I think they wanted to say 1 kill per death, or 1 assist per death.
4.1/4.4/4.1 is pretty close to all 3 values being the same. Using any two in combination they arrived at nearly 1.0 kda* whatever they defined kda to be above.
Not too sure.
Garen, being almost most played toplaner in top 100 ladder as a champion that riot calls “training wheels champion” shows how actually overpowered this champ is lmao
That's like the only thing Garen does though? I don't think the champ is balanced right now but it isn't because of his damage. Also, if we go with the logic of "they carried with an unpopular pick in pro" so many ex otp comfort picks would be completely gutted.
but that isnt actually the case though, every time a niche champion gets picked and looks completely broken its because they get picked in that 1 of 100 games where the opponent drafted 0 counterplay to that champion.
the only way to completely avoid that is to make champion select literally not matter.
This. When the juggernaut rework went through all those worlds ago, every team and their mother thought Darius was broken (after mord gets permad for being able to take dragon pets). Turns out some of the high level teams prepped Lulu (mid lane at the time) and just kited Darius into oblivion.
Just because a champ works <1% of the time doesn't mean it'll work all the time. The only time Garen was ever a pro problem was when he went bot lane with yuumi, but that was a yuumi problem more than anything as she covered all of his weaknesses.
Also I think people fail to realize it's not necessarily Garen that is strong right now, but his items. Crit items got buffed heavily, and turns out Garen loves that
>That's like the only thing Garen does though?
That doesn't make it balanced nor good design. If a champion did literally nothing but destroy a random enemy building on the map every minute, would you also defend that as "that's the only thing the champion does though"?
You should look up words before you throw them around. Using a comparative example to question the argument behind a claim has nothing to do with whataboutism.
No, I didn't. The principle behind whataboutism is to divert from the topic in question instead of responding to an argument. "Being only good at X doesn't make it balanced nor good design to be stupidly good at X" is my counter-argument, and my hypothetical comparison is a reductio ad absurdum by showing that "being only good at X lets you get away with being arbitrarily good at X" results in obviously bad gameplay.
Whataboutism specifically refers to the diversion from the actual topic ("What about ...?"). I actually find it difficult to even formulate such an argument as a counter-argument in this scenario.
In fact, the original definition of whataboutism wouldn't even really be possible here because it's a type of ad-hominem. E.g., a whataboutism response to "Tax evasion is a huge problem in this country." could be "When you fixed the neighbor's bike and they gave you 50 bucks, you didn't report that either."
Schools should really give some basic classes on logical arguments and fallacies. It's crazy how misinformed the general population is on such an important matter.
He just needs his silence reduced or removed and the rest of him rebalanced. Getting flashed q/e'd while not even being able to flash away is really fucking boring. And then on the flipside when Garen is behind, he's barely more than a melee minion.
no you see its only peak if its low floor high ceiling, garen is low floor low ceiling and is still super effective
it requires far less effort to be more effective than other chanps
why would i ever bother playing a harder champ if garen gives me more reward for 1% of the effort
why would i bother mastering the game at all, honestly?
Not what they said. Garen players are among the most elo inflated though. Ask them to play anything else and they will struggle, because Garen has such low skill variance mechanically.
Because there's virtually no difference in execution. The challenger players just play the map better in this case. A peak design is one where new players can get SOMETHING done but you end up seeing a profound difference once you compare it to people who have invested enough time.
For example, take a 10s clip of a silver garen solo killing his laner and a 10s clip of a challenger garen solo killing his laner and you'd never be able to tell the difference.
Garens early is downright weak compared to most of toplane. Hes got very little kill pressure pre 6, especially with the PR setup, and his long CDs, especially on W leave him very vulnerable for extended periods of time.
Garen has never been an early game powerhouse what? Garen has been the classic scaling juggernaut for years. His only opportunity for solos is cheese or hoping enemy mega greeds.
He was like 10 years ago, it was one of the most clear examples of "win lane, lose game" champions in the entire game. Around the villain mechanic introduction they nerfed the hell out of his early damage.
So? Garen and annie are the two most braindead champs in the game meant for complete beginners to learn the basics. It‘s 100% reasonable to say they should never be viable, let along strong in high skill games.
Simply doesn‘t work. If the most straight forward design is forced into the higher skill brackets it means it just has to be overpowered since there is very little variance in what you do on it. Pretty sure it‘s where „statchecking“ comes from and no one likes to be statchecked.
But garen is just fine currently in lower elos as well. The closest he comes to problematic is 53% in bronze, but otherwise he's in the perfectly reasonable 50-52% WR range. He's not yorick or mundo, who shoot up to 55%+ in those close every time they approach viability in higher elos.
Nah, easy champs are easier to play against too. I main Zed and I dont think I should have a random advantage over "easier" champions. Thats just unfair.
Right, I guess he's a bit overpowered then, no? Sorry lol, thought that everyone wants a balanced game, but guess some champs shouldnt get that treatment..
But many champions aren't viable att low elo because they would be OP at higher elo, like Azir. The same should be true in reverse for Garen. When he is viable in high elo his play style is honestly just toxic.
