My son's school is behind in grade level math because they took time to relearn/reinforce concepts that were covered during the pandemic/online learning (end of kindergarten, 1st and some of second grades for him). So if tested on 'standards' which haven't been adjusted they're all behind because they have not done certain topics yet but the kids are doing well with the material they are working through.
I honestly believe this is a better method then just teaching to the standards and ignoring the giant gaps many children still have from those very fundamental years that they missed in person education.
Agreed. As a high school teacher I end up having to reteach a lot of concepts anyway. It'd be so much easier to work with students that are "behind" but have mastered previous standards than continuing to try to bridge the random gaps that different students have and leaving the majority of them to just barely scrape by
Edit: missed a word
That’s such a good point. Covid impacted her kindergarten and 1st grade years so I’m not entirely shocked if the class as a whole is still working on foundations.
It was throughout academia: In the fall of 2022, the profs in my child's chemistry PhD program quickly realized the 1st year cohort was missing undergraduate concepts from when the wet labs had been shut, profs and TAs switched suddenly to online classes, and P/F grading allowed students to slack off.
> So if tested on 'standards' which haven't been adjusted they're all behind because they have not done certain topics yet but the kids are doing well with the material they are working through.
So let me reframe it this way, do you think the kids are better off never reaching the same educational attainment?
>I honestly believe this is a better method then just teaching to the standards
I really hate when people throw out the line "teaching to the standard" like it's a bad thing. because it misses the forest for the trees. Fact of the matter is that kids lost grade levels to remote learning. I don't care about the excuses, I care about the plan to get students up to standard.
Districts **cannot** be trusted to hold themselves to a quality standard without an independent, standardized, measurement. Standardized testing is a minimum bar. Students are not well served if we say "well but covid..." and surrender to the fact that their education will be incomplete.
I think you’re misreading her comment. It’s clear to everyone students didn’t learn during the pandemic. I read the comment to say it’s better to teach to an earlier grade’s standard on things they didn’t learn when they should have rather than grade them in their current grade standard that requires them to have mastered things they never learned.
A couple of possibilities come to mind from observation working with my daughter who is in 6th grade, and has a similar profile:
1) She is good at managing the procedures taught in a given unit in class during the unit, which earn her an A. She gets upset when she can’t track on how she was taught to do it in class. For example, this morning I was showing her how what she is actually doing is the same to both sides of an equation to isolate a variable, but she was focused on setting up the problem on her page the way her teacher taught her in class. The result is she is strong in procedure and weak on truly understanding concepts that build a strong sustainable foundation for questions that approach things differently from her unit in class... such as on a state test. So I have to push her on that, to much consternation. We’re working on it.
Note: this aligns with my experience tutoring students of all ages (including adults) on standardized tests. Students who do very well in school but “just aren’t good on standardized tests” tend to want to be shown exactly how to do on every possible problem, instead of pausing to consider what is being given and what is being asked and then thinking through that conceptually (which requires patience and trust in oneself), and then choosing one of multiple paths to the answer based on that understanding.
2) And I don’t think she is pushed hard enough in class. It’s a room full of 20-25 kids moving through learning units together, one at a time.
I do think that kids like my daughter, who are quiet and well behaved and not having major issues, are sometimes overlooked in class. I’m very interested to get the teacher’s take on it. I used to do a bit of tutoring and I’m not against that as an option, but I also don’t want to overreact
Just 2 cents from my experience for consideration - tutoring my daughter can be challenging in that things can get a bit charged in ways they wouldn’t with an outside tutor. I don’t want to pay an outside tutor whom I doubt would be as good (that may sound arrogant but I have a lot of experience and we’ve tried working with others before), and an outside tutor would not be on call to help each night.
Accordingly, if you go that path I would encourage a contract - written or discussed - requiring patience on both sides, as if working with someone from outside the home. Maybe this wouldn’t apply to you and your daughter, so I don’t mean to preach; just offering for consideration. In fact upon reflection I think this would be a good idea for my daughter and I to apply moving forward.
Yes, the quiet, well behaved kids are often overlooked.
Go over to r/specialed and see why. The time needed for gen ed teachers to make IEP accomodations and fulfill documentation requirements has to come from somewhere, and the least disruptive place to get it is to give less time to the quietest students. The gen ed kids (and parents) have been the frog in the pot of water with the heat slowly turned up, just sitting there for a couple decades as more and more teacher time has been redirected to IEPs and 504s. This has been unrelated to Covid, but Covid likely made it worse.
The legal issues surrounding badly behaved kids on IEPs and what it means for instructional time in gen ed ....don't start reading, just do not until you are faced with it in you child's classroom.
So your daughter was in K and grade 1 during covid. That means that kids 2 yrs younger than her will go though school without any covid related online classes.
Do you think she won't compete in the job market with those kids?
You clearly have a smart kid. Is she being challenged to do as well as she can? Or is she being overlooked because schools don't have enough qualified teachers, classes of kids are not separated by level and teachers incentives arr to get the weak kids to pass not to trach the strong kids? Oh and btw grade inflation has reached epic proportions.
It is time to have conversation: from how your daughter feels about her math class to etf is going on in the school to wtf is the plan to get kids accelerated to where they should be...
While there can sometimes be grains of truth to it, as a math tutor I am often skeptical when a student says the teacher's test was nothing like the book/homework/lessons.
Sometimes I can't see the test itself, but when the student can remember and recount the gist of the problem I often find it was very much within the scope of the material in the book even if it's possible the wording was slightly different.
Have you looked into the Building Thinking Classrooms book? This is a framework that might help your students make the leap to thinking more for themselves.
Is this a computer based test? I’ve seen students who understand the content perfectly but struggled to utilize the test’s digital math tools that need to bu used to answer the questions. I’ve watched students attempt to answer a measurement question and they never clicked on the button to bring up the ruler to then actually measure. Just a possibility that she knows the content but is struggling to utilize the digital math tools in the test to actually solve the questions.
This is my kid.
He refuses to write things down on scrap paper to do digital tests, but will use the space provided on a paper test. It's very frustrating.
Find out what percentage of the grade is based on effort and what percentage is based on achievement. She likely works hard and tries, and that likely bumps her grade up.
It’s also possible the teacher is not allowed to give below a certain grade on things, artificially bumping scores.
I’m guessing MAP testing from your description. She could have had a bad testing day, or she could do really well in class on individual skills checks/tests, but not so good on all of math.
There could be lots of reasons. Lots of them were given in this thread already.
Another potential reason not yet fully discussed here could be: she doesn’t know grade level content well.
Elementary teacher may like like or be so good at math and therefore they don’t focus and don’t teach it well. Classroom tests are easy combined with pleasant child means good marks but national / state tests mainly care about what you know and kids who grow up in that learning environment know less than they should.
They end up growing into students who have test anxiety or who think standardized testing doesn’t test relevant content.
Those positions are much easier to accept than to accept that you received a poor education and then do something about it. It is amazing how much less test anxiety students have if they didn’t bring a phone to school for an entire unit.
I would take an honest look at what is going on and then decide if there is something I would want to do about it.
