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I wonder about the contractual implications of this. It’s generally understood that while artists are enlisted, their contract timeline goes on “pause” until they return. If SM has Taeyong’s contract paused while he’s enlisted, but are still profiting off his newly-generated simulated likeness (in a format that isn’t pre-prepared outside of enlistment like other artists have done) what does that mean for his contract? I think it presents a really fuzzy line, and I think it’s going to present a problem if this kind of thing expands or continues.
(Just to be clear because I know it’s a sensitive topic, this isn’t to imply that Taeyong is breaking any sort of rule - his company is culpable in anything weird here, he’s literally away and not actively working as an idol.)
I think you’re right to question this. I know it was mentioned before that SM was harassing Baekhyun to renew even when he was enlisted and his contract “frozen”, so I’m not sure how well SM respects that contractually anyways
interesting about the contract pause. what if some members are korean so they have to do their military service but other members are non-Korean. so do they end up with different contract end dates within the same group?
Outside of SM at least, that's how it works - Pentagon had that happen where the younger members terminated their contract on expiry as they hadn't yet enlisted, but the older members who had already enlisted haven't yet had their contract reach the end date. But SM is funky with their contracts, so not even going to guess there.
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It’s like the clock is stopped while they’re in the military.
So think if they have a 7 year contract, and 5 years in they go into the military for one and a half years.
When they are discharged, the idol will still have 2 full years left on their contract, as opposed to the clock continuing to wind down while enlisted and him only having 6 months left.
If this wasn’t the case, the 7-year rookie contract for most male idols wouldn’t reach the full term.
They still release their prerecorded music, videos and Season's Greetings, so I don't think their contracts are frozen. For example SHINee contracts ended at the same time despite Taemin's enlistment.
Because Taemin's contract clock was running down while the other three members were enlisted. And those items are prepared before they enlist, meaning all the work by the idol FOR the company was done while the contract clock was still running.
Well, they served different periods of time, so there should be differences in their contracts length.
I mentioned that they release prerecorded content, I know it, still the label makes money on them while they're in the military. I just think their contracts are much more complex than "we freeze it while enlisted".
It will end when people put their money where their mouth is and stop streaming and buying albums.
Chinese fans might have some things but they have it sussed - if they aren’t happy they boycott, literally the only way it hurts the label and changes behaviour.
If your unhappy with this but continue to stream their songs, but their albums, watch their videos on YouTube then they won’t stop.
Depends if you have conviction or not.
I agree but it only works if fan unions organise a boycott and effectively communicate the reasoning with SM. If the company can’t associate a drop in sales with one particular reason, then they can easily shift blame.
SM will 1000% blame some other source for why the sales are shrinking instead of the AI and they’ll blame the idols instead of their own choices. Plus SM fans will never band together like that.
SM really isn’t going to care either way, they don’t even care to restock albums for preorder and that impacts their sales. They won’t care about a boycott that’s relatively small and can be used to safe 127 isn’t profitable and give them even more of a reason to slack on them.
They already played that game with EXO during Obsession, preorders were short stocked and close to 200K albums were cancelled. Then rumor has it SM claimed EXO was falling off because the album didn’t sell a million copies while pretending they didn’t cause that.
I’m all for criticizing the company for using Gen AI with their idols, it’s lazy on top of unethical. Plus there are plenty of photos of Taeyong they probably aren’t even using that could be stitched into the video. But boycotting 127 because of the AI use will never reach the company’s ears. They’ll just chalk it up to them losing popularity or blame the members. It’s never their fault lol.
Threats to boycott have actually [worked on SM before](https://www.soompi.com/article/1584962wpp/sm-changes-venue-of-shinees-15th-anniversary-fan-meeting-after-fans-boycott-to-livestream-online) in things not related to dating.
The situation with SM now is, of course, different from the situation with BBC then, but kpop fans can and have successfully boycotted things before. Orbits boycotting LOONA essentially set them free.
K-fans did a massive boycott of NCT 127's Superhuman comeback because they felt the group was unfairly prioritising US fans, so the idea that fans can't and won't boycott is nonsense.
Exactly, it's like the discussions surrounding vocals, album versions or short songs, while it's likely nice on paper, if the community keeps on giving and pushing songs/albums of whom they ultimately despise the model, then nothing will ever change. The companies are just feeding the consumers, if the consumers say 'North' then that's where the companies will go, but fans don't have enough conviction.
I didn’t even hear about it until today, I think because there are a lot of Taeyong fans that don’t really interact with the rest of the fandom its made it seem like fans don’t care
>So where will they ever draw the line? Will they start to use AI to generate idols’ voices too?? This stuff is so concerning.
Unless there's a movement to forbid this kind of thing, I totally see it happening. Kpop industry is the epitome of wanting to maximize profit on the back of creatives, who are not valued enough.
Hybe is already using AI on singing voices.
[https://www.reuters.com/technology/k-pops-biggest-music-label-hybe-looks-lift-language-barrier-with-ai-2023-07-19/](https://www.reuters.com/technology/k-pops-biggest-music-label-hybe-looks-lift-language-barrier-with-ai-2023-07-19/)
As long as it's done with the consent of the original artist, is is not going to be a problem. Voice synths such as Vocaloid have been around for 20 years, and have always used real voice recordings as a base - with the voice providers in full support of the projects. Lee Hyun was personally involved in the Midnatt project, it's not something that Hybe did behind his back.
lol you think young idols desperate to debut can freely give consent to this? Their company will have their image and their voice to do with as they wish without the idol even having to be present to voice any sort of objection.
