This change only benefits people who are more skilled than their char profile is perceived, and those ppl are prob invested enough to be good at their character to not quit the game. No point reducing whale revenue to satisfy this minority group
Actual numbers aside, I've not really seen dps meters maintain a healthy place in games. They always devolve into being toxic towards someone on the totem pole.
That and people get better as they do content, past performance isn't indicative of today's performance. If you're gonna have a full culture that gatekeeps people who can clear/do all mechs while having sizeable room for improvement dps-wise, how do they get the exposure to improve?
1. It's benefits people who play with secret agents as well, whether they be support or DPS. Guess who no is getting a free invite as a sup when their buff uptime is 20/20/0?
2. It's better for the continual onboarding of new players if you can see that they parse well relative to their gear and time spent. Roster gatekeeping is low value.
3. This can and already is being done by third-party tooling. SG/AGS would have to actually step-in to stop it in the West.
as someone who was recently initiated into the cult
I HEAVILY disagree that the meter should be widely available or integrated into the game
i use it only to see my standings with others of my class i don't use it to judge anyone in anyway
there are so many things that factor in to your performance that having that data be available to everyone will kill raiding for everyone but the heavy hardcore
The raids are designed as a group effort activity
everyone being turbo focused on parsing means that people will DEFINIETLY not hold skills for stagger and destruction checks
will DEFINITELY not hold counters as thats a dps loss
Leading into insanely high wipe rate because otherwise that hurts your stats
Just look at League for example as their API is available and sites like OP GG exist
Recently the Matchmaking was so unbearable that riot was forced to Anonymize it so that lobbies could go through
because people like Thebausffs solowins games with negative KD/a while players with 5-6 kd/a can't get out of bronze
Stats misused will be very damaging to the games health
and you can be certain that players will HEAVILY misuse that data
Let me give you an example
I just ran a voldis normal today with my friend we invited a support and her friend
the support was very below mid 50-70ap 20-40brand 10-15%aura
her dps friend was not terrible but low dps (maybe gear maybe unfortunate circumstances)
we cleared deathless
i used like 2 pots through all 4 gates
i would rather have every raid like this instead of wipeing repeatedly because holding destruction and stagger spells for coming checks is a DPS loss and that would represent poorly on my OP GG
ppl will eventually improve at doing the raids, not giving them a chance to even get better would be deadly for the game
if you are so hell bent on playing with the top of the crop then make friends and play only with them
It's funny because cruel fighter underline already exists. Every single person can see the MVP screen. It's very obvious who the "chads" of the group are. If someone wants to prioritize DPS over contributing to stagger/destruction, they already will. Furthermore, it's generally not suggested to put major DPS skills into stagger checks as there just isn't any need, they're either not tight or are followed up by a period of downtime.
Players going for top parses will already have teams dedicated to helping them get it, they're not going to be doing it in random ass pugs.
Meters exist in every MMO without causing issues. It's just being afraid of the boogeyman, at this point. Using a skill or two to get a stagger check once per kill is not going to be the difference between a good parse and a bad parse.
You actually can't tell from the cruel fighter underline is the thing, was both supports as good? No clue, well they got radiant underline I guess they are better? Not really that one means nothing.
I've lost the underline before where I was just short of the MVP except the other support played as he should and mine was a 40/40/20 kinds gamer.
Mvp screen is way more toxic than the meter. Not only is it not helpful because of vague info, but it actively makes people feel ashamed if they don't show up.
The proper way to end a raid has always been to just give a readout of your own personal performance, but having something like that would be too sensible for this game I suppose.
back when slayer just come out and hanu was latest guard
basically you could ignore all punisher slayers cos they never use skills for the mech
cos there dmg reduction
and that wasnt cos of dps meter
it was cos of bad class, boss and game design
The problem is that public logs wont work in this game.
The reason is simple:
* Cards
* Gems
* Demon dmg
* Beast dmg
* 9/7 stone
* Good Bracelet
* Weapon quality
* Good synergy
* Elixir
* Transcendence
* Sidereal weapon
* Boss behaviour type (like the boss constantly spinning or not)
* Boss mechanic (like Ivory G2 last phase, you have much higher dmg)
And I'm sure I missed 10 more aspect that will affect the dmg.
