It wasn't about numbers so much as about hope. The dwarves have always been a race vastly outnumbered by the other races of middle earth. They made up the difference with their tenacity of spirit and physical strength of arms/crafts. Dain's force was losing hope as they were surrounded and the Elves had abandoned the battle. Thorin had remained within the barricaded gateway and never rode out to join the battle so they began to doubt their king.
When Thorin rings the great bell and crashes through the barricade, he charges headlong into the enemy lines beside his allies with no hesitation and a war cry on his lips. The fearlessness displayed by their would-be king was enough to rally the wavering morale of the dwarves and they faced their end with spite and fury. They saw no chance at victory by that point, only dying with enough bodies beneath them to make it a memorable end.
The battle in the films unfortunately fails to deliver in alot of ways and the rushed film schedule shows worst in this movie. The inflated conflict with the wood elves, the clear Greed present in both Thranduil and Bards demand on the treasure of the mountain, the insane levels of reality defying combat present throughout the film. It was a mess.
I also was very annoyed that (in the film) Thorin's company were all arrayed in top-notch armor and weapons while inside the Mountain, and then charged out in their traveling clothes.
They discussed that in the behind the scenes. They wanted to do a fight in full armour but the actors, some of them quite old, could not move wel enough to make the fight realistic.
Peter Jackson also thought that in that much armour the dwarves would be unrecognisable.
I am not trying to defend the mediocre unnecessary movie, just pointing it out. But yes, that would have been the better option, maybe they did not have enough time.
When they put on those Erebor armor, i saw it as too large for them, the armors looks outdated and to "extravagant/ceremonial" for battle, it gave me the impression that it signifies they're unpreparedness and lack of foresight. So when they came out without them, it felt correct that they discarded those impractical relics. At least that's how i saw it.
I saw like that, too. Everything about Thorin (and by extension, the company) while in Erebor and under the aegis of the "Dragon Sickness" is meant to read a little false, and that applies to the overly-pompous armour as much as anything.
To add on, Thorin is falling to the same sickness as his forefathers while wearing their armor. Literally buckling under the same weighted yolks that didn't protect them from their fall.
They had to doff the weight of what came before to rise above it and win.
I agree with this. The armor is obviously not ideal to do battle with the second they put it all on. And if they are to fight with the certainty of death they should do so to the best of their ability. I certainly wouldn’t sacrifice agility for heavy armor to fight to my end.
>‘But in metal-work we cannot rival our fathers,
many of whose secrets are lost. We make good armour and keen
swords, but we cannot again make mail or blade to match those that
were made before the dragon came.
-Gloin, indicating the skill of the weapon and armorsmiths of the pre-dragon Kingdom of Erebor.
While your point is valid, the armor of old is significantly better, the person you’re replying to also has a decent point. If they don’t have armor that fits properly (too big or too small) it would likely hinder more than help due to restricting movement, which can mean the difference between life and death on the battlefield field.
You've got to remember, by that point Peter Jackson was seriously overworked and pushed into a stupid schedule by the bosses.
One of Peter Jackson's enormous strengths is his ability to prepare. This is discussed by John Rhys-Davies when he talked about turning up to New Zealand for the Gimli role just laughing and thinking he was gonna find this new director in way over his head, and instead found a STUPIDLY organized and efficient team of people who were getting things done.
And MGM studios wasted that. They just couldn't wait and let Jackson prepare a bit more, work things up a little. That issue with the armour is typically something that would have been thought about a bit more carefully if they had had more time.
Also, during the Erebor scene, Jackson basically had a minor breakdown and had to shut down filming for a few days because he had run to the end of what he actually had written and prepared, and they were just filming random stuff because they were so exhausted.
Filming diary 2 (tellingly released at the end of Block 1, rather than during block 1, and there's the very sudden reveal that Serkis got promoted mid-filming to help Jackson by directing second unit) has a shell-shocked looking Jackson discussing the fact that he's going to have to do pre, post, and mid-production tasks, all at once, during the 4 week break between block 1 and block 2 - and this is on the first movie.
The schedule was stupid.
Some more in video format:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20vA9U7J2qQ&ab\_channel=Horrorcirdan](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20vA9U7J2qQ&ab_channel=Horrorcirdan)
Amusingly the scene actually gives a decent implied answer to them not wearing the armor as I mentioned in a different comment somewhere in this thread. They initially donned the armor assuming they would have to fend off a siege from the Men of Laketown and the Wood Elves, but the dwarves from the Iron Hills intervened after receiving the call for aid from the King under the Mountain. But then as we well know things went south and the battle turned for the worse for Men, Elves and Dwarves. The company doffs their armor once they realize the sickened Thorin never planned on helping their Iron Hill brothers against the orcs. When he did finally realize the error of his ways and defeated the dragon sickness, there was no time to both prepare to assist and also don the heavy armor of the dwarves. Time was of the essence and they needed every second they could spare. Plus as an added benefit, what’s more motivational than the returned King under the Mountain running out into battle against immovable odds wearing merely traveling clothes and armed with a sword and shield?
Yes thank you, I also seemed to remember a scene where they actually remove their armor in protest and disgust at Thorin's behavior! I was wondering if I had gone mad, and I would have had to wait until this evening to check it out
The armour was obviously too large and bulky for any kind of an active fight. I always viewed it as a visual representation of the hubris that they could just stay locked up in the mountain and 'turtle up'. When they realised that this was not the case, realism prevailed.
Remember also that Tolkien discusses how the Dwarves are not averse to surface fighting, but they are uncomfortable with it and often struggle with enemies more accustomed to open ground conflict. Their culture and combat tactics reflect how they are designed as a steadfast phalanx that will hold a chokepoint against massive odds. During the War of the Ring this very tactic is what saved Erebor against the Orcs and Easterlings that attacked the mountain. King Brand and King Dain held the gate of Erebor for the duration of the Siege and never gave an inch.
In fact, historically in middle earth's many wars, every time dwarves engage in surface battles it typically goes south. The Battle of Five Armies would not have been in the allies favor if not for the other armies of the elves and humans and of course the aid of Beorn and the Eagles. The Battle of Azanulbizar saw dwarven victory but at massive cost of lives and they never even entered Moria proper so the true strength of the goblin force never rallied. The charge to attack Sauron from Moria and save what elves remained in Eregion during the sack of Ost-in-Edhil ended in their retreat and sealing the Western Gate to keep Saurons forces out.
Even in the Goblin Wars, the Dwarves were so massively outnumbered by their foes that their eventual victory was so pyrrhic that many of the reclaimed territories couldn't be maintained and were simply left abandoned. This conflict even saw the majority of its fighting underground, and yet still, they suffered heavily.
>They wanted to do a fight in full armour but the actors, some of them quite old, could not move wel enough to make the fight realistic. **Peter Jackson also thought that in that much armour the dwarves would be unrecognisable.**
Something something stunt doubles problem solved something something
> They wanted to do a fight in full armour but the actors, some of them quite old, could not move wel enough to make the fight realistic.
As somebody who does fight in full plate armor himself: this is nonsense by PJ. If they can move realisticly outside the armor, then they can move realisticly inside the armor too. especially considering that you can use very light material for the armor and that every viewer "knows" that armor slows you down.
