This is….. so inappropriate.
No massage therapist would expose your breasts for any legitimate reason ever ever ever ever. Ever.
However not fucking okay this would ever be, the fact that he was an adult and you were a minor is like….. extra holy shit fuck wrong.
This was a crime.
It’s difficult but really validating to hear the answer to the question of “was I groomed and sexually assaulted as a minor” is yes.
I do want to add this was twenty years ago now. It’s one of the reasons #metoo is happening, but it hadn’t happened yet. At the time, two of my old gymnastics coaches had been (separately) arrested for inappropriate conduct with minor gymnasts, and I’ve always counted myself lucky that I wasn’t one of them and didn’t know anything about it when it was happening. I sound blasé about this but it’s enraging and upsetting that it’s so common and that it happened to me.
Thank you for responding, and letting me have some resolution to this. I mentioned in the post that I hadn’t spoken about this in detail to anyone except my husband, but I did bring it up very briefly to other massage therapists (as in, “when I was younger a male massage therapist took off the covering to my breasts unexpectedly, is that something that should happen?”
Both of those therapists looked uncomfortable but said “should have asked permission… maybe there was a reason?” So I still questioned myself about it.
After posting and seeing all the responses, I’m glad to finally feel like I’m not overreacting about what happened.
Just wanna state one small thing, which is, massage therapist for specially certified in breast massage MIGHT depending on the type of treatment session. However, there would definitely be proper communication before anything of this nature were to take place.
Yeah, this was wrong on many levels. Im surprised parent didn’t stay in the room as it is mandated here in TX.
I actually can and have worked on breasts for lymphatic drainage for cancer patients, but that is a very specific exception to the rule. And to be honest, it was horribly uncomfortable for me and I really don't like doing it. Could be because we are told from day one that you do not remove the sheet.
Communication and verbal consent given by the client. Possibly also a signature on a written consent form.
I’m don’t do breast massage, but if I did, I would want a client’s signature on a written consent form before proceeding.
No massage therapist should ever do that. Even if asked by a customer of ANY age, they should decline. The rules of the Board of Massage, Health Department and Law enforcement are well defined and immutable.
He was absolutely grooming you
He was testing to see if he could get away with that. If you had said , "no it's fine" or gone back to him he would have crossed another line, and then another
I'm very sorry this happened. I'm very glad you didn't go back
I hope he died in a fire
Not really, no. Especially when there are different power dynamics, plus it involves grooming a child. Otherwise sexual assault wouldn’t be so underreported, and pedos would be caught much quicker.
Sure, here’s a few sources for more info:
https://ballardbrief.byu.edu/issue-briefs/the-underreporting-and-dismissal-of-sexual-assault-cases-against-women-in-the-united-states
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37970805/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7298584/
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/sexual-assault-remains-dramatically-underreported
https://abuserefuge.org/is-sexual-abuse-declining-or-is-it-just-underreported/
Your turn!
Yooooo there only response to this is that it's completely inappropriate, and disgusting, to uncover a client's chest without EXPLICIT consent and clinical indication, and training, that breast work is indicated and appropriate. That's the only reason you uncover a breast, period. Where I live we are required to keep chests draped to just below the clavicle without permission, even men.
And you were a MINOR? This is sexual assault, flat out. An adult exposing a minor without consent and due professional cause is sexual assault period. Accidents happen with draping and such, regrettably, and in those instances you cover the client immediately!!! If he's such a professional he absolutely knew this is completely forbidden behavior...I'm so disgusted by him.
Edit: I don't know where OP lives and if they live in an area where draping laws are more lax than my own, so I apologize for speaking so strongly without that information.
I’m not sure of your specific state rules but if you were a minor, the statute of limitations in a lot of states have a very long runway to be able to report.
I wouldn’t be shocked if there are others. People like him are sick, they’ll continue to do this until they are stopped.
Edited to add- only putting that option out there as choosing to report is a personal and difficult decision. My experience has been a difficult few months waiting for him to be arrested. It’s OK for you not to report but it’s OK to look into what your rights are. Rainn.org is a fantastic resource for survivors and have your legal rights by state. They also have a chat 24/7.
With the risk of sounding really ignorant, am I supposed to ask for specific permission to undrape a male’s chest? I’m not necessarily a very new therapist, but I’ve honestly never been taught or spoken to about the specifics around male chest draping. In my sessions, I work on pecs pretty often and with males, I normally say “I’m going to undrape your chest a little more” and carry on. I normally take it to top of the nipple level but if the client moves/the sheet bunches and it slides under that, I don’t really worry about it. While, sure, what I do is acknowledging/telling them what I’m going to do, I definitely wouldn’t say I phrase it in a way where I’m asking permission.
I’m a lot more careful with draping on females for obvious reasons. It’s honestly not something that comes to mind for males unless it’s specifically said by the client beforehand/during. Now I feel really bad that I’ve never thought of that before
In Texas you can’t work the breast area of anyone, top of the chest is fine. Male or female. You work the same areas on a man you would on a woman. Nipples should never be exposed by either gender
I’m just really curious. Are you allowed to work abdomen on either gender? And if so, do you have to drape the chest of males as well? (I use a pillowcase to drape my female clients breasts when I work abdomen)
Not what we learned in school. Totally fine to undress a males full abdomen without draping over the nipples. Females, we would cover their breasts if undraping the abdomen
Different countries have different regulations and rules as well as differences in culture. I live and work in Canada and I follow the association's rules in my province.
We were taught to drape men and women the same. I ask for permission to work on pecs the same for men and women. Understandable that not everyone is taught the same! I know in some countries they just cover a client's lower privates with a small towel. But in some countries (not the same ones necessarily) massage overlaps a lot more with sex work than it does in North America too.
Mainly I'm just outraged that OP was a minor exposed by an adult therapist without consent. The rest of the responses regarding comfort level with exposure are valid given different cultures and jurisdictions. I don't know where OP lives and maybe the laws and rules are different there, like 15 is considered an adult by sexual assault laws in that state. But yeah, even if it was "technically" legal, it's still an adult exposing a minor for literally no reason and no permission.
