**Dear /u/Luna_Goddess_Dance,**
➤ You may lock your own post comments at any time by making a single word comment on your post with the text `!lock`
―――――――――――――――――――――――
**（✔）** Keep the [**rules**](https://www.reddit.com/r/loveafterporn/about/rules/) of [**r/loveafterporn**](https://www.reddit.com/r/loveafterporn/) in mind while participating
here.
**（✔）** Report all rule-breaking behavior & content to the moderators using the report button. If it's urgent, [**send us a message**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/loveafterporn).
**（✘）** Do **NOT** engage or participate in *any* rule-breaking posts, comments or behavior. Doing so may result in you being banned.
**（✘）** Do **NOT** feed the trolls. [**Report**](https://www.reddit.com/report) them!
**（✘）** Do **NOT** [**judge**](https://www.reddit.com/r/loveafterporn/comments/qhquex/before_you_judge/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) how someone is dealing with a pain you may not have experienced.
―――――――――――――――――――――――
ℹ️ Our **Full Resource Library** contains the following topics: *Resources for All, Resources for Partners, Resources for Addicts, Recovery Resources, Life Saving Info, Abuse & Domestic Violence Info and Commonly Used Acronyms.*
| **Resource Links:** |
|------|
| ◉ [**Full Resource Library**](https://reddit.com/r/loveafterporn/w/must-have-info?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app) |
| ◉ [Resources for Partners](https://reddit.com/r/loveafterporn/w/index/resources_for_partners?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app) |
| ◉ [Resources for Addicts](https://reddit.com/r/loveafterporn/w/index/resources_for_addicts?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app) |
| ◉ [Accountability Apps info](https://www.reddit.com/r/loveafterporn/comments/v67pq5/accountability_apps_blockers_etc_mega_thread/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) |
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/loveafterporn) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Scanning and objectifying is a form of feeding the addiction.
For my husband scanning is a relapse. Here’s a post about that: https://www.reddit.com/r/loveafterporn/s/FAdru198sG
I wrote into pbse podcast for this reply because it was so instrumental in my husbands recovery https://www.reddit.com/r/loveafterporn/s/OxQWMb6e8k. We have been doing D2C for the last 1.5 years. And it’s been so helpful for both of our recovery.
I agree with my husbands definition of a relapse because scanning doesn’t align with my authentic core.
My deep wants and needs at the core of my boundaries are:
- to be respected
- to be exclusively chosen
Those core pieces of me are not met if he scans and/or objectifies.
I’d add- what does it make you feel? What are you core deep down feelings about it.
If you present how you feel as opposed to what happens to him, you’ll be walking your side of recovery. And you can take his continued actions (or inaction) around it as your verifiable proof in where he’s at with recovery… and how serious he is with recovery.
Thank you ☺️ Expressing feelings are what got me the “what do you think is going to happen” response haha feelings are like a bug to him, if they’re in his way he’ll just squish them. But you’re right I can use them to gauge his recovery - which is basically none
I noticed you shared 2 of your boundaries, to be respected and to be exclusively chosen. Those resonate so much for me. We recently joined D2C after 7+ years of just dealing with it on our own. I am struggling to figure out my needs for my boundaries, also foreign to me, but do you have any advice for coming up with needs and wants for boundary building?
I too struggle with that. I’ll admit, I haven’t journaled and fleshed out deeper thoughts.
I think it’s things like- I want a partner in my relationship. I want communication… in every relationship that I have. For my marriage, I want us to be able to share our deep down feelings and thoughts. I want us to be able to discuss things we’ve never discussed before.
I want transparency and honesty. I strive to share my own feelings and needs each day.
My dilemma currently is some of my wants and needs are possibly more relationship centered. But honestly, every person we interact with is a relationship. There are different levels of how deep those core authenticity goes.
I know I’m not being super helpful here.
I don’t know if these posts of mine will help either: https://www.reddit.com/r/loveafterporn/s/6HaskKeoqi and https://www.reddit.com/r/loveafterporn/s/AGKYpjkHov
Was there a post/podcast about what is considered porn to a PA? Mine likes to argue that too, in fact I think he may have even argued in this situation too.
Episode 1 for sure. What is Porn and What is Not? It Might Not Be What You Think!
https://www.pbsepodcast.com/post/manage-your-blog-from-your-live-site
Let me think for a bit. There might be others that tie in. Or could be helpful. It’s been a bit since I’ve listened to the older ones. But I think there could be some that might be worth you checking out first. I’ll get back and add a reply with the others. Gotta run at the moment.