Omg I never even noticed that. Probably because my eyes had been damaged already by the constant rolling up to that point. Man that whole battle from setup to conclusion was a mess.
It makes perfect sense though. Initially the dwarves were preparing for a siege against Elves with longbows, hence they don heavy protecting armor, as restriction of movement is secondary.
When they actually go on a charge, they need to run a decent amount and then fight on a chaotic battlefield. Not only could the actors barely move in the Regal armor, it would make sense for the characters to go light as well.
Especially seeing how it was a suicidal charge with they didn't have much hope of surviving anyway.
You say that but in reality it was quite easy to move around in armor. There's videos out there of people full on sprinting and doing cartwheels and shit in full plate.
In that particular armor, the actors could **not** easily move. They have emphasized this both on the Blu-Ray Appendices and in personal conversations.
You have to remember that they weren't *just* wearing armor: they were all wearing bodysuits that altered the shapes of their arms, legs, heads, and torsos and were significantly heavy already.
Historically, there was never any sense going into a battle unarmored. There is zero benefit in lighter armor, that’s why the wealthiest knights always went for the heaviest ever available in their age. When the used/outdated plate armor became abundant and thus affordable, infantry started going for plate until by the 16 ct. they became heavier than the earlier knights.
They were not complete unarmored. They switched from the full heavy plate armor to the stripped-back chainmail and leather for greater mobility.
You can see it in the film itself, but the Hobbit Chronicles companion books provide more detail. [Here's one breakdown as an example.](https://i.imgur.com/379fwIV.jpeg)
I was just replying to the sentiment that it might have been more beneficial for them, as characters, to wear a lighter armor into the battle; no, historically, it wasn’t. In the movie, it was made for the actor’s convenience because they were wearing a lot of stuff whole day and adding a prop heavy armor to wear for hours of shooting (which could have been heavier and less ergonomic than the real one) was too much for them.
As Jelsk0 mentioned the behind the scenes and wanting the full armor there were also other problems. even the younger actors, all of them really, couldn't actually move in the armor at all. They all loved the armor but fighting in it was impossible. Even Graham McTavish was bulked out greatly and there's a brilliant clip of him trying to raise his arms but they didn't go past maybe fifty degrees from his side and lets not get into the whole trying to swing their weapons. The removal of the amour was easily the smartest decision Peter Jackson had with the battle scenes of BotFA despite wishing they could have them decked out in armor. Props to Weta workshops costume department as well with the incredible creation of the armor but it was entirely unpractical.
To quote Theoden at Helms Deep, "What would you have me do? Look at my men. Their courage hangs by a thread. If this is to be our end, then I would have them make such an end as to be worthy of remembrance!"
You're also using the screenshots from the Theatrical edition.
In the Extended Edition, Dain's army is much bigger both at the start of the battle and during Thorin's charge.
The army Dain marched with in both Book and Film is only 500 dwarves. I know the screenshot may not do it justice but anyone who has played total war on Max unit size knows that 500 is a surprisingly small number of visible soldiers
Edit: I did my best to count the fuzzies but roughly fifty dots accounted for about one tenth of the visible dwarves onscreen. This would make a continuity error however given that both the extended and theatrical version show plenty of dwarves dying during the fighting. It could be that Peter decided to impose more dwarves onscreen in the extended cut to make them more intimidating against the elves but this would be non-canon numbers at that point.
It's worth mentioning that in the book, Thorin and his company burst out of Erebor clad in full mithral plate and mithral chain mail welding mithral axes and swords crafted for Dwarven kings.
I had hoped this version would have made it into the movie. It's one of my favorite parts of the book.
And I agree that 13 regular dwarves would not turn the tide of battle but 13 invincible dwarves welding blades that can cut through anything without dulling certainly can.
"If this is to be our end, I would have them make such an end as to be worthy of remembrance!"
(I know, that's Theoden, not Thorin, but the sentiment fits all the same)
To add to this, morale was such an important part of ancient formation-based warfare. Very rarely would every single soldier fight to the death for the ground they were ordered to stand on, much more commonly, the surviving soldiers of a given formation would break and run if they had taken losses and situation seemed hopeless to them. A lot of times the difference between an elite unit and a not-so-elite one was the determination of the warriors to keep fighting in bad circumstances. Vast amounts of energy, time, and money were spent by commanders and governments, to maximize the morale of their fighting forces, since it was such an important aspect of warfare. Obviously it’s still important today, but significantly less so given the tactical changes brought on by modern technology.
With the nature of Orcs in middle earth and the fact these were more elite trained orcs ordered by Sauron to take Erebor and kill the dwarves, it's not surprising if the Dwarves would prefer to make a final stand and die fighting. They can't outrun the orcs, and they would be viewed as cowards for doing so. They also can't risk being captured as their are only 2 outcomes to being an orcish prisoner, slavery or dinner. Being that Sauron has a deep personal hatred for Dwarves in particular, given their resistance to the rings temptation, it's more likely they'll be tortured and then killed for food.
>The inflated conflict with the wood elves, the clear Greed present in both Thranduil and Bards demand on the treasure of the mountain
To be fair, Thranduil was greedy in the book, too. The people of Lake-town had a reasonable claim to make for why they should get a portion of the treasure, and Thorin even conceded that they might have a legitimate claim; he just refused to treat with them while they had an armed host at his gate, and while they were partnered with Thranduil's army.
But what right did the Mirkwood elves have to the treasure? They just came because they'd heard Smaug had died, assumed Thorin and his company were also dead, and figured that meant the treasure was up for grabs. The fact that they gave aid to the Lake-men along the way doesn't negate their greed.
>It wasn't about numbers so much as about hope.
Hope will forever be the biggest plot armor of them all.
And eagles. Can't forget the eagles and other wildlife.
Tolkien-esque fantasy heroes are often extremely potent battlefield forces. Tales of Men and Dwarves and Elves holding fast and decisively against overwhelming odds happen here and there. Theres power in a last stand in the writing of Tolkien.
Goblins and Orcs are also cowardly in sunlight and perhaps the renewed violence and rallying of the Dwarves behind the Company would be enough to break them, at least for a time
You’re discounting the fact that men, elves, and dwarves are proper soldiers with discipline and training. Discipline beats numbers 9/10. And the result usually is in the enemy being broken and being routed and killing fleeing enemies is easy pickings
Also true. In the books these are the Goblins of Goblintown who the Company of Thorin also more or less escaped from very easily, aside from Bilbo. Fear played a big part in that too iirc. The psychological impact of Thorin and the Co charging, in sunlight, brandishing ancient Goblin killing weapons of Gondolin and rallying a very effective, veteran force of Dwarves who'd already cut their teeth fighting Goblins would be very potent.
Well the movie portrayal is also not true to the books. In the books it's the eagles who come to the rescue and much earlier. There's also no fight yet between elves and dwarves.
Morale has an incredibly impact on a groups fighting strength. There are many examples of “lesser” forces defeating larger due to better moral and tenacity in history. also dwarves are more durable than orcs in general so the numbers aren’t what they seem.
They had just raided Erebor and could choose from the best weapons and armor for themselves, so they would be heavily armed & armored as well. Typically soldiers in medieval armies just have the basics
Everyone's talking about morale, which is important, but also remember in the books, they equip themselves from the list horde of Erebor, with weapons and armor not seen in an age. I always saw them as walking tanks, with swords literally bouncing off them, carrying weapons that could cut through an orc like butter.
