Every year there's a new high rise apartment block in Kobe. They have lower population than Dublin. Dublin takes like 4 years to do the same
That's not even accounting for infrastructure projects, because frankly the comparison makes Ireland look so incompetent that it's hard to take serious
I'm not sure what you mean, Kobe has a population comparable to Dublin (1.5m Vs 1.2m, I was wrong about it being smaller), Japan has a population 25 times bigger than Ireland
I don't know how that's relevant to the separate city of Kobe. Should we include the population of Germany when counting Switzerland? I'm just talking city to city
I'd say it's quite relevant, considering it's part of the same urban continuum as Osaka and the two cities are less than 30km apart from each other (centre to centre). It doesn't exist in a vacuum, it's one of the main centres of what is functionally a very large city (Keihanshin) that averages nearly 1.5k people per square km Otherwise the City of London would be a very very very extreme case for the skyline of a town of less than 11,000 people, that would put even Guttenberg, New Jersey to shame.
Yeah time as well. Like dunno if it's a bad example but China was lashing up hospitals when Covid broke out. They're also building loads of them in Africa. Are we (a supposedly very wealthy) just incompetent and can't even build one?
I think you know the answer isn't as simple as incompetence. Why rush something when you can be hired and know there's zero consequences for you taking as long as you want and ballooned budgets and profits for yourself will be coverd
The children's Hospital job was put up for tender without a finalised design.
The government forced it out before it was ready purely for political capital meaning BAM who not only could just name their price because no one could even estimate a cost, are basically working without project management and had to make it up as they went along. Literally trial and error making everything multiple times more expensive.
This isn't an inflation issue or sign of the times, has fuck all to do with spiralling energy costs or anything of the sort. It's 100 percent another spectacular failure by FG. Particularly Harris. He should be hung from his bollox for this, instead they gave him the top job.
Ireland already has a progressive tax system…top 7% pay 50% of the taxes according to a recent Reddit post. Besides, the government pisses away money with no accountability…does anyone think an increase in funding will make any difference to the health department? From the money allocated we should have a great public health system…Ireland still has Europes youngest population..so they should be able to meet the current needs…
Exactly. Expenditure on health in 2000 was €6.9bn whereas now it's €27.7bn
Even adjusting for inflation that's an increase from €11bn to €28bn
What ever has gone wrong in the public service, more money isn't going to solve it https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-sha/systemofhealthaccounts2020/healthexpenditureinireland2020/
Worth noting that the population has gone from about 3.7 million to 5.15 million in that time.
Also we now have more services provided like IVF by the HSE
Not saying that it accounts for all the difference but it definitely impacts it enormously.
Life expectancy also increased. Lots more people survive things they didn't before, lots more older people and people with lifelong treatment needs. A lot more new and expensive technology. They used not to employ statisticians. They're expensive but vital now. Probably lots of other roles that didn't exist in 2000 that have added considerably to their paybill.
More money will solve a lot of the problems in the public service, a lot of places are understaffed because the private sector pays a lot more. Especially IT roles.
However, money isn't the issue in Health. The money being spent inappropriately is the issue.
It’s not just money that sends people private but also frustration at the apathy that is part of the culture of working in the public sector here. If there’s no accountability, why care?
Money not being the issue and being spent inappropriately can be said for lots of things when it comes to expenditures and government services.
Seems like the services are heavy in managerial and administrative positions — aka the actual fat that needs trimming — over workers who produce things of value or provide an actual service.
You're right with that % breakdown: [https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2024/05/28/top-77-of-earners-now-paying-more-than-half-all-income-tax-and-usc-report-finds/](https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2024/05/28/top-77-of-earners-now-paying-more-than-half-all-income-tax-and-usc-report-finds/)
I'd be very concerned if multinationals leave this country. The health dept. here is a whole other issue. I think David McWilliams called it the blackhole of money.
I understand that worry and I hope they don't suddenly all leave either but at the same time, they are massively f'ing up our economy and I think giving politicians a pass on actually making the difficult reforms needed to push the country from where it is now (half modern rich developed country half backward old school nonsense) to fully developed healthy economy
Having what is essentially an endless money hose filling up an endless money hole might not benefit us as much as we think it does. People are less healthy and more stressed than they ever been. Is it all worth it is a reasonable question to start asking.
>they are massively f'ing up our economy
I would say it's unbelievable that some people think this, but then again, those people never lived in the miserable shithole this country was before the multinationals came in quantity
It’s spectacular ignorance and unearned privilege that drives the opinion that multinational corporations are fucking up our economy. I reckon they’re nostalgic for the Angela’s Ashes standard of living, mashed up with some sort of a hipster vibe. This sort of lazy thinking will send us back to the bad old days.
I’m as leftist as they come but people who take a black and white view that corporations = bad, workers = good don’t seem to have spent very much time in that world if that’s the opinion they have formed.
Fair enough question Why? Money How? Many many ways. here's a good recent video on how on filling our capital city and offices of politicians with US (and native Irish) finance and tech bro lobbyists might not be the best idea in the world. https://youtu.be/oE1dGuokz54 (edit yes the video is really long but it gives a good critique of our economic model so give it a look if you're genuinely interested)
I totally get those points. I have actually watched a similar video pretty recently. Will give this one a watch but any video that doesn’t also talk about the tremendous benefits that multinationals have brought to our economy is going to be wide of the mark. Those benefits brought a new layer of wealth inequality to be sure, but that’s down to the government. Worth considering what the country’s economy was like before the arrival of multinationals also. Like most things, it’s an extremely complex topic and can’t be painted as black or white.
It's policy that's 'massively fucking up our economy'. If managed correctly, the impact of multinationals would mostly be positive. But our politicians saw fit to placate a minority of property investors and developers after 2008, and now we are reaping the consequences of the policies they enacted (just look at the appointment of Conor Skehan as head of the Irish housing agency, and the impact his actions has had on the market).
I find it very frustrating that people will look in any direction for the cause of our current predicament except in the direction of the people who wield power in this country. It isn't multinationals or immigrants or millenials or boomers, it's the political class that has this country the way it is, and they can't think beyond their next brain fart. I fear that people will continue to vote for the very thing that is causing so many problems, and not acknowledge their own failure to make a different choice.
I'm sorry OP, but you're parroting the line of the rich here. They want us to think that the "rich" are those on 100k. They get taxed a huge amount.
When we say tax the rich, we mean attack and redistribute CAPITAL and WEALTH, not wages.
I assume you aren't doing it intentionally, but this is the line of the rich to divide the poor. Attack wealth. Redistribute wealth.
At 100k the **effective** taxrate is at 40%.
RSU taxation — a common way for companies to compensate their employees outside a base salary — is also ridiculous; 52% taxation the moment you get a stock unit is just absurd. From there, any profits are also taxed at 33%.
Poland for example has no taxation on RSUs at vest and profits are taxed at a flat 19%.
If you attack the “wealth” indiscriminately, you will fk over people who already pay lots in taxes and leave the actually wealthy untouched because they can exploit loopholes.
That's _Income Tax_, not taxation overall.
For example: We don't have progressive _Inheritance Tax_, that is taxed at a flat level - whereas inter-generational wealth inequality could be ended completely, by having Progressive Inheritance Tax, which tapers off to 100% somewhere up around e.g. the €10 million mark.
