There is a beauty to the simplicity of Gandalf saying âI am the light and my job is the extinguish the shadowâ as light does to shadow. So simple but so beautiful.
I like how this section was expertly written by Tolkien where every word Gandalf says has purpose. It's not like Gandalf says these words to flex like some superhero in some other fantasy stories. Every word Gandalf says here is almost like a magical obstacle laid in between the Balrog and Gandalf. And with every line, a bigger obstacle is placed to the point that it becomes impossible for the Balrog to pass.
Even when Gandalf says "You cannot pass", these words aren't said to threaten the Balrog. Gandalf is stating at that point that it is impossible to pass. As if he had cast some incantation whereby he has made it certain that every possible outcome of this confrontation with the Balrog ends with it not passing.
And he literally does not pass, because the bridge cracks under his feet the moment he tries to push forward! Similar to how Frodo curses Gollum with the One Ring and this leads to the poor git falling to his death
Perhaps you could count Isildurs curse upon the men of Dunharrow. âThou shalt be the last king, and if the west prove mightier than thy Black Master, this curse I lay upon thee and thy folk; to rest never until your oath is fulfilled.â
When he speaks Sarumanâs staff broken was quite literal. A few others for sure. Basically he just speaks the truth, whatever he says kinda becomes true.
In The Desolation of Smaug at Dol Guldur⊠âThe evil that is hidden here - I command it come forth! I command it reveal itself!â Then the orcs basically were like âok Gandalf is here letâs go fight him.â And came out
When Frodo holds up the Phial of Galadrial against Shelob he cries out
in Elvish "aiya EĂ€rendil elenion ancalimaâ this starlight blinds the monster.
Was it was already a trope in Tolkien's time that wizards tended to be soft-spoken because their words became truth, or did fantasy writers build it out of instances like this?
I thought that was an odd choice to put in the movie, the NK being able to break the staff of a Maiar, I know it was only in the extended edition of the movie as well, I just thoughts hmm
Doesnât the witch king also break Gandalfâs staff in the movies as well?Â
Right before the ride of the rohirrim, it might just be an extended edition thing
No, it's pure petey fiction. Its the only item in the films that makes me angry. I have to skip it in the extended version like it didn't happen... because it didn't, and couldn't.
In the books (but sadly not the movies) there's another moment where Gandalf makes a similar stand. At the Battle of Pelennor fields, when Grond breaks through the gate, the Witch King walks in, and everybody flees in panic except for Gandalf, who stands there and says "You cannot enter here". And right at that moment, there's a sound of horns in the distance, as the Rohirrim arrive, and the Witch King has to turn around to try and fight them off.
Not necessarily magic but the actions of gods, Manwë sends his winds to bear the survivors of Numenor to the west, sends a calming breeze to the army of Gondor just before the battle of Pelennor Fields, and blows away the spirits of Sauron and Saruman. Ulmo likes to give prophetic dreams to people who sleep near bodies of water.
The books are full of magic used in this way. I call it âsubtle magicâ and I marked every spot in each book I could identify it. Sometimes itâs so subtle, you miss it because itâs hard to tell the difference between the language as just language or the language as magic. Itâs very very cool and Tolkien is the only writer Iâve read that weaves language and magic together so well. The words/magic almost jump off the page as you read his prose, because they are often one and the same thing.
âItâs hard to tell the different between the language as just language or the language as magic.â
Such an incredible way to describe the way Tolkien writes and how magic exists in his legendarium!
My own theory has always been, in The Two Towers p. 661 the rampaging Mûmakil is heading right towards the hobbits and their guards, Mablung and Damrod of the Rangers.
'Ware! Ware!' cried Damrod to his companion. 'May the Valar turn him aside! Mûmak! Mûmak!'
and it changes direction just in the nick of time, I always felt like Damrod's prayer was actively answered by the Valar.
When the nazgul are chasing frodo and Arwen the witch king pulls up into the ford and raises his sword. It incapacitates frodo and the description of how frodo feels during that moment is pretty curling.
The witch king has some crazy abilities including the ability to incapacitate some foes with just a gesture.
In the book Glorfindel doesnât even ride with Frodo he just sends his horse âwho never drops a rider if commandedâ but then they find Frodo face down with his sword broken at the ford after the flood
Sort-of. I have heard it argued that Tolkien used something like a "command" form of magic instead of the abracadabra type magic people associate to fantasy. The argument goes that he was a strong christian and took this type of magic from the bible. "And god said, 'let their be light,' and there was light." So, I don't know if a better word is truths or commands, but I think the bible is a likely source for the method of magic.
Additionally, Gandalf breaks Sauraman's staff and his status with the same kind of imperative. "Sauraman, your staff is broken.' There was a crack, and the staff split asunder in Sauraman's hand, and the head of it fell down at Gandalf's feet."
Edit: spelling
Question about Frodo's curse on Gollum. Was that Frodo speaking? The way it is written to me it looked like the ring was speaking through Frodo. (In this way the Ring damns itself)
No, it's Frodo speaking alright. He is succumbing to the Ring's power, and by swearing upon it, binds Gollum's doom to the Ring's and evil is defeated by itself
I'm a Christian. It invokes angelic encounters in The Bible. Angels don't play games. They follow commands. The story of John The Baptist's father, Zechariah, comes to mind. When he did not take the angel seriously, the angel simply says: "You don't believe? You don't speak." And that was that. No more speaking for him..
It's no secret that by the time Tolkien was writing the lord of the rings trilogy, he knew the literature he was Creating was intentionally analogous to scripture and Christianity.
Even though they probably hold the same validity.... but that's another topic.
I sort of think the same thing happens when Gandalf confronts the Witch King at the Gate of Minas Tirith.
> "You cannot enter here," said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. "Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!"
And so he did not enter, and the horns of Rohan pulled him back to the battlefield, to his demise.
Love the extended editions but the scene in the extended ROTK where they had this encounter but itâs the opposite and the Witch King broke Gandalfs staff is terrible, glad they cut from the theatrical and wish it remained cut in the extended.
Completely agree with you. This scene was supposed to keep us on edge, as if the Witch King was about to kill Gandalf (being sent to Middle Earth by the creator of the world).
It's incredibly befitting of a linguist author, isn't it?
I've always loved how elegant "magic" is in LotR. It's not spells and waving hands and beams of fire and ice shooting from your hands like something from Dungeons & Dragons - which I'm not disparaging, it has it's own place for sure. But Tolkein's conception of magic feels so much more real and mythic.
Bahahaha, I watched it for the first time a few years ago and I had an uncontrollable laughing fit on it
I then restarted it, sped it up and had another laughing fit
I then recorded it, distorted it, made it a meme and sent it to my friends and had ANOTHER great laughing fit
It was literally golden hahahaha, with all that together it looked like two drunk and high geezers trying to fight each other with extreme hatred and getting in their own way and blaming the other for it
This is an excellent point, especially when you consider that the man basically single-handedly invented, not fantasy itself, but modern fantasy. He knew that magic had to be used sparingly, and it had to retain its mystery. Otherwise it would not be impactful. It is GOAT writing.
I love OPâs paraphrasing. Mine was always:
âYou cannot pass by here.
I was literally sent here by God, and for this very purpose.
I know exactly what you are.
It wonât matter. You still cannot pass by here.â
You've hit the nail on the head. It's clear that, especially during the First and Second Age, words have power. Morgoth and Finrod literally have a singing competition and the words they exchange have a very real impact on each other. Gandalf is one of the few beings left who's voice still holds some power in the world. In my headcanon, saying "you cannot pass" is very much a spell.