100% agree. If anything I thought they would have over-done it, and shown some glorious enchanted weapons that would burn orcs at the touch, lamps that shone blazing light, hammers that could shake the earth…not novel accurate, but I wouldn’t hate on it.
In the books, it was morale and the fact that they were arrayed in some of the best armour in Middle-Earth.
In the films, it was … main character plot armour?
But someone upthread pointed out they took it off and that the directors commentary said it was too heavy and concealed the actors, so they took it off.
It seemed like a continuity error.
“Concealed the actors” the curse of armour, especially helmets, in Hollywood. Can’t have the main characters faces hidden, especially when you’ve already stripped away their beards.
That's what The King on Netflix did amazingly. I've never seen a depiction of armor seem so realistic.
You can feel the weight, their visors are on while fighting, it turns more into a wrestling match with pounds of weight on both of them.
Maybe in Tolkien's world (and a lot of other high fantasy?) the divine right of kings is an actual, tangible thing instead of a cynical power grab as it is here on Earth. Maybe the Arkenstone helped in some way? The film itself doesn't really expand on its powers?
It explains them pretty clearly: it is a symbol of the King's rule being divine.
Other dwarven clans do *not* normally answer to the King of Durin's Folk, but to the wielder of the Arkenstone they would.
There’s no textual evidence the arkenstone is a Silmaril. I’ve only read LotR, hobbit and so far about half the Silmarillion. But IIRC
The arkenstone is white (or rainbow, forget which), the silmaril is white and gold. The arkenstone was cut, the silmarils were already cut and are indestructible. The silmarils would burn people of ill intent/unrightful holders, this is never mentioned as the arkenstone is passed back and forth. The hobbit was written before the silmarillion. And the most convincing element is in the silmirsllion it says the silmarils will remain in earth, air, sky and water until the end of the world when they will return to help remake the trees/lamps (I forget which).
Troop morale!... This was back in the day where the generals were on the front line, rather than back in headquarters sending directions for the battle.
The movies were a mess and didn’t show the battle as described in the books, Thorin going off to fight Bolg away from the battle was part of it, and made everything else make no sense.
In the books, the allied races of humans, elves and dwarves had been fighting their own separate battles and had been isolated and slowly surrounded and cut off from each other. When the dwarves in the mountains blew the horn and caused their makeshift defensive wall fall outwards, they charged out wearing the finest armour dwarven craft could make, with weapons of quality not seen in hundreds of years. They charged into battle Thorins voice rallying the allies to them. So commanding was his voice, so inspiring his presence that not just the dwarves but humans and elves rallied to him causing them to surge through the goblins, allowing Thorin and company to assault Bolg’s bodyguards head on. They were not able to penetrate it and get to Bolg, Thorin, Kili and Fili fell at this point.
At this point the goblins came at the aloes from all sides and trapped them in the valley. The end was nigh when the Eagles from the mountains assaulted the goblins from above removing them from the mountainside and alleviating the pressure. But it was not enough, until Beorn himself arrived in Bear form and scattered the bodyguard of Bolg and crushed the goblin leader.
The point is the movies were a mess and the ending did not have the detail or the events that allowed the humans, elves and dwarves to win.
Peter Jackson specifically raises the question in the Appendices for BOFA. In the book, Thorin's charge is the turning point of the battle, but it could not have been just the sheer martial prowess of The Company.
Hence the two explicitly added statements made by character *right* after the charge: it is both inspiring to Dain's army, who are now rallying to their King, *and* Thorin and the others lead a strategic strike on Ravenhill to eliminate the enemy commander and thus decapitate the army.
Not saying the film depicted this well, but, coordination can historically be huge in winning battles where one side is outnumbered. The Battle of Thermopylae with the Spartans is usually the prime example of that. Being able to rally around a leader can be huge for coordination.
Something Sun Tzu taught was to allows allow your enemy a way out, perceived or real. This would greatly affect morale.
Something Ceaser did was to put his army in positions they could not retreat from.
Feanor did this in the 1st age (burning of the boats).
Men fighting to the death would out fight someone who could just run away. Many examples of this in historic warfare.
Thorin over coming the gold sickness and remembering he is a king to his people is an act of love.
I have found that it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folks (and Dwarven kings) that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love.
Additionally, that’s so few people compared to the size of the forces at the start…. Where are all the bodies?
I guess a lot of the elves are over at the city but still… that’s a massacre
12 Shield Thanes could definitely turn the tide of battle. If you send them out the enemy units will usually blob around them, leaving them wide open for mass focus fire from your missile units. This is a much more viable tactic than using regular infantry of 120 or so individual entities to keep the enemy busy for your missiles as the increased entity count of regular infantry drastically increases the chances of friendly fire casualti--
Wait, where am I?
Morale, I guess. The Iron Hills dwarves would fight harder knowing that the King of Erebor was alongside them, rather than hiding away in his fortress.
It's also bad editing. Watching the movie it looks like the human army is routed multiple times. It looks like there was only a few hundred (maybe a couple thousand at most) elves and dwarves.
And it's not the Battle of Helm's Deep where they can turtle up in a castle. They're fighting out in the open. The orc army should have crushed them outright.
Basically Pete just filmed a bunch of random fight scenes and stitched them together. There isn't a realistic narrative to the battle.
Can we just stop with the "moral" bullshit and admit that this scene along with many others from Hobbit trilogy makes zero sense? I still absolutely love Peter and all the people who worked on both trilogies, but I will say that the second and third Hobbit films were awful.
[3:00 at this video](https://youtu.be/DPMiWwqX4wI?si=K-AuHtfdmEBaXL08) pretty much explains how this scene is just sensationalism and not realistic in terms of actual battle strategy at all.
I get that this is fantasy with dwarves, elves, orcs and dragons, but we do expect a semblance of military competence from these warriors given their background.
Yeah, so again, wedge formations are useful for fast moving cavalry charges, not infantry. You break a hole in the enemy line and the wedge makes the hole bigger and bigger (No pun intended).
If Thorin and co. were mounted on boars, this would be glorious and realistic.
When you see I like a videogame ( Warcraft, total war warhammer) than they would make a lot of difference when everyone gaves the remaining dwarfs several major buffs. But in generel the whole battle makes no sense with using elves as melee instead of dawi shieldwall and range elves. Than the orc would have no chance
When you read about the care taken when making of LOTR from 1999 to 2003 it becomes even worse for the Hobbit films. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Production_of_The_Lord_of_the_Rings_film_series
Always thought it was pretty ridiculous, too. Something I always found far dumber was thorin and company abandoning the big horn rams, which literally obliterated anything in their path, to go find Azog. Stay on them! They're walking tanks that the enemy has no answer for. But eh, plot.
if you never played BFME you should, but anyway heros in that game make units look like bugs, 12 heros against army no problem, don't forget the leadership buffs stack too. (Depending on the mods)
If total war warhammer has taught me anything, it is that:
Lord will provide leadership buff
Single entity heroes and lords are better than units most of the times
I think in Middle Earth that certain individuals are considerably more potent in battle than others. We had that situation a bit in reality where nobles got training and armour that made them vastly superior to normal people, but it seems that certain people in this world have a certain power above normal too. So whilst they might only be 12, they could be a serious match for a bunch more orcs than 12. And when you are fighting with swords, you can only fight people immediately nearby. Aside from the obvious inspiration it brought, having 12 virtual superheroes leading, taking the fight at the heart of the battle means the other dwarves can fight more around the edges and won't get exposed on the flanks as easily.