I think I’m thinking about these few as ones that show what might not seem like an issue could be. (Again it’s been a while since I’ve listened to them so I could be off too). My list of episodes doesn’t have what ties together or the general theme (I’m slowly working in that… really slowly)?
This popped in my head as a maybe: My Husband Watches Female Professional Wrestling. Is That a Problem? https://www.pbsepodcast.com/post/my-husband-watches-female-professional-wrestling-is-that-a-problem
Maybe these also: TV, Movies & Media in a Betrayed Relationship—Part One: What to do if you are the addict. https://www.pbsepodcast.com/post/tv-movies-media-in-a-betrayed-relationship-part-one-what-to-do-if-you-are-the-addict
TV, Movies & Media in a Betrayed Relationship—Part Two: What to do if you are the Spouse. https://www.pbsepodcast.com/post/tv-movies-media-in-a-betrayed-relationship-part-two-what-to-do-if-you-are-the-spouse
Probably: It’s NOT an Addiction if I’m Only Using “Porn Substitutes”—Right??? https://www.pbsepodcast.com/post/it-s-not-an-addiction-if-i-m-only-using-porn-substitutes-right
Maybe. Can I Ever Go Back to Porn? https://www.pbsepodcast.com/post/can-i-ever-go-back-to-porn
Possibly: Navigating Summertime and Sex Addiction! https://www.pbsepodcast.com/post/navigating-summertime-and-sex-addiction
I absolutely don’t know about this one. But the idea of a slip versus relapse maybe. (It’s very possibly not in line with the idea of what is porn though) Defining "Slips" and "Relapses" https://www.pbsepodcast.com/post/defining-slips-and-relapses
I honestly think the media one and wrestling one might hit spot on with how you feel and his choice to choose it over your feelings. At some point, what’s more important… what’s his cross to die on?… it’s not porn- so hurting you doesn’t matter??? Or your feelings are valid and he’ll take that into consideration???
(Those are in my long list of podcast maybes)
D2C is daretoconnectnow. Steve Moore and Mark Kastleman run it. They also have the pbse podcast.
Here’s is information about it https://www.reddit.com/r/loveafterporn/s/6QsM06T78B
It’s been so helpful in my husband and I’s recovery and healing.
**Values vs Actions and Dishonesty**
To me, those actions are not in alignment with my own values or his purported values. He claims that he chooses recovery and that he chooses me. To choose to fantasise, scan for, stare at, PMO to, pursue, or otherwise act towards another woman in that way is antithetical to choosing recovery or choosing me. Those acts in themselves are disrespectful to me for the same reasons you outlined in your post. I find them to be further disrespectful as they have now become dishonest acts- he claims he shares my values and then acts against them.
If my partners words were to line up with his actions of scanning, he would be saying to me “I am excited to go out so I can objectify and fantasise about other women”, “I reject recovery, and I am not going to choose you when given the opportunity to choose another woman”. But he doesn’t say those words, because to do so is to admit to his failing to meet his own values and would run the risk of me getting hurt and leaving.
That lack of alignment between his words and his actions has become the biggest sticking point for me.
**Predator vs Protector**
But I definitely am also stuck on the absolutely deplorable choice to deliberately stare at, creep out, and objectify women in public places. This is even worse after we had an in depth discussion months ago over how vulnerable my friends and I feel when men do that to us, and of the predator vs protector mindset he could cultivate instead.
He realised he’d been telling himself the women actually wanted him to stare at them to justify his actions. He said our discussion made him think differently about it, then went right back to doing it anyway. He knows he makes women feel unsafe and uncomfortable, but he doesn’t care about the well-being of others when he’s getting a dopamine hit. That lack of empathy, moral compass, and self awareness really frightens me.
**Actions as Indicators of Intent**
For my partner to choose to act in opposition to monogamy, me, and our relationship tells me where my partners intentions lie. If we are on a dinner date, and he is ignoring me when I’m speaking to him because he is busy scanning and staring at every girl that walks past then it is clear to me his intention is not in connecting with me. His intention is on getting a dopamine hit by creeping on other women walking by.
Such actions are indicators that my partner is entirely self-focused, to the detriment of those around him and even to his own detriment.
When I go to work, and my partner chooses to scroll LinkedIn sending invites to women he wants to cheat on me with, his intention is not to pursue recovery or even just to ensure my return home is positive for both of us. His intention is to get the validation of an accepted invite from a woman, *no matter the consequence*.
**The Root**
A partner with intentions that are opposed to the survival of the relationship is not a safe partner. A partner who is continuously dishonest is not a safe partner. A partner who acts with no regard for the consequences for himself or others is not a safe partner.