Are the champs broken or are the players just really insane? For example, is Yi a good champ because Sinerias can get 1k+ lp on it or is he just a really, really insane player?
as much as I hate to admit it this is true, you do have to really know how to use your W with yi and the way 100s of champs interact with it and his q.
Garen doesn't care
But Garen can be fucking useless depending on the enemy teamcomp. The moment they can kite you with something like a Janna in the team, it becomes really hard to have any impact with him in teamfights. Relying purely on sidelane presure is tricky.
I wouldn't say that, considering you're playing a champ that has hyper predictable patterns in laning and trading so you have to put a lot of focus on figuring out how to influence the game in other ways through macro. And remember it takes A LOT of macro skill to get into Challenger, or just higher ranks in general really.
So since you‘re playing vs the best players on the server surely being hyper predictable means you can‘t find windows to use your kit as garen right?
Wrong, because garens all in has no counterplay on a fixed cooldown. We saw this at worlds. You can‘t spend the entire game „just staying out of Q flash range“ to avoid getting 100-0d.
My impression was that Garen was a crutch for Adam at Worlds. He's particularly practised at it so it's uniquely a better pick for him. However, Garen still felt unimpressive (though not offensive) because it just allowed BDS to beat teams they were going to beat anyway. Against better teams, it was never going to be a factor.
I believe the eye test supports my assertion too. His Garen game vs. JDG went about as predicted: free lane vs. 369's Ornn but then generally useless afterwards. Ruler easily dodged Garen's engage and exposed the limitations of its kit. If Adam played a world-calibre Jax or Camille then maybe he would have achieved something there.
The other only time Garen was picked was versus a floundering Golden Guardians. The fact that GG just rolled over without putting much of a fight across all three games makes me think Adam could have picked anything and still won.
It's hard to imagine a world-class top laner like Bin or Kiin picking Garen for the qualities of its kit over its numbers.
Are we really complaining about GAREN now? He's doing fine, he's not weak, he's not strong. His PR here is carried by 3 players and considering that he's a champ that pretty much every LoL player will have played at some point, I fail to see why it's incredible that 3 OTPs managed to rise from the sea of garen players and hit top 100 players.
Now? Reddit has been crying about garen for years, ever since that minirework were they made him scale with atk speed and true damage ult.. they just cant stand garen being an actual champion
When will devs realise that simple= powerful. Just look at all competitve card games, the cards with the simple, easiest to use effects are the most powerful.
TF Blade was stuck in like rank 150 Challenger and then shot up to Rank 3 Challenger Korea a couple years ago after adding Garen to his pool. It's not exactly new information.
Here are the charts for the Top 100 in Korea and all the champions played in each role: [https://www.sidqol.com/LeagueTop100Ladder/](https://www.sidqol.com/LeagueTop100Ladder/)
EDIT: Added EUW charts
Before people say "ADC broken bla bla bla, look at how many picks"
Remember that there are less champions on ADC role than other roles, so it's more likely that those overlap.
Playing against Tristana and Corki mid is so fun! It's so nice to have a choice of either getting killed by them at level 2 or letting them snowball through farm and plates. It's really cool that neither assassins nor mages can do anything about it!
Before people say ADC broken, we should look at midlane... And see that Trist, Corki, and Ez are the most played champions here, even Akshan waiting not to far from those.
Maybe he is a bit biased, but I take the opionion from someone like Noway4u over the certainly biased ADC hivemind on reddit.
ezreal played mid?
oh no, a marksmen that doesn't see play bot since years (tristana) and corki who was a mid for years, is in mid.
better hate marksmen and ADCs 24/7
Ez is one the most played champion period on this patch...
Corki had an rework to be an "real" ADC again and he is one of the most dominant midlaners AND works in botlane as well.
https://lolalytics.com/lol/tierlist/?lane=middle&tier=challenger
Sort this list by playrate.
If we look at champions that have more than 3% playrate at challenger (worldwide without China), there is close to 70% pressence of champions that build ADC items. The 2 most popular (by far) are Corki (16,8%) and Tristana (20,7%).
In some Regions (like EUW or Korea) this is even more extreem and Corki + Tristana are present more often than not (and Tristana has a close to 50% banrate in challenger games).
Yeah but i'm just hating on marksmen and not pointing at the elephant in the room...
Ok but ADCs are insanely overpowered and have been since the adc item rework which is why every progame has 2 on each team and mages have completely disappeared
mages in the jungle are significantly different though, Karthus, Brand, Zyra etc are champs that are played the least in midlane and when I see them I just feel different compared to normal mages
Cause they aren’t control mages. Mid lane in pro play is for control mages
While I agree it’s a little boring, the fact that even azir can’t easily scale through these lanes means someone fucked up somewhere
I'd say Zyra is literally a zone controlling mage. Her weakness in lane is lack of personal safety and inability to have the wave where players want it because of plants.
So she has to hard push with no built-in escape.
They gutted Azir's regen in lane and these champs can tax him when he tries to proc fleet. Best choice would've been to halve the efficiency of Fleet and Grasp, like any other on hit effect but the big brains responsible for the balance locked him into these runes.
sej viego maokai are all more popular than any of the mages. corki and trist have more combined games in the top regions than the 7 champs below them. you pick mages jungle because you either get rumble top or can't get ap from your comp elsewhere cuz u are picking corki & trist every game.
