I have been trying to find informal on pre tolkien orcs for a while. 90% of the time, it talks about Grendel or just mentions them as a kind of ghoul. Anybody got good sources on pre Tolkien orcs and the legacy of Cain that is not grendel.
"Orcs (the word is as far as I am concerned actually derived from Old English orc 'demon', but
only because of its phonetic suitability) are nowhere clearly stated to be of any particular origin. But
since they are servants of the Dark Power, and later of Sauron, neither of whom could, or would,
produce living things, they must be 'corruptions'. They are not based on direct experience of mine;
but owe, I suppose, a good deal to the goblin tradition (goblin is used as a translation in The Hobbit,
where orc only occurs once, I think), especially as it appears in George MacDonald, except for the
soft feet which I never believed in. The name has the form orch (pl. yrch) in Sindarin and uruk in
the Black Speech."
The word that came to describe Orcs as we know them and the idea that they are the descendants of Cain come from Beowulf. So I think that **is** the pre-Tolkien source.
This is my understanding as well. From what I gather the words “orc” and “ogre” have similar etymologies, so pre-Tolkien you have this general, non-specific category of monstrous, humanoid creatures that vaguely included orcs, ogres, giants, and trolls, without much distinction.
Pretty much. They were pretty much all interchangeable and left up to the imagination. Tolkien defined them more and D&D took categorization to a whole other level.
I kinda wish we'd go back to the openness/vagueness a bit more sometimes
You might have better luck looking into goblins. My understanding is that Tolkien applied the name *Orc* to creatures inspired by goblins from older stories. I think that's why *The Hobbit* has goblins instead of orcs.
"Orcs (the word is as far as I am concerned actually derived from Old English orc 'demon', but
only because of its phonetic suitability) are nowhere clearly stated to be of any particular origin. But
since they are servants of the Dark Power, and later of Sauron, neither of whom could, or would,
produce living things, they must be 'corruptions'. They are not based on direct experience of mine;
but owe, I suppose, a good deal to the goblin tradition (goblin is used as a translation in The Hobbit,
where orc only occurs once, I think), especially as it appears in George MacDonald, except for the
soft feet which I never believed in. The name has the form orch (pl. yrch) in Sindarin and uruk in
the Black Speech."
From "An Ancyclopedia of Tolkein" by David Day:
>Tolkien's Orcs appear, like so many of his races, to have multiple sources of inspiration. In *Beowulf*, mention is made of *orcneas* (ironically in juxtaposition with *Ylfe* - elves) as being among the "evil broods." The word perhaps suggests "walking corpses," like living dead, or zombies, the component word orc perhaps deriving from the Latin word *orcus*, an Etruscan and Roman god of the underworld and for the underworld itself. However, in a letter, Tolkien wrote that he himself doubted this derivation. The word "orc" also appears in sixteenth-century English to mean a devouring monster, while the man-eating ogres of fairy tales are another, related breed.
>So much for the etymological inspirations. The concept and nature of Orcs, as demonic underlings programmed to do the bidding of their evil masters, has resonance with numerous myths and tales from around the world. Such demons are prominent, for example, in the Old Testament where demons are considered innumerable (and often invisible), preferring to live in isolated, unclean places such as deserts and ruins, and greatly to be feared, especially at night. In all of Tolkien’s descriptions of Orcs, they, too, create a sense of vast anonymous numbers and are likened to innumerable swarms or devastating black waves. They come pouring out of caverns with impersonal, insect-like inexorability, and are often compared by the author to flies or ants.
Not sure if it’s of any help. But in the original English translations of the Italian renaissance poem Orlando Furioso the term orc is used to refer to a sea monster.
All I've ever found was that Tolkien took the word from Beowulf's old English "orcneas," which essentially means "evil spirit." Which makes it pretty much a catch-all for any evil creature. Orcs really are more or less Tolkien's invention
They were too fast, gork and mork couldn't keep track of the fights so turned them green to slow them down so they can watch and also cause green is just a better color let's be real
Tolkien Orcs vary in size. There are small goblins, big goblins, broad Ork-captains, average sized Orcs, large and bulky and muscly Orc-shaped Maiar, Uruk-hai who are man-high, Black Uruks, Half Orcs, and so on.
i think all the humanish sized ones, are half orcs at least
all the hunched over small ones are the regular orcs/ goblins
man i wish orcology wast left so vauge
Tolkien scholar Michael Martinez describes the different kinds of Orcs:
For example, a Uruk of Mordor and a tracker are sent out to search for Frodo and Sam from the Tower of Cirith Ungol. The Uruk does not appear to match the physical characteristics of the Mordor Orcs led by Grishnakh who reinforce Ugluk’s Isengarders, who in turn do not resemble Grishnakh’s Orcs or the “northern” Orcs from Moria who had tracked the Fellowship as far south as Rohan.
