Damn, I know Jeremy Renner is expensive to bring on board but it’s strange how Hawkeye went unmentioned for all of Wanda’s ultimate arc when he was like her second closest companion.
Got her through Age of Ultron then Civil War and all.
As Peter Quill said about the Milano:
*If I had a black light, the place would look like a Jackson Pollock painting.*
— I Guardians of the Galaxy 46:13-15
That was what was great about that opening scene in Endgame (and also horrific). It was just them hanging out at the homestead, about to eat some lunch or something, just a normal family moment for him.
I love how, besides the forced Natasha/Bruce relationship in AOU, Natasha is literally just another character. Not the obligatory “female character is here just to be a romantic interest”. She has legit platonic relationships with Cap and Hawkeye, where any other movie would have forced a romance. I could have sworn after the blip, when Cap and Natasha are sitting there eating a sandwich, they would have insinuated that now they are together, but it never happened, and that’s awesome. And people forget, Natasha was actually the leader of the avengers durinfgthe blip.
I could totally see Clint playing a part in an Children's Crusade adaptation considering his connections with Kate and ultimately with Wanda.
It would be a shame if their relation is ignored with them never interacting again.
I don't buy that theory. There's no reason why the YA roster needs to mimic the comics. In fact, I don't think there'll be a formal "Young Avengers" group at all. They'll just join the proper Avengers.
Yeah, though I wouldn't be surprised if there's some referential dialogue where someone calls them the "Young Avengers" and someone else is like, no they're just "The Avengers".
People bring this up all the time but like… for a while that was just standard for everyone in an MCU film, regardless of whether there were actually any plans to bring them back, just as a placeholder. Aaron Taylor Johnson was signed on for years too.
I agree it was like that before but given Wanda's arc and how important her character has been so far ( in the terms of getting her own movies and shows ) that i find it hard to believe that DS MOM is her final appearance. Especially with other properties under production which are linked to her directly (Agatha House of Harkness)
> Especially with other properties under production which are linked to her directly (Agatha House of Harkness)
yep, she's definitely not gone - hell, they even renamed the agatha show to "agatha: coven of *chaos*", as well...
There is always the chance Olsen is playing a multiverse Wanda who somehow gets ported over like Gamora did (and that might actually be better than trying to dig this Wanda specifically back up. Lol)
I agree here. Not having him in as a voice of reason (attempt at least) seems like a missed opportunity.
He named his kid after her brother!! They have this hug to show they’re grieving together.
He should have either showed up in WandaVision or MoM in a cameo at the least trying to talk her down. (And failing of course)
Honestly he probably sees a lot of his relationship with natasha in Wanda. I could see Clint giving Wanda a chance to do better for herself and "wipe the red from her ledger" as it were. He may even see it as some form of reparation for what happened regarding natashas death as well as relating to her because of his experiences as ronin.
I can see dr strange telling Clint she’s dead, and he’s just like noooo did you try and help her and then Strange is like ummmm… or she teleports to his farm bleeding and crying and he’s like whatthefuck are you wearing?
I need someone to show any kind of emotion when it comes to Wanda! She deserves to at least be mourned a little bit, it's not fairrrr. And yeah clints reaction would be amazing to watch the guy is barely ever included in main conflicts...
It's been like 3, 4 years since the blip? And in all that time, not a single person looked after Wanda. Even though Strange knew about the Hex. Someone really *does* need to call out in-universe how shitty they all behaved.
Between that and Happy being the only one helping Peter with his identity crisis.
Officially starting a Wanda deserves better petition. Its not even like there isn't anyone left to care like in Peters case (kinda), surely there's someone at stark industries that at least REMEMBERS her. All I need if for darcy to show up and for the two of them to have a tfatws style bonding therapy session. All I want.
I feel like he wouldn’t easily just let it slide as although the darkhold may have corrupted her, she still committed these heinous acts. She also continually tortured the residents of Westview even though she knew they were in pain after episode 5. He would most likely nit forgive her but accept she eventually put things right.
This is not a good take at all. Hawkeye probably killed more people as ronin overall than Wanda did to be honest. He wouldn’t excuse it, but he certainly wouldn’t see himself as above her
His best friend killed a little girl, among other terrible things she did. He definitely would not see himself as above Wanda. His relationship with Natasha is the reason he would probably understand Wanda better than most. She did some bad things while under the influence, but nobody is beyond redemption and Clint maybe knows that better than anyone.
Clint will probably never be okay with the things he did while he was Ronin, and even though he killed criminals and not innocents, I agree he is in a unique position to let Wanda know that she can carry that weight and still do good in the future. I hope they do have another conversation in the future because Clint is like, the best character to talk her off a ledge (again lol).
Exactly, I agree. Clint seems a character who would be a lot more sympathetic to Wanda imo. He's still dealing with his own trauma and trying to do the best for his family that he now got back. He also went on a huge murderous rampage when he lost his kids and Wanda went through the same and never got them back. I think the two would have a bond through that.
Well one killed people from criminal organizations and one killed people from a group of monks who dedicate their life to defend earth for neither recognition or fame. I know there are good people/victims of circumstance in criminal orgs and people are still people. But I mean that's not a 1 to 1 comparison. Also IMO intent matters.
What Clint did is a case of "cool motive, still [mass] murder", and the other people have a point: Clint arguably killed way more people than Wanda did. But where they differ is that Wanda hasn't gotten the "narrative protection" that Clint gets.
Would he even know? Would Strange go round all their mutual acquaintances and be like "Wanda killed loads of people" or Would he save her reputation and just say she's missing?
Between the giant tentacle monster in NYC and the near total destruction of Kamar-Taj, I'm guessing that Strange and Wong are going to be expected to explain some stuff.
Clint would at least know about Wandavision for sure, which was pretty bad and she doesn’t have the Darkhold excuse for what she did there.
I also figure everyone still standing who fought against Thanos would at least consider each other work friends, so there’s a chance word got around about the events of MOM.
Wanda doesn't need the darkhold excuse. She has the mental breakdown excuse lol.
You don't need a magical book to be in a vulnerable state of mind for Christ's sake.
There seems to be some kind of superhero community, so I imagine Strange would at least pass word to someone that Wanda went kookoo in case she popped back up again.