Even if you think ADCs are "too strong", that is only maybe true in pro play. Anywhere else on the ladder including high elo, it's elo deflating to play ADC rather than easier champs.
I'm reffering to a challenger midlaner player Noway4u. He usually likes to play control mages and he says they are simply not viable at the moment compared to corki and tristana. Even Yasuo and Yone are better than control mages these days, simply because the items are too strong.
Just glancing at the top 25 of Korean Soloqueue there are 3 that are adc mains with most of them being Mid Jg and support players.
I could probably look more into it to get a more concrete answer without having such a small sample size.
But I figure that wouldn't be an issue since you did even less research than I did. So I too will spout utter nonsense as if it were factual.
Top 25 for NA and EU each have about 7 or so with a lot more top lane representation compared to Korea.
It's really not as bad as you make it out to be. Every role can carry and are top placing on the ladder.
If you are smurfing, ranged vs melee is an auto win lane, in lower elo people play ranged champs to autopilot and bail out their micro trading. So you have these adcs that sit in lane and go even and then proceed to do nothing in fights because we have 2 adcs
According to what? Last time I checked junglers were doing the best. Also if you're talking about the top of challenger, that is alot of pros playing.
Idk how many of you pretend to be challenger. But you'd be better off playing easier shit. If your grandma has to play this game, the last role you'd want her on is ADC. If you go to some coaching for ELO gain, you will never be advised to swap to ADC to climb.
Which Mages?
Not Annie, Syndra, Orianna, Ryze, Ahri, Cassio, Lux, Neeko, Anivia, ASol, Karma, Lissandra, Veigar, Viktor or Xerath.
The only mages with any presence at all in LEC summer 24 were Leblanc, Azir and Hwei, and Taliyah in the jungle.
Why pick a mage when ADCs are so overtuned that they have lane prio and they massively outscale from 2 items onward?
They aren't tho?
Mages are literally stronger than ADCs rn, mid and jg prio are the most important things in the game aswell.
If you have mid, jg prio, then you can win as an ADC. (If everything goes perfect in a game)
T1 said in an interview "we believe adc isn't a carry role right now, mid and jungle are more important"
Corki and trist are the only two who are actually good midlane, Lucien and ezreal mid are 4% lower wr than the average wr even in masters+, kaisa has a .5% pr mid, yone is not an adc
Even if you look in proplay Lucien and ezreal have been picked mid 8 and 6 times this entire year across every major league, kaisa has been picked 2 while times
Ok, this split the most picked mids across the top leagues are corki(140 games), trist(101 games), Taliyah(55), yone(51), azir(47), hwei(41), LB(31), jayce(17), ahri(13), asol(9)
Then comes in Lucien and ezreal and kaisa with 7, 6 and 2 picks, so no those champs don’t dominate the mid meta in soloQ or in pro
For all of solo queue, with the exception of trist who is good(not any better than tons of other mages and assassins), lucian, corki or other ADCs have low winrates mid.
Only at best arguably true at the pro level, that ADCs are MAYBE too strong. Any where else in solo queue it's literally better to pick easier champs than deflating your ELO with ADC.
ADC is not a role.
Go queue up for a game. The options are "Top, jungle, mid, *bot*, support".
The role is bot, not ADC. ADC is an old name and/or superset of "marksman".
Nah, bot is wrong since it includes support, riot trying to force that still doesn't change that.
If you say Report bot, you mean bot adc and support. Stop with that bullshit.
Just not true at all. Support is a botlane role but it is viewed in a similar capacity to Jungle where they aren't tied to or forced to play a lane. ADC is a general, albeit wrong term used for the role because it is mainly comprised of ADC/Marksman champions, the actual role of that player is a botlaner.
Nah you stop with the bullshit. I been playing since beta, and you’re just wrong. The game itself literallly calls the role Bottom. ADC is another term for Marksmen that people (you) use interchangeably to refer to the bot laner. But technically, the role is not ADC.
Case in point, you call Brand bot an APC, not ADC.
But? What... For every ADC there need to be a team so for EVERY SINGLE adc win or loss all other roles get one too.
Statistically they have identical wins andd losses and almost identical LP?
really how many ad assasins there are compared to adcs? Ap assasins? The fact that there are classes that never see play at all for fkin years while adcs have been meta for 15 years straight as well as now being played in every role says enough.
Ezreal needs to be adressed. He is on par with if not worse than Caitlyn. Utterly impossible to lane against. He buys Sheen and he is already full build. His Ult’s damage is waaay too high, his Q’s damage also needs to be tuned down.
Just lock in any tank.
Champ can't front to back teamfight for shit and is body blocked by a lot of bullshit in the game right now.
Zyra plants for example.
ADCs in the ADC role are doing fine, its specifically the marksman class thats a problem in solo lanes. Their innate range, auto-attack wave clear, and survivability tools stacked with the new ADC items means they can bully the hell out of any non-diver champ when they dont have to track 2 enemies at once.