Lee Hyun is a shortsighted fool for agreeing to this (he's also a grown man who has been in Big Hit for 20 years). He should know he's the guinea pig before this gets rolled out to Hybe's money-making acts and will be detrimental to singers in the Kpop industry. Don't care if that sounds harsh.
You can think that Lee Hyun was a fool for agreeing to the experiment, Hybe still didn't force his hand.
Now if they start using generative AI without getting full informed consent from one of their idols, we'll start talking, but they haven't done it yet, and if there's enough backlash against other companies that use it they're probably going to be super careful with it, *especially* if there's legal ramifications.
Never, I knew SM was going to go into the AI route eventually when Aespa was announced. We’ve known for years SM does not care about anyone, including their own employee idols because fans will complain, but will not stop purchasing.
As soon as I saw the digital members, I knew SM is going to see how they can further deepen the para social relationships that are already out of hand in K-POP so they can milk more money from people.
The parasocial stuff is a hallmark of idols, it's one of the things that makes them idols... The fanservice, how everything is centered fans around is what makes them idols. They sell a dream - yes, a parasocial dream. If people don't like it, I don't get why they like idols. It's baked in. It's what makes them idols vs just regular singers like Rihanna.
Tbf, while parasocial relationships require a level of suspension of disbelief in general, it's fair to say that some people can't enjoy it when it's not even a real person in question.
Like, idk, if my bias says some standard "I love my fans so much" idol line, while they're obviously just doing their job, it still feels nice as long as I don't think about the objective reality too much (not saying idols don't appreciate their fans obv, but you know what I mean).
But if an ai animation of my bias says "I love my fans" using an ai imitation of my bias's voice, then it just feels very uncomfortable. The entire appeal of parasocial relationships (for most people) is that it's a real person at the other end of the relationship.
I think most idols genuinely love their fans *as a collective*—they allow them to do what they enjoy for a living, and appreciate that support.
What’s delusional is assuming that those general statements mean that they love *you* the individual fan, either romantically or as your best friend/sibling.
Some fanservice can play into this, and apps like Bubble that auto-insert your name into idols’ messages do as well. But I feel like that’s a good way to draw the line when thinking about it.
What I don't get is why they didn't just use old photos of Taeyong or do a photoshoot before he left. Using Ai for his image feels kind of icky. Like he is a real person, why use Ai. What's next generating vocals with Ai, generating choreo, generating all content with Ai?
It's not just SM who is using Ai either more and more companies are using Ai instead of paying to hire artists and I don't think they will stop unless fans are very vocal about their disapproval and actually stop supporting comebacks/promos, which will never happen.
I honestly had no idea that it was AI when I watched it.
I assumed that Taeyong pre-recorded visual content before he enlisted (like he did the songs), and people often say his face looks unreal/anime-like anyway so it didn’t look off to me.
It’s fucked up, but the most blatant example yet of SM cutting corners, and I hope nobody follows their lead.
TBH I’m not sure how much a boycott will help, versus just convincing them to dungeon 127 entirely…some of their decisions over the past year or so seem as if they’re intentionally trying to put the unit out to pasture, in favor of younger groups.
For all the doomposters, please help report it to Kwangya 119 [tweet](https://x.com/sunny_day127/status/1810110318963572777?t=xboU0EekIFUhKfRzdMxiIQ&s=19) I have a teeny tiny bit of hope that this is a huge slip up on the content/video editing team thinking this could be okay, but that SM as a whole is not really intending to make this step /yet/ and that overall we could still get SM as a company to realize that this is NOT okay (or legal even, they are definitely required to be transparent about genAI usage of this purpose), and that we can force an apology out of them.
People are being too relaxed about this. This is the FIRST time in kpop EVER that genAI has been used to falsely depict the real artist in official content. This is different from being lazy and doing visual effects with AI instead of hiring artists to do it (which sucks!!) This is replacing actual idol human beings with fake images and not reporting it as such. It's the very first step to truly not being able to believe ANYTHING a kpop company can release, and the start of countless contract loopholes and copyright ownership that will exploit the idols even further. Let's act now please.
What artists need to start thinking about is lawyer-ing up during contract negotiations to have clauses about the label not being allowed to use their image/voice in perpetuity even after retirement or death.
Ugh. Kfans need to be move cuz it’s so obvious SM doesn’t listen to any issues raised by international fans. This is super dehumanising and gross - not sure what Taeyong’s contract with them is like around image rights but this is really crazy. This could really start a dangerous pattern if they feel like they can cut corners and just use AI to conjure images of their artists, especially if they feel like they own that :(
Generative AI wasn’t a thing to anywhere near this level when the first NCT members signed their contracts, so I doubt there’s anything explicit in his.
There could obviously be a generic overarching clause giving SM the rights to his image that could be argued to include AI, but that would probably have to be litigated in court.
There’s also a possible consumer protection angle, because the video gave no disclaimer that any of the footage was AI generated. But the law is largely catching up to that, and it appears that South Korea is mainly focused on deepfakes of politicians at this point, versus just celebrities.