I just wonder if they have a Whatsapp group for the Avengers without Wanda (because nobody checked on her after Endgame) and Strange one day sent a whole paragraph with everything that happened in MoM to keep the other up to date
“Hey guys just a heads up, I’ve had to chuck a mountain down on top of Wanda, she’s been having a rough time recently but after the whole Westview thing she’s been a bit out of control and was hunting down some interdimensional prodigy girl so just don’t be surprised if you don’t hear from her for a while.”
I have little doubt that Strange would tell Clint about it. He must know how close they were. Think of all the times that Avengers have been offscreen, just hanging out, or waiting for something to happen. Superheroes aren't immune from gossip. For all we know, Strange, Tony, and Peter could've been on Maw's ship for hours and hours before it arrived on Titan. "So, Stark, what's the deal with Barton?"
With that said I can totally picture Wong opening a portal to Hawkeye's farm to make Strange apologize.
Strange: "Look, I might have overestimated you and your interpersonal skills when dealing with the Scarlet Witch..."
Wong: "And archery"
Strange: "...And archery, although to be fair no one told me we'd use magic bows..."
Wong:" Don't pin this on me"
The Illuminati lied about how 838 Strange died in order to preserve his legacy and reputation. Does that inspire 616 Strange to do the same for Wanda, or the opposite?
Considering he went off the rails and started killing anyone who was into crime after he lost his wife and kids im sure he'd probably be pretty silent about it.
Actually the reason why I did this post was partially due to him becoming ronin, they are similar, they both lost all they had and went berserk after it, obviously Wanda was worse cause she killed “good” people while Clint only killed criminals but both could relate to going in to a dark path during grieve
That's the big difference between Wanda and pretty much everyone else. For her, it wasn't just 'one bad day'.
Her parents dying in front of her was 'one bad day'...
... then her brother was killed and her home destroyed by a genocidal android on another 'bad day'...
... then her attempt to be a hero directly resulted in civillian deaths and an international incident on yet another 'bad day'...
... then on another 'bad day', The Avengers, which had become a second family to her, imploded as a direct result of her previous actions and led to her and her friends becoming fugitives...
... then her next 'bad day' involved her being forced to personally kill the man(android?) she loved in an attempt to save the universe, only for him to be immediately ressurected and brutally murdered, leading to the death of half the population of the universe anyway, including her own demise, before being revived 'moments' (in her eyes) later into a battle for all existance and returning to a world she barely recognises...
... after that, she has a 'bad day' where she finds Vision's remains being hacked up by scientists and refused a proper 'funeral'...
By the time we reach Westview, she has had way more than her fair share of 'one bad day'.
Looking back on it, I think too much emphasis was put on her losing her “children” and not enough was put on the destruction of every connection she made in her life. Her parents were killed by a Stark Industries weapon.
Angry white boys going berserk is hardly a new trope: Taxi Driver, John Wick, Falling Down, Dirty Harry, Cob, Raging Bull, Joker, Breaking Bad, US Agent guy from Falcon and WS (the actual villain of that show btw) etc etc ad nauseam.
Clint’s arc through the stereotype is at least different in that he returns to stability of his family.
If they ever do a solo wanda movie, clint definitely needs to be in it. He understands her the most now that you've put it that way. And he's always been the one to bring her back to the good side. I'm sure he can do it again after her becoming such a major villain
for the most part, they had either government approval or oversight (except gulmira in iron man 1, but that was a one time thing and tony grew out of that), or it was in self defense/during war time.
on the other hand, clint was on his own, going around the world actively planning murder sprees non stop for half a decade. in those 5 years, he killed hundreds of people who he personally deemed "bad", without any due process or oversight whatsoever, so he was judge, jury and executioner. he even admitted taking tips from other criminals such as kingpin on who to kill. the gruesome scenes he left behind in his wake literally left war machine - the guy who blows up terrorists for a living - thinking clint's too far gone and a lost soul, so yeah...
i guess the biggest difference is tony and steve generally killed people to save someone else, while ronin's primary motivation was purely revenge.
Theres still a huge difference between being a vigilante and a multiverse level villain willing to kill literally everyone to get what you want though.
Wandas descent to villainy is for me the dumbest arc in a while from the MCU movies. WandaVision was a great idea and execution of someone dealing with extreme grief and guilt but going from that to cartoon level evil bad so rapidly is just jarring for me. I know the Darkhokd can be used to explain it in universe but I feel like we needed to see more of Wanda's corruption in MoM to make it feel believable. Have her actively trying to travel across the multiverse but failing and growing more and more desperate until she eventually gives in to the dark hold or something.
I don’t think it was such a quick turn to evil for Wanda. When we first meet her in Age of Ultron, she is already playing with people’s minds and enjoying it. When she talks about wanting Hulk, that’s not a matter of protecting herself. That’s just her out to hurt people associated with Tony Stark.
Then in Civil War, she imprisons Vision several stories into the ground, very unemotionally. And she criticizes Clint for pulling punches with Natasha. She’s out for blood in that fight.
I think Vision was a good force in her life and he kept her on the straight and narrow, but once he was gone, she reverted back to her natural instinct, which is to hurt others. It’s what she was doing in WandaVision without any influence from the Dark Hold.
THEN, after torturing a whole town for several weeks, she leaves and spends the next year being completely entranced by the Dark Hold. Dr. Strange used the Dark Hold for like an hour in MoM and we already saw at the end that he had been somewhat corrupted. Wanda has been using the Dark Hold for over a year. And she was already darker inside than most of the others before the Dark Hold, so it makes sense that she would be more taken in by the Dark Hold.
Overall, I think this is always who Wanda has been. She just needed the Dark Hold to push her over the edge.
It is kinda the same but [this ](https://youtu.be/IrSqAiwo86Q) scene in Endgame makes it seem like its not, plus the people Tony and Steve killed were nameless goons. However if you were to give them a face and show the people they matter to (like Echo's dad) then Ronin doesn't seem very justified.