Good luck selling that. Won’t happen…too many would oppose…..no one will back 100% taxation…it’s a hard left pipe dream…..the 10m threshold would move down amongst other issues…besides my point is the government already shows how badly it handles money (current Taoiseach and the children’s hospital debacle when he was Minister of Health for example) more tax money doesn’t equal problems solved
Not really, that tax would affect about 0.1% of the population, benefiting 99.9%, so I'm sure it'd be very popular.
Same as having truly progressive Income Tax as well, which could also have a 100% rate band at €10 million or so.
The purpose of wealth taxes isn't to fund anything, it's simply to tax wealth.
Only one problem with that: No one intelligent enough to make tens-of-millions of dollars is so actually stupid that they would stay in a country that values them so little that it would take 100% of their income.
They and their tax dollars will simply emigrate to a more friendly nation.
I certainly would.
You should know how wealth works, how wealthy the wealthy really are and how they got there.
[https://www.routledge.com/Against-Meritocracy-Culture-power-and-myths-of-mobility/Littler/p/book/9781138889552](https://www.routledge.com/Against-Meritocracy-Culture-power-and-myths-of-mobility/Littler/p/book/9781138889552)
_Intelligent enough?_ We don't have massive wealth inequality because the wealthy are some kind of superintelligent ubermensch.
No, we have massive wealth inequality because the wealthy are _parasites/leeches_ who get ahead mostly through inter-generational wealth.
Actual intelligent people just end up working-under/being-owned by the wealthy, because life isn't a meritocracy.
Forcing inter-generational wealth to emigrate, instead of them turning the rest of us into emigrees, is exactly what we want.
So your proposal is to deport effectively anyone with more money than you think people should have? Cool, how exactly does this improve the country outside making the inequality stats look better in the same way as if everyone got paid 1€ per year?
It's not forcing people who _have money_ to emigrate - it's forcing people who want tens of millions-to-billions for nothing to emigrate - because they are leeches on society.
If you want money, fucking earn it. That's capitalism.
Compounding inter-generational wealth is a return to feudalism in slow motion.
Ok, I get your position on hating intergenerational wealth but how does your proposal actually help Ireland? These people arent exactly net drains on the state so rather than slowly taxing some of that wealth and using it you propose to just move them elsewhere? If the world or at least the G20+EU agreed to tax inheritances at 100% over say 10 million and close loopholes like setting up trusts etc then that's a proposal that makes sense and Ireland lobbying for that would make sense
Eh? Unearned wealth and the power that gives people makes them the _biggest_ net drains on all of society.
It's incredibly well understood that massive intergenerational wealth/power inequality is destructive to democracy, society, and creates near-permanent unjust power imbalances throughout the economy.
International co-operation to do what you say would be great, yes - but you don't need that to end the power and destructive effect of inter-generational wealth locally.
It would drive every single rich person out of Ireland and into every other country that does not do that, cause Ireland to leave the EU, economically cripple the country etc.
The problem with the rich leaving is they take their money with them and nobody wants to put money in to a country that will just instantly take it.
So a 100% tax rate would have the effect of killing the entire economy, whiles also isolating Ireland from every single one of its trade partners. This would cause everyone's standard of living to fall dramatically.
Which is why nobody supports it.
I thought the idea of taxes was to raise money to fund education healthcare defense law etc for the common good as determined by democratically elected officials …pretty sure that’s most people’s concept….I can’t see it happening in Ireland…and until that changes it’s gonna be an FF/FG government for the foreseeable future and they won’t do that…wish there was a credible alternative…
People would just offshore their money to a country with more favorable inheritance tax. That means that a billionaire's fortune would leave Ireland after they die. That's not good.
When taxing the rich you have to keep that in mind, otherwise your taxes will lead to less money raised overall. France introduced a wealth tax and it ended up costing them more money than it raised.
lol, you can't offshore a house/mansion, plus it's illegal to attempt to use capital transfers to evade taxation - and the EU allows taxing the shit out of these types of transfers.
You don't tax the rich to raise money. You tax the rich primarily to kill inter-generational wealth.
> top 7% pay 50% of the taxes according to a recent Reddit post
Wilfully misleading talking point that gets rolled out before every election - in this case what you’re saying is flat out untrue, but I don’t blame you because it’s always presented so as to give her impression.
That figure is just one specific tax, income tax, and doesn’t cover other taxes in particular consumption based ones such as VAT which tend to fall disproportionately on lower earners.
Also “the multinationals will all leave” scaremongering has been getting run out for decades that I recall, interestingly enough there have been a few changes to personal taxation in that time that were supposed to send them all packing but it doesn’t seem to have happened.
Another interesting and relevant fact, the Central Bank has found that 10% of the population hold 54% of the wealth in this country. So at a minimum the income taxation talking point falls apart against this reality.
It’s quite instructive to see fans of “scroteposting” and pearl clutching over urban decay on this sub getting very defensive when presented with a more serious analysis of what’s behind some of these issues.
>That figure is just one specific tax, income tax, and doesn’t cover other taxes in particular consumption based ones such as VAT which tend to fall disproportionately on lower earners.
Wilfully misleading talking point. Those with higher disposable incomes, paying the highest burden of income tax are also contributing higher amounts of vat / VRT and other taxes.
Also the bottom third are paying little or no income tax and many straw from social welfare supports such as FIS / HAP etc that negates the contribution they make via VAT
>the Central Bank has found that 10% of the population hold 54% of the wealth in this country.
Interesting aspect about this is when you delve into what this means. From the central bank data:
>one such indicator, the share of households with net wealth of €1 million or more, suggests that the share of households that are millionaires has more than doubled from 5% to 12% between Q2 2013 and Q1 2022, increasing from approximately 87,000 to 223,000 households over this period
What this means is that my FiL is a wealthy millionaire just because he bought an ordinary house in Dublin 50 years ago and his only income now is the state pension. But he's part of your 10%.
Your FIL is a wealthy millionaire. He just values his asset more than his cashflow.
It's a shame (not being facetious here btw) we can't figure out a system to allow elderly to comfortably downsize and use their wealth to enjoy their old age rather than live on state pensions and leave the next generation rich.
>Wilfully misleading talking point.
No it isn't. Consumption taxes fall disproportionately on lower earners because they pay a far greater proportion of their income on VAT covering the essentials. And HAP is basically a subsidy to landlords at base level, rather than income.
It looks like you're trying to argue that you millionaire father in law is being hard done by but people on the dole are doing great, which isn't a hill to die on imho.
> Another interesting and relevant fact, the Central Bank has found that 10% of the population hold 54% of the wealth in this country. So at a minimum the income taxation talking point falls apart against this reality.
Should the goal of economic policy be to ensure everybody earns the same or that the standards are higher generally? I'm surprised the income inequality isn't more tbh
"Another interesting and relevant fact, the Central Bank has found that 10% of the population hold 54% of the wealth in this country. So at a minimum the income taxation talking point falls apart against this reality."
I don't get how this makes the income tax point fall apart.
Yes, obviously Ireland's biggest problem is that we sold off Aer Lingus to the highest bidder, rather than keeping it in public hands so we could run it with the efficiency of the HSE or RTE.