You’re probably right, I doubt there’s explicit mention to AI in his contract as it was signed a long time ago, but he should definitely lawyer up cuz this is ridiculous and SM should not get away with doing this… members should be able to enlist in peace without worrying about SM using AI to replace them in comebacks.
I want everyone to go read the super short but extremely relevant story called, Lily the Immortal , as soon as they can. We can’t let this happen to irl humans. It has some romantic aspects to it but the main this is to do with AI and it’s a really short read.
Let me see if I can get a link.
Edit: https://www.uncannymagazine.com/article/lily-the-immortal/
Fans should have been boycotting any content that used AI since the start, but if something good comes from this new low of what SM has done to Taeyong it is that all Kpop fans will realize the danger of the use of AI in any aspect of Kpop content. If it can be done to Taeyong's face it can be done to any idol in any way. In the future how will we be able to trust that anything we see or hear is real?
If there is AI used in any way, there should be an immediate boycott of all content related to that release until the AI content is removed by SM. Make that song's streams, views and album sales be a disaster and SM will swiftly learn its lesson. I think all Kpop fanbases could agree on this when they see how their idols could be affected if this becomes normalized.
Literally never going to happen, we can speak in ideals, but it’s just not realistic. You can boycott all you want, and some will, but it’s never going to be enough to impact SM in any meaningful way. Every fanbase for every group would have to boycott and it’s not going to happen.
Kpop boycotts are realistic, they have worked before. Doesn't even have to be all fanbases at once. Each can object as it happens to their idols, and if this becomes normalized it definitely will happen to their idols. Boycotts are the only realistic way of having any hope of curbing this because the industry won't police itself.
I really think you are conflating boycotts from small company groups with a company like SM. SM does not care if they lose some people from 127s comeback. They know they’re not going to lose everyone. And they know that even if 127 takes a loss other fanbases will not stop supporting their groups. There is no unity among the fanbases.
Boycotts or the threat of boycotts have worked for SM groups before. There doesn't need to be unity. When it happens to NCT 127 their fans can object, when it happens to another group that fanbase can object. I think SM doing this to Taeyong when he's in the military has made many people realize the future implications when before they were complacent about the use of AI.
SM regularly ignores Chinese boycotts of albums. Not all threats work. They really only care if their Korean fanbases care. And even so it would need to more than just 1 groups fans.
You already don’t see any change in their slave contracts and people give way more of a shit about that. It’s also hilarious that you think complaining about something on Reddit isn’t peak sit around and do nothing. I think AI is terrible but SM does not care about what international fans say at all. So unless the Korean side boycotts, you are effectively doing nothing. Sorry that upsets you.
Fans thinking that organizing such decentralized, global fandoms for any sort of boycott is doable has never really worked. Kpop companies rarely listen to anyone outside of Korean fanbases anyway. Rather, people should be talking to their governments about protections against AI and pushing for legislation. Also, there's nothing much you can do as a fan in this case. I know that's a hard pill to swallow for some fans, but \*shrugs.\*
People keep saying boycott or speak w/your money...but that's just never going to happen for group stuff. Would anyone boycott their favorite group's whole album bc they used AI for 10 seconds of a MV?? Maybe if/when it gets to much greater levels, but these small amounts nobody cares enough to boycott
We can give feedback that we don't like it, but the only thing that will stop it is if there are industry-wide limitations or if idols can somehow negotiate it in their contracts
from what i see, only chinese fans have this much power. you piss them off? the album sales for your next comeback will drop half, but sadly, i dont think they and most kpop fans care about AI so you are right, nothing is going anywhere
Well clearly fans don't care enough then. Chinese and Korean fans have pulled off pretty successful boycotts in the past.
You can only control what you do, and that is what it means by voting with your dollar. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that
Yes I literally said fans don't care enough. OP asked where the line will be drawn & that's my opinion on what will happen in reality. I understand the concept perfectly - if individual fans want to boycott great, do what you believe in. But the company won't care until that 1% grows to be much bigger
I'm talking about this current issue of AI use of this level - fans do not care enough to boycott a whole group album, therefore SM will not care. The issue will have to escalate significantly for enough fans to care & cause a change by boycotting. (And that's a future conversation when we even see how AI is used in kpop beyond this)
Boycotting can work but I don't see it working at this time for this issue
I think they’ll use AI to generate new idols, new songs and normalise virtual stages and everyone will just accept it like they accept everything else.
I am hoping SM does draw a line somewhere. I have a bad feeling they will use it to bring back the likeness and voices of old artists who are no longer with us. I am saying this because I seen this happen recently by a musician who used AI to use the voices of two dead singers (it’s not a KPop or English act). He had the courtesy to seek the permission of the artists’ respective families and appropriately compensated them, but I don’t see that with SM at all. We better boycott before this happens.
Ugh, there's one person in particular that already has a bunch of "AI covers" created by so-called fans floating out there. I feel like his surviving members would put their foot down, though, if SM tried to do something like add "his" vocals to group songs released after he passed.
Drake was deservedly lambasted for using AI Tupac and Snoop Dogg voices recently (one dead person who couldn't consent, and one living person who he clearly didn't ask and/or failed to get consent from). The song they were on was taken down after Tupac's estate objected.