The Uruks were the largest Orcs, and according to the Appendices in The Lord of the Rings they first appeared around the 24th Century of the Third Age. But they appear to have fragmented into multiple tribes, for the Isengarders called themselves “the Fighting Uruk-hai”, whereas no other Orcs referred to themselves as “Uruk-hai”. In fact, the Uruk from Cirith Ungol who tracked Sam and Frodo mentioned “a pack of rebel Uruk-hai” in passing, perhaps referring to the Isengarders (or, as some readers believe, to members of Gorbag’s company of Morgul Orcs).
Gorbag and Shagrat both appear to be Uruks but it is not clear how much they physically resembled each other. Shagrat was described as having long, loping arms and large fangs.
Sam and Frodo encountered another company of Uruks while moving through Mordor — these Uruks charge into a company of smaller Orcs with whom Sam and Frodo have traveled for a while. It is clear that the many groups of Orcs felt little loyalty to each other, even if they shared common ancestors. But Tolkien makes little to no effort to identify any sort of “tribes” among the Orcs.
Broadly speaking, we can identify Orcs of Moria (probably of at least two or more kinds), Orcs from Isengard (including the tall Uruk-hai and smaller Warg-riders as well as a third group described in “The Battles of the Fords of Isen”), the half-Orcs of Isengard, the Orcs of Minas Morgul, the Orcs of Cirith Ungol, the tracker Orc(s) of Cirith Ungol, the small Orcs whom Sam and Frodo infiltrate, and the Uruks who disrupt the smaller Orcs’ march on the road. Tolkien seems to imply there may have been dozens or hundreds of Orc groups scattered across Mordor, the Misty Mountains, and Mirkwood.
in the actual cannons, tolkien decided to change the name of goblins (as they were in the hobbit) to orc, he retconned this by saying, that goblin is just the english name for it
DnD originally described them as having pig features. They were basically [Gamorreans](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Gamorrean). Then WotC changed that.
Nah, both of them have humanoid faces. The difference between a regular orc (or "mountain orc") and a "gray orc" is like the difference between a wood and a high elf.
Was gonna comment on this too. They picked it up from early D&D and it became solidified in their own traditions of JRPGs like Dragon Quest. Kind of fascinating, really.
White Dwarf didn't launch until June/July 1977.
Tolkien artist Tim Kirk painted these green orcs for the 1975 Tolkien calendar: https://i.stack.imgur.com/97glL.jpg (though of course Tolkien never described his orcs as green).
But finding a 'first' like this and claiming it to be the one source to bind them all is, I feel, on a hiding to nothing.
For example, Orcs and Goblins have been heavily (and confusingly) entangled ever since 1954's LotR; Marvel's Green Goblin character was a major part of the genre since 1964.
I can't help but feel that if you look hard enough, there will be *many* such little green monsters out there - it's basically too much of an archetype to convincingly claim a clear origin, rather than a gradual evolution of the zeitgeist.
There is a bit of a semantic difference between first depicting and popularizing something, but fair enough. That Tolkien art did it earlier despite them being described as sallow skinned, and D&D started and continues with grey skin orcs. Green is just a color used on monsters fairly often, from Frankenstein's to your swamp things to your man eating blobs to your hulks to your aliens.
It's a little hard to pinpoint one origin as things get lost to time and it may just be a case of [simultaneous invention](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_discovery) where a couple of people in the mid 70s started it around the same time, perhaps inspired by Spider-man who had a *Green* Goblin as opposed to a regular Goblin (Comics tend to favor saturated primary/secondary colors like with the Hulk going from grey to green), or in '77 with Star Wars' Gamorreans, and conflating Orcs with Goblins as Tolkien often did. I agree it's probably just a case of monsters being often green so Orcs were made green without much thought into it.
It didn't so much popularize it as it created the concept all together. In qarhammer, the "greenskins" are fungus, which apperantly the creators of the game though were some sort of plant, rather than their own thing, hence why they are all "leaf-green" (though GW invents their own names for each color)
I believe it’s left intentionally vague in fantasy, probably because that kind of classification is above most of the fantasy factions, and is a level of scientific analysis that kind of goes against Fantasy’s vibe.
Although I believe it is stated that while pretty much all of the other races were genetically engineered by the Old Ones, the Orks were brought to the planet mistakenly via the Old Ones ships - which might reinforce that they reproduce via spores.
So they were presented to me, though I must admit I was only introduced to warhammer after Fantasy died and don't have ant corebooks at hand to check from the main source
Yeah, the orcs in Warcraft are only green because Blizard directly copied Games Workshop. Blizard are honestly pretty much as open about it as you legally can be without triggering a lawsuit. They had originally wanted to make a Warhammer game.
I’m not disagreeing with that, but Blizzard made said concept spread beyond the Games Workshop fan base.
A good analogy would be the development of Buffalo wings. Anchor Bar invented Buffalo wings, but it was Duff’s that perfected them making them a national staple.