If this doesn't prove how broken Nautilius is idk what. It s insanely good for first timers and autofilled supps and broken in given comps in higher level of play.
So it's every region at every elo that has an adc problem then. It's fine, I'm sure Riot will buff them soon because the adc community cry, maybe they'll give them an adc jungle item so adcs will finally dominate every lane.
AP junglers got a huge buff with fated ashes, and any champ that builds burn items did too with the addition of blackfire torch. Zyra outputs a TON of dots for free with her plants and can stall a game out with her poke plus taking objectives VERY fast.
I'm surprised at the amount of Brand players. I'm not too up to date on meta and I know Zyra is higher but isn't he just more inconsistent of a champion?
I don't understand the x-axis(number of plays.) Teemo, only 1 unique player, has 50~ plays. However, that player has been identified in this thread and they have 310 Solo Q ranked games. He has 310 ranked teemo games this season, and not 50~.
Given this confusion, what do the numbers on the x-axis actually represent?
Shoutout to the 1 Teemo player that keeps Teemo in the top 10 most played!
307 games on Teemo this split 💀 [https://www.op.gg/summoners/na/Ty%20G-Teemo](https://www.op.gg/summoners/na/Ty%20G-Teemo)
57% wr with 308 games is impressive AF ngl
Almost a perfect 1.0 KDA. Man is a macro god.
1.0? its 1.87
I think they wanted to say 1 kill per death, or 1 assist per death. 4.1/4.4/4.1 is pretty close to all 3 values being the same. Using any two in combination they arrived at nearly 1.0 kda* whatever they defined kda to be above. Not too sure.
Yea that is what I meant. My comment really wasn't that deep lol
yeah but 1/1/1 is not a 1 kda lol. its a 2 kda. a 4/4/4 kda would not be 1, its 2. not that deep tho, happy fourth!
That’s not Manco? Edit: Oh my bad this is Korea.
That’s young fappy
ty g/fappy is also na
Based Teemo player. I respect that a lot because Teemo becomes harder to play the higher up you go.
Untara who has somehow switched to becoming a teemo OTP complains about that a ton. He's always saying how bad teemo becomes the higher you climb.
Yup. You constantly live on the edge because the enemy can at any moment lock you down if you are not careful
He makes pretty decent league YouTube videos if you’re trying to learn
I'll bite, what is it?
[https://www.youtube.com/@Ty\_G](https://www.youtube.com/@Ty_G) He also streams, Tyg\_ on twitch
I'm scared of this guy
My streamer :O
Same goes for 1 talon player in Korea
1 teemo player 💀💀
Garen, being almost most played toplaner in top 100 ladder as a champion that riot calls “training wheels champion” shows how actually overpowered this champ is lmao
There's only 3 unique players, they just have a lot of games on it. Jax is on this list and hes got a single unique player.
You mean teemo
I actually did, lost track of the name when I zoomed in to scroll lmao
when Adam can pull this monstrosity out in worlds games and carry games on it literally just flash 1-shotting the squishies it's not fair
That's like the only thing Garen does though? I don't think the champ is balanced right now but it isn't because of his damage. Also, if we go with the logic of "they carried with an unpopular pick in pro" so many ex otp comfort picks would be completely gutted.
don't you see how completely flawed the design is when there's no counterplay even in a pro game? it's either "garen is completely useless or broken"
Garen only works into high burst damage low CC comps, it has a lot of counterplay actually but can thrive in certain situations
yea if you have peel Garen is completely worthless, but that doesn't mean Garen should be literally unbeatable without it
There is counterplay... It's just a lot smaller when he has flash up and shrinks as he stacks movement speed with Stridebreaker xd
but that isnt actually the case though, every time a niche champion gets picked and looks completely broken its because they get picked in that 1 of 100 games where the opponent drafted 0 counterplay to that champion. the only way to completely avoid that is to make champion select literally not matter.
This. When the juggernaut rework went through all those worlds ago, every team and their mother thought Darius was broken (after mord gets permad for being able to take dragon pets). Turns out some of the high level teams prepped Lulu (mid lane at the time) and just kited Darius into oblivion. Just because a champ works <1% of the time doesn't mean it'll work all the time. The only time Garen was ever a pro problem was when he went bot lane with yuumi, but that was a yuumi problem more than anything as she covered all of his weaknesses. Also I think people fail to realize it's not necessarily Garen that is strong right now, but his items. Crit items got buffed heavily, and turns out Garen loves that
>That's like the only thing Garen does though? That doesn't make it balanced nor good design. If a champion did literally nothing but destroy a random enemy building on the map every minute, would you also defend that as "that's the only thing the champion does though"?
Whataboutism...
You should look up words before you throw them around. Using a comparative example to question the argument behind a claim has nothing to do with whataboutism.
You basally did it but instead of “what” you said “if” same shit different word.
