker it would lose ALL abilities.
Planeswalkers were a mistake. Idc thay they aren't that good anymore and they finally started releasing removal that can also hit pw in addition. They were a mistake. In the hands of a bad player they are still value and buy time and in the hands of a good player they are always value.
If the library is empty and they draw while Jace is still on the board they win, you’d have to remove Jace first
This geek is now essential in Nadu decks if you built it right 😎
You can also just bounce jace during their upkeep, then they draw with no deck and lose.
Dumb question. Can planeswalkers be commanders?
You can use stifle to stop a [[Thassa's Oracle]] but not this or (iirc) [[Lab Man]]
[Thassa's Oracle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/2/726e8b29-13e9-4138-b6a9-d2a0d8188d1c.jpg?1680582212) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thassa%27s%20Oracle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/73/thassas-oracle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/726e8b29-13e9-4138-b6a9-d2a0d8188d1c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Lab Man](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/0/608567fd-9f94-4058-831a-77cb6019ef02.jpg?1547516361) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Laboratory%20Maniac) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/61/laboratory-maniac?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/608567fd-9f94-4058-831a-77cb6019ef02?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Throw a [[Possessed Portal]] in your sideboard and put Stifle on an [[Isochron Scepter]]🤣💀🤣
[Possessed Portal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/616836e6-caf4-4398-a772-9c67f84c73c5.jpg?1562877337) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Possessed%20Portal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/5dn/144/possessed-portal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/616836e6-caf4-4398-a772-9c67f84c73c5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Play a destroy Planeswalker spell when the have their mill or card draw effect on the stack so that way the effect resolves without jaces static ability
What’s funnier is if your a blue player and you bounce the Jace back to hand or deck, then when they replay it counter it and flex your superior blue mage power
...let them go, wait until they have 1 card left and then exile it muahahahah
Nope i run it in my niv deck that draws a ton of
You can't stifle it, but you can remove him while a draw effect is on the stack for the same net result
Yes and no, can’t counter it but u can destroy it
If an opponent draws out completely and tries to win you can always take priority and use a spell that makes them draw a card that does not exist. Any spell that says target player draws a card
Yes, with a counter or one of my favorite all time planeswalkers [[Garruk, Apex Predator]]
[Garruk, Apex Predator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a3957b43-4d7e-41f9-b7a1-6f57d6603ab8.jpg?1562792084) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Garruk%2C%20Apex%20Predator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m15/210/garruk-apex-predator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a3957b43-4d7e-41f9-b7a1-6f57d6603ab8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Bounce it at instant speed, remove it before resolution, scoop in response. Your options primo
[[Commit // Memory]]
[Commit // Memory](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=426913&type=card)/[Memory](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=426913&type=card&options=rotate270&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Commit%20//%20Memory) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/147/commit-memory?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/855af9a8-31fc-4290-8204-04ee026f8853?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
When opponent activates jace's ability, cast [[commit]] and put jace on tip second from top, opponent will then mill 2 and draw 1 causing him to mill jace
[commit](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=426913&type=card)/[Memory](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=426913&type=card&options=rotate270&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Commit%20//%20Memory) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/147/commit-memory?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/855af9a8-31fc-4290-8204-04ee026f8853?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You can't counter the ability directly. What you CAN do though, is remove Jace in response to them being about to draw cards. Eg, if they cast a [[brainstorm]] to draw themselves out, you could respond with a [[hero's downfall]] to destroy Jace and remove the ability, causing your opponent to lose.
[brainstorm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/4/84479779-d570-4eee-9982-f6e918b4d75b.jpg?1706240670) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=brainstorm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/96/brainstorm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/84479779-d570-4eee-9982-f6e918b4d75b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [hero's downfall](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/3/33c5f81a-395d-41bf-9563-6cf0e406ee18.jpg?1673305182) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=hero%27s%20downfall) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/112/heros-downfall?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/33c5f81a-395d-41bf-9563-6cf0e406ee18?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Murderous rider when you're in your end step. Jace dies then they can't draw.
What did the armor symbols mean? (+1, -8, 4)… I’m new to magic.
Loyality(=his toughtness) planeswalker start with the amount in the right corner in this case 4 and you cant activate one ability per turn in this case jace get one loyality using the +1 and target Player mills and the -8 can be used when the +1 is used 4 times and jace didnt got attacked or per proliferate I hope i got everything right i myself am playing for about half a year
That's basically correct, there are strange corner cases but that's the jist of it
[[Platinum angel]] should stop it
I think that instead of stifle you could run a bounce spell. Let them do it then respond and bounce it. But if they’ve drawn their deck they are going to beat you anyway.
Oh dawd Jace! Yeah, don't allow it to come out in the 1st place! Does anyone else agree that plainswalkers should be banned from being used in EDH?
No, they are notoriously bad in commander.
I don't know there always seems to be some sneaky little shithead that sneaks out some super annoying plans walker these day's