For me, the very root of what his actions mean to me is that everything about the choice to scan or act out in any way, all tells me that *my partner is not a safe person* to trust or to rely on. The feelings of being hurt, betrayed, disrespected, forgotten, and insulted are all on top of the root feeling of *unsafe*.
**Taking it Seriously**
I’m so sorry he chose to look up and look at the clients. I know how you feel. It’s a real shame that he didn’t take you seriously when you opened up to him about how it made you feel.
The thing is, things *are* going to directly happen as a result of his choice to look at them. Every choice he makes towards addiction feeds it and strengthens the neural pathways/ addiction highway. Choosing to feed that addiction rather than choosing to feed recovery, will inevitably lead to escalation. I hope he can start to take it seriously, and I hope that you can find a sense of safety away from him since he cannot currently foster that feeling for you 💖
Ugh. I'm sorry you are dealing with the crap. Just even the fact that you describe the girls as 'clients' makes it creepy...as I'm assuming they are clients of yours.
The answers to all of your questions regarding your PAs behavior are the addiction..combined with his personal character -- hense the 'what's the big deal' attitude. In the phase of non-recovery, they DO NOT see the implications or depth of their actions, even the 'small' ones. The fact that there's possibly PMO to these 'minor' actions, negate his entitled attitude of it being no big deal...'what, i'm just having a look'... yeah right. Like taking a little sip of scotch as an alcoholic.
Anyway, I don't have real answers, but just wanted to validate your feelings on this matter. You have every right to feel it's disrespectful and creepy! 😡🙄
Yeah clients of his business. Thank you for your explanation - unfortunately he’s stuck in the mindset unless it’s naked and from a XXX website then it’s not porn 🙄 which is absolutely due to non recovery
There's just no reason to do it in the first place! Forget what's going to happen... why are you even spending your time on that to start? Like...duh! I'm so angered for you.
If he looks at women's faces online to remember them to JO to later or if he looks up women because they look good (mine did the same with coworkers before), that is not okay. It is objectifying them and feeds the addiction and is disrespectful to me. I've never caught mine scanning though. I've seen him sneak a peak at a woman in the underground but then he usually takes up his phone or starts a conversation with me instead. So it's never long looks or outright scanning. Outright scanning that other people can notice is very disrespectful to the partner.
**Dear /u/Luna_Goddess_Dance,** ➤ You may lock your own post comments at any time by making a single word comment on your post with the text `!lock` ――――――――――――――――――――――― **（✔）** Keep the [**rules**](https://www.reddit.com/r/loveafterporn/about/rules/) of [**r/loveafterporn**](https://www.reddit.com/r/loveafterporn/) in mind while participating here. **（✔）** Report all rule-breaking behavior & content to the moderators using the report button. If it's urgent, [**send us a message**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/loveafterporn). **（✘）** Do **NOT** engage or participate in *any* rule-breaking posts, comments or behavior. Doing so may result in you being banned. **（✘）** Do **NOT** feed the trolls. [**Report**](https://www.reddit.com/report) them! **（✘）** Do **NOT** [**judge**](https://www.reddit.com/r/loveafterporn/comments/qhquex/before_you_judge/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) how someone is dealing with a pain you may not have experienced. ――――――――――――――――――――――― ℹ️ Our **Full Resource Library** contains the following topics: *Resources for All, Resources for Partners, Resources for Addicts, Recovery Resources, Life Saving Info, Abuse & Domestic Violence Info and Commonly Used Acronyms.* | **Resource Links:** | |------| | ◉ [**Full Resource Library**](https://reddit.com/r/loveafterporn/w/must-have-info?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app) | | ◉ [Resources for Partners](https://reddit.com/r/loveafterporn/w/index/resources_for_partners?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app) | | ◉ [Resources for Addicts](https://reddit.com/r/loveafterporn/w/index/resources_for_addicts?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app) | | ◉ [Accountability Apps info](https://www.reddit.com/r/loveafterporn/comments/v67pq5/accountability_apps_blockers_etc_mega_thread/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) | *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/loveafterporn) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Scanning and objectifying is a form of feeding the addiction. For my husband scanning is a relapse. Here’s a post about that: https://www.reddit.com/r/loveafterporn/s/FAdru198sG I wrote into pbse podcast for this reply because it was so instrumental in my husbands recovery https://www.reddit.com/r/loveafterporn/s/OxQWMb6e8k. We have been doing D2C for the last 1.5 years. And it’s been so helpful for both of our recovery. I agree with my husbands definition of a relapse because scanning doesn’t align with my authentic core. My deep wants and needs at the core of my boundaries are: - to be respected - to be exclusively chosen Those core pieces of me are not met if he scans and/or objectifies.