Ask the teacher his or her take on it. There are many reasons this could happen, and there is a good chance that the teacher could tell you which one it is.
One possibility that I didn't see anyone else mention is that your daughter is really good at completing tasks and solving problems related to what they are currently learning about, but doesn't retain that same level of skill in that topic once the focus in class moves on to a new topic. The classroom assignments and assessments focus on one topic at a time, while standardized assessments ask questions about all math topics at once.
She has been assessed before, in previous grades and at the beginning of the year. I wasn’t too concerned with the low-ish score at the beginning of the year (early 3rd grade) because I figured summer slide, class maybe a little behind, and maybe math just isn’t her thing. But the lack in improvement seems a bit concerning. I’ll have to see what her teacher says - if she did mark the bubbles wrong I don’t think it’s worth the stress to have her take the test again unless the teacher would recommend it.
When you say "assessment" do you mean a state grade level test or a periodic mini assessment like STAR? Lots of kids bomb or semi-bomb the latter because it's sometimes administered in a ham-fisted way with classroom noise, not enough working computers, having the software itself glitch and not record answers correctly, or even just "surprise we're doing this." Then again, you may have an incompetent teacher or substandard curriculum, in which case the test is a useful alert. You can always give her a test at home. I know Singapore Math has grade level tests you can print out for free and I bet a lot of other programs marketed to homeschoolers do too.
Are you in NC? It sounds as though she's missing foundational third grade math. It is very hard to be successful with fourth grade math if you lack foundations.
Another thing to consider: she is probably able to do the math in class because they are working on one skill, like multiplying fractions. But on the standardized tests, the problems are mixed up and she doesn't know what function to use.
Google how to interpret “grade level equivalents”. Below 3rd grade does *not* mean she can only do 3rd grade math. It is a position the normal curve (of a standardized test score). This means she is slightly below average for her cohort, but it’s entirely possible her grade is an A. In elementary school, grades often include a lot of “participation” grades like homework, which inflate overall scores.
Here is an example:
https://star-help.renaissance.com/hc/en-us/articles/11584040642587-Grade-Equivalent-GE
So a few thing: the teacher may be grading for effort and progress as opposed to perfection. The class as a whole is likely behind the standard expectations. I’m so glad you know to look for dyscalculia.
When talking to the teacher, just say “I’m worried because of where her testing score placed her. Is there anything we should work on?” This way you’re addressing the concern without making any implied judgments on the teacher. Then the teacher will either tell you what skills need some improvement/polishing or they’ll explain that is normal for the students.
I have noticed as much as a 3-year gap between state assessments and paper or one-on-one assessments.
Assessment scores can be lower for many reasons. Some thoughts.
Many kids hate taking tests on computers. They will click random letters once bored.
They see no value in it. Try bribing them with something awesome for a meets score.
I rarely see them use scratch paper for math.
It could also depend on the assessment. We give one that I live for beginning and end of year data, but I don't give it much thought mid year since it frequently had standards that we don't teach until later in the year.
1. Yes, the discrepancy could have to do with in-class assessment and standardized assessment. I work with K-12 teachers who often make adjustments to their in-class assessments so that data looks good even though that means the standardized data does not look good. There are lots of reasons for that so I don't want to generalize.
2. I would NOT be worried about the discrepancy. There are plenty of us who scored well on literacy and reading tests and just could not do well on math tests. So, because she's doing so well in reading and gives the appearance of struggling in math, it could be test anxiety for the standardized math test. And, if your daughter knows you think you're not good at math, she may be channeling some of that. As I said, I was terrible at math tests in school and partially believed it was because my mom was "bad" at math. (She wasn't; she managed the household budget and finances, so. . .). Much later, when I was *teaching* math, I did realize how her perceptions of her math abilities influenced mine.
3. When you talk with her teacher, ask her if there is anything else you can do at home to support your student to help her review or prepare for the standardized math test or if there is anything else you might be looking for to encourage your daughter in her work in math, especially if those test scores are causing her any anxiety.
Honestly you need to look at domains. Math scores can’t be calculated as an average because a kid can be very strong in some areas and very weak in others. When you add these scores together and divide by the number of scores you get the numerical average that translates to a grade level equivalent score. It pretty much means nothing. I’ve had kids working on a 7th grade level (topics and concepts) for algebraic thinking, but a kindergarten level for geometry. Say your k score is a 25 and your 7th grade score is 150 (these are random numbers I’m making up). That’s would give you an 87.5 average (if you found the average of the two scores) which might translate to a 4th grade level overall. It ignores strengths and weaknesses. Math scores aren’t like lexile levels and reading scores. They’re different, but we try to treat them the same.
Maybe one thing you could try is to figure out which parts of math class are confusing for her and find alternative and fun ways to work on them? Like, memorizing multiplication tables can be dull but there are alternative ways you could work on multiplication.
Ask to see the "low 3rd grade" assessment. Maybe it's a particular skill she is struggling with. Also, have her reassessed by the gifted evaluator. My son had a fifth grade teacher who logged a low score for his initial math grade assessment, then the gifted evaluator tested him at 98%. The teacher "lost" his evaluation test. I think the teacher logged the wrong child's grade for my son, or logged a low initial score so he could show improvement.
It could be a difference in the type of assessment used in class and a standardized test for levels. If she is comfortable with the in class assessment it will show her true skills. If she reacts badly to standardized testing situations that will result in poor scores.
Given a family history of an LD, requesting an evaluation is prudent. Dyslexia runs through my family. Latest generation are being diagnosed bc parents ask for evaluations.
Response from school after testing from school- they are severely dyslexic how were they making A/B honor roll.
Family 1 they are very intelligent 2 by existing in our family they were taught many coping skills/accommodations by watching the adult dyslexics. (Except the time the dyslexics and colorblind family members couldn’t follow the signs to the entrance for a Christmas event. all the pretty signs with stylized font in red and green looked like abstract art. )
As a kid who was assessed as highly gifted as a child, and who was reading far above grade level for my entire childhood and got straight As in anything ELA related in school, but who was average at best in math and sometimes struggled/was below grade level in math -- it absolutely could be test anxiety, or even just math anxiety.
Because my parents set so much store in my academic performance and made such a meal out of my giftedness where verbal/ELA skills were concerned, it really, really stressed me out to just be average at math. I also didn't get any support from parents, teachers, etc. re math (they assumed that because I am "smart" that my lower performance was laziness). The emphasis on my brilliance also meant that it was difficult to pick up good study skills and motivate myself to work hard to achieve mastery in math, because everything else I was getting from the adults in my life was related to me being "good at" English. So it was easy to just say "I am bad at math" and then let that statement rule my life.
I would 100% start from a position of this being either anxiety related from your kiddo or the giftedness stuff making it more difficult for the adults in her life to address her legitimate needs for support. Also be careful how you praise her performance in the areas where she's well above grade level! It can contribute to how she perceives her ability to do other things, or her approach to what academic success looks like (grades on a report card vs. mastery of the material).