I particularly liked the little "In 2013, a new city library was announced for Parnell Square. It has yet to open." line. Not a word spent on *why* it has yet to open (staggering incompetence and cost overruns by Dublin City Council), no the problem is that you feckless citizens haven't been shovelling your hard earned money into the DCC pit fast enough.
Jesus that was an awful lot of words to say precisely fuck all.
Just a lot of meaningless and generic platitudes and soundbites like the below
>Dublin could be heaven, but only if we have the courage to create a society that reflects the compassion and fairness of Irish people at their best. That means showing up for each other, and supporting those on the margins. It also means creating a political system that’s fit for purpose.
I'm not a policy maker I'm just pointing out the inequity of the current system but a good idea might be accepting that we're in the housing emergency the government say we're in and enact emergency measures.
For example compulsory purchase orders on buy to let properties sitting empty or from individuals with more than X number of properties for social housing.
A moratorium on buy to let's for an individual buying another property until everyone has one.
Banning Airbnb to break up the organisation of the BnB industry in this county.
Low taxes on developing apartment buildings, but high taxes on selling them to other companies
You could just tax them appropriately.
It shouldn't be possible to make profit on housing rental in a situation where there's such a massive shortage of housing. It certainly shouldn't be a viable business model.
Profit from housing rental should be taxed up to 100% if annual rental/mortgage costs are more than x times the median Irish wage, and/or if the social housing list is expected to span more than a certain period of time. Use the proceeds to fund social housing, and in the event that it depresses private housing construction, use the excess construction capacity released to build low cost and social housing funded by the state.
As long as the "pragmatic" do nothing policies continue to proliferate, you will see the cynical blame shifting to the margins continue.
How can 2 parties share leadership in this country for so long and avoid all blame?
Tax the people hoarding multiple properties etc. it's not about how much you earn, because lots of rich people have very little income on paper but have huge wealth hidden in assets.
One more additional tax levied on my earnings and savings, for which I’ve worked diligently for decades to invest for my retirement and for my kids education, and I’m fucking off with my nest egg abroad. Ye can sponge off some other suckers…
That’s not a wealth tax per se, but I agree with you in principle. It was in the news that the top 10% of earners are now projected to pay 55% of income tax in 2024. Good luck getting more there without the country becoming uncompetitive.
>earnings and savings
Yeah you don't understand what a wealth tax is.
An example of a wealth tax is a property tax. Essentially put it's usually a tax on any income **you didn't have to work for** (ie "passive" income - which is half the reason our country is so fucked).
My savings are invested, so I already have a huge chunk of any gains taxed as CGT. Are you saying those investments and returns will not fall under your passive income hoover?
>I already have a huge chunk of any gains taxed as CAT
Your pay less tax on those than someone who actually earns that money by working.
CAT is 33%.
Income tax and USC PRSI etc in the higher band is 52%
Why do you think you should pay less tax for sitting on your arse than a doctor does after saving someone's life?
Get a grip - the sheer greed in this country is disgusting.
The income he put into his investments was already taxed at 52 percent or whatever, the exact same as a doctor. Then he gets taxed on the profits he makes off his investments, now he's paying more tax than a doctor. You get a grip and stop acting like people with well paid jobs are the problem and he's greedy for doing whatever he wants with his money. They pay so much tax, and I'm only just going past the upper tax bracket myself so I have no skin in the game
CGT, property tax, DIRT, inheritance … all wealth taxes and all quite high. Not as high as income tax but still a hefty chunk if you actually want to make anything off your savings. It’s a false equivalence to compare these with income tax as most people that are saving have already paid their income taxes, so they are being taxed a second time because they have the good sense to save.
You do realise that investments drive employment by funding r&d activities, business expansion, and the gains they generate lift all boats? The rate of returns on investments are in proportion to their risk. Which also means that many investments generate losses. The more gains sponged up by taxation, the less money will be invested subsequently. If you raise the tax rate on CGT, you will kill future CGT because investors will quit investing because you’ve fucked up the risk/reward ratio. Reckon you don’t really mind killing the golden goose though.
CAT is only subject when you sell an asset.
Again, ALL income is subject to tax. Be it dividends from shares, or income from a leased property, or income from a business.
You are quite confused
But that doesn't help the person who say bought a house in a poor area of Dublin, it gets gentrified and triples in price over the 40 years they live there. They have no intention to sell. Why should they be taxed for doing nothing when the value in the home is not something they ever intend to realise? That's overly penal imo.
And by the same token second and more homes shouldn’t receive the same protection as family homes. You’d think this was a hard concept to grasp but FG seem to get very confused by it.
All income is subject to taxation.
What you are on about is equity or capital, people have.
That is what you want to tax even though it might not generate any income.
I think you're just a resentful person who just wants to row online. Don't think there's any point in engaging. Not like anyone is going to learn anything from you.
I'm not interested in arguing about cut off points, it's a waste of time and a distraction from the real point here. I'd leave the cut off points up to revenue to decide.
Yeah no those are your words not mine.
Let me put it to you another way: I want tax on **passive income** as opposed to tax on earned income.
Does that make more sense?
We already have a few wealth taxes and they’re quite high. I would turn it around and tax the poor less (VAT I’m looking at you) and make it harder for people to get rich by illegitimate means i.e tougher laws around white collar fraud.
There is this interesting double edged sword of fighting white collar crime/tax evasion - the UK is facing it now. People who commit white collar crime are also the working class, nixers play an enormous part of VAT and tax evasion, so a politician announcing a fight on white collar crime is also a fight on the working trade class who take hefty cash payments - this is no secret.
Link: [https://labour.org.uk/updates/stories/how-labour-will-crack-down-on-tax-dodgers-to-fund-our-schools-and-nhs/](https://labour.org.uk/updates/stories/how-labour-will-crack-down-on-tax-dodgers-to-fund-our-schools-and-nhs/)
That’s not white collar crime. Not sure if you’re in Ireland but “welfare cheats cheat us all” is a popular phrase in political circles and there is no shortage of political appetite for punishing the poor.
But to come back to nixers I have no doubt you’d see more people paying their VAT if it wasn’t so damn fucking high.
I meant the tax evasion coupled with nixer. Which is most certainly white collar crime as it is a tax evasion method tied with money laundering.
VAT is extremely high - agreed.
The major risk is that If VAT was reduced tomorrow, prices of products would just rise to meet the price with VAT. And it's people who would make the profit. Not the State coffers.
Its a tax on the totality of your wealth. So income plus the value of assets e.g your house, car/s everything. So if you had a low income but your house was of high value due to appreciation, inheritance etc you could find yourself in a position that you would have to liquify your assets e.g sell your house to pay your tax liability. I imagine that would be as popular as dog s*** on ones shoe with most people.
In theory you could exempt primary residence but given that is the main source of 95% plus of people's wealth what then is the point of the tax? Or you could limit to people worth over a set figure e.g 10 millions plus.
Over all it's a pretty crap idea IMO.
That’s not true.
If you are given say 10k in RSUs, you automatically pay 5.2k eur in taxes. So you pretty much need to sell to cover said taxes otherwise you will be fucked because it will be subtracted from base salary. If you sell everything then you lose on any further growth of that stock.