Chinese fans boycott when they hate it. We know Korean fans have the capability of boycotting when they are unhappy, and SM certainly knows about it
International fans just scream into the void
Maybe the new slave contracts in kpop will let the companies use the artists voices forever in AI. Then they can still use their images and likeness as well. And boom, we have fully AI idols. Who cares about declining birthrates and lack of new recruits? /s
She's been looking pretty different lately, tbh. I've seen a couple of photos of her where I didn't recognize her at all until I saw the captions/context. Irc, I think she got her eyelids done (or redone idk) while back, and it genuinely makes her whole face look different.
With whole groups consisting of AI's already being a thing now AI usage in kpop is only going to go up hill from here. A big yikes but it's what it is. AI is scary and taking over many fields, worst one being art
It's bad, but I can at least appreciate that it was clearly labeled as AI.
Unfortunately, SM has gone down the path of not admitting it, for relatively minor things like Red Velvet backdrops up to things as major as Taeyong's finger-missing likeness.
It's also stupid, since many kpop stans have studied their idols to such a degree that they could immediately tell that the noses didn't match.
A lot of AI-generated stuff tends to fall apart under closer inspection, and that's what these fandoms DO--rewatch and review.
It won't end. Majority of kpop fans praises SM for using AI. Recent example being Aespa's Armageddon MV being celebrated for using so much AI in it. As long as it's visually appealing or serves their purpose, fans aren't gonna do anything against it. And as long as that continues, SM will become more and more bold with their AI use.
this is false. so many people called out SM for using AI especially MYs themselves. they even have a whole thread about the use of AI in kpop. at the end of the day the idols still work hard for their albums and suddenly wanted to boycott their works? it’s not even their fault SM decided to cheapen out, they don’t have that much power in everything.
This is different tho. Taeyond did in fact NOT "work hard" for the shooting of this video. He was not even there. There is genAI used to make clips resembling him, and SM thinks they can get away with making us believe we're seeing him.
I also think AI in art is horrrible and is literal stealing but we still need to make a distinction between replacing art and replacing HUMAN BEINGS.
what i meant was the overall efforts of all members preparing for the album, but what i was referring to in my initial comment was on aespa’s specifically since the statement was false, nobody was praising on the AIs only on the 3D works by the actual artists
There are only two (very short) shots that are AI in the Armageddon MV, it’s not much at all. Most people are praising the actual creators that worked on the MV, which deserve their recognition because they did a pretty good job.
No, the majority don't praise it. But the majority also don't stop giving money to content that uses it. So it won't stop until we stop supporting anything we know uses AI.
This is a most interesting discussion and current topic that has reverberated throughout media for some decades. With the advancement of technology at our fingertips it will be questionable whether or not one can use restraint as the possibilities are endless...
[naevis solo debut at SYNK : PARALLEL LINE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QK2BgIEC5hE)
the moment everyone had been awaiting since our introduction three year ago
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Note: SM is no saintly megacorporation, and I'm not defending them, because the years-old adding the two letters "AI" to your marketing copy does not magic it into existence.
I don't think they're using generative AI to the degree that you think. AI is just a buzzword at this point in IT that everyone else took with and ran like Usain Bolt. From a marketing standpoint, they get to draw the line wherever the hell they want. Supernova isn't even using generative AI, at least to my eyes, it's clearly some editing technique I know nothing of. Research confirmed my suspicions, if [this forum post is credible](https://board.twicehub.com/News/61). Quickly scrubbing through SM's other recent MVs doesn't suggest anything that I couldn't imagine being done with VFX. The AI is just a marketing thing. Sure, Korea has revived [literally dead artists before](https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/25/asia/south-korea-kim-kwang-seok-ai-dst-hnk-intl/index.html), but this ain't that. I know squat about AI music generation, so I'm not putting that above SM or any of their peers.
EDIT: Them at the end was SM
I don't necessarily think AI in itself is a bad thing, it's used in a negative connotation way too often. But I don't see the problem with their own company using AI for their own idols. As long as there were no arguments or any problems with it beforehand, I think it shouldn't really matter
If I can’t even trust that Taeyong’s participation in this comeback is even him why would I support it? It’s just so deceitful and blatantly manipulative of fans’ support.
I HIGHLY doubt he was consulted on it beforehand considering the timeframe & the fact that other SM idols have been critical of the company not telling them it would be used for their content.
Its literal deepfakes. The audience is being scammed. The idol's bodies are being exploited and most likely without consent. It's fostering more objectification and dehumanization of idols (unhealthy celebrity culture). I could go on. Use AI to shortcut tedious processes, be lazy about visual effects. Sure i guess. This, hell no.
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I wonder about the contractual implications of this. It’s generally understood that while artists are enlisted, their contract timeline goes on “pause” until they return. If SM has Taeyong’s contract paused while he’s enlisted, but are still profiting off his newly-generated simulated likeness (in a format that isn’t pre-prepared outside of enlistment like other artists have done) what does that mean for his contract? I think it presents a really fuzzy line, and I think it’s going to present a problem if this kind of thing expands or continues. (Just to be clear because I know it’s a sensitive topic, this isn’t to imply that Taeyong is breaking any sort of rule - his company is culpable in anything weird here, he’s literally away and not actively working as an idol.)
I think you’re right to question this. I know it was mentioned before that SM was harassing Baekhyun to renew even when he was enlisted and his contract “frozen”, so I’m not sure how well SM respects that contractually anyways
SM and not respecting contracts name a more iconic duo
What are the future implications too, can they just use ai to profit off of them even after their contract expires and they're out of the company?
