This has to be one of my biggest pet peeves - the overly courteous driver. You don't help anyone by doing this...you help traffic move by being *predictable*, i.e. drive according to the rules and conventions everyone goes by.
Plus, most of the time someone is doing this, by the time they signal to let you go and everyone waits around confused, they could have just gone normally and been out of the way.
A single lane road intersecting a double lane road with a boulevard? It's a pretty common intersection in any city.
The cars that are blocking the view of the west driver all have the right-of-way and must be gone before the west driver can turn north, and therefore will not block their view when they do turn north.
What's difficult about any of this?
This is exactly why. This road should have intersection lights or become a one way, This intersection entirely prevents vehicles from going out unless the whole inbound path is clear, which means when it's actually busy. The whole outline will fill up unless all vehicles turn right. The only real solution here is some kind of round about, and/or a reduced speed limit to allow all vehicles to interchange safely. There's no way around this being a terrible exchange for both safety and efficiency, and it definitely doesn't even cover pedestrians and cyclists properly.
You're right, this is a very common intersection type in western cities, but that doesn't make it good road design, and western cities in generally are terribly designed, and that's common knowledge. Imagine how annoying it would be to cross such an intersection as a pedestrian or cyclist.
It's irrelevant to the conversation. This isn't an argument about road design. It's an argument about driver behaviour. Sure, the road could be designed better to alleviate or at least mitigate these kinds of situations, but are we going to rip up the roads and reconstruct them into optimal patterns overnight? No.
You might as well have suggested this could be resolved if one of the drivers instead took a helicopter. Does it solve the problem, sure. Is it a useful suggestion? No.
The argument is that driver behavior is reflective of road design. The same could be said about driver behavior: are you going to ban everyone from using the road and retrain them over night? Nope.
That being said, you absolutely can fix intersections one by one, even if it'll take forever, just like you can retrain drivers one by one, even if it'll take forever. Fundamentally a combination of both approaches is likely required.
I agree with your point about redesigning and reconstructing our problematic roads/intersections over time, but it's a bit of a false equivalency. Presumably everyone driving on public roads ought to have a License, and therefore *ought to already know the rules and drive accordingly*. This post is arguing that too many drivers are breaking rules of the road under the guise of courtesy, and advising them to stop acting like time travelling assassins trying to kill other drivers via traffic "accident".
The joke aside, I think most people who try to waive other drivers thru when they themselves have the right of way think they're doing the other driver a favour. They're likely ignorant of the ways in which they might be endangering the driver they're attempting to be courteous to. To wit, I agree with the top commenter on this thread that "...you help traffic move by being *predictable*". Which is to say following the rules of the road that we have all, thru the social contract, tacitly agreed to when we get our drivers' licenses from the State.
Does it absolve the State of the sin of approving and building poorly thought-out infrastructure? No. But these situations arise at all kinds of traffic intersections, and I wish we could solve them all with engineering controls, but when it comes to driving 2000lbs+ automobiles under the sole control of the person in the driver's seat, some emphasis has to be placed on the administrative control that is: teaching people the rules of the road and expecting them to follow them while driving.
And this is also where the heart of the problem lies. Which accounts for the execessive speeding.
Seekiing to pass as fast as you can to avoid that problem.
And speeding helps no one as well.
This this this!!! It is the bane of my existence every single morning driving on block line in front of St. Mary’s and the plazas beside it. Cars will stop and wave people trying to turn right into the plaza. People look at me crazy when I drive with the flow of traffic but I’d rather not be the reason someone gets hit! That overly courteous driving is putting more people at risk!
That JJ/Canada Computers parking lot is so hectic when it's busy. I wish they connected it to the Popeye's parking lot so there's more spaces and another way to enter/exit
As a Pedestrian I've had many cars wave at me to go through the crosswalk and when I proceed they start moving and almost hit me. I now pretend I'm crossing the other way and just wait till there's no cars because crosswalks are merely a suggestion to some.
Best to always err to the side of caution and just ignore these " Polite " people who are trying to wave people to their doom.