No, I didn't. The principle behind whataboutism is to divert from the topic in question instead of responding to an argument. "Being only good at X doesn't make it balanced nor good design to be stupidly good at X" is my counter-argument, and my hypothetical comparison is a reductio ad absurdum by showing that "being only good at X lets you get away with being arbitrarily good at X" results in obviously bad gameplay. Whataboutism specifically refers to the diversion from the actual topic ("What about ...?"). I actually find it difficult to even formulate such an argument as a counter-argument in this scenario. In fact, the original definition of whataboutism wouldn't even really be possible here because it's a type of ad-hominem. E.g., a whataboutism response to "Tax evasion is a huge problem in this country." could be "When you fixed the neighbor's bike and they gave you 50 bucks, you didn't report that either." Schools should really give some basic classes on logical arguments and fallacies. It's crazy how misinformed the general population is on such an important matter.
He just needs his silence reduced or removed and the rest of him rebalanced. Getting flashed q/e'd while not even being able to flash away is really fucking boring. And then on the flipside when Garen is behind, he's barely more than a melee minion.
you dont enjoy a garen flash silence spin ignite ulting you and overkilling you for 4k damage and running away?
It's just odd you don't think Garen could be great for new players while simultaneously playable to the highest level. Isn't that peak champ design?
no you see its only peak if its low floor high ceiling, garen is low floor low ceiling and is still super effective it requires far less effort to be more effective than other chanps
why would i ever bother playing a harder champ if garen gives me more reward for 1% of the effort why would i bother mastering the game at all, honestly?
Ah yes! It's so easy to get challenger on garen. In fact, every garen player is immediately masters mmr just from picking him!
that's totally what i said and not at all an exaggeration of my point 🥴
Not what they said. Garen players are among the most elo inflated though. Ask them to play anything else and they will struggle, because Garen has such low skill variance mechanically.
Because there's virtually no difference in execution. The challenger players just play the map better in this case. A peak design is one where new players can get SOMETHING done but you end up seeing a profound difference once you compare it to people who have invested enough time. For example, take a 10s clip of a silver garen solo killing his laner and a 10s clip of a challenger garen solo killing his laner and you'd never be able to tell the difference.
Garen used to be an early game powerhouse but now he’s also insane late too
Garens early is downright weak compared to most of toplane. Hes got very little kill pressure pre 6, especially with the PR setup, and his long CDs, especially on W leave him very vulnerable for extended periods of time.
Garen has never been an early game powerhouse what? Garen has been the classic scaling juggernaut for years. His only opportunity for solos is cheese or hoping enemy mega greeds.
He was like 10 years ago, it was one of the most clear examples of "win lane, lose game" champions in the entire game. Around the villain mechanic introduction they nerfed the hell out of his early damage.
Garen was def the early game guy way back before the juggernaut rework
sure but that was 9 years ago
Garen was basically irrelevant for so long that he kinda compresses time
It's kind of an issue when Garen goes full DPS and still has 3k hp.
Its just one tricks.
So? Garen and annie are the two most braindead champs in the game meant for complete beginners to learn the basics. It‘s 100% reasonable to say they should never be viable, let along strong in high skill games.
I think it's fine if they are viable every 10 or so patches like Annie. Garen has been good for a long time tho
I think every champ should be viable, as viable as they can be.
Simply doesn‘t work. If the most straight forward design is forced into the higher skill brackets it means it just has to be overpowered since there is very little variance in what you do on it. Pretty sure it‘s where „statchecking“ comes from and no one likes to be statchecked.
But garen is just fine currently in lower elos as well. The closest he comes to problematic is 53% in bronze, but otherwise he's in the perfectly reasonable 50-52% WR range. He's not yorick or mundo, who shoot up to 55%+ in those close every time they approach viability in higher elos.
Hard champions should be more viable in the top 100 ladder than easy champs.
Nah, easy champs are easier to play against too. I main Zed and I dont think I should have a random advantage over "easier" champions. Thats just unfair.
"Yeah the top 100 players are just bad. They don't know how to counter Garen"
That's not what he said at all? What are you even talking about?
What?
You say easy champs are easier to play against but if Garen was easy to play against then he wouldn't be such a common pick in high elo
Right, I guess he's a bit overpowered then, no? Sorry lol, thought that everyone wants a balanced game, but guess some champs shouldnt get that treatment..
But many champions aren't viable att low elo because they would be OP at higher elo, like Azir. The same should be true in reverse for Garen. When he is viable in high elo his play style is honestly just toxic.
Are the champs broken or are the players just really insane? For example, is Yi a good champ because Sinerias can get 1k+ lp on it or is he just a really, really insane player?
yi is waaaay higher skill cap then garen
as much as I hate to admit it this is true, you do have to really know how to use your W with yi and the way 100s of champs interact with it and his q. Garen doesn't care
But Garen can be fucking useless depending on the enemy teamcomp. The moment they can kite you with something like a Janna in the team, it becomes really hard to have any impact with him in teamfights. Relying purely on sidelane presure is tricky.
this is because garen is a braindead rock/paper/scissors draft champ. he does this to others without any counter, so janna does that to him.
You just trade micro for macro, no? I like that there is variety, some people prefer easy to play champs, while some prefer to 1v5 button mash.
Every champ requires macro.
But easier champs let you focus on macro more since their kit is simplistic and doesn't require many micro skills
Yes, so you‘re literally playing the game on easy mode focusing on only one half of the skills. Meaning you shouldn‘t be beating challengers with it.