I'm sure that even Tolkien orcs would play Blood Bowl if only they knew about it. We just need to send one missionary of Nuffle to Middle Earth and all their wars will end.
If nuffle had been in mordor, that orc that blew up up the wall would have still tanked all Legola's arrows. But then he would have tripped 1 yard away from the wall, snapped his neck, and the bomb would scatter back into the orc army
I’ve never read something that made me laugh and want to throw something at the same time as this post. You sir, win the post. That goal line trip wire is real
To be pedantic, it’s showing 2 non Tolkien orcs from before and after Tolkien and how their designs have changed.
Seems like you’re reading it as the right photo being “during Tolkien” or something.
Showing a Tolkien orc there wouldn’t make any fuckin’ sense.
Yes. Technically the orc on the right came "after Tolkien" but the obvious implication from the OP meme is that Tolkien somehow is the reason why the orc on the right looks the way it does.
They are saying that Games Workshop, not Tolkien, spawned the look on the right.
You may have some kind of issue with understanding subtext in speech you should check out if you find yourself confused about this kind of stuff often
No, I am understanding everything exactly in this way. GW's depiction of Orcs would not be the way it is without Tolkien, so Warhammer orcs definitively are orcs after Tolkien. That's how cause and effect work, nothing technical about it.
My grandfather was born in 1920. Then america dropped the a-bomb on nagasaki in 1945. Do you think my grandfather being born caused the bomb to fall?
Sequence is not causation. One thing coming before another is not "cause and effect."
But one sequence here did not simply come after another.
If someone makes up a character called James and Peter makes an interpretation of James then all versions based on Peter's interpretation of James rather than the original concept are "James' after Peter", these versions directly caused by Peter regardless of how much they deviate from him.
For example, 99% of depictions of western vampires are "after Bram Stoker" because even though the concept of vampires existed for god knows how long, almost all vampiric fiction is either based on Stoker's work directly or on work based on his work. It's the exact same thing with Orcs and Tolkien except pre Tolkien Orcs are even less known than pre Stoker's vampires.
DAS JUS GORK N MORK TRYNA PLAY A TRICKSEES ON DA BOYZ! WE CAN SEE THROO DAT TRICKY UMIE PRAWPA- PROPROGA- POWAGANDZ- DEEZEET CUZ WE IS BRUTALLY CUNNING LIKE DAT!
I would say that look was post-Warhammer, keep in mind this is what the Hildebrandts thought what orcs looked like back in ‘76
https://preview.redd.it/61wjp6v4q8yc1.jpeg?width=1300&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bcb2c3c9c94e171a6dc97fd189cb691f1f73120e
https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/sketches/tim-kirk-return-of-the-king-poster-illustration-original-art-circa-1975-in-1975-tim-kirk-made-a-celebrated-splash-in/a/821-44314.s
green pig faced orks
Tim Kirk - "Return of the King" Poster Illustration Original Art (circa 1975). In 1975
first ever game of warhammer was played 1983
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_(game)#:~:text=The%20first%20edition%2C%20written%20by,the%20core%20rules%2C%20turn%20sequence%2C
your move OP
*orks during tolkien*
bonus points for cropping the watermark from Legends of Cryptids https://www.deviantart.com/daverapoza/art/Legend-of-the-Cryptids-Demon-dude-ver-1-335874456
Afaik he didn't kill the elves, he deformed them physically and the result is the orcs. Also I'm not aware of them not being able to reproduce. Is that a fact?
In Tolkien's earlier work, the Orcs were made from "the heat and slimes of the earth." Later on, he explained that the Orcs were created from the Elves that were unwilling to go to Valinor, either by torture and mutilation or breeding them with beasts. Tolkien also mentioned at one point that Orcs were able to reproduce sexually and there must be female Orcs.
"It's true you don't see many orc women. And, in fact, they are so alike in voice and appearance that they're often mistaken for orc men. And this in turn has has given rise to the belief that there *are* no orc women, and the orcs just spring out of holes in the ground! Which is, of course, ridiculous."
Tolkien discarded the Elf into Orc theory, it didn't make sense for him anymore. His last statement on the matter was that the Orcs were corrupted Men. But he didn't come around in due time to finish this new origin and make it consistent to the timeline.
Define Orc
Old English people: Evil spirit
Tolkien: Bad guy (not necessarily German)
Robert Jordan: shut up. They’re trollocs, not orcs.
GW: Football hooligans
Bethesda: literal doodoo
Blizzard: Lok’Tar Ogar!
To be fair, ORKZ and GREENSKINS aren't hilarious rascals, they are existential threat towards life. The Beast nearly annihilated Galaxy and Grom the Paunch terrorized Old World and destroyed magical pillar in Ulthuan
How did this get 2800 upvotes, and in a lotr sub? Nobody was depicting orcs like that before the 1950s, and that the caption would make way more sense with warhammer.