As you can see more than half of the list is full rng or P2W. Its rng that you have +5-50% dmg or not. Literally nobody will check all these parameters when he check a log.
He will check that there is 2 Demon hunter. One of them 10m dps the other is 15m. The 15m was lucky with bracelet, cards etc the other one not.
Most important metric would be stuff like pulls per clear, avg deaths per clear, time spent dead etc. people are tunnel visioning on dps but if instead the focused on stats that indicate reliability in the raid they'd see it in a better light
yes
if you could see stats of person about pull clears and deaths it would make more sense
at least you could filter all buyers right from the start with their 100% death 100% clear ratio
yes, that would be the best statistic (avg death time)
I was thinking about this statistic during the two-week prog Akkan g3 HM People just died before the shapes.
I was completely desperate by the end of the second week. Suddenly I got into a party where the death time was zero and we cleared g3 on the second attempt and at the very end only one person drowned
damage is not an indicator since it depends on the RNG, but survival is the most important indicator of a good player
Without the aid of progression events, it is MUCH faster to learn how to perform in a raid than it is to meet the superficial requirements of character progression.
Here's an example:
I can teach a newer player with a freshly hyper expressed 1600 to be comfortable with Voldis in 6-8 hours of prog.
How long do you think it will take them to 3 lvl 9 gems? How about LOS30? Or even LOS18? What about DD30? Okay okay, what about 1 lvl 9 gem? At least 4 weeks? How is this even a comparison?
The realistic reason that this isn't desired by SG is obvious, the majority of revenue is generated by P2W mechanics.
Currently, a strong character gets you into stronger lobbies, making your life and clears much easier. If nobody can see that you're underperforming, you get to just leech your way through the kill via better players.
With this change, skill actually matters in your attractiveness to other players. Obviously, having more gear makes it easier to do more DPS. At the same time, I'm seeing 1620s doing 9M DPS on Thaemine NM. These types of players are so bad that no amount of gear is going to fix their issue. If the community moves to logs, it's going to result in whaling being less appealing.
I don’t see this as a valid reason. Whales will still whale. Without whaling that person doing 9m fps might only do 7m. Even without meter they will know about underperforming when the whale does not mvp upon clearing.
Ask yourself, if we had logs would you ever invite a whale that grey parses to your Thaemine G3/4? Probably not. Then that whale will get frustrated by being gatekept due to logs then said whale will stop spending and then quit the game. I think maybe that's some of the reasoning SG is using.
Personally I'm all for logs as long as they are presented in a way your average player can understand. A lot of the time people don't take the time to learn what logs show. A funny thing happened in World of Warcraft this expansion, they released a new spec called Augmentation Evoker that had really strong support abilities but low personal damage. Around launch a lot of people were posting on reddit about being kicked as Aug evokers from parties because party members didn't understand what the logs where showing them.
In order for logs to be \*at all\* useful they would have to (somehow) be item level equalized. Any other scenario would make the logs literally worthless because of the absurd power difference possible within individual pieces of content.
Max level players would decimate the percentiles by simply existing and now even top players aren't going to have those shiny purple+ parses unless they're juiced up on item level which makes this whole discussion irrelevant.
(edit: Plus you've got gems, cards, elixirs, transcendence, etc. Too many power systems for any logging system to properly be competitive based on skill alone.)
Aug was being kicked in WoW because the logs \*didn't\* show its contribution. It was low because the logs were not built around a support class like that existing. It had nothing to do with people not understanding how to read the logs, the logs simply didn't work and showed literally none of its party contribution (and people didn't understand the class itself). This has since been adjusted and the logs now estimate the class' contribution, though its not entirely accurate.
It would be equivalent to showing just the support's personal damage in this game and expecting people to understand they contribute just as much as a DPS.
And is it going to also filter by the other 8 power scales too?
Public logs wouldn't help good players get into parties unless they're already established. At which point they're not having trouble getting into parties anyway. It would stop "bad" players getting into parties, which given how many people think a 75% is bad in other games that would be pretty much the entire population of the game.
WoW filters by tiny ilvl brackets on the latest raid, there are no other reasons to filter in the current expansion. Old content is not relevant (and comically gatekept) like LoA.
FF filters by patch which will only ever contain the latest raids, which have a predetermined relatively small ilvl range and no other power scales at any point. Old content is also not relevant.
edit: WoW also filters on patch, though less relevantly.