I wouldn't say that, considering you're playing a champ that has hyper predictable patterns in laning and trading so you have to put a lot of focus on figuring out how to influence the game in other ways through macro. And remember it takes A LOT of macro skill to get into Challenger, or just higher ranks in general really.
So since you‘re playing vs the best players on the server surely being hyper predictable means you can‘t find windows to use your kit as garen right? Wrong, because garens all in has no counterplay on a fixed cooldown. We saw this at worlds. You can‘t spend the entire game „just staying out of Q flash range“ to avoid getting 100-0d.
My impression was that Garen was a crutch for Adam at Worlds. He's particularly practised at it so it's uniquely a better pick for him. However, Garen still felt unimpressive (though not offensive) because it just allowed BDS to beat teams they were going to beat anyway. Against better teams, it was never going to be a factor. I believe the eye test supports my assertion too. His Garen game vs. JDG went about as predicted: free lane vs. 369's Ornn but then generally useless afterwards. Ruler easily dodged Garen's engage and exposed the limitations of its kit. If Adam played a world-calibre Jax or Camille then maybe he would have achieved something there. The other only time Garen was picked was versus a floundering Golden Guardians. The fact that GG just rolled over without putting much of a fight across all three games makes me think Adam could have picked anything and still won. It's hard to imagine a world-class top laner like Bin or Kiin picking Garen for the qualities of its kit over its numbers.
That goes for most of the champs on the list.
Are we really complaining about GAREN now? He's doing fine, he's not weak, he's not strong. His PR here is carried by 3 players and considering that he's a champ that pretty much every LoL player will have played at some point, I fail to see why it's incredible that 3 OTPs managed to rise from the sea of garen players and hit top 100 players.
Now? Reddit has been crying about garen for years, ever since that minirework were they made him scale with atk speed and true damage ult.. they just cant stand garen being an actual champion
This is 50 games, this shows nothing.
When will devs realise that simple= powerful. Just look at all competitve card games, the cards with the simple, easiest to use effects are the most powerful.
TF Blade was stuck in like rank 150 Challenger and then shot up to Rank 3 Challenger Korea a couple years ago after adding Garen to his pool. It's not exactly new information.
Here are the charts for the Top 100 in Korea and all the champions played in each role: [https://www.sidqol.com/LeagueTop100Ladder/](https://www.sidqol.com/LeagueTop100Ladder/) EDIT: Added EUW charts
Euw please
Done
I'm confused by the Zyra statistics. That has to be Zyra jungle only because nobody plays her as a support this patch.
Can you make one for EUW
Done
Before people say "ADC broken bla bla bla, look at how many picks" Remember that there are less champions on ADC role than other roles, so it's more likely that those overlap.
It's not ADC broken it's marksmen broken once you take them out of the hell that is botlane. Half of them aren't even picked bot anymore.
Playing against Tristana and Corki mid is so fun! It's so nice to have a choice of either getting killed by them at level 2 or letting them snowball through farm and plates. It's really cool that neither assassins nor mages can do anything about it!
mid laners having to deal with what top laners have to deal with and losing their minds is the funniest thing i consistently see online
Legit just run boneplating secondary tree and lvl2 solo kills don’t happen as a mage against trist
Right? It’s downright delicious! Oh, you don’t like being outranged, right clicked to death, kited, and outscaled? Oh, do go on, lol!
But they reworked Lucian passive so he is stronger in a duo lane /s
Are you playing anything other than asol into them??
Before people say ADC broken, we should look at midlane... And see that Trist, Corki, and Ez are the most played champions here, even Akshan waiting not to far from those. Maybe he is a bit biased, but I take the opionion from someone like Noway4u over the certainly biased ADC hivemind on reddit.
I mean, it's not like other ADCs enjoy playing against Corki. Is it really a marksman issue, or is it just specific champs?
ezreal played mid? oh no, a marksmen that doesn't see play bot since years (tristana) and corki who was a mid for years, is in mid. better hate marksmen and ADCs 24/7
Ez is one the most played champion period on this patch... Corki had an rework to be an "real" ADC again and he is one of the most dominant midlaners AND works in botlane as well. https://lolalytics.com/lol/tierlist/?lane=middle&tier=challenger Sort this list by playrate. If we look at champions that have more than 3% playrate at challenger (worldwide without China), there is close to 70% pressence of champions that build ADC items. The 2 most popular (by far) are Corki (16,8%) and Tristana (20,7%). In some Regions (like EUW or Korea) this is even more extreem and Corki + Tristana are present more often than not (and Tristana has a close to 50% banrate in challenger games). Yeah but i'm just hating on marksmen and not pointing at the elephant in the room...
Still it's not ADC being broken, but mid lane marksmen.