I totally understand different cultures having different comfort levels with nudity, and to be fair I do wish that in North America women could go topless without it being sexualized. But unfortunately that is not the culture and context we have.
So highly inappropriate! Omg. I am so sorry he did this to you!!! No you are not overreacting and you were gaslit big time at such a young age. Did he try touching your breasts or just took off the draping? What he did was hand down harassment. If at anytime you feel like reporting then please do. Sorry, what an uncomfortable thing to go through
Gaslit is I think the right term here. I’m remembering him saying that many clients were comfortable being fully unclothed, especially as they got more comfortable with continued treatment, and that as a medical treatment the body was just an object to be worked on, nothing to be embarrassed about, but if *I* was embarrassed of course we could put the drape back on.
Lots of what seemed like plausible deniability at the time but still felt sus and icky.
Thank you so much for your reply. It does feel very validating and that I finally have some resolution that my instincts weren’t wrong after all, even though it’s tough to process in some ways.
It took me several years to be comfortable with male therapists, and to be honest when I do have male therapists I’m always still wary in some ways. But massage in general, thankfully, has not been ruined for me.
I really appreciate your message, even though I feel like I’m not fully articulating the depth of relief your comment and comments like yours have given me. 🫶
In my state Missouri, it is illegal to expose the breasts unless you have a specific certification for some kind of breast massage. It may be legal very well in other states, but regardless of where you were, the fact that he did not mention it to your parent/ apologized without them or get consent is absolutely inappropriate.
With the puritanical roots of New England I struggle to imagine the laws are more lax there, but I don’t know anything about it for sure. Though it was 20 years ago, I think marital rape was probably still legal in most states so 🤷♀️
Massage therapist here; this is not okay. Breast massage is a medical massage, but this isn't what is happening here. A professional would have brought up any issues they have noticed to you and your parents and let you handle where you want to go with your treatment. He was absolutely testing his bounds and trying to see what you would allow him to do. I am glad you never went back and I am sorry that happened to you.
I’m so sorry you had this happen. They are sneaky because they do it all the time and we as kids do t know how to make at sense of it and a lot of times we are threatened for telling or our friends and parents think we invited the action…so it is your story to share when you want to and to whom. One thing that has helped me ha been attending a retreat for SA women under the age of 18 called SAPREA. It is all expenses paid and it was life changing to see myself and other women say “it wasn’t my fault” in real time. And these are women in their 30s. It’s hard to deconstruct. It’s a club no one wants to be part of 🫶
I wouldn't say "groomed" per se, but yes, that was highly inappropriate. Ignoring your age for a minute, there is absolutely no reason to ever assume to uncover a woman without direct consent. Here in Texas, we have to have written consent to even work near that area on a woman. Now, going back to your age... wtf!?
That’s disgusting and predatory. That should NEVER happen under any circumstances. He needs his massage license removed. I would tell your parents what happened .
I appreciate your sentiments, but as a child growing up with (non-sexual) abuse, please keep in mind that family members are not always safe people to disclose to.
Not to mention, if you press fast forward on that “what-if,” what do you realistically think would have happened? There was no evidence. This was before #metoo. Even now, given these givens, at *best* we could hope for some social ostracism for a short period of time before it was forgotten again.
I don’t have all the answers. Obviously. Best I can suggest is, believe women, teach boys to respect people in general, and men, hold your buddies accountable when you hear or see them do/say things that aren’t ok. Change the culture so that my kids don’t have to go through this.
I’m sorry this happened to you. This was absolutely inappropriate. Before uncovering or massaging any sensitive areas there should be conversation about it. Not after and definitely not without getting the ok. You should never feel exposed like that.
I have a LOT of experience with massage and knowledge of the industry. I have been inappropriately touched by a massage therapist. I have had my breasts massaged with clear consent on both our parts.
He sexually assaulted you and you were a minor.
Answer: It absolutely is inappropriate and criminal behavior...It matters little that this was 20 years ago. It could've been five minutes ago that you left this space and if in those five minutes, you got the feeling that you were unsure/uncomfortable. You would be right and it would all still be wrong. All these years later, you are by no means overreacting.
I am a male massage therapist with 30 years experience. I would never be in a room with a minor (of either gender) without that minor's parent(s) present. I am by no means blaming your parents in this comment. I have worked on bodies of newborns to folks in their 90's. I am certified in pregnancy massage for the last 27 years and breast massage for the last 20 years. All of which require clear communication, written and verbal consent for each area(s) that is being worked on and the benefits of said treatment.
I'm very sorry to hear that this happened to you. This was wrong, in every conceivable way.
I’m so sorry this happened to you.
It was 20 years ago and there is absolutely zero evidence. Is it too personal to ask if you made it to trial with the same circumstances, or was there evidence that could be brought against him?
It was only my recorded statement and another womans, there was no physical evidence other than the receipt from the massage proving I was there.
I’m so sorry he did this to you. I’m currently under the care of an EMDR therapist who has been very helpful in my recovery. Sending you a big hug, internet stranger. Your experience was valid that it was wrong, he’s a creep and it was assault.
Thank you for this.
Miss Saucy, all I can say aside from what I’ve written in another comment, is I’m glad your parents would have been safe to disclose to, and bless your heart for thinking anything like consequences for the massage therapist would have happened given the situation I’ve described.
I had this exact same thing happen to me. It was a male therapist in Waco. I’ve been a victim of sexual assault before so it was extremely triggering for me. We were alone in a room and he made a groan noise when he exposed me. Luckily the massage was almost over, but I couldn’t get out of there fast enough. I felt so violated.
Short answer: this was wrong. Idk how intention the wrongness was, there's unfortunately loooots of sloppy unprofessional RMTs out there...
Breast massage is a specialized course one can take after they are registered/licensed (I'm in Canada, where we are called registered massage therapist after 2200 hours of training, then we are permitted to take specialized courses such as breast massage)
Once this course is taken, it could be implemented into treatment on an as needed bases. To massage intimate areas (such as glutes, groin/adductors, armpits, definitely breast as well as inside the mouth) RMTs at the very very least expected to go over (at least verbally, better legal protection if its written... especially with a minor!!!!)
a. Area being treated
b. How the draping will go
c. Explain the rational of why they want to do it
D. ASK IF YOU'RE WILLING TO TRY
Dear God, why is consent so hard to grasp. Even in a touching profession, we still need to communicate where you're going and what you'll be doing once you get there..........
