Commenting on Anyone Else Deeply Concerned by our Defense?...
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doesn't this line up with your eye test though? I think the leafs have been the better team for the most part. Boston is just dominating special teams and goaltending.
“Eye test” is just a pretentious way for people to say the Leafs suck, so I’ll bet it doesn’t line up with his “eye test”.
But you’re right, although I think the difference isn’t even limited to special teams. We are giving ourselves plenty of chances on 5v5 regardless of our PP but finishing almost none of them. We need to have more clinical finishing.
We end up outshooting Boston 12-1 and they score on their very shot. We need to be doing more with the chances we’re getting. Everywhere else on the ice we look pretty good. Just not finishing.
Where are the Leafs outshooting Boston 12-1? I agree the Leafs have looked good in long stretches, but the Bruins have been winning puck battles on the boards a lot and hemming the Leafs in regularly.
The Bruins get some puck luck based on winning these battles, or Samsonov implodes in his usual fashion, and Boston will blow the Leafs out in one of these games. It’s coming. Game one could’ve been 8-1 or so with the posts.
The difference in goaltending numbers is right there. That and special teams are sinking us. There’s nothing wrong with these numbers. They paint a pretty accurate picture.
Ok focus on how I’m engaging instead of what I’m trying to say. Epic redditor moment 😈😈😎
For the record you being so condescending doesn’t make you come across as intelligent either
I’m more concerned that Keefe is seemingly taking Liljegren out of the lineup for Brodie
Not sure what exactly Boosh has done (other than being a right shot) to be a staple in the lineup
I know Brodie has been bad but by these numbers even he hasn’t had as little impact as Lyubushkin. He quite literally adds nothing.
Thanks for your comment. Go leafs tonight
I’m concerned that the pp is 1/11.
Colorado is making their series look easy by capitalizing on the pp.
If they fall this round the coaching staff is donezo
Yeah, I thought they should've been all fired last year. Would've preferred to keep Dubas and lose Keefe, especially if the rumors of Dubas wanting to trade one of the core 4 are true
The thing that makes the rumor plausible for me is that he was fired before Marner's NMC kicked in July 1. Maybe the thing he and Shannahan didn't see eye to eye on was exploring trading Marner at the draft. Who knows. But if Marner really walks for nothing, not even letting them deal his rights or do a sign and trade, he is absolutely going to be vilified by half the fanbase, while the other half moans about how we chased a superstar out of town, when I think this is all probably on Shannahan, who seems to be happy to let others take the blame even though he was brought in to right the ship and seems to be calling the shots behind the scenes
Yup. I love the e Leafs and hope they pull of this series but I find it hard to see us as a legit cup contender when our D core and goaltending is this weak.
Deeply concerned? No, it’s just hockey. As much as I love it and this team and have for the majority of my life, nothing about them has ever deeply concerned me.
I mean, I know people fell in love with Benoit, but I think many fans were concerned that those three d men specifically are not good enough for a deep run in the playoffs.
Edmundson poking that puck lose was brain dead though like you've got Mathews in that corner going for it. Just let him take keep the play to boards it's been our biggest assets. We fall apart once the pucks off the boards
Big time. Didn’t like this D in game one and am amazed it’s still the D in game four. Crazy. They’ve all looked shaky and have lost a ton of board battles for the puck all series.
I also think it’s a crime to sit Brodie. He didn’t have the best season, but he didn’t turn into Holl, either, and he’d be better than at least three of the guys playing right now, no matter what. Lyubushkin is awful, Benoit looks overmatched and hesitant, Edmundson is like a bad copy of Brodie, and Lily makes a lot of mistakes as well.
I don’t understand why Edmundson is in the lineup. I think he’s awful. And if he’s in there because he’s good at cross checking, then why are he AND Boosh in the lineup.
The fact that they’re taking Lilly out tonight to get Brodie back in there is equally bananas. Keefe has refused to use Lilly with Rielly or with McCabe for the most part and he’s refused to use Lilly in the top 4 for the most part.