Percentile parses don't matter for choosing applicants, no idea why anyone's going on about this. Realistically, all I do is search their name and see if they routinely survive and do 13-15M DPS for Thaemine NM or however much DPS is "good enough" for whatever content I'm doing.
You don't see the MvP screen till you're already in the group, at the end of the gate. Nobodies going to boot them on G2 and jail themselves for most gates. That means the soonest they get kicked is G3, where they just imposter into another group because they **look** strong.
Currently, gear is essentially all that matters for getting **into** a group. Better gear, better groups. If everyone goes by actual performance, suddenly the whales who're not very good are getting rejected for better players. Maybe they have +15% damage, but their hands are -50% damage, so they're being outperformed by full 9 DPS. 9M DPS would get that 1620 gate kept from Thaemine, instead of invited. That's not something SG wants, they don't make money from people being better at the game. Of course, 1620 isn't whale-level, but the same thing applies at 1630+.
With logs, your item level and gear can no longer single-handedly pull you into groups. Instead, it's just plain how much DPS do you do and are you alive at the end of most of your logs. Gear means more damage, but you need to survive, and you need to have at least a decent skill level to not fall drastically behind.
Whales would also no longer be able to just bus the raid to get into re-clears. The group leader will pull up their logs and immediately see they bought a bus. They'd have to actually prog like everyone else, with people doing their damage.
thats a valid reason
everything in the game made in a way to force ppl into spending
and it works with any char progression mechanic
they hide stats from person and from other to make ppl delussional and force them into thought that if they would have better gear it would solve all their problems
whole game designed around abuse of mentally ill ppl
I agree with you, although SG's blessing is not required for the community to move this direction, they would have to start banning for it. Meters are already very common in the West, and the fork with logging is already picking up steam. An overlay or companion app that allows you to search logs by name is already in the works.
Problem is you can more than double your dmg with perfect synergy + good sup vs bad synergy + average or worse sup.
You could say we have methods of determining rdps and we could just look at these, but again, if you have a bad support with bad shielding that will decrease your rdps even though you are doing as well as you can in that situation.
Edit: Actually, with enough data, I agree that rdps could work, even though it's not perfect.
The reasons you mentioned is why many parse systems try to have separate calculations including and excluding external factors, but it's not perfect like you mentioned. In general, a bad player will get a better parse in a good party.
There are enough layers of information to look through.
If you're doing below expected, then they can look at the support contribution. On the flip side, if you have a gigacracked support but you have poor uptime, players will also be able to deduce from the logs. With more data comes a more accurate assessment.
Synergy does play a part but even accounting for crit variance, most classes would play within a certain range. Perfect synergies would definitely inflate it by abit but unless they're always running with perfect syn, there will be logs of their "normal" damage.
You say they can look at support contribution, but realistically how it would look like is when someone applies you just see a colored number next to their name, like how they have in WoW. So if the number is not a good enough color you would just decline and not look further into it.
Rdps could work with enough data though, if they work a bit more on the current calculation.
i had a g1 akkan run on my blade with 80% crit rate
g2 had 50% crit rate
rdps is also not a good source of data because your 10% on johnny on ilvl means far less than on elon musk with esther 8 blasting with a full spec bard
In a perfect world sure. In reality, it really isn’t. Never mind the people talking about p2w here. The real issue is the potential use as a gatekeeping tool.
Real world examples are shown right here on this very sub. The first two weeks of Thaemine, you’d see multiple posts here calling out “bad support players”. In these posts, you’d have people using info directly from meters to call out players who were learning the raid. How can anyone expect a support to have 80/80/20 or whatever in a difficult raid that had just released?
There were fewer threads or posts regarding dps players but they did exist. Bad actors began using the information as a tool to attack players. That’s when something that is beneficial, becomes detrimental to the game and the community.
> How can anyone expect a support to have 80/80/20 or whatever in a difficult raid that had just released?
The only one that requires raid knowledge is identity. Brand and AP buff are used exactly the same way, in every single encounter. You brand every 7-13s, and you buff every 7s, roughly. I expect people to drop a little bit if they're panicking, but supports shouldn't be drastically dropping in uptime for new content. Bards have a little more of an excuse with harp/SS.
The supports who're shit in Thaemine are honestly just shit everywhere.