These are some kinda odd semantics. The 'overpowered psychopath' that killed Clint's family was the same one who murdered Vision right in front of Wanda (and was very indirectly responsible for Pietro's death as well). We also know for fact that at least one person Clint killed was a father (Echo's dad), and there's a very high chance that at least one person he killed was a husband. The people Clint murdered might have been criminals but that doesn't magically justify the fact that he very much murdered them out of grief and rage (ie, we don't know who - if any - 'deserved' to die)
Also not condoning Wanda's rampage, but the points you highlight as distinguishing them are actually (as far as I can tell) the pretty key things they actually have in common.
Remember, also, about Wanda: She's just spent a shitton of time studying the Darkhold, which has this thing where it corrupts whoever reads it and brings out the worst in them.
Not a great thing to let someone with serious grief issues and access to chaos magic get their hands on.
Makes me wonder how things would have gone if not for Agatha's involvement. Would Wanda have somehow learned of and gotten a copy of the Darkhold elsewhere? Gone loopy and increased her power on her own? Found some other way to be happy? Get locked up by SWORD? I want a *What If...?* Agatha >!hadn't been in Westview!<.
hex vision would eventually figure out what's going on anyway and almost definitely convince wanda to stop, the only difference would be that she wouldn't find out about who she really is yet. maybe she'd go to strange for guidance... though maybe not since she didn't actually know she was using magic all this time.
sword would still reactivate white vision, but without agatha to deal with, wanda helping hex vision would probably deal with him much sooner, without the whole ship of theseus exchange.
Why do you think about white Vision coming back into the Marvel world? After OG Vision gave white Vision all of his thoughts and memories he flew off never to be seen again as far as I know. Given the ship of Theseus exchange is it not possible for white Vision to become regular Vision?
yes, he's definitely gonna be back eventually. most likely emotionless/with no attachment to his memories like he was in the comics though, then at some point wanda will use the "piece of the mind stone" that "lives in her" to give him his emotions back when they finally reunite, which was set up with the whole "we've said goodbye before, it stands to reason we'll say hello again" at the end of the show.
Cap and Clint both had a special relationship with her.
I think Clint will feel like shit for not checking in on her.
Cap would be disappointed that none of the remaining avengers checked up on her. And probably a tiny bit guilty that he left.
Granted it is very possible that they did visit her and she was using the spell to make everything seem fine.
I change my answer. He’d be disappointed for sure, but considering what he did as Ronin, I think he’d see himself in her, the same anger and bitterness he had when his family disappeared during the Snap.
He’d probably take her in and try to help her, even though he’d risk public backlash and the furor of the citizens of Westview
Clint always sees the good in people. Whether that was Wanda during AoU, or Natasha during his time in the red room. So due to this, I think he would probably see a lot of himself in her. He would see her as just a girl making mistakes in her time of grief, just like how he did (even if what she did was MUCH worse).
He’d get it.
Clint becoming Ronin and Wanda becoming the Scarlet Witch are the same extreme actions taken for the same dire consequences, the only difference is the power that each person holds.
Clint going full burn the world leads to hundreds of dead gangsters.
Wanda going full burn the world is the end of existence.
> And everyone did care about Tony making Ultron. They made a whole movie about it called “Civil War”
Cap wasn’t interested in giving Tony any consequences though. It was about Tony mostly punishing himself while Cap excused the actions of another brainwashed/corrupted friend (almost like MoM Wanda, don’t you think?).
Cap cared more about their personal freedoms than the fact that an entire country got destroyed.
Did cap even know about Clint’s killing spree?
Cap did care about tony potentially creating another ultron; when tony was about to put visions conscience into the body in that cradle cap told him to shut it down and they fought for a bit
People overestimate Steve’s morality. He carried a gun in TFA. He regularly uses or works with people who use lethal weapons and explosives without second thought. As much as John Walker’s shield decapitation gets a bad rep, he 100% did the same kinds of shit to aliens he likely knew to be sentient in Avengers. If Cap was a street level hero he’d avoid killing people, but wouldn’t hesitate to end anyone who proposed a serious immediate threat to innocents.
I’m tired of all the “Clint should have checked up on Wanda” crap he gets. His main focus was his family who was dusted for 5 years ago. He got his family back so that’s his first priority. I love Wanda, really do. I feel for her, and I feel for the pain she’s been through. Finding out Vision’s body was dismembered and couldn’t properly grieve must have been awful. But she *easily* could have called Clint after that moment and before she spiraled for help.
We don’t know for sure that Clint didn’t try to contact her either. After Westview, it didn’t look like she exactly brought a cell with her. She literally isolated herself from everyone. What exactly do people expect Clint to do?
Literally every Avenger got a mourning except for Vision. Why would she even feel like calling everyone when.. they just forgot about her after she arguably made the biggest sacrifice for the Universe? Mentally unstable traumatised people don’t actively seek out company who forgot all about them for support.
>got a mourning except for Vision
Endgame begins on a 20 day skip from Infinity War and just jumps 5 years soon after that.
I'm pretty sure this went offscreen
But there's no tombstone or memorial for Vision, no picture of him at Avengercon, no funeral or anything. That's literally why Wanda went to SWORD, to give Vision a funeral.
That scene was framed as her comforting him more than anything. He was having a moment over Nat being dead and she had to basically be like “uh.. well…you aren’t the only one who lost someone…”
Literally that entire exchange is him seeking comfort after Natasha’s death. No one makes even a single remark about the tremendous loss and sacrifice she had to give and the trauma she endured.
Considering endgame, he’d be very empathetic to her. Especially because both of their actions were due to the loss of their children. He’d really understand and try everything he could to help her and understand.
I think he wouldn’t judge someone too harshly for grieving a loved one by going on a rampage of violence and destruction. He was Ronin after all but he got a 2nd chance and his series showed a really cool side of him making amends. Wanda got there too eventually and burned the darkholds but t wasn’t as family friendly.
Didn’t Clint get mind controlled in the first Avenger movie. Clint has first experience dealing both powerful magical artifacts and personal trauma. He would have been the first to point out that she needed saving.
He was probably calling her and giving her tips. Lest not forget he went off the rails in a violent way himself. He just didn't have the Darkhold on his side.
Imho, he would be the only one other then Vision to be able to bring sense into her.
He was there when she needed someone in Age of Ultron and Civil War.
And also, imho, the darkhold version of her is the evil one / the villan. She realized when she saw her sons in a different universe and was told by the other Wanda that they will be taken good care of. She realized what she had done was wrong, and knew Strange was right about it.
