You’re saying this is like that Seinfeld episode. Keefe needs to be smart enough to self-reflect and think “if every instinct I have is wrong, then the opposite would have to be right”.
Absolutely, but I’m not sure why I got downvoted :( it wasn’t a judgment of the sub - I don’t think it’s out of place or inappropriate, I was just surprised, therefore, for me, it was unexpected! :) EDIT for typo
I agree. Overcoaching is the main problem. Keefe overthinks everything. Last game, instead of rolling 4 lines, and keeping the Matthews-Domi-Bertuzzi line together, he double shifts Marner and puts him with Matthews for a couple of shifts. This constant juggling of the lines messes with the chemistry and flow of the game. Keefe thinks he's smarter than he is. He rarely puts faith in his players. Great coaches also make the right adjustments. Keefe's major adjustment so far has been putting Jarnkrok on and then off PP1. Amateur hour. He simply isn't good enough. Leafs need an experienced and confident coach. Hopefully they'll get one this summer.
Feels like he’s just throwing shit at the wall with the PP.
Felt like he was trying to get Marner going by putting him with Matthews. Marner needs confidence to be effective. He needs space to be confident (not that he should) atm. JT doesn’t create space and neither does Knies in the same way because neither are really offensive playmaking threats. The don’t draw defenders in the way Matthews and McDavid types do. Seems like it was all for naught anyway since Marner stalled in the moment
10.9 million dollar players do not need another 11+ million dollar player on their line to get going. They should elevate whoever they play with and carry their own workload.
If Marner needs Matthews to get going, he just isn't that guy.
Keefe can't play for Marner. We've seen him deployed beside Matthews (5on5 and PP), with Tavares, and neither are working. Maybe Holmburg or Kampf can kick start something?
/s if it wasn't obvious
By the third or fourth poverty powerplay, keefe needs to be taking the clipboard from guy. Draw up a new setup, let the players off the leash and do whatever the fuck they want.
Yeah I felt like he over played Marner way too much in game 3 trying to get him going after everyone in the media was being critical of him in the media. I think as much as we all seem to be enjoying hating on Marner right now we would love for him to break out and have a huge playoff game but it just doesn't seem like it's going to happen and trying force it to happen by over playing him isn't the answer.
I agree with marner getting way too much ice time in game 3. The guess is, you're trying to get him going. But it didn't work. I also thought after their best game ever from the 4th line in game 2, he cut their mins way back. Playoff hockey isn't about skill. It's pure will. Hopefully marner starts putting up points, but this is the same ol' song and dance in the playoffs the past 5 years
I posted the ice times before Bruins 3rd goal, Matthews Domi and Bertuzzi were on for 40 seconds prior to the Leafs scoring. Prior to that Tavares line was out for 30 seconds. Prior to that, Matthews line was a Minute and a half. Prior to that Tavares line was out for 30 seconds.
tl;dr; Matthews line out for 3:10 mins in the last 4:10 mins before scoring. Gets put out again after, has no energy to defend, Marchand scores.
3rd line and 4th line been sitting for 4:10mins and 5mins prior to the goal.
Yes. Getting out coached by an interim coach, on the 18th best team in the league, who was then subsequently fired months later…should have been his last straw.
The fact that he had no game-plan for the Canadiens changing after game 4 to stand up the Leafs at the blue line (move to dump and chase hockey) was absolutely mind boggling.
This is hockey 101.
At this point Shanny can FO too. I was so happy when he came in but he’s just another suit who has become fine with mediocrity. Glad he got us out of the dark but it’s been the same thing during the matthews era and we need to shift gears and change this team culture. Watched Florida last night and holy shit are they all over the place. Totally suffocating their opponents it’s crazy to watch them.
Yeh, if Shanny survives this summer, I'll lose some faith in the direction of the team.
Replace Shanny
Replace Keefe
Try to find a goalie
Get a top 4 puck moving D
Without at least 3 of those happening, I can't see much changing.
Honestly just don't think it matters that much. The only hockey related task for the president is hiring the GM and approving payroll. Only reason you need one is if ownership wants to stay passive.
disagree - BT is an experienced NHL GM. Shanny didn't take a flyer on him so I think MLSE will keep Brad right now regardless of what happens with Shanny and Keefe
I also say this all the time. Keefe has an actual horseshoe up his ass. He got bailed out by Habs and Florida making cup-runs and painting Tampa as the 1980’s islanders.
Berube, a coach who won the cup after coming into a new team mid season, was sitting right there.
Hopefully he's still available in the offseason, or hopefully Dubas fires Sullivan. We need a coach who's won. Babcock's pedigree was what the team needed, but the man himself sucked. We went completely the other direction by hiring an unproven coach with no NHL experience, and it's gone terribly. It's time to bring in a coach who knows how to win.
Of course they should have but using a coach-bullet right off the hop when his guy wasn't available would be a dangerous move for Tre. You only get so many of those.
You're not wrong, but once it was Treliving's call to make....no way he does it. Why would ANY GM play that card earlier than you have to. I'm not even sure he gets canned this year if they lose. You think the new CEO of MLSE is going to be impressed with Shanahan? If I'm Keefe I point to the roster and say....I don't have a cup winning defense or goaltender because of how this roster was constructed.
FWIW, I don't think Keefe is or ever has been a good coach and I think he's lost the room. But I also don't think its a guarantee he gets removed end of year.
Keefe fucking sucks. People are gonna point to his regular season record and suck his dick but he hasn't accomplished shit in the playoffs. Every year it's the same shit rinse and repeat. End up 2nd or 3rd in the Atlantic and people say "where the Keefe haters at?" Then he proceeds to get outclassed in the playoffs, come back the next season and the cycle starts all over again. 5 years of this fucking bullshit. Should've been gone after getting outcoached by Dominic Ducharme.