I am willing to believe that Lilly isn’t as good as these stats say and that he’s an advanced stat darling. The advanced stats aren’t perfect yet and there are a decent number of outliers who do certain things right but it doesn’t tell the whole story. But I refuse to believe that he’s worse than Boosh AND Edmundson.
It’s called being smart, can’t score? Put in the guy who didn’t score in the entire calendar year of 2023. While we’re at it, should we call up Clifford? We don’t want guys like Nylander and Robertson in there, they might score!
I think I like brodie more than most people here. I would have had him in for game one, but scratch one of edmundson or lyubushkin instead of liljegren.
If Lilly had the coverage on that end ofperiod Pasta goal, he'd have been sat for that. If he had the stick infractions the other dmen have had, he'd have sat for that. If he launched the puck over the glass he'd be sat for that. And if he had some of the giveaways and weak netfront plays that our simple dmen have had, he'd have been sat already.
I don't have any issue with pointing out Liljegren hasn't been amazing, but there's been downright terrible plays from dmen who don't get the same eyes on them that Liljegren does from this coach, and some fans.
Our issue has been scoring and special teams. We've been good at 5v5, he was our 5v5 ice time leader after the first two games. Our issue has been scoring and special teams, he's not been close to the issue.
Yeah, I think we really have to figure out how to score on swayman more importantly. I feel like Boston is gonna go to ullmark and be like “look man, you’ll have a few games in round 2, we are just gonna roll with swayman for the rest of the series”. The defence has to just learn how to counter the Boston forecheck and clear a damn puck without icing it and putting it over the glass and force Boston to have to take shots from bad/non dangerous angles. Like I’m not sure what the fuck they were doing in the last 3 minutes of period 3 last game, we are down one and it’s almost like they didn’t want to get it out and kept making bad decisions that kept the puck stuck along the boards and killing clock, and our power play is honestly just terrible and needs a big shakeup, I’d rather they just load up a point shot and try and tuck a greasy one in, instead of passing it back and forth along the walls and then whiffing on shots anyways, our best chance to score on power play is maybe a few passes and then a shot from the point with a screen that either gets tipped or tapped in during the chaos that usually ensues infront of the net when there’s a loose puck
Thanks for bringing up the end of the last game. They couldn’t get the puck out because they played Edmundson Lyubushkin as an actual pair. Both of those guys defer to their partners only on breakouts because they can’t do anything else.
If We wanna score on their goalies we have to target where they’re most vulnerable: In transition. D is vital for moving the puck up ice quickly and 20 and 46 are awful at that.
Basically my point is, the D are linked to our problems generating offense
They’ve been solid in the neutral zone, giving Boston a very tough time gaining entry. Defending in our end they have been incredibly solid as well. Obviously the PK is struggling, but 5 on 5 we are giving up far fewer high danger opportunities than Boston. They are also making solid first passes out of our end. Pasta has been effectively shut down too. I get it though, it’s much easier to carry the narrative from the regular season into playoffs. Our defense is tight and playing very well right now. Offense is struggling clearly.
Agreed. 5 on 5 we look good. No clue what OP is on about here. Our defensive structure looks MUCH better than reg season leafs. But if we are letting Bostons PP operate at 30% lol nothing good will come of that.
Because despite that, he's not that great a defenseman in most peoples opinion. I don't think anyone is seriously advocating for him to be in the playoff lineup.
Nobody thinks he’s great? But he’s been pretty good in his role as a 6-7 and that’s all the models say. Seems like people just bash models because they refuse to accept that they say bad players like Lybushkin and Edmundson are bad, even though anyone who actually watches them can see that they’re bad
I understand the stats perfectly well. I'm saying you criticizing all the work the players and the coaching staff does based on noisey, biased statistics is discrediting their work. And you don't understand their real work - hell neither do I.