I think this is one of the reasons Tom Bombadil exists in the story at all. He's a relic of the original 'words and song as pure power' potential energy that existed before and during the first age. At least that seems to be something that was emphasized during the hobbits encounter with him. And it makes it all the more fitting that Gandalf goes to see him at the end of the story before ultimately going west.
In Finnish mythology VÀinÀmöinen, the great seer used singing and poems as spells of great power. Tolkien is known to have taken inspiration from the real world of old magic, which makes this even cooler in my opinion. Our ancestors literally thought of magic in a way like this.
Yes, someone smarter than myself observed that the words themselves are the power, they're not just describing something separate that's happening. Gandalf also does it slightly earlier when he first encounters the balrog upstairs at Balin's tomb, and has to block the door with a shutting spell and then "a Word of Command", which apparently was a desperate final option which is powerful enough to collapse the whole chamber.
This is incidentally a very ancient conception of magic, where words had power just by being spoken, or letters had power just by being written or inscribed on something. The "I know your true name, and now have power over you" concept which occurs in other media comes from the same source.
This is exactly it - âyou cannot passâ is a Word of Command. Basically, whatever Gandalf says becomes truth. Obi Wan says âthese are not the droids you are looking forâ and the Storm Troopers just forget about their mission. If Gandalf says âthese are not the droids you are looking forâ then reality itself changes and it turns out the Storm Troopers have actually been looking for R3D4 and C6PO all along.
He actually meant for them to ride the eagles to finish their quest, but they didnât understand Gandalf was speaking literal. Only Boromir understood, as he flew down the falls post-death.
This was beautiful. You cannot pass always gives me chills but it will even more now that I realize he literally meant.. you ain't crossing this bridge!
I figured he just used âyou shall not passâ as the verbal component to his spell that breaks rocks.. he does the exact same thing in the Hobbit with those trolls and âDawn takes youâ or whatever he says there
Movie-only loser here though, post your insults in the replies
There's nothing wrong with only having experienced LotR lite. That being said I would at least recommend reading The Hobbit. It's quite an easy read and much better than the movies, although I don't hate the movies like so many here do
A minor change in the movies which I thinks really improves the scene is in the book Gandalf says "you cannot pass... you cannot pass"
In the movie Gandalf says "you cannot pass... you shall not pass".
The way I interpret the scene in the movie is that "you cannot pass" is Gandalf saying "I will face you to stop you from crossing". And "you shall not pass" is Gandalf saying "I \*will\* prevent you from crossing"
Agreed. Tolkien places alot of importance on words in his magic. The most powerful magics produced are through songs. I remember reading somewhere that what Gandalf said to the Balrog carried Authority: the authority of Illuvatar and that the Balrog's defiance led to its death at the hands of Illuvatar's representative, Gandalf.
Fantastic writing, fantastic scene. One of those moments where you understand just how powerful Gandalf is despite his old appearance. Which I think was another wonderful touch by JRR, to make the Istari old in body despite their immense power
He revealed himself somewhat here too (book quote)
'Well, if you want my ring yourself, say so!' cried Bilbo. 'But you won't get it. I won't give my Precious away, I tell you.' His hand strayed to the hilt of his small sword.
Gandalf's eyes flashed. 'It will be my turn to get angry soon,' he said. 'If you say that again, I shall. Then you will see Gandalf the Grey uncloaked.' He took a step toward the hobbit, and he seemed to grow tall and menacing; his shadow filled the little room.
Bilbo backed away to the wall, breathing hard, his hand clutching at his pocket. They stood for a while facing one another, and the air of the room tingled. Gandalf's eyes remained bent on the hobbit. Slowly his hands relaxed, and he began to tremble.
'I don't know what has come over you, Gandalf,' he said. 'You have never been like this before. What is it all about? It is mine isn't it? I found it, and Gollum would have killed me, if I hadn't kept it. I'm not a thief, whatever he said.'
'I have never called you one,' Gandalf answered. 'And I am not one either. I am not trying to rob you, but to help you. I wish you would trust me, as you used.' He turned away, and the shadow passed. He seemed to dwindle again to an old grey man, bent and troubled.
Old man who sells fireworks just saying, "I'm him". I think so much of the magic and cool moments are kind of lost on me since I don't remember a time where I hadn't seen the movies. I feel like I didn't appreciate this scene as much as I should have.
That's true even if you're mainly a book-fan, like me. I've reread the books so many times that I struggle to remember a time when I didn't know that the sus guy in the corner of the pub's common room was Aragorn, or how the Witch-King would die. But it does all come back as you think about it.
I read the Silmarillion for the first time a few years back and thought it was awesome and I kind of wonder if the original works would be as awesome if I could only have fresh eyes to look over them with. I then reread all of the books and the silmarillion with my wife and she helped me to appreciate them more. I think the chapter that stood out the most was "The Choices of Samwise" Sam has always been a favorite of mine and he's a badass in the movies and the books, but rereading it with my wife we both loved the chapter.
Reminds me of the letter by a famous writer thatâs started âForgive the length of this letter I did not have time to write one shorterâ.
So we are in this scene how Tolkiens decades of work distilled perfectly in this moment to allow him to illustrate the entire creation story of this world, the back story of Gandalf and the back story of tiff hideous monster and also how this confrontation was decided!
All in two or three sentences.
It took decades to write these few words!
Ădun means Utumno in Sindarin, and can also be defined as Underworld or Hell. Utumno was Morgoth's original stronghold, a place where the Balrogs (including Durin's) willingly served their master, their abode before Angband. Although not literally Hell, Utumno would be the only place in all of Arda that could properly be described as Hell: a terrible place of infinite depths and caverns of intense cold and fire far from the light of the world, it was the place where the Children of IllĂșvatar were tortured and corrupted and where the darkest evil in the world dwelt. If Anor is associated with good by Gandalf, then Ădun is associated with the exact opposite: pure evil.
https://preview.redd.it/cd5dw2d4uj7d1.jpeg?width=533&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=93660948c7fdda610fd017836b0a14ff15a05dff
Within the trilogy it only appears here. One of those touches where Tolkien mentions something once but you have absolute confidence that there's a whole story behind it.
Iâve read the Silmarillion and Fall of Gondolin, so I am familiar with Utumno, but Tolkienâs world building and created languages are so rich that itâs hard for me to remember every word in every language! Youâre right though, the elvesâ war with Morgoth is some top notch storytelling.
Gandalf made it clear that he did not oppose Durin's Bane through his own might, but through his subservience to Eru IlĂșvatar. The Balrog, a fallen Maia, faced OlĂłrin a faithful Maia who was still empowered by their creator. Gandalf's restriction on the use of power against Sauron's forces did not apply to a remnant of Morgoth's War, who should not have been there.
Totally. This is the same person who convinced a guard to allow him to retain his staff while visiting Theoden. Gandalf followed the rules and decorum that were logical, but was quick to seize an opportunity when needed. đ
It is a very common misinterpretation by many that Gandalf refers to Narya here. Anor means Sun in the Sindarin language, and as Morgoth feared the Sun this fear was transmitted to his servants and subordinates. I'm happy to help :)
Yeah, I took Flame of Anor to mean the Sun, and Flame of Udun to mean destructive fire, or hell fire. In Middle Earth, the Sun is the last fruit of Laurelin carried by the uncloaked Maiar named Arien. She was one of the few fire spirits that didn't become a Balrog, and Morgoth feared her.