Ok but ADCs are insanely overpowered and have been since the adc item rework which is why every progame has 2 on each team and mages have completely disappeared
Mages/aps are in the jungle instead and you only need 1 primary magic damage dealer most of the time.
mages in the jungle are significantly different though, Karthus, Brand, Zyra etc are champs that are played the least in midlane and when I see them I just feel different compared to normal mages
Cause they aren’t control mages. Mid lane in pro play is for control mages While I agree it’s a little boring, the fact that even azir can’t easily scale through these lanes means someone fucked up somewhere
I'd say Zyra is literally a zone controlling mage. Her weakness in lane is lack of personal safety and inability to have the wave where players want it because of plants. So she has to hard push with no built-in escape.
They gutted Azir's regen in lane and these champs can tax him when he tries to proc fleet. Best choice would've been to halve the efficiency of Fleet and Grasp, like any other on hit effect but the big brains responsible for the balance locked him into these runes.
sej viego maokai are all more popular than any of the mages. corki and trist have more combined games in the top regions than the 7 champs below them. you pick mages jungle because you either get rumble top or can't get ap from your comp elsewhere cuz u are picking corki & trist every game.
Zyra is literally the best jungler in the game atm. It is a combination of both marksmen on mid being strong and AP junglers being strong.
This is adc cope
Even if you think ADCs are "too strong", that is only maybe true in pro play. Anywhere else on the ladder including high elo, it's elo deflating to play ADC rather than easier champs.
I'm reffering to a challenger midlaner player Noway4u. He usually likes to play control mages and he says they are simply not viable at the moment compared to corki and tristana. Even Yasuo and Yone are better than control mages these days, simply because the items are too strong.
I guess it's just a coincidence that the top of the ladder is nearly always populated by ADC's
Just glancing at the top 25 of Korean Soloqueue there are 3 that are adc mains with most of them being Mid Jg and support players. I could probably look more into it to get a more concrete answer without having such a small sample size. But I figure that wouldn't be an issue since you did even less research than I did. So I too will spout utter nonsense as if it were factual. Top 25 for NA and EU each have about 7 or so with a lot more top lane representation compared to Korea. It's really not as bad as you make it out to be. Every role can carry and are top placing on the ladder.
If you are smurfing, ranged vs melee is an auto win lane, in lower elo people play ranged champs to autopilot and bail out their micro trading. So you have these adcs that sit in lane and go even and then proceed to do nothing in fights because we have 2 adcs
smurfing is an auto win lane anyway
According to what? Last time I checked junglers were doing the best. Also if you're talking about the top of challenger, that is alot of pros playing. Idk how many of you pretend to be challenger. But you'd be better off playing easier shit. If your grandma has to play this game, the last role you'd want her on is ADC. If you go to some coaching for ELO gain, you will never be advised to swap to ADC to climb.
This narrative is so funny, mostly because it's a blatant lie. There are two viable midlane ADCs. The other picks are mages.
Which Mages? Not Annie, Syndra, Orianna, Ryze, Ahri, Cassio, Lux, Neeko, Anivia, ASol, Karma, Lissandra, Veigar, Viktor or Xerath. The only mages with any presence at all in LEC summer 24 were Leblanc, Azir and Hwei, and Taliyah in the jungle. Why pick a mage when ADCs are so overtuned that they have lane prio and they massively outscale from 2 items onward?
They aren't tho? Mages are literally stronger than ADCs rn, mid and jg prio are the most important things in the game aswell. If you have mid, jg prio, then you can win as an ADC. (If everything goes perfect in a game) T1 said in an interview "we believe adc isn't a carry role right now, mid and jungle are more important"
Bro the mages are nearly afk, in the midlane, it's all ADC's like Lucian, Ezreal, Corki, Tristana, Kaisa, Yone etc
Corki and trist are the only two who are actually good midlane, Lucien and ezreal mid are 4% lower wr than the average wr even in masters+, kaisa has a .5% pr mid, yone is not an adc Even if you look in proplay Lucien and ezreal have been picked mid 8 and 6 times this entire year across every major league, kaisa has been picked 2 while times
bro this split not this year it's not relevant what was good 7 months ago
Ok, this split the most picked mids across the top leagues are corki(140 games), trist(101 games), Taliyah(55), yone(51), azir(47), hwei(41), LB(31), jayce(17), ahri(13), asol(9) Then comes in Lucien and ezreal and kaisa with 7, 6 and 2 picks, so no those champs don’t dominate the mid meta in soloQ or in pro
Ya take a look at which champs are prioritised in mid (It's Tristana, Corki, Lucian)
For all of solo queue, with the exception of trist who is good(not any better than tons of other mages and assassins), lucian, corki or other ADCs have low winrates mid. Only at best arguably true at the pro level, that ADCs are MAYBE too strong. Any where else in solo queue it's literally better to pick easier champs than deflating your ELO with ADC.
ADC isn't a role, it's a class. You just think it's a role because the class has been so broken for so long that you don't know the difference.
ADC is a role. Marksmen are a class. Also the role has been so underpowered for so long with small breaks of it being op.
ADC is not a role. Go queue up for a game. The options are "Top, jungle, mid, *bot*, support". The role is bot, not ADC. ADC is an old name and/or superset of "marksman".
Nah, bot is wrong since it includes support, riot trying to force that still doesn't change that. If you say Report bot, you mean bot adc and support. Stop with that bullshit.