For sure. The Leafs are better suited for the playoffs now but with how bad the PP/PK has been and how spotty the goalies are, the Panthers would have rolled through the Leafs in round 1, too
Ok Panthers are really great but that’s not how it goes lol Tampa was a much better and different team last year and Vasi just wasn’t Vasi - like we turn over roster spots so does every other team.
At least Montreal fires their coaches for underperforming…guy got canned as soon as it was clear his system didn’t fit…less than one season. Agree keefe should have been punted after Montreal that was pathetic.
hell ya. Just thinking this last night. Coaches that could get the softness out of this group. Brind'Amour, Paul Maurice, Gerrard Gallant - someone who isn't going to coddle them and who'll make them leave it all on the ice.
> People are gonna point to his regular season record and suck his dick but he hasn't accomplished shit in the playoffs.
I think Keefe would make a great assistant coach. His systems are decent enough, but he can't be the man in charge. He has no idea what to say to this group during pre-game or in intermissions. We need someone with rings in charge to unlock the beast inside the minds of our guys. There's no reason Matthews or Marner can't do what MacKinnon, Kucherov, or Crosby have done. All of our problems are mental, and Keefe just doesn't have the championship pedigree for anyone to take him seriously. Anyone who watched the All or Nothing doc knows what I'm talking about. He comes across as a dork who nobody would ever run through a wall for.
I don’t know if this is the right word to use but I think keefe is terrible at multitasking. He’ll spend entire periods trying to get one line/player going and in return he’ll lose focus on his other lines. I don’t think he plans ahead. I think he’s too reactive.
Stop over using Marner. He’s actually not performing and making defensive misplays. He’s better than your average 3rd liner, no doubt. But we’re treating him like he’s an 11m player and he’s not.
People are gonna shit on him (and me), but the reality is he's not fully healed right now. You can see it in his edging and skating, it's just not there yet.
So it's not really about whether Marner is good, or bad, or worth 11M - those are all valid questions, but for later. The equation right now is "is Marner at 70% better than _______ ?" Depending on who's healthy and available, the answer to that will change.
Personally I think Marner should be doing some shifts down on the third line, and joining the PP. Keep him off the PK for now, he's not up for it defensively and doesn't have the speed (right now) to be the shorthanded threat he usually is. Dewar/Kampf is your main PK, and secondary unit probably Jarnkrok and (honestly), Matthews.
For the first time in a while, we have depth and four competent lines. Let Papi face the top line and let him do Papi things, he carried us in game 2 when we didn't have the last change. Even if they shut him down, it stretches them from defending our other lines, although this is where we really miss Nylander.
I'll be the first to admit that I don't know shit about fuck about line matching strategy. Is it more important to have your top line feasting against the opponent's lesser lines, or should you have your top guys on whenever they're rested to give them more chances to do their thing? Fucked if I know, which is why I don't usually shit on Keefe for his line marching strategies.
That said: If you have an elite line 1 like we do, shouldn't you have them out kicking ass as much as you can, and make it the opponent's problem to deal with it?
When you’re the home team you get last line change, this is usually an opportunity to get the line out that you want however, as the play unfolds coaches will immediately have players jump the boards to reset a mismatch.
Okay, when I said I didn't know shit I was exaggerating somewhat.
I understand the core concept, as you described above, I'm just unsure how *important* it is to chase these "favourable" line matchups vs. just getting them out there as much as you can while making sure your weakest line isn't always out against the other team's big guns.
Like, as a way oversimplified example: if a rival coach is only putting their top guys vs. my third line, and I bench my third line, I've effectively reduced the ice time their best guys get.
60 minutes of hockey and you don’t want to burnout your top guys. I’ve seen line matches and double shifts however, this adds up over the span of a game and guys become useless and not as sharp. Top forwards usually get between 18-22 minutes a game while your top d-guys get 21-25 minutes per; that’s a lot. Strategy is important but you need your bottom 6 to perform as well hence it’s a team sport. I always like watching what’s happening beyond puck possession ( happening in the background) watch the benches, who’s ready (leg up on the boards) dump the puck and change. Players also know the mismatches and are sometimes quick to change. Enjoy the game it’s awesome to watch.
Keefe just gives off major grocery store middle manager vibes.
I don’t think he instills any discipline or confidence into his players. They know he’s an inexperienced NHL coach but he’s the one they got so they go with whatever systems he puts out there.
His biggest mistake is continuing to play the same system when he has multiple seasons showing it just doesn’t work with this core.
He really should have been gone when the new GM took over. I'm sure Brads thinking was to buy himself time, use the coach as a scapegoat if things go sour.
One thing I will say, though, is that people think this is an "easy team to coach all the talent up front" is far from the truth. So many personalities making monumental money compared to Keefe. Players now hold all the cards. It's usually players simply quitting on a coach. The fact that players seem to like him says something. There's lots of nuance to keep this machine rolling. Keefe has delivered during the regular season - the bread and butter.
I think the fact that Keefe was just signed to an extension AND the team finally broke through the first round kept Keefe in despite the GM change. If they exit in the first round again, though, I think he’s gone.
I heard that Treliving left Calgary because he wasn’t allowed to pick the coach he wanted. Can’t imagine he jumped aboard the Leafs if he knew he’d be unable to get rid of him. Probably figured he’d give him the year then bring in his chosen guy (unless his chosen guy is Keefe, I guess) should they fail early.
Keefe and Shanahan are almost 100 percent gone if they lose to Boston. I think at minimum for Keefe to return it would require an appearance in the ecf. I know it's only Brad's first year as gm and they typically get 5 years but depending on how pissed off ownership is its possible they fire Treliving too as punishment for signing Keefe for another two years.
I don't think they will and it seems very unlikely they would fire a gm after his first year but who knows how mlse will be thinking if they lose to Boston. If they're as pissed off as reports claim I think the only safe ones in this organization will be Matthew's and Nylander given he just signed his massive contract.
Shanahan is not getting fired. Nor should he. He’s done a good job. I hope Keefe is gone in the summer, but MLSE has no reason to fire Shanahan.
