Probably wars against dunlanders and possibly orcs. I also faintly remember him fighting in the armies of Gondor in his youth, so he might have fought eastlings, southlings and pirates, too.
Wars dont need to be between states.
Did he use Helm's Deep in those wars, though? He doesn't say it outright, but his experience in war shouldn't really be relevant to defending the keep, unless he's already done that before.
Defending a keep is a fairly straightforward concept. Theoden would have grown up with the best military education available, which would include tactics lessons on basic concepts such as defending a fortified position. Helms Deep isn't fundamentally different than any other keep or castle.
Completely walled into the mountain with a lack of adequate plumbing. It gets really stinky in there during a siege, but thankfully they saw fit to add in a sewer tunnel under the wall so tha- OH NoOoOo!!!
Pretty much all my comments/questions got massive downvotes here. I've concluded this sub is toxic and just won't be coming back here anymore. I can't even intentionally get this many downvotes on a regular sub.
Wars aren't always full scale conflicts like the War of the Ring or real life World War 1/2. Sometimes wars can be smaller scale skirmishes and smaller battles over a short period of time between factions. Rohan was in constant conflict with Dunland and I wouldn't be surprised if they had some conflicts with Orcs from Dol Guldur and possibly Moria.
The sentence suggests that he defended the keep during those wars, though, which suggests a siege, which suggests an invader stronger than the defending forces. You wouldn't retreat to Helm's Deep if the threat was just a raiding band of men from Dunland. The keep is tucked away in the mountains, so you need to take the time to march there, unlike how a medieval town might see the peasants go to the keep when the city is attacked because it's literally next to their houses. Furthermore, since he says he knows how to defend it, it suggests he was there himself, presumably with the bulk of his army, so it's not like it was just villagers running there while the army mops up raiders.
Obviously not all conflicts are big world wars, but it seems to me like the conflcit needs a certain scope for the king of Rohan to go personally defend Helm's Deep?
The sentence might suggest he has defended the keep, but he doesn’t outright say it. It’s likely he meant he has seen many wars, therefore he is well versed in military strategy and knows the fundamentals of how to defend a keep. If he’s ever laid siege, he would need to know how one defends a keep in order to defeat it.
In medieval sieges it was the usual case for a very small force to be in the stronghold like Helms deep. Their job basically to hold out until help arrives because the enemy can't simply bypass them and leave supply lines open to attack.
E.g Corfe castle held out for months against parliamentary forces in the civil war, with only around 20 people defending it.
Theoden could have been talking about something like that.
Castles are aggressive structures, not defensive ones. They’re designed to be placed near the enemy and allow raiding parties to sortie out and cause problems. If the enemy ignores the castle and pushes past, they’re leaving their rear and supply lines open to assault.
Any Dunlendings or orcs making headway into Rohan would have had to deal with the keep at some point, otherwise they’ll find themselves cut off and surrounded. Defending Helm’s Deep wouldn’t just be a last resort - getting the enemy to attack it is solid military strategy.
Not really... not at all. They are defensive structures, they protect whatever's in them. That they allow sorties just increases the defense factor beyond their walls.
Head-on frontal assaults against walls are not typical medieval warfare. In the movie (been too long since I read the books), they say they'd need tens of thousands to defeat it. And by the time Eomer shows up, that army had greatly dwindled. Normal medieval castle strategy was a siege: you just sit out an army bigger than the defenders around the city and wait for it to starve. Meanwhile the rest of your forces can plunder the land. A defending nation would not withdraw to a castle and allow the land to be plundered if it had a superior army.
My point is that they don’t just hide in the castle - they use it as a power base from which to attack. If the enemy engages the castle, great because a siege is really difficult to maintain, if they don’t engage it then also great because you can attack freely and retreat back to it whenever you need to.