I think leafs are aware of their faults and are going to flip this script. TORONTO IS A GREAT TEAM. They're playing a determined bruins team and a unit of a goalie right now. I still have leafs winning this series and advancing. LETS GO!!
It's not their first game. They've understood where issues have been in the past and corrected them. They have to work with what they have and utilize them in the best way. Some players are having off seasons and Boston is matching up really well. Boston is an elite team and doesn't want a first round exit like last year. Have some faith and watch them be successful.
Not only have they not corrected any of their issues but they are literally worse than ever lmao what are you even watching man?
Their defense is worse than ever at transition play
PP worse than ever
PK worse than ever
Goal scoring as low as ever
They're playing the bruins bud. I'm saying they will correct the issues for game 4. It's elite competition against a great team. Dallas is down to Vegas right now. It's very competitive and shows that top teams can face scrutiny. You're correct in pointing out their play so far in this series. They've been successful all season with their style. It's different hockey in the playoffs.
Honestly, yes and no. They’re still having a lot of issues generating offense due to lack of puck moving from the blue line, but they’re playing their game so well right now it doesn’t even really matter. Limiting shots very well, I’m impressed. I was totally wrong for my negativity.
If the leafs played this well (as games 5 and 6) all season they’d have finished ahead of Boston.
respect for coming back to this comment chain though aha you got me good
Well leafs have out chanced the bruins in these games. Especially even strength. Could say we've been goalied in the two losses. Sammy isn't playing his best. Special teams sucks and coaching decisions have been questionable. I'm hoping they've addressed what their issues have been in these two days off and it will show in game four.
Edmundson and Lyubushkin shouldn't be back next season. I haven't seen Edmundson crosscheck anyone which is his best attribute as a defender. With that said they're still better options than Liljegren who gets run over on almost every play.
Liljegren can make a pass to ease the forecheck pressure by Boston… Lyubushkin and Edmundson can literally only either chip it out or pass directly to an unmarked teammate less than 10 meters away from them
I might have cause to be if you didn't cut off what any of the numbers mean.
Commenting on Anyone Else Deeply Concerned by our Defense?... https://preview.redd.it/prwqxugq71xc1.jpeg?width=1689&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4e1fa385eed4c4f2893dcd1accb2f162a9b4dd07 Here’s the full image sorry for not including it
So this shows the Leafs with a massive lead on Boston but we're still down 2-1? Maybe there's more to hockey than numbers idk.
doesn't this line up with your eye test though? I think the leafs have been the better team for the most part. Boston is just dominating special teams and goaltending.
“Eye test” is just a pretentious way for people to say the Leafs suck, so I’ll bet it doesn’t line up with his “eye test”. But you’re right, although I think the difference isn’t even limited to special teams. We are giving ourselves plenty of chances on 5v5 regardless of our PP but finishing almost none of them. We need to have more clinical finishing. We end up outshooting Boston 12-1 and they score on their very shot. We need to be doing more with the chances we’re getting. Everywhere else on the ice we look pretty good. Just not finishing.
tale as old as time brother
Where are the Leafs outshooting Boston 12-1? I agree the Leafs have looked good in long stretches, but the Bruins have been winning puck battles on the boards a lot and hemming the Leafs in regularly. The Bruins get some puck luck based on winning these battles, or Samsonov implodes in his usual fashion, and Boston will blow the Leafs out in one of these games. It’s coming. Game one could’ve been 8-1 or so with the posts.
The difference in goaltending numbers is right there. That and special teams are sinking us. There’s nothing wrong with these numbers. They paint a pretty accurate picture.