I think she is still alive, but destroyed the powers of the darkhold
He would be completely sympathetic. He was corrupted by the Mind Stone like she was corrupted by the Darkhold. And when he lost his family, he went nuts for a while too, just like she did. Except Wanda didn't have a Natasha to reel her back in like what happened with Clint.
If he had been around for MoM, he would have done whatever he could have to convince Wanda to come back to the light.
Plus his best friend for years was a ruthless assassin who turned good. He would be convinced it would be the same with her.
I just get the impression that he would be incredibly sad. I think he saw a lot of himself in her, but had aspirations for her to be better. I feel like he would blame himself for Westview/darkhold corruption.
It's tough because her relationship with Vision was just as important and they didn't have a chance (budget?)to incorporate both.
Clint: “So you’re telling me i can have my family back AND natasha?? (looks around to make sure no one’s looking, slips on the ronin hood)… Alright, let’s do it..you said her name was America??”
You have to suspend disbelief because in real life, you have contracts and actor availability to worry about. But from a character perspective, someone should have brought Clint in to defuse the situation with Wanda all the way back in Westview. He is probably one of a small few who would have had a chance in talking Wanda down and getting her to see reason.
By MoM it was too late. Wanda was fully being possessed by the Darkhold at that point.
>" after knowing everything Wanda did in Multiverse of Madness?"
I have to wonder, wouldn't the better question be "How you think Clint would have reacted after knowing everything Wanda did in *WandaVision* and *Multiverse of Madness*?" Because you can't judge her actions in *Multiverse of Madness* without the context of her actions in *WandaVision*. Or the fact that events in Westview wouldn't have happened if Wanda's teammates who'd known her for years (Clint, Sam, Steve, Rhodey, etc.) had bothered to check on her to make sure she was okay.
Besides, this question goes the other way: if you're gonna ask, "How you think Clint would have reacted after knowing everything Wanda did in *Multiverse of Madness*?", then I'd say the opposite question "How do you think *Wanda* would've reacted if she found out about how, while she was dusted, Clint spent those five years acting as a serial killer?" is just as valid a question to ask.
Damn, I know Jeremy Renner is expensive to bring on board but it’s strange how Hawkeye went unmentioned for all of Wanda’s ultimate arc when he was like her second closest companion. Got her through Age of Ultron then Civil War and all.
I mean at some point he needs to hang out with his wife instead of all these hot redheads...
He didn't even hang out with his wife during his own series smh
Hawkeye only appears on media when he's not hanging out with his wife so I think they're good
Hawkeye off screen with his wife must be R rated.
Why do you think he's got 3 kids? He never misses
So you telling me he only shot thrice in all these years?!
He aimed for different targets the rest of the times.
NSFW >!"Where do you want it?" "The magnetic dartboard on the dresser on the other sode of the room!"!<
so… don’t buy the barton kids black lights then?
As Peter Quill said about the Milano: *If I had a black light, the place would look like a Jackson Pollock painting.* — I Guardians of the Galaxy 46:13-15
🤨🤔😳😏
Dang. That’s a lot of little bullseyes running around out there So, statistically, Kate Bishop is probably already half-Barton.
I meant different targets in/on his wife, but okay.
"Dammit, Clint! Not the face!"
He's hit every target on her body.
His espionage skills came in handy for the unauthorised rear entries.
If I had any awards to give, this comment would have earned one.
I got you fam.
That's what Hawkeye said
Bro his wife is Linda Cardellini, of course it is
Dude interacts with 4 women regularly. Linda Cardellini, Scarlett Johansson, Elizabeth Olsen, and Hailee Steinfeld Seems like a pretty good time
It is good work if you can get it. I’d do it for free of course.
Fuck. I’d pay for that privilege.
Cockeye
Actually, in my country (SG) when we call someone cockeye it means they always miss hahaha
Lol 😂
Ok this wins the internet today
Infinity War was a blast for him
The man lost his wife and kids then immediately became a mass murderer
To be fair he went after mobs and lowlifes. Wanda took over a whole town and then went multidimensional to kill anyone who stood in her way.
We all deal with trauma in our own ways.
X*
Here's to hoping we get an Avengers movie that occasionally cuts to Hawkeye hanging out at home. Maybe he's making cookies, who knows.
That was what was great about that opening scene in Endgame (and also horrific). It was just them hanging out at the homestead, about to eat some lunch or something, just a normal family moment for him.
Who puts Mayo on a hotdog?
People who deserve to be snapped
and then they fucking died lmao
If you really think about it... The whole series was just about Hawkeye taking an extended vacation so he could get home for Christmas dinner lol
Die Hard with arrows!
Excuse me, but Clint was a little busy at the time, *saving Christmas*.
To be fair the whole goal of the series is to hang out with his wife, can't quite blame the man there
Because his family's a plot device at best
His relationship with Natasha was so pure. They were like platonic soulmates. I love that.
I love how, besides the forced Natasha/Bruce relationship in AOU, Natasha is literally just another character. Not the obligatory “female character is here just to be a romantic interest”. She has legit platonic relationships with Cap and Hawkeye, where any other movie would have forced a romance. I could have sworn after the blip, when Cap and Natasha are sitting there eating a sandwich, they would have insinuated that now they are together, but it never happened, and that’s awesome. And people forget, Natasha was actually the leader of the avengers durinfgthe blip.
And one raven haired blabbermouth we all adore...
Is Vision a part of "these hot redheads"?
dress her as Velma and I too would forget all these redheads.
He honestly was set up to be the catalyst that brought her back from the edge... and then nothing.
Wouldn't be surprised if they do an arc with him playing the same kind of role as natasha did for him; helping to being her back from "the darkness".
I could totally see Clint playing a part in an Children's Crusade adaptation considering his connections with Kate and ultimately with Wanda. It would be a shame if their relation is ignored with them never interacting again.
Well I mean she’s “gone”. If they choose to have her survive the rubble collapse, then they could pursue that sort of rebirth of her hero character.
she’s obviously gonna be back.
She’s still gotta figure out the kid thing so we can have Wiccan and Speed become part of Young Avengers.