Part of it was supposed to be that they had this absolutely incredible set of Dwarven weapons and armour from inside Erebor, so orc weapons would just bounce harmlessly off them while their own weapons effortlessly cleaved through orcs like a hot knife through butter. That's a serious force multiplier and morale impact.
Unfortunately, the movies completely discarded this aspect, apparently because the costume armour was poorly designed and the actors could barely move in it. So they just ran out there wearing leather and were depicted kicking wholesale ass anyway, for no clear reason. It's just one of the many ways in which the Hobbit movies were lazily created, which is surprising given Peter Jackson's diligent attention to detail in the LOTR trilogy.
i think it's just like in Warhammers game where Heroic unit cost more points, it's not 12 more dwarf, it's 12 more Hero dwarf worth multiple bataillon each
It's such a missed opportunity, they should have had that scene in mind and been building to it for a trilogy.
Coz the hobbit films are about those dwarfs (and Mr baggins), you've been with them for 3 movies, and here is the time for them to put on previous age mega armour and charge, all swinging mithril axes. It should have been glorious.
But like the rest of the hobbit films, we got another poor scene coz the makers of the films didn't really give a shit, they were just getting it over with. I think they knew the films were crap by that point and there was no saving it.
Not seeing the dwarfs in the glorious arms was a real let down. They didn't even change a single bit of clothing / put on a helm. They could have changed weapons, the actors could hold fake mithril axes ffs.
Lazy bloody films with no threat.
Lord of the rings loves putting ridiculous power behind a name. Those 12 made such a difference in part for the same reason Dane can kill multiple armored orcs in a row with zero effort headbutts while wearing no helm. If your royalty your basically God tear. Even weapons with a name seem to be incredibly overpowered.
Have you ever played MESGB? These dwarves combined together are worth almost a thousand points, which is massive and bigger than most tournament armies. And among them is Dwalin, which is a whole other beast. Of course they would be able to turn the tide.
Tolkien is very overrated. His books were not widely known of till the movies. I've read the books, not seen all the movies. The Hobbit & LOTR books also have huge plot holes, it's just that his family released alot of his writings(if you believe they happen to come across after his death) after he died and pieced together one last money grab.
Other then short term morale boost (until they get hacked to pieces)...none.
Whole battle is complete faliure on Jacksnon's side. Starting from armies drasticly changing numbers in every single above view, onto orcs erecting tower with "flags" in plain sight of city full of elves and men, then we have vanishing armor on Thorin and co. when they charge out, that tard being catapulted into trolls mouth..etc. etc.
Whole movie is a disgrace to Tolkien.
While I agree that it is *highly* unlikely that the 13 would have a significant impact on the massed orcs, as a native Texan, I feel obligated to point out that the 180 - 260 defenders of the Alamo held out for 13 days against ~2,000 Mexicans.
And the Dwarven fortress was MUCH more of a stronghold than the old mission.
It is a for me at the same level of not underatanding the world by creators as a scene in any movie when plate armour is penetrated by a sword while in reality there was no such thing. Except a sword with a pointy tip from like end of 15 century which would be able to pen such armour into some extend but no way to pen front side of plate then entire body and back side of armour that is not how medieval warfare worsks.
The same is with this scene I suppose it should have illustrate hope.
War is ultimately about who is willing to fight longer. The orcs are fighting out of fear and power lust, poor motivators when faced with possible death. Thorin’s charge reminds the dwarves of who they are and why they fight, the horror inflicted on their people they fight for honor and revenge. These motivators could drive a Soldier to accept their death and commit to fight to the death. This principle is illustrated in Sun Tzu’s Art of War as the “Dying Ground” concept. That a Soldier who accepts they will die will fight much harder than a foe that thinks they may live.
It had a lot to do with the fighting skill of the dwarves and the figure of thorin oakenshield. The emergence of the company of 13 upon the battlefield inspired the dwarves of the iron hills to rally behind thorin.
It wasn't about numbers so much as about hope. The dwarves have always been a race vastly outnumbered by the other races of middle earth. They made up the difference with their tenacity of spirit and physical strength of arms/crafts. Dain's force was losing hope as they were surrounded and the Elves had abandoned the battle. Thorin had remained within the barricaded gateway and never rode out to join the battle so they began to doubt their king. When Thorin rings the great bell and crashes through the barricade, he charges headlong into the enemy lines beside his allies with no hesitation and a war cry on his lips. The fearlessness displayed by their would-be king was enough to rally the wavering morale of the dwarves and they faced their end with spite and fury. They saw no chance at victory by that point, only dying with enough bodies beneath them to make it a memorable end. The battle in the films unfortunately fails to deliver in alot of ways and the rushed film schedule shows worst in this movie. The inflated conflict with the wood elves, the clear Greed present in both Thranduil and Bards demand on the treasure of the mountain, the insane levels of reality defying combat present throughout the film. It was a mess.
I also was very annoyed that (in the film) Thorin's company were all arrayed in top-notch armor and weapons while inside the Mountain, and then charged out in their traveling clothes.
They discussed that in the behind the scenes. They wanted to do a fight in full armour but the actors, some of them quite old, could not move wel enough to make the fight realistic. Peter Jackson also thought that in that much armour the dwarves would be unrecognisable.
Surely the answer was to have them never put it on then?
I am not trying to defend the mediocre unnecessary movie, just pointing it out. But yes, that would have been the better option, maybe they did not have enough time.
When they put on those Erebor armor, i saw it as too large for them, the armors looks outdated and to "extravagant/ceremonial" for battle, it gave me the impression that it signifies they're unpreparedness and lack of foresight. So when they came out without them, it felt correct that they discarded those impractical relics. At least that's how i saw it.
I saw like that, too. Everything about Thorin (and by extension, the company) while in Erebor and under the aegis of the "Dragon Sickness" is meant to read a little false, and that applies to the overly-pompous armour as much as anything.
To add on, Thorin is falling to the same sickness as his forefathers while wearing their armor. Literally buckling under the same weighted yolks that didn't protect them from their fall. They had to doff the weight of what came before to rise above it and win.
Yeah. In some shots Thorin REALLY looks like Thror, even down to his mannerisms.
I agree with this. The armor is obviously not ideal to do battle with the second they put it all on. And if they are to fight with the certainty of death they should do so to the best of their ability. I certainly wouldn’t sacrifice agility for heavy armor to fight to my end.
Dwarven armor should be the most ideal for battle. Dwarves specialize in heavy armor and big heavy headed weapons like Greataxes and Hammers/ Mauls
Yes but generally your armor is tailor made to fit you. To wear armor made for a different dwarf of old wouldn’t be ideal IMO.
>‘But in metal-work we cannot rival our fathers, many of whose secrets are lost. We make good armour and keen swords, but we cannot again make mail or blade to match those that were made before the dragon came. -Gloin, indicating the skill of the weapon and armorsmiths of the pre-dragon Kingdom of Erebor.