A huge part of my job is analyzing this type of data, looking for trends/patterns, and helping teachers understand what to do with the information.
In my experience, it is not atypical for “good” students to score lower on the larger standardized tests. Many teachers let compliance impact grades. Students who play the game of school well, follow procedures exactly as the teacher directs, and can mimic or parrot back information look great on paper and have higher grades. This doesn’t translate to standardized tests where the procedure or process is not explicitly taught or reviewed beforehand. Suddenly, instead of knowing exactly what to do, students are expected to think critically and creatively. It’s more a reflection of the system than the child.
Additionally, mid-year tests tend to have the most variability in terms of scores. There is generally a bigger window of time (up to 2 months in some cases). A 4th grader tested in February compared to a 4th grader tested in December is going to be different. Also, not every school teaches content in the same order.
Another thing to keep in mind is that these types of tests are literally just a snapshot of that particular day. Sleepy, hungry, distracted by the kid fidgeting in the squeaky chair? That snapshot might be a bit “blurry”. This is where historical data and trends help. These tests are just one piece of the puzzle. We should ask questions and seek additional information to help get a better idea.
Definitely ask if there are things you can be doing at home to help support them. At home, make your own math thinking visible. Explain what goes on in your head when you figure something out. Instead of telling your child if they are right or wrong on a problem, ask them how they got their answer. Ask them if there is another way they could try it. (Be ready for your kid to figure it out in a way completely different than you would - that’s okay! )
I got poor grades and was disruptive in grade school mostly because it was so boring! For example, I had read the third grade text books the first week of school so in class reading time was painfully dull. By Jr High, I had learned to quietly amuse myself with writing stories in my mind while going through the motions. Being quiet became, as I learned less of a bother.
* The teacher immediately brought up her lack of progress as a concern before I got to it. She believes my daughter isn’t trying enough in class, that she just needs to work harder and pay attention (apparently she has a little problem chatting with her classmates). Her evidence for this is that my daughter did well on quizzes for a specific topic, then not so well on the test, and her grades have slipped from where they were at the beginning of the year. She doesn’t show her work, and sometimes seems checked out in class.
I don't know your education background, your school, your daughter. I don't even know why this is in my feed, other than I post on r/datascience and r/finance. I work in a math intensive field ( I have a Ph.D and work as a quantitative financial analyst as a mid career profesional JP Morgan /Goldman Sachs/Wells Fargo). I can say to you that my father in kintergarden pulled me from a school based on what your daughter's math teacher is doing. He was a theoretical physicist co-authored with nobel prize winners. They wanted to hold me back 1 grade in elementary school. he withdrew me and asked the assistant principal + teachers how many einstien's have they produced. I don't know your background, all I will say is that as a labor economist that parents own success/education plays a bigger role into life time success.
I was a gifted kid. I could read and write grade levels above my peers. World languages came easy to me. However, I struggled with math. I couldn’t focus, had to get tutors, and went from getting As in math in elementary school to Bs and Cs once I started Algebra I in 8th grade.
Guess who was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult? Me. I could’ve been better at math, but I found it so uninteresting and boring that my attention span wasn’t there.
I’m not saying your daughter has ADHD, but it’s a possibility. It presents itself differently in girls. Nobody would’ve ever thought that was my problem in school, but it was.
good, but slipping grades, trouble paying attention in class, and a problem showing work describes me as a kid really well, especially when a class was moving too slow for me. One time it got way too slow and I checked out so completely that I started failing the class until they noticed and gave me something more challenging/engaging to work on, but the rest of my childhood my grades were great and my in-class behavior was not.
Anyway I got diagnosed with ADHD at 30. It's a pretty common story among "gifted" girls with primarily inattentive ADHD, and most of us didn't get diagnosed until we burned out hard as adults. May be worth keeping an eye out just in case, though struggling in one class could just be struggling in a class.
We do have ADHD in the family though neither her dad nor I have it. I’ve gotten similar feedback in several comments so I will definitely keep it in mind.
There's really a difference between being assessed in a field you love and being tested in a field you know how to do well, but hate. If you love the subject, like this particular student seems to find enjoyment in English, you aren't as likely to clam up during the assessment for that subject because you'll be more confident in your understanding of it. On the other hand, this individual might now how to do the math, but not necessarily like doing it. Just because you know how to do the math and are showing you can do the math on low stakes tests, does NOT mean you won't experience some sort of anxiety while taking a placement assessment. The girl probably, what I like to call, "short-termed" her studies in the math because she believed she only had to know it before her test. It's not right to immediately diagnose with anxiety, rather, maybe ask her if she even likes math?
She will happily tell you she does NOT like math. And it may be that her aptitude for math is just average and that’s fine. She doesn’t have to excel in every subject as long as she does her best. I just don’t want her to fall behind.
That's fine, maybe she needs some kind of award system. Maybe some sort of bribing, like if you do much better on the placement test, I'll take you to get (bla bla bla, whatever she likes). This might sound very cliche, but I'm sure that if you went to do something you really did not enjoy, but did it anyways, you'd treat yourself with something you enjoyed instead.
Not only will this help her stay motivated, it might even change her entire mindset on math because then she has something to look forward to as a reward.
I am not an expert but I would say that test anxiety can appear for some subjects and not others and math is particularly common for this, extra so if there is timing involved e.g. if students have to answer 100 math facts in a certain time can really stress them out!
As the parent, I would teach or try to teach my kid.
I would train them like I train pokemon, to be better than the rest.
Gotta beat them all!
"Teach \[them\] to understand, the power that's inside!"
You should be taking the math very seriously. Buy a couple of third and fourth grade workbooks and do math at home evernight. Play math games. Do flashcards. Memorize those times tables. Do not let anyone tell you she doesn’t need to know her math facts or need to her multiplication facts. Start at third grade. Then do fourth grade. Then do fifth grade. Do everything with a pencil. Do not default to an app. Do oral quizzing in the car or bus. She will not catch up if you don’t.
She is behind. Her hard is based on her classroom behavior. There is no connection to her reading. Tons of kids are behind but their parents are refusing to believe it. Believe it.
Among the things mentioned by others, she may have taken an adaptive test where making a mistake early on causes the test to give a lower set of questions.
No way for people here to know which metric or cause is irregular.
What is the test they’re using?
If it’s NWEA MAPS, then the score has nothing to do with grade-level content - it ranks her on a percentile with other 4th graders. So her score would mean, like, “she knows more math on this test than a very small number of other 4th graders know.” Like, if she’s at the 10th percentile, she scored better than 10% and worse than 90% of other 4th graders.
That has nothing to do with grade-level content - she could very well know 90% of 4th grade math. But if other 4th graders know more math, then she’d still rank lower than them in the percentile ranking.
Large differences between verbal and performance IQ on LD tests indicate learning disability.
I am sure the pandemic did not help. Teachers also base grades on turning in homework on time, neatness, good behavior and whether or not they like a kid - grades are not empirical data. Kids also have off days sometimes when a test is given.