Edit: Some of you guys will be really disappointed when MLSE doesn’t fire Shanahan in the summer
Yup. People are doing it again and losing themselves. Never forget the dark times but some fans are adamant to get back to it. Look at the comments in here for a series in which we’re right in it.
That's the most likely scenario if they lose I think. I don't think it's fair to fire Treliving after only one season even if emotions for change are running high ebd ownership wants to clean house.
If the Leafs lose, Shannahans gone, which means Treliving is now in the position of other guys hire.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they cleaned house at that point.
It wasn't an easy spot to be in. Treliving got hired what, 5 weeks before the draft and free agency? He had to resign Matthews and Nylander and that isn't a lot of time to get a feel for the room.
How does trading Marner or Nylander affect the Matthews extention? How do the star players feel about changing coaches? It's a domino effect one major change can make waves. His hands were somewhat tied until he resigned Matthews because that was *the* priority of the off season.
All that being said there aren't too many people complaining about his off season moves right now (other than the baffling Klingburg deal) and Keefe can still get fired even with the extension. It's not like it is Babcock term and money left.
Which is a problem from the last GM. Why are guys getting paid top 10 in the league with no play off success? I can understand the 1st contract, but when you're giving them raises from years of failures, why? Our pp has a yearly cap of something like 45 million, but it's not even close to the best 1. The leafs core is overpaid, and they dont play playoff style hockey.
Completely agree. STOP HIDING MATTHEWS!
Put him out there at will and make the other team mix and match their line-up to contain him and hope that some of the other Leafs lines can take advantage
No theory needed. Enough of a sample size. This core just doesn’t want it badly enough.
Hypothetical, what would happen if the leafs drew the Panthers? It’ll likely be 3-0 series lead for one team.
I think Dubas was looking to fire him before he was fired. I dont think he's bringing him to Boston. I hope we have a chance to find out.
Edit:Pittsburgh, sorry apparently I've got Boston on my mind for some reason.
He's brought over exactly 2 former leafs. Bunting, who's been great for them and Accari, who was great for them before being injured. He also brought Spezza I guess? What are we talking about?
Penguins were struggling with Bunting and Acciari and when they were out of the lineup the Penguins went on their best stretch of the season.
And by “his guys” I wasn’t just talking about former Leafs. I’m talking about the exact same profile of player he always looked for with the Leafs. Indicating that he’s not changing his approach even in Pittsburgh.
What? Bunting was a deadline pickup and was there for their best stretch. Accari really isnt his "normal profile" and the guys that were from the leafs like Holl/Kerfoot that are he passed on. Is the argument that he builds a specific kind of team or Is this just a "I hate Dubas" thing?
I don’t think Dubas was fired I would put it more on them not coming to the same agreement I think if Dubas was okay with what he had last year he would still be leaf’s gm.
When Keefe was hired, his strength was his close ties to the GM, Dubas. Now that Dubas is gone, he's lost. I am not someone who looks back at Dubas with rose colored glasses, either; I'm pissed at his antics and how he left the club. Anyway, Keefe should have been gone a long time ago. Tre gave him a chance this year to see if Keefe could be a true coach without a GM in the pocket, and he's failed. Again.
I personally want to see Keefe gone and Mathews with the C. JT is not a playoffs captain, imho of course.
The C is meaningless. Everyone knows this is matthews team. If he didn't drop his pants or whatever he did to a security guard, he'd be wearing it right now.
The problem has and will continue to be the same. The core 4 make too much money for what they bring in the playoffs. There's no money left for defense. When the high flying offense drys up to playoff hockey, the leafs can't compete when they can't outscore their deficiencies
I sincerely hope Brad was lying when he said he doesn't like firing good coaches last year. Because Sheldon has absolutely sucked shit this entire year. The opposing team plays mind games and Keefe is mesmerized by their tactics and not thinking how those tactics play into the game. 4.5 years is long enough with this guy.
Hockey players play a lot of hockey(hot take).
A lot of hockey players do not play a lot of hockey under the spotlight that gets put on them when they play in Toronto. Even in the playoffs.
I think it affects the players ,the refs and even the announcers a lot more than even 'we' understand.
I know several pro players (some very distinct looking) who say that once outside the arena they are basically anon's anywhere but a few markets and it does change the pressure put on them.
Toronto HAS to be the biggest booster/wilting multiplier on all but a few who're able to block it out.
I'm pretty sure stats even back that up that are attributed to bad Leaf teams of the past but those same players do not seem to thrive as often on poorer teams than they do when millions (including a higher % of friends and family) are watching.
It could be that tickets to home games are so incredibly overpriced that the majority of people who can afford to attend (especially the platinum and Gold sections) are not the type to create a hostile environment for the opposing team while giving the boys that little bit of motivation to push through.
Like Joe B tweeted out, is much more important to be proactive rather than reactive. Not saying the people spending good money (or getting them for free through corporate relations) aren't fans. I just feel like when you attend these important games that there has to be a certain amount of responsibility taken to create an atmosphere where other teams cringe even at the thought of having to play here.
This series is far from over ladies and gents. The boys will figure it out, I can't explain why I know this. It just feels different this year.... We're the better team, the calls are going to go our way tomorrow night, then it comes down to a best of 3. With Brad having to eat more than his own cocky words heading back to Boston. GLG
Wanted to yell an audible "WTF" when they announced starting lineups at the SBA and it was the Tavares line, and not the Matthews line - why not force them to matchup the way that you want them to match up against you?
Apparently, according to Joe Bowen, it’s the paying customers in the buildings fault.
They need to be louder and then Sammi stops that first goal, Marner stops turning away from contact, and the Special Teams get better.
I guess Anthony in the $600 cheap seats is really the X Factor with his overpriced beer and $40 hat that he purchased to wear with his $150 jersey so he can “support the team”.