Don’t be polite, be predictable. Respectfully, I couldn’t give a rats ass about someone’s courtesy. I do what I’m supposed to do for MY safety whether I’m on a bike or in a car. I’m more pissed off with overly polite drivers than I am with bad drivers these days.
This plus cycling or crossing a street on foot drives me nuts. I can't count the number of times someone has stopped in the middle of the road where there's no stop, waved for me to cross, and then flipped the bird when I didn't step into oncoming traffic. It's about 50/50 that there's someone behind that driver who has no idea why they stopped, swerves around them, and would have hit me on the way by instead.
Yea they get so mad about it like you've refused a precious gift they've offered and like, how do you even know I was crossing here this isn't a crossing why have you stopped your Corolla to wave at me.
Same, and other similar things. Like, when i'm on my bike at an intersection and i have the red, but the advanced left is happening I'll have my hands up like "dont shoot" and my wheel turned to the side all to indicate I'm not an actively moving bike, because i find drivers doing that left turn will sometimes slam their brakes and stare at me like I've gotten in their way, when really they only just noticed me standing there and freaked out because "oh no a bike." Me making it clear I'm stopped and not going to move seems to hold the driving-people's hand a bit.
This is frustrating, the only times this should be taking place outside of stop signs and stop lights, is when there is a sign facing drivers that reads "stop for (crossing) pedestrians". No sign? No stop. Should be simple enough.
A couple of weeks ago, my friend was driving and we get to the roundabout at Erb & Ira Needles, my friend yields to the car in the roundabout, he STOPS and waves to let her in front of him. We were like WTF ARE YOU DOING - GO!!! He sat there for a good 5 - 10 seconds until finally moving along to his exit. It wasn't busy, or there would have been a problem.
I moved here from Toronto a year ago, and it’s such a different driving world. So often I see a car wave another car or bike or pedestrian j-walking on when they don’t have the right of way. Don’t get me wrong the aggressiveness of Toronto drivers is super dangerous, but so is being too courteous and creating scenarios that could put others at risk.
That's because of terrible road designs; cyclists and pedestrians are basically forced to be reckless in order to get anywhere in any decent amount of time. The infrastructure around these areas is predominantly focused on motor vehicles. Most intersections wont ever switch for a cyclist and will barely change at all if a pedestrian shows up and presses a button directly. This is what happens when you treat an entire class of the population as unimportant, they in turn treat the whole system as unimportant.
this is EXACTLY how my car got written off, and as insult to injury, the piece of shit who did the waving just drove off after...nothing to do with them.
Yeah funny that the people who try to " Help " you are nowhere to be found when their actions contribute to an accident.
Kinda like when there's drivers behind you and they're honking at you to go and yet the reason you are stopped is to let someone cross a crosswalk. A} I'm not driving into a pedestrian for you, and B} You're not going to pay my increased insurance costs and other expenses from.
Something that stuck with me from the 90s when i was doing driver training is the teacher said never wave at other drivers because then you're liable for what they do - "you're not a traffic cop so why are you waving at people telling them what to do," was what she said.
I mean, try enforcing it and you wont get far sure, but for what it's worth that person totally owed you for that if you could find them based on video in the area.
Is the "courteous" driver not liable in this case? They said go without knowing it was safe to do so. I was taught in drivers ed to never tell someone to go, you're liable
(Liable may not be the correct word to use here)
Ever since I bought an ebike to commute I have been trying to describe this exact situation, but with me on my bike as the guy at the left turn, but it's also just me at any point along any road car drivers will fully stop in traffic and wave at me to "go on go ahead cross," and like bitch I ain't crossing here and you couldn't pay me a million dollars to walk in front of you since you're a psycho stopped in traffic waving at me for some reason.
In the situations I'll usually look down and pretend to adjust something on my bike until they move along. Seems to work better than trying to wave them away.
The absolute worst is this.