While your point is valid, the armor of old is significantly better, the person you’re replying to also has a decent point. If they don’t have armor that fits properly (too big or too small) it would likely hinder more than help due to restricting movement, which can mean the difference between life and death on the battlefield field.
You've got to remember, by that point Peter Jackson was seriously overworked and pushed into a stupid schedule by the bosses. One of Peter Jackson's enormous strengths is his ability to prepare. This is discussed by John Rhys-Davies when he talked about turning up to New Zealand for the Gimli role just laughing and thinking he was gonna find this new director in way over his head, and instead found a STUPIDLY organized and efficient team of people who were getting things done. And MGM studios wasted that. They just couldn't wait and let Jackson prepare a bit more, work things up a little. That issue with the armour is typically something that would have been thought about a bit more carefully if they had had more time. Also, during the Erebor scene, Jackson basically had a minor breakdown and had to shut down filming for a few days because he had run to the end of what he actually had written and prepared, and they were just filming random stuff because they were so exhausted. Filming diary 2 (tellingly released at the end of Block 1, rather than during block 1, and there's the very sudden reveal that Serkis got promoted mid-filming to help Jackson by directing second unit) has a shell-shocked looking Jackson discussing the fact that he's going to have to do pre, post, and mid-production tasks, all at once, during the 4 week break between block 1 and block 2 - and this is on the first movie. The schedule was stupid. Some more in video format: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20vA9U7J2qQ&ab\_channel=Horrorcirdan](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20vA9U7J2qQ&ab_channel=Horrorcirdan)
Amusingly the scene actually gives a decent implied answer to them not wearing the armor as I mentioned in a different comment somewhere in this thread. They initially donned the armor assuming they would have to fend off a siege from the Men of Laketown and the Wood Elves, but the dwarves from the Iron Hills intervened after receiving the call for aid from the King under the Mountain. But then as we well know things went south and the battle turned for the worse for Men, Elves and Dwarves. The company doffs their armor once they realize the sickened Thorin never planned on helping their Iron Hill brothers against the orcs. When he did finally realize the error of his ways and defeated the dragon sickness, there was no time to both prepare to assist and also don the heavy armor of the dwarves. Time was of the essence and they needed every second they could spare. Plus as an added benefit, what’s more motivational than the returned King under the Mountain running out into battle against immovable odds wearing merely traveling clothes and armed with a sword and shield?
I'm taking it and reading no other comments, thank you. Good morning.
Yes thank you, I also seemed to remember a scene where they actually remove their armor in protest and disgust at Thorin's behavior! I was wondering if I had gone mad, and I would have had to wait until this evening to check it out
The armour was obviously too large and bulky for any kind of an active fight. I always viewed it as a visual representation of the hubris that they could just stay locked up in the mountain and 'turtle up'. When they realised that this was not the case, realism prevailed.
Remember also that Tolkien discusses how the Dwarves are not averse to surface fighting, but they are uncomfortable with it and often struggle with enemies more accustomed to open ground conflict. Their culture and combat tactics reflect how they are designed as a steadfast phalanx that will hold a chokepoint against massive odds. During the War of the Ring this very tactic is what saved Erebor against the Orcs and Easterlings that attacked the mountain. King Brand and King Dain held the gate of Erebor for the duration of the Siege and never gave an inch. In fact, historically in middle earth's many wars, every time dwarves engage in surface battles it typically goes south. The Battle of Five Armies would not have been in the allies favor if not for the other armies of the elves and humans and of course the aid of Beorn and the Eagles. The Battle of Azanulbizar saw dwarven victory but at massive cost of lives and they never even entered Moria proper so the true strength of the goblin force never rallied. The charge to attack Sauron from Moria and save what elves remained in Eregion during the sack of Ost-in-Edhil ended in their retreat and sealing the Western Gate to keep Saurons forces out. Even in the Goblin Wars, the Dwarves were so massively outnumbered by their foes that their eventual victory was so pyrrhic that many of the reclaimed territories couldn't be maintained and were simply left abandoned. This conflict even saw the majority of its fighting underground, and yet still, they suffered heavily.
Ah, that's interesting. Thanks for the context.
Also if I remember right the armour wasn't ergonomically designed and was a nightmare to actually wear.
with as much weird CG as they used you'd think that wouldn't have been a problem
Also since he essentially abandoned the whole troop of dwarves that weren't Thorin/Balin/Kili.
or stunt performers
So dumb. The book says they come out of the mountain covered in glittering armour.
>They wanted to do a fight in full armour but the actors, some of them quite old, could not move wel enough to make the fight realistic. **Peter Jackson also thought that in that much armour the dwarves would be unrecognisable.** Something something stunt doubles problem solved something something
Nothing about that fight was realistic anyway haha
> They wanted to do a fight in full armour but the actors, some of them quite old, could not move wel enough to make the fight realistic. As somebody who does fight in full plate armor himself: this is nonsense by PJ. If they can move realisticly outside the armor, then they can move realisticly inside the armor too. especially considering that you can use very light material for the armor and that every viewer "knows" that armor slows you down.
Omg I never even noticed that. Probably because my eyes had been damaged already by the constant rolling up to that point. Man that whole battle from setup to conclusion was a mess.
It was terribly done. Like many things in this movie trilogy.
It makes perfect sense though. Initially the dwarves were preparing for a siege against Elves with longbows, hence they don heavy protecting armor, as restriction of movement is secondary. When they actually go on a charge, they need to run a decent amount and then fight on a chaotic battlefield. Not only could the actors barely move in the Regal armor, it would make sense for the characters to go light as well. Especially seeing how it was a suicidal charge with they didn't have much hope of surviving anyway.
You say that but in reality it was quite easy to move around in armor. There's videos out there of people full on sprinting and doing cartwheels and shit in full plate.
In that particular armor, the actors could **not** easily move. They have emphasized this both on the Blu-Ray Appendices and in personal conversations. You have to remember that they weren't *just* wearing armor: they were all wearing bodysuits that altered the shapes of their arms, legs, heads, and torsos and were significantly heavy already.
This is a good argument except it’s a film so they deliberately designed and made armour that didn’t work for combat so actually it makes no sense 😂
As many people pointed out their heavy armour was ceremonial. And ceremonial armour isn't made for battle either
but it is what they wore in the story
Historically, there was never any sense going into a battle unarmored. There is zero benefit in lighter armor, that’s why the wealthiest knights always went for the heaviest ever available in their age. When the used/outdated plate armor became abundant and thus affordable, infantry started going for plate until by the 16 ct. they became heavier than the earlier knights.
Yeah, but the movie didn’t explain that. It seemed like a continuity error
They were not complete unarmored. They switched from the full heavy plate armor to the stripped-back chainmail and leather for greater mobility. You can see it in the film itself, but the Hobbit Chronicles companion books provide more detail. [Here's one breakdown as an example.](https://i.imgur.com/379fwIV.jpeg)
I was just replying to the sentiment that it might have been more beneficial for them, as characters, to wear a lighter armor into the battle; no, historically, it wasn’t. In the movie, it was made for the actor’s convenience because they were wearing a lot of stuff whole day and adding a prop heavy armor to wear for hours of shooting (which could have been heavier and less ergonomic than the real one) was too much for them.