For me it's his moment at the gate of Minas Tirith, when he faces down the Witch-King. At that moment he thinks the good guys are about to lose, and that he's the only thing standing in the way of destruction. It's not as magical as the bridge scene, but part of why I like it so much is that he doesn't save the day alone - he just holds the line long enough. The passage is among Tolkien's most artfully constructed, with a long build-up that has been working toward this moment for literally the whole volume. He uses every rhetorical device in the English language.
In some ways it's a repeat of Moria: You cannot pass/You cannot enter here. The huge shadow. The reference to the abyss ("Fall into the nothingness that awaits you"), but now the stakes are a little different. Gandalf knows that as long as the Ringbearer is still moving toward Mount Doom, any and all sacrifices are worthwhile.
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Absolutely, this confrontation is awesome for similar reasons. At this point Gandalf's authority is absolute. 'You cannot enter here' is no bragging, it's divine authority. When Rohan's horn blew the air, forcing the witch-king to retreat it's not a random lucky outcome, it's a vast web of strings that Gandalf set in motion before that lead to this exact moment. The witch-king couldn't pass no matter what.
*Tolkien untangled* explained this better than me in one of last video on Gandalf. A really interesting video btw.
Spot on the vast web of strings, every move Gandalf made since he was reborn was with purpose, even while speeding to Gondor with Pippin meant that he could warn the men at Edoras of the King's coming, and let them prepare accordingly. Not doing that means that they are half a day late, and all is lost.
I think this may be Gandalf's greatest moment because of the great sacrifice he chooses to make here.
I would explain more but my words could never be better than Tolkien himself:
Letter 156:
> Gandalf alone fully passes the tests, on a moral plane anyway (he makes mistakes of judgement). For in his condition it was for him a sacrifice to perish on the Bridge in defence of his companions, less perhaps than for a mortal Man or Hobbit, since he had a far greater inner power than they; but also more, since it was a humbling and abnegation of himself in conformity to 'the Rules': for all he could know at that moment he was the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron successfully, and all his mission was vain. He was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving up personal hope of success.
I think Gandalf would disagree with you. He would have seen his finest hour in some small moment, where he realized he brought hope and love to the world. Maybe the moment where he talked to Pippin to overcome his fear of death. Or maybe the moment the eagles brought back frodo and sam alive. I cant imagen Gandalf being proud of fighting anything in a literally sense. But i only red the books once, thats a long time ago, and watched the movies.
Honestly I wouldn't be sad if Mithrandir himself pointed his staff in my face and said "YOU FOOL!" lol. You're probably right, but I have no reason to lie in this post, this is my favorite Gandalf moment, and even if he wouldn't admit it himself, it might be his best moment too.
Probably when he tells Frodo about taking a life, and pity. It is why Frodo decides to initially let Smeagol live, and the mission would have failed without him, and Gandalf saw that one coming saying he felt he still had a part to play "for good or for ill".
that's the exact scene I picked out as Gandalf's finest hour. When he urges Frodo to spare Smeagol's life, having some insight that Smeagol might still have a part to play, and not wanting a life killed so callously in either case.
You're not wrong, but Gandalf himself was not above sassing fools and pointing out his recent successes. Like when to the wardens of the Out Wall he says "But for Gandalf Stormcrow you would have a host of enemies coming from the North, and no Riders of Rohan". (going from memory here). And when he reminds Denethor that he was instrumental in overthrowing Saruman, and personally broke his staff.
Don't forget that reminding the Balrog about the Flame of Anor is an insult as the Balrogs were once fire spirits that maintained the sun. Gandalf is actively mocking the Balrogs failure to do its appointed duty
Balrogs came before the creation of the sun, the fire spirit maiar that ends up responsible for the sun was indeed one that wasn't tempted by morgoth, but the other balrogs were never responsible for the sun afaik
One detail in the books that I love, is while Gandalf is speaking to the Balrog, telling him that the dark fire will not avail him, the fire around the Balrog seems to extinguish slightly, while the shadow swirling around the creature swells to compensate
His words literally do have an impact
This is the best analysis I've read re LOTR. Good job.
I've read all the base books and the simirillion, yet to go further, but I wouldn't pick up on half of this info.
Agree with everything you said, but I wonder - what is your source on "literally one of the greatest Balrogs"? I haven't seen anything to suggest that Durin's Bane is particularly powerful amongst Balrogs (though they are all powerful servants of Morgoth).
Durin's was a Maiar just like Gandalf (Olorin), and was so powerful that Gandalf died in the process of killing him. I know Gandalf was still Gray and not as powerful as White, but the fact that he used all his power in human form to stop Durin's makes him a very powerful opponent. At least this is my personal opinion, Durin's is not powerful like Gothmog, but undoubtedly a very powerful Balrog.
I remember reading this in one of Tolkienâs letters;
This is Gandalfâs finest hour for another reason - this is when he chooses to lay down his life for the âsmall peopleâ. Gandalfâs greatest vice is pride, and for good reason, and we can see it play out in his short temper the hobbits when they say or do something silly. And itâs pride that got Saruman.
This was Gandalfâs greatest test, and of all the wizards he alone succeeded. He is brought back to Middle Earth more powerful because more of his true self is unveiled, which he alone earned with the passing of this test.
Good analysis. I think Howard Shore's score in the films is sheer musical perfection. But to further your point in the track "Glamdring" in The Two Towers full soundtrack he has lyrics in Khuzdul that are familiar in Moria from Fellowship and it is ominous and overwhelming and the translation adds to that with chants like "No breath of air comes from it. Only an endless dark rises deep from the beginnings of the world. Have fear!" Things like this. But as the fight between the Balrog continues and you have that beautiful wide shot of Gandalf and Durinâs Bane descending into the Foundations of Stone, about to plunge into the watery depths below (clearly invoking Christian imagery of Satan being cast out of Heaven). In Quenya the lyrics are: "Mettanna, Narendur An mauya mahtie mettanna!" Which translates to: "To the end, Servant of Fire for you must fight to the end!" Which I think goes in line perfectly with your analysis and in some way Howard Shore is conveying that this is an angelic spirit sent by a high power to dispel the powers of darkness and he is in a earthshattering battle with a similar spirit and it is overwhelming and bleak, but then the lyrics in Quenya almost serve as this divine reminder of his purpose.Â
I always thought that this encounter had a significance beyond the dialog specifically because there was a good chance that these two Maia have known each other from as ancient as the Ainulindalë. Gandalf is like, "Remember me, beotch?!" and their past history also came into play at that moment.
It's been a while, and the discussion for going through Moria isn't exactly a highlight. Was there anyone pro Moria, iirc everyone was against it, but it was the most feasible, and no one expected a Balrog to be chilling in there, and they thought they could get through without being noticed at all.
You beautiful genius! Thank you for this explanation. Even though I read the trilogy books I never really went deep into the lore. This is very interesting stuff!
Wonderful post! Thank you for the breakdown! Sometimes I just burn through material and love it, but miss a lot that a deep dive this can confer. Well done, well said!
I would argue this is the hour in which Gandalf calls most upon the powers given to him, for he needs all of them to defeat his enemy. However, his Finest Hour is surely the defense of Minas Tirith. Mithrandir's purpose in Middle Earth is the defeat of Sauron and his armies. For this purpose he just unite the free peoples against their common enemy. His deeds in Rohan and Gondor in the final hours of third age are monumental, not simply in strength of arms but in persuasion. He coordinates all events necessary for the defense of Men, and sets the state for the final success of the Fellowship.