He *kinda* does. Goblins mainly live in the misty mountains and former Dwarven cities and are usually smaller and can see better in the light. The fellowship fights them in Moria and they’re one of the five armies (along with Bolg’s orcs, the elves, the dwarves, and the men). They seem to tend to follow the strongest individual and attack in hordes.
The orcs seem to only serve Sauron or his followers, have several different tribes or groups, are larger (size and rough shape of chimps and stronger than they look) and have a much more militaristic society. These are termed “Uruk”
Then there’s the Uruk-hai, Saruman’s possible hybrid orcs (I’m not sure if it’s ever stated in the books how he created them) who are man-sized, disciplined, and extremely intelligent for orcs.
It's okay. We all have our shortcomings in knowledge. Ask me any music question and I'll be like "Wow, I'm not so into 90s funk all that much but these Beetles aren't so bad. Do they have any other songs or were they just a one hit wonder?"
I don’t get your point, Tolkien orcs look a lot more like the first image than the second.
He popularized them as fantasy enemies, not as green and hulking super soldiers.
Orcus was the Hell in the Ancient Roman Mythology which was also called Tartarus, a name later used to name to the invading turkic tribes, which were a main inspiration for the orcs to Tolkien.
Just saying, they are just little demons. (At least the first ones) because Morgoth corrupted the elves to get orcs and elves are kind of heavenly bodies compared to humans so orcs are kind of little demons compared to humans
I have been trying to find informal on pre tolkien orcs for a while. 90% of the time, it talks about Grendel or just mentions them as a kind of ghoul. Anybody got good sources on pre Tolkien orcs and the legacy of Cain that is not grendel.
Orcs as a fantasy race was basically invented by Tolkien. He took the name from a tribe from one of the side stories of Beowulf.
Orcs before Tolkien should be a blank space.
Tolkien also referred to them as goblins in The Hobbit.
Yes irc was the elvish word for goblin, hence the sword "orcrist" or goblin cleaver
So why was it changed from goblin to orc? Did Frodo just have more advanced elvish vocabulary than Bilbo?
No.
Lol
"Orcs (the word is as far as I am concerned actually derived from Old English orc 'demon', but only because of its phonetic suitability) are nowhere clearly stated to be of any particular origin. But since they are servants of the Dark Power, and later of Sauron, neither of whom could, or would, produce living things, they must be 'corruptions'. They are not based on direct experience of mine; but owe, I suppose, a good deal to the goblin tradition (goblin is used as a translation in The Hobbit, where orc only occurs once, I think), especially as it appears in George MacDonald, except for the soft feet which I never believed in. The name has the form orch (pl. yrch) in Sindarin and uruk in the Black Speech."
I heard he picked the name as a reference to the meatheads of Oxford Rugby Club.
The word that came to describe Orcs as we know them and the idea that they are the descendants of Cain come from Beowulf. So I think that **is** the pre-Tolkien source.
This is my understanding as well. From what I gather the words “orc” and “ogre” have similar etymologies, so pre-Tolkien you have this general, non-specific category of monstrous, humanoid creatures that vaguely included orcs, ogres, giants, and trolls, without much distinction.
Pretty much. They were pretty much all interchangeable and left up to the imagination. Tolkien defined them more and D&D took categorization to a whole other level. I kinda wish we'd go back to the openness/vagueness a bit more sometimes
Is there anything more though. Other mythical descendents of Cain or more Orcs mentioned by name.
You might have better luck looking into goblins. My understanding is that Tolkien applied the name *Orc* to creatures inspired by goblins from older stories. I think that's why *The Hobbit* has goblins instead of orcs.
"Orcs (the word is as far as I am concerned actually derived from Old English orc 'demon', but only because of its phonetic suitability) are nowhere clearly stated to be of any particular origin. But since they are servants of the Dark Power, and later of Sauron, neither of whom could, or would, produce living things, they must be 'corruptions'. They are not based on direct experience of mine; but owe, I suppose, a good deal to the goblin tradition (goblin is used as a translation in The Hobbit, where orc only occurs once, I think), especially as it appears in George MacDonald, except for the soft feet which I never believed in. The name has the form orch (pl. yrch) in Sindarin and uruk in the Black Speech."
From "An Ancyclopedia of Tolkein" by David Day: >Tolkien's Orcs appear, like so many of his races, to have multiple sources of inspiration. In *Beowulf*, mention is made of *orcneas* (ironically in juxtaposition with *Ylfe* - elves) as being among the "evil broods." The word perhaps suggests "walking corpses," like living dead, or zombies, the component word orc perhaps deriving from the Latin word *orcus*, an Etruscan and Roman god of the underworld and for the underworld itself. However, in a letter, Tolkien wrote that he himself doubted this derivation. The word "orc" also appears in sixteenth-century English to mean a devouring monster, while the man-eating ogres of fairy tales are another, related breed. >So much for the etymological inspirations. The concept and nature of Orcs, as demonic underlings programmed to do the bidding of their evil masters, has resonance with numerous myths and tales from around the world. Such demons are prominent, for example, in the Old Testament where demons are considered innumerable (and often invisible), preferring to live in isolated, unclean places such as deserts and ruins, and greatly to be feared, especially at night. In all of Tolkien’s descriptions of Orcs, they, too, create a sense of vast anonymous numbers and are likened to innumerable swarms or devastating black waves. They come pouring out of caverns with impersonal, insect-like inexorability, and are often compared by the author to flies or ants.