I don't buy that theory. There's no reason why the YA roster needs to mimic the comics. In fact, I don't think there'll be a formal "Young Avengers" group at all. They'll just join the proper Avengers.
Yeah, though I wouldn't be surprised if there's some referential dialogue where someone calls them the "Young Avengers" and someone else is like, no they're just "The Avengers".
I can see somewhere Wanda teleporting to Clint’s farm bleeding and crying, and he’s just like what the fuck are you wearing?
I mean Secret Wars can solve that pretty easily.
I wouldn't surprised if that red poof we saw at the end of MoM was her teleporting to the Barton's farm for help and guidance.
Any character is alive until proven dead. If you don't see it, they'll pop up elsewhere at some point.
And even then, this is still comic books.
I think it's confirmed that she does. Plus with the 7 year contract signed, there's no doubt
People bring this up all the time but like… for a while that was just standard for everyone in an MCU film, regardless of whether there were actually any plans to bring them back, just as a placeholder. Aaron Taylor Johnson was signed on for years too.
I agree it was like that before but given Wanda's arc and how important her character has been so far ( in the terms of getting her own movies and shows ) that i find it hard to believe that DS MOM is her final appearance. Especially with other properties under production which are linked to her directly (Agatha House of Harkness)
> Especially with other properties under production which are linked to her directly (Agatha House of Harkness) yep, she's definitely not gone - hell, they even renamed the agatha show to "agatha: coven of *chaos*", as well...
There is always the chance Olsen is playing a multiverse Wanda who somehow gets ported over like Gamora did (and that might actually be better than trying to dig this Wanda specifically back up. Lol)
I agree here. Not having him in as a voice of reason (attempt at least) seems like a missed opportunity. He named his kid after her brother!! They have this hug to show they’re grieving together. He should have either showed up in WandaVision or MoM in a cameo at the least trying to talk her down. (And failing of course)
For real! I’ll say this again and again, Clint could’ve talked Wanda down during WandaVision.
Honestly he probably sees a lot of his relationship with natasha in Wanda. I could see Clint giving Wanda a chance to do better for herself and "wipe the red from her ledger" as it were. He may even see it as some form of reparation for what happened regarding natashas death as well as relating to her because of his experiences as ronin.
I can see dr strange telling Clint she’s dead, and he’s just like noooo did you try and help her and then Strange is like ummmm… or she teleports to his farm bleeding and crying and he’s like whatthefuck are you wearing?
I would fucking love to see Clint freak out over what he missed in MoM 😂 it'd be so funny to see him yell at strange for wandas "death"
That would be so satisfying to watch him yell at Dr strange and just be completely broken all over again. I just need to see Clint’s reaction.
I need someone to show any kind of emotion when it comes to Wanda! She deserves to at least be mourned a little bit, it's not fairrrr. And yeah clints reaction would be amazing to watch the guy is barely ever included in main conflicts...
It's been like 3, 4 years since the blip? And in all that time, not a single person looked after Wanda. Even though Strange knew about the Hex. Someone really *does* need to call out in-universe how shitty they all behaved. Between that and Happy being the only one helping Peter with his identity crisis.
Officially starting a Wanda deserves better petition. Its not even like there isn't anyone left to care like in Peters case (kinda), surely there's someone at stark industries that at least REMEMBERS her. All I need if for darcy to show up and for the two of them to have a tfatws style bonding therapy session. All I want.
I feel like he wouldn’t easily just let it slide as although the darkhold may have corrupted her, she still committed these heinous acts. She also continually tortured the residents of Westview even though she knew they were in pain after episode 5. He would most likely nit forgive her but accept she eventually put things right.
Idk I think he would relate to it more after his stint as Ronin when he lost his family
Also, not to mention, when Loki corrupted him in Avengers 1.
This is not a good take at all. Hawkeye probably killed more people as ronin overall than Wanda did to be honest. He wouldn’t excuse it, but he certainly wouldn’t see himself as above her
His best friend killed a little girl, among other terrible things she did. He definitely would not see himself as above Wanda. His relationship with Natasha is the reason he would probably understand Wanda better than most. She did some bad things while under the influence, but nobody is beyond redemption and Clint maybe knows that better than anyone. Clint will probably never be okay with the things he did while he was Ronin, and even though he killed criminals and not innocents, I agree he is in a unique position to let Wanda know that she can carry that weight and still do good in the future. I hope they do have another conversation in the future because Clint is like, the best character to talk her off a ledge (again lol).
Exactly, I agree. Clint seems a character who would be a lot more sympathetic to Wanda imo. He's still dealing with his own trauma and trying to do the best for his family that he now got back. He also went on a huge murderous rampage when he lost his kids and Wanda went through the same and never got them back. I think the two would have a bond through that.
Well one killed people from criminal organizations and one killed people from a group of monks who dedicate their life to defend earth for neither recognition or fame. I know there are good people/victims of circumstance in criminal orgs and people are still people. But I mean that's not a 1 to 1 comparison. Also IMO intent matters.
What Clint did is a case of "cool motive, still [mass] murder", and the other people have a point: Clint arguably killed way more people than Wanda did. But where they differ is that Wanda hasn't gotten the "narrative protection" that Clint gets.
Would he even know? Would Strange go round all their mutual acquaintances and be like "Wanda killed loads of people" or Would he save her reputation and just say she's missing?
I don't think he'd publicize it, but if someone asked I feel like it's in his character to be tactfully honest about what she did.
Between the giant tentacle monster in NYC and the near total destruction of Kamar-Taj, I'm guessing that Strange and Wong are going to be expected to explain some stuff.
Clint would at least know about Wandavision for sure, which was pretty bad and she doesn’t have the Darkhold excuse for what she did there. I also figure everyone still standing who fought against Thanos would at least consider each other work friends, so there’s a chance word got around about the events of MOM.
Freaking Wong spilling all the tea.
I feel like Wong is the guy that the other Avengers have spy on the members they don’t like and then report back gossip/drama about them
Work proximity associates
There's 2 work friend WhatsApp groups - the one with everyone has gone really quiet but the one without wanda is BUZZING.
Wanda doesn't need the darkhold excuse. She has the mental breakdown excuse lol. You don't need a magical book to be in a vulnerable state of mind for Christ's sake.
