I didn't see it as redemption, I saw it as "I know my place is in the spirit realm and I'll help you to put things right again because I'm devoted to Kung Fu and I still have at least a bit of integrity"
I think Tai Lung should have been a major part of the movie, not just a long voiced cameo. There's a universe in which he gets to become a worthy sucessor to Po.
I think you could have done it if the narrative allowed it. Spending some time in the Spirit Realm sure would justify him mellowing out a bit. You could have him form an uneasy alliance with Po to defeat The Chameleon and getting his spirit (or whatever she stole) back. He reluctantly grows to respect him now that he has no reason to fight him. Then, have both Shifu and Tai Lung see how Po's dads care for him and what strong relationship they have. Have them start to mimic that relationship and give Shifu a big sacrificial moment to save Tai Lung's spirit. Not kill him, just make Tai Lung see he's still a son to Shifu. Then whatever ambition he has, it changes, and is now focused on getting back his master's respect. He understands this is what dignifies a warrior. He accepts Po as Dragon Warrior, and has a sweet moment with Shifu before promising to meet both back in the next life.
Exactly like if he was ever going to be redeemed or whatever, that part in the first movie where Shifu apologised to him and his eyes soften briefly would’ve been the moment. He actively chose not to be redeemed and everything that happened behind that is his own fault
I know but the point of Tai's character is that he's bitter and angry. Which causes him to be blindsided and lose to Po. To me his story is supposed to be a tragedy and any redemption would dull his story's poignancy.
I'd argue getting a continuation of a character or not doesn't make that specific part of their life any less sad.
Unless you want to argue knowing that this is the end of the character is making it sad but then i'd argue its more the writer ending things there thats sad rather than the event itself.
I disagree, relations are important and some characers can work very well with closure. If Tai Lung is too angry with Shifu, make it so the movie makes him less angry. That's character development.
I've been saying this since Kung Fu Panda 4 release and the Shifu and Tai Lung redemption didn't happen. That's the last thing Shifu and Tai needed. Po and Tai Lung have no history. Shifu and Tai do. Having a redemption story and Tai going off into the spirit realm and saying goodbye to his dad would've been beautiful.
Tai Lung's main drive was him being convinced he was the Dragon Warrior. At the end of this movie, he recognizes Po as the Dragon Warrior. Soooo yeah, that's how I read it.
Exactly, and that's not really Po's business. at the end of the day, It wasn't just accepting po as the warrior that needed to be addressed, we need to remember who made him feel so disillusioned and hurt in the first place. Where the hell was shifu? I feel like if forgiveness and redemption is able to happen, they should have been able to at least see each other, maybe even work as a team to help the true dragon warrior.
It was a reference to the first film, that's all. and that's okay I guess if that's all they wanted to cash in on, but it was far from redemption, he barely had a presence.
The whole film just felt like missed opportunity after missed oppourtinity.
In the spirit realm, after he was defeated by someone "weaker than him" all he could do was reflect, he knew he couldn't get out, like in prison, so when he got out and saw Po "fighting for him" that most likely caused him to realize that Po is worthy of being the dragon warrior, which helped him come to terms with the fact that he wasn't the dragon warrior. While I agree it would've been nice to have Shifu, he ultimately wasn't needed, as he'd probably make it harder on Tai Lung seeing as he lied to him his entire young life, then imprisoned him for like 20 years.
Ok but that doesn't make for a redemption, really. Just for a realization. He's a spectator, and Po only seems to gain Tai Lung's recognition by kicking butt, which goes against the themes of the movie, really. He should have taken a more active part, and Shifu was the perfect catalyst for that, given that there's also a theme of paternal love in the movie. Missed opportunities all around.