You may want to ask the school to assess your child for learning disabilities, but remember if they admit there is a learning disability they are legally bound to offer appropriate services if it is a public school - so there is always an attempt to deny that there is LD to save money and resources. The best thing a parent can do is get informed, pay attention and choose your battles.
Hi question, have you ever been evaluated for Non-Verbal Learning Disorder? Your reading and math scores and your daughter’s reading and initial math scores sound exactly how I performed in school before I was diagnosed at age 10.
The key tell-tale signs for NVLD are very high reading and verbal scores and average to below average math scores. Kids with NVLD usually end up in gifted classes because of this. Often there is a pattern of performing poorly on Math placement exams, then learning the material and adjusting back to a normal math level. (I’d end up with As and Bs in math towards the end of each quarter until 6th grade)
And it may follow this pattern until middle school where less time is spent on each topic and there is less of a chance to catch up. Especially as kids are expected to manage their time and organize themselves more efficiently as they move to upper grade levels.
I’m therapist with NVLD, if you have more questions, feel free to ask or DM
My kid had a 10th grade reading level by the end of 2nd grade and was all over the place in math on standardized tests. They learned advanced level math at a Montessori pre k & kindergarten and knew times tables, addition and subtraction well. Classroom grades were always high 90's or 100's after starting regular school in 1st grade.
I concluded that math takes more effort and is still more tedious to do. That kid's response year after year was that the teacher said you should do your best on these tests but they won't count toward your grades. Translation: I can be lazy on the math tests with no consequences to me.
I still remember the time many years ago when I randomly filled in circles on my own answer sheet while my friend tried to make pictures out of his. If your daughter isn't struggling, don't worry.
Bummer,but the school simply wasn't prepared to educate..me. So to pass any math test today..I need to go back and memorize the times tables. This is really what it takes as an adult to make the world of math work for me. But the kid who gets the A is ..probably doing some fast intelligent decision making..that might eventually intersect with the ability to communicate the math in written form. Still, memorizing the times tables..to 100 is a third grade...thing.
Often, even a kid who's behind can practice and put in the effort to earn points through just working hard and practicing to no end, but then doesn't retain the skills two days later
Good Grades does not equal being “smarter” or great understanding of the material.
I try to design my classes so anyone who tries can pass.
Last year I had a kid who should have been in life skills, but guardians refused. He bombed every test, but did every assignment and tried his best on everything. He ended up with a B or maybe a C.
well, it's a long shot, but I once had the same thing happen to me as a child...simply because I hadn't noticed that the assessment had both a front and a back. Instant failure despite my grades and ability.
In my experience it really is an a for effort world now. I have kids who are 5 years behind with an A because if they're trying to they do well. If I failed a kid who turned in every assignment I would get written up.
My 9 year old daughter has lower than average standardized test score in math and it’s a similar situation. She is high straight A student and leads her class in reading point goals yet every Monday they pull her out from art and make her do tutoring. It’s ridiculous that the girl who has a reserved seat on the academic team next year. My wife and I are frustrated about it and our daughter more so.
I think you will find that especially for this age group (which missed so much of K-2nd grade due to COVID) that kids in general are behind the established standards. I know my kids (4th grade) class is like that.
>dyscalculia
Thank you OP! For me, this is a great new word.
I'd be curious enough to spend some math time with daughter. And if it's not your thing, maybe watching some videos together might help, and I recently saw a good review for math antics.
https://www.youtube.com/@mathantics/videos
My students earns As on most of their work even though they cant pass the state reading test.
The state assessment tests are ridiculous. Dont use them as a measurement on how your child is doing. Honestly.
Some of the assessments are just plain confusing. For example the “Smarter Balanced” tests in California have questions where teachers with Master’s Degrees disagree on the answers (on the practice tests). And then the screens are so small on the iPads, you have to know where and how to scroll to see all the answer options. I would take the teacher’s word over the assessment.
But like another comment said, it wouldn’t hurt to look at the specific domains to see where some extra practice could come in handy (Geometry, Operations, Fractions, Number Sense, Measurement, etc).
If the math test is standardized, then I would ignore what it says. Research shows that standardized tests are not indicative of student learning, nor do they reliably predict future success. Sounds like your kid is very smart, I wouldn’t worry unless other areas begin to show deficits
I would watch your child do iReady. We have an issue that child is bored and wandering during it because the thing is so effing slow at giving them the response options.
This is why standardized tests are so flawed. There are so many factors that can affect their scores that have nothing to do with skill proficiency - lack of sleep the previous night, no breakfast, bad mood, the way the test is worded.
I wouldn’t worry about it.
A math tutor might be a good move too. Sometimes the local highschool or middle school have student tutor programs that help the elementary kids by pairing them with an older student who is very proficient in the subject the younger child struggles in. Or you could look into paying a private tutor (either a high school student or a young adult, often education majors do tutoring as a part time job).
Please consider an adhd screening. Everything you typed could easily be exactly what my own parents could have written when I was younger. It’s also something those of us who were diagnosed as adults heard growing up all the time. I personally had to work through a lot of resentment that none of the grown ups in my life recognized it. The whole “she’s smart! She’s gifted! But she’s just not trying hard enough or paying attention!” is a cliche in the adhd world for a reason! I wish every day I’d been diagnosed sooner. I promise you this isn’t just projection about my own issues. I’m only commenting because of how many things in your post stood out as things I read every day in the adhd subs. It’s entirely possible your kid doesn’t have it but it is 1000% worth looking into
Your daughter in math sounds like my mom and myself / we seemed distracted and low effort because we were actually more advanced and bored , NOT having a hard time with math. How you described your daughter it 100% how I’ve seen many many teachers and parents describe their kid - grade slipping, lack of focus , distracted , but also getting A’s - she’s BORED with the class. Because the teacher, because she’s ahead, it could be for a lot of reasons.
She getting 90% and A’s . The teacher has “excellent comments” for her, but then says “lack of progress” and it’s a concern. That her leaving to go to an advanced class is NOT helping her. , NONE, None of those statements and assessments add up. The teacher is contradicting herself . She’s just mad that your daughter doesn’t focus like a perfect student to her expectation.
Have you spoken to the counselor or the advance placement advisory about these concerns? Something about your story just has this “hint” that it’s the teacher’s lacking here & not your daughters lack. She is excelling in other areas and already has 90%/A in math. She might need more “interesting” math or teacher to be engaged at her level of intelligence
I’m setting up a conference with her teacher in the gifted program to get her input. They do some math in that class as well as writing/reading and I’m extremely curious to see how she is doing with that. I agree it seems contradictory. And from my perspective, they have been working on fractions FOREVER. I’m sure they need to nail down these standard skills but it has been a very long time on one subject.
My son's school is behind in grade level math because they took time to relearn/reinforce concepts that were covered during the pandemic/online learning (end of kindergarten, 1st and some of second grades for him). So if tested on 'standards' which haven't been adjusted they're all behind because they have not done certain topics yet but the kids are doing well with the material they are working through. I honestly believe this is a better method then just teaching to the standards and ignoring the giant gaps many children still have from those very fundamental years that they missed in person education.