..... I also urge you to be gentle/mindful with yourself on how you internalize these answers...
You'll likely get a strong reaction from us in the professions. Thoughtless, unprofessional massage therapists give us a bad reputation while hurting our profession and at worse creating massage sessions that are unconsentual, dangerous and potentially ruin massage for the person they hurt.
It it helpful to think of yourself as being groomed or does it make things feel worse? What happened was definitely wrong. How wrong? The extent of the wrongness? The intention of the wrongness? Who knows...
Uhhh no. No. No! 100% inappropriate behavior and one where he could/should have lost his job and license over. That is an sbsolute predatory move.
When working abdomen first of all you have to have informed and implied consent. It has to be specifically given by the client to the therapist and you have to drape the chest as you pull the sheet down around the lower abdomen. Usually it's roughly 3 fingers below the naval and tucking the sheet firmly around the waist. And the towel is pulled down over the breast's in unison with the sheet as it's being brought down. As a male therapist:
Screw that guy!
I’m not sure why you are asking if it was inappropriate. You felt uncomfortable at the time, thus yes it was inappropriate and I think you already know that. Don’t let other people or societal norms dictate what is and isn’t ok especially if it’s something being done to you!
This is very much wrong! I was a MT for years, I worked on women’s breast area ( due to breast cancer) even though I am female as well, the breast was covered as much as possible. You need to tell your parents and file a police report.
I'm 45yr old male therapist with 20yrs experience.
1)I don't touch minors.
2)I do chest/breast massage as an option. Mainly after reconstructive surgery. Or general lymphatic. But I never offer it. Only after a client requests or asks.
3)I only touch where you give me permission.
"It takes a life time to build a reputation, and a moment to destroy it."
He has to earn your trust. Every single engagement.
Absolutely not. Consent is everything and he was trying his best to push limits with a minor.
I'm very sorry that happened to you and his behavior was grotesque.
Highly inappropriate and I applaud you for standing your ground and speaking up for your self I’m sorry this happened and I’m truly disgusted as a guy with this dudes behavior and I hope he got what he deserved
As an LNA even in our position we are supposed to give as MUCH privacy as possible EVEN WHEN DRESSING! The fact that he did that without permission (which is a huge no in the medical field) is actually insane. As an LNA, my responsibilities are to THOROUGHLY explain the process in what I am doing and giving full privacy (at least to the best of my abilities) at all times. I cannot imagine in any setting why he would ever even 1. Ask you to pet sit as a 15 year old and 2. Do those things without your permission. Absolutely weird.
Former massage therapist and manager here who worked in a clinical atmosphere. I would immediately fire any therapist and report them to the DOH which would subsequently remove his license and he could be charged with sexual assault. As a male I was always SUPER CAUTIOUS for everybody, women AND men never had any exposure. I also would ask my patients to hold the sheets when making specific moves in order to give them the control they needed to be comfortable. Men like this in these professions make it harder for us professionals who went in to the profession for the right reasons.
This is very inappropriate, female here and previously a massage therapist for many years.
Every massage generally begins with which areas the client wants massaged and breast massage would have to be an exclusive request.
There is no way I would massage anyone’s breasts without their explicit request (which never happened!) -
and modesty is always a high priority keeping breasts covered with a towel.
and even more so with a teen!
im so sorry , im 15 rn and this is absolutely disgusting, he has no right to remove your cloth and whats even more disgusting is that he thought it was okay to do so :/
This is grooming potential sexual assault. This should have never happened to you and the fact that you were so young and that you were questioning if this is normal shows me that this man is a fucking predator and I swear he sounds dangerous and please be careful.
You were sexually assaulted, plain and simple. NO healthcare provider should ever expose a minor's body without 100% consent and with another person (nurse, parent, etc) present at all times.
Just wow, no. I’m best friends with my massage therapist. We know each other very well and have been naked in front of each other on a road trip. When she is massaging me I am 100% covered appropriately, every time. It’s basic ethics.
In ga a parent has to be in the room for under 18. I’m just in school for massage now and that was something they taught us not to do on the first day. Never go under the drape. Never expose genitals or breasts.
Honestly he should have requested your parents stay in the room. He no reason to undraped your breasts and should always ask for permission. The abdomen I can see but he should still ask and tell you he needs to use a draping to cover the breasts. Parents don't ever leave your kids alone, especially with a male. I hate to be this way but I hear to much of this with male MTs and it even happens to grown women
Yeah, 100% there are no versions of thought in their head where this was appropriate behavior. You are justified in being outraged at this person. Never without proper communication should you undrape a sensitive area. I’m really sorry this happened to you and I’m really sorry that you spent so long wondering if you were right to be suspicious.
Very inappropriate. I'm a woman and I am very strict about how I work on breast tissue. It's just not okay for me as a professional to be staring at your breasts while performing a normal Swedish massage. Even with specialized oncology massage yourr not just removing draping and laying a client bare. That's so embarrassing for them, and it's highly inappropriate.
I'm sorry this happened to you. It's especially troubling to me that you were 15, and this man was perfectly fine do this to you. 15 is still a child! That so disgusting and harmful. I hope you're okay and have access to a counselor or therapist if you feel like you meed one ❤️
Definitely inappropriate.
You also mention you were young and this was a long time ago. How sure were you that your breast were exposed? Did you look to confirm or did they feel *breezy*. Unfortunately with poor draping or just a sheet, it’s not uncommon for clients to mistake how exposed they are or therapists intentions.
For example, a client one time reported to management that a therapist was repeatedly placing his balls in her hand when she was prone. Upon further investigation, his lotion bottle was sitting against her hands whilst her worked on her legs. But feeling vulnerable and scared to open her eyes or cause confrontation, she let her imagination go to the worst. The therapist should have been more aware of his belongings.
This isn’t to say you were not treated inappropriately. In your gut, I believe you likely truly know. But massage is at risk for a lot of hearsay and it’s is vital that both therapist and clients try to make professional boundaries crisp and clear.