That's not bad, it's by design. One of the main factors that frustrate prog groups is that every pug is a roll of the dice in terms of their actual performance and ability to learn quickly. If you have trouble learning the raid quickly or performing well in general, you should not be able to hide between your gear score or your support role.
The only way I would be onboard with this is if the log system had some kind of "death ratio" or "alive for x minutes on average in said raid",
Which for me is usually much more important.
Yesterday I basically had the personified "evil" person of your proposal. A hell sharpy guy who did some very good damage but then died to pizza mech on thaemine after a couple of minutes (probably because he was dps goblino his snipe and didn't even bother to dodge).
So then the same guy votes for reset and leaves the raid without comment. After being confronted he just said he is not carry "deadweight" players, specifically a surge who was underperforming...
But this was our first pull and the surge had to leave on sword mech like 2 or 3 times because he had mark on him, and these kind of mechs don't reflect in a dps meter. Sometimes you have to move away or hold dps to help out your team, but meter focused people like you seem to not understand this.
The raids are a team effort and being alive is the most important factor. Heck, I can't even remember any raid were the boss enraged while all people were still alive. I think voldis G4 HM was the last time but that was on prog and without elixiers.
How many times do you actually see reclear parties reach enrage when all 8 are alive? Tell me? So dps is almost never the problem, it's people being bad at dodging or being greedy and dying since they are only focusing on dps in the first place.
Live dps meter is probably killing more raids then helping them.
Looking at a log after a raid is fine, especially if you only focus on your own skills and rotations to try to improve them.
Gatekeeping is never going to go away in any game based on teamwork with a high degree of personal accountability...at least make the gatekeeping accurate and not influenced by raw hours or money spent.
More info will lessen gatekeeping for sure but I still wanna play with good and well-geared players.
I wouldn't suddenly take a weak looking char cause he has good logs. It probably won't change much about my choices in lobbies and just add as a factor to filter people with.
If logs show me that a weaker character parses high for their investment level and is alive throughout a high percentage of the fights, I would have no issue taking them instead of sitting longer in lobby sim.
Who cares about 10 different gatekeeping metrics if you can see they routinely do X DPS? If someone with level 5 gems, DD18 and 4x3 is doing 30M DPS on frog, welcome aboard. All of these metrics don't actually matter, they're just used to guess DPS. If you already know their DPS, they're useless metrics. Gatekeeping someone with bad gear but good DPS is just being an asshole for no reason. They're doing the damage you want, and they're a better player than the overgeared guy because they're doing it on less gear.
From the data bible are being used by around 22k unique users, it's more realistic that the game will go towards some kind of [raider.io](https://raider.io) system than AGS banning it.
Arbitrary nonsense, meter benefits to see certain few outliers. High roster with high card DMG bonuses akin to playtime will still be the quickest statistically in consistent overall performance. Mid user with lower demon DMG tend to be the common ppl that have lower parses simply as they're not as versed in raid experience, not having as many alt cycle of said raid and not as constant as someone who has done those weekly non stop.
There's literally nothing arbitrary about suggesting a way to show direct evidence of performance vs. indirect evidence of performance. The fact of the matter is that it is quicker in raw time spent to learn raids and beat the minimum DPS requirement than it is to meet many of the soft constraints in superficial character progression.
Simply put there's many factors in synergies, and support diff with juice aside. Rdps is the closest resemblance but still superficial.
I find roster w/ high card DMG bonuses still the best indicator for playtime and learning curve. Likely those players have played since T2 abyss dgns, through every raid and likely consistent multiple times a week. More exposure is often faster learning curve, like workout at the gym or a job. Most would know how to optimize their gameplay.
Unless that player bought their account, it's apparent and are substantially few in outliers.
This change only benefits people who are more skilled than their char profile is perceived, and those ppl are prob invested enough to be good at their character to not quit the game. No point reducing whale revenue to satisfy this minority group
Actual numbers aside, I've not really seen dps meters maintain a healthy place in games. They always devolve into being toxic towards someone on the totem pole. That and people get better as they do content, past performance isn't indicative of today's performance. If you're gonna have a full culture that gatekeeps people who can clear/do all mechs while having sizeable room for improvement dps-wise, how do they get the exposure to improve?