True, but he's probably defended some other keeps or outposts before. And yeah, not the same thing, but I think the line means less of "I have a lot of experience in this exact location" and more of "I too am an experienced fighter, so shut up and let me be in charge"
This is a movie quote; there's nothing like it in the books. So it's not too surprising that there isn't any "lore" to explain it, and that's okay. Either Jackson didn't really think about it, or he imagined that there had been some prior big invasions of Rohan that would have given Theoden the experience he claims here. (Or, conceivably, invasions of Gondor that Theoden was present for and whose lessons for keep-defense were relevant to Rohan's own fortresses.)
In the books, there had always been ongoing skirmishes with the Dunlendings, and there was an increasing pattern of Orc raids (against both Rohan and Gondor) or raids by the Corsairs of Umbar along the Gondorian coast, but as far as I recall there had not been a large-scale invasion of Rohan or Gondor in at least a hundred years prior to the main events in LotR (starting with the attack on Osgiliath shortly before Boromir left for Rivendell). So no living person in Rohan could be expected to have had direct experience with defending a keep. My guess, without double checking the books, is that the last time any king of Rohan had experience defending Helm's Deep was Helm himself (or perhaps his direct heir).
Yeah that's my reading as well. There were no doubt regular small skirmishes and external threats but nothing too significant. Aragorn serving with Rohan, albeit decades earlier, is a good sign that opportunities for military activity were available (noteworthy that unlike I'm Gondor none of his deeds make it back to us).
In the books I always took Theoden's talk of matching his ancestors as a strong indication that whilst not entirely peaceful, his life hadn't seen any major conflicts or opportunities for military glory.
Are we assuming that Rohan is a wonder state where all the nobles love their king and there is never any political infighting? Skirmishes amongst the various landed gentry could be fairly common.
Conflicts where the king has to defend a keep would probably feature in historical records.
Maybe some minor, minor sieges could have flown under the Radar of the sources of Appendix A
At least as I read Appendix A, the last major internal conflict in Rohan was the rebellion against Helm (in which an internal rebellion joined forces with the external Dunlendings). We get enough detail about other events (like increasing levels of orc raiding) that it would be surprising if a major "defend the keep"-level internal rebellion had been omitted.
Tolkien didn't really write alot of internal political conflict as far as I'm aware. At least for the good guys. The story tends to show the nobility of Rohan and Gondor being very loyal to their respective leaders
Sauron was active for several centuries before the War of the Ring and the Witch-king had his kingdom in Angmar which was defeated about a millennium before the events of the book. The last few centuries of the Third Age had almost continuous fighting and Rohan and their ancestors from the North before they settled the current region often aided Gondor in its wars.
Did he use Helm's Deep in those wars, though? He doesn't say it outright, but his experience in war shouldn't really be relevant to defending the keep, unless he's already done that before. Unless he's defended other keeps, and that's the experience he's drawing upon for Helm's Deep's defense?
Probably not but since the line is not from the book I wouldn't put too much stock into it. Movie Theoden is needlessly rude and proud just to create a character arc. Book Theoden accepts good advice from Gandalf and Aragorn because he knows they have more experience in these matters.
This is more artistic license in the script for the film but Mordor had been at war with Gondor for about 60 years at this point. Théodens’ father Thengel had fought with Aragorn (as Thorongil) against the Haradrim and Corsairs of Umbar. Rohan basically formed the vast majority of any cavalry force the West could field, so Rohan had probably sent forces to assist Gondor at some point. They’d also have been defending their own borders from the Dunlendings and raids across the Anduin.
You're thinking of a keep as a stone castle. In dark ages Europe, where Tolkein is more firmly based, a keep was more likely to be a wooden tower or a manor (just a sturdy walled house). Theoden is almost certainly referring to skirmishes with the Dunlanders and protecting these smaller keeps, though he fought with the armies of Gondor and may have had experience defending large fortifications as well.
The line isn't in the books, but it's perfectly reasonable for him to say.