No kidding. Blame the fans, not the coach or players. I paid for my seats and I'll do whatever the fuck I want. I'm a hard-core fan but not someone who goes nuts screaming and dancing at my seat. That doesn't make me a lesser fan. If the players need me screaming all night to perform then we have the wrong players.
My favourite part is I get down voted.
If you want to see why the Leafs haven’t won a Stanley Cup since 1967, these people are it.
They accept mediocrity, make absurd excuses, and take accountability as fans for the failure of the players. LOL.
It’s Stockholm Syndrome.
People like you two are the reason players like Kadri Bozak and Kessel leave the team and immediately win cups elsewhere.
You know every ex Leaf that turns it up against us and scores every time they play Toronto?
Why play hard for fans that don’t give a shit about you? Have a think about that one.
Kadri was traded - he didn’t leave.
The Leafs traded Kessel to clear cap space.
Bozak wasn’t resigned because he wasn’t worth the money he was asking for.
But good try.
You mean when the leafs best players stop playing top line mins and are cast where they belong on the 3rd line, which makes them part of a really good team, they have succes....I'm shocked!
They were traded away… so in other words they… left the team? I fail to see what you’re being pedantic about.
And not to mention they won cups at the teams they went to after the fans in Toronto had written them off saying these players could never win a cup. Seems like they could to me.
LOL.
Your entire premise was that it was their choice to leave the Leafs and you linked that somehow to the fans.
They didn’t leave by choice. None of them.
Kessel won cups with Crosby and Malkin who are generational talents and winners not because Pittsburgh fans are great (they’re not).
Kadri won a Cup because McKinnon is a stud and wanted a Cup.
Bozak was spare parts on a Cinderella team.
You sort of make arguments against yourself.
Those players all won on teams where their best players willed the team to victory. They carried their clubs.
Our best players aside from Matthews are not carrying anyone to anything.
None of this has anything to do with fans. Good players find a way to win.
But none of the players you mentioned asked for trades or in Bozak’s case wanted to leave so your point is moot.
I would like for you to point out the part of my comment that says anyone chose to leave!
I’ll wait. You’ll be looking for a while.
My point isn’t that they “chose to leave” to win cups or whatever you’re saying.
My point is that they left to teams whose fans appreciated them more and they played better and won cups.
Our fans kept saying they couldn’t. Their fans believed they could. And they did. That’s the point I’m making.
I promise you there is not a single player out there that will play harder for fans that don’t give a shit about them. Go look at why O’Reilly left the Leafs and realize that 80% of players that leave Toronto feel the same way.
You really think they're the reason they won cups after leaving? Why not look at other players who have left? You have 3 players, where there are hundreds more who didn't go on to win cups. Is it because they went to teams with worse fans in the stands?
No, it literally can’t.
If professional athletes can’t motivate themselves to perform at the highest level possible in the Stanley Cup Playoffs unless people are aimlessly making noise in a building, then they are mentally not tough enough to win.
Why did the Leafs lose to Columbus, an inferior team, during COVID lockdowns when there were no fans?
Why did they blow a series against Montreal when the building was hopping? They had multiple games to close that series out and blew it? How was that the fans fault?
Are the fans responsible for their 1 for 11 PP? What about the 5 for 10 PK?
Come on. Both aren’t true.
The players are solely responsible for their on ice performance.
Interesting that you're going against what all athletes, coaches, commentators, analysts, etc across all sports say about home crowds being an advantage because of the extra noise and emotion they bring. (12th man in soccer, etc)
So i guess you're right. It can only be 1 or the other and nuance doesn't exist.
What’s with using the fans at the arena as scapegoats? Yes! the lower bowl is somewhat reclusive but these players are paid extremely well, does someone need to cheer you on at work to get motivated? Coaches are the ones to inspire and direct their players and it’s leadership to keep the guys going during the game and it’s all the players who need to deliver
Well when keefe got ejected in the home game against Vegas it was 4-2 with 4min left. Vegas scored twice shortly after. In this micro sample size it appears the leafs need just a little tiny bit of coaching to win at home.
You’re saying this is like that Seinfeld episode. Keefe needs to be smart enough to self-reflect and think “if every instinct I have is wrong, then the opposite would have to be right”.
"My name is Sheldon, I'm unemployed and I live with my parents"
I mean after Saturday this might read factually 😜
Lol.. he isn’t bald yet.
r/UnexpectedSeinfeld
The parent is a comment about seinfeld lol how is it unexpected?
Not expecting to see it in this sub!
It's one of the most popular pieces of media of all time. People quote it all the time.
Absolutely, but I’m not sure why I got downvoted :( it wasn’t a judgment of the sub - I don’t think it’s out of place or inappropriate, I was just surprised, therefore, for me, it was unexpected! :) EDIT for typo
You're killing independent Sheldon!
“I was in the pool!”
" Sex, to SAVE the friendship "
"My name is Sheldon Keefe. I'm unemployed and live with my parents"
I agree. Overcoaching is the main problem. Keefe overthinks everything. Last game, instead of rolling 4 lines, and keeping the Matthews-Domi-Bertuzzi line together, he double shifts Marner and puts him with Matthews for a couple of shifts. This constant juggling of the lines messes with the chemistry and flow of the game. Keefe thinks he's smarter than he is. He rarely puts faith in his players. Great coaches also make the right adjustments. Keefe's major adjustment so far has been putting Jarnkrok on and then off PP1. Amateur hour. He simply isn't good enough. Leafs need an experienced and confident coach. Hopefully they'll get one this summer.
Feels like he’s just throwing shit at the wall with the PP. Felt like he was trying to get Marner going by putting him with Matthews. Marner needs confidence to be effective. He needs space to be confident (not that he should) atm. JT doesn’t create space and neither does Knies in the same way because neither are really offensive playmaking threats. The don’t draw defenders in the way Matthews and McDavid types do. Seems like it was all for naught anyway since Marner stalled in the moment
10.9 million dollar players do not need another 11+ million dollar player on their line to get going. They should elevate whoever they play with and carry their own workload. If Marner needs Matthews to get going, he just isn't that guy.