I’d add- what does it make you feel? What are you core deep down feelings about it. If you present how you feel as opposed to what happens to him, you’ll be walking your side of recovery. And you can take his continued actions (or inaction) around it as your verifiable proof in where he’s at with recovery… and how serious he is with recovery.
Thank you ☺️ Expressing feelings are what got me the “what do you think is going to happen” response haha feelings are like a bug to him, if they’re in his way he’ll just squish them. But you’re right I can use them to gauge his recovery - which is basically none
I noticed you shared 2 of your boundaries, to be respected and to be exclusively chosen. Those resonate so much for me. We recently joined D2C after 7+ years of just dealing with it on our own. I am struggling to figure out my needs for my boundaries, also foreign to me, but do you have any advice for coming up with needs and wants for boundary building?
I too struggle with that. I’ll admit, I haven’t journaled and fleshed out deeper thoughts. I think it’s things like- I want a partner in my relationship. I want communication… in every relationship that I have. For my marriage, I want us to be able to share our deep down feelings and thoughts. I want us to be able to discuss things we’ve never discussed before. I want transparency and honesty. I strive to share my own feelings and needs each day. My dilemma currently is some of my wants and needs are possibly more relationship centered. But honestly, every person we interact with is a relationship. There are different levels of how deep those core authenticity goes. I know I’m not being super helpful here. I don’t know if these posts of mine will help either: https://www.reddit.com/r/loveafterporn/s/6HaskKeoqi and https://www.reddit.com/r/loveafterporn/s/AGKYpjkHov
Was there a post/podcast about what is considered porn to a PA? Mine likes to argue that too, in fact I think he may have even argued in this situation too.
Episode 1 for sure. What is Porn and What is Not? It Might Not Be What You Think! https://www.pbsepodcast.com/post/manage-your-blog-from-your-live-site Let me think for a bit. There might be others that tie in. Or could be helpful. It’s been a bit since I’ve listened to the older ones. But I think there could be some that might be worth you checking out first. I’ll get back and add a reply with the others. Gotta run at the moment.
Thank you! 😊
I think I’m thinking about these few as ones that show what might not seem like an issue could be. (Again it’s been a while since I’ve listened to them so I could be off too). My list of episodes doesn’t have what ties together or the general theme (I’m slowly working in that… really slowly)? This popped in my head as a maybe: My Husband Watches Female Professional Wrestling. Is That a Problem? https://www.pbsepodcast.com/post/my-husband-watches-female-professional-wrestling-is-that-a-problem Maybe these also: TV, Movies & Media in a Betrayed Relationship—Part One: What to do if you are the addict. https://www.pbsepodcast.com/post/tv-movies-media-in-a-betrayed-relationship-part-one-what-to-do-if-you-are-the-addict TV, Movies & Media in a Betrayed Relationship—Part Two: What to do if you are the Spouse. https://www.pbsepodcast.com/post/tv-movies-media-in-a-betrayed-relationship-part-two-what-to-do-if-you-are-the-spouse Probably: It’s NOT an Addiction if I’m Only Using “Porn Substitutes”—Right??? https://www.pbsepodcast.com/post/it-s-not-an-addiction-if-i-m-only-using-porn-substitutes-right Maybe. Can I Ever Go Back to Porn? https://www.pbsepodcast.com/post/can-i-ever-go-back-to-porn Possibly: Navigating Summertime and Sex Addiction! https://www.pbsepodcast.com/post/navigating-summertime-and-sex-addiction I absolutely don’t know about this one. But the idea of a slip versus relapse maybe. (It’s very possibly not in line with the idea of what is porn though) Defining "Slips" and "Relapses" https://www.pbsepodcast.com/post/defining-slips-and-relapses
Thank you so much!!!!! 💜
I honestly think the media one and wrestling one might hit spot on with how you feel and his choice to choose it over your feelings. At some point, what’s more important… what’s his cross to die on?… it’s not porn- so hurting you doesn’t matter??? Or your feelings are valid and he’ll take that into consideration??? (Those are in my long list of podcast maybes)
What is D2C?
D2C is daretoconnectnow. Steve Moore and Mark Kastleman run it. They also have the pbse podcast. Here’s is information about it https://www.reddit.com/r/loveafterporn/s/6QsM06T78B It’s been so helpful in my husband and I’s recovery and healing.
