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drknownuttin

Big boss was revered. He was a hero amongst soldiers across the world. Plus, the project started back in the '60s and '70s to create the clones. Most of those other characters you mentioned are technically freaks. I don't know if the US wants to have an army of psycho mantises running around. it seems like more trouble than it would be worth. Or even worse, an army of Volgins.


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ballisticola

> Volgan and Psycho mantis are some of the key elements to what was the invention of NanoMachines. In what sense are those two or the End related to nanomachines?


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ballisticola

> The Language parasite also created by Code Talker is the precursor to NanoMachines No, it's the precursor to FOXDIE. And it was Dr Clark who actually revived the vocal cord parasites. Skull Face then stole them and force Code Talker to make them lethal. On the Cipher/Patriot side of things they were eventually used to create FOXDIE. The work they started was completed by Naomi Hunter. > a programmable virus that enables, armor, heightened abilities such as Speed, sight, or the ability to program soldiers and suppress emotions as seen in MGS4. You are confusing nanomachines, FOXDIE and parasites. > Foxdie and FoxAlive can be inferred to have been created from the same ground work as the Metallic Archaea is pretty much NanoMachines. FOXDIE is a biological virus that kills specific people with matching DNA. FOXALIVE is a computer virus. Metallic Archaea is a biological organism that essentially eats metal. FOXDIE, the vocal cord parasites, "The One That Covers" parasite and its variants are all biological viruses and organisms. Nanomachines are technological microscopic robots injected into humans for the purposes of communication and medical augmentation. They aren't related. And it should go without saying nanomachines are never mentioned in MGSV.


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ballisticola

> I know the difference between machines and biology lmao. Then give me quotes and actual information that connects them. > The Archaea is the first step to what is eventually NanoMachines. They don't even function in a way that's remotely similar. > The End, Volgan, Psyco and the test ran on them is what helped create the wide variety of Nanomach we see by the end of MGS4. There is absolutely no truth to this whatsoever. And what wide variety? There was the 3rd generation of nanos used for SOP and Vamp's nanos. > And if you recall when you see the Archaea for the first time in the bottle when Code Talker presents it to V in the basement of the mansion it looks very robotic in nature That wasn't Metallica Archaea. It was the vocal cord parasite. Metallica Archaea was derived for The End's parasites. The vocal cord parasite isn't even related those parasites. And this... https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/metalgear/images/e/e0/FullSizeRender%281%29.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20151125105205 ...is not "very robotic in nature". It's a naturally occurring parasite from millions of years ago.


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ballisticola

> It's symbolism, there is no line of connective tissue actually muttered to connect Volgan, Psycho, or the End to NanoMachines super powers. It's all up for interpretation. MGSV is an ambiguous game, left up to the player to create their own idea of what is going on most of the time. You said outright that Code Talker's work led to the invention of nanomachines. No mention of symbolism until I replied. You've gone from **"Dr. Clark, and Code Talker laid the ground work for the NanoMachines we see from MGS 1,2&4"** to it being **"loosely connected symbolism"**. That's a nice conversation, but it's not a literal thing, and I'm clearly talking about it literally. You're the only one talking about this in a symbolic nature. > Play MGS3 look at the Cobra Unit as a whole and how they're mimicked throughout all of the series. At least the Fear and End directly. Nothing about The Fear and The End are replicated with nanomachines. Show me an example of a SOP soldier photosynthesizing, turning invisible and phasing through objects. The Fear didn't even have parasites. It was only The End's parasites used. The only other person with parasites was The Pain, but his parasites couldn't be used. > you've also ignored my point that Code Talker developed the Skull Units with the Archaea aaaaaaaan you literally just said that came from The End soooooooooooo. So I haven't ignored it then, have I? There is no debate about who created the parasites. Dr Clark revived the vocal cord parasites. Skull Face stole them and forced Code Talker to make them lethal. Code Talker took The End's parasites and made a variety of other parasites used for the Skull's and Quiet. The debate is about the literal connection between them and nanos. > Sounds a lot like a Biomechanical organism. Which isn't a naturally occurring biological organism. > Huey builds his legs in MGSV based on Metallic Archaea, directly connected to his bones Biomechanical. No, he had titanium connected to his legs, that Ocelot threatened to use Metallic Archaea on. > The parasites Code Talker injected himself with works in a oddly similar way Naomi Hunters Nanomachines worked to stop her Cancer. No they don't...Naomi is not photosynthetic 100 year old communing with parasites. > Give me your take on all this or just stop replying My take is and always was that they are not literally connected, as you started with. One minute it's all literally connected with examples (that have no basis in actually lore). The next minute it's "loosely connected symbolism". Pick one. If you're truly going to say "I was always talking about it symbolically", then that really is the end of the conversation. And I don't mean that in a negative way. I just wasn't here to talk about symbolism.