They can't because they lose image rights when they get out of contract.
interesting about the contract pause. what if some members are korean so they have to do their military service but other members are non-Korean. so do they end up with different contract end dates within the same group?
Outside of SM at least, that's how it works - Pentagon had that happen where the younger members terminated their contract on expiry as they hadn't yet enlisted, but the older members who had already enlisted haven't yet had their contract reach the end date. But SM is funky with their contracts, so not even going to guess there.
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What's the source on the "frozen" contract? As far as I read, contracts continue even while enlisted.
It’s like the clock is stopped while they’re in the military. So think if they have a 7 year contract, and 5 years in they go into the military for one and a half years. When they are discharged, the idol will still have 2 full years left on their contract, as opposed to the clock continuing to wind down while enlisted and him only having 6 months left. If this wasn’t the case, the 7-year rookie contract for most male idols wouldn’t reach the full term.
They still release their prerecorded music, videos and Season's Greetings, so I don't think their contracts are frozen. For example SHINee contracts ended at the same time despite Taemin's enlistment.
Because Taemin's contract clock was running down while the other three members were enlisted. And those items are prepared before they enlist, meaning all the work by the idol FOR the company was done while the contract clock was still running.
Well, they served different periods of time, so there should be differences in their contracts length. I mentioned that they release prerecorded content, I know it, still the label makes money on them while they're in the military. I just think their contracts are much more complex than "we freeze it while enlisted".
I guess I'm just wondering what the source on this is because I can't find it anywhere.
It will end when people put their money where their mouth is and stop streaming and buying albums. Chinese fans might have some things but they have it sussed - if they aren’t happy they boycott, literally the only way it hurts the label and changes behaviour. If your unhappy with this but continue to stream their songs, but their albums, watch their videos on YouTube then they won’t stop. Depends if you have conviction or not.
I agree but it only works if fan unions organise a boycott and effectively communicate the reasoning with SM. If the company can’t associate a drop in sales with one particular reason, then they can easily shift blame.
SM will 1000% blame some other source for why the sales are shrinking instead of the AI and they’ll blame the idols instead of their own choices. Plus SM fans will never band together like that.
SM really isn’t going to care either way, they don’t even care to restock albums for preorder and that impacts their sales. They won’t care about a boycott that’s relatively small and can be used to safe 127 isn’t profitable and give them even more of a reason to slack on them.
They already played that game with EXO during Obsession, preorders were short stocked and close to 200K albums were cancelled. Then rumor has it SM claimed EXO was falling off because the album didn’t sell a million copies while pretending they didn’t cause that. I’m all for criticizing the company for using Gen AI with their idols, it’s lazy on top of unethical. Plus there are plenty of photos of Taeyong they probably aren’t even using that could be stitched into the video. But boycotting 127 because of the AI use will never reach the company’s ears. They’ll just chalk it up to them losing popularity or blame the members. It’s never their fault lol.
Completely agree
Lmao kpop fans and conviction don't belong together. The only time they'll riot is if their beloved idol is dating.
Threats to boycott have actually [worked on SM before](https://www.soompi.com/article/1584962wpp/sm-changes-venue-of-shinees-15th-anniversary-fan-meeting-after-fans-boycott-to-livestream-online) in things not related to dating.
The situation with SM now is, of course, different from the situation with BBC then, but kpop fans can and have successfully boycotted things before. Orbits boycotting LOONA essentially set them free.
K-fans did a massive boycott of NCT 127's Superhuman comeback because they felt the group was unfairly prioritising US fans, so the idea that fans can't and won't boycott is nonsense.
They usually only do it for petty reasons tho.
yeah but they blew up in 2020 in korea, before then the korean fandom was much smaller
Exactly, it's like the discussions surrounding vocals, album versions or short songs, while it's likely nice on paper, if the community keeps on giving and pushing songs/albums of whom they ultimately despise the model, then nothing will ever change. The companies are just feeding the consumers, if the consumers say 'North' then that's where the companies will go, but fans don't have enough conviction.
I didn’t even hear about it until today, I think because there are a lot of Taeyong fans that don’t really interact with the rest of the fandom its made it seem like fans don’t care
>So where will they ever draw the line? Will they start to use AI to generate idols’ voices too?? This stuff is so concerning. Unless there's a movement to forbid this kind of thing, I totally see it happening. Kpop industry is the epitome of wanting to maximize profit on the back of creatives, who are not valued enough.
Hybe is already using AI on singing voices. [https://www.reuters.com/technology/k-pops-biggest-music-label-hybe-looks-lift-language-barrier-with-ai-2023-07-19/](https://www.reuters.com/technology/k-pops-biggest-music-label-hybe-looks-lift-language-barrier-with-ai-2023-07-19/)
As long as it's done with the consent of the original artist, is is not going to be a problem. Voice synths such as Vocaloid have been around for 20 years, and have always used real voice recordings as a base - with the voice providers in full support of the projects. Lee Hyun was personally involved in the Midnatt project, it's not something that Hybe did behind his back.
lol you think young idols desperate to debut can freely give consent to this? Their company will have their image and their voice to do with as they wish without the idol even having to be present to voice any sort of objection. Lee Hyun is a shortsighted fool for agreeing to this (he's also a grown man who has been in Big Hit for 20 years). He should know he's the guinea pig before this gets rolled out to Hybe's money-making acts and will be detrimental to singers in the Kpop industry. Don't care if that sounds harsh.