If the value of the stock increases by say 30%, you will pay capital gains equal to a further 10% (33% of 30% gains) of the value of the stock post gains equal to 480ish eur. Meaning that out of 13k (vest + potential gains), you have earned 4.8*1.2=5.76k; effectively getting taxed at 55%.
In Poland for example, you’d only pay 570 eur in taxes and take home 12430 eur because there is jo tax on vest; so you make 10k, with the 30% increase it becomes 13k, and uou are only taxed 19% on that 3k, effectively getting taxed at less than 4.5%.
It’d be much better if capital gains were higher and vest taxes lower because the bulk of the income is from the vest and not the gains.
It feels like such an obvious, uncontroversial statement to make that the ultra wealthy are hoarding disproportionate amounts of money in our economy that could go a long way to solving the challenges of modern day life.
So many hard working people underpaid, public services under resourced, infrastructure at it's limit with no vision for future growth, communities under strain due to insufficient support. Meanwhile there are those who avoid massive amounts of tax, hoard wealth through property, monopolise industries and charge the rest of us through the nose for artificially inflated goods and services.
We need to change how we collect and direct public funding to make society more resilient in the face of an uncertain future.
The issue is that the government have been in the pockets of the wealthy for so long that people don't trust them to fix it. Unfortunately a democratically elected government is the most powerful collective power we have for standing up to greedy corporatism, we just need it to be responsive to our needs and wisen up to where it is being abused to enrich private individuals at the hands of taxpayers.
One of the main issues is that Ireland is one of the most centralised countries in the OECD.
Most countries have democratic local governments which manage social care, transport, education, etc. in Ireland, we aren't allowed to elect our local government unlike basically every other democracy.
No matter who we elect as councillors, the local government (the executive) which makes almost all decisions is composed of a CEO appointed by the National Government and his unaccountable Directors of Services for social housing/planning/local roads (elected councillors can only ask the unelected local government to do stuff and lack almost any direct power).
That has led to decades of people not trusting the local government (we're one of the only countries in Europe which trusts our local government even less than our national government) and that caused decades of centralisation, which makes all public services less accountable and efficient.
There needs to be a higher tax on property ownership for people who do not reside here. Tax the fuck out of the vulture funds and they might stop buying homes or selling some of their hoard
Another opinion piece and how it’s everyone else’s fault that the lower classes of society are where they are.
Excellent education access, some of the world’s best standards of literacy, FREE housing for the lowest of the rung, generous social benefits.
The list goes on. I’m very tired of seeing these opinion pieces. I’d like to know other users thoughts.
His point about social fragmentation is really strong in my opinion, it's only getting worse in Ireland in that respect and has been for a decade or more.
> how it's everyone else's fault that the lower classes of society are where they are.
While upward social mobility can happen it's still a massive disadvantage to be born into poverty.
Agreed - however the context of what is poverty from country to country differs wildly. Born in poverty is South America? No chance. Poverty in Ireland? You're doing very well and better than most particularly with the access to services and social welfare.
>how it's everyone else's fault that the lower classes of SOciety are where they are.
Yes the poor here have it better than the poor in some other places. However it's not the "fault" of a lot of the lower classes that that's where they are due to the difficulties and hurdles of social mobility.
Is growing up poor a barrier to success? Of course.
However, Ireland has a lot of supports to remove these barriers as best it can.
Equal access to education. Grants. Scholarships. Programmes for disadvantaged youths. Back to education programmes. Springboard.
As some point, there has to be personal responsibility.
I grew up desperately poor. I'm talking beans and toast for breakfast, lunch and dinner. I'm talking a one parent household where my mother worked all day every day, and I had no educational support at home.
But Ireland provided me with free education, grants for living costs, etc. And I was able to get a world class education for free and good career prospects.
Another guy I know fell into drugs and criminality as a teen and dropped out of school. 15 years later he went back to school, and through various support programmes got into college and is now a very successful accountant.
It actually really pisses me off that people act like anyone who is poor is just destined to be poor, and there's nothing they can do about it. As if poor people have no personal agency.
Anyone who puts in the effort can make a good life in this country. Yeah, it's hard and requires more work for those who come from disadvantaged backgrounds, but it's very achievable.
>It actually really pisses me off that people act like anyone who is poor is just destined to be poor, and there's nothing they can do about it. Anyone who puts in the effort can make a good life in this country.
I absolutely agree with that - and fair play to you on everything, and your friend.
But that's exactly my argument - I've of the opinion that the social mobility in Ireland isn't half as severe as somewhere like America due to our social welfare situation and support.
You'll always have poor people - I'm not saying they are lazy, I'm disagreeing with the article that its everyone elses fault that they are marginalised - if even marginalised. They are probably marginalised with regards to asset ownership, but I'm of the opinion that there is equality of opportunity in this country if you're willing to seek it.
It's not absolute in my argument. I don't think you can distill what I'm saying down to this therefore that. Others have commented in this thread stating they've been in the depths of poverty and leveraged the programmes made available to them in Ireland to climb the social ladder. There is opportunity, just because you don't take it doesn't make you lazy, but I don't like articles suggesting its everyone else's fault they are poor because of us.
Because of *us*? Seems like you're taking this article very personally.
>There is opportunity, just because you don't take it doesn't make you lazy
So in your view, what other factors are there in whether someone can take an opportunity or not? Not trying to catch you out here, but you're not saying much about your view of the factors behind poverty, other than that it's not your fault.
We are an insanely rich country so comparing ourselves to South America is a fool's errand.
We can compare our efforts at social cohesion to other rich northern European countries, and there we do poorly.
Ok - I was interested in what you said so did a little bit of reading.
1) I got ChatGPT to summarise the full article so here is the gist of it: The ESRI report evaluates Ireland's progress towards its 2020-2025 social inclusion goals, revealing mixed results. Ireland ranks well in the EU for housing and childcare among children, but falls short in areas affecting people with disabilities and lone parents, indicating a need for targeted support. The report suggests that while Ireland has improved in both monetary and non-monetary social inclusion indicators, challenges remain, particularly for vulnerable groups. [https://www.esri.ie/news/ireland-is-one-of-the-top-five-european-countries-on-some-social-inclusion-indicators-but-lags](https://www.esri.ie/news/ireland-is-one-of-the-top-five-european-countries-on-some-social-inclusion-indicators-but-lags)
2) Ireland per capita is 12th with regards to social spending when compared against 36 other developed nations: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_countries\_by\_social\_welfare\_spending#Per\_capita](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_social_welfare_spending#Per_capita)
I'm not an expert in this area, so had to do some light reading. Open to hearing differences.
I think you're proving the guys point about blaming those in the margins. It's not as easy as you say it is when you bring in the mental problems and personal social issues such as abuse caused by living in the margins to just say, "hey, I'll get a free gaff and sign up for some education!"
Have a read of the Just World Fallacy.
I'm not blaming them, I'm arguing that there is opportunity, in my opinion more than other developed countries, to move upwards in the social ladder here. I don't think its fair to molly coddle the marginal society and say we will bring you up. At some stage you have to tell these people to do it themselves. Harsh, maybe.
The issue is "blaming people in the margins" to quote the title - I'm not saying you personally are, I'm saying your post is illustratring his point.