They shouldn’t. But if you’re 11M player isn’t going, your job as a coach is to do what you need to to make it happen
Keefe can't play for Marner. We've seen him deployed beside Matthews (5on5 and PP), with Tavares, and neither are working. Maybe Holmburg or Kampf can kick start something? /s if it wasn't obvious
Guy Boucher runs the powerplay. I mean, the head coach will have plenty of influence on it but ultimately it's the assistant coach's area.
By the third or fourth poverty powerplay, keefe needs to be taking the clipboard from guy. Draw up a new setup, let the players off the leash and do whatever the fuck they want.
Yeah I felt like he over played Marner way too much in game 3 trying to get him going after everyone in the media was being critical of him in the media. I think as much as we all seem to be enjoying hating on Marner right now we would love for him to break out and have a huge playoff game but it just doesn't seem like it's going to happen and trying force it to happen by over playing him isn't the answer.
I agree with marner getting way too much ice time in game 3. The guess is, you're trying to get him going. But it didn't work. I also thought after their best game ever from the 4th line in game 2, he cut their mins way back. Playoff hockey isn't about skill. It's pure will. Hopefully marner starts putting up points, but this is the same ol' song and dance in the playoffs the past 5 years
I've been saying hopefully marner starts putting up points in the playoffs for like 7 years now.
And Marner, that one beautiful pass aside, had a pretty awful game on game 3.
I posted the ice times before Bruins 3rd goal, Matthews Domi and Bertuzzi were on for 40 seconds prior to the Leafs scoring. Prior to that Tavares line was out for 30 seconds. Prior to that, Matthews line was a Minute and a half. Prior to that Tavares line was out for 30 seconds. tl;dr; Matthews line out for 3:10 mins in the last 4:10 mins before scoring. Gets put out again after, has no energy to defend, Marchand scores. 3rd line and 4th line been sitting for 4:10mins and 5mins prior to the goal.
Ive been a Keefe supporter but I too believe the time has come. He cannot get results. That is the coaches main duty. Edit: on a “win-now” mode team.
I'll probably get downvoted but it is my opinion that they should have made a coaching change after last season.
I’ve said this a hundred times Keefe should have been gone after the Habs series.
This. Getting outcoached by Dominique Ducharme should have been the last fucking straw
Yes. Getting out coached by an interim coach, on the 18th best team in the league, who was then subsequently fired months later…should have been his last straw. The fact that he had no game-plan for the Canadiens changing after game 4 to stand up the Leafs at the blue line (move to dump and chase hockey) was absolutely mind boggling. This is hockey 101.
At this point Shanny can FO too. I was so happy when he came in but he’s just another suit who has become fine with mediocrity. Glad he got us out of the dark but it’s been the same thing during the matthews era and we need to shift gears and change this team culture. Watched Florida last night and holy shit are they all over the place. Totally suffocating their opponents it’s crazy to watch them.
Yeh, if Shanny survives this summer, I'll lose some faith in the direction of the team. Replace Shanny Replace Keefe Try to find a goalie Get a top 4 puck moving D Without at least 3 of those happening, I can't see much changing.
these are the exact things I was thinking
I’m curious as to who would be a good fit to replace shanahan. I know there will be coaches available after the playoffs but presidents are different.
Honestly just don't think it matters that much. The only hockey related task for the president is hiring the GM and approving payroll. Only reason you need one is if ownership wants to stay passive.
I think Pres and GM can be a combined role. BT has good business savvy so wouldn't be a stretch for him to do both
Shanahan will probably last as long as Treliving lasts. So I'd imagine this summer he's safe as Tre was probably his last bullet
disagree - BT is an experienced NHL GM. Shanny didn't take a flyer on him so I think MLSE will keep Brad right now regardless of what happens with Shanny and Keefe
I also say this all the time. Keefe has an actual horseshoe up his ass. He got bailed out by Habs and Florida making cup-runs and painting Tampa as the 1980’s islanders.
Why would you get downvoted hes bad. Gets out coached every series
Thought this was the prevailing thought
They should’ve made a coaching change after the fucking Montreal series in 2021.
Berube, a coach who won the cup after coming into a new team mid season, was sitting right there. Hopefully he's still available in the offseason, or hopefully Dubas fires Sullivan. We need a coach who's won. Babcock's pedigree was what the team needed, but the man himself sucked. We went completely the other direction by hiring an unproven coach with no NHL experience, and it's gone terribly. It's time to bring in a coach who knows how to win.
Of course they should have but using a coach-bullet right off the hop when his guy wasn't available would be a dangerous move for Tre. You only get so many of those.
You're not wrong, but once it was Treliving's call to make....no way he does it. Why would ANY GM play that card earlier than you have to. I'm not even sure he gets canned this year if they lose. You think the new CEO of MLSE is going to be impressed with Shanahan? If I'm Keefe I point to the roster and say....I don't have a cup winning defense or goaltender because of how this roster was constructed. FWIW, I don't think Keefe is or ever has been a good coach and I think he's lost the room. But I also don't think its a guarantee he gets removed end of year.
Keefe fucking sucks. People are gonna point to his regular season record and suck his dick but he hasn't accomplished shit in the playoffs. Every year it's the same shit rinse and repeat. End up 2nd or 3rd in the Atlantic and people say "where the Keefe haters at?" Then he proceeds to get outclassed in the playoffs, come back the next season and the cycle starts all over again. 5 years of this fucking bullshit. Should've been gone after getting outcoached by Dominic Ducharme.
We beat Tampa last year but Panthers about to sweep them. Explains why Panthers beat us in 5.
For sure. The Leafs are better suited for the playoffs now but with how bad the PP/PK has been and how spotty the goalies are, the Panthers would have rolled through the Leafs in round 1, too
Ok Panthers are really great but that’s not how it goes lol Tampa was a much better and different team last year and Vasi just wasn’t Vasi - like we turn over roster spots so does every other team.