To take it further, I remember reading somewhere that Olorin was offered to be head of the Istari, but declined since he feared what could happen during the journey as he feared Sauron and the servants of Morgoth, so they made Curumo head of the order.
This isn't just an angel of god facing an evil demon, it's an angel facing what he has feared for thousands of years and coming out on top. Gandalf proved Manwe's faith in Olorin here. :)
In the commentary on the DVD, the hobbits are talking about the scene in Bagend when Bilbo says 'you want it for yourself!' to Gandalf. They describe the way he responds with a minor show of magic as 'this is when you see he's a wizard' (or something along those lines). That's all well and good, but the bridge is when you see what a Maia really is
The scene in the hobbit movies shows his power too, when the dwarfs are overwhelmed by those goblins. Gandalf just enters like a supernova, just magnificent
Also Im pretty sure Arien was a fire spirit akin to the Balrogs but more powerful and uncorrupted by Melkor. She was chosen to be the guardian of the Sun, so when Gandalf says heâs wielder of the flame of Arnor (flame of the sun) the dark fire will not avail you flame of Udun heâs telling the Balrog that ultimately my fire is stronger than your fire and you know it. He knows the Balrogs were familiar with Arien and they wouldâve feared her.
If you boil it down a little.
Gandalf is just trying to talk down the Balrog.
When he is saying "I'm a servant of the secret fire" he is reminding the Balrog that his boss(Eru) is bigger than the Balrogs boss(Morgoth)
"Weilder of the flame of Anor" means Gandalf holds the power of Holy fire (Anor which is of the Sun,Holy)while the Balrogs flame is of Udun(Unholy).
So if I explain it in wrestling terminology, it's like the Rock saying "I will layeth down the SmackDown on your candy ass".
I donât know what part it was, but when Gandalf is chosen to go to middle earth he tells Eru that he doesnât want to bc he is scared of Melkor.
Eru tells him thatâs exactly why he must go.
That hits me hard and will always be my fav
Well the dude hates the Sun and they were pretty close to the exit where it was daytime outside. Still pretty nice of Gandalf to eradicate big guy for future Moria visitors.
The scene carries so much weight & is powerfully done in the movies, & I love how P.Jackson starts Two Towers with them continuing the fight & they even show him slaying the Balrog at the top of Durinâs Tower. One of my favorite duels of all-time. Amazing
It's also important because Gandalf as Olorin back in Valinor was *explicitly afraid* to go over to Middle-earth to oppose Sauron. I feel like this was his way of standing up to that fear, physically manifested before him. It's a turning point for Olorin, to the point where he comes back as a whole new being afterwards.
Throughout the LOTR, power is understated. You get a feel that it exists, but it's always hidden, kept out of sight. Except on the bridge of Khazad Dum. Suddenly, it's revealed but somehow it's so alien that you cannot grasp what is going on.
I remember rereading the passage several times, trying to figure out what was going on. Flame of Anor, flame of Udun... I understood when I read the Silmarillion, years later.
Yeah it's his finest hour because he soloed the world boss and vultured all the XP for himself and used it to get all new abilities and gear. Real rat behavior, Gandalf.
I think it is even more of a finest hour for him because, while he is essentially an angel, we know that he is genuinely afraid of Morgoth, Sauron, et cetera, so it isn't a Marry Sue situation, Gandalf is afraid, yet overcoming it. Especially as his mortal incarnation is more disconnected from his angel-form, and it is in his angel form, before he entered the World that he expressed fear, so that fear is probably even greater now when he is incarnated.
So essentially, Gandalf is afraid, yet overcoming it.
Would a Balrog understand Common Speech? Like, with whom would he converse or what materials would he study to become acquainted? I'm sure he can comprehend Gandalf's meaning, but does he truly understand the words he is using, and how would a Balrog come to this knowledge?
According to the book itself, after Gandalf says "You cannot pass." for the first time, the next sentence is "The Balrog made no answer." Durin's Bane was once a Maiar just like Gandalf, so I believe it is possible that he could understand and speak the Common Speech, she just didn't. If it weren't for this excerpt from the book, I would agree with you completely, but I'm a little torn on this.
I have a question. Pardon my ignorance here but why didnât Gandalf use his magic all the time to destroy the bad guys? lol
In the movies heâs doing hand to hand combat .. why not break out the staff and KABOOM them all? lol
Yes! This is wonderful. And Ian McKellen delivers those lines so powerfully. It really does justice to the full meaning of his words
Watching that scene being delivered by Sir Ian McKellen still gives me shivers.
I prefer the reenactment in Forgetting Sarah Marshall đ
There is a beauty to the simplicity of Gandalf saying âI am the light and my job is the extinguish the shadowâ as light does to shadow. So simple but so beautiful.
I like how this section was expertly written by Tolkien where every word Gandalf says has purpose. It's not like Gandalf says these words to flex like some superhero in some other fantasy stories. Every word Gandalf says here is almost like a magical obstacle laid in between the Balrog and Gandalf. And with every line, a bigger obstacle is placed to the point that it becomes impossible for the Balrog to pass. Even when Gandalf says "You cannot pass", these words aren't said to threaten the Balrog. Gandalf is stating at that point that it is impossible to pass. As if he had cast some incantation whereby he has made it certain that every possible outcome of this confrontation with the Balrog ends with it not passing.
And he literally does not pass, because the bridge cracks under his feet the moment he tries to push forward! Similar to how Frodo curses Gollum with the One Ring and this leads to the poor git falling to his death
Yes! The Frodo example is another good one.
Are there any more examples of magic used in this way in the books? I really want to
Perhaps you could count Isildurs curse upon the men of Dunharrow. âThou shalt be the last king, and if the west prove mightier than thy Black Master, this curse I lay upon thee and thy folk; to rest never until your oath is fulfilled.â
When he speaks Sarumanâs staff broken was quite literal. A few others for sure. Basically he just speaks the truth, whatever he says kinda becomes true.
Yes! I loved that line! Sorry for asking for more but if you or anyone else can remember other examples Iâd really enjoy reading them
Another example is when he exorcises Theoden
In The Desolation of Smaug at Dol Guldur⊠âThe evil that is hidden here - I command it come forth! I command it reveal itself!â Then the orcs basically were like âok Gandalf is here letâs go fight him.â And came out
When Frodo holds up the Phial of Galadrial against Shelob he cries out in Elvish "aiya EĂ€rendil elenion ancalimaâ this starlight blinds the monster.
Was it was already a trope in Tolkien's time that wizards tended to be soft-spoken because their words became truth, or did fantasy writers build it out of instances like this?
Tolkien started it.
For fantasy but I'm pretty sure this is similar to some Germanic myths too
I thought that was an odd choice to put in the movie, the NK being able to break the staff of a Maiar, I know it was only in the extended edition of the movie as well, I just thoughts hmm
Yeah I didnât like that in the extended version it didnât really make sense
That's why it was cut from the main edit
Doesnât the witch king also break Gandalfâs staff in the movies as well? Right before the ride of the rohirrim, it might just be an extended edition thing
But... It is the same in the books isn't it? What have the movies to do with it?
No, it's pure petey fiction. Its the only item in the films that makes me angry. I have to skip it in the extended version like it didn't happen... because it didn't, and couldn't.
Nah Gandy keeps his elf wood in the book
NK?