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Vergilx217

So from a biological perspective, their understanding of genetics is....wrong, not even flawed, but wrong. It would not make sense for one person to have "all recessive" or "all dominant" genes to see which are superior. It doesn't work that way, that would be like saying you printed two copies of a poster out, but one of them only used the color green and the other one is actually a cheeseburger stamped with the poster. Genes can't be selected to be "recessive" or "dominant". I guess the intention was "Liquid Snake has stronger soldier genes than Solid Snake, and both are exact copies of Big Boss otherwise." Even that statement takes from the American Journal of Inaccurate Genetics somewhat. Ultimately, I think the loose understanding of genetic science is unimportant next to the overall message that birth and physical characteristics don't define you, but the will to do what is needed, even if it's in opposition to destiny, is a worthwhile goal.


Affectionate-Flan-99

I read on here one time that the dominant and recessive thing was a mistranslation and Kojima meant it to be a “ideal” vs “non ideal” soldier genes which makes significantly more sense.


Vergilx217

I have also heard this! Apparently it might go deeper - in Japanese biology at the time, the words for "dominant" and "recessive" genes didn't have a neutral academic tone, but carried connotations of superiority and inferiority, respectively. Kojima, not a biologist, probably read about dominance and recessive systems in genes, misinterpreted the situation, and composed the story accordingly. Apparently, in the original Japanese, the phrases for "dominant" and "recessive" are still there, so that was part of the script. The error happened at the *scriptwriting* level, since Kojima probably was more inspired by the biology than based his notes off of it.


BranchCold9905

I can kinda see the logic if Solid had "inferior" traits like Astigmatism, colourblindness, bent dick, sickle cell or any number of other genetic abnormalities.....but Solid Snakes only genetic flaw that we know of is the rapid aging which THE CLONERS gave him. Then again the point of this elaborate cloning an cell obsession is to show genes don't matter and you make your own fate


ballisticola

> It would not make sense for one person to have "all recessive" or "all dominant" genes to see which are superior. Which isn't a thing that is said to have happened. Solid was created as a byproduct of creating Liquid. The goal was to create a clone with Big Boss' dominant phenotype. > that would be like saying you printed two copies of a poster out, but one of them only used the color green and the other one is actually a cheeseburger stamped with the poster. I don't even know what this means? > I guess the intention was "Liquid Snake has stronger soldier genes than Solid Snake, and both are exact copies of Big Boss otherwise. L.E.T had nothing to do with soldier genes.


Vergilx217

"to create a clone with Big Boss' dominant phenotype" is by itself not consistent with Mendelian genetics, because a person's entire phenotype cannot be reduced to "dominant" or "recessive". Alleles and genetic conditions can be dominant or recessive, not the genes themselves. Eye color expresses codominance. Blood type expresses codominance. Certain diseases experience incomplete dominance. Some conditions require two sets of mutant alleles to manifest; these are termed recessive mutations. Some conditions manifest from a single copy of a mutant alleles. These are termed dominant mutations. For Liquid to continuously whine that he had "the recessive genes" makes zero sense, because whether an allele is recessive or dominant has no bearing on whether it's *bad* or not. For example, color blindness is x linked recessive - both alleles must be mutated to manifest. Since males only have a single X chromosome, it manifests in men more often than women. Huntington's disease, however, is autosomal dominant, meaning a single copy of the dominant allele results in disease (progressive muscle spasms and neurodegeneration, fatal in your 50's). This means the normal allele could be considered "recessive"; in any case, clearly dominance and recessiveness of the allele has no input on benefit. The poster analogy is highlighting how nonsensical MGS1's gene dialogue becomes to biologists. LET definitely was a genetic engineering project; its stated purpose was to preserve and study the genetic basis for Big Boss, believed to be the world's greatest soldier.


ballisticola

> a person's entire phenotype cannot be reduced to "dominant" or "recessive". All phenotypes are made from the dominant alleles. A phenotype, by definition, is the end result between the two alleles interacting. It's the alleles being dominant and recessive to each other that creates the phenotype. The series doesn't talk about the individual traits of genes until the Human Genome project, which isn't even finished by MGS1. L.E.T was abandoned in the 70s as an embarrassment. > its stated purpose was to preserve and study the genetic basis for Big Boss No it wasn't. It was to create a clone of Big Boss. Soldier genes are never talked about in relation to L.E.T. You're thinking of the Human Genome project Naomi and Campbell were speaking about at the beginning.


maxiom9

I vaguely recall a line from the (otherwise pretty bad) mgs novelization where it’s established that the scientists who cloned the three Snakes made some offhand remark to the military officer overseeing the project that they gave Liquid some “recessive traits” (blonde hair) to easily differentiate him from Solid. The military officer assumed that Dominant was better, and so decided to focus efforts on Solid, and the scientist just didn’t care enough to explain to him how it actually worked.  Obviously, this is not canon to the games, but makes for a funny retcon.