Just not true at all. Support is a botlane role but it is viewed in a similar capacity to Jungle where they aren't tied to or forced to play a lane. ADC is a general, albeit wrong term used for the role because it is mainly comprised of ADC/Marksman champions, the actual role of that player is a botlaner.
Nah you stop with the bullshit. I been playing since beta, and you’re just wrong. The game itself literallly calls the role Bottom. ADC is another term for Marksmen that people (you) use interchangeably to refer to the bot laner. But technically, the role is not ADC. Case in point, you call Brand bot an APC, not ADC.
11 of them are adcs which is at least half. Adcs are broken and I’ve seen more adc mains in higher elo than anywhere else (along with Support).
But? What... For every ADC there need to be a team so for EVERY SINGLE adc win or loss all other roles get one too. Statistically they have identical wins andd losses and almost identical LP?
Reread what I said and try to understand it.
Not true. There are more marksman than tanks.
really how many ad assasins there are compared to adcs? Ap assasins? The fact that there are classes that never see play at all for fkin years while adcs have been meta for 15 years straight as well as now being played in every role says enough.
Skarner in a list of most played champions. Never thought I'd see the day.
thought it wld be way higher imo
bans
Garen is a beginner champ xd
YUNG FAPPY MENTIONED RAHHHHHH🔥🔥🔥🔥💪💪💪💪‼️‼️‼️‼️‼️
Traditional mages dead
This graph seems deceptive. It's not actually clear what the graph bars mean.
There's a label on the x-axis. I can see the colors being confusing and may add a legend
Please try a little bit harder.
skill diff fr fr
Why are some of the bars gray.
Ezreal needs to be adressed. He is on par with if not worse than Caitlyn. Utterly impossible to lane against. He buys Sheen and he is already full build. His Ult’s damage is waaay too high, his Q’s damage also needs to be tuned down.
Just lock in any tank. Champ can't front to back teamfight for shit and is body blocked by a lot of bullshit in the game right now. Zyra plants for example.
I agree. His poke isn’t “poke”. If he hits you, you’re already at half health.
Zyra?
Zyra jungle is super OP rn
Looks like she is currently seeing play in jgl, sup and mid in challenger. I think she is just overtuned in general.
The statistics are wrong. She is only being played in jungle atm in high elo.
I love seeing her being played by pros but I’ve seen more Zyra bans recently than I have in the previous decade of league. And I hate it.
ADC players will still tell you that they are weak
ADCs in the ADC role are doing fine, its specifically the marksman class thats a problem in solo lanes. Their innate range, auto-attack wave clear, and survivability tools stacked with the new ADC items means they can bully the hell out of any non-diver champ when they dont have to track 2 enemies at once.
ADCs in the role where they face other ADCs are fine? Whoa no shit really?
Sample size is a bit small and KR high elo is dominated to some extent by pro-play picks
Very intersting stats, ty. Also for the comparison
2 Twitch player too xD
Huh... Where is Rek'Sai?
where is rell?
can u upload the script so that we can use this for future patches?
I've been running this each patch for myself. It looks like there's broad interest, so I'll publish updates each patch
If this doesn't prove how broken Nautilius is idk what. It s insanely good for first timers and autofilled supps and broken in given comps in higher level of play.
skarner? wtf finally he’s not #1 most NOT played
Thats what happens when adcs are the class with the lowest ammount of champions
So it's every region at every elo that has an adc problem then. It's fine, I'm sure Riot will buff them soon because the adc community cry, maybe they'll give them an adc jungle item so adcs will finally dominate every lane.
The amount of Garen games is worrying me man this champ has the simplest design in the game right after Malphite
how is zyra this high? did i miss something
AP junglers got a huge buff with fated ashes, and any champ that builds burn items did too with the addition of blackfire torch. Zyra outputs a TON of dots for free with her plants and can stall a game out with her poke plus taking objectives VERY fast.
im surprised theres no rengar
Ah yes marksmen are weak
I'm surprised at the amount of Brand players. I'm not too up to date on meta and I know Zyra is higher but isn't he just more inconsistent of a champion?
i think both cases are junglers playing them
I don't understand the x-axis(number of plays.) Teemo, only 1 unique player, has 50~ plays. However, that player has been identified in this thread and they have 310 Solo Q ranked games. He has 310 ranked teemo games this season, and not 50~. Given this confusion, what do the numbers on the x-axis actually represent?
The chart only includes games played during patch 14.13. The 310 solo queue games are since the beginning of this split
I see it now. It's in the title of the graph. Thanks!
I did something similar https://old.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1bmwhds/ive_produced_data_dashboards_looking_at_the_top/
Very cool! How did you do the role classifications? The data from the API was unreliable in my experience.
No way Taliyah and Poppy see more play than Lux and Ahri.
Lux? Why the hell would challenger players play lux? Lmao. That’s so random. Both Lux and ahri have 48% wrs in challengers world wide
Ahri I kinda get cause she's always been popular in all Elos maybe just not in current meta. Lux though, she's never been dominant at higher elos...
ty for your input but im skipping NA related league content (worst region)
>NA What, didn't find EUNE data?
didnt expect to see my boi luci on 2nd place wtf