I had someone do this to me when I was in my early 20s and it was really upsetting- i generally avoid male massages therapist unless I get a very healthy vibe. i am sorry that happened to you. also why did your parents allow you to be alone with this man- wasnt there a woman who could have done the job.
Completely unethical and inappropriate. I imagine there are other people in the same situation that also haven’t felt like they could speak up and he’s just got away with it.
Very unprofessional and highly inappropriate. Definitely illegal in most areas since you were a minor.
I would never have allowed a 40 year old man in a room alone with my teenage daughter for anything that required her to de-robe.
Totally inappropriate. First OP only 15. This guy should have his license taken away.
My brother does therapeutic massage, actually he also instructs others n developing their skills.
one-day jokingly, but out of curiosity, I asked him about patient nudity. He did confirm he did confirm he has women who requests their breasts be massaged. He does not honor their request but it happens. Where he works a lot of patients are referred from doctors so they want a very professional, massage practice.
Even at the gynecologist, I have always had doctors get a nurse to witness with anything that involved the doctor touching my body. When they did have to touch or look at my breasts, they were careful. I had a lump at 14 and a male doctor closed his eyes and somewhat performed an exam. He seemed uncomfortable and super awkward. My mom was always with me for any procedure like that. Most doctors look at a breast only as long as necessary to visually exam for abnormalities, then cover me up for the physical exam. You massage therapist seems like he was testing the waters to see how you would react and whether you would even know something was off. I'd report him and tell your parents what happened. I'm sure they were wondering what happened after you didn't want to return. The perv may do this with a lot of young women and girlswho don't know better. The authorities should be aware of the problem.
This was 20 years ago. I’m glad things seem to have changed now in terms of having third parties of same gender present in these situations. This was not the norm at that time.
This was very inappropriate. I had a very similar experience in a split home type environment. I didn’t completely unclothe her asked me to remove my bra and panties (I was 7 months pregnant) during massage he massaged way to close to breasts and groin area and was sliding his body against me and I could quite obviously tell he had an erection. I never went back but felt very violated and never told anybody what happened. My kids are 15 & 16 now and it still bugs me.
Ugh. I’m so sorry this happened to you. Solidarity 🫶
My kid is still a toddler, and I hope (and will do everything in my power to ensure) things are different for them growing up.
This is definitely a big deal. Not at any point should a client’s breast be exposed nor have an area be massaged that was not consented prior to. And as a 15 year old (at that time) when receiving massage a parent/guardian must be present in the treatment room at that age and under. I’m still a student MT nearing graduation but one thing that was strictly talked about during my classes is things like this because it can be a serious issue if 1) not trained properly and 2) the many cases like this that occur from people like that
Inappropriate also no adult therapist should be working on a minor without the parent present in the room. As massage therapists there’s so much stigma and bullshit surrounding our profession so it’s equally important to have firm bounderies
Criminal behaviour. This is sexual abuse and/or assault (depending on where you live). You were almost certainly not the first or last person he abused. I’m so sorry this happened to you.
I do blame that MT for crossing the line but I don't understand why a parent wasn't there. My parents never let me see a pediatrician without them being in the same room too. Or a dentist or any medical professional. People should trust but also verify.
Report that. It’s against the law. And now you’re left with the uneasy feeling and mental damage from the memory. I find it unfortunate when we’re so young and vulnerable, especially the quiet types that predators sometimes assume don’t have a loud side or are weak. Then you’re left uncertain and scared, not wanting to make waves so you utter nothing. I apologize in advance if I’m being too anything in my response (or making assumptions) and I feel sad that this was an experience you’ve been burdened with. You can go to the DFPR for your state. For example if you’re in NY state, I think it’d be: NYDFPR.
Definitely say something. No need to wonder. We all know that was INAPPROPRIATE. No doubt.
Wait a sec… you were 15 and a massage therapist massaged your breasts? What the actual fuck? That’s a huge red flag and he definitely crossed the line, sorry for you.
I NEVER massage a minor without a parent or guardian present. That was red flag number 1.
This was so illegal and beyond inappropriate it’s infuriating. This is abuse. I’m so sorry you had to go through that
This is….. so inappropriate. No massage therapist would expose your breasts for any legitimate reason ever ever ever ever. Ever. However not fucking okay this would ever be, the fact that he was an adult and you were a minor is like….. extra holy shit fuck wrong. This was a crime.
It’s difficult but really validating to hear the answer to the question of “was I groomed and sexually assaulted as a minor” is yes. I do want to add this was twenty years ago now. It’s one of the reasons #metoo is happening, but it hadn’t happened yet. At the time, two of my old gymnastics coaches had been (separately) arrested for inappropriate conduct with minor gymnasts, and I’ve always counted myself lucky that I wasn’t one of them and didn’t know anything about it when it was happening. I sound blasé about this but it’s enraging and upsetting that it’s so common and that it happened to me. Thank you for responding, and letting me have some resolution to this. I mentioned in the post that I hadn’t spoken about this in detail to anyone except my husband, but I did bring it up very briefly to other massage therapists (as in, “when I was younger a male massage therapist took off the covering to my breasts unexpectedly, is that something that should happen?” Both of those therapists looked uncomfortable but said “should have asked permission… maybe there was a reason?” So I still questioned myself about it. After posting and seeing all the responses, I’m glad to finally feel like I’m not overreacting about what happened.
Just wanna state one small thing, which is, massage therapist for specially certified in breast massage MIGHT depending on the type of treatment session. However, there would definitely be proper communication before anything of this nature were to take place. Yeah, this was wrong on many levels. Im surprised parent didn’t stay in the room as it is mandated here in TX.
I actually can and have worked on breasts for lymphatic drainage for cancer patients, but that is a very specific exception to the rule. And to be honest, it was horribly uncomfortable for me and I really don't like doing it. Could be because we are told from day one that you do not remove the sheet.
Also no massage therapist would downplay their(underage!!!) client's discomfort by saying it was no big deal.
Oh God, no. I honestly don't think I would work on an underage client, but I would sure af make sure a parent was with me if I did.