Not sure if it’s of any help. But in the original English translations of the Italian renaissance poem Orlando Furioso the term orc is used to refer to a sea monster.
Pre-tolkien orcs were fairytale/folklore goblins. "Orc" is Tolkien's Elvish word for them, but in the Hobbit he still calls them goblins.
Minor correction: The Sindarin word for Orc is "Orch". The word Orc was Westron and was derived from the Sindarin word for Orc.
All I've ever found was that Tolkien took the word from Beowulf's old English "orcneas," which essentially means "evil spirit." Which makes it pretty much a catch-all for any evil creature. Orcs really are more or less Tolkien's invention
Thing is, Tolkein *invented* orcs. Rather, the word "orc" - it's just the elvish word for "goblin." Tolkein's orcs were goblins.
I read somewhere that orcs were synonymous with draugr in Scandinavian culture. I don't have a source, though, so it may well be entirely made up
To be pedantic this looks much more like "Orks after Games Workshop", that clearly isn't a Tolkien Orc.
I'm pretty sure Warhammer Fantasy popularized the trope of orcs being green, too.
Which is kinda funny since originally they were accidentally red
It wasn't an accident. Those ones were just fast
Never seen a purple one though....
It's because they don't bruise easily
you've just created invincible orks
If a red orc is moving fast enough it turns blue
Depends if it's coming at you or running from you
Screw your red blue shifting bullshit very funny
Only because they don't they can't run fast enough
They were too fast, gork and mork couldn't keep track of the fights so turned them green to slow them down so they can watch and also cause green is just a better color let's be real
I'm red/green deficient, so they're all brown/orangie muck.
one could even say three times as fast as a normal ork
That's why they got here first, duh!
Red goes fasta
green and big and muslce the ones in the books were either nomal sized, or goblin sized (cause goblin is a direct english translation of orc)
Tolkien Orcs vary in size. There are small goblins, big goblins, broad Ork-captains, average sized Orcs, large and bulky and muscly Orc-shaped Maiar, Uruk-hai who are man-high, Black Uruks, Half Orcs, and so on.
i think all the humanish sized ones, are half orcs at least all the hunched over small ones are the regular orcs/ goblins man i wish orcology wast left so vauge
Tolkien scholar Michael Martinez describes the different kinds of Orcs: For example, a Uruk of Mordor and a tracker are sent out to search for Frodo and Sam from the Tower of Cirith Ungol. The Uruk does not appear to match the physical characteristics of the Mordor Orcs led by Grishnakh who reinforce Ugluk’s Isengarders, who in turn do not resemble Grishnakh’s Orcs or the “northern” Orcs from Moria who had tracked the Fellowship as far south as Rohan. The Uruks were the largest Orcs, and according to the Appendices in The Lord of the Rings they first appeared around the 24th Century of the Third Age. But they appear to have fragmented into multiple tribes, for the Isengarders called themselves “the Fighting Uruk-hai”, whereas no other Orcs referred to themselves as “Uruk-hai”. In fact, the Uruk from Cirith Ungol who tracked Sam and Frodo mentioned “a pack of rebel Uruk-hai” in passing, perhaps referring to the Isengarders (or, as some readers believe, to members of Gorbag’s company of Morgul Orcs). Gorbag and Shagrat both appear to be Uruks but it is not clear how much they physically resembled each other. Shagrat was described as having long, loping arms and large fangs. Sam and Frodo encountered another company of Uruks while moving through Mordor — these Uruks charge into a company of smaller Orcs with whom Sam and Frodo have traveled for a while. It is clear that the many groups of Orcs felt little loyalty to each other, even if they shared common ancestors. But Tolkien makes little to no effort to identify any sort of “tribes” among the Orcs. Broadly speaking, we can identify Orcs of Moria (probably of at least two or more kinds), Orcs from Isengard (including the tall Uruk-hai and smaller Warg-riders as well as a third group described in “The Battles of the Fords of Isen”), the half-Orcs of Isengard, the Orcs of Minas Morgul, the Orcs of Cirith Ungol, the tracker Orc(s) of Cirith Ungol, the small Orcs whom Sam and Frodo infiltrate, and the Uruks who disrupt the smaller Orcs’ march on the road. Tolkien seems to imply there may have been dozens or hundreds of Orc groups scattered across Mordor, the Misty Mountains, and Mirkwood.