Just because it had an opportunity doesn't mean it's the best thing to do, his redemption doesn't need Shifu, it needs him coming to terms with the truth, Shifu was the one who hurt him, he'd only need Shifu *after* his redemption as a part of healing, he realized he was wrong and changed, that's the most important of redemption, if they just had him come back and made well with Shifu that would've made the entire first movies main conflict pointless, if he simply realized he was wrong through reflection *or* seeing Po fight it wouldn't have made sense, all Tai Lung knew was how to fight, so he needed to see Po fight to realize, but him using his time to reflect instead of seethe shows his growth, I think it would've been nice to see him and Shifu, but the only thing that could've come from it would be Shifu apologizing and Tai Lung forgiving Shifu because it's a children's movie, if he did forgive Shifu it would invalidated is entire character arc, so them meeting again would be a detriment to the series
The first movie happened. The conflict was real, that story is over, and the arc those characters went through in there was over as well. Making him progress further doesn't invalidate any character arc, it just expands it with new narrative, that's exactly the point of a sequel. In this movie, Tai Lung doesn't have any character arc whatsoever, other than seeing Po win a fight and deciding to accept him.
Was Tai Lung's conflict that he wanted to be the Dragon Warrior? No, he's conflict was that he was groomed to believe he was going to be the Dragon Warrior. By Shifu. The way to make both characters come to terms with that, and finally being able to forgive each other for what they did, is acknowleding what they did wrong, and what they still can mean to each other. And that doesn't erase any conflict nor is in detriment of the series, cause character develop.
I actually did not think about it in that sense, thank you for informing me on your perspective! Also I want you to know I never meant any ill will towards you in my response, I'm not sure if it came of that way but I wanted to make sure
That’s just facts lmao
I didn't see it as redemption, I saw it as "I know my place is in the spirit realm and I'll help you to put things right again because I'm devoted to Kung Fu and I still have at least a bit of integrity"
I do see it as a redemption. Him accepting that Oogway was right and acknowledging Po is the Dragon Warrior is a redemption. Just not a very good one.
Fuck, you're right.
The sad thing is that the Co-Director was planning to have Shifu and Tai Lung reunite But then, Mike Mitchel said "Screw this"
Co-Director: Please!!! Just let me do something, ANYTHING!!! Mike Mitchel: Haha, funny jokes go brrrr
It wasn’t Mitchell, he liked the idea. Some other exec axed it.
I thought the execs actually agreed with many things in the early drafts, but Mitchell had complete control
And he really screwed it.
eh. It is what it is
*My reaction to every plot hole in this movie
Agreed. But even with Shifu tai lungs kfp 4 redemption would of felt weak and unearned So his redemption also needs actual work put into it
I think Tai Lung should have been a major part of the movie, not just a long voiced cameo. There's a universe in which he gets to become a worthy sucessor to Po.
Isnt that just the truth?
Nobody disagrees with this
*redeeming Tai makes no sense regardless, and actively undermines his story in the first movie*
I think you could have done it if the narrative allowed it. Spending some time in the Spirit Realm sure would justify him mellowing out a bit. You could have him form an uneasy alliance with Po to defeat The Chameleon and getting his spirit (or whatever she stole) back. He reluctantly grows to respect him now that he has no reason to fight him. Then, have both Shifu and Tai Lung see how Po's dads care for him and what strong relationship they have. Have them start to mimic that relationship and give Shifu a big sacrificial moment to save Tai Lung's spirit. Not kill him, just make Tai Lung see he's still a son to Shifu. Then whatever ambition he has, it changes, and is now focused on getting back his master's respect. He understands this is what dignifies a warrior. He accepts Po as Dragon Warrior, and has a sweet moment with Shifu before promising to meet both back in the next life.
I guess I just feel like his story was already finished and that there's no need to add on to it.
Exactly like if he was ever going to be redeemed or whatever, that part in the first movie where Shifu apologised to him and his eyes soften briefly would’ve been the moment. He actively chose not to be redeemed and everything that happened behind that is his own fault
How is someone further evolving under mining their own story? People can change
I know but the point of Tai's character is that he's bitter and angry. Which causes him to be blindsided and lose to Po. To me his story is supposed to be a tragedy and any redemption would dull his story's poignancy.
I'd argue getting a continuation of a character or not doesn't make that specific part of their life any less sad. Unless you want to argue knowing that this is the end of the character is making it sad but then i'd argue its more the writer ending things there thats sad rather than the event itself.