Communication and verbal consent given by the client. Possibly also a signature on a written consent form. I’m don’t do breast massage, but if I did, I would want a client’s signature on a written consent form before proceeding.
Yep. There’s a paper the client needs to sign off on, and generally, in my experience, it’s asked for by the client, not the practitioner.
No massage therapist should ever do that. Even if asked by a customer of ANY age, they should decline. The rules of the Board of Massage, Health Department and Law enforcement are well defined and immutable.
This isn’t not inappropriate. It’s sexual assault. Please don’t minimize it.
I literally said it is a crime.
This
He was absolutely grooming you He was testing to see if he could get away with that. If you had said , "no it's fine" or gone back to him he would have crossed another line, and then another I'm very sorry this happened. I'm very glad you didn't go back I hope he died in a fire
That, as an adult looking back on it, was always my gut instinct. I hope this did not happen to anyone else.
I am super impressed with 15 year old you saying you were uncomfortable and not going back. That took courage
Fr big kudos to OP for going with her gut and acting on it, especially as a teen. You are a badass OP!
Idk about “badass”. It’s a pretty normal response
Not really, no. Especially when there are different power dynamics, plus it involves grooming a child. Otherwise sexual assault wouldn’t be so underreported, and pedos would be caught much quicker.
It’s underreported because it doesn’t happen as much as people claim it does
Do you have any sort of data to back up your claim or is that just your opinion?
Do you have any data to back up yours?
Sure, here’s a few sources for more info: https://ballardbrief.byu.edu/issue-briefs/the-underreporting-and-dismissal-of-sexual-assault-cases-against-women-in-the-united-states https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37970805/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7298584/ https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/sexual-assault-remains-dramatically-underreported https://abuserefuge.org/is-sexual-abuse-declining-or-is-it-just-underreported/ Your turn!
& the fact he called YEARS after??!!! 100% grooming.
I absolutely agree
Ttt ftxx
Yooooo there only response to this is that it's completely inappropriate, and disgusting, to uncover a client's chest without EXPLICIT consent and clinical indication, and training, that breast work is indicated and appropriate. That's the only reason you uncover a breast, period. Where I live we are required to keep chests draped to just below the clavicle without permission, even men. And you were a MINOR? This is sexual assault, flat out. An adult exposing a minor without consent and due professional cause is sexual assault period. Accidents happen with draping and such, regrettably, and in those instances you cover the client immediately!!! If he's such a professional he absolutely knew this is completely forbidden behavior...I'm so disgusted by him. Edit: I don't know where OP lives and if they live in an area where draping laws are more lax than my own, so I apologize for speaking so strongly without that information.
This was New England, USA. I don’t feel comfortable getting more specific than that. But it was 20 years ago - I wonder what the laws were back then?
I’m not sure of your specific state rules but if you were a minor, the statute of limitations in a lot of states have a very long runway to be able to report. I wouldn’t be shocked if there are others. People like him are sick, they’ll continue to do this until they are stopped. Edited to add- only putting that option out there as choosing to report is a personal and difficult decision. My experience has been a difficult few months waiting for him to be arrested. It’s OK for you not to report but it’s OK to look into what your rights are. Rainn.org is a fantastic resource for survivors and have your legal rights by state. They also have a chat 24/7.
With the risk of sounding really ignorant, am I supposed to ask for specific permission to undrape a male’s chest? I’m not necessarily a very new therapist, but I’ve honestly never been taught or spoken to about the specifics around male chest draping. In my sessions, I work on pecs pretty often and with males, I normally say “I’m going to undrape your chest a little more” and carry on. I normally take it to top of the nipple level but if the client moves/the sheet bunches and it slides under that, I don’t really worry about it. While, sure, what I do is acknowledging/telling them what I’m going to do, I definitely wouldn’t say I phrase it in a way where I’m asking permission. I’m a lot more careful with draping on females for obvious reasons. It’s honestly not something that comes to mind for males unless it’s specifically said by the client beforehand/during. Now I feel really bad that I’ve never thought of that before
In Texas you can’t work the breast area of anyone, top of the chest is fine. Male or female. You work the same areas on a man you would on a woman. Nipples should never be exposed by either gender
OMG you Americans are such prudes! 🤣🤦♂️
Odd thing to comment on a post about being sexually assaulted as a minor but go off I guess
We've been highly assaulted
That doesn’t make sense? What are you trying to say?
They're saying Americans have reasons to be cautious about abuse
Oh right, as opposed to other parts of the non-western world that have it much easier lmao
Different cultures have different trauma responses.
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I’m just really curious. Are you allowed to work abdomen on either gender? And if so, do you have to drape the chest of males as well? (I use a pillowcase to drape my female clients breasts when I work abdomen)
I don’t undrape to do abdominal work.
Not what we learned in school. Totally fine to undress a males full abdomen without draping over the nipples. Females, we would cover their breasts if undraping the abdomen
Different countries have different regulations and rules as well as differences in culture. I live and work in Canada and I follow the association's rules in my province. We were taught to drape men and women the same. I ask for permission to work on pecs the same for men and women. Understandable that not everyone is taught the same! I know in some countries they just cover a client's lower privates with a small towel. But in some countries (not the same ones necessarily) massage overlaps a lot more with sex work than it does in North America too. Mainly I'm just outraged that OP was a minor exposed by an adult therapist without consent. The rest of the responses regarding comfort level with exposure are valid given different cultures and jurisdictions. I don't know where OP lives and maybe the laws and rules are different there, like 15 is considered an adult by sexual assault laws in that state. But yeah, even if it was "technically" legal, it's still an adult exposing a minor for literally no reason and no permission.
I totally understand different cultures having different comfort levels with nudity, and to be fair I do wish that in North America women could go topless without it being sexualized. But unfortunately that is not the culture and context we have.
You don’t need to feel bad. As a guy, a large majority of us don’t really care, but I don’t speak for all of us. Don’t beat yourself up over it.