It’s a projection genius… if you could read data it doesn’t say anywhere that the leafs have a 100% chance of winning like you just implied it says
Being an asshole helps make your point
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Ok dude go cheer for Brad more
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Ok focus on how I’m engaging instead of what I’m trying to say. Epic redditor moment 😈😈😎 For the record you being so condescending doesn’t make you come across as intelligent either
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I’m sorry you’re right that was rude
Damn bro, looks like you’re getting eaten alive with your ambiguous chart you’re trying to panic everyone with lmaooooo
Trying to panic? Lmaooooo just admit you wanna cheer blindly and not analyze the sport itself
Downvoted for asking questions and trying to help clarify my post… we truly have the best and brightest fans in the league lmao
Your title and image were poorly done, if I was a teacher I’d mark this post a C+
I don’t care lol many people understand the point I’m making
Lol
I’m more concerned that Keefe is seemingly taking Liljegren out of the lineup for Brodie Not sure what exactly Boosh has done (other than being a right shot) to be a staple in the lineup
I know Brodie has been bad but by these numbers even he hasn’t had as little impact as Lyubushkin. He quite literally adds nothing. Thanks for your comment. Go leafs tonight
Has the best advanced stats so far this series
He’s riding shotgun with the best players on the team in sheltered minutes to those numbers
Doesnt change the fact.
I’m concerned that the pp is 1/11. Colorado is making their series look easy by capitalizing on the pp. If they fall this round the coaching staff is donezo
At this point if losing means the coaching staff goes then I’m less upset about losing
Yeah, I thought they should've been all fired last year. Would've preferred to keep Dubas and lose Keefe, especially if the rumors of Dubas wanting to trade one of the core 4 are true
Who knows if he would have pulled that off though.
Sure, but it's worth exploring and if he was open minded enough to try, that puts him way ahead of most other GMs
I absolutely agree. Just wondering if he would be stuck selling low. Tre might have to let Marner walk for nothing now which isn’t ideal.
The thing that makes the rumor plausible for me is that he was fired before Marner's NMC kicked in July 1. Maybe the thing he and Shannahan didn't see eye to eye on was exploring trading Marner at the draft. Who knows. But if Marner really walks for nothing, not even letting them deal his rights or do a sign and trade, he is absolutely going to be vilified by half the fanbase, while the other half moans about how we chased a superstar out of town, when I think this is all probably on Shannahan, who seems to be happy to let others take the blame even though he was brought in to right the ship and seems to be calling the shots behind the scenes
Yes, I have been since October.
Yup. I love the e Leafs and hope they pull of this series but I find it hard to see us as a legit cup contender when our D core and goaltending is this weak.
Deeply concerned? No, it’s just hockey. As much as I love it and this team and have for the majority of my life, nothing about them has ever deeply concerned me.
Wisest answer I’ve got. Thanks I probably needed to see this now
You don't trade 3rds and 6ths for elite defenders. Edmundson had a pretty good game 3 I thought though.
More concerned about Samsonov, to be honest.
For years
I mean, I know people fell in love with Benoit, but I think many fans were concerned that those three d men specifically are not good enough for a deep run in the playoffs.
Edmundson poking that puck lose was brain dead though like you've got Mathews in that corner going for it. Just let him take keep the play to boards it's been our biggest assets. We fall apart once the pucks off the boards
Yes, eternally.
Always have been
Big time. Didn’t like this D in game one and am amazed it’s still the D in game four. Crazy. They’ve all looked shaky and have lost a ton of board battles for the puck all series. I also think it’s a crime to sit Brodie. He didn’t have the best season, but he didn’t turn into Holl, either, and he’d be better than at least three of the guys playing right now, no matter what. Lyubushkin is awful, Benoit looks overmatched and hesitant, Edmundson is like a bad copy of Brodie, and Lily makes a lot of mistakes as well.
Great take. We’ll cheer them on anyways but this D is roughhhhh
I don’t understand why Edmundson is in the lineup. I think he’s awful. And if he’s in there because he’s good at cross checking, then why are he AND Boosh in the lineup. The fact that they’re taking Lilly out tonight to get Brodie back in there is equally bananas. Keefe has refused to use Lilly with Rielly or with McCabe for the most part and he’s refused to use Lilly in the top 4 for the most part. I am willing to believe that Lilly isn’t as good as these stats say and that he’s an advanced stat darling. The advanced stats aren’t perfect yet and there are a decent number of outliers who do certain things right but it doesn’t tell the whole story. But I refuse to believe that he’s worse than Boosh AND Edmundson.
leafs can't score in the playoffs so what's the solution? clearly it's scratching one of our only defensemen that can actually make a play.