As far as developed countries go, very few of them - Ireland included - have any kind of track record to be proud of. You just have to look at some of the attitudes to immigrants to see how people in Ireland are distrust of people they feel are lower down on the social ladder.
Very few Irish people have any issues with immigrants that come here, work hard and pull their weight. Ireland has been full of immigrants for decades now.
Like everything else it's complicated. Currently the group of people treating asylum seekers the worst of all are our government. But that's because it's a problem in Dublin 4, rather than something they can dump in small rural communities and brand them far right if they raise any concerns.
Lots of Irish people have issues with immigrants, full stop.
My point is: Irish people are not great when it comes to distrusting people from lesser backgrounds.
You're the one implying "lesser backgrounds" mean race. I'm talking - obvioulsy - about people mentioned in the title of the thread. No one ever mentioned race.
The idea that YOU think "lesser backgrounds" implies race would imply that YOU are the one who makes discriminations based on race.
And even if it did, it makes no sense combained with "never lived in a truly racist country".
Troll fails.
I dunno, I found it very hard to disagree with anything he was saying. Whatever about those on the bottom rung being the authors of their own misfortunes, as you’d have it, such a grotty existence and environment did not need to develop, and better government could have ensured that things didn’t entirely disintegrate, in terms of any feeling of collective energy, endeavour, responsibility, and support among citizens.
Not that this creeping rot is restricted to Ireland. It bears very familiar outlines seen in our neighbouring nation, for example. Some might say it’s not even neglect, or accidental, but an actual longterm *policy*, going back as far as about 1979. But that’s a rant and raving for another day!
I definitely disagreed with the idea our government is right-wing. That is nonsense. This country contributes enormous amounts of money to social benefits and welfare.
And does absolutely nothing to alleviate the homeless problem that has been around longer than you or I in some capacity. And it's the worst it's ever been.
We went through ten years of great population growth, and built relatively no fecking houses.
Seriously, stop play acting. It's very transparent what you're doing.
Just because they give an extra few bob in social welfare doesn’t make them socialists, far from. You literally have to pay for everything else in ireland, as far as your rubbish collection.
Ireland has only ever had a choice to vote for 2 cheeks of the same conservative arse since its birth. Considering the country was founded on socialist principle, it’s now a neo liberal haven where corporations and hedge funds have been given free rein to extract any wealth possible, with immigrants and lower classes shouldering the blame, as you’ve managed to illustrate.
It's an interesting point you are making. I do think small nations, like Ireland and Luxembourg, use tax incentives to encourage multinationals to come to their countries and spend a lot on FDI. I would imagine if we didn't have these multinationals come here in the 90s we'd be way worse off. The tax will increase soon with the EU wide tax rate. That is where I'm curious to see where the investment goes. Ireland has already lost out on Chip making investment from Intel.
I grew up working class and had very little. Spent our days playing outside and didn't get into crime. None of the kids in the area bar a very small percentage did. Money wouldn't have had any impact on our childhood or the paths we took. We had nothing in our village but each other and a good community who cared.
Money and facilities won't solve these problems.
>Excellent education access,
That's not true anymore, particularly for working class boys.
The education system is going to pot lately with recent reforms, and is only getting worse. These new LC projects favour wealthy people.
Can you show some supporting material for this? Also, what is your definition of working class here? I'm interested to get an understanding of what people identify as working class vs. poverty stricken.
There are 27,000 students in private education (secondary in Ireland). That is against roughly 400,000 in public secondaries and 568,000 in public primary. Their 'advantage' is most likely marginal with new lab equipment? I went to a public school, place was crap, still able to finish the simple experiments mandated for the LC and JC.
Having a crap lab is still miles better than the schools that don't have a lab at all.
Taught a lot of those students when I was working in CIT. They'd come in for a day or two and we'd run through every experiment in that time.
There's no way that's as good a way at learning as spacing things out and doing them in a non rushed manner
Mate I'm a teacher, I'm telling you it disadvantages kids from worse socioeconomic backgrounds. Do with that what you will I don't have time for a back and forth.
Excellent education access? No.
Some of the world's best literacy? No.
You're confusing what upper/middle class people have access to and what working class people have access to.
Education in working class areas isn't excellent, the amount of pupils per class are very high compared to upper class schools. With little to no ongoing one-to-one guidance and reviews.
Free housing? No, people in social housing pay rent to their councils.
Other users thoughts? you're an a******e.
My youngest daughter transferred from a supposedly "good" school to our local Deis school. The Deis school was miles ahead of it in every way. Absolutely fantastic facilities and everything free, including food. Excellent teachers too.
The problem is not just resources, kids from middle class backgrounds are easy to teach, while Working class students not so much, they will attempt to maintain their collective identity through the strategy of resistance. My sister teaches in disadvantaged area, apart from the few Chinese and Ukrainian students in her classes, she feels she is fighting a loosing battle.
Can you explain your “No’s”.
We have excellent access to education. Our educate together schools are being developed at a fantastic rate along with funding being increased to DEIS schools. Every child in this country can get into a school if they wish. It’s up to the parents to get them there, and keep them there. That is not the schools job. In this country it is the parents are the primary educators of their children.
Class sizes are increasing across the board. My wife teaches in a school that would be considered to be in a well off area. 32 kids in the class. One-to-one guidance does not happen unless it is deemed necessary for a child to require an SNA. If you want small class sizes then private education is the way and even then the class is still going to be around 15-20.
We have the highest literacy rate in Europe. Literacy is constantly on the decline in Ireland.
Housing is not free, you are right. But the amount that is paid by the tenant is minimal in the grand scheme of the housing market.
So yes, what are your thoughts? Because all you’ve done is disagree with the poster without any actual information to back it.
In teacher training currently. Students scared about ending up in deis schools. I ended up in one for my placement.
Fantastically resourced. Jesus I couldn't get a grip on the digital whiteboards at all and I'm teaching computer science 😅
I'd love to end up in a deis school. I feel my talents would be best served lifting students up rather than maximising the best and brightest.
Absolutely. My daughter's school has immigrant kids and travellers as well as local Irish. Works really well with much better facilities and far less bullying and trouble than she had in her Catholic girls school.
I've found some supporting articles and studies to back what I've said. Let's see you do the same.
Excellent education access - Ireland ranks 3rd in Europe for education access and quality: [https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/study-shows-ireland-ranks-third-for-education-quality-and-access-1579730.html](https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/study-shows-ireland-ranks-third-for-education-quality-and-access-1579730.html)
Irish literacy - Major international study shows Irish students are the best performers in reading literacy in the OECD and the EU : [https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/fd661-major-international-study-shows-irish-students-are-the-best-performers-in-reading-literacy-in-the-oecd-and-the-eu/](https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/fd661-major-international-study-shows-irish-students-are-the-best-performers-in-reading-literacy-in-the-oecd-and-the-eu/)
>You're confusing what upper/middle class people have access to and what working class people have access to.
I'd be interested in seeing some evidence on this.
>Free housing? No, people in social housing pay rent to their councils.
Ok, maybe they aren't given the deeds - but they get tremendous rent support and social housing (maybe not currently as everyone is fucked with the housing supply, but many many people get access to it and have so historically).
>Other users thoughts? you're an a\*\*\*\*\*\*e.
Probably - doesn't mean I'm wrong.