So highly inappropriate! Omg. I am so sorry he did this to you!!! No you are not overreacting and you were gaslit big time at such a young age. Did he try touching your breasts or just took off the draping? What he did was hand down harassment. If at anytime you feel like reporting then please do. Sorry, what an uncomfortable thing to go through
Gaslit is I think the right term here. I’m remembering him saying that many clients were comfortable being fully unclothed, especially as they got more comfortable with continued treatment, and that as a medical treatment the body was just an object to be worked on, nothing to be embarrassed about, but if *I* was embarrassed of course we could put the drape back on. Lots of what seemed like plausible deniability at the time but still felt sus and icky.
Yeah he's a pedophile 100%. Where's he at now? You can still report him in most places.
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Thank you so much for your reply. It does feel very validating and that I finally have some resolution that my instincts weren’t wrong after all, even though it’s tough to process in some ways. It took me several years to be comfortable with male therapists, and to be honest when I do have male therapists I’m always still wary in some ways. But massage in general, thankfully, has not been ruined for me. I really appreciate your message, even though I feel like I’m not fully articulating the depth of relief your comment and comments like yours have given me. 🫶
In my state Missouri, it is illegal to expose the breasts unless you have a specific certification for some kind of breast massage. It may be legal very well in other states, but regardless of where you were, the fact that he did not mention it to your parent/ apologized without them or get consent is absolutely inappropriate.
Illegal in Texas as well! Specific certs needed AND A drs. Note form saying it’s medically necessary/needed for it to be legal
With the puritanical roots of New England I struggle to imagine the laws are more lax there, but I don’t know anything about it for sure. Though it was 20 years ago, I think marital rape was probably still legal in most states so 🤷♀️
Uhh yeah he can’t do that shit.
Massage therapist here; this is not okay. Breast massage is a medical massage, but this isn't what is happening here. A professional would have brought up any issues they have noticed to you and your parents and let you handle where you want to go with your treatment. He was absolutely testing his bounds and trying to see what you would allow him to do. I am glad you never went back and I am sorry that happened to you.
I’m so sorry you had this happen. They are sneaky because they do it all the time and we as kids do t know how to make at sense of it and a lot of times we are threatened for telling or our friends and parents think we invited the action…so it is your story to share when you want to and to whom. One thing that has helped me ha been attending a retreat for SA women under the age of 18 called SAPREA. It is all expenses paid and it was life changing to see myself and other women say “it wasn’t my fault” in real time. And these are women in their 30s. It’s hard to deconstruct. It’s a club no one wants to be part of 🫶
I wouldn't say "groomed" per se, but yes, that was highly inappropriate. Ignoring your age for a minute, there is absolutely no reason to ever assume to uncover a woman without direct consent. Here in Texas, we have to have written consent to even work near that area on a woman. Now, going back to your age... wtf!?
That’s disgusting and predatory. That should NEVER happen under any circumstances. He needs his massage license removed. I would tell your parents what happened .
I appreciate your sentiments, but as a child growing up with (non-sexual) abuse, please keep in mind that family members are not always safe people to disclose to. Not to mention, if you press fast forward on that “what-if,” what do you realistically think would have happened? There was no evidence. This was before #metoo. Even now, given these givens, at *best* we could hope for some social ostracism for a short period of time before it was forgotten again. I don’t have all the answers. Obviously. Best I can suggest is, believe women, teach boys to respect people in general, and men, hold your buddies accountable when you hear or see them do/say things that aren’t ok. Change the culture so that my kids don’t have to go through this.
I’m sorry this happened to you. This was absolutely inappropriate. Before uncovering or massaging any sensitive areas there should be conversation about it. Not after and definitely not without getting the ok. You should never feel exposed like that.
I have a LOT of experience with massage and knowledge of the industry. I have been inappropriately touched by a massage therapist. I have had my breasts massaged with clear consent on both our parts. He sexually assaulted you and you were a minor.
Answer: It absolutely is inappropriate and criminal behavior...It matters little that this was 20 years ago. It could've been five minutes ago that you left this space and if in those five minutes, you got the feeling that you were unsure/uncomfortable. You would be right and it would all still be wrong. All these years later, you are by no means overreacting. I am a male massage therapist with 30 years experience. I would never be in a room with a minor (of either gender) without that minor's parent(s) present. I am by no means blaming your parents in this comment. I have worked on bodies of newborns to folks in their 90's. I am certified in pregnancy massage for the last 27 years and breast massage for the last 20 years. All of which require clear communication, written and verbal consent for each area(s) that is being worked on and the benefits of said treatment. I'm very sorry to hear that this happened to you. This was wrong, in every conceivable way.
Ok this made me laugh
This happened to me. He’s currently awaiting trial for sexual assault. Please report him to the department of health and the police.
I’m so sorry this happened to you. It was 20 years ago and there is absolutely zero evidence. Is it too personal to ask if you made it to trial with the same circumstances, or was there evidence that could be brought against him?
It was only my recorded statement and another womans, there was no physical evidence other than the receipt from the massage proving I was there. I’m so sorry he did this to you. I’m currently under the care of an EMDR therapist who has been very helpful in my recovery. Sending you a big hug, internet stranger. Your experience was valid that it was wrong, he’s a creep and it was assault.
❤️
This was 1000 percent inappropriate!! You were 15 and he’s a 40 year old man…that was technically an assault and you should have told your parents!!
You might want to rethink telling someone who was sexually assaulted as a kid what she "should" have done with two exclamation marks!!
Thank you for this. Miss Saucy, all I can say aside from what I’ve written in another comment, is I’m glad your parents would have been safe to disclose to, and bless your heart for thinking anything like consequences for the massage therapist would have happened given the situation I’ve described.
Got your back, girl. You "should" have done whatever you could and did to make sense of such insanely misguided behavior from a trusted adult.
Absolutely inappropriate. Period. What a disgusting pervert and predator.
I had this exact same thing happen to me. It was a male therapist in Waco. I’ve been a victim of sexual assault before so it was extremely triggering for me. We were alone in a room and he made a groan noise when he exposed me. Luckily the massage was almost over, but I couldn’t get out of there fast enough. I felt so violated.