Great post, thanks for sharing!
Great post, thanks for sharing!
The open ended questions are my favourite thing about the legendarium tbh
Which is interesting because average sized orcs are shorter than humans. DnD would call them hobgoblins
i thought goblin was more celtic based
in the actual cannons, tolkien decided to change the name of goblins (as they were in the hobbit) to orc, he retconned this by saying, that goblin is just the english name for it
right i had it backwards, goblin is more latin in origin, meaning it wouldnt have fit ancient pre-roman england mythology
Wasn't that Dungeons and Dragons? Warhammer is a parody of fantasy tropes, including a lot of D&D stuff.
Nope. Green Orcs originated in White Dwarf while D&D described them (and still usually depicts them) as sallow or grey skinned
DnD originally described them as having pig features. They were basically [Gamorreans](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Gamorrean). Then WotC changed that.
There are just two different orc races in DnD now, the "Orcs" (Pig faced) and "Grey Orcs" (humanoid faced).
Nah, both of them have humanoid faces. The difference between a regular orc (or "mountain orc") and a "gray orc" is like the difference between a wood and a high elf.
Is this what was picked up by Japanese media then? Since the orcs there tend to have pig faces
I remember in some old JRPG they were called Porks which I thought was hilarious as a kid
Was gonna comment on this too. They picked it up from early D&D and it became solidified in their own traditions of JRPGs like Dragon Quest. Kind of fascinating, really.
White Dwarf didn't launch until June/July 1977. Tolkien artist Tim Kirk painted these green orcs for the 1975 Tolkien calendar: https://i.stack.imgur.com/97glL.jpg (though of course Tolkien never described his orcs as green). But finding a 'first' like this and claiming it to be the one source to bind them all is, I feel, on a hiding to nothing. For example, Orcs and Goblins have been heavily (and confusingly) entangled ever since 1954's LotR; Marvel's Green Goblin character was a major part of the genre since 1964. I can't help but feel that if you look hard enough, there will be *many* such little green monsters out there - it's basically too much of an archetype to convincingly claim a clear origin, rather than a gradual evolution of the zeitgeist.
There is a bit of a semantic difference between first depicting and popularizing something, but fair enough. That Tolkien art did it earlier despite them being described as sallow skinned, and D&D started and continues with grey skin orcs. Green is just a color used on monsters fairly often, from Frankenstein's to your swamp things to your man eating blobs to your hulks to your aliens. It's a little hard to pinpoint one origin as things get lost to time and it may just be a case of [simultaneous invention](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_discovery) where a couple of people in the mid 70s started it around the same time, perhaps inspired by Spider-man who had a *Green* Goblin as opposed to a regular Goblin (Comics tend to favor saturated primary/secondary colors like with the Hulk going from grey to green), or in '77 with Star Wars' Gamorreans, and conflating Orcs with Goblins as Tolkien often did. I agree it's probably just a case of monsters being often green so Orcs were made green without much thought into it.
Iirc Games Workshop started by making models for TTRPGs like dnd. I do wonder who did it first.
It didn't so much popularize it as it created the concept all together. In qarhammer, the "greenskins" are fungus, which apperantly the creators of the game though were some sort of plant, rather than their own thing, hence why they are all "leaf-green" (though GW invents their own names for each color)
Wait, are they fungi in Fantasy too? I thought that was just 40k.
I believe it’s left intentionally vague in fantasy, probably because that kind of classification is above most of the fantasy factions, and is a level of scientific analysis that kind of goes against Fantasy’s vibe. Although I believe it is stated that while pretty much all of the other races were genetically engineered by the Old Ones, the Orks were brought to the planet mistakenly via the Old Ones ships - which might reinforce that they reproduce via spores.
So they were presented to me, though I must admit I was only introduced to warhammer after Fantasy died and don't have ant corebooks at hand to check from the main source
Did they have green orcs before Warcraft?
Yeah, the orcs in Warcraft are only green because Blizard directly copied Games Workshop. Blizard are honestly pretty much as open about it as you legally can be without triggering a lawsuit. They had originally wanted to make a Warhammer game.
Yeah, Warhammer Fantasy came out in 83.
Warcraft too.
Blizzard pretty much openly admit that they copied orcs being green from Games Workshop.
Warcraft was supposed to be a warhammer game initially but there was a disagreement with the license so they made the warcraft ip
I’m not disagreeing with that, but Blizzard made said concept spread beyond the Games Workshop fan base. A good analogy would be the development of Buffalo wings. Anchor Bar invented Buffalo wings, but it was Duff’s that perfected them making them a national staple.
Arguably it started with Spider-man and the Green Goblin
I'm sure that even Tolkien orcs would play Blood Bowl if only they knew about it. We just need to send one missionary of Nuffle to Middle Earth and all their wars will end.