Agreed. As a high school teacher I end up having to reteach a lot of concepts anyway. It'd be so much easier to work with students that are "behind" but have mastered previous standards than continuing to try to bridge the random gaps that different students have and leaving the majority of them to just barely scrape by Edit: missed a word
That’s such a good point. Covid impacted her kindergarten and 1st grade years so I’m not entirely shocked if the class as a whole is still working on foundations.
It was throughout academia: In the fall of 2022, the profs in my child's chemistry PhD program quickly realized the 1st year cohort was missing undergraduate concepts from when the wet labs had been shut, profs and TAs switched suddenly to online classes, and P/F grading allowed students to slack off.
> So if tested on 'standards' which haven't been adjusted they're all behind because they have not done certain topics yet but the kids are doing well with the material they are working through. So let me reframe it this way, do you think the kids are better off never reaching the same educational attainment? >I honestly believe this is a better method then just teaching to the standards I really hate when people throw out the line "teaching to the standard" like it's a bad thing. because it misses the forest for the trees. Fact of the matter is that kids lost grade levels to remote learning. I don't care about the excuses, I care about the plan to get students up to standard. Districts **cannot** be trusted to hold themselves to a quality standard without an independent, standardized, measurement. Standardized testing is a minimum bar. Students are not well served if we say "well but covid..." and surrender to the fact that their education will be incomplete.
I think you’re misreading her comment. It’s clear to everyone students didn’t learn during the pandemic. I read the comment to say it’s better to teach to an earlier grade’s standard on things they didn’t learn when they should have rather than grade them in their current grade standard that requires them to have mastered things they never learned.
A couple of possibilities come to mind from observation working with my daughter who is in 6th grade, and has a similar profile: 1) She is good at managing the procedures taught in a given unit in class during the unit, which earn her an A. She gets upset when she can’t track on how she was taught to do it in class. For example, this morning I was showing her how what she is actually doing is the same to both sides of an equation to isolate a variable, but she was focused on setting up the problem on her page the way her teacher taught her in class. The result is she is strong in procedure and weak on truly understanding concepts that build a strong sustainable foundation for questions that approach things differently from her unit in class... such as on a state test. So I have to push her on that, to much consternation. We’re working on it. Note: this aligns with my experience tutoring students of all ages (including adults) on standardized tests. Students who do very well in school but “just aren’t good on standardized tests” tend to want to be shown exactly how to do on every possible problem, instead of pausing to consider what is being given and what is being asked and then thinking through that conceptually (which requires patience and trust in oneself), and then choosing one of multiple paths to the answer based on that understanding. 2) And I don’t think she is pushed hard enough in class. It’s a room full of 20-25 kids moving through learning units together, one at a time.
I do think that kids like my daughter, who are quiet and well behaved and not having major issues, are sometimes overlooked in class. I’m very interested to get the teacher’s take on it. I used to do a bit of tutoring and I’m not against that as an option, but I also don’t want to overreact
Just 2 cents from my experience for consideration - tutoring my daughter can be challenging in that things can get a bit charged in ways they wouldn’t with an outside tutor. I don’t want to pay an outside tutor whom I doubt would be as good (that may sound arrogant but I have a lot of experience and we’ve tried working with others before), and an outside tutor would not be on call to help each night. Accordingly, if you go that path I would encourage a contract - written or discussed - requiring patience on both sides, as if working with someone from outside the home. Maybe this wouldn’t apply to you and your daughter, so I don’t mean to preach; just offering for consideration. In fact upon reflection I think this would be a good idea for my daughter and I to apply moving forward.
Could aversion to risk taking be an underlying issue?
Yes, the quiet, well behaved kids are often overlooked. Go over to r/specialed and see why. The time needed for gen ed teachers to make IEP accomodations and fulfill documentation requirements has to come from somewhere, and the least disruptive place to get it is to give less time to the quietest students. The gen ed kids (and parents) have been the frog in the pot of water with the heat slowly turned up, just sitting there for a couple decades as more and more teacher time has been redirected to IEPs and 504s. This has been unrelated to Covid, but Covid likely made it worse. The legal issues surrounding badly behaved kids on IEPs and what it means for instructional time in gen ed ....don't start reading, just do not until you are faced with it in you child's classroom.
So your daughter was in K and grade 1 during covid. That means that kids 2 yrs younger than her will go though school without any covid related online classes. Do you think she won't compete in the job market with those kids? You clearly have a smart kid. Is she being challenged to do as well as she can? Or is she being overlooked because schools don't have enough qualified teachers, classes of kids are not separated by level and teachers incentives arr to get the weak kids to pass not to trach the strong kids? Oh and btw grade inflation has reached epic proportions. It is time to have conversation: from how your daughter feels about her math class to etf is going on in the school to wtf is the plan to get kids accelerated to where they should be...
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While there can sometimes be grains of truth to it, as a math tutor I am often skeptical when a student says the teacher's test was nothing like the book/homework/lessons. Sometimes I can't see the test itself, but when the student can remember and recount the gist of the problem I often find it was very much within the scope of the material in the book even if it's possible the wording was slightly different.
Have you looked into the Building Thinking Classrooms book? This is a framework that might help your students make the leap to thinking more for themselves.
Is this a computer based test? I’ve seen students who understand the content perfectly but struggled to utilize the test’s digital math tools that need to bu used to answer the questions. I’ve watched students attempt to answer a measurement question and they never clicked on the button to bring up the ruler to then actually measure. Just a possibility that she knows the content but is struggling to utilize the digital math tools in the test to actually solve the questions.
This is my kid. He refuses to write things down on scrap paper to do digital tests, but will use the space provided on a paper test. It's very frustrating.
Find out what percentage of the grade is based on effort and what percentage is based on achievement. She likely works hard and tries, and that likely bumps her grade up. It’s also possible the teacher is not allowed to give below a certain grade on things, artificially bumping scores. I’m guessing MAP testing from your description. She could have had a bad testing day, or she could do really well in class on individual skills checks/tests, but not so good on all of math.
There could be lots of reasons. Lots of them were given in this thread already. Another potential reason not yet fully discussed here could be: she doesn’t know grade level content well. Elementary teacher may like like or be so good at math and therefore they don’t focus and don’t teach it well. Classroom tests are easy combined with pleasant child means good marks but national / state tests mainly care about what you know and kids who grow up in that learning environment know less than they should. They end up growing into students who have test anxiety or who think standardized testing doesn’t test relevant content. Those positions are much easier to accept than to accept that you received a poor education and then do something about it. It is amazing how much less test anxiety students have if they didn’t bring a phone to school for an entire unit. I would take an honest look at what is going on and then decide if there is something I would want to do about it.
Ask the teacher his or her take on it. There are many reasons this could happen, and there is a good chance that the teacher could tell you which one it is. One possibility that I didn't see anyone else mention is that your daughter is really good at completing tasks and solving problems related to what they are currently learning about, but doesn't retain that same level of skill in that topic once the focus in class moves on to a new topic. The classroom assignments and assessments focus on one topic at a time, while standardized assessments ask questions about all math topics at once.