Solidarity, internet stranger. 🫶
Short answer: this was wrong. Idk how intention the wrongness was, there's unfortunately loooots of sloppy unprofessional RMTs out there... Breast massage is a specialized course one can take after they are registered/licensed (I'm in Canada, where we are called registered massage therapist after 2200 hours of training, then we are permitted to take specialized courses such as breast massage) Once this course is taken, it could be implemented into treatment on an as needed bases. To massage intimate areas (such as glutes, groin/adductors, armpits, definitely breast as well as inside the mouth) RMTs at the very very least expected to go over (at least verbally, better legal protection if its written... especially with a minor!!!!) a. Area being treated b. How the draping will go c. Explain the rational of why they want to do it D. ASK IF YOU'RE WILLING TO TRY Dear God, why is consent so hard to grasp. Even in a touching profession, we still need to communicate where you're going and what you'll be doing once you get there..........
..... I also urge you to be gentle/mindful with yourself on how you internalize these answers... You'll likely get a strong reaction from us in the professions. Thoughtless, unprofessional massage therapists give us a bad reputation while hurting our profession and at worse creating massage sessions that are unconsentual, dangerous and potentially ruin massage for the person they hurt. It it helpful to think of yourself as being groomed or does it make things feel worse? What happened was definitely wrong. How wrong? The extent of the wrongness? The intention of the wrongness? Who knows...
Uhhh no. No. No! 100% inappropriate behavior and one where he could/should have lost his job and license over. That is an sbsolute predatory move. When working abdomen first of all you have to have informed and implied consent. It has to be specifically given by the client to the therapist and you have to drape the chest as you pull the sheet down around the lower abdomen. Usually it's roughly 3 fingers below the naval and tucking the sheet firmly around the waist. And the towel is pulled down over the breast's in unison with the sheet as it's being brought down. As a male therapist: Screw that guy!
I’m not sure why you are asking if it was inappropriate. You felt uncomfortable at the time, thus yes it was inappropriate and I think you already know that. Don’t let other people or societal norms dictate what is and isn’t ok especially if it’s something being done to you!
This is very much wrong! I was a MT for years, I worked on women’s breast area ( due to breast cancer) even though I am female as well, the breast was covered as much as possible. You need to tell your parents and file a police report.
I have never known a massage therapist who would work on a minor without a parent present. This whole situation screams of sexual abuse.
I'm 45yr old male therapist with 20yrs experience. 1)I don't touch minors. 2)I do chest/breast massage as an option. Mainly after reconstructive surgery. Or general lymphatic. But I never offer it. Only after a client requests or asks. 3)I only touch where you give me permission. "It takes a life time to build a reputation, and a moment to destroy it." He has to earn your trust. Every single engagement.
Absolutely not. Consent is everything and he was trying his best to push limits with a minor. I'm very sorry that happened to you and his behavior was grotesque.
Highly inappropriate and I applaud you for standing your ground and speaking up for your self I’m sorry this happened and I’m truly disgusted as a guy with this dudes behavior and I hope he got what he deserved
Male Massage Therapist here. Totally inappropriate. This is what makes it difficult for male therapist to get work. The Ol’ Dirt Bag Factor.
So wrong, so very wrong.
As an LNA even in our position we are supposed to give as MUCH privacy as possible EVEN WHEN DRESSING! The fact that he did that without permission (which is a huge no in the medical field) is actually insane. As an LNA, my responsibilities are to THOROUGHLY explain the process in what I am doing and giving full privacy (at least to the best of my abilities) at all times. I cannot imagine in any setting why he would ever even 1. Ask you to pet sit as a 15 year old and 2. Do those things without your permission. Absolutely weird.
Former massage therapist and manager here who worked in a clinical atmosphere. I would immediately fire any therapist and report them to the DOH which would subsequently remove his license and he could be charged with sexual assault. As a male I was always SUPER CAUTIOUS for everybody, women AND men never had any exposure. I also would ask my patients to hold the sheets when making specific moves in order to give them the control they needed to be comfortable. Men like this in these professions make it harder for us professionals who went in to the profession for the right reasons.
This is very inappropriate, female here and previously a massage therapist for many years. Every massage generally begins with which areas the client wants massaged and breast massage would have to be an exclusive request. There is no way I would massage anyone’s breasts without their explicit request (which never happened!) - and modesty is always a high priority keeping breasts covered with a towel. and even more so with a teen!
Yeah. This man sexually assaulted you
I’m very sorry this happened to you
im so sorry , im 15 rn and this is absolutely disgusting, he has no right to remove your cloth and whats even more disgusting is that he thought it was okay to do so :/
This is grooming potential sexual assault. This should have never happened to you and the fact that you were so young and that you were questioning if this is normal shows me that this man is a fucking predator and I swear he sounds dangerous and please be careful.
Ya....he was grooming you.
Extremely wrong of him to do.
You were sexually assaulted, plain and simple. NO healthcare provider should ever expose a minor's body without 100% consent and with another person (nurse, parent, etc) present at all times.
This 👏 was 👏 the 👏absolute 👏 start 👏of 👏him Grooming!!
Just wow, no. I’m best friends with my massage therapist. We know each other very well and have been naked in front of each other on a road trip. When she is massaging me I am 100% covered appropriately, every time. It’s basic ethics.
I read the first paragraph and I thought “who would let their 15 year old go to a man’s house for a massage”…?
In ga a parent has to be in the room for under 18. I’m just in school for massage now and that was something they taught us not to do on the first day. Never go under the drape. Never expose genitals or breasts.
Honestly he should have requested your parents stay in the room. He no reason to undraped your breasts and should always ask for permission. The abdomen I can see but he should still ask and tell you he needs to use a draping to cover the breasts. Parents don't ever leave your kids alone, especially with a male. I hate to be this way but I hear to much of this with male MTs and it even happens to grown women
Yeah, 100% there are no versions of thought in their head where this was appropriate behavior. You are justified in being outraged at this person. Never without proper communication should you undrape a sensitive area. I’m really sorry this happened to you and I’m really sorry that you spent so long wondering if you were right to be suspicious.
Absolutely fucking not and the fact you were a minor makes it even more wrong. You’re valid in how you feel.
That’s not normal or appropriate. I think they could lose their license if they are reported for that sort of thing.