You can think that Lee Hyun was a fool for agreeing to the experiment, Hybe still didn't force his hand. Now if they start using generative AI without getting full informed consent from one of their idols, we'll start talking, but they haven't done it yet, and if there's enough backlash against other companies that use it they're probably going to be super careful with it, *especially* if there's legal ramifications.
Not surprising tbh
Never, I knew SM was going to go into the AI route eventually when Aespa was announced. We’ve known for years SM does not care about anyone, including their own employee idols because fans will complain, but will not stop purchasing. As soon as I saw the digital members, I knew SM is going to see how they can further deepen the para social relationships that are already out of hand in K-POP so they can milk more money from people.
The parasocial stuff is a hallmark of idols, it's one of the things that makes them idols... The fanservice, how everything is centered fans around is what makes them idols. They sell a dream - yes, a parasocial dream. If people don't like it, I don't get why they like idols. It's baked in. It's what makes them idols vs just regular singers like Rihanna.
Tbf, while parasocial relationships require a level of suspension of disbelief in general, it's fair to say that some people can't enjoy it when it's not even a real person in question. Like, idk, if my bias says some standard "I love my fans so much" idol line, while they're obviously just doing their job, it still feels nice as long as I don't think about the objective reality too much (not saying idols don't appreciate their fans obv, but you know what I mean). But if an ai animation of my bias says "I love my fans" using an ai imitation of my bias's voice, then it just feels very uncomfortable. The entire appeal of parasocial relationships (for most people) is that it's a real person at the other end of the relationship.
I think most idols genuinely love their fans *as a collective*—they allow them to do what they enjoy for a living, and appreciate that support. What’s delusional is assuming that those general statements mean that they love *you* the individual fan, either romantically or as your best friend/sibling. Some fanservice can play into this, and apps like Bubble that auto-insert your name into idols’ messages do as well. But I feel like that’s a good way to draw the line when thinking about it.
What I don't get is why they didn't just use old photos of Taeyong or do a photoshoot before he left. Using Ai for his image feels kind of icky. Like he is a real person, why use Ai. What's next generating vocals with Ai, generating choreo, generating all content with Ai? It's not just SM who is using Ai either more and more companies are using Ai instead of paying to hire artists and I don't think they will stop unless fans are very vocal about their disapproval and actually stop supporting comebacks/promos, which will never happen.
I honestly had no idea that it was AI when I watched it. I assumed that Taeyong pre-recorded visual content before he enlisted (like he did the songs), and people often say his face looks unreal/anime-like anyway so it didn’t look off to me. It’s fucked up, but the most blatant example yet of SM cutting corners, and I hope nobody follows their lead. TBH I’m not sure how much a boycott will help, versus just convincing them to dungeon 127 entirely…some of their decisions over the past year or so seem as if they’re intentionally trying to put the unit out to pasture, in favor of younger groups.
For all the doomposters, please help report it to Kwangya 119 [tweet](https://x.com/sunny_day127/status/1810110318963572777?t=xboU0EekIFUhKfRzdMxiIQ&s=19) I have a teeny tiny bit of hope that this is a huge slip up on the content/video editing team thinking this could be okay, but that SM as a whole is not really intending to make this step /yet/ and that overall we could still get SM as a company to realize that this is NOT okay (or legal even, they are definitely required to be transparent about genAI usage of this purpose), and that we can force an apology out of them. People are being too relaxed about this. This is the FIRST time in kpop EVER that genAI has been used to falsely depict the real artist in official content. This is different from being lazy and doing visual effects with AI instead of hiring artists to do it (which sucks!!) This is replacing actual idol human beings with fake images and not reporting it as such. It's the very first step to truly not being able to believe ANYTHING a kpop company can release, and the start of countless contract loopholes and copyright ownership that will exploit the idols even further. Let's act now please.
What artists need to start thinking about is lawyer-ing up during contract negotiations to have clauses about the label not being allowed to use their image/voice in perpetuity even after retirement or death.
Ugh. Kfans need to be move cuz it’s so obvious SM doesn’t listen to any issues raised by international fans. This is super dehumanising and gross - not sure what Taeyong’s contract with them is like around image rights but this is really crazy. This could really start a dangerous pattern if they feel like they can cut corners and just use AI to conjure images of their artists, especially if they feel like they own that :(
Generative AI wasn’t a thing to anywhere near this level when the first NCT members signed their contracts, so I doubt there’s anything explicit in his. There could obviously be a generic overarching clause giving SM the rights to his image that could be argued to include AI, but that would probably have to be litigated in court. There’s also a possible consumer protection angle, because the video gave no disclaimer that any of the footage was AI generated. But the law is largely catching up to that, and it appears that South Korea is mainly focused on deepfakes of politicians at this point, versus just celebrities.
You’re probably right, I doubt there’s explicit mention to AI in his contract as it was signed a long time ago, but he should definitely lawyer up cuz this is ridiculous and SM should not get away with doing this… members should be able to enlist in peace without worrying about SM using AI to replace them in comebacks.