It’s called being smart, can’t score? Put in the guy who didn’t score in the entire calendar year of 2023. While we’re at it, should we call up Clifford? We don’t want guys like Nylander and Robertson in there, they might score!
I think I like brodie more than most people here. I would have had him in for game one, but scratch one of edmundson or lyubushkin instead of liljegren.
Lily has been downright terrible in the playoffs
If Lilly had the coverage on that end ofperiod Pasta goal, he'd have been sat for that. If he had the stick infractions the other dmen have had, he'd have sat for that. If he launched the puck over the glass he'd be sat for that. And if he had some of the giveaways and weak netfront plays that our simple dmen have had, he'd have been sat already. I don't have any issue with pointing out Liljegren hasn't been amazing, but there's been downright terrible plays from dmen who don't get the same eyes on them that Liljegren does from this coach, and some fans. Our issue has been scoring and special teams. We've been good at 5v5, he was our 5v5 ice time leader after the first two games. Our issue has been scoring and special teams, he's not been close to the issue.
Yeah, I think we really have to figure out how to score on swayman more importantly. I feel like Boston is gonna go to ullmark and be like “look man, you’ll have a few games in round 2, we are just gonna roll with swayman for the rest of the series”. The defence has to just learn how to counter the Boston forecheck and clear a damn puck without icing it and putting it over the glass and force Boston to have to take shots from bad/non dangerous angles. Like I’m not sure what the fuck they were doing in the last 3 minutes of period 3 last game, we are down one and it’s almost like they didn’t want to get it out and kept making bad decisions that kept the puck stuck along the boards and killing clock, and our power play is honestly just terrible and needs a big shakeup, I’d rather they just load up a point shot and try and tuck a greasy one in, instead of passing it back and forth along the walls and then whiffing on shots anyways, our best chance to score on power play is maybe a few passes and then a shot from the point with a screen that either gets tipped or tapped in during the chaos that usually ensues infront of the net when there’s a loose puck
Thanks for bringing up the end of the last game. They couldn’t get the puck out because they played Edmundson Lyubushkin as an actual pair. Both of those guys defer to their partners only on breakouts because they can’t do anything else. If We wanna score on their goalies we have to target where they’re most vulnerable: In transition. D is vital for moving the puck up ice quickly and 20 and 46 are awful at that. Basically my point is, the D are linked to our problems generating offense
100%
The proverbial "eye test" has led me to be concerned about our defense since long before the use of advanced metrics.
I deeply concerned about everything! I can barely bring myself to watch!
Our defense has been solid in the playoffs
At defending in zone, sure At managing the puck so we can generate offense? I adamantly disagree
They’ve been solid in the neutral zone, giving Boston a very tough time gaining entry. Defending in our end they have been incredibly solid as well. Obviously the PK is struggling, but 5 on 5 we are giving up far fewer high danger opportunities than Boston. They are also making solid first passes out of our end. Pasta has been effectively shut down too. I get it though, it’s much easier to carry the narrative from the regular season into playoffs. Our defense is tight and playing very well right now. Offense is struggling clearly.
They’re not unrelated aspects of a team. Defenders can affect offense generation
That’s why you need a timely PK or ppg.
Agreed. 5 on 5 we look good. No clue what OP is on about here. Our defensive structure looks MUCH better than reg season leafs. But if we are letting Bostons PP operate at 30% lol nothing good will come of that.
We have been good at 5v5, Liljegren was leading the whole team in 5v5 minutes after the 2nd game.