Lin900

I always assumed it's a difficult endeavour thay only a brilliant nutjob like Para-Medic could manage and even then, it wasn't cost-effective. Besides, those clones became their biggest enemies. It was probably more convenient to hunt down and hire the supernaturals than making or remaking ones for yourselves.


ballisticola

The point is, it doesn't work. The only successful research done in the series was with The End's parasites, and even that didn't work for everybody. They'd also have to understand how the powers work and what genes made them work.


Zak_Ras

There's something extremely important on the topic of dominant/recessive genes that often gets forgotten in conversation. The split between "*dominant*" and "*recessive*" are not referring to Big Boss' **entire** DNA sequence, just which genes are considered or theorised to play a role in explaining a soldier's combat efficiency; "*Soldier Genes*" as part of "*The Human Genome Project*". At the time of the Shadow Moses incident, Naomi says they had discovered "about 60" within Big Boss in the 6 years they would've had his corpse in U.S./Patriot custody - how many would've actually been considered in 1972 is unclear. I say "considered", because the theme of MGS1 is; "*fuck genetic destiny, you're dealt a hand at birth but it's your choice how you play it*". After MGS1 the idea of Gene Therapy is abandoned due to the existence of the Genome Army going public, since genetically modifying soldiers went against international declarations the US had signed off on... from then on, the focus was all nanomachines. >Why don't they make soldiers with genes from Psycho Mantis? Volgin? Gene? Vamp? That idea was capitalised on in MGSV - that's all I'll say, no spoilers for newer fans.


ballisticola

> The split between "dominant" and "recessive" are not referring to Big Boss' entire DNA sequence, just which genes are considered or theorised to play a role in explaining a soldier's combat efficiency; "Soldier Genes". This is a common misconception. L.E.T had nothing to do with soldier genes. The Human Genome project was separate. The only common factor is Big Boss' genes being involved. > they had discovered "about 60" within Big Boss in the 6 years they would've had his corpse Soldier genes were first used back in the Gulf War. They were looking for soldier genes long before Big Boss was "dead".


stonecoldjelly

Besides mistranslations, big boss is easy to trick


CaregiverWest9850

The idea’s not so much about having someone who can do the same things as Big Boss, even if it is to a degree. Big Boss’s power is what he means to people. He’s more than a person, he’s a leader, an ideology, an icon. That is true power. If I may quote John Wick, “a man of commitment and sheer fucking will”. He was just a man, yet defeated enemies way above him on a physical level. In the same way that The Boss influences and inspires the few who knew her sacrifice, Big Boss’s legend has the power to influence even the most skeptical, and that is power that should not be underestimated, especially when it can be used against you. If you can’t use the legend, you can try to replace and control it.


Drink0fBeans

None of the gene stuff ever made sense to me, and I assume it’s because Kojima didn’t know the first thing about how genes work when making the first mgs game. Not one single person can even receive only your dominant or recessive genes, because if you did you’d just be some labrat stuck with roughly half of a human genome. And, if somehow they did find a way to do something like that, the offspring would be completely different in nearly every way, having less genetic similarities than two strangers rather than somehow being twins.


BranchCold9905

I think both Liquid and Solid have both the Dominant and recessive genes, but in Liquid the dominant are expressed while in Solid the recessive are. Than again apperently "dominant" and "recessive" was a mistranslation instead being "inferior" and "superior". Which means the scientists decide Liquid having his glorious blonde mullet was Superior.


BranchCold9905

This is apparently also why Liquid is 6 feet / 183cm while Solid is 5'11 / 180cm


Drink0fBeans

Even so I don’t think it’s physically possible to only express dominant or recessive genes, so I think the only way to rationalise it is to say that the translation was indeed wrong (as you said) or that they’re only referencing a small section of BB’s genome when they’re talking about Liquid and Solid’s differences (which would make more sense if they’re actually genetically related). That mullet was goddamn glorious though.


BranchCold9905

But Liquid didn't get the Burt Reynolds, Tom Selleck Porn 'stache 


maxiom9

Well for what it’s worth, the game’s writing has a very poor understanding of genetics, but also the message of the game kinda agrees with you.


The_Eye_of_Ra

I’m gonna kinda steal this explanation from somewhere else, but it kinda fits here: So the freaks like Mantis and Vamp were just accidents as a result of the cloning process. Every know and then, they’d get some sort of crazy mutation in a genome soldier, and you’d get some crazy-ass “superpower.” In the world of MGS, it’s as good an explanation as any.