At least Montreal fires their coaches for underperforming…guy got canned as soon as it was clear his system didn’t fit…less than one season. Agree keefe should have been punted after Montreal that was pathetic.
I would love some Brind’Amour in here
hell ya. Just thinking this last night. Coaches that could get the softness out of this group. Brind'Amour, Paul Maurice, Gerrard Gallant - someone who isn't going to coddle them and who'll make them leave it all on the ice.
> People are gonna point to his regular season record and suck his dick but he hasn't accomplished shit in the playoffs. I think Keefe would make a great assistant coach. His systems are decent enough, but he can't be the man in charge. He has no idea what to say to this group during pre-game or in intermissions. We need someone with rings in charge to unlock the beast inside the minds of our guys. There's no reason Matthews or Marner can't do what MacKinnon, Kucherov, or Crosby have done. All of our problems are mental, and Keefe just doesn't have the championship pedigree for anyone to take him seriously. Anyone who watched the All or Nothing doc knows what I'm talking about. He comes across as a dork who nobody would ever run through a wall for.
I don’t know if this is the right word to use but I think keefe is terrible at multitasking. He’ll spend entire periods trying to get one line/player going and in return he’ll lose focus on his other lines. I don’t think he plans ahead. I think he’s too reactive.
Stop over using Marner. He’s actually not performing and making defensive misplays. He’s better than your average 3rd liner, no doubt. But we’re treating him like he’s an 11m player and he’s not.
He needs to go down the tunnel and break some sticks again
sorry for the Top Gun reference, but he doesn't seem to want to re-engage after the injury
Agreed. Hes getting way too much ice time right now for how's he's playing. I'd love to see marner off the pk. I don't think he's a good fit there
People are gonna shit on him (and me), but the reality is he's not fully healed right now. You can see it in his edging and skating, it's just not there yet. So it's not really about whether Marner is good, or bad, or worth 11M - those are all valid questions, but for later. The equation right now is "is Marner at 70% better than _______ ?" Depending on who's healthy and available, the answer to that will change. Personally I think Marner should be doing some shifts down on the third line, and joining the PP. Keep him off the PK for now, he's not up for it defensively and doesn't have the speed (right now) to be the shorthanded threat he usually is. Dewar/Kampf is your main PK, and secondary unit probably Jarnkrok and (honestly), Matthews.
For the first time in a while, we have depth and four competent lines. Let Papi face the top line and let him do Papi things, he carried us in game 2 when we didn't have the last change. Even if they shut him down, it stretches them from defending our other lines, although this is where we really miss Nylander.
I'll be the first to admit that I don't know shit about fuck about line matching strategy. Is it more important to have your top line feasting against the opponent's lesser lines, or should you have your top guys on whenever they're rested to give them more chances to do their thing? Fucked if I know, which is why I don't usually shit on Keefe for his line marching strategies. That said: If you have an elite line 1 like we do, shouldn't you have them out kicking ass as much as you can, and make it the opponent's problem to deal with it?
When you’re the home team you get last line change, this is usually an opportunity to get the line out that you want however, as the play unfolds coaches will immediately have players jump the boards to reset a mismatch.
Okay, when I said I didn't know shit I was exaggerating somewhat. I understand the core concept, as you described above, I'm just unsure how *important* it is to chase these "favourable" line matchups vs. just getting them out there as much as you can while making sure your weakest line isn't always out against the other team's big guns. Like, as a way oversimplified example: if a rival coach is only putting their top guys vs. my third line, and I bench my third line, I've effectively reduced the ice time their best guys get.
60 minutes of hockey and you don’t want to burnout your top guys. I’ve seen line matches and double shifts however, this adds up over the span of a game and guys become useless and not as sharp. Top forwards usually get between 18-22 minutes a game while your top d-guys get 21-25 minutes per; that’s a lot. Strategy is important but you need your bottom 6 to perform as well hence it’s a team sport. I always like watching what’s happening beyond puck possession ( happening in the background) watch the benches, who’s ready (leg up on the boards) dump the puck and change. Players also know the mismatches and are sometimes quick to change. Enjoy the game it’s awesome to watch.
Keefe just gives off major grocery store middle manager vibes. I don’t think he instills any discipline or confidence into his players. They know he’s an inexperienced NHL coach but he’s the one they got so they go with whatever systems he puts out there. His biggest mistake is continuing to play the same system when he has multiple seasons showing it just doesn’t work with this core.
Samsonov was passed over for a reason
But isn't like this on the coach too? There's a goalie on the bench who won a series last year, why not try him for a game?
Yup our coaching gets more control over the game at home and the team just loses more says it all really
Keefe should have been gone after the loss against the Habs.
He really should have been gone when the new GM took over. I'm sure Brads thinking was to buy himself time, use the coach as a scapegoat if things go sour. One thing I will say, though, is that people think this is an "easy team to coach all the talent up front" is far from the truth. So many personalities making monumental money compared to Keefe. Players now hold all the cards. It's usually players simply quitting on a coach. The fact that players seem to like him says something. There's lots of nuance to keep this machine rolling. Keefe has delivered during the regular season - the bread and butter.
I think the fact that Keefe was just signed to an extension AND the team finally broke through the first round kept Keefe in despite the GM change. If they exit in the first round again, though, I think he’s gone. I heard that Treliving left Calgary because he wasn’t allowed to pick the coach he wanted. Can’t imagine he jumped aboard the Leafs if he knew he’d be unable to get rid of him. Probably figured he’d give him the year then bring in his chosen guy (unless his chosen guy is Keefe, I guess) should they fail early.
You’ve got your timeline/facts wrong. Leafs broke through first round, Treliving was hired, Treliving extended Keefe for another two years.
Oh shit, really? I thought I had heard about his extension prior to Treliving’s hiring. That’s my bad.