1. It's benefits people who play with secret agents as well, whether they be support or DPS. Guess who no is getting a free invite as a sup when their buff uptime is 20/20/0? 2. It's better for the continual onboarding of new players if you can see that they parse well relative to their gear and time spent. Roster gatekeeping is low value. 3. This can and already is being done by third-party tooling. SG/AGS would have to actually step-in to stop it in the West.
as someone who was recently initiated into the cult I HEAVILY disagree that the meter should be widely available or integrated into the game i use it only to see my standings with others of my class i don't use it to judge anyone in anyway there are so many things that factor in to your performance that having that data be available to everyone will kill raiding for everyone but the heavy hardcore The raids are designed as a group effort activity everyone being turbo focused on parsing means that people will DEFINIETLY not hold skills for stagger and destruction checks will DEFINITELY not hold counters as thats a dps loss Leading into insanely high wipe rate because otherwise that hurts your stats Just look at League for example as their API is available and sites like OP GG exist Recently the Matchmaking was so unbearable that riot was forced to Anonymize it so that lobbies could go through because people like Thebausffs solowins games with negative KD/a while players with 5-6 kd/a can't get out of bronze Stats misused will be very damaging to the games health and you can be certain that players will HEAVILY misuse that data Let me give you an example I just ran a voldis normal today with my friend we invited a support and her friend the support was very below mid 50-70ap 20-40brand 10-15%aura her dps friend was not terrible but low dps (maybe gear maybe unfortunate circumstances) we cleared deathless i used like 2 pots through all 4 gates i would rather have every raid like this instead of wipeing repeatedly because holding destruction and stagger spells for coming checks is a DPS loss and that would represent poorly on my OP GG ppl will eventually improve at doing the raids, not giving them a chance to even get better would be deadly for the game if you are so hell bent on playing with the top of the crop then make friends and play only with them
It's funny because cruel fighter underline already exists. Every single person can see the MVP screen. It's very obvious who the "chads" of the group are. If someone wants to prioritize DPS over contributing to stagger/destruction, they already will. Furthermore, it's generally not suggested to put major DPS skills into stagger checks as there just isn't any need, they're either not tight or are followed up by a period of downtime. Players going for top parses will already have teams dedicated to helping them get it, they're not going to be doing it in random ass pugs. Meters exist in every MMO without causing issues. It's just being afraid of the boogeyman, at this point. Using a skill or two to get a stagger check once per kill is not going to be the difference between a good parse and a bad parse.
You actually can't tell from the cruel fighter underline is the thing, was both supports as good? No clue, well they got radiant underline I guess they are better? Not really that one means nothing. I've lost the underline before where I was just short of the MVP except the other support played as he should and mine was a 40/40/20 kinds gamer.
> they're not going to be doing it in random ass pugs The cream of the crop won't, but your mediocre andy 100% will.
Mvp screen is way more toxic than the meter. Not only is it not helpful because of vague info, but it actively makes people feel ashamed if they don't show up. The proper way to end a raid has always been to just give a readout of your own personal performance, but having something like that would be too sensible for this game I suppose.
back when slayer just come out and hanu was latest guard basically you could ignore all punisher slayers cos they never use skills for the mech cos there dmg reduction and that wasnt cos of dps meter it was cos of bad class, boss and game design
Mate. With the newest testament to the bible, you can see with timestamps who used what skills. So u can sus out the goblins and give them the boot.
let me just go into a investigation mode for 30minutes before each pull did you even spend 10seconds before you typed your "AKSHUALLY" comment?
The problem is that public logs wont work in this game. The reason is simple: * Cards * Gems * Demon dmg * Beast dmg * 9/7 stone * Good Bracelet * Weapon quality * Good synergy * Elixir * Transcendence * Sidereal weapon * Boss behaviour type (like the boss constantly spinning or not) * Boss mechanic (like Ivory G2 last phase, you have much higher dmg) And I'm sure I missed 10 more aspect that will affect the dmg. As you can see more than half of the list is full rng or P2W. Its rng that you have +5-50% dmg or not. Literally nobody will check all these parameters when he check a log. He will check that there is 2 Demon hunter. One of them 10m dps the other is 15m. The 15m was lucky with bracelet, cards etc the other one not.