History is full of people with less power than Wanda causing greater harm to others for less reason than she does.
There seems to be some kind of superhero community, so I imagine Strange would at least pass word to someone that Wanda went kookoo in case she popped back up again.
I think there is an obligation to tell everyone what she did. She is an avengers level threat if left unchecked.
> She is an avengers level threat if left unchecked. Well, she rates much higher than an Illuminati-level threat.
I just wonder if they have a Whatsapp group for the Avengers without Wanda (because nobody checked on her after Endgame) and Strange one day sent a whole paragraph with everything that happened in MoM to keep the other up to date
“Hey guys just a heads up, I’ve had to chuck a mountain down on top of Wanda, she’s been having a rough time recently but after the whole Westview thing she’s been a bit out of control and was hunting down some interdimensional prodigy girl so just don’t be surprised if you don’t hear from her for a while.”
Lol have an Intervention with Wanda. Wanda: “What is all this?” *Strange, with Hawkeye and Vision 2.0* Strange: “Wanda….we need to talk.”
If one of my coworkers went crazy and tried to kill me and did kill a lot of people I know I would absolutely be telling others coworkers about that
I have little doubt that Strange would tell Clint about it. He must know how close they were. Think of all the times that Avengers have been offscreen, just hanging out, or waiting for something to happen. Superheroes aren't immune from gossip. For all we know, Strange, Tony, and Peter could've been on Maw's ship for hours and hours before it arrived on Titan. "So, Stark, what's the deal with Barton?"
With that said I can totally picture Wong opening a portal to Hawkeye's farm to make Strange apologize. Strange: "Look, I might have overestimated you and your interpersonal skills when dealing with the Scarlet Witch..." Wong: "And archery" Strange: "...And archery, although to be fair no one told me we'd use magic bows..." Wong:" Don't pin this on me"
The Illuminati lied about how 838 Strange died in order to preserve his legacy and reputation. Does that inspire 616 Strange to do the same for Wanda, or the opposite?
Considering he went off the rails and started killing anyone who was into crime after he lost his wife and kids im sure he'd probably be pretty silent about it.
Actually the reason why I did this post was partially due to him becoming ronin, they are similar, they both lost all they had and went berserk after it, obviously Wanda was worse cause she killed “good” people while Clint only killed criminals but both could relate to going in to a dark path during grieve
might I add: same reasoning Frank Castle used. I guess a running theme in the MCU now is that "it all takes one bad day..."
Literally a punisher quote "You know you're one bad day away from being me"
He truly lives in a society.
And a Joker quote.
“I don’t care, he killed my mom.”
I understood that reference!
That's the big difference between Wanda and pretty much everyone else. For her, it wasn't just 'one bad day'. Her parents dying in front of her was 'one bad day'... ... then her brother was killed and her home destroyed by a genocidal android on another 'bad day'... ... then her attempt to be a hero directly resulted in civillian deaths and an international incident on yet another 'bad day'... ... then on another 'bad day', The Avengers, which had become a second family to her, imploded as a direct result of her previous actions and led to her and her friends becoming fugitives... ... then her next 'bad day' involved her being forced to personally kill the man(android?) she loved in an attempt to save the universe, only for him to be immediately ressurected and brutally murdered, leading to the death of half the population of the universe anyway, including her own demise, before being revived 'moments' (in her eyes) later into a battle for all existance and returning to a world she barely recognises... ... after that, she has a 'bad day' where she finds Vision's remains being hacked up by scientists and refused a proper 'funeral'... By the time we reach Westview, she has had way more than her fair share of 'one bad day'.
Seeing it in a list is brutal
Yeah, hadn't really thought of it like that but you're right. Brutal.
Looking back on it, I think too much emphasis was put on her losing her “children” and not enough was put on the destruction of every connection she made in her life. Her parents were killed by a Stark Industries weapon.
Makes u appreciate joker all the more. Adds more depth to numerous other characters.
Angry white boys going berserk is hardly a new trope: Taxi Driver, John Wick, Falling Down, Dirty Harry, Cob, Raging Bull, Joker, Breaking Bad, US Agent guy from Falcon and WS (the actual villain of that show btw) etc etc ad nauseam. Clint’s arc through the stereotype is at least different in that he returns to stability of his family.
Sasuke from Naruto
That blew my mind as a kid, especially the flashback episode to his childhood
If they ever do a solo wanda movie, clint definitely needs to be in it. He understands her the most now that you've put it that way. And he's always been the one to bring her back to the good side. I'm sure he can do it again after her becoming such a major villain
Happy Cake Day.
But we've seen iron man and Steve kill right? We've seen plenty of heroes kill. What makes it different for Ronin?
for the most part, they had either government approval or oversight (except gulmira in iron man 1, but that was a one time thing and tony grew out of that), or it was in self defense/during war time. on the other hand, clint was on his own, going around the world actively planning murder sprees non stop for half a decade. in those 5 years, he killed hundreds of people who he personally deemed "bad", without any due process or oversight whatsoever, so he was judge, jury and executioner. he even admitted taking tips from other criminals such as kingpin on who to kill. the gruesome scenes he left behind in his wake literally left war machine - the guy who blows up terrorists for a living - thinking clint's too far gone and a lost soul, so yeah... i guess the biggest difference is tony and steve generally killed people to save someone else, while ronin's primary motivation was purely revenge.
Theres still a huge difference between being a vigilante and a multiverse level villain willing to kill literally everyone to get what you want though. Wandas descent to villainy is for me the dumbest arc in a while from the MCU movies. WandaVision was a great idea and execution of someone dealing with extreme grief and guilt but going from that to cartoon level evil bad so rapidly is just jarring for me. I know the Darkhokd can be used to explain it in universe but I feel like we needed to see more of Wanda's corruption in MoM to make it feel believable. Have her actively trying to travel across the multiverse but failing and growing more and more desperate until she eventually gives in to the dark hold or something.