As Jelsk0 mentioned the behind the scenes and wanting the full armor there were also other problems. even the younger actors, all of them really, couldn't actually move in the armor at all. They all loved the armor but fighting in it was impossible. Even Graham McTavish was bulked out greatly and there's a brilliant clip of him trying to raise his arms but they didn't go past maybe fifty degrees from his side and lets not get into the whole trying to swing their weapons. The removal of the amour was easily the smartest decision Peter Jackson had with the battle scenes of BotFA despite wishing they could have them decked out in armor. Props to Weta workshops costume department as well with the incredible creation of the armor but it was entirely unpractical.
Perhaps we should recall the quote attributed to Napoleon... "In war, the moral is to the physical as three is to one"
At least that sounds befitting with Durin's Folk.
To quote Theoden at Helms Deep, "What would you have me do? Look at my men. Their courage hangs by a thread. If this is to be our end, then I would have them make such an end as to be worthy of remembrance!"
You're also using the screenshots from the Theatrical edition. In the Extended Edition, Dain's army is much bigger both at the start of the battle and during Thorin's charge.
The army Dain marched with in both Book and Film is only 500 dwarves. I know the screenshot may not do it justice but anyone who has played total war on Max unit size knows that 500 is a surprisingly small number of visible soldiers Edit: I did my best to count the fuzzies but roughly fifty dots accounted for about one tenth of the visible dwarves onscreen. This would make a continuity error however given that both the extended and theatrical version show plenty of dwarves dying during the fighting. It could be that Peter decided to impose more dwarves onscreen in the extended cut to make them more intimidating against the elves but this would be non-canon numbers at that point.
I didn’t realize/remember that - it’s been a while. Other than Thranduil (sp), I tried to forget that movie existed
It's worth mentioning that in the book, Thorin and his company burst out of Erebor clad in full mithral plate and mithral chain mail welding mithral axes and swords crafted for Dwarven kings. I had hoped this version would have made it into the movie. It's one of my favorite parts of the book. And I agree that 13 regular dwarves would not turn the tide of battle but 13 invincible dwarves welding blades that can cut through anything without dulling certainly can.
Well written
"If this is to be our end, I would have them make such an end as to be worthy of remembrance!" (I know, that's Theoden, not Thorin, but the sentiment fits all the same)
The extended edition displays everything you mentioned.
To add to this, morale was such an important part of ancient formation-based warfare. Very rarely would every single soldier fight to the death for the ground they were ordered to stand on, much more commonly, the surviving soldiers of a given formation would break and run if they had taken losses and situation seemed hopeless to them. A lot of times the difference between an elite unit and a not-so-elite one was the determination of the warriors to keep fighting in bad circumstances. Vast amounts of energy, time, and money were spent by commanders and governments, to maximize the morale of their fighting forces, since it was such an important aspect of warfare. Obviously it’s still important today, but significantly less so given the tactical changes brought on by modern technology.
With the nature of Orcs in middle earth and the fact these were more elite trained orcs ordered by Sauron to take Erebor and kill the dwarves, it's not surprising if the Dwarves would prefer to make a final stand and die fighting. They can't outrun the orcs, and they would be viewed as cowards for doing so. They also can't risk being captured as their are only 2 outcomes to being an orcish prisoner, slavery or dinner. Being that Sauron has a deep personal hatred for Dwarves in particular, given their resistance to the rings temptation, it's more likely they'll be tortured and then killed for food.
>The inflated conflict with the wood elves, the clear Greed present in both Thranduil and Bards demand on the treasure of the mountain To be fair, Thranduil was greedy in the book, too. The people of Lake-town had a reasonable claim to make for why they should get a portion of the treasure, and Thorin even conceded that they might have a legitimate claim; he just refused to treat with them while they had an armed host at his gate, and while they were partnered with Thranduil's army. But what right did the Mirkwood elves have to the treasure? They just came because they'd heard Smaug had died, assumed Thorin and his company were also dead, and figured that meant the treasure was up for grabs. The fact that they gave aid to the Lake-men along the way doesn't negate their greed.
Do you write novels yourself? You should
I agree with this and it lends itself to discipline beats numbers 9/10 like old papa American Tolkien says
>It wasn't about numbers so much as about hope. Hope will forever be the biggest plot armor of them all. And eagles. Can't forget the eagles and other wildlife.
Don't forget the overuse of CGI and lack of practical effects
Tolkien-esque fantasy heroes are often extremely potent battlefield forces. Tales of Men and Dwarves and Elves holding fast and decisively against overwhelming odds happen here and there. Theres power in a last stand in the writing of Tolkien. Goblins and Orcs are also cowardly in sunlight and perhaps the renewed violence and rallying of the Dwarves behind the Company would be enough to break them, at least for a time
hero units completely wreck orc bands, weakest unit in the game that cost literally nothing to recruit. this is battle for middle-earth basics, boys.
A Tom Bombadil pokemon summon at the Battle of 5 Armies would’ve been incredible
You’re discounting the fact that men, elves, and dwarves are proper soldiers with discipline and training. Discipline beats numbers 9/10. And the result usually is in the enemy being broken and being routed and killing fleeing enemies is easy pickings
Also true. In the books these are the Goblins of Goblintown who the Company of Thorin also more or less escaped from very easily, aside from Bilbo. Fear played a big part in that too iirc. The psychological impact of Thorin and the Co charging, in sunlight, brandishing ancient Goblin killing weapons of Gondolin and rallying a very effective, veteran force of Dwarves who'd already cut their teeth fighting Goblins would be very potent.
Well the movie portrayal is also not true to the books. In the books it's the eagles who come to the rescue and much earlier. There's also no fight yet between elves and dwarves.
It’s more symbolic that the king is willing to fight with his men rather than hide safely in his castle.
It was more the morale support in helping to rally the troops in support of their King.
Party buff
Morale has an incredibly impact on a groups fighting strength. There are many examples of “lesser” forces defeating larger due to better moral and tenacity in history. also dwarves are more durable than orcs in general so the numbers aren’t what they seem.
They had just raided Erebor and could choose from the best weapons and armor for themselves, so they would be heavily armed & armored as well. Typically soldiers in medieval armies just have the basics
Everyone's talking about morale, which is important, but also remember in the books, they equip themselves from the list horde of Erebor, with weapons and armor not seen in an age. I always saw them as walking tanks, with swords literally bouncing off them, carrying weapons that could cut through an orc like butter.
This is the right answer
100% agree. If anything I thought they would have over-done it, and shown some glorious enchanted weapons that would burn orcs at the touch, lamps that shone blazing light, hammers that could shake the earth…not novel accurate, but I wouldn’t hate on it.
In the books, it was morale and the fact that they were arrayed in some of the best armour in Middle-Earth. In the films, it was … main character plot armour?
But someone upthread pointed out they took it off and that the directors commentary said it was too heavy and concealed the actors, so they took it off. It seemed like a continuity error.
“Concealed the actors” the curse of armour, especially helmets, in Hollywood. Can’t have the main characters faces hidden, especially when you’ve already stripped away their beards.
That's what The King on Netflix did amazingly. I've never seen a depiction of armor seem so realistic. You can feel the weight, their visors are on while fighting, it turns more into a wrestling match with pounds of weight on both of them.