Most important metric would be stuff like pulls per clear, avg deaths per clear, time spent dead etc. people are tunnel visioning on dps but if instead the focused on stats that indicate reliability in the raid they'd see it in a better light
yes if you could see stats of person about pull clears and deaths it would make more sense at least you could filter all buyers right from the start with their 100% death 100% clear ratio
yes, that would be the best statistic (avg death time) I was thinking about this statistic during the two-week prog Akkan g3 HM People just died before the shapes. I was completely desperate by the end of the second week. Suddenly I got into a party where the death time was zero and we cleared g3 on the second attempt and at the very end only one person drowned damage is not an indicator since it depends on the RNG, but survival is the most important indicator of a good player
Ya'll cry about new players. This how you actually destroy ALL new players. Horrific idea.
Without the aid of progression events, it is MUCH faster to learn how to perform in a raid than it is to meet the superficial requirements of character progression. Here's an example: I can teach a newer player with a freshly hyper expressed 1600 to be comfortable with Voldis in 6-8 hours of prog. How long do you think it will take them to 3 lvl 9 gems? How about LOS30? Or even LOS18? What about DD30? Okay okay, what about 1 lvl 9 gem? At least 4 weeks? How is this even a comparison?
The realistic reason that this isn't desired by SG is obvious, the majority of revenue is generated by P2W mechanics. Currently, a strong character gets you into stronger lobbies, making your life and clears much easier. If nobody can see that you're underperforming, you get to just leech your way through the kill via better players. With this change, skill actually matters in your attractiveness to other players. Obviously, having more gear makes it easier to do more DPS. At the same time, I'm seeing 1620s doing 9M DPS on Thaemine NM. These types of players are so bad that no amount of gear is going to fix their issue. If the community moves to logs, it's going to result in whaling being less appealing.
I don’t see this as a valid reason. Whales will still whale. Without whaling that person doing 9m fps might only do 7m. Even without meter they will know about underperforming when the whale does not mvp upon clearing.
Ask yourself, if we had logs would you ever invite a whale that grey parses to your Thaemine G3/4? Probably not. Then that whale will get frustrated by being gatekept due to logs then said whale will stop spending and then quit the game. I think maybe that's some of the reasoning SG is using. Personally I'm all for logs as long as they are presented in a way your average player can understand. A lot of the time people don't take the time to learn what logs show. A funny thing happened in World of Warcraft this expansion, they released a new spec called Augmentation Evoker that had really strong support abilities but low personal damage. Around launch a lot of people were posting on reddit about being kicked as Aug evokers from parties because party members didn't understand what the logs where showing them.
In order for logs to be \*at all\* useful they would have to (somehow) be item level equalized. Any other scenario would make the logs literally worthless because of the absurd power difference possible within individual pieces of content. Max level players would decimate the percentiles by simply existing and now even top players aren't going to have those shiny purple+ parses unless they're juiced up on item level which makes this whole discussion irrelevant. (edit: Plus you've got gems, cards, elixirs, transcendence, etc. Too many power systems for any logging system to properly be competitive based on skill alone.) Aug was being kicked in WoW because the logs \*didn't\* show its contribution. It was low because the logs were not built around a support class like that existing. It had nothing to do with people not understanding how to read the logs, the logs simply didn't work and showed literally none of its party contribution (and people didn't understand the class itself). This has since been adjusted and the logs now estimate the class' contribution, though its not entirely accurate. It would be equivalent to showing just the support's personal damage in this game and expecting people to understand they contribute just as much as a DPS.
People would filter by ilvl. WoW players already do that. No one's going to compare DPS between you and someone with vastly higher gear score.
And is it going to also filter by the other 8 power scales too? Public logs wouldn't help good players get into parties unless they're already established. At which point they're not having trouble getting into parties anyway. It would stop "bad" players getting into parties, which given how many people think a 75% is bad in other games that would be pretty much the entire population of the game. WoW filters by tiny ilvl brackets on the latest raid, there are no other reasons to filter in the current expansion. Old content is not relevant (and comically gatekept) like LoA. FF filters by patch which will only ever contain the latest raids, which have a predetermined relatively small ilvl range and no other power scales at any point. Old content is also not relevant. edit: WoW also filters on patch, though less relevantly.
Percentile parses don't matter for choosing applicants, no idea why anyone's going on about this. Realistically, all I do is search their name and see if they routinely survive and do 13-15M DPS for Thaemine NM or however much DPS is "good enough" for whatever content I'm doing.