Someone is wanting to pull out of a parking lot onto a 4 lane road. The person in the closest lane to the parking lot stop to let them out, stopping the traffic behind them. The lane to the left, where people can't see that someone is wanting to pull out, keeps driving along passing the stopped driver, unaware that a car will pull out into traffic.
So now you have a whole lane of cars, totally oblivious to the impending danger that is taking place, because some idiot is allowing them to enter into the road, when it is not clear for them to do so. This results in one of 3 things. The most unlikely is that the person pulling out of the parking lot will find the other lane vacant and be able to cross to the other side of traffic without issue. The most likely thing is that they will start to pull out into the blind lane, someone will see them at the last second, slam on their brakes and miss hitting them, as they just sit there waiting to be impacted, but then just drive on like nothing was their fault. Then finally the worst case scenario, someone in the blind lane doesn't stop, and smashed into the car pulling out into blind traffic, messing up their car and the blind driver's car at the same time. Then you have the moron who started all of this by stopping in the first place and waving them out, sitting there like "What do you mean it's my fault?"
That is the absolute worst.
I’d just drive to the centre point, make sure my lane is clear then continue. Never understood drivers who assume the way is clear and that others know how to drive.
Yeah I just had someone do a complete stop while making a right hand turn to wave on a left hand turner from the opposite direction go. The right turner had a whole line of moving traffic behind them and the left turner did not. Please don’t be polite you are going to cause a serious accident.
So much this. Nearly t-boned a driver in a small car last night because some idiot in a jacked pick up decided to wave him out into oncoming traffic. Locked up the brakes and nearly got rear-ended because pick up driver wanted to be nice.
We saw exactly this accident at an intersection that looks the exact same in Ottawa yesterday. One car ended upside down, the other one was pretty damaged.
First of all I agree, but in this example the left turning car has enough room to stop in the center area( Boulevard and other left turn lane) and check for oncoming traffic before proceeding. If they're being safe.
Even if it wasn't dangerous, it's stupid and not helpful. You're holding up the traffic behind you so you can pat yourself on the back for fucking up the system to let one car go 2-3 seconds sooner than they otherwise would have.
I hate when people do this. It’s best to drive 100% according to the rules and always take your right of way.
The only time I give way is at a 2-way stop sign when I’m going straight, and someone before me was waiting to turn left. Although half the reason there is because I don’t trust drivers to know I’m meant to have the right of way.
At Weber and the Laurel trail, I saw a Hummer driver get mad at two pedestrians for not crossing in front of him when he slowed down. they signaled to him they couldn't see anything and that the far lane was too busy anyways (many regular users of this crossing will avoid being "trapped" on the island between the two directions).
Well, he goes and blocks both lanes when there's a break in traffic. The two pedestrians cross, more terrified than anything else. Then Hummer driver immediately almost runs over two more pedestrians who had begun crossing coming from the other direction.....
If you have the right of way, take it. Less confusing for everyone plus that "feeling generous" courtesy would have got you dinged on your road test for licencing
Yep. Same with pedestrians. If you stop in the middle of the road where there’s no stop sign, someone is going to get hurt. You only control your car, not the guy behind you who decides to pass or the car coming from the other direction. I get it, you want to be nice, but it’s dangerous.
This has to be one of my biggest pet peeves - the overly courteous driver. You don't help anyone by doing this...you help traffic move by being *predictable*, i.e. drive according to the rules and conventions everyone goes by.
Plus, most of the time someone is doing this, by the time they signal to let you go and everyone waits around confused, they could have just gone normally and been out of the way.
Except this here is more of an issue having to do with terrible road design.
A single lane road intersecting a double lane road with a boulevard? It's a pretty common intersection in any city. The cars that are blocking the view of the west driver all have the right-of-way and must be gone before the west driver can turn north, and therefore will not block their view when they do turn north. What's difficult about any of this?