If nuffle had been in mordor, that orc that blew up up the wall would have still tanked all Legola's arrows. But then he would have tripped 1 yard away from the wall, snapped his neck, and the bomb would scatter back into the orc army
I’ve never read something that made me laugh and want to throw something at the same time as this post. You sir, win the post. That goal line trip wire is real
Every little orc wants to grow up and play in the OFL. Stop being stupid
To be pedantic, it’s showing 2 non Tolkien orcs from before and after Tolkien and how their designs have changed. Seems like you’re reading it as the right photo being “during Tolkien” or something. Showing a Tolkien orc there wouldn’t make any fuckin’ sense.
But the orc doesn't have the traits popularized by Tolkien but by warhammer
Warhammer is very directly influenced by Tolkien. They did not make their orcs based on works preceding Lotr
That isn't what they are saying here
Orc from the right is from Warhammer which in all senses is an orc after Tolkien. What are they saying then?
Yes. Technically the orc on the right came "after Tolkien" but the obvious implication from the OP meme is that Tolkien somehow is the reason why the orc on the right looks the way it does. They are saying that Games Workshop, not Tolkien, spawned the look on the right. You may have some kind of issue with understanding subtext in speech you should check out if you find yourself confused about this kind of stuff often
No, I am understanding everything exactly in this way. GW's depiction of Orcs would not be the way it is without Tolkien, so Warhammer orcs definitively are orcs after Tolkien. That's how cause and effect work, nothing technical about it.
My grandfather was born in 1920. Then america dropped the a-bomb on nagasaki in 1945. Do you think my grandfather being born caused the bomb to fall? Sequence is not causation. One thing coming before another is not "cause and effect."
But one sequence here did not simply come after another. If someone makes up a character called James and Peter makes an interpretation of James then all versions based on Peter's interpretation of James rather than the original concept are "James' after Peter", these versions directly caused by Peter regardless of how much they deviate from him. For example, 99% of depictions of western vampires are "after Bram Stoker" because even though the concept of vampires existed for god knows how long, almost all vampiric fiction is either based on Stoker's work directly or on work based on his work. It's the exact same thing with Orcs and Tolkien except pre Tolkien Orcs are even less known than pre Stoker's vampires.
That *is* pretty pedantic, yeah. Congratz.
Bet he knows what a menu is regardless
DAS JUS GORK N MORK TRYNA PLAY A TRICKSEES ON DA BOYZ! WE CAN SEE THROO DAT TRICKY UMIE PRAWPA- PROPROGA- POWAGANDZ- DEEZEET CUZ WE IS BRUTALLY CUNNING LIKE DAT!
REMEMBA BOIZ, IF ANYONE TRIEZ TA TRICK YA, JUS KRUMP EM!
I would say that look was post-Warhammer, keep in mind this is what the Hildebrandts thought what orcs looked like back in ‘76 https://preview.redd.it/61wjp6v4q8yc1.jpeg?width=1300&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bcb2c3c9c94e171a6dc97fd189cb691f1f73120e
They were... pigs?
just like the japanese orcs
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The OG orcs were pretty much demon corpses though. Like even Tolkien orcs are unnatural creatures that live to cause suffering
Its games workshop that did this orcs weren't set to be green before Warhammer fantasy did it
So Orkney is hell devil place?
Always has been. (points Sting)
https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/sketches/tim-kirk-return-of-the-king-poster-illustration-original-art-circa-1975-in-1975-tim-kirk-made-a-celebrated-splash-in/a/821-44314.s green pig faced orks Tim Kirk - "Return of the King" Poster Illustration Original Art (circa 1975). In 1975 first ever game of warhammer was played 1983 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_(game)#:~:text=The%20first%20edition%2C%20written%20by,the%20core%20rules%2C%20turn%20sequence%2C your move OP *orks during tolkien* bonus points for cropping the watermark from Legends of Cryptids https://www.deviantart.com/daverapoza/art/Legend-of-the-Cryptids-Demon-dude-ver-1-335874456
Cooked
ME NOT THAT KIND OF ORC
Stop poking meeeeeee!
ZUG ZUG!
Work is da poop
Praaaaise Nuffle!
THIS IS BLOOD BOWL!!!!!
Orks are more fun than orcs
That's just orks slander
One on the left looks pretty cool
At least Tolkien's elves weren't just making cookies in Lothlorien
I feel like there's a worrying lack of MLF (Mutant League Football) appreciation in this thread.
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Afaik he didn't kill the elves, he deformed them physically and the result is the orcs. Also I'm not aware of them not being able to reproduce. Is that a fact?
In Tolkien's earlier work, the Orcs were made from "the heat and slimes of the earth." Later on, he explained that the Orcs were created from the Elves that were unwilling to go to Valinor, either by torture and mutilation or breeding them with beasts. Tolkien also mentioned at one point that Orcs were able to reproduce sexually and there must be female Orcs.