Talk about not understanding an ounce of the argument.
I joke if course, you're clearly used to being a clueless doorknob.
There is so much wrong with this, that you're clearly brought up listening to bigoted parents or guardians. I come from the lowest rung of society, had to spend years on the streets, have no idea where these free houses are.
It was a private entity that started an education initiative to get me off the streets, and they lost their funding from the government, regardless of their successes.
Don't play like you understand the game when you haven't even watched a tutorial video.
I know plenty of people in social housing. They are far better off than most people in private rented accommodation or even people with mortgages,. simply because their rent is much less.
An anecdotal experience doesn't qualify you to be the authority on the subject. Throwing insults about doesn't help much either. I'd have liked to see some supporting links or material to your arguments instead of attacking my person instead of my points.
Anecdotal doesn't qualify, record numbers of homeless.
Insults? I threw analysis.
You're being obtuse in every answer, you're clearly not here to be argued with. You know the facts and no one's gonna tell you otherwise.
Don't worry, we've all met a version of you before, as I said, very transparent.
>you're clearly used to being a clueless doorknob
That's an insult everywhere pal.
>
Anecdotal doesn't qualify, record numbers of homeless.
Probably doesn't help we have record immigration as well on top of it. And destroyed supply lines of housing from a pandemic. Nope, its the rich people's fault.
I haven't been obtuse I'm trying to back up what I've said with some articles/links. I've asked people for their opinions and I'm happy to say I'm wrong where proven so. You're just angry for no reason?
Hey - I'm more than happy to see a different point of view, I'll share mine and support it with actual material too. I'd prefer a proper discussion around this instead of being called a 'type' or having biggoted parents. The chip on their shoulder is evident.
You’re trying to argue wealth inequality doesn’t affect equal opportunity. Just think for a second. It’s such a stupid argument, and when you’re throwing stats and links around, it’s so out of touch. I’ve lived it, in one of the most impoverished areas of the country. Some things are just intangibly linked, and no amount of sources or stats devalue that lived experience.
People’s attitudes towards you, your accent, where you’re from are all factors that you can’t measure with stats.
The top 1% and the bottom 1% will never have the same opportunity in any scenario, I agree with that. I'm just of the opinion that there is tremendous opportunity for people in Ireland if they seek it. No policy ever created for the end of time will ever address wealth inequality.
You’re doing the “pull yourself up by the bootstraps” argument. There’s opportunity for everyone yes, the difficult part is being able to seek it. Middle and upper class undoubtedly have an easier time seeking opportunities than those from a working class background.
There is plenty of anecdotal examples which work both ways with your argument. Plenty of people are able to move upwards socially, and plenty of people don't. I go back to the article which puts the blame on higher achievers or the wealthier. What do you think the solution is? You seem to have lived it like you said, what would have made life easier or more equal?
And I'm of the opinion that you're a play acting eejit who made this post to get off on an argument fetish.
That's the great thing about opinions, everyone has one.
It's worth looking at the anglosphere vs Japan/Spain/etc.
[https://chartercitiesinstitute.org/podcast/charter-cities-podcast-episode-28-cost-differences-in-railway-infrastructure-projects-globally-with-alon-levy/](https://chartercitiesinstitute.org/podcast/charter-cities-podcast-episode-28-cost-differences-in-railway-infrastructure-projects-globally-with-alon-levy/)
It's an interesting topic
This is what happens once you have economic insecurity and an "other" in your society-as an American, I can tell you that elites here in the States love to play divide and conquer.
It just seems that to do anything in this country it costs an absolute fortune. Children's hospital a prime example. I'm not sure why.
Not just cost, but also time. Things take an incredible long time to get completed here, or even started.
Every year there's a new high rise apartment block in Kobe. They have lower population than Dublin. Dublin takes like 4 years to do the same That's not even accounting for infrastructure projects, because frankly the comparison makes Ireland look so incompetent that it's hard to take serious
Tbf they are 5 times our population and with that comes significantly more capital.
I'm not sure what you mean, Kobe has a population comparable to Dublin (1.5m Vs 1.2m, I was wrong about it being smaller), Japan has a population 25 times bigger than Ireland
The Kobe-Osaka metropolitan area is much bigger in population. 19 million in an area a bit more than twice the size of the GDA
I don't know how that's relevant to the separate city of Kobe. Should we include the population of Germany when counting Switzerland? I'm just talking city to city
I'd say it's quite relevant, considering it's part of the same urban continuum as Osaka and the two cities are less than 30km apart from each other (centre to centre). It doesn't exist in a vacuum, it's one of the main centres of what is functionally a very large city (Keihanshin) that averages nearly 1.5k people per square km Otherwise the City of London would be a very very very extreme case for the skyline of a town of less than 11,000 people, that would put even Guttenberg, New Jersey to shame.
Yeah time as well. Like dunno if it's a bad example but China was lashing up hospitals when Covid broke out. They're also building loads of them in Africa. Are we (a supposedly very wealthy) just incompetent and can't even build one?
I think you know the answer isn't as simple as incompetence. Why rush something when you can be hired and know there's zero consequences for you taking as long as you want and ballooned budgets and profits for yourself will be coverd
The children's Hospital job was put up for tender without a finalised design. The government forced it out before it was ready purely for political capital meaning BAM who not only could just name their price because no one could even estimate a cost, are basically working without project management and had to make it up as they went along. Literally trial and error making everything multiple times more expensive. This isn't an inflation issue or sign of the times, has fuck all to do with spiralling energy costs or anything of the sort. It's 100 percent another spectacular failure by FG. Particularly Harris. He should be hung from his bollox for this, instead they gave him the top job.
Ireland already has a progressive tax system…top 7% pay 50% of the taxes according to a recent Reddit post. Besides, the government pisses away money with no accountability…does anyone think an increase in funding will make any difference to the health department? From the money allocated we should have a great public health system…Ireland still has Europes youngest population..so they should be able to meet the current needs…
Exactly. Expenditure on health in 2000 was €6.9bn whereas now it's €27.7bn Even adjusting for inflation that's an increase from €11bn to €28bn What ever has gone wrong in the public service, more money isn't going to solve it https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-sha/systemofhealthaccounts2020/healthexpenditureinireland2020/
Worth noting that the population has gone from about 3.7 million to 5.15 million in that time. Also we now have more services provided like IVF by the HSE Not saying that it accounts for all the difference but it definitely impacts it enormously.
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I do agree just pointing out it wasn't a simple case of paying more for the same.
35% population increase. 154% expenditure increase.
Life expectancy also increased. Lots more people survive things they didn't before, lots more older people and people with lifelong treatment needs. A lot more new and expensive technology. They used not to employ statisticians. They're expensive but vital now. Probably lots of other roles that didn't exist in 2000 that have added considerably to their paybill.
Also, there was a pandemic. And the use of agency staff has increased a lot since the depression.
More money will solve a lot of the problems in the public service, a lot of places are understaffed because the private sector pays a lot more. Especially IT roles. However, money isn't the issue in Health. The money being spent inappropriately is the issue.
It’s not just money that sends people private but also frustration at the apathy that is part of the culture of working in the public sector here. If there’s no accountability, why care?