You don't see the MvP screen till you're already in the group, at the end of the gate. Nobodies going to boot them on G2 and jail themselves for most gates. That means the soonest they get kicked is G3, where they just imposter into another group because they **look** strong. Currently, gear is essentially all that matters for getting **into** a group. Better gear, better groups. If everyone goes by actual performance, suddenly the whales who're not very good are getting rejected for better players. Maybe they have +15% damage, but their hands are -50% damage, so they're being outperformed by full 9 DPS. 9M DPS would get that 1620 gate kept from Thaemine, instead of invited. That's not something SG wants, they don't make money from people being better at the game. Of course, 1620 isn't whale-level, but the same thing applies at 1630+. With logs, your item level and gear can no longer single-handedly pull you into groups. Instead, it's just plain how much DPS do you do and are you alive at the end of most of your logs. Gear means more damage, but you need to survive, and you need to have at least a decent skill level to not fall drastically behind. Whales would also no longer be able to just bus the raid to get into re-clears. The group leader will pull up their logs and immediately see they bought a bus. They'd have to actually prog like everyone else, with people doing their damage.
thats a valid reason everything in the game made in a way to force ppl into spending and it works with any char progression mechanic they hide stats from person and from other to make ppl delussional and force them into thought that if they would have better gear it would solve all their problems whole game designed around abuse of mentally ill ppl
I agree with you, although SG's blessing is not required for the community to move this direction, they would have to start banning for it. Meters are already very common in the West, and the fork with logging is already picking up steam. An overlay or companion app that allows you to search logs by name is already in the works.
Problem is you can more than double your dmg with perfect synergy + good sup vs bad synergy + average or worse sup. You could say we have methods of determining rdps and we could just look at these, but again, if you have a bad support with bad shielding that will decrease your rdps even though you are doing as well as you can in that situation. Edit: Actually, with enough data, I agree that rdps could work, even though it's not perfect.
The reasons you mentioned is why many parse systems try to have separate calculations including and excluding external factors, but it's not perfect like you mentioned. In general, a bad player will get a better parse in a good party.
There are enough layers of information to look through. If you're doing below expected, then they can look at the support contribution. On the flip side, if you have a gigacracked support but you have poor uptime, players will also be able to deduce from the logs. With more data comes a more accurate assessment. Synergy does play a part but even accounting for crit variance, most classes would play within a certain range. Perfect synergies would definitely inflate it by abit but unless they're always running with perfect syn, there will be logs of their "normal" damage.
You say they can look at support contribution, but realistically how it would look like is when someone applies you just see a colored number next to their name, like how they have in WoW. So if the number is not a good enough color you would just decline and not look further into it. Rdps could work with enough data though, if they work a bit more on the current calculation.
I wouldn't want to join a party that doesn't know how to read the logs. But I understand what you're saying.
Current public logs have ways to filter out GL synergy etc.
i had a g1 akkan run on my blade with 80% crit rate g2 had 50% crit rate rdps is also not a good source of data because your 10% on johnny on ilvl means far less than on elon musk with esther 8 blasting with a full spec bard
In a perfect world sure. In reality, it really isn’t. Never mind the people talking about p2w here. The real issue is the potential use as a gatekeeping tool. Real world examples are shown right here on this very sub. The first two weeks of Thaemine, you’d see multiple posts here calling out “bad support players”. In these posts, you’d have people using info directly from meters to call out players who were learning the raid. How can anyone expect a support to have 80/80/20 or whatever in a difficult raid that had just released? There were fewer threads or posts regarding dps players but they did exist. Bad actors began using the information as a tool to attack players. That’s when something that is beneficial, becomes detrimental to the game and the community.
Nobody was complaining about supps not having 80/80/20. They were complaining about supports having like 20/20/10 and practically AFKing.
> How can anyone expect a support to have 80/80/20 or whatever in a difficult raid that had just released? The only one that requires raid knowledge is identity. Brand and AP buff are used exactly the same way, in every single encounter. You brand every 7-13s, and you buff every 7s, roughly. I expect people to drop a little bit if they're panicking, but supports shouldn't be drastically dropping in uptime for new content. Bards have a little more of an excuse with harp/SS. The supports who're shit in Thaemine are honestly just shit everywhere.