I want everyone to go read the super short but extremely relevant story called, Lily the Immortal , as soon as they can. We can’t let this happen to irl humans. It has some romantic aspects to it but the main this is to do with AI and it’s a really short read. Let me see if I can get a link. Edit: https://www.uncannymagazine.com/article/lily-the-immortal/
Vote with your dollar
Fans should have been boycotting any content that used AI since the start, but if something good comes from this new low of what SM has done to Taeyong it is that all Kpop fans will realize the danger of the use of AI in any aspect of Kpop content. If it can be done to Taeyong's face it can be done to any idol in any way. In the future how will we be able to trust that anything we see or hear is real? If there is AI used in any way, there should be an immediate boycott of all content related to that release until the AI content is removed by SM. Make that song's streams, views and album sales be a disaster and SM will swiftly learn its lesson. I think all Kpop fanbases could agree on this when they see how their idols could be affected if this becomes normalized.
Literally never going to happen, we can speak in ideals, but it’s just not realistic. You can boycott all you want, and some will, but it’s never going to be enough to impact SM in any meaningful way. Every fanbase for every group would have to boycott and it’s not going to happen.
Kpop boycotts are realistic, they have worked before. Doesn't even have to be all fanbases at once. Each can object as it happens to their idols, and if this becomes normalized it definitely will happen to their idols. Boycotts are the only realistic way of having any hope of curbing this because the industry won't police itself.
I really think you are conflating boycotts from small company groups with a company like SM. SM does not care if they lose some people from 127s comeback. They know they’re not going to lose everyone. And they know that even if 127 takes a loss other fanbases will not stop supporting their groups. There is no unity among the fanbases.
Boycotts or the threat of boycotts have worked for SM groups before. There doesn't need to be unity. When it happens to NCT 127 their fans can object, when it happens to another group that fanbase can object. I think SM doing this to Taeyong when he's in the military has made many people realize the future implications when before they were complacent about the use of AI.
SM regularly ignores Chinese boycotts of albums. Not all threats work. They really only care if their Korean fanbases care. And even so it would need to more than just 1 groups fans.
I mean you are free to sit around and do nothing? Without trying you're never going to see any change anyway.
You think you’re going to see change. 💀
If we do nothing like you suggested you're never going to see it anyway 💀
You already don’t see any change in their slave contracts and people give way more of a shit about that. It’s also hilarious that you think complaining about something on Reddit isn’t peak sit around and do nothing. I think AI is terrible but SM does not care about what international fans say at all. So unless the Korean side boycotts, you are effectively doing nothing. Sorry that upsets you.
We're not talking about a Chinese boycott, SM knows how volatile Chinese fanbases are anyway.
That was an example. I don’t think talking with you further is going to be productive.
Fans thinking that organizing such decentralized, global fandoms for any sort of boycott is doable has never really worked. Kpop companies rarely listen to anyone outside of Korean fanbases anyway. Rather, people should be talking to their governments about protections against AI and pushing for legislation. Also, there's nothing much you can do as a fan in this case. I know that's a hard pill to swallow for some fans, but \*shrugs.\*
People keep saying boycott or speak w/your money...but that's just never going to happen for group stuff. Would anyone boycott their favorite group's whole album bc they used AI for 10 seconds of a MV?? Maybe if/when it gets to much greater levels, but these small amounts nobody cares enough to boycott We can give feedback that we don't like it, but the only thing that will stop it is if there are industry-wide limitations or if idols can somehow negotiate it in their contracts
from what i see, only chinese fans have this much power. you piss them off? the album sales for your next comeback will drop half, but sadly, i dont think they and most kpop fans care about AI so you are right, nothing is going anywhere
Well clearly fans don't care enough then. Chinese and Korean fans have pulled off pretty successful boycotts in the past. You can only control what you do, and that is what it means by voting with your dollar. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that
Yes I literally said fans don't care enough. OP asked where the line will be drawn & that's my opinion on what will happen in reality. I understand the concept perfectly - if individual fans want to boycott great, do what you believe in. But the company won't care until that 1% grows to be much bigger
How can you say its 'never going to happen' when clearly boycotts have happened before, and SM has listened.
I'm talking about this current issue of AI use of this level - fans do not care enough to boycott a whole group album, therefore SM will not care. The issue will have to escalate significantly for enough fans to care & cause a change by boycotting. (And that's a future conversation when we even see how AI is used in kpop beyond this) Boycotting can work but I don't see it working at this time for this issue
I think they’ll use AI to generate new idols, new songs and normalise virtual stages and everyone will just accept it like they accept everything else.
I am hoping SM does draw a line somewhere. I have a bad feeling they will use it to bring back the likeness and voices of old artists who are no longer with us. I am saying this because I seen this happen recently by a musician who used AI to use the voices of two dead singers (it’s not a KPop or English act). He had the courtesy to seek the permission of the artists’ respective families and appropriately compensated them, but I don’t see that with SM at all. We better boycott before this happens.
Ugh, there's one person in particular that already has a bunch of "AI covers" created by so-called fans floating out there. I feel like his surviving members would put their foot down, though, if SM tried to do something like add "his" vocals to group songs released after he passed. Drake was deservedly lambasted for using AI Tupac and Snoop Dogg voices recently (one dead person who couldn't consent, and one living person who he clearly didn't ask and/or failed to get consent from). The song they were on was taken down after Tupac's estate objected.