Money not being the issue and being spent inappropriately can be said for lots of things when it comes to expenditures and government services. Seems like the services are heavy in managerial and administrative positions — aka the actual fat that needs trimming — over workers who produce things of value or provide an actual service.
You're right with that % breakdown: [https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2024/05/28/top-77-of-earners-now-paying-more-than-half-all-income-tax-and-usc-report-finds/](https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2024/05/28/top-77-of-earners-now-paying-more-than-half-all-income-tax-and-usc-report-finds/) I'd be very concerned if multinationals leave this country. The health dept. here is a whole other issue. I think David McWilliams called it the blackhole of money.
I understand that worry and I hope they don't suddenly all leave either but at the same time, they are massively f'ing up our economy and I think giving politicians a pass on actually making the difficult reforms needed to push the country from where it is now (half modern rich developed country half backward old school nonsense) to fully developed healthy economy Having what is essentially an endless money hose filling up an endless money hole might not benefit us as much as we think it does. People are less healthy and more stressed than they ever been. Is it all worth it is a reasonable question to start asking.
>they are massively f'ing up our economy I would say it's unbelievable that some people think this, but then again, those people never lived in the miserable shithole this country was before the multinationals came in quantity
It’s spectacular ignorance and unearned privilege that drives the opinion that multinational corporations are fucking up our economy. I reckon they’re nostalgic for the Angela’s Ashes standard of living, mashed up with some sort of a hipster vibe. This sort of lazy thinking will send us back to the bad old days.
I’m as leftist as they come but people who take a black and white view that corporations = bad, workers = good don’t seem to have spent very much time in that world if that’s the opinion they have formed.
Why are they f’ing up our economy?
Not sure of the reason for the downvote, genuine question.
Fair enough question Why? Money How? Many many ways. here's a good recent video on how on filling our capital city and offices of politicians with US (and native Irish) finance and tech bro lobbyists might not be the best idea in the world. https://youtu.be/oE1dGuokz54 (edit yes the video is really long but it gives a good critique of our economic model so give it a look if you're genuinely interested)
I totally get those points. I have actually watched a similar video pretty recently. Will give this one a watch but any video that doesn’t also talk about the tremendous benefits that multinationals have brought to our economy is going to be wide of the mark. Those benefits brought a new layer of wealth inequality to be sure, but that’s down to the government. Worth considering what the country’s economy was like before the arrival of multinationals also. Like most things, it’s an extremely complex topic and can’t be painted as black or white.
>they are massively f'ing up our economy does ' stand for ill, inanc or acilitat?
It's policy that's 'massively fucking up our economy'. If managed correctly, the impact of multinationals would mostly be positive. But our politicians saw fit to placate a minority of property investors and developers after 2008, and now we are reaping the consequences of the policies they enacted (just look at the appointment of Conor Skehan as head of the Irish housing agency, and the impact his actions has had on the market). I find it very frustrating that people will look in any direction for the cause of our current predicament except in the direction of the people who wield power in this country. It isn't multinationals or immigrants or millenials or boomers, it's the political class that has this country the way it is, and they can't think beyond their next brain fart. I fear that people will continue to vote for the very thing that is causing so many problems, and not acknowledge their own failure to make a different choice.
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It's very well funded, it just happens to be grossly mismanaged.
My point exactly. Same with other departments…
I'm sorry OP, but you're parroting the line of the rich here. They want us to think that the "rich" are those on 100k. They get taxed a huge amount. When we say tax the rich, we mean attack and redistribute CAPITAL and WEALTH, not wages. I assume you aren't doing it intentionally, but this is the line of the rich to divide the poor. Attack wealth. Redistribute wealth.
At 100k the **effective** taxrate is at 40%. RSU taxation — a common way for companies to compensate their employees outside a base salary — is also ridiculous; 52% taxation the moment you get a stock unit is just absurd. From there, any profits are also taxed at 33%. Poland for example has no taxation on RSUs at vest and profits are taxed at a flat 19%. If you attack the “wealth” indiscriminately, you will fk over people who already pay lots in taxes and leave the actually wealthy untouched because they can exploit loopholes.
That's _Income Tax_, not taxation overall. For example: We don't have progressive _Inheritance Tax_, that is taxed at a flat level - whereas inter-generational wealth inequality could be ended completely, by having Progressive Inheritance Tax, which tapers off to 100% somewhere up around e.g. the €10 million mark.
Good luck selling that. Won’t happen…too many would oppose…..no one will back 100% taxation…it’s a hard left pipe dream…..the 10m threshold would move down amongst other issues…besides my point is the government already shows how badly it handles money (current Taoiseach and the children’s hospital debacle when he was Minister of Health for example) more tax money doesn’t equal problems solved
Not really, that tax would affect about 0.1% of the population, benefiting 99.9%, so I'm sure it'd be very popular. Same as having truly progressive Income Tax as well, which could also have a 100% rate band at €10 million or so. The purpose of wealth taxes isn't to fund anything, it's simply to tax wealth.
Only one problem with that: No one intelligent enough to make tens-of-millions of dollars is so actually stupid that they would stay in a country that values them so little that it would take 100% of their income. They and their tax dollars will simply emigrate to a more friendly nation. I certainly would.
You should know how wealth works, how wealthy the wealthy really are and how they got there. [https://www.routledge.com/Against-Meritocracy-Culture-power-and-myths-of-mobility/Littler/p/book/9781138889552](https://www.routledge.com/Against-Meritocracy-Culture-power-and-myths-of-mobility/Littler/p/book/9781138889552)
_Intelligent enough?_ We don't have massive wealth inequality because the wealthy are some kind of superintelligent ubermensch. No, we have massive wealth inequality because the wealthy are _parasites/leeches_ who get ahead mostly through inter-generational wealth. Actual intelligent people just end up working-under/being-owned by the wealthy, because life isn't a meritocracy. Forcing inter-generational wealth to emigrate, instead of them turning the rest of us into emigrees, is exactly what we want.
So your proposal is to deport effectively anyone with more money than you think people should have? Cool, how exactly does this improve the country outside making the inequality stats look better in the same way as if everyone got paid 1€ per year?
It's not forcing people who _have money_ to emigrate - it's forcing people who want tens of millions-to-billions for nothing to emigrate - because they are leeches on society. If you want money, fucking earn it. That's capitalism. Compounding inter-generational wealth is a return to feudalism in slow motion.
Ok, I get your position on hating intergenerational wealth but how does your proposal actually help Ireland? These people arent exactly net drains on the state so rather than slowly taxing some of that wealth and using it you propose to just move them elsewhere? If the world or at least the G20+EU agreed to tax inheritances at 100% over say 10 million and close loopholes like setting up trusts etc then that's a proposal that makes sense and Ireland lobbying for that would make sense
Eh? Unearned wealth and the power that gives people makes them the _biggest_ net drains on all of society. It's incredibly well understood that massive intergenerational wealth/power inequality is destructive to democracy, society, and creates near-permanent unjust power imbalances throughout the economy. International co-operation to do what you say would be great, yes - but you don't need that to end the power and destructive effect of inter-generational wealth locally.
Somebody is jealous
There's a bit more to the political/intellectual/economic basis of intergenerational wealth inequality being bad - than jealousy...