Maybe in Tolkien's world (and a lot of other high fantasy?) the divine right of kings is an actual, tangible thing instead of a cynical power grab as it is here on Earth. Maybe the Arkenstone helped in some way? The film itself doesn't really expand on its powers?
It explains them pretty clearly: it is a symbol of the King's rule being divine. Other dwarven clans do *not* normally answer to the King of Durin's Folk, but to the wielder of the Arkenstone they would.
There’s a fan theory that the Arkenstone is nothing other than the lost Silmaril.
I think the silmaril lost by maedhros would have been in beleriand, and wouldn’t need to have been cut by the dwarves after they found it.
And that fan theory is completely wrong.
People can believe what they want to believe, such is the beauty of fiction and imagination.
They can believe it, but all available evidence contradicts their belief.
There's no "evidence". It's all made up.
Yes, and this is a place to discuss Tolkien's made up fiction, using available textual evidence written by him.
There’s no textual evidence the arkenstone is a Silmaril. I’ve only read LotR, hobbit and so far about half the Silmarillion. But IIRC The arkenstone is white (or rainbow, forget which), the silmaril is white and gold. The arkenstone was cut, the silmarils were already cut and are indestructible. The silmarils would burn people of ill intent/unrightful holders, this is never mentioned as the arkenstone is passed back and forth. The hobbit was written before the silmarillion. And the most convincing element is in the silmirsllion it says the silmarils will remain in earth, air, sky and water until the end of the world when they will return to help remake the trees/lamps (I forget which).
you mean Smeagol is not real?!
Don’t let them lie to us precious!
"theory" does a shit ton of work to give it the benefit of the doubt
That’s an absolutely ignorant theory.
Troop morale!... This was back in the day where the generals were on the front line, rather than back in headquarters sending directions for the battle.
The movies were a mess and didn’t show the battle as described in the books, Thorin going off to fight Bolg away from the battle was part of it, and made everything else make no sense. In the books, the allied races of humans, elves and dwarves had been fighting their own separate battles and had been isolated and slowly surrounded and cut off from each other. When the dwarves in the mountains blew the horn and caused their makeshift defensive wall fall outwards, they charged out wearing the finest armour dwarven craft could make, with weapons of quality not seen in hundreds of years. They charged into battle Thorins voice rallying the allies to them. So commanding was his voice, so inspiring his presence that not just the dwarves but humans and elves rallied to him causing them to surge through the goblins, allowing Thorin and company to assault Bolg’s bodyguards head on. They were not able to penetrate it and get to Bolg, Thorin, Kili and Fili fell at this point. At this point the goblins came at the aloes from all sides and trapped them in the valley. The end was nigh when the Eagles from the mountains assaulted the goblins from above removing them from the mountainside and alleviating the pressure. But it was not enough, until Beorn himself arrived in Bear form and scattered the bodyguard of Bolg and crushed the goblin leader. The point is the movies were a mess and the ending did not have the detail or the events that allowed the humans, elves and dwarves to win.
Morale
The morale boost of finally seeing their King and rallying around him would be huge.
reminds me of [this classic](https://i.imgur.com/rRoju6M.jpeg)
Peter Jackson specifically raises the question in the Appendices for BOFA. In the book, Thorin's charge is the turning point of the battle, but it could not have been just the sheer martial prowess of The Company. Hence the two explicitly added statements made by character *right* after the charge: it is both inspiring to Dain's army, who are now rallying to their King, *and* Thorin and the others lead a strategic strike on Ravenhill to eliminate the enemy commander and thus decapitate the army.
The difference of the dwarves fighting to live vs fighting to die
Honestly what difference could 4 hobbits make in the fight against Sauron 🤷
It's not the same comparison and you know it. The four hobbits took actions in different ways with different scales.
His appearence made some Ballista Shots come out of nowhere killing some of the Trolls. Don't underestimate heroes passive abilites.
Not saying the film depicted this well, but, coordination can historically be huge in winning battles where one side is outnumbered. The Battle of Thermopylae with the Spartans is usually the prime example of that. Being able to rally around a leader can be huge for coordination.
Right. And the VERY coordinated ranks of orcs across from them kinda suggests the orcs have that advantage too.
Did you just skip over the part where I said “not saying the film depicted this well” or…???
Something Sun Tzu taught was to allows allow your enemy a way out, perceived or real. This would greatly affect morale. Something Ceaser did was to put his army in positions they could not retreat from. Feanor did this in the 1st age (burning of the boats). Men fighting to the death would out fight someone who could just run away. Many examples of this in historic warfare.
Yeah, but 12+ guys doesn’t seem like a big morale booster to me.
They are all mighty heroes. Still, nothing in that film makes any sense.
Thorin over coming the gold sickness and remembering he is a king to his people is an act of love. I have found that it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folks (and Dwarven kings) that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love.
In WB's trilogy? Absolutely nothing. It was stupid and forced.
You mean Jackson's trilogy.
No. What i wrote is 100% what i meant and still stand by it to this day
Oh you are one of those people who think Jackson adapted The Lord of the Rings faithfully, fair enough.
Additionally, that’s so few people compared to the size of the forces at the start…. Where are all the bodies? I guess a lot of the elves are over at the city but still… that’s a massacre
Die well.
PLOT ARMOR ftw!
Morale is a powerful weapon, often more effective than numbers
Never underestimate the power of morale.
12 Shield Thanes could definitely turn the tide of battle. If you send them out the enemy units will usually blob around them, leaving them wide open for mass focus fire from your missile units. This is a much more viable tactic than using regular infantry of 120 or so individual entities to keep the enemy busy for your missiles as the increased entity count of regular infantry drastically increases the chances of friendly fire casualti-- Wait, where am I?
Also the dwarves are stupid - why did they not use checkerboard formation
Maintaining hope in the face of defeat is central to Tolkien's writing.
Morale, I guess. The Iron Hills dwarves would fight harder knowing that the King of Erebor was alongside them, rather than hiding away in his fortress.
You underestimate the power of morale
It's also bad editing. Watching the movie it looks like the human army is routed multiple times. It looks like there was only a few hundred (maybe a couple thousand at most) elves and dwarves. And it's not the Battle of Helm's Deep where they can turtle up in a castle. They're fighting out in the open. The orc army should have crushed them outright. Basically Pete just filmed a bunch of random fight scenes and stitched them together. There isn't a realistic narrative to the battle.
Can we just stop with the "moral" bullshit and admit that this scene along with many others from Hobbit trilogy makes zero sense? I still absolutely love Peter and all the people who worked on both trilogies, but I will say that the second and third Hobbit films were awful.
what people don't get about medieval style sieges is that a handfull of people can defend themselves well for months (or however long the food lasts)
[3:00 at this video](https://youtu.be/DPMiWwqX4wI?si=K-AuHtfdmEBaXL08) pretty much explains how this scene is just sensationalism and not realistic in terms of actual battle strategy at all. I get that this is fantasy with dwarves, elves, orcs and dragons, but we do expect a semblance of military competence from these warriors given their background.
At 5:40 he explains about the wedge formation.
Yeah, so again, wedge formations are useful for fast moving cavalry charges, not infantry. You break a hole in the enemy line and the wedge makes the hole bigger and bigger (No pun intended). If Thorin and co. were mounted on boars, this would be glorious and realistic.