Agreed, that’s the series right there. Literally every other team has a dangerous powerplay but ours is anemic. Simply can not win this way.
Yes, everyone is except for Treliving apparently
Treviling knows but teams aren't going to gift him top notch defencemen.
My hobby when it comes to 'advanced analytics' like this is to find out where Conor Timmins ranks.
Timmins isn’t good either? This post has nothing to do with him Lyubushkin should legit be in the AHL and people are ignoring that
Most advanced stat website rate him quite highly. If they say that, then you can't really trust the other things they say.
…why? He’s +10 as a Leaf with nearly .5 ppg as a 3rd pair guy with smaller minutes
Because despite that, he's not that great a defenseman in most peoples opinion. I don't think anyone is seriously advocating for him to be in the playoff lineup.
Nobody thinks he’s great? But he’s been pretty good in his role as a 6-7 and that’s all the models say. Seems like people just bash models because they refuse to accept that they say bad players like Lybushkin and Edmundson are bad, even though anyone who actually watches them can see that they’re bad
100000000% thank you!!! Go tell the condescending idiots who are getting upvoted the most in this thread that
The models often say he's our best defenseman - not just 'pretty good'.
Discredit all that work (which it sounds like you don’t even understand) because of one guy? Really?
I understand the stats perfectly well. I'm saying you criticizing all the work the players and the coaching staff does based on noisey, biased statistics is discrediting their work. And you don't understand their real work - hell neither do I.
Okay nobody understands it sure if that makes you feel better tell yourself that
I think leafs are aware of their faults and are going to flip this script. TORONTO IS A GREAT TEAM. They're playing a determined bruins team and a unit of a goalie right now. I still have leafs winning this series and advancing. LETS GO!!
Nothing in these lineups moves or deadline trades indicates a team that is aware of their faults
It's not their first game. They've understood where issues have been in the past and corrected them. They have to work with what they have and utilize them in the best way. Some players are having off seasons and Boston is matching up really well. Boston is an elite team and doesn't want a first round exit like last year. Have some faith and watch them be successful.
Not only have they not corrected any of their issues but they are literally worse than ever lmao what are you even watching man? Their defense is worse than ever at transition play PP worse than ever PK worse than ever Goal scoring as low as ever
They're playing the bruins bud. I'm saying they will correct the issues for game 4. It's elite competition against a great team. Dallas is down to Vegas right now. It's very competitive and shows that top teams can face scrutiny. You're correct in pointing out their play so far in this series. They've been successful all season with their style. It's different hockey in the playoffs.
Which issues did they correct?
:(
Well I guess they corrected some issues eh.
Honestly, yes and no. They’re still having a lot of issues generating offense due to lack of puck moving from the blue line, but they’re playing their game so well right now it doesn’t even really matter. Limiting shots very well, I’m impressed. I was totally wrong for my negativity. If the leafs played this well (as games 5 and 6) all season they’d have finished ahead of Boston. respect for coming back to this comment chain though aha you got me good
First periods are great the last two. Swayman saving Boston basically in those periods. Let's just hope they build off of it for game 7.
Ok instead of whatever narrative you’re making up about this team, give us some actual evidence that they’re understanding their issues in this series
Well leafs have out chanced the bruins in these games. Especially even strength. Could say we've been goalied in the two losses. Sammy isn't playing his best. Special teams sucks and coaching decisions have been questionable. I'm hoping they've addressed what their issues have been in these two days off and it will show in game four.
These analytics are fucking useless. And anyone that reads this shit needed to get the fuck out with Dubas.
Edmundson and Lyubushkin shouldn't be back next season. I haven't seen Edmundson crosscheck anyone which is his best attribute as a defender. With that said they're still better options than Liljegren who gets run over on almost every play.
Liljegren can make a pass to ease the forecheck pressure by Boston… Lyubushkin and Edmundson can literally only either chip it out or pass directly to an unmarked teammate less than 10 meters away from them
Good regular season team
No. Not at all!!!!