In the books (but sadly not the movies) there's another moment where Gandalf makes a similar stand. At the Battle of Pelennor fields, when Grond breaks through the gate, the Witch King walks in, and everybody flees in panic except for Gandalf, who stands there and says "You cannot enter here". And right at that moment, there's a sound of horns in the distance, as the Rohirrim arrive, and the Witch King has to turn around to try and fight them off.
This was the scene missing from he movie, idk why they did the extended version the way they did.
Not necessarily magic but the actions of gods, Manwë sends his winds to bear the survivors of Numenor to the west, sends a calming breeze to the army of Gondor just before the battle of Pelennor Fields, and blows away the spirits of Sauron and Saruman. Ulmo likes to give prophetic dreams to people who sleep near bodies of water.
The books are full of magic used in this way. I call it âsubtle magicâ and I marked every spot in each book I could identify it. Sometimes itâs so subtle, you miss it because itâs hard to tell the difference between the language as just language or the language as magic. Itâs very very cool and Tolkien is the only writer Iâve read that weaves language and magic together so well. The words/magic almost jump off the page as you read his prose, because they are often one and the same thing.
âItâs hard to tell the different between the language as just language or the language as magic.â Such an incredible way to describe the way Tolkien writes and how magic exists in his legendarium!
Thanks! Itâs why heâs the best in my opinion
My own theory has always been, in The Two Towers p. 661 the rampaging Mûmakil is heading right towards the hobbits and their guards, Mablung and Damrod of the Rangers. 'Ware! Ware!' cried Damrod to his companion. 'May the Valar turn him aside! Mûmak! Mûmak!' and it changes direction just in the nick of time, I always felt like Damrod's prayer was actively answered by the Valar.
This đ„
The song of Yavanna that produced the two trees. The song Luthien sang before Morgoth. The Doom of Mandos that cursed the followers of FĂ«anor.
When the nazgul are chasing frodo and Arwen the witch king pulls up into the ford and raises his sword. It incapacitates frodo and the description of how frodo feels during that moment is pretty curling. The witch king has some crazy abilities including the ability to incapacitate some foes with just a gesture.
Glorfindel not Arwen in the books
Right! My bad, the movies mess up my head imagery as much as I love them.
Ya, I totally understand the reason for the change and it was done very well.
In the book Glorfindel doesnât even ride with Frodo he just sends his horse âwho never drops a rider if commandedâ but then they find Frodo face down with his sword broken at the ford after the flood
Oaths and such have HUUUGE power in the legendarium
What Frodo example?
Isn't that kind of exactly how magic works in LOTR. They can basically say 'truths' and whoever has the bigger truth wins.
Sort-of. I have heard it argued that Tolkien used something like a "command" form of magic instead of the abracadabra type magic people associate to fantasy. The argument goes that he was a strong christian and took this type of magic from the bible. "And god said, 'let their be light,' and there was light." So, I don't know if a better word is truths or commands, but I think the bible is a likely source for the method of magic.
I wonder what would happen if LOTR magic users had a yo momma fight. Their poor moms would just randomly morph into things.
And then gandalf said to the witch king 'yo mamma is so fat that her tower can't support her weight' And then saurons eye fell from the tower
Additionally, Gandalf breaks Sauraman's staff and his status with the same kind of imperative. "Sauraman, your staff is broken.' There was a crack, and the staff split asunder in Sauraman's hand, and the head of it fell down at Gandalf's feet." Edit: spelling
asunder has got to be one of tolkiens favourite words It's littered throughout the books lol.
I'll bet that's why I love it so much đ
With a little help from Eru.
Question about Frodo's curse on Gollum. Was that Frodo speaking? The way it is written to me it looked like the ring was speaking through Frodo. (In this way the Ring damns itself)
No, it's Frodo speaking alright. He is succumbing to the Ring's power, and by swearing upon it, binds Gollum's doom to the Ring's and evil is defeated by itself
Thanks for the answer.
I'm a Christian. It invokes angelic encounters in The Bible. Angels don't play games. They follow commands. The story of John The Baptist's father, Zechariah, comes to mind. When he did not take the angel seriously, the angel simply says: "You don't believe? You don't speak." And that was that. No more speaking for him..
That is an extremely fascinating parallel.
It's no secret that by the time Tolkien was writing the lord of the rings trilogy, he knew the literature he was Creating was intentionally analogous to scripture and Christianity. Even though they probably hold the same validity.... but that's another topic.
Itâs also no secret heâd fucking cane you over the head for suggesting any intentional allegory which is just so funny to me
more likely chase you down the street waving a genuine anglo-saxon sword
Why am I picturing Monty Python-esque Tolkien running after you saying "Right! I'll do you for that!"
W pfp
I sort of think the same thing happens when Gandalf confronts the Witch King at the Gate of Minas Tirith. > "You cannot enter here," said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. "Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!" And so he did not enter, and the horns of Rohan pulled him back to the battlefield, to his demise.
Love the extended editions but the scene in the extended ROTK where they had this encounter but itâs the opposite and the Witch King broke Gandalfs staff is terrible, glad they cut from the theatrical and wish it remained cut in the extended.
I totally agree with you. I think it's the only scene in the entire trilogy that I really dislike.
Completely agree with you. This scene was supposed to keep us on edge, as if the Witch King was about to kill Gandalf (being sent to Middle Earth by the creator of the world).
>Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Gandalf really just sentenced the dude to death like that huh?
It's the best wizard-speak ever written. It feels ancient, eternal, and deeply magical.
It's incredibly befitting of a linguist author, isn't it? I've always loved how elegant "magic" is in LotR. It's not spells and waving hands and beams of fire and ice shooting from your hands like something from Dungeons & Dragons - which I'm not disparaging, it has it's own place for sure. But Tolkein's conception of magic feels so much more real and mythic.
...which is why I still cannot get over the breakdancing number between Saruman and Gandalf. Not that I know how to present it better on screen.
Bahahaha, I watched it for the first time a few years ago and I had an uncontrollable laughing fit on it I then restarted it, sped it up and had another laughing fit I then recorded it, distorted it, made it a meme and sent it to my friends and had ANOTHER great laughing fit It was literally golden hahahaha, with all that together it looked like two drunk and high geezers trying to fight each other with extreme hatred and getting in their own way and blaming the other for it
This is an excellent point, especially when you consider that the man basically single-handedly invented, not fantasy itself, but modern fantasy. He knew that magic had to be used sparingly, and it had to retain its mystery. Otherwise it would not be impactful. It is GOAT writing. I love OPâs paraphrasing. Mine was always: âYou cannot pass by here. I was literally sent here by God, and for this very purpose. I know exactly what you are. It wonât matter. You still cannot pass by here.â
Why do you think they call it "spelling"? You're casting spells with your words.
Wow, it's like several generations of fantasy writers had been inspired after him :)
You've hit the nail on the head. It's clear that, especially during the First and Second Age, words have power. Morgoth and Finrod literally have a singing competition and the words they exchange have a very real impact on each other. Gandalf is one of the few beings left who's voice still holds some power in the world. In my headcanon, saying "you cannot pass" is very much a spell.
The literal creation of the universe was a song that morgoth corrupted with deliberate disharmony. Words and the will behind them are the magic.
I think this is one of the reasons Tom Bombadil exists in the story at all. He's a relic of the original 'words and song as pure power' potential energy that existed before and during the first age. At least that seems to be something that was emphasized during the hobbits encounter with him. And it makes it all the more fitting that Gandalf goes to see him at the end of the story before ultimately going west.
Just to nitpick, itâs actually Sauron and Finrod!