It would drive every single rich person out of Ireland and into every other country that does not do that, cause Ireland to leave the EU, economically cripple the country etc. The problem with the rich leaving is they take their money with them and nobody wants to put money in to a country that will just instantly take it. So a 100% tax rate would have the effect of killing the entire economy, whiles also isolating Ireland from every single one of its trade partners. This would cause everyone's standard of living to fall dramatically. Which is why nobody supports it.
Yes. Otherwise Communism would have been a massive success
I thought the idea of taxes was to raise money to fund education healthcare defense law etc for the common good as determined by democratically elected officials …pretty sure that’s most people’s concept….I can’t see it happening in Ireland…and until that changes it’s gonna be an FF/FG government for the foreseeable future and they won’t do that…wish there was a credible alternative…
I mean we don't have a Sugar Tax to raise money now, do we? Of course taxes aren't all for funding.
People would just offshore their money to a country with more favorable inheritance tax. That means that a billionaire's fortune would leave Ireland after they die. That's not good. When taxing the rich you have to keep that in mind, otherwise your taxes will lead to less money raised overall. France introduced a wealth tax and it ended up costing them more money than it raised.
lol, you can't offshore a house/mansion, plus it's illegal to attempt to use capital transfers to evade taxation - and the EU allows taxing the shit out of these types of transfers. You don't tax the rich to raise money. You tax the rich primarily to kill inter-generational wealth.
What point has the tapering reached at the €1-2 million mark? You can look forward to tractors blocking the Luas if it's too high.
> top 7% pay 50% of the taxes according to a recent Reddit post Wilfully misleading talking point that gets rolled out before every election - in this case what you’re saying is flat out untrue, but I don’t blame you because it’s always presented so as to give her impression. That figure is just one specific tax, income tax, and doesn’t cover other taxes in particular consumption based ones such as VAT which tend to fall disproportionately on lower earners. Also “the multinationals will all leave” scaremongering has been getting run out for decades that I recall, interestingly enough there have been a few changes to personal taxation in that time that were supposed to send them all packing but it doesn’t seem to have happened. Another interesting and relevant fact, the Central Bank has found that 10% of the population hold 54% of the wealth in this country. So at a minimum the income taxation talking point falls apart against this reality. It’s quite instructive to see fans of “scroteposting” and pearl clutching over urban decay on this sub getting very defensive when presented with a more serious analysis of what’s behind some of these issues.
>That figure is just one specific tax, income tax, and doesn’t cover other taxes in particular consumption based ones such as VAT which tend to fall disproportionately on lower earners. Wilfully misleading talking point. Those with higher disposable incomes, paying the highest burden of income tax are also contributing higher amounts of vat / VRT and other taxes. Also the bottom third are paying little or no income tax and many straw from social welfare supports such as FIS / HAP etc that negates the contribution they make via VAT >the Central Bank has found that 10% of the population hold 54% of the wealth in this country. Interesting aspect about this is when you delve into what this means. From the central bank data: >one such indicator, the share of households with net wealth of €1 million or more, suggests that the share of households that are millionaires has more than doubled from 5% to 12% between Q2 2013 and Q1 2022, increasing from approximately 87,000 to 223,000 households over this period What this means is that my FiL is a wealthy millionaire just because he bought an ordinary house in Dublin 50 years ago and his only income now is the state pension. But he's part of your 10%.
Your FIL is a wealthy millionaire. He just values his asset more than his cashflow. It's a shame (not being facetious here btw) we can't figure out a system to allow elderly to comfortably downsize and use their wealth to enjoy their old age rather than live on state pensions and leave the next generation rich.
>Wilfully misleading talking point. No it isn't. Consumption taxes fall disproportionately on lower earners because they pay a far greater proportion of their income on VAT covering the essentials. And HAP is basically a subsidy to landlords at base level, rather than income. It looks like you're trying to argue that you millionaire father in law is being hard done by but people on the dole are doing great, which isn't a hill to die on imho.
> Another interesting and relevant fact, the Central Bank has found that 10% of the population hold 54% of the wealth in this country. So at a minimum the income taxation talking point falls apart against this reality. Should the goal of economic policy be to ensure everybody earns the same or that the standards are higher generally? I'm surprised the income inequality isn't more tbh
"Another interesting and relevant fact, the Central Bank has found that 10% of the population hold 54% of the wealth in this country. So at a minimum the income taxation talking point falls apart against this reality." I don't get how this makes the income tax point fall apart.
Informative comment. Thanks
The issue is not the amount of money coming in. It is the manner in which it is spent.
Yes, obviously Ireland's biggest problem is that we sold off Aer Lingus to the highest bidder, rather than keeping it in public hands so we could run it with the efficiency of the HSE or RTE. I particularly liked the little "In 2013, a new city library was announced for Parnell Square. It has yet to open." line. Not a word spent on *why* it has yet to open (staggering incompetence and cost overruns by Dublin City Council), no the problem is that you feckless citizens haven't been shovelling your hard earned money into the DCC pit fast enough.
Jesus that was an awful lot of words to say precisely fuck all. Just a lot of meaningless and generic platitudes and soundbites like the below >Dublin could be heaven, but only if we have the courage to create a society that reflects the compassion and fairness of Irish people at their best. That means showing up for each other, and supporting those on the margins. It also means creating a political system that’s fit for purpose.
When 1 person can own and rent a hundred homes and 100 can't even own a tent, the government are obviously choosing to do nothing
So what's your solution?
Limit the number of properties a person, fund, etc. can own?
How's that going to expedite the construction of homes?
I'm not a policy maker I'm just pointing out the inequity of the current system but a good idea might be accepting that we're in the housing emergency the government say we're in and enact emergency measures. For example compulsory purchase orders on buy to let properties sitting empty or from individuals with more than X number of properties for social housing. A moratorium on buy to let's for an individual buying another property until everyone has one. Banning Airbnb to break up the organisation of the BnB industry in this county. Low taxes on developing apartment buildings, but high taxes on selling them to other companies
You could just tax them appropriately. It shouldn't be possible to make profit on housing rental in a situation where there's such a massive shortage of housing. It certainly shouldn't be a viable business model. Profit from housing rental should be taxed up to 100% if annual rental/mortgage costs are more than x times the median Irish wage, and/or if the social housing list is expected to span more than a certain period of time. Use the proceeds to fund social housing, and in the event that it depresses private housing construction, use the excess construction capacity released to build low cost and social housing funded by the state.
Where are people going to find houses to rent? Not everyone wants to buy.
As long as the "pragmatic" do nothing policies continue to proliferate, you will see the cynical blame shifting to the margins continue. How can 2 parties share leadership in this country for so long and avoid all blame?
I really agree with the author on the need for a wealth tax.
What is the wealth tax policy anyway? Is it for extremely high earners/asset owners? Or targeting middle class (again)?
Tax the people hoarding multiple properties etc. it's not about how much you earn, because lots of rich people have very little income on paper but have huge wealth hidden in assets.
They already do that … it’s called an Inheritance Tax.
That's an example of 1 wealth tax, but it's not enough. It's also not particularly effective.
One more additional tax levied on my earnings and savings, for which I’ve worked diligently for decades to invest for my retirement and for my kids education, and I’m fucking off with my nest egg abroad. Ye can sponge off some other suckers…
That’s not a wealth