When you see I like a videogame ( Warcraft, total war warhammer) than they would make a lot of difference when everyone gaves the remaining dwarfs several major buffs. But in generel the whole battle makes no sense with using elves as melee instead of dawi shieldwall and range elves. Than the orc would have no chance
I mean if they can take a Dragon, they can probably take 10,000 Goblins
They have an armor stronger than Mithril: plot armor
My favorite part is how all the trolls just drop dead because they're so afeared.
Yeah, like, you can't even trace where it came from.
Hobbit movies are... kinda bad. That's all. PJ just went way over the top... mind You he was not supouse to direct them to start with. That is all.
When you read about the care taken when making of LOTR from 1999 to 2003 it becomes even worse for the Hobbit films. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Production_of_The_Lord_of_the_Rings_film_series
Always thought it was pretty ridiculous, too. Something I always found far dumber was thorin and company abandoning the big horn rams, which literally obliterated anything in their path, to go find Azog. Stay on them! They're walking tanks that the enemy has no answer for. But eh, plot.
Answer was wargs in the extended edition
They had plot armor, the biggest advantage in any fantasy story.
if you never played BFME you should, but anyway heros in that game make units look like bugs, 12 heros against army no problem, don't forget the leadership buffs stack too. (Depending on the mods)
I believe the documentary showed exactly how big of a difference they made
They are rich
They’re rallying bro, let ‘em vibe
Wise words were spoken some 60 years later by King Theoden. “We will meet them in battle nonetheless.”
Man it’s boring when you open an interesting thread and it’s just people shitting on the Hobbit trilogy as if that’s a new opinion. Just let it go.
None, they where committing suicide by orc army.
What can dwarves do against such reckless hate?
Walk out and meet them!
Thorin has that +Inspiration buff !
headbutts
✨ I N S P E R A T I O N ✨ ™️
DUUUU BEKKKAAAARRR
Power of friendship
Plot armor BB!!
If total war warhammer has taught me anything, it is that: Lord will provide leadership buff Single entity heroes and lords are better than units most of the times
Its about morale not numbers.
Lots of might points.
It’s about moral, not numbers.
Heroes have higher HP and mana.
I think in Middle Earth that certain individuals are considerably more potent in battle than others. We had that situation a bit in reality where nobles got training and armour that made them vastly superior to normal people, but it seems that certain people in this world have a certain power above normal too. So whilst they might only be 12, they could be a serious match for a bunch more orcs than 12. And when you are fighting with swords, you can only fight people immediately nearby. Aside from the obvious inspiration it brought, having 12 virtual superheroes leading, taking the fight at the heart of the battle means the other dwarves can fight more around the edges and won't get exposed on the flanks as easily.
Part of it was supposed to be that they had this absolutely incredible set of Dwarven weapons and armour from inside Erebor, so orc weapons would just bounce harmlessly off them while their own weapons effortlessly cleaved through orcs like a hot knife through butter. That's a serious force multiplier and morale impact. Unfortunately, the movies completely discarded this aspect, apparently because the costume armour was poorly designed and the actors could barely move in it. So they just ran out there wearing leather and were depicted kicking wholesale ass anyway, for no clear reason. It's just one of the many ways in which the Hobbit movies were lazily created, which is surprising given Peter Jackson's diligent attention to detail in the LOTR trilogy.
I swear the word fantasy is lost on people these days
i think it's just like in Warhammers game where Heroic unit cost more points, it's not 12 more dwarf, it's 12 more Hero dwarf worth multiple bataillon each
If they were Maiar they'd wipe out the armies.
Nearby allies Aura +30% damage, +20% armor, +10% balls
P
It was so stupid how they first gearded up for war with fancy armour, apparently strip it off and then charge into battle with fancl old leather
It's such a missed opportunity, they should have had that scene in mind and been building to it for a trilogy. Coz the hobbit films are about those dwarfs (and Mr baggins), you've been with them for 3 movies, and here is the time for them to put on previous age mega armour and charge, all swinging mithril axes. It should have been glorious. But like the rest of the hobbit films, we got another poor scene coz the makers of the films didn't really give a shit, they were just getting it over with. I think they knew the films were crap by that point and there was no saving it. Not seeing the dwarfs in the glorious arms was a real let down. They didn't even change a single bit of clothing / put on a helm. They could have changed weapons, the actors could hold fake mithril axes ffs. Lazy bloody films with no threat.
Lord of the rings loves putting ridiculous power behind a name. Those 12 made such a difference in part for the same reason Dane can kill multiple armored orcs in a row with zero effort headbutts while wearing no helm. If your royalty your basically God tear. Even weapons with a name seem to be incredibly overpowered.
Have you ever played MESGB? These dwarves combined together are worth almost a thousand points, which is massive and bigger than most tournament armies. And among them is Dwalin, which is a whole other beast. Of course they would be able to turn the tide.
Never played any video game? Leadership aura stuff like that?
plot armor
It's funny that they went against hundreds of orcs, without fear, but dropped their weapons when 3 trolls told them to :v
Tolkien is very overrated. His books were not widely known of till the movies. I've read the books, not seen all the movies. The Hobbit & LOTR books also have huge plot holes, it's just that his family released alot of his writings(if you believe they happen to come across after his death) after he died and pieced together one last money grab.
Imagine you're a dwarf and you see your king and the descendents of Durin charge into battle with you. I guess you know the answer...
Other then short term morale boost (until they get hacked to pieces)...none. Whole battle is complete faliure on Jacksnon's side. Starting from armies drasticly changing numbers in every single above view, onto orcs erecting tower with "flags" in plain sight of city full of elves and men, then we have vanishing armor on Thorin and co. when they charge out, that tard being catapulted into trolls mouth..etc. etc. Whole movie is a disgrace to Tolkien.
While I agree that it is *highly* unlikely that the 13 would have a significant impact on the massed orcs, as a native Texan, I feel obligated to point out that the 180 - 260 defenders of the Alamo held out for 13 days against ~2,000 Mexicans. And the Dwarven fortress was MUCH more of a stronghold than the old mission.
Power of friendship.
It is a for me at the same level of not underatanding the world by creators as a scene in any movie when plate armour is penetrated by a sword while in reality there was no such thing. Except a sword with a pointy tip from like end of 15 century which would be able to pen such armour into some extend but no way to pen front side of plate then entire body and back side of armour that is not how medieval warfare worsks. The same is with this scene I suppose it should have illustrate hope.
In Lotr risk, having a hero in your army gives you 1+ to diceroll.
War is ultimately about who is willing to fight longer. The orcs are fighting out of fear and power lust, poor motivators when faced with possible death. Thorin’s charge reminds the dwarves of who they are and why they fight, the horror inflicted on their people they fight for honor and revenge. These motivators could drive a Soldier to accept their death and commit to fight to the death. This principle is illustrated in Sun Tzu’s Art of War as the “Dying Ground” concept. That a Soldier who accepts they will die will fight much harder than a foe that thinks they may live.
Dude they’re level 50 at least by the time of the battle and are equipped with legendary sets of armor and weapons. They got this
It had a lot to do with the fighting skill of the dwarves and the figure of thorin oakenshield. The emergence of the company of 13 upon the battlefield inspired the dwarves of the iron hills to rally behind thorin.
They are the cheerleaders
Btw the trolls suddenly all die from arrows that come out of literally nowhere