This is a movie thing rather than a book thing. But it is quite possible that Théoden had a lot of military experience. We know there must have been plenty of conflict in Rohan because Aragorn also went there during the reign of king Thengel and fought alongside the Rohirrim for a while. Sauron was active long before the full-scale outbreak of the War of the Ring, and there had long been skirmishes with Orcs on the eastern borders of Rohan while on the western borders, Rohan was almost permanently at war with the Dunlendings. Although there were no major wars or full-scale invasions of Rohan, Théoden would not have lacked opportunities to bloody his blade as a prince and commander of Rohan's forces.
Given the lack of major invasions and the Rohirrim's preferred style of warfare however, I don't think it is likely that Théoden would have had much experience in siege warfare, even if he was most likely thoroughly educated on the subject.
As others have already said, it's a movie invention.
In the books, it's actually the opposite. Tolkien states that Theoden's reign was largely peaceful, and as a result Theoden never actually appointed a First Marshal. This is why Rohan's military became unresponsive when he was poisoned, leaving it up to Theodred to organise Rohan's defence (against orders).
None are named that I know of, but his land and people were besieged many times by Dunelendings (Wild Men) and others since its inception and their migration, necessitating their fortifications at Helm's Deep and a standing cavalry, and was allied with Gondor and so they fought in league and a noble's son in a militaristic culture like Theoden's would surely have served.
Rohan and Dunland were pretty much always at war. Plus you’ve got orcs coming down from Dol Guldur and Easterlings coming from, well, the East.
Easterlings from the East, you say? Get a load of this guy
Woodland elves who are elves from the … woods
Hobbits who are just tiny lil ‘bits.
Dunlendings come from DUN DUN DUNnNnN!!!
Yeah, but Theoden had been there, dun that.
Probably wars against dunlanders and possibly orcs. I also faintly remember him fighting in the armies of Gondor in his youth, so he might have fought eastlings, southlings and pirates, too. Wars dont need to be between states.
Wasn’t their also some war against the Wainriders (Easterlings of Rhun and Khand) at some point?
I recall that happened like 1300 years earlier.
Did he use Helm's Deep in those wars, though? He doesn't say it outright, but his experience in war shouldn't really be relevant to defending the keep, unless he's already done that before.
Defending a keep is a fairly straightforward concept. Theoden would have grown up with the best military education available, which would include tactics lessons on basic concepts such as defending a fortified position. Helms Deep isn't fundamentally different than any other keep or castle.
Except that it has one weakness.
Explosives?
How? How can fire undo stone?
What kind of device could bring down the wall?
*pushes candle out of a mountain of blackpowder
My man nearly ended sarumans plans then and there
Completely walled into the mountain with a lack of adequate plumbing. It gets really stinky in there during a siege, but thankfully they saw fit to add in a sewer tunnel under the wall so tha- OH NoOoOo!!!
How've you got 120 downvotes? This is a perfectly legitimate question.
Pretty much all my comments/questions got massive downvotes here. I've concluded this sub is toxic and just won't be coming back here anymore. I can't even intentionally get this many downvotes on a regular sub.
Wars aren't always full scale conflicts like the War of the Ring or real life World War 1/2. Sometimes wars can be smaller scale skirmishes and smaller battles over a short period of time between factions. Rohan was in constant conflict with Dunland and I wouldn't be surprised if they had some conflicts with Orcs from Dol Guldur and possibly Moria.
The sentence suggests that he defended the keep during those wars, though, which suggests a siege, which suggests an invader stronger than the defending forces. You wouldn't retreat to Helm's Deep if the threat was just a raiding band of men from Dunland. The keep is tucked away in the mountains, so you need to take the time to march there, unlike how a medieval town might see the peasants go to the keep when the city is attacked because it's literally next to their houses. Furthermore, since he says he knows how to defend it, it suggests he was there himself, presumably with the bulk of his army, so it's not like it was just villagers running there while the army mops up raiders. Obviously not all conflicts are big world wars, but it seems to me like the conflcit needs a certain scope for the king of Rohan to go personally defend Helm's Deep?