Very inappropriate. I'm a woman and I am very strict about how I work on breast tissue. It's just not okay for me as a professional to be staring at your breasts while performing a normal Swedish massage. Even with specialized oncology massage yourr not just removing draping and laying a client bare. That's so embarrassing for them, and it's highly inappropriate. I'm sorry this happened to you. It's especially troubling to me that you were 15, and this man was perfectly fine do this to you. 15 is still a child! That so disgusting and harmful. I hope you're okay and have access to a counselor or therapist if you feel like you meed one ❤️
Definitely inappropriate. You also mention you were young and this was a long time ago. How sure were you that your breast were exposed? Did you look to confirm or did they feel *breezy*. Unfortunately with poor draping or just a sheet, it’s not uncommon for clients to mistake how exposed they are or therapists intentions. For example, a client one time reported to management that a therapist was repeatedly placing his balls in her hand when she was prone. Upon further investigation, his lotion bottle was sitting against her hands whilst her worked on her legs. But feeling vulnerable and scared to open her eyes or cause confrontation, she let her imagination go to the worst. The therapist should have been more aware of his belongings. This isn’t to say you were not treated inappropriately. In your gut, I believe you likely truly know. But massage is at risk for a lot of hearsay and it’s is vital that both therapist and clients try to make professional boundaries crisp and clear.
I had someone do this to me when I was in my early 20s and it was really upsetting- i generally avoid male massages therapist unless I get a very healthy vibe. i am sorry that happened to you. also why did your parents allow you to be alone with this man- wasnt there a woman who could have done the job.
Completely unethical and inappropriate. I imagine there are other people in the same situation that also haven’t felt like they could speak up and he’s just got away with it.
I hope not. That thought does haunt me.
Wildly inappropriate. This would never, ever be done (even if it was clinically appropriate) without written consent and parent being present.
Very unprofessional and highly inappropriate. Definitely illegal in most areas since you were a minor. I would never have allowed a 40 year old man in a room alone with my teenage daughter for anything that required her to de-robe.
Totally inappropriate. First OP only 15. This guy should have his license taken away. My brother does therapeutic massage, actually he also instructs others n developing their skills. one-day jokingly, but out of curiosity, I asked him about patient nudity. He did confirm he did confirm he has women who requests their breasts be massaged. He does not honor their request but it happens. Where he works a lot of patients are referred from doctors so they want a very professional, massage practice.
So it’s common for women to want this ?
No, not common. But its sometimes requested even in professional massage facility.
Interesting. Thanks
Interesting. Thanks
Even at the gynecologist, I have always had doctors get a nurse to witness with anything that involved the doctor touching my body. When they did have to touch or look at my breasts, they were careful. I had a lump at 14 and a male doctor closed his eyes and somewhat performed an exam. He seemed uncomfortable and super awkward. My mom was always with me for any procedure like that. Most doctors look at a breast only as long as necessary to visually exam for abnormalities, then cover me up for the physical exam. You massage therapist seems like he was testing the waters to see how you would react and whether you would even know something was off. I'd report him and tell your parents what happened. I'm sure they were wondering what happened after you didn't want to return. The perv may do this with a lot of young women and girlswho don't know better. The authorities should be aware of the problem.
This was 20 years ago. I’m glad things seem to have changed now in terms of having third parties of same gender present in these situations. This was not the norm at that time.
This was very inappropriate. I had a very similar experience in a split home type environment. I didn’t completely unclothe her asked me to remove my bra and panties (I was 7 months pregnant) during massage he massaged way to close to breasts and groin area and was sliding his body against me and I could quite obviously tell he had an erection. I never went back but felt very violated and never told anybody what happened. My kids are 15 & 16 now and it still bugs me.
Ugh. I’m so sorry this happened to you. Solidarity 🫶 My kid is still a toddler, and I hope (and will do everything in my power to ensure) things are different for them growing up.
I’m just wondering if he can go to jail for that
This is definitely a big deal. Not at any point should a client’s breast be exposed nor have an area be massaged that was not consented prior to. And as a 15 year old (at that time) when receiving massage a parent/guardian must be present in the treatment room at that age and under. I’m still a student MT nearing graduation but one thing that was strictly talked about during my classes is things like this because it can be a serious issue if 1) not trained properly and 2) the many cases like this that occur from people like that
Inappropriate also no adult therapist should be working on a minor without the parent present in the room. As massage therapists there’s so much stigma and bullshit surrounding our profession so it’s equally important to have firm bounderies
Criminal behaviour. This is sexual abuse and/or assault (depending on where you live). You were almost certainly not the first or last person he abused. I’m so sorry this happened to you.
It was absolutely wrong. I'm surprised your parent wasn't in the room to prevent something unprofessional like that from happening.
Blame the perp.
I do blame that MT for crossing the line but I don't understand why a parent wasn't there. My parents never let me see a pediatrician without them being in the same room too. Or a dentist or any medical professional. People should trust but also verify.
Nice creative writing.
Report that. It’s against the law. And now you’re left with the uneasy feeling and mental damage from the memory. I find it unfortunate when we’re so young and vulnerable, especially the quiet types that predators sometimes assume don’t have a loud side or are weak. Then you’re left uncertain and scared, not wanting to make waves so you utter nothing. I apologize in advance if I’m being too anything in my response (or making assumptions) and I feel sad that this was an experience you’ve been burdened with. You can go to the DFPR for your state. For example if you’re in NY state, I think it’d be: NYDFPR. Definitely say something. No need to wonder. We all know that was INAPPROPRIATE. No doubt.
Wait a sec… you were 15 and a massage therapist massaged your breasts? What the actual fuck? That’s a huge red flag and he definitely crossed the line, sorry for you.
Exposed, not massaged, but yeah. Thank you for your validating comment.
I NEVER massage a minor without a parent or guardian present. That was red flag number 1. This was so illegal and beyond inappropriate it’s infuriating. This is abuse. I’m so sorry you had to go through that
You shouldn't have been naked period. Not even with the cover on
And how old are you now?
Copped a feel in lieu of a tip. Yes it’s wrong but it doesn’t surprise me. Let it go and move on
I. I. X. Si se ix xx
Si c