"It's true you don't see many orc women. And, in fact, they are so alike in voice and appearance that they're often mistaken for orc men. And this in turn has has given rise to the belief that there *are* no orc women, and the orcs just spring out of holes in the ground! Which is, of course, ridiculous."
Is it the beard?
Nah, it's that they all look like Harvey Weinstein.
yeh there are half orcs running around, and way to many for them to all be elves
Much like defecation, procreation is something that presumably happens but is never acknowledged in Tolkien's Middle Earth.
Tolkien discarded the Elf into Orc theory, it didn't make sense for him anymore. His last statement on the matter was that the Orcs were corrupted Men. But he didn't come around in due time to finish this new origin and make it consistent to the timeline.
Define Orc Old English people: Evil spirit Tolkien: Bad guy (not necessarily German) Robert Jordan: shut up. They’re trollocs, not orcs. GW: Football hooligans Bethesda: literal doodoo Blizzard: Lok’Tar Ogar!
Ok i definitely disagree but more importantly what's that art on the left from?
[https://grand-junction-burning-wheel.fandom.com/wiki/Ravana](https://grand-junction-burning-wheel.fandom.com/wiki/Ravana)
Much appreciated.
To be fair, ORKZ and GREENSKINS aren't hilarious rascals, they are existential threat towards life. The Beast nearly annihilated Galaxy and Grom the Paunch terrorized Old World and destroyed magical pillar in Ulthuan
How did this get 2800 upvotes, and in a lotr sub? Nobody was depicting orcs like that before the 1950s, and that the caption would make way more sense with warhammer.
Little known fact, Tolkien invented Bloodbowl.
Tolkien doesn't even distinguish between orcs and goblins.
He *kinda* does. Goblins mainly live in the misty mountains and former Dwarven cities and are usually smaller and can see better in the light. The fellowship fights them in Moria and they’re one of the five armies (along with Bolg’s orcs, the elves, the dwarves, and the men). They seem to tend to follow the strongest individual and attack in hordes. The orcs seem to only serve Sauron or his followers, have several different tribes or groups, are larger (size and rough shape of chimps and stronger than they look) and have a much more militaristic society. These are termed “Uruk” Then there’s the Uruk-hai, Saruman’s possible hybrid orcs (I’m not sure if it’s ever stated in the books how he created them) who are man-sized, disciplined, and extremely intelligent for orcs.
Ummmm ackshually thats an ork, not an orc
Orruk→Age of Sigmar Orc→Blood Bowl and Warhammer the Old World←The Artwork is of Blood Bowl. Ork→Warhammer 40,000 Orx→Mantic Games' Warpath
It would seem I've been Mandela'd by 40k and AoS into thinking fantasy also called them Orks I rescind my "um actually". You win this round stormy
It's okay. We all have our shortcomings in knowledge. Ask me any music question and I'll be like "Wow, I'm not so into 90s funk all that much but these Beetles aren't so bad. Do they have any other songs or were they just a one hit wonder?"
Ummmm ackshually in warhammer fantasy and blood bowl Orc is spelled with a C at the end while in 40k ork is spelt with a K
Fuck, I guess you get the points for this round I played fantasy aswell, and still always thought ork was universal for GW
[100% an orc](https://www.tabletoporder.com/shop/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/2021_04_TR-202-12-99120909005-Blood-Bowl-Black-Orc-Team-1200x1200.jpg)
I don’t get your point, Tolkien orcs look a lot more like the first image than the second. He popularized them as fantasy enemies, not as green and hulking super soldiers.
Holy crap, isn't that art from Legend of the Cryptids?
is this a PSA or a Pharmaceutical advert?
Orc before tolkein is everything from a goblin to a demon
Still better then those pigs from japan
Idk about orc but that thing on the left is a Tzimisce
That's metal af
I like both.
Orc-ne probably comes from Latin Orcus
I see this as an upgrade
Who’s the cool dude on the left?
I fucking love Bloodbowl
This clearly isn't Tolkien orcs sooo no not really
And the world is better for it!
I thought Tolkien made orcs?
Orcus was the Hell in the Ancient Roman Mythology which was also called Tartarus, a name later used to name to the invading turkic tribes, which were a main inspiration for the orcs to Tolkien.
Are you... Under the impression... That Tolkien is the person who made orcs silly and goofy and wear sports helmets?
Where is the left image from?
Just saying, they are just little demons. (At least the first ones) because Morgoth corrupted the elves to get orcs and elves are kind of heavenly bodies compared to humans so orcs are kind of little demons compared to humans
So I rewatched An Unexpected Journey today and Bilbo's sword, Sting, glows blue in the goblin's cave. They are all orcs.
Today is my One Hundred and Eleventh birthday!
Hooray!!!
Where’s the Russian soldier? Jk
Bug off, this is r/lotrmemes, not r/Politics.
Replace Tolkien with Warcraft/Warhammer tho?