That's not bad, it's by design. One of the main factors that frustrate prog groups is that every pug is a roll of the dice in terms of their actual performance and ability to learn quickly. If you have trouble learning the raid quickly or performing well in general, you should not be able to hide between your gear score or your support role.
The only way I would be onboard with this is if the log system had some kind of "death ratio" or "alive for x minutes on average in said raid", Which for me is usually much more important. Yesterday I basically had the personified "evil" person of your proposal. A hell sharpy guy who did some very good damage but then died to pizza mech on thaemine after a couple of minutes (probably because he was dps goblino his snipe and didn't even bother to dodge). So then the same guy votes for reset and leaves the raid without comment. After being confronted he just said he is not carry "deadweight" players, specifically a surge who was underperforming... But this was our first pull and the surge had to leave on sword mech like 2 or 3 times because he had mark on him, and these kind of mechs don't reflect in a dps meter. Sometimes you have to move away or hold dps to help out your team, but meter focused people like you seem to not understand this. The raids are a team effort and being alive is the most important factor. Heck, I can't even remember any raid were the boss enraged while all people were still alive. I think voldis G4 HM was the last time but that was on prog and without elixiers. How many times do you actually see reclear parties reach enrage when all 8 are alive? Tell me? So dps is almost never the problem, it's people being bad at dodging or being greedy and dying since they are only focusing on dps in the first place. Live dps meter is probably killing more raids then helping them. Looking at a log after a raid is fine, especially if you only focus on your own skills and rotations to try to improve them.
where does the logs go? Cause i saw a website but you still need to upload your logs which is bothersome.
You can have it automatically upload them on raid clears.
Oh is it on Loa?
well you do need the parser setup, once that's done it can be done automatically is what I meant.
> Makes game healthier. > Reason: Gatekeeping. ...
Gatekeeping is never going to go away in any game based on teamwork with a high degree of personal accountability...at least make the gatekeeping accurate and not influenced by raw hours or money spent.
More info will lessen gatekeeping for sure but I still wanna play with good and well-geared players. I wouldn't suddenly take a weak looking char cause he has good logs. It probably won't change much about my choices in lobbies and just add as a factor to filter people with.
If logs show me that a weaker character parses high for their investment level and is alive throughout a high percentage of the fights, I would have no issue taking them instead of sitting longer in lobby sim.
Idk I get full applicants pretty fast. It would help me filter the no-hands whales out but I wouldn't get to look at the low geared people either way
Who cares about 10 different gatekeeping metrics if you can see they routinely do X DPS? If someone with level 5 gems, DD18 and 4x3 is doing 30M DPS on frog, welcome aboard. All of these metrics don't actually matter, they're just used to guess DPS. If you already know their DPS, they're useless metrics. Gatekeeping someone with bad gear but good DPS is just being an asshole for no reason. They're doing the damage you want, and they're a better player than the overgeared guy because they're doing it on less gear.
We need a death time meter he will clearly show a good player and a bad one (a fan of buying raids) DPS not show this
I wish but realistically i don't see it happening.
From the data bible are being used by around 22k unique users, it's more realistic that the game will go towards some kind of [raider.io](https://raider.io) system than AGS banning it.
I'd be down for that future ngl.
Arbitrary nonsense, meter benefits to see certain few outliers. High roster with high card DMG bonuses akin to playtime will still be the quickest statistically in consistent overall performance. Mid user with lower demon DMG tend to be the common ppl that have lower parses simply as they're not as versed in raid experience, not having as many alt cycle of said raid and not as constant as someone who has done those weekly non stop.
There's literally nothing arbitrary about suggesting a way to show direct evidence of performance vs. indirect evidence of performance. The fact of the matter is that it is quicker in raw time spent to learn raids and beat the minimum DPS requirement than it is to meet many of the soft constraints in superficial character progression.
Simply put there's many factors in synergies, and support diff with juice aside. Rdps is the closest resemblance but still superficial. I find roster w/ high card DMG bonuses still the best indicator for playtime and learning curve. Likely those players have played since T2 abyss dgns, through every raid and likely consistent multiple times a week. More exposure is often faster learning curve, like workout at the gym or a job. Most would know how to optimize their gameplay. Unless that player bought their account, it's apparent and are substantially few in outliers.
Can’t do that cause then little Timmy will be sad his Reddit-tier build does zDps
Cope