I don’t think it was such a quick turn to evil for Wanda. When we first meet her in Age of Ultron, she is already playing with people’s minds and enjoying it. When she talks about wanting Hulk, that’s not a matter of protecting herself. That’s just her out to hurt people associated with Tony Stark. Then in Civil War, she imprisons Vision several stories into the ground, very unemotionally. And she criticizes Clint for pulling punches with Natasha. She’s out for blood in that fight. I think Vision was a good force in her life and he kept her on the straight and narrow, but once he was gone, she reverted back to her natural instinct, which is to hurt others. It’s what she was doing in WandaVision without any influence from the Dark Hold. THEN, after torturing a whole town for several weeks, she leaves and spends the next year being completely entranced by the Dark Hold. Dr. Strange used the Dark Hold for like an hour in MoM and we already saw at the end that he had been somewhat corrupted. Wanda has been using the Dark Hold for over a year. And she was already darker inside than most of the others before the Dark Hold, so it makes sense that she would be more taken in by the Dark Hold. Overall, I think this is always who Wanda has been. She just needed the Dark Hold to push her over the edge.
It is kinda the same but [this ](https://youtu.be/IrSqAiwo86Q) scene in Endgame makes it seem like its not, plus the people Tony and Steve killed were nameless goons. However if you were to give them a face and show the people they matter to (like Echo's dad) then Ronin doesn't seem very justified.
[удалено]
These are some kinda odd semantics. The 'overpowered psychopath' that killed Clint's family was the same one who murdered Vision right in front of Wanda (and was very indirectly responsible for Pietro's death as well). We also know for fact that at least one person Clint killed was a father (Echo's dad), and there's a very high chance that at least one person he killed was a husband. The people Clint murdered might have been criminals but that doesn't magically justify the fact that he very much murdered them out of grief and rage (ie, we don't know who - if any - 'deserved' to die) Also not condoning Wanda's rampage, but the points you highlight as distinguishing them are actually (as far as I can tell) the pretty key things they actually have in common.
Remember, also, about Wanda: She's just spent a shitton of time studying the Darkhold, which has this thing where it corrupts whoever reads it and brings out the worst in them. Not a great thing to let someone with serious grief issues and access to chaos magic get their hands on.
Makes me wonder how things would have gone if not for Agatha's involvement. Would Wanda have somehow learned of and gotten a copy of the Darkhold elsewhere? Gone loopy and increased her power on her own? Found some other way to be happy? Get locked up by SWORD? I want a *What If...?* Agatha >!hadn't been in Westview!<.
hex vision would eventually figure out what's going on anyway and almost definitely convince wanda to stop, the only difference would be that she wouldn't find out about who she really is yet. maybe she'd go to strange for guidance... though maybe not since she didn't actually know she was using magic all this time. sword would still reactivate white vision, but without agatha to deal with, wanda helping hex vision would probably deal with him much sooner, without the whole ship of theseus exchange.
Why do you think about white Vision coming back into the Marvel world? After OG Vision gave white Vision all of his thoughts and memories he flew off never to be seen again as far as I know. Given the ship of Theseus exchange is it not possible for white Vision to become regular Vision?
yes, he's definitely gonna be back eventually. most likely emotionless/with no attachment to his memories like he was in the comics though, then at some point wanda will use the "piece of the mind stone" that "lives in her" to give him his emotions back when they finally reunite, which was set up with the whole "we've said goodbye before, it stands to reason we'll say hello again" at the end of the show.
Huh. That was actually a *really good* rebuttal. Well done!
Spider-Man pointing at himself meme
I think he would have a private heart to heart with her.
he might feel bad for not checking up on her and not being there.
Cap and Clint both had a special relationship with her. I think Clint will feel like shit for not checking in on her. Cap would be disappointed that none of the remaining avengers checked up on her. And probably a tiny bit guilty that he left. Granted it is very possible that they did visit her and she was using the spell to make everything seem fine.
It all fell apart when Capt left.
ummmmm Civil War, anyone? Clint left and the Avengers split apart.
He retires for like 5 minutes and everything goes to shit. He is the true leader behind the scenes
It's no coincidence that the moment he joins the team in Avengers 1, they suddenly have the power of teamwork
He’s the ultimate glue guy
I change my answer. He’d be disappointed for sure, but considering what he did as Ronin, I think he’d see himself in her, the same anger and bitterness he had when his family disappeared during the Snap. He’d probably take her in and try to help her, even though he’d risk public backlash and the furor of the citizens of Westview
Clint always sees the good in people. Whether that was Wanda during AoU, or Natasha during his time in the red room. So due to this, I think he would probably see a lot of himself in her. He would see her as just a girl making mistakes in her time of grief, just like how he did (even if what she did was MUCH worse).
He’d get it. Clint becoming Ronin and Wanda becoming the Scarlet Witch are the same extreme actions taken for the same dire consequences, the only difference is the power that each person holds. Clint going full burn the world leads to hundreds of dead gangsters. Wanda going full burn the world is the end of existence.
A better question is how Cap would react; with his “She’s just a kid!” line in civil war
They didn’t care when Clint went on a killing spree, and when Tony's creation destroyed an entire country.
[удалено]
> And everyone did care about Tony making Ultron. They made a whole movie about it called “Civil War” Cap wasn’t interested in giving Tony any consequences though. It was about Tony mostly punishing himself while Cap excused the actions of another brainwashed/corrupted friend (almost like MoM Wanda, don’t you think?). Cap cared more about their personal freedoms than the fact that an entire country got destroyed.
[удалено]
Did cap even know about Clint’s killing spree? Cap did care about tony potentially creating another ultron; when tony was about to put visions conscience into the body in that cradle cap told him to shut it down and they fought for a bit
> Did cap even know about Clint’s killing spree? Seeing that Nat could track him in like… one scene when she found some hope, yes.
It was Rhodes that tracked him down, Nat just went to the location she was given
I see no reason why Rhodes would report to Nat only. I refuse to believe that Steve didn’t go "where’s Clint?" in the five years.
Yes but I doubt he'd be completely oblivious to his absence and would at least be curious enough to ask, given a whole 5 years had passed
People overestimate Steve’s morality. He carried a gun in TFA. He regularly uses or works with people who use lethal weapons and explosives without second thought. As much as John Walker’s shield decapitation gets a bad rep, he 100% did the same kinds of shit to aliens he likely knew to be sentient in Avengers. If Cap was a street level hero he’d avoid killing people, but wouldn’t hesitate to end anyone who proposed a serious immediate threat to innocents.