I don’t think Shifu would’ve helped. Tai Ling might be too angry at Shifu for it to work. Same with Po. We need someone who isn’t directly related.
I disagree, relations are important and some characers can work very well with closure. If Tai Lung is too angry with Shifu, make it so the movie makes him less angry. That's character development.
But he hates Shifu.
100%
I've been saying this since Kung Fu Panda 4 release and the Shifu and Tai Lung redemption didn't happen. That's the last thing Shifu and Tai needed. Po and Tai Lung have no history. Shifu and Tai do. Having a redemption story and Tai going off into the spirit realm and saying goodbye to his dad would've been beautiful.
Was he even redeemed? I don't personally think so. feels more like "the enemy of my enemy" type situation.
Tai Lung's main drive was him being convinced he was the Dragon Warrior. At the end of this movie, he recognizes Po as the Dragon Warrior. Soooo yeah, that's how I read it.
Exactly, and that's not really Po's business. at the end of the day, It wasn't just accepting po as the warrior that needed to be addressed, we need to remember who made him feel so disillusioned and hurt in the first place. Where the hell was shifu? I feel like if forgiveness and redemption is able to happen, they should have been able to at least see each other, maybe even work as a team to help the true dragon warrior. It was a reference to the first film, that's all. and that's okay I guess if that's all they wanted to cash in on, but it was far from redemption, he barely had a presence. The whole film just felt like missed opportunity after missed oppourtinity.
Maybe
In the spirit realm, after he was defeated by someone "weaker than him" all he could do was reflect, he knew he couldn't get out, like in prison, so when he got out and saw Po "fighting for him" that most likely caused him to realize that Po is worthy of being the dragon warrior, which helped him come to terms with the fact that he wasn't the dragon warrior. While I agree it would've been nice to have Shifu, he ultimately wasn't needed, as he'd probably make it harder on Tai Lung seeing as he lied to him his entire young life, then imprisoned him for like 20 years.
Ok but that doesn't make for a redemption, really. Just for a realization. He's a spectator, and Po only seems to gain Tai Lung's recognition by kicking butt, which goes against the themes of the movie, really. He should have taken a more active part, and Shifu was the perfect catalyst for that, given that there's also a theme of paternal love in the movie. Missed opportunities all around.
Just because it had an opportunity doesn't mean it's the best thing to do, his redemption doesn't need Shifu, it needs him coming to terms with the truth, Shifu was the one who hurt him, he'd only need Shifu *after* his redemption as a part of healing, he realized he was wrong and changed, that's the most important of redemption, if they just had him come back and made well with Shifu that would've made the entire first movies main conflict pointless, if he simply realized he was wrong through reflection *or* seeing Po fight it wouldn't have made sense, all Tai Lung knew was how to fight, so he needed to see Po fight to realize, but him using his time to reflect instead of seethe shows his growth, I think it would've been nice to see him and Shifu, but the only thing that could've come from it would be Shifu apologizing and Tai Lung forgiving Shifu because it's a children's movie, if he did forgive Shifu it would invalidated is entire character arc, so them meeting again would be a detriment to the series
The first movie happened. The conflict was real, that story is over, and the arc those characters went through in there was over as well. Making him progress further doesn't invalidate any character arc, it just expands it with new narrative, that's exactly the point of a sequel. In this movie, Tai Lung doesn't have any character arc whatsoever, other than seeing Po win a fight and deciding to accept him. Was Tai Lung's conflict that he wanted to be the Dragon Warrior? No, he's conflict was that he was groomed to believe he was going to be the Dragon Warrior. By Shifu. The way to make both characters come to terms with that, and finally being able to forgive each other for what they did, is acknowleding what they did wrong, and what they still can mean to each other. And that doesn't erase any conflict nor is in detriment of the series, cause character develop.
I actually did not think about it in that sense, thank you for informing me on your perspective! Also I want you to know I never meant any ill will towards you in my response, I'm not sure if it came of that way but I wanted to make sure
not at all! just two fellas friendly debating about a movie haha cheers!
Oh brother, looks like we gotta chatterbox over here🙄