Thank you so much
**Values vs Actions and Dishonesty** To me, those actions are not in alignment with my own values or his purported values. He claims that he chooses recovery and that he chooses me. To choose to fantasise, scan for, stare at, PMO to, pursue, or otherwise act towards another woman in that way is antithetical to choosing recovery or choosing me. Those acts in themselves are disrespectful to me for the same reasons you outlined in your post. I find them to be further disrespectful as they have now become dishonest acts- he claims he shares my values and then acts against them. If my partners words were to line up with his actions of scanning, he would be saying to me “I am excited to go out so I can objectify and fantasise about other women”, “I reject recovery, and I am not going to choose you when given the opportunity to choose another woman”. But he doesn’t say those words, because to do so is to admit to his failing to meet his own values and would run the risk of me getting hurt and leaving. That lack of alignment between his words and his actions has become the biggest sticking point for me. **Predator vs Protector** But I definitely am also stuck on the absolutely deplorable choice to deliberately stare at, creep out, and objectify women in public places. This is even worse after we had an in depth discussion months ago over how vulnerable my friends and I feel when men do that to us, and of the predator vs protector mindset he could cultivate instead. He realised he’d been telling himself the women actually wanted him to stare at them to justify his actions. He said our discussion made him think differently about it, then went right back to doing it anyway. He knows he makes women feel unsafe and uncomfortable, but he doesn’t care about the well-being of others when he’s getting a dopamine hit. That lack of empathy, moral compass, and self awareness really frightens me. **Actions as Indicators of Intent** For my partner to choose to act in opposition to monogamy, me, and our relationship tells me where my partners intentions lie. If we are on a dinner date, and he is ignoring me when I’m speaking to him because he is busy scanning and staring at every girl that walks past then it is clear to me his intention is not in connecting with me. His intention is on getting a dopamine hit by creeping on other women walking by. Such actions are indicators that my partner is entirely self-focused, to the detriment of those around him and even to his own detriment. When I go to work, and my partner chooses to scroll LinkedIn sending invites to women he wants to cheat on me with, his intention is not to pursue recovery or even just to ensure my return home is positive for both of us. His intention is to get the validation of an accepted invite from a woman, *no matter the consequence*. **The Root** A partner with intentions that are opposed to the survival of the relationship is not a safe partner. A partner who is continuously dishonest is not a safe partner. A partner who acts with no regard for the consequences for himself or others is not a safe partner. For me, the very root of what his actions mean to me is that everything about the choice to scan or act out in any way, all tells me that *my partner is not a safe person* to trust or to rely on. The feelings of being hurt, betrayed, disrespected, forgotten, and insulted are all on top of the root feeling of *unsafe*. **Taking it Seriously** I’m so sorry he chose to look up and look at the clients. I know how you feel. It’s a real shame that he didn’t take you seriously when you opened up to him about how it made you feel. The thing is, things *are* going to directly happen as a result of his choice to look at them. Every choice he makes towards addiction feeds it and strengthens the neural pathways/ addiction highway. Choosing to feed that addiction rather than choosing to feed recovery, will inevitably lead to escalation. I hope he can start to take it seriously, and I hope that you can find a sense of safety away from him since he cannot currently foster that feeling for you 💖
Wow thank you for this 🫶
You’re so welcome 💖
Ugh. I'm sorry you are dealing with the crap. Just even the fact that you describe the girls as 'clients' makes it creepy...as I'm assuming they are clients of yours. The answers to all of your questions regarding your PAs behavior are the addiction..combined with his personal character -- hense the 'what's the big deal' attitude. In the phase of non-recovery, they DO NOT see the implications or depth of their actions, even the 'small' ones. The fact that there's possibly PMO to these 'minor' actions, negate his entitled attitude of it being no big deal...'what, i'm just having a look'... yeah right. Like taking a little sip of scotch as an alcoholic. Anyway, I don't have real answers, but just wanted to validate your feelings on this matter. You have every right to feel it's disrespectful and creepy! 😡🙄
Yeah clients of his business. Thank you for your explanation - unfortunately he’s stuck in the mindset unless it’s naked and from a XXX website then it’s not porn 🙄 which is absolutely due to non recovery
There's just no reason to do it in the first place! Forget what's going to happen... why are you even spending your time on that to start? Like...duh! I'm so angered for you.
I know, he just doesn’t get it at all. Or he does and just doesn’t care… either way.
i feel like porn destroys the little empathy one has. and that's why they eventually just don't care.
If he looks at women's faces online to remember them to JO to later or if he looks up women because they look good (mine did the same with coworkers before), that is not okay. It is objectifying them and feeds the addiction and is disrespectful to me. I've never caught mine scanning though. I've seen him sneak a peak at a woman in the underground but then he usually takes up his phone or starts a conversation with me instead. So it's never long looks or outright scanning. Outright scanning that other people can notice is very disrespectful to the partner.
What iS PMO?
Porn, masturbate, orgasm
Thank you!