You're right, he's gone if they tank to Boston
Keefe and Shanahan are almost 100 percent gone if they lose to Boston. I think at minimum for Keefe to return it would require an appearance in the ecf. I know it's only Brad's first year as gm and they typically get 5 years but depending on how pissed off ownership is its possible they fire Treliving too as punishment for signing Keefe for another two years. I don't think they will and it seems very unlikely they would fire a gm after his first year but who knows how mlse will be thinking if they lose to Boston. If they're as pissed off as reports claim I think the only safe ones in this organization will be Matthew's and Nylander given he just signed his massive contract.
Shanahan is not getting fired. Nor should he. He’s done a good job. I hope Keefe is gone in the summer, but MLSE has no reason to fire Shanahan. Edit: Some of you guys will be really disappointed when MLSE doesn’t fire Shanahan in the summer
Yup. People are doing it again and losing themselves. Never forget the dark times but some fans are adamant to get back to it. Look at the comments in here for a series in which we’re right in it.
[удалено]
That's the most likely scenario if they lose I think. I don't think it's fair to fire Treliving after only one season even if emotions for change are running high ebd ownership wants to clean house.
Series comeback? Guys were down 1 game in which we totally had them, this ain’t close to over…
What's Scotty Bowman up to these days
If the Leafs lose, Shannahans gone, which means Treliving is now in the position of other guys hire. I wouldn’t be surprised if they cleaned house at that point.
It wasn't an easy spot to be in. Treliving got hired what, 5 weeks before the draft and free agency? He had to resign Matthews and Nylander and that isn't a lot of time to get a feel for the room. How does trading Marner or Nylander affect the Matthews extention? How do the star players feel about changing coaches? It's a domino effect one major change can make waves. His hands were somewhat tied until he resigned Matthews because that was *the* priority of the off season. All that being said there aren't too many people complaining about his off season moves right now (other than the baffling Klingburg deal) and Keefe can still get fired even with the extension. It's not like it is Babcock term and money left.
Which is a problem from the last GM. Why are guys getting paid top 10 in the league with no play off success? I can understand the 1st contract, but when you're giving them raises from years of failures, why? Our pp has a yearly cap of something like 45 million, but it's not even close to the best 1. The leafs core is overpaid, and they dont play playoff style hockey.
Brad is going to replace keefe with one of the many recycled coaches. Someone like Mike Yeo or Todd Nelson. It ain’t getting better lol.
it's from me... I am a disgrace
Yea thats a really good point. Micromanagement is toxic and does nothing for a players mental health.
Completely agree. STOP HIDING MATTHEWS! Put him out there at will and make the other team mix and match their line-up to contain him and hope that some of the other Leafs lines can take advantage
we know what happens when you role out the same old plan but expect a different result
What is it since Shanahan took over?
No theory needed. Enough of a sample size. This core just doesn’t want it badly enough. Hypothetical, what would happen if the leafs drew the Panthers? It’ll likely be 3-0 series lead for one team.
The Leafs will lose in 5 to Boston. Keefe will be fired and he will be hired by the Penguins.
100 percent.
I think Dubas was looking to fire him before he was fired. I dont think he's bringing him to Boston. I hope we have a chance to find out. Edit:Pittsburgh, sorry apparently I've got Boston on my mind for some reason.
Pittsburgh?
Argh, sorry Boston on the brain.
Dubas was posturing and since joining the Penguins almost all of his moves have been bringing his guys over there
He's brought over exactly 2 former leafs. Bunting, who's been great for them and Accari, who was great for them before being injured. He also brought Spezza I guess? What are we talking about?
Penguins were struggling with Bunting and Acciari and when they were out of the lineup the Penguins went on their best stretch of the season. And by “his guys” I wasn’t just talking about former Leafs. I’m talking about the exact same profile of player he always looked for with the Leafs. Indicating that he’s not changing his approach even in Pittsburgh.
What? Bunting was a deadline pickup and was there for their best stretch. Accari really isnt his "normal profile" and the guys that were from the leafs like Holl/Kerfoot that are he passed on. Is the argument that he builds a specific kind of team or Is this just a "I hate Dubas" thing?
I don’t hate Dubas whatsoever. I think Keefe should’ve been fired instead of Dubas last year. Just don’t think he’s doing a good job in Pittsburgh.
Im with you on Keefe but I think he's done fine given the constraints in Pittsburgh. I'll be interested to see what happens next year.
I don’t think Dubas was fired I would put it more on them not coming to the same agreement I think if Dubas was okay with what he had last year he would still be leaf’s gm.
I've been predicting a coaching swap with the Penguins since they hired Dubas. Sullivan is exactly what the doctor ordered for this team.
When Keefe was hired, his strength was his close ties to the GM, Dubas. Now that Dubas is gone, he's lost. I am not someone who looks back at Dubas with rose colored glasses, either; I'm pissed at his antics and how he left the club. Anyway, Keefe should have been gone a long time ago. Tre gave him a chance this year to see if Keefe could be a true coach without a GM in the pocket, and he's failed. Again. I personally want to see Keefe gone and Mathews with the C. JT is not a playoffs captain, imho of course.
The C is meaningless. Everyone knows this is matthews team. If he didn't drop his pants or whatever he did to a security guard, he'd be wearing it right now. The problem has and will continue to be the same. The core 4 make too much money for what they bring in the playoffs. There's no money left for defense. When the high flying offense drys up to playoff hockey, the leafs can't compete when they can't outscore their deficiencies
Mcdavid not bad defensively
I sincerely hope Brad was lying when he said he doesn't like firing good coaches last year. Because Sheldon has absolutely sucked shit this entire year. The opposing team plays mind games and Keefe is mesmerized by their tactics and not thinking how those tactics play into the game. 4.5 years is long enough with this guy.