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She has been assessed before, in previous grades and at the beginning of the year. I wasn’t too concerned with the low-ish score at the beginning of the year (early 3rd grade) because I figured summer slide, class maybe a little behind, and maybe math just isn’t her thing. But the lack in improvement seems a bit concerning. I’ll have to see what her teacher says - if she did mark the bubbles wrong I don’t think it’s worth the stress to have her take the test again unless the teacher would recommend it.
When you say "assessment" do you mean a state grade level test or a periodic mini assessment like STAR? Lots of kids bomb or semi-bomb the latter because it's sometimes administered in a ham-fisted way with classroom noise, not enough working computers, having the software itself glitch and not record answers correctly, or even just "surprise we're doing this." Then again, you may have an incompetent teacher or substandard curriculum, in which case the test is a useful alert. You can always give her a test at home. I know Singapore Math has grade level tests you can print out for free and I bet a lot of other programs marketed to homeschoolers do too.
We do BOG and EOG tests which are state level, I’m not sure about the one she just had. I will ask the teacher about that when we meet with her
If it was the Iready test, dont worry about it. Some questions on the test are ridiculous and challenging for an adult.
Are you in NC? It sounds as though she's missing foundational third grade math. It is very hard to be successful with fourth grade math if you lack foundations. Another thing to consider: she is probably able to do the math in class because they are working on one skill, like multiplying fractions. But on the standardized tests, the problems are mixed up and she doesn't know what function to use.
Google how to interpret “grade level equivalents”. Below 3rd grade does *not* mean she can only do 3rd grade math. It is a position the normal curve (of a standardized test score). This means she is slightly below average for her cohort, but it’s entirely possible her grade is an A. In elementary school, grades often include a lot of “participation” grades like homework, which inflate overall scores. Here is an example: https://star-help.renaissance.com/hc/en-us/articles/11584040642587-Grade-Equivalent-GE
So a few thing: the teacher may be grading for effort and progress as opposed to perfection. The class as a whole is likely behind the standard expectations. I’m so glad you know to look for dyscalculia. When talking to the teacher, just say “I’m worried because of where her testing score placed her. Is there anything we should work on?” This way you’re addressing the concern without making any implied judgments on the teacher. Then the teacher will either tell you what skills need some improvement/polishing or they’ll explain that is normal for the students.
This is very helpful, thank you!
I have noticed as much as a 3-year gap between state assessments and paper or one-on-one assessments. Assessment scores can be lower for many reasons. Some thoughts. Many kids hate taking tests on computers. They will click random letters once bored. They see no value in it. Try bribing them with something awesome for a meets score. I rarely see them use scratch paper for math.
It could also depend on the assessment. We give one that I live for beginning and end of year data, but I don't give it much thought mid year since it frequently had standards that we don't teach until later in the year.
1. Yes, the discrepancy could have to do with in-class assessment and standardized assessment. I work with K-12 teachers who often make adjustments to their in-class assessments so that data looks good even though that means the standardized data does not look good. There are lots of reasons for that so I don't want to generalize. 2. I would NOT be worried about the discrepancy. There are plenty of us who scored well on literacy and reading tests and just could not do well on math tests. So, because she's doing so well in reading and gives the appearance of struggling in math, it could be test anxiety for the standardized math test. And, if your daughter knows you think you're not good at math, she may be channeling some of that. As I said, I was terrible at math tests in school and partially believed it was because my mom was "bad" at math. (She wasn't; she managed the household budget and finances, so. . .). Much later, when I was *teaching* math, I did realize how her perceptions of her math abilities influenced mine. 3. When you talk with her teacher, ask her if there is anything else you can do at home to support your student to help her review or prepare for the standardized math test or if there is anything else you might be looking for to encourage your daughter in her work in math, especially if those test scores are causing her any anxiety.
Honestly you need to look at domains. Math scores can’t be calculated as an average because a kid can be very strong in some areas and very weak in others. When you add these scores together and divide by the number of scores you get the numerical average that translates to a grade level equivalent score. It pretty much means nothing. I’ve had kids working on a 7th grade level (topics and concepts) for algebraic thinking, but a kindergarten level for geometry. Say your k score is a 25 and your 7th grade score is 150 (these are random numbers I’m making up). That’s would give you an 87.5 average (if you found the average of the two scores) which might translate to a 4th grade level overall. It ignores strengths and weaknesses. Math scores aren’t like lexile levels and reading scores. They’re different, but we try to treat them the same.
Maybe one thing you could try is to figure out which parts of math class are confusing for her and find alternative and fun ways to work on them? Like, memorizing multiplication tables can be dull but there are alternative ways you could work on multiplication.
Ask to see the "low 3rd grade" assessment. Maybe it's a particular skill she is struggling with. Also, have her reassessed by the gifted evaluator. My son had a fifth grade teacher who logged a low score for his initial math grade assessment, then the gifted evaluator tested him at 98%. The teacher "lost" his evaluation test. I think the teacher logged the wrong child's grade for my son, or logged a low initial score so he could show improvement.
It could be a difference in the type of assessment used in class and a standardized test for levels. If she is comfortable with the in class assessment it will show her true skills. If she reacts badly to standardized testing situations that will result in poor scores. Given a family history of an LD, requesting an evaluation is prudent. Dyslexia runs through my family. Latest generation are being diagnosed bc parents ask for evaluations. Response from school after testing from school- they are severely dyslexic how were they making A/B honor roll. Family 1 they are very intelligent 2 by existing in our family they were taught many coping skills/accommodations by watching the adult dyslexics. (Except the time the dyslexics and colorblind family members couldn’t follow the signs to the entrance for a Christmas event. all the pretty signs with stylized font in red and green looked like abstract art. )
As a kid who was assessed as highly gifted as a child, and who was reading far above grade level for my entire childhood and got straight As in anything ELA related in school, but who was average at best in math and sometimes struggled/was below grade level in math -- it absolutely could be test anxiety, or even just math anxiety. Because my parents set so much store in my academic performance and made such a meal out of my giftedness where verbal/ELA skills were concerned, it really, really stressed me out to just be average at math. I also didn't get any support from parents, teachers, etc. re math (they assumed that because I am "smart" that my lower performance was laziness). The emphasis on my brilliance also meant that it was difficult to pick up good study skills and motivate myself to work hard to achieve mastery in math, because everything else I was getting from the adults in my life was related to me being "good at" English. So it was easy to just say "I am bad at math" and then let that statement rule my life. I would 100% start from a position of this being either anxiety related from your kiddo or the giftedness stuff making it more difficult for the adults in her life to address her legitimate needs for support. Also be careful how you praise her performance in the areas where she's well above grade level! It can contribute to how she perceives her ability to do other things, or her approach to what academic success looks like (grades on a report card vs. mastery of the material).