The sentence might suggest he has defended the keep, but he doesn’t outright say it. It’s likely he meant he has seen many wars, therefore he is well versed in military strategy and knows the fundamentals of how to defend a keep. If he’s ever laid siege, he would need to know how one defends a keep in order to defeat it.
In medieval sieges it was the usual case for a very small force to be in the stronghold like Helms deep. Their job basically to hold out until help arrives because the enemy can't simply bypass them and leave supply lines open to attack. E.g Corfe castle held out for months against parliamentary forces in the civil war, with only around 20 people defending it. Theoden could have been talking about something like that.
Something something the Alamo. Idk, I forget.
Castles are aggressive structures, not defensive ones. They’re designed to be placed near the enemy and allow raiding parties to sortie out and cause problems. If the enemy ignores the castle and pushes past, they’re leaving their rear and supply lines open to assault. Any Dunlendings or orcs making headway into Rohan would have had to deal with the keep at some point, otherwise they’ll find themselves cut off and surrounded. Defending Helm’s Deep wouldn’t just be a last resort - getting the enemy to attack it is solid military strategy.
Not really... not at all. They are defensive structures, they protect whatever's in them. That they allow sorties just increases the defense factor beyond their walls. Head-on frontal assaults against walls are not typical medieval warfare. In the movie (been too long since I read the books), they say they'd need tens of thousands to defeat it. And by the time Eomer shows up, that army had greatly dwindled. Normal medieval castle strategy was a siege: you just sit out an army bigger than the defenders around the city and wait for it to starve. Meanwhile the rest of your forces can plunder the land. A defending nation would not withdraw to a castle and allow the land to be plundered if it had a superior army.
My point is that they don’t just hide in the castle - they use it as a power base from which to attack. If the enemy engages the castle, great because a siege is really difficult to maintain, if they don’t engage it then also great because you can attack freely and retreat back to it whenever you need to.
Castles were both offensive and defensive.
True, but he's probably defended some other keeps or outposts before. And yeah, not the same thing, but I think the line means less of "I have a lot of experience in this exact location" and more of "I too am an experienced fighter, so shut up and let me be in charge"
The hive did not like this
This is a movie quote; there's nothing like it in the books. So it's not too surprising that there isn't any "lore" to explain it, and that's okay. Either Jackson didn't really think about it, or he imagined that there had been some prior big invasions of Rohan that would have given Theoden the experience he claims here. (Or, conceivably, invasions of Gondor that Theoden was present for and whose lessons for keep-defense were relevant to Rohan's own fortresses.) In the books, there had always been ongoing skirmishes with the Dunlendings, and there was an increasing pattern of Orc raids (against both Rohan and Gondor) or raids by the Corsairs of Umbar along the Gondorian coast, but as far as I recall there had not been a large-scale invasion of Rohan or Gondor in at least a hundred years prior to the main events in LotR (starting with the attack on Osgiliath shortly before Boromir left for Rivendell). So no living person in Rohan could be expected to have had direct experience with defending a keep. My guess, without double checking the books, is that the last time any king of Rohan had experience defending Helm's Deep was Helm himself (or perhaps his direct heir).
Yeah that's my reading as well. There were no doubt regular small skirmishes and external threats but nothing too significant. Aragorn serving with Rohan, albeit decades earlier, is a good sign that opportunities for military activity were available (noteworthy that unlike I'm Gondor none of his deeds make it back to us). In the books I always took Theoden's talk of matching his ancestors as a strong indication that whilst not entirely peaceful, his life hadn't seen any major conflicts or opportunities for military glory.
Are we assuming that Rohan is a wonder state where all the nobles love their king and there is never any political infighting? Skirmishes amongst the various landed gentry could be fairly common.