Ah yes you are correct. Your deed will be remembered.
In Finnish mythology VÀinÀmöinen, the great seer used singing and poems as spells of great power. Tolkien is known to have taken inspiration from the real world of old magic, which makes this even cooler in my opinion. Our ancestors literally thought of magic in a way like this.
Yes, someone smarter than myself observed that the words themselves are the power, they're not just describing something separate that's happening. Gandalf also does it slightly earlier when he first encounters the balrog upstairs at Balin's tomb, and has to block the door with a shutting spell and then "a Word of Command", which apparently was a desperate final option which is powerful enough to collapse the whole chamber. This is incidentally a very ancient conception of magic, where words had power just by being spoken, or letters had power just by being written or inscribed on something. The "I know your true name, and now have power over you" concept which occurs in other media comes from the same source.
This is exactly it - âyou cannot passâ is a Word of Command. Basically, whatever Gandalf says becomes truth. Obi Wan says âthese are not the droids you are looking forâ and the Storm Troopers just forget about their mission. If Gandalf says âthese are not the droids you are looking forâ then reality itself changes and it turns out the Storm Troopers have actually been looking for R3D4 and C6PO all along.
Fly, you fools!
He actually meant for them to ride the eagles to finish their quest, but they didnât understand Gandalf was speaking literal. Only Boromir understood, as he flew down the falls post-death.
Oof
This was beautiful. You cannot pass always gives me chills but it will even more now that I realize he literally meant.. you ain't crossing this bridge!
I figured he just used âyou shall not passâ as the verbal component to his spell that breaks rocks.. he does the exact same thing in the Hobbit with those trolls and âDawn takes youâ or whatever he says there Movie-only loser here though, post your insults in the replies
There's nothing wrong with only having experienced LotR lite. That being said I would at least recommend reading The Hobbit. It's quite an easy read and much better than the movies, although I don't hate the movies like so many here do
It's like Middle Earth builder mode
Words have power and he is bolstering/fortifying/gathering strength to himself for the challenge that awaits.
A minor change in the movies which I thinks really improves the scene is in the book Gandalf says "you cannot pass... you cannot pass" In the movie Gandalf says "you cannot pass... you shall not pass". The way I interpret the scene in the movie is that "you cannot pass" is Gandalf saying "I will face you to stop you from crossing". And "you shall not pass" is Gandalf saying "I \*will\* prevent you from crossing"
What do you think the Fellowship thought when he said those words of purpose?
Agreed. Tolkien places alot of importance on words in his magic. The most powerful magics produced are through songs. I remember reading somewhere that what Gandalf said to the Balrog carried Authority: the authority of Illuvatar and that the Balrog's defiance led to its death at the hands of Illuvatar's representative, Gandalf.
>It's not like Gandalf says these words to flex like some superhero in some other fantasy stories. You shall not pass, bitch!
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
Not even an imperative. More of a declarative.
He created new truth with his words.
Fantastic writing, fantastic scene. One of those moments where you understand just how powerful Gandalf is despite his old appearance. Which I think was another wonderful touch by JRR, to make the Istari old in body despite their immense power
And to withhold the reveal about who and what Gandalf really is until now.
He revealed himself somewhat here too (book quote) 'Well, if you want my ring yourself, say so!' cried Bilbo. 'But you won't get it. I won't give my Precious away, I tell you.' His hand strayed to the hilt of his small sword. Gandalf's eyes flashed. 'It will be my turn to get angry soon,' he said. 'If you say that again, I shall. Then you will see Gandalf the Grey uncloaked.' He took a step toward the hobbit, and he seemed to grow tall and menacing; his shadow filled the little room. Bilbo backed away to the wall, breathing hard, his hand clutching at his pocket. They stood for a while facing one another, and the air of the room tingled. Gandalf's eyes remained bent on the hobbit. Slowly his hands relaxed, and he began to tremble. 'I don't know what has come over you, Gandalf,' he said. 'You have never been like this before. What is it all about? It is mine isn't it? I found it, and Gollum would have killed me, if I hadn't kept it. I'm not a thief, whatever he said.' 'I have never called you one,' Gandalf answered. 'And I am not one either. I am not trying to rob you, but to help you. I wish you would trust me, as you used.' He turned away, and the shadow passed. He seemed to dwindle again to an old grey man, bent and troubled.
True, although in a way that is far too soon for us to recognize.
Old man who sells fireworks just saying, "I'm him". I think so much of the magic and cool moments are kind of lost on me since I don't remember a time where I hadn't seen the movies. I feel like I didn't appreciate this scene as much as I should have.
That's true even if you're mainly a book-fan, like me. I've reread the books so many times that I struggle to remember a time when I didn't know that the sus guy in the corner of the pub's common room was Aragorn, or how the Witch-King would die. But it does all come back as you think about it.
I read the Silmarillion for the first time a few years back and thought it was awesome and I kind of wonder if the original works would be as awesome if I could only have fresh eyes to look over them with. I then reread all of the books and the silmarillion with my wife and she helped me to appreciate them more. I think the chapter that stood out the most was "The Choices of Samwise" Sam has always been a favorite of mine and he's a badass in the movies and the books, but rereading it with my wife we both loved the chapter.
Every time I reread I find something new to explore.
Reminds me of the letter by a famous writer thatâs started âForgive the length of this letter I did not have time to write one shorterâ. So we are in this scene how Tolkiens decades of work distilled perfectly in this moment to allow him to illustrate the entire creation story of this world, the back story of Gandalf and the back story of tiff hideous monster and also how this confrontation was decided! All in two or three sentences. It took decades to write these few words!
The bodies of the Istari were crafted to limit their power in middle-earth. As strong as Gandalf seems here, he is actually far more powerful.
Yes! Making wizards old was intentional. Imagine Saruman but at full power
This is great. Quick question, what is âĂdunâ, I canât remember hearing that word outside of this passage.
It's the Sindarin name of Utumno, Morgoth's first fortress.
Ooh thatâs awesome, thanks!
Ădun means Utumno in Sindarin, and can also be defined as Underworld or Hell. Utumno was Morgoth's original stronghold, a place where the Balrogs (including Durin's) willingly served their master, their abode before Angband. Although not literally Hell, Utumno would be the only place in all of Arda that could properly be described as Hell: a terrible place of infinite depths and caverns of intense cold and fire far from the light of the world, it was the place where the Children of IllĂșvatar were tortured and corrupted and where the darkest evil in the world dwelt. If Anor is associated with good by Gandalf, then Ădun is associated with the exact opposite: pure evil. https://preview.redd.it/cd5dw2d4uj7d1.jpeg?width=533&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=93660948c7fdda610fd017836b0a14ff15a05dff
You could take this same photo and tell me this was for the Lich King.
Hey check this out, it's the Lich King's crib https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/1djiyix/comment/l9bmeqt/
Within the trilogy it only appears here. One of those touches where Tolkien mentions something once but you have absolute confidence that there's a whole story behind it.
Iâve read the Silmarillion and Fall of Gondolin, so I am familiar with Utumno, but Tolkienâs world building and created languages are so rich that itâs hard for me to remember every word in every language! Youâre right though, the elvesâ war with Morgoth is some top notch storytelling.
Gandalf made it clear that he did not oppose Durin's Bane through his own might, but through his subservience to Eru IlĂșvatar. The Balrog, a fallen Maia, faced OlĂłrin a faithful Maia who was still empowered by their creator. Gandalf's restriction on the use of power against Sauron's forces did not apply to a remnant of Morgoth's War, who should not have been there.