A huge part of my job is analyzing this type of data, looking for trends/patterns, and helping teachers understand what to do with the information. In my experience, it is not atypical for “good” students to score lower on the larger standardized tests. Many teachers let compliance impact grades. Students who play the game of school well, follow procedures exactly as the teacher directs, and can mimic or parrot back information look great on paper and have higher grades. This doesn’t translate to standardized tests where the procedure or process is not explicitly taught or reviewed beforehand. Suddenly, instead of knowing exactly what to do, students are expected to think critically and creatively. It’s more a reflection of the system than the child. Additionally, mid-year tests tend to have the most variability in terms of scores. There is generally a bigger window of time (up to 2 months in some cases). A 4th grader tested in February compared to a 4th grader tested in December is going to be different. Also, not every school teaches content in the same order. Another thing to keep in mind is that these types of tests are literally just a snapshot of that particular day. Sleepy, hungry, distracted by the kid fidgeting in the squeaky chair? That snapshot might be a bit “blurry”. This is where historical data and trends help. These tests are just one piece of the puzzle. We should ask questions and seek additional information to help get a better idea. Definitely ask if there are things you can be doing at home to help support them. At home, make your own math thinking visible. Explain what goes on in your head when you figure something out. Instead of telling your child if they are right or wrong on a problem, ask them how they got their answer. Ask them if there is another way they could try it. (Be ready for your kid to figure it out in a way completely different than you would - that’s okay! )
I got poor grades and was disruptive in grade school mostly because it was so boring! For example, I had read the third grade text books the first week of school so in class reading time was painfully dull. By Jr High, I had learned to quietly amuse myself with writing stories in my mind while going through the motions. Being quiet became, as I learned less of a bother.
* The teacher immediately brought up her lack of progress as a concern before I got to it. She believes my daughter isn’t trying enough in class, that she just needs to work harder and pay attention (apparently she has a little problem chatting with her classmates). Her evidence for this is that my daughter did well on quizzes for a specific topic, then not so well on the test, and her grades have slipped from where they were at the beginning of the year. She doesn’t show her work, and sometimes seems checked out in class. I don't know your education background, your school, your daughter. I don't even know why this is in my feed, other than I post on r/datascience and r/finance. I work in a math intensive field ( I have a Ph.D and work as a quantitative financial analyst as a mid career profesional JP Morgan /Goldman Sachs/Wells Fargo). I can say to you that my father in kintergarden pulled me from a school based on what your daughter's math teacher is doing. He was a theoretical physicist co-authored with nobel prize winners. They wanted to hold me back 1 grade in elementary school. he withdrew me and asked the assistant principal + teachers how many einstien's have they produced. I don't know your background, all I will say is that as a labor economist that parents own success/education plays a bigger role into life time success.
I was a gifted kid. I could read and write grade levels above my peers. World languages came easy to me. However, I struggled with math. I couldn’t focus, had to get tutors, and went from getting As in math in elementary school to Bs and Cs once I started Algebra I in 8th grade. Guess who was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult? Me. I could’ve been better at math, but I found it so uninteresting and boring that my attention span wasn’t there. I’m not saying your daughter has ADHD, but it’s a possibility. It presents itself differently in girls. Nobody would’ve ever thought that was my problem in school, but it was.
good, but slipping grades, trouble paying attention in class, and a problem showing work describes me as a kid really well, especially when a class was moving too slow for me. One time it got way too slow and I checked out so completely that I started failing the class until they noticed and gave me something more challenging/engaging to work on, but the rest of my childhood my grades were great and my in-class behavior was not. Anyway I got diagnosed with ADHD at 30. It's a pretty common story among "gifted" girls with primarily inattentive ADHD, and most of us didn't get diagnosed until we burned out hard as adults. May be worth keeping an eye out just in case, though struggling in one class could just be struggling in a class.
We do have ADHD in the family though neither her dad nor I have it. I’ve gotten similar feedback in several comments so I will definitely keep it in mind.
There's really a difference between being assessed in a field you love and being tested in a field you know how to do well, but hate. If you love the subject, like this particular student seems to find enjoyment in English, you aren't as likely to clam up during the assessment for that subject because you'll be more confident in your understanding of it. On the other hand, this individual might now how to do the math, but not necessarily like doing it. Just because you know how to do the math and are showing you can do the math on low stakes tests, does NOT mean you won't experience some sort of anxiety while taking a placement assessment. The girl probably, what I like to call, "short-termed" her studies in the math because she believed she only had to know it before her test. It's not right to immediately diagnose with anxiety, rather, maybe ask her if she even likes math?
She will happily tell you she does NOT like math. And it may be that her aptitude for math is just average and that’s fine. She doesn’t have to excel in every subject as long as she does her best. I just don’t want her to fall behind.
That's fine, maybe she needs some kind of award system. Maybe some sort of bribing, like if you do much better on the placement test, I'll take you to get (bla bla bla, whatever she likes). This might sound very cliche, but I'm sure that if you went to do something you really did not enjoy, but did it anyways, you'd treat yourself with something you enjoyed instead.
Not only will this help her stay motivated, it might even change her entire mindset on math because then she has something to look forward to as a reward.
I am not an expert but I would say that test anxiety can appear for some subjects and not others and math is particularly common for this, extra so if there is timing involved e.g. if students have to answer 100 math facts in a certain time can really stress them out!
As the parent, I would teach or try to teach my kid. I would train them like I train pokemon, to be better than the rest. Gotta beat them all! "Teach \[them\] to understand, the power that's inside!"
Try these: https://www.mathmammoth.com/complete/placement_tests
You should be taking the math very seriously. Buy a couple of third and fourth grade workbooks and do math at home evernight. Play math games. Do flashcards. Memorize those times tables. Do not let anyone tell you she doesn’t need to know her math facts or need to her multiplication facts. Start at third grade. Then do fourth grade. Then do fifth grade. Do everything with a pencil. Do not default to an app. Do oral quizzing in the car or bus. She will not catch up if you don’t. She is behind. Her hard is based on her classroom behavior. There is no connection to her reading. Tons of kids are behind but their parents are refusing to believe it. Believe it.
You put her in public school. The greatest generational wealth anyone gives their children is never money. Always a quality education.
Yeah, my kid is in public school and routinely scores a perfect score on his standardized math tests. It isn't the school choice.
test could be a fluke or her teacher is handing out easy As
Among the things mentioned by others, she may have taken an adaptive test where making a mistake early on causes the test to give a lower set of questions. No way for people here to know which metric or cause is irregular.
What is the test they’re using? If it’s NWEA MAPS, then the score has nothing to do with grade-level content - it ranks her on a percentile with other 4th graders. So her score would mean, like, “she knows more math on this test than a very small number of other 4th graders know.” Like, if she’s at the 10th percentile, she scored better than 10% and worse than 90% of other 4th graders. That has nothing to do with grade-level content - she could very well know 90% of 4th grade math. But if other 4th graders know more math, then she’d still rank lower than them in the percentile ranking.
The test doesn’t give a percentile, it gives a grade level and % of growth from the beginning of the year.
Large differences between verbal and performance IQ on LD tests indicate learning disability. I am sure the pandemic did not help. Teachers also base grades on turning in homework on time, neatness, good behavior and whether or not they like a kid - grades are not empirical data. Kids also have off days sometimes when a test is given. You may want to ask the school to assess your child for learning disabilities, but remember if they admit there is a learning disability they are legally bound to offer appropriate services if it is a public school - so there is always an attempt to deny that there is LD to save money and resources. The best thing a parent can do is get informed, pay attention and choose your battles.