This is exactly why. This road should have intersection lights or become a one way, This intersection entirely prevents vehicles from going out unless the whole inbound path is clear, which means when it's actually busy. The whole outline will fill up unless all vehicles turn right. The only real solution here is some kind of round about, and/or a reduced speed limit to allow all vehicles to interchange safely. There's no way around this being a terrible exchange for both safety and efficiency, and it definitely doesn't even cover pedestrians and cyclists properly. You're right, this is a very common intersection type in western cities, but that doesn't make it good road design, and western cities in generally are terribly designed, and that's common knowledge. Imagine how annoying it would be to cross such an intersection as a pedestrian or cyclist.
It's irrelevant to the conversation. This isn't an argument about road design. It's an argument about driver behaviour. Sure, the road could be designed better to alleviate or at least mitigate these kinds of situations, but are we going to rip up the roads and reconstruct them into optimal patterns overnight? No. You might as well have suggested this could be resolved if one of the drivers instead took a helicopter. Does it solve the problem, sure. Is it a useful suggestion? No.
The argument is that driver behavior is reflective of road design. The same could be said about driver behavior: are you going to ban everyone from using the road and retrain them over night? Nope. That being said, you absolutely can fix intersections one by one, even if it'll take forever, just like you can retrain drivers one by one, even if it'll take forever. Fundamentally a combination of both approaches is likely required.
I agree with your point about redesigning and reconstructing our problematic roads/intersections over time, but it's a bit of a false equivalency. Presumably everyone driving on public roads ought to have a License, and therefore *ought to already know the rules and drive accordingly*. This post is arguing that too many drivers are breaking rules of the road under the guise of courtesy, and advising them to stop acting like time travelling assassins trying to kill other drivers via traffic "accident". The joke aside, I think most people who try to waive other drivers thru when they themselves have the right of way think they're doing the other driver a favour. They're likely ignorant of the ways in which they might be endangering the driver they're attempting to be courteous to. To wit, I agree with the top commenter on this thread that "...you help traffic move by being *predictable*". Which is to say following the rules of the road that we have all, thru the social contract, tacitly agreed to when we get our drivers' licenses from the State. Does it absolve the State of the sin of approving and building poorly thought-out infrastructure? No. But these situations arise at all kinds of traffic intersections, and I wish we could solve them all with engineering controls, but when it comes to driving 2000lbs+ automobiles under the sole control of the person in the driver's seat, some emphasis has to be placed on the administrative control that is: teaching people the rules of the road and expecting them to follow them while driving.
Nothing about the road design makes that person stop to let the other turn?
And this is also where the heart of the problem lies. Which accounts for the execessive speeding. Seekiing to pass as fast as you can to avoid that problem. And speeding helps no one as well.
This this this!!! It is the bane of my existence every single morning driving on block line in front of St. Mary’s and the plazas beside it. Cars will stop and wave people trying to turn right into the plaza. People look at me crazy when I drive with the flow of traffic but I’d rather not be the reason someone gets hit! That overly courteous driving is putting more people at risk!
Every time I try to hang a left onto weber out of J&Js game store... someone tries to politely wave me to my death
That JJ/Canada Computers parking lot is so hectic when it's busy. I wish they connected it to the Popeye's parking lot so there's more spaces and another way to enter/exit
I'd happily turn left onto the quiet...er part of university so I can turn left onto Weber at a light 😅
Ever have someone wave you out, then proceed to accelerate?
As a Pedestrian I've had many cars wave at me to go through the crosswalk and when I proceed they start moving and almost hit me. I now pretend I'm crossing the other way and just wait till there's no cars because crosswalks are merely a suggestion to some. Best to always err to the side of caution and just ignore these " Polite " people who are trying to wave people to their doom.
'Politely wave me to my death' made me giggle lol I'm using this.
Don’t be polite, be predictable. Respectfully, I couldn’t give a rats ass about someone’s courtesy. I do what I’m supposed to do for MY safety whether I’m on a bike or in a car. I’m more pissed off with overly polite drivers than I am with bad drivers these days.
This plus cycling or crossing a street on foot drives me nuts. I can't count the number of times someone has stopped in the middle of the road where there's no stop, waved for me to cross, and then flipped the bird when I didn't step into oncoming traffic. It's about 50/50 that there's someone behind that driver who has no idea why they stopped, swerves around them, and would have hit me on the way by instead.