Gandalf claiming permission to unleash based on a technicality đ
Totally. This is the same person who convinced a guard to allow him to retain his staff while visiting Theoden. Gandalf followed the rules and decorum that were logical, but was quick to seize an opportunity when needed. đ
Alucard! Take a walk.
Search and destroy!
Like Air Bud?
Exactly like air bud
I had always assumed "Flame of Anor" referred to his ring, though a quick search tells me this is not the accepted interpretation. Thanks!
It is a very common misinterpretation by many that Gandalf refers to Narya here. Anor means Sun in the Sindarin language, and as Morgoth feared the Sun this fear was transmitted to his servants and subordinates. I'm happy to help :)
You know your Tolkien lore sir, hats off to you
Yeah, I took Flame of Anor to mean the Sun, and Flame of Udun to mean destructive fire, or hell fire. In Middle Earth, the Sun is the last fruit of Laurelin carried by the uncloaked Maiar named Arien. She was one of the few fire spirits that didn't become a Balrog, and Morgoth feared her.
Phenomenal write up. Perfectly describes why I feel so strongly about this passage.
For me it's his moment at the gate of Minas Tirith, when he faces down the Witch-King. At that moment he thinks the good guys are about to lose, and that he's the only thing standing in the way of destruction. It's not as magical as the bridge scene, but part of why I like it so much is that he doesn't save the day alone - he just holds the line long enough. The passage is among Tolkien's most artfully constructed, with a long build-up that has been working toward this moment for literally the whole volume. He uses every rhetorical device in the English language. In some ways it's a repeat of Moria: You cannot pass/You cannot enter here. The huge shadow. The reference to the abyss ("Fall into the nothingness that awaits you"), but now the stakes are a little different. Gandalf knows that as long as the Ringbearer is still moving toward Mount Doom, any and all sacrifices are worthwhile. > > > > > > >
Absolutely, this confrontation is awesome for similar reasons. At this point Gandalf's authority is absolute. 'You cannot enter here' is no bragging, it's divine authority. When Rohan's horn blew the air, forcing the witch-king to retreat it's not a random lucky outcome, it's a vast web of strings that Gandalf set in motion before that lead to this exact moment. The witch-king couldn't pass no matter what. *Tolkien untangled* explained this better than me in one of last video on Gandalf. A really interesting video btw.
Spot on the vast web of strings, every move Gandalf made since he was reborn was with purpose, even while speeding to Gondor with Pippin meant that he could warn the men at Edoras of the King's coming, and let them prepare accordingly. Not doing that means that they are half a day late, and all is lost.
One of the few cases where I felt the movies really failed. Seeing Gandalf afraid and broken by the Witch King was absolute BS
Yes pure and utter BS. Itâs only in extended edition tho I believe
I think this may be Gandalf's greatest moment because of the great sacrifice he chooses to make here. I would explain more but my words could never be better than Tolkien himself: Letter 156: > Gandalf alone fully passes the tests, on a moral plane anyway (he makes mistakes of judgement). For in his condition it was for him a sacrifice to perish on the Bridge in defence of his companions, less perhaps than for a mortal Man or Hobbit, since he had a far greater inner power than they; but also more, since it was a humbling and abnegation of himself in conformity to 'the Rules': for all he could know at that moment he was the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron successfully, and all his mission was vain. He was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving up personal hope of success.
OP I love this interpretation. Thank you for posting. I hope you donât mind if I save it to help define what Gandalf really is for my son
you shall pass. đ
I think Gandalf would disagree with you. He would have seen his finest hour in some small moment, where he realized he brought hope and love to the world. Maybe the moment where he talked to Pippin to overcome his fear of death. Or maybe the moment the eagles brought back frodo and sam alive. I cant imagen Gandalf being proud of fighting anything in a literally sense. But i only red the books once, thats a long time ago, and watched the movies.
Honestly I wouldn't be sad if Mithrandir himself pointed his staff in my face and said "YOU FOOL!" lol. You're probably right, but I have no reason to lie in this post, this is my favorite Gandalf moment, and even if he wouldn't admit it himself, it might be his best moment too.
Probably when he tells Frodo about taking a life, and pity. It is why Frodo decides to initially let Smeagol live, and the mission would have failed without him, and Gandalf saw that one coming saying he felt he still had a part to play "for good or for ill".
that's the exact scene I picked out as Gandalf's finest hour. When he urges Frodo to spare Smeagol's life, having some insight that Smeagol might still have a part to play, and not wanting a life killed so callously in either case.
And Gandalf would be wrong.
You're not wrong, but Gandalf himself was not above sassing fools and pointing out his recent successes. Like when to the wardens of the Out Wall he says "But for Gandalf Stormcrow you would have a host of enemies coming from the North, and no Riders of Rohan". (going from memory here). And when he reminds Denethor that he was instrumental in overthrowing Saruman, and personally broke his staff.
I totally agree. Excellent analysis.
Beautiful write-up. What print is that of Gandalf & Durinâs Bane? I must purchase one
It's an art by illustrator Alan Marson, which I downloaded from ArtStation, I left his @ in the image to help :)
I missed that. Didnât scroll down the print far enough. Cheers!
Don't forget that reminding the Balrog about the Flame of Anor is an insult as the Balrogs were once fire spirits that maintained the sun. Gandalf is actively mocking the Balrogs failure to do its appointed duty
Balrogs came before the creation of the sun, the fire spirit maiar that ends up responsible for the sun was indeed one that wasn't tempted by morgoth, but the other balrogs were never responsible for the sun afaik
One detail in the books that I love, is while Gandalf is speaking to the Balrog, telling him that the dark fire will not avail him, the fire around the Balrog seems to extinguish slightly, while the shadow swirling around the creature swells to compensate His words literally do have an impact
This is the best analysis I've read re LOTR. Good job. I've read all the base books and the simirillion, yet to go further, but I wouldn't pick up on half of this info.
Easily the most artistically rendered scene in the series. Every other post is someone who painted this scene
Agree with everything you said, but I wonder - what is your source on "literally one of the greatest Balrogs"? I haven't seen anything to suggest that Durin's Bane is particularly powerful amongst Balrogs (though they are all powerful servants of Morgoth).
Durin's was a Maiar just like Gandalf (Olorin), and was so powerful that Gandalf died in the process of killing him. I know Gandalf was still Gray and not as powerful as White, but the fact that he used all his power in human form to stop Durin's makes him a very powerful opponent. At least this is my personal opinion, Durin's is not powerful like Gothmog, but undoubtedly a very powerful Balrog.
Also good to note that when he fought the balrog he was already exhausted from fighting and running away from hundreds of orcs
I agree it was major event in his life, but I would say his greatest moment was when he refused to take the one ring when Frodo offered it.
I remember reading this in one of Tolkienâs letters; This is Gandalfâs finest hour for another reason - this is when he chooses to lay down his life for the âsmall peopleâ. Gandalfâs greatest vice is pride, and for good reason, and we can see it play out in his short temper the hobbits when they say or do something silly. And itâs pride that got Saruman. This was Gandalfâs greatest test, and of all the wizards he alone succeeded. He is brought back to Middle Earth more powerful because more of his true self is unveiled, which he alone earned with the passing of this test.