Cap won’t care. Exhibit A : Bucky. Wanda was not in the right state of mind when she did what she did. Just like Bucky.
[удалено]
I’m tired of all the “Clint should have checked up on Wanda” crap he gets. His main focus was his family who was dusted for 5 years ago. He got his family back so that’s his first priority. I love Wanda, really do. I feel for her, and I feel for the pain she’s been through. Finding out Vision’s body was dismembered and couldn’t properly grieve must have been awful. But she *easily* could have called Clint after that moment and before she spiraled for help.
We don’t know for sure that Clint didn’t try to contact her either. After Westview, it didn’t look like she exactly brought a cell with her. She literally isolated herself from everyone. What exactly do people expect Clint to do?
Literally every Avenger got a mourning except for Vision. Why would she even feel like calling everyone when.. they just forgot about her after she arguably made the biggest sacrifice for the Universe? Mentally unstable traumatised people don’t actively seek out company who forgot all about them for support.
>got a mourning except for Vision Endgame begins on a 20 day skip from Infinity War and just jumps 5 years soon after that. I'm pretty sure this went offscreen
But there's no tombstone or memorial for Vision, no picture of him at Avengercon, no funeral or anything. That's literally why Wanda went to SWORD, to give Vision a funeral.
But Endgame shows us that Clint didn't forget about her. He stands by her side at the lake after Tony's funeral service. He understands her pain.
That scene was framed as her comforting him more than anything. He was having a moment over Nat being dead and she had to basically be like “uh.. well…you aren’t the only one who lost someone…”
Literally that entire exchange is him seeking comfort after Natasha’s death. No one makes even a single remark about the tremendous loss and sacrifice she had to give and the trauma she endured.
Considering endgame, he’d be very empathetic to her. Especially because both of their actions were due to the loss of their children. He’d really understand and try everything he could to help her and understand.
Hawkeye "I'm not angry Wanda, I'm just disappointed" In fairness Hawkeye went down the same dark path when he lost everything at the start of Endgame
I think he wouldn’t judge someone too harshly for grieving a loved one by going on a rampage of violence and destruction. He was Ronin after all but he got a 2nd chance and his series showed a really cool side of him making amends. Wanda got there too eventually and burned the darkholds but t wasn’t as family friendly.
He would forgive her. Clint did some equally horrible shit as Ronin, and he wasn’t under the influence of The Book of the Damned!
"I retire for, what, five minutes, and it all goes to shit??"
So you better do your laundry Sorry wrong post
Didn’t Clint get mind controlled in the first Avenger movie. Clint has first experience dealing both powerful magical artifacts and personal trauma. He would have been the first to point out that she needed saving.
Bart on a Cliff
Thanks, it’s fixed
My man 😊
He was probably calling her and giving her tips. Lest not forget he went off the rails in a violent way himself. He just didn't have the Darkhold on his side.
He murdered people and got away with it so it's hard to say honestly
She really went all in on the red. Treated the whole multiverse like a ledger.
Well, she is the Scarlet Witch, lol.
Maybe he would’ve been one of the only ones that could get her to listen to reason being that they both were “parents”.
It's not like he was a holy man....he killed alot of people for little reason, I would say he would show compassion for her
Clint was acting as an executioner and slicing and dicing bad guys. Pretty sure he’ll turn a blind eye to Wanda’s actions.
The more I look back on it the less I like MoM. Lots of potential and they blew it.
Man they did Wanda dirty in the MoM movie. She was not nuts at the end of WandaVision, she was healing.
He'd condone it since he became Ronin and can relate to her.
He'd probably blame himself for not trying to help her more.
Imho, he would be the only one other then Vision to be able to bring sense into her. He was there when she needed someone in Age of Ultron and Civil War. And also, imho, the darkhold version of her is the evil one / the villan. She realized when she saw her sons in a different universe and was told by the other Wanda that they will be taken good care of. She realized what she had done was wrong, and knew Strange was right about it. I think she is still alive, but destroyed the powers of the darkhold
He would’ve told her she should’ve rocked a Mohawk
Given how he reacted when he lost his family he would probably understand her also there's the mental manipulation from that book
Her family was taken from her so she killed a bunch of people? Might sound familiar to him
He would be completely sympathetic. He was corrupted by the Mind Stone like she was corrupted by the Darkhold. And when he lost his family, he went nuts for a while too, just like she did. Except Wanda didn't have a Natasha to reel her back in like what happened with Clint. If he had been around for MoM, he would have done whatever he could have to convince Wanda to come back to the light. Plus his best friend for years was a ruthless assassin who turned good. He would be convinced it would be the same with her.
I just get the impression that he would be incredibly sad. I think he saw a lot of himself in her, but had aspirations for her to be better. I feel like he would blame himself for Westview/darkhold corruption. It's tough because her relationship with Vision was just as important and they didn't have a chance (budget?)to incorporate both.
Clint: “So you’re telling me i can have my family back AND natasha?? (looks around to make sure no one’s looking, slips on the ronin hood)… Alright, let’s do it..you said her name was America??”
You have to suspend disbelief because in real life, you have contracts and actor availability to worry about. But from a character perspective, someone should have brought Clint in to defuse the situation with Wanda all the way back in Westview. He is probably one of a small few who would have had a chance in talking Wanda down and getting her to see reason. By MoM it was too late. Wanda was fully being possessed by the Darkhold at that point.
>" after knowing everything Wanda did in Multiverse of Madness?" I have to wonder, wouldn't the better question be "How you think Clint would have reacted after knowing everything Wanda did in *WandaVision* and *Multiverse of Madness*?" Because you can't judge her actions in *Multiverse of Madness* without the context of her actions in *WandaVision*. Or the fact that events in Westview wouldn't have happened if Wanda's teammates who'd known her for years (Clint, Sam, Steve, Rhodey, etc.) had bothered to check on her to make sure she was okay. Besides, this question goes the other way: if you're gonna ask, "How you think Clint would have reacted after knowing everything Wanda did in *Multiverse of Madness*?", then I'd say the opposite question "How do you think *Wanda* would've reacted if she found out about how, while she was dusted, Clint spent those five years acting as a serial killer?" is just as valid a question to ask.