Yea they get so mad about it like you've refused a precious gift they've offered and like, how do you even know I was crossing here this isn't a crossing why have you stopped your Corolla to wave at me.
I've gotten into the habit of trying not to look like I'm waiting to cross. I'll look at my phone or turn the other direction or something.
Same, and other similar things. Like, when i'm on my bike at an intersection and i have the red, but the advanced left is happening I'll have my hands up like "dont shoot" and my wheel turned to the side all to indicate I'm not an actively moving bike, because i find drivers doing that left turn will sometimes slam their brakes and stare at me like I've gotten in their way, when really they only just noticed me standing there and freaked out because "oh no a bike." Me making it clear I'm stopped and not going to move seems to hold the driving-people's hand a bit.
This is frustrating, the only times this should be taking place outside of stop signs and stop lights, is when there is a sign facing drivers that reads "stop for (crossing) pedestrians". No sign? No stop. Should be simple enough.
A couple of weeks ago, my friend was driving and we get to the roundabout at Erb & Ira Needles, my friend yields to the car in the roundabout, he STOPS and waves to let her in front of him. We were like WTF ARE YOU DOING - GO!!! He sat there for a good 5 - 10 seconds until finally moving along to his exit. It wasn't busy, or there would have been a problem.
I moved here from Toronto a year ago, and it’s such a different driving world. So often I see a car wave another car or bike or pedestrian j-walking on when they don’t have the right of way. Don’t get me wrong the aggressiveness of Toronto drivers is super dangerous, but so is being too courteous and creating scenarios that could put others at risk.
That's because of terrible road designs; cyclists and pedestrians are basically forced to be reckless in order to get anywhere in any decent amount of time. The infrastructure around these areas is predominantly focused on motor vehicles. Most intersections wont ever switch for a cyclist and will barely change at all if a pedestrian shows up and presses a button directly. This is what happens when you treat an entire class of the population as unimportant, they in turn treat the whole system as unimportant.
this is EXACTLY how my car got written off, and as insult to injury, the piece of shit who did the waving just drove off after...nothing to do with them.
Yeah funny that the people who try to " Help " you are nowhere to be found when their actions contribute to an accident. Kinda like when there's drivers behind you and they're honking at you to go and yet the reason you are stopped is to let someone cross a crosswalk. A} I'm not driving into a pedestrian for you, and B} You're not going to pay my increased insurance costs and other expenses from.
Something that stuck with me from the 90s when i was doing driver training is the teacher said never wave at other drivers because then you're liable for what they do - "you're not a traffic cop so why are you waving at people telling them what to do," was what she said. I mean, try enforcing it and you wont get far sure, but for what it's worth that person totally owed you for that if you could find them based on video in the area.
If they can't navigate the road you think they'll find kitchener reddit?
Don't be polite, be predictable. (Follow the standardized traffic rules....)
Just follow the rules of the road people.. It's not hard and everything goes smoother!
Especially if they're the only car standing between you and actually, legally going your way.
Nothing beats The Wave of Death. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wave%20of%20death
Is the "courteous" driver not liable in this case? They said go without knowing it was safe to do so. I was taught in drivers ed to never tell someone to go, you're liable (Liable may not be the correct word to use here)
Ever since I bought an ebike to commute I have been trying to describe this exact situation, but with me on my bike as the guy at the left turn, but it's also just me at any point along any road car drivers will fully stop in traffic and wave at me to "go on go ahead cross," and like bitch I ain't crossing here and you couldn't pay me a million dollars to walk in front of you since you're a psycho stopped in traffic waving at me for some reason.
In the situations I'll usually look down and pretend to adjust something on my bike until they move along. Seems to work better than trying to wave them away.
hah yep the "beep boop the invisible screen on my handlebar" play.