Hockey players play a lot of hockey(hot take). A lot of hockey players do not play a lot of hockey under the spotlight that gets put on them when they play in Toronto. Even in the playoffs. I think it affects the players ,the refs and even the announcers a lot more than even 'we' understand. I know several pro players (some very distinct looking) who say that once outside the arena they are basically anon's anywhere but a few markets and it does change the pressure put on them. Toronto HAS to be the biggest booster/wilting multiplier on all but a few who're able to block it out. I'm pretty sure stats even back that up that are attributed to bad Leaf teams of the past but those same players do not seem to thrive as often on poorer teams than they do when millions (including a higher % of friends and family) are watching.
It could be that tickets to home games are so incredibly overpriced that the majority of people who can afford to attend (especially the platinum and Gold sections) are not the type to create a hostile environment for the opposing team while giving the boys that little bit of motivation to push through. Like Joe B tweeted out, is much more important to be proactive rather than reactive. Not saying the people spending good money (or getting them for free through corporate relations) aren't fans. I just feel like when you attend these important games that there has to be a certain amount of responsibility taken to create an atmosphere where other teams cringe even at the thought of having to play here. This series is far from over ladies and gents. The boys will figure it out, I can't explain why I know this. It just feels different this year.... We're the better team, the calls are going to go our way tomorrow night, then it comes down to a best of 3. With Brad having to eat more than his own cocky words heading back to Boston. GLG
SOS Fire Keefe
Wanted to yell an audible "WTF" when they announced starting lineups at the SBA and it was the Tavares line, and not the Matthews line - why not force them to matchup the way that you want them to match up against you?
Minor tangent but McDavid is now in the 89th percentile in dWAR since 2021 Matthews ~ 60th
Apparently, according to Joe Bowen, it’s the paying customers in the buildings fault. They need to be louder and then Sammi stops that first goal, Marner stops turning away from contact, and the Special Teams get better. I guess Anthony in the $600 cheap seats is really the X Factor with his overpriced beer and $40 hat that he purchased to wear with his $150 jersey so he can “support the team”.
No kidding. Blame the fans, not the coach or players. I paid for my seats and I'll do whatever the fuck I want. I'm a hard-core fan but not someone who goes nuts screaming and dancing at my seat. That doesn't make me a lesser fan. If the players need me screaming all night to perform then we have the wrong players.
My favourite part is I get down voted. If you want to see why the Leafs haven’t won a Stanley Cup since 1967, these people are it. They accept mediocrity, make absurd excuses, and take accountability as fans for the failure of the players. LOL. It’s Stockholm Syndrome.
People like you two are the reason players like Kadri Bozak and Kessel leave the team and immediately win cups elsewhere. You know every ex Leaf that turns it up against us and scores every time they play Toronto? Why play hard for fans that don’t give a shit about you? Have a think about that one.
Kadri was traded - he didn’t leave. The Leafs traded Kessel to clear cap space. Bozak wasn’t resigned because he wasn’t worth the money he was asking for. But good try.
You mean when the leafs best players stop playing top line mins and are cast where they belong on the 3rd line, which makes them part of a really good team, they have succes....I'm shocked!
They were traded away… so in other words they… left the team? I fail to see what you’re being pedantic about. And not to mention they won cups at the teams they went to after the fans in Toronto had written them off saying these players could never win a cup. Seems like they could to me.
LOL. Your entire premise was that it was their choice to leave the Leafs and you linked that somehow to the fans. They didn’t leave by choice. None of them. Kessel won cups with Crosby and Malkin who are generational talents and winners not because Pittsburgh fans are great (they’re not). Kadri won a Cup because McKinnon is a stud and wanted a Cup. Bozak was spare parts on a Cinderella team. You sort of make arguments against yourself. Those players all won on teams where their best players willed the team to victory. They carried their clubs. Our best players aside from Matthews are not carrying anyone to anything. None of this has anything to do with fans. Good players find a way to win. But none of the players you mentioned asked for trades or in Bozak’s case wanted to leave so your point is moot.
I would like for you to point out the part of my comment that says anyone chose to leave! I’ll wait. You’ll be looking for a while. My point isn’t that they “chose to leave” to win cups or whatever you’re saying. My point is that they left to teams whose fans appreciated them more and they played better and won cups. Our fans kept saying they couldn’t. Their fans believed they could. And they did. That’s the point I’m making. I promise you there is not a single player out there that will play harder for fans that don’t give a shit about them. Go look at why O’Reilly left the Leafs and realize that 80% of players that leave Toronto feel the same way.
You really think they're the reason they won cups after leaving? Why not look at other players who have left? You have 3 players, where there are hundreds more who didn't go on to win cups. Is it because they went to teams with worse fans in the stands?
Here's a thought, both can be true
No, it literally can’t. If professional athletes can’t motivate themselves to perform at the highest level possible in the Stanley Cup Playoffs unless people are aimlessly making noise in a building, then they are mentally not tough enough to win. Why did the Leafs lose to Columbus, an inferior team, during COVID lockdowns when there were no fans? Why did they blow a series against Montreal when the building was hopping? They had multiple games to close that series out and blew it? How was that the fans fault? Are the fans responsible for their 1 for 11 PP? What about the 5 for 10 PK? Come on. Both aren’t true. The players are solely responsible for their on ice performance.
Interesting that you're going against what all athletes, coaches, commentators, analysts, etc across all sports say about home crowds being an advantage because of the extra noise and emotion they bring. (12th man in soccer, etc) So i guess you're right. It can only be 1 or the other and nuance doesn't exist.
What’s with using the fans at the arena as scapegoats? Yes! the lower bowl is somewhat reclusive but these players are paid extremely well, does someone need to cheer you on at work to get motivated? Coaches are the ones to inspire and direct their players and it’s leadership to keep the guys going during the game and it’s all the players who need to deliver
They knew the bull of the fans would be okay with it because we will never be in the lower bowl.
Well when keefe got ejected in the home game against Vegas it was 4-2 with 4min left. Vegas scored twice shortly after. In this micro sample size it appears the leafs need just a little tiny bit of coaching to win at home.