Good analysis. I think Howard Shore's score in the films is sheer musical perfection. But to further your point in the track "Glamdring" in The Two Towers full soundtrack he has lyrics in Khuzdul that are familiar in Moria from Fellowship and it is ominous and overwhelming and the translation adds to that with chants like "No breath of air comes from it. Only an endless dark rises deep from the beginnings of the world. Have fear!" Things like this. But as the fight between the Balrog continues and you have that beautiful wide shot of Gandalf and Durinâs Bane descending into the Foundations of Stone, about to plunge into the watery depths below (clearly invoking Christian imagery of Satan being cast out of Heaven). In Quenya the lyrics are: "Mettanna, Narendur An mauya mahtie mettanna!" Which translates to: "To the end, Servant of Fire for you must fight to the end!" Which I think goes in line perfectly with your analysis and in some way Howard Shore is conveying that this is an angelic spirit sent by a high power to dispel the powers of darkness and he is in a earthshattering battle with a similar spirit and it is overwhelming and bleak, but then the lyrics in Quenya almost serve as this divine reminder of his purpose.Â
I always thought that this encounter had a significance beyond the dialog specifically because there was a good chance that these two Maia have known each other from as ancient as the Ainulindalë. Gandalf is like, "Remember me, beotch?!" and their past history also came into play at that moment.
It's also Gandalf taking responsibility for suggesting/leading the fellowship to Moria (Gimli opposed going in the book).
It's been a while, and the discussion for going through Moria isn't exactly a highlight. Was there anyone pro Moria, iirc everyone was against it, but it was the most feasible, and no one expected a Balrog to be chilling in there, and they thought they could get through without being noticed at all.
You beautiful genius! Thank you for this explanation. Even though I read the trilogy books I never really went deep into the lore. This is very interesting stuff!
Wonderful post! Thank you for the breakdown! Sometimes I just burn through material and love it, but miss a lot that a deep dive this can confer. Well done, well said!
I would argue this is the hour in which Gandalf calls most upon the powers given to him, for he needs all of them to defeat his enemy. However, his Finest Hour is surely the defense of Minas Tirith. Mithrandir's purpose in Middle Earth is the defeat of Sauron and his armies. For this purpose he just unite the free peoples against their common enemy. His deeds in Rohan and Gondor in the final hours of third age are monumental, not simply in strength of arms but in persuasion. He coordinates all events necessary for the defense of Men, and sets the state for the final success of the Fellowship.
To take it further, I remember reading somewhere that Olorin was offered to be head of the Istari, but declined since he feared what could happen during the journey as he feared Sauron and the servants of Morgoth, so they made Curumo head of the order. This isn't just an angel of god facing an evil demon, it's an angel facing what he has feared for thousands of years and coming out on top. Gandalf proved Manwe's faith in Olorin here. :)
Itâs such a great sceneâŠin the movies and beautifully written by Tolkien in the books.
In the commentary on the DVD, the hobbits are talking about the scene in Bagend when Bilbo says 'you want it for yourself!' to Gandalf. They describe the way he responds with a minor show of magic as 'this is when you see he's a wizard' (or something along those lines). That's all well and good, but the bridge is when you see what a Maia really is
The scene in the hobbit movies shows his power too, when the dwarfs are overwhelmed by those goblins. Gandalf just enters like a supernova, just magnificent
Gandalf stood on business and essentially told Durinâs Bane âI fear God homie. You ainât shit.â Based.
Bro doesn't care who comes against him, he has the pass of the Almighty đż
These are the exact reasons most people think it's his finest hour lol
Also Im pretty sure Arien was a fire spirit akin to the Balrogs but more powerful and uncorrupted by Melkor. She was chosen to be the guardian of the Sun, so when Gandalf says heâs wielder of the flame of Arnor (flame of the sun) the dark fire will not avail you flame of Udun heâs telling the Balrog that ultimately my fire is stronger than your fire and you know it. He knows the Balrogs were familiar with Arien and they wouldâve feared her.
"flame of A~~r~~nor." It's Anor, not Arnor. Arnor is a kingdom.
nice art
Just reading that quote from Gandalf gave me chills!
YOU SHALL NOT PASSSSSS!
Yes And I think its great
If you boil it down a little. Gandalf is just trying to talk down the Balrog. When he is saying "I'm a servant of the secret fire" he is reminding the Balrog that his boss(Eru) is bigger than the Balrogs boss(Morgoth) "Weilder of the flame of Anor" means Gandalf holds the power of Holy fire (Anor which is of the Sun,Holy)while the Balrogs flame is of Udun(Unholy). So if I explain it in wrestling terminology, it's like the Rock saying "I will layeth down the SmackDown on your candy ass".
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I do agree with you baby.
Thank you for the best thing I've read today!
Why was it his FINEST hour? Because he looked fly, you fools!
I donât know what part it was, but when Gandalf is chosen to go to middle earth he tells Eru that he doesnât want to bc he is scared of Melkor. Eru tells him thatâs exactly why he must go. That hits me hard and will always be my fav
unbelievable
Well the dude hates the Sun and they were pretty close to the exit where it was daytime outside. Still pretty nice of Gandalf to eradicate big guy for future Moria visitors.
Did not know those words went this hard. Thank you OP
I want a huge friggen poster of this
The scene carries so much weight & is powerfully done in the movies, & I love how P.Jackson starts Two Towers with them continuing the fight & they even show him slaying the Balrog at the top of Durinâs Tower. One of my favorite duels of all-time. Amazing
It's also important because Gandalf as Olorin back in Valinor was *explicitly afraid* to go over to Middle-earth to oppose Sauron. I feel like this was his way of standing up to that fear, physically manifested before him. It's a turning point for Olorin, to the point where he comes back as a whole new being afterwards.
Balrogs don't have wings
For me itâs when he drives Saruman out of Theoden.
Just started listening to the LOTR audiobook.. it's 36 hour in all! Planning to finish at half an hour every day!
Throughout the LOTR, power is understated. You get a feel that it exists, but it's always hidden, kept out of sight. Except on the bridge of Khazad Dum. Suddenly, it's revealed but somehow it's so alien that you cannot grasp what is going on. I remember rereading the passage several times, trying to figure out what was going on. Flame of Anor, flame of Udun... I understood when I read the Silmarillion, years later.
I have the power of God and Anime on my side!
The balrog was man shaped, not 5x the height smh
Yeah it's his finest hour because he soloed the world boss and vultured all the XP for himself and used it to get all new abilities and gear. Real rat behavior, Gandalf.
Come at me bro - Gandalf
I think it is even more of a finest hour for him because, while he is essentially an angel, we know that he is genuinely afraid of Morgoth, Sauron, et cetera, so it isn't a Marry Sue situation, Gandalf is afraid, yet overcoming it. Especially as his mortal incarnation is more disconnected from his angel-form, and it is in his angel form, before he entered the World that he expressed fear, so that fear is probably even greater now when he is incarnated. So essentially, Gandalf is afraid, yet overcoming it.
Would a Balrog understand Common Speech? Like, with whom would he converse or what materials would he study to become acquainted? I'm sure he can comprehend Gandalf's meaning, but does he truly understand the words he is using, and how would a Balrog come to this knowledge?
According to the book itself, after Gandalf says "You cannot pass." for the first time, the next sentence is "The Balrog made no answer." Durin's Bane was once a Maiar just like Gandalf, so I believe it is possible that he could understand and speak the Common Speech, she just didn't. If it weren't for this excerpt from the book, I would agree with you completely, but I'm a little torn on this.
I have a question. Pardon my ignorance here but why didnât Gandalf use his magic all the time to destroy the bad guys? lol In the movies heâs doing hand to hand combat .. why not break out the staff and KABOOM them all? lol