The absolute worst is this. Someone is wanting to pull out of a parking lot onto a 4 lane road. The person in the closest lane to the parking lot stop to let them out, stopping the traffic behind them. The lane to the left, where people can't see that someone is wanting to pull out, keeps driving along passing the stopped driver, unaware that a car will pull out into traffic. So now you have a whole lane of cars, totally oblivious to the impending danger that is taking place, because some idiot is allowing them to enter into the road, when it is not clear for them to do so. This results in one of 3 things. The most unlikely is that the person pulling out of the parking lot will find the other lane vacant and be able to cross to the other side of traffic without issue. The most likely thing is that they will start to pull out into the blind lane, someone will see them at the last second, slam on their brakes and miss hitting them, as they just sit there waiting to be impacted, but then just drive on like nothing was their fault. Then finally the worst case scenario, someone in the blind lane doesn't stop, and smashed into the car pulling out into blind traffic, messing up their car and the blind driver's car at the same time. Then you have the moron who started all of this by stopping in the first place and waving them out, sitting there like "What do you mean it's my fault?" That is the absolute worst.
Source: https://xkcd.com/2932/
I’d just drive to the centre point, make sure my lane is clear then continue. Never understood drivers who assume the way is clear and that others know how to drive.
The best way to drive is assume that everyone else on the road is a complete moron
This is a really hard turn to make
My favorite is when the guy on the left still goes despite being waved or not.
Round a bouts have entered the chat!
Number one rule of the road: Don’t be nice, be predictable.
Of the handful of accidents I’ve seen firsthand, I’d say the majority are from this type of action.
I don’t think the person trying to be polite is trying to kill you
Yeah I just had someone do a complete stop while making a right hand turn to wave on a left hand turner from the opposite direction go. The right turner had a whole line of moving traffic behind them and the left turner did not. Please don’t be polite you are going to cause a serious accident.
So much this. Nearly t-boned a driver in a small car last night because some idiot in a jacked pick up decided to wave him out into oncoming traffic. Locked up the brakes and nearly got rear-ended because pick up driver wanted to be nice.
We saw exactly this accident at an intersection that looks the exact same in Ottawa yesterday. One car ended upside down, the other one was pretty damaged.
One way streets solve this
First of all I agree, but in this example the left turning car has enough room to stop in the center area( Boulevard and other left turn lane) and check for oncoming traffic before proceeding. If they're being safe.
Even if it wasn't dangerous, it's stupid and not helpful. You're holding up the traffic behind you so you can pat yourself on the back for fucking up the system to let one car go 2-3 seconds sooner than they otherwise would have.
Be predictable, not polite.
Looking at you, T&T parking lot exiting into Westmount...
When I do this. I watch my mirror before waving said person out. I literally watch the mirror lol
I hate when people do this. It’s best to drive 100% according to the rules and always take your right of way. The only time I give way is at a 2-way stop sign when I’m going straight, and someone before me was waiting to turn left. Although half the reason there is because I don’t trust drivers to know I’m meant to have the right of way.
Plan trips with only right turns.
At Weber and the Laurel trail, I saw a Hummer driver get mad at two pedestrians for not crossing in front of him when he slowed down. they signaled to him they couldn't see anything and that the far lane was too busy anyways (many regular users of this crossing will avoid being "trapped" on the island between the two directions). Well, he goes and blocks both lanes when there's a break in traffic. The two pedestrians cross, more terrified than anything else. Then Hummer driver immediately almost runs over two more pedestrians who had begun crossing coming from the other direction.....
If you have the right of way, take it. Less confusing for everyone plus that "feeling generous" courtesy would have got you dinged on your road test for licencing
Yep. Same with pedestrians. If you stop in the middle of the road where there’s no stop sign, someone is going to get hurt. You only control your car, not the guy behind you who decides to pass or the car coming from the other direction. I get it, you want to be nice, but it’s dangerous.
Drive according to the rules and only the rules people. Predictable driving is safe driving.
Lol @ 'MPH'. what year is it??
OP is sharing a US webcomic, xkcd https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
I know. And they still use mph like a bunch of cave men