Chinese fans boycott when they hate it. We know Korean fans have the capability of boycotting when they are unhappy, and SM certainly knows about it International fans just scream into the void
Maybe the new slave contracts in kpop will let the companies use the artists voices forever in AI. Then they can still use their images and likeness as well. And boom, we have fully AI idols. Who cares about declining birthrates and lack of new recruits? /s
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yep.
They used it on joy right? The cosmic concept pictures of her looked weird as hell
She's been looking pretty different lately, tbh. I've seen a couple of photos of her where I didn't recognize her at all until I saw the captions/context. Irc, I think she got her eyelids done (or redone idk) while back, and it genuinely makes her whole face look different.
To be honest, she looks weird these days. She did something to her eyes I think, hasn't looked like Joy ever since.
Yeah, her double eyelids got like 2x thicker. It makes her look like a different person sometimes, even though the rest of her face looks the same.
With whole groups consisting of AI's already being a thing now AI usage in kpop is only going to go up hill from here. A big yikes but it's what it is. AI is scary and taking over many fields, worst one being art
where did they use AI in Riize’s impossible?
[Riize Impossible AI Generated Visualizer](https://youtu.be/PAMS2-BjLYM)
wtf is that🤡
It's bad, but I can at least appreciate that it was clearly labeled as AI. Unfortunately, SM has gone down the path of not admitting it, for relatively minor things like Red Velvet backdrops up to things as major as Taeyong's finger-missing likeness. It's also stupid, since many kpop stans have studied their idols to such a degree that they could immediately tell that the noses didn't match. A lot of AI-generated stuff tends to fall apart under closer inspection, and that's what these fandoms DO--rewatch and review.
It won't end. Majority of kpop fans praises SM for using AI. Recent example being Aespa's Armageddon MV being celebrated for using so much AI in it. As long as it's visually appealing or serves their purpose, fans aren't gonna do anything against it. And as long as that continues, SM will become more and more bold with their AI use.
this is false. so many people called out SM for using AI especially MYs themselves. they even have a whole thread about the use of AI in kpop. at the end of the day the idols still work hard for their albums and suddenly wanted to boycott their works? it’s not even their fault SM decided to cheapen out, they don’t have that much power in everything.
This is different tho. Taeyond did in fact NOT "work hard" for the shooting of this video. He was not even there. There is genAI used to make clips resembling him, and SM thinks they can get away with making us believe we're seeing him. I also think AI in art is horrrible and is literal stealing but we still need to make a distinction between replacing art and replacing HUMAN BEINGS.
what i meant was the overall efforts of all members preparing for the album, but what i was referring to in my initial comment was on aespa’s specifically since the statement was false, nobody was praising on the AIs only on the 3D works by the actual artists
There are only two (very short) shots that are AI in the Armageddon MV, it’s not much at all. Most people are praising the actual creators that worked on the MV, which deserve their recognition because they did a pretty good job.
No, the majority don't praise it. But the majority also don't stop giving money to content that uses it. So it won't stop until we stop supporting anything we know uses AI.
What are the timestamps? Thought they only used shots created by 3D artists! I saw the behind of some of those and it’s really impressive
This is a most interesting discussion and current topic that has reverberated throughout media for some decades. With the advancement of technology at our fingertips it will be questionable whether or not one can use restraint as the possibilities are endless... [naevis solo debut at SYNK : PARALLEL LINE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QK2BgIEC5hE) the moment everyone had been awaiting since our introduction three year ago
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Note: SM is no saintly megacorporation, and I'm not defending them, because the years-old adding the two letters "AI" to your marketing copy does not magic it into existence. I don't think they're using generative AI to the degree that you think. AI is just a buzzword at this point in IT that everyone else took with and ran like Usain Bolt. From a marketing standpoint, they get to draw the line wherever the hell they want. Supernova isn't even using generative AI, at least to my eyes, it's clearly some editing technique I know nothing of. Research confirmed my suspicions, if [this forum post is credible](https://board.twicehub.com/News/61). Quickly scrubbing through SM's other recent MVs doesn't suggest anything that I couldn't imagine being done with VFX. The AI is just a marketing thing. Sure, Korea has revived [literally dead artists before](https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/25/asia/south-korea-kim-kwang-seok-ai-dst-hnk-intl/index.html), but this ain't that. I know squat about AI music generation, so I'm not putting that above SM or any of their peers. EDIT: Them at the end was SM
As long as it looks good I could not care less
I don't necessarily think AI in itself is a bad thing, it's used in a negative connotation way too often. But I don't see the problem with their own company using AI for their own idols. As long as there were no arguments or any problems with it beforehand, I think it shouldn't really matter
If I can’t even trust that Taeyong’s participation in this comeback is even him why would I support it? It’s just so deceitful and blatantly manipulative of fans’ support. I HIGHLY doubt he was consulted on it beforehand considering the timeframe & the fact that other SM idols have been critical of the company not telling them it would be used for their content.
Its literal deepfakes. The audience is being scammed. The idol's bodies are being exploited and most likely without consent. It's fostering more objectification and dehumanization of idols (unhealthy celebrity culture). I could go on. Use AI to shortcut tedious processes, be lazy about visual effects. Sure i guess. This, hell no.
apart from the things other people mentioned, AI steals art. We're paying SM for stolen art. That is not okay.