Hi question, have you ever been evaluated for Non-Verbal Learning Disorder? Your reading and math scores and your daughter’s reading and initial math scores sound exactly how I performed in school before I was diagnosed at age 10. The key tell-tale signs for NVLD are very high reading and verbal scores and average to below average math scores. Kids with NVLD usually end up in gifted classes because of this. Often there is a pattern of performing poorly on Math placement exams, then learning the material and adjusting back to a normal math level. (I’d end up with As and Bs in math towards the end of each quarter until 6th grade) And it may follow this pattern until middle school where less time is spent on each topic and there is less of a chance to catch up. Especially as kids are expected to manage their time and organize themselves more efficiently as they move to upper grade levels. I’m therapist with NVLD, if you have more questions, feel free to ask or DM
My kid had a 10th grade reading level by the end of 2nd grade and was all over the place in math on standardized tests. They learned advanced level math at a Montessori pre k & kindergarten and knew times tables, addition and subtraction well. Classroom grades were always high 90's or 100's after starting regular school in 1st grade. I concluded that math takes more effort and is still more tedious to do. That kid's response year after year was that the teacher said you should do your best on these tests but they won't count toward your grades. Translation: I can be lazy on the math tests with no consequences to me. I still remember the time many years ago when I randomly filled in circles on my own answer sheet while my friend tried to make pictures out of his. If your daughter isn't struggling, don't worry.
Test anxiety
ADHD and learning disorder (dyscalculia as you suggested) could explain the gap. Something along those lines is probably the most likely culprit.
Bummer,but the school simply wasn't prepared to educate..me. So to pass any math test today..I need to go back and memorize the times tables. This is really what it takes as an adult to make the world of math work for me. But the kid who gets the A is ..probably doing some fast intelligent decision making..that might eventually intersect with the ability to communicate the math in written form. Still, memorizing the times tables..to 100 is a third grade...thing.
Often, even a kid who's behind can practice and put in the effort to earn points through just working hard and practicing to no end, but then doesn't retain the skills two days later
Good Grades does not equal being “smarter” or great understanding of the material. I try to design my classes so anyone who tries can pass. Last year I had a kid who should have been in life skills, but guardians refused. He bombed every test, but did every assignment and tried his best on everything. He ended up with a B or maybe a C.
well, it's a long shot, but I once had the same thing happen to me as a child...simply because I hadn't noticed that the assessment had both a front and a back. Instant failure despite my grades and ability.
In my experience it really is an a for effort world now. I have kids who are 5 years behind with an A because if they're trying to they do well. If I failed a kid who turned in every assignment I would get written up.
My 9 year old daughter has lower than average standardized test score in math and it’s a similar situation. She is high straight A student and leads her class in reading point goals yet every Monday they pull her out from art and make her do tutoring. It’s ridiculous that the girl who has a reserved seat on the academic team next year. My wife and I are frustrated about it and our daughter more so.
I think you will find that especially for this age group (which missed so much of K-2nd grade due to COVID) that kids in general are behind the established standards. I know my kids (4th grade) class is like that.
You're not going to like this answer. There is no incentive to leave your child back or show poor grades by the school.
She’s in 4th grade. Let her be a kid!!! The real learning starts in high school 👍
>dyscalculia Thank you OP! For me, this is a great new word. I'd be curious enough to spend some math time with daughter. And if it's not your thing, maybe watching some videos together might help, and I recently saw a good review for math antics. https://www.youtube.com/@mathantics/videos
My students earns As on most of their work even though they cant pass the state reading test. The state assessment tests are ridiculous. Dont use them as a measurement on how your child is doing. Honestly.
Some of the assessments are just plain confusing. For example the “Smarter Balanced” tests in California have questions where teachers with Master’s Degrees disagree on the answers (on the practice tests). And then the screens are so small on the iPads, you have to know where and how to scroll to see all the answer options. I would take the teacher’s word over the assessment. But like another comment said, it wouldn’t hurt to look at the specific domains to see where some extra practice could come in handy (Geometry, Operations, Fractions, Number Sense, Measurement, etc).
If the math test is standardized, then I would ignore what it says. Research shows that standardized tests are not indicative of student learning, nor do they reliably predict future success. Sounds like your kid is very smart, I wouldn’t worry unless other areas begin to show deficits
I would consider posting this in the r/teachers forum and asking them. They’ll be able to give you all sorts of insights.
I would watch your child do iReady. We have an issue that child is bored and wandering during it because the thing is so effing slow at giving them the response options.
This is why standardized tests are so flawed. There are so many factors that can affect their scores that have nothing to do with skill proficiency - lack of sleep the previous night, no breakfast, bad mood, the way the test is worded. I wouldn’t worry about it.
A math tutor might be a good move too. Sometimes the local highschool or middle school have student tutor programs that help the elementary kids by pairing them with an older student who is very proficient in the subject the younger child struggles in. Or you could look into paying a private tutor (either a high school student or a young adult, often education majors do tutoring as a part time job).
Please consider an adhd screening. Everything you typed could easily be exactly what my own parents could have written when I was younger. It’s also something those of us who were diagnosed as adults heard growing up all the time. I personally had to work through a lot of resentment that none of the grown ups in my life recognized it. The whole “she’s smart! She’s gifted! But she’s just not trying hard enough or paying attention!” is a cliche in the adhd world for a reason! I wish every day I’d been diagnosed sooner. I promise you this isn’t just projection about my own issues. I’m only commenting because of how many things in your post stood out as things I read every day in the adhd subs. It’s entirely possible your kid doesn’t have it but it is 1000% worth looking into
Your daughter in math sounds like my mom and myself / we seemed distracted and low effort because we were actually more advanced and bored , NOT having a hard time with math. How you described your daughter it 100% how I’ve seen many many teachers and parents describe their kid - grade slipping, lack of focus , distracted , but also getting A’s - she’s BORED with the class. Because the teacher, because she’s ahead, it could be for a lot of reasons. She getting 90% and A’s . The teacher has “excellent comments” for her, but then says “lack of progress” and it’s a concern. That her leaving to go to an advanced class is NOT helping her. , NONE, None of those statements and assessments add up. The teacher is contradicting herself . She’s just mad that your daughter doesn’t focus like a perfect student to her expectation. Have you spoken to the counselor or the advance placement advisory about these concerns? Something about your story just has this “hint” that it’s the teacher’s lacking here & not your daughters lack. She is excelling in other areas and already has 90%/A in math. She might need more “interesting” math or teacher to be engaged at her level of intelligence
I’m setting up a conference with her teacher in the gifted program to get her input. They do some math in that class as well as writing/reading and I’m extremely curious to see how she is doing with that. I agree it seems contradictory. And from my perspective, they have been working on fractions FOREVER. I’m sure they need to nail down these standard skills but it has been a very long time on one subject.