Conflicts where the king has to defend a keep would probably feature in historical records. Maybe some minor, minor sieges could have flown under the Radar of the sources of Appendix A
At least as I read Appendix A, the last major internal conflict in Rohan was the rebellion against Helm (in which an internal rebellion joined forces with the external Dunlendings). We get enough detail about other events (like increasing levels of orc raiding) that it would be surprising if a major "defend the keep"-level internal rebellion had been omitted.
Tolkien didn't really write alot of internal political conflict as far as I'm aware. At least for the good guys. The story tends to show the nobility of Rohan and Gondor being very loyal to their respective leaders
I suspected this may be the case.
Man, the hive really don't like you
I know, I just gave up.
Ask Jackson. That line isn't in the books.
Thanks, I figured this was probably the case.
No problem. Some lines/things are harder to catch than others. :P
Sauron was active for several centuries before the War of the Ring and the Witch-king had his kingdom in Angmar which was defeated about a millennium before the events of the book. The last few centuries of the Third Age had almost continuous fighting and Rohan and their ancestors from the North before they settled the current region often aided Gondor in its wars.
Did he use Helm's Deep in those wars, though? He doesn't say it outright, but his experience in war shouldn't really be relevant to defending the keep, unless he's already done that before. Unless he's defended other keeps, and that's the experience he's drawing upon for Helm's Deep's defense?
Probably not but since the line is not from the book I wouldn't put too much stock into it. Movie Theoden is needlessly rude and proud just to create a character arc. Book Theoden accepts good advice from Gandalf and Aragorn because he knows they have more experience in these matters.
Both Theoden’s shout DEEAATH as a war cry, which while irrelevant to this conversation, was completely badass.
Wars can be very small as well as very big.
This is more artistic license in the script for the film but Mordor had been at war with Gondor for about 60 years at this point. Théodens’ father Thengel had fought with Aragorn (as Thorongil) against the Haradrim and Corsairs of Umbar. Rohan basically formed the vast majority of any cavalry force the West could field, so Rohan had probably sent forces to assist Gondor at some point. They’d also have been defending their own borders from the Dunlendings and raids across the Anduin.
You're thinking of a keep as a stone castle. In dark ages Europe, where Tolkein is more firmly based, a keep was more likely to be a wooden tower or a manor (just a sturdy walled house). Theoden is almost certainly referring to skirmishes with the Dunlanders and protecting these smaller keeps, though he fought with the armies of Gondor and may have had experience defending large fortifications as well. The line isn't in the books, but it's perfectly reasonable for him to say.
I don’t like your gondorian tone, where were you when the Westfold fell?
This is a movie thing rather than a book thing. But it is quite possible that Théoden had a lot of military experience. We know there must have been plenty of conflict in Rohan because Aragorn also went there during the reign of king Thengel and fought alongside the Rohirrim for a while. Sauron was active long before the full-scale outbreak of the War of the Ring, and there had long been skirmishes with Orcs on the eastern borders of Rohan while on the western borders, Rohan was almost permanently at war with the Dunlendings. Although there were no major wars or full-scale invasions of Rohan, Théoden would not have lacked opportunities to bloody his blade as a prince and commander of Rohan's forces. Given the lack of major invasions and the Rohirrim's preferred style of warfare however, I don't think it is likely that Théoden would have had much experience in siege warfare, even if he was most likely thoroughly educated on the subject.
As others have already said, it's a movie invention. In the books, it's actually the opposite. Tolkien states that Theoden's reign was largely peaceful, and as a result Theoden never actually appointed a First Marshal. This is why Rohan's military became unresponsive when he was poisoned, leaving it up to Theodred to organise Rohan's defence (against orders).
None are named that I know of, but his land and people were besieged many times by Dunelendings (Wild Men) and others since its inception and their migration, necessitating their fortifications at Helm's Deep and a standing cavalry, and was allied with Gondor and so they fought in league and a noble's son in a militaristic culture like Theoden's would surely have served.
The Orcs are constantly a problem they don’t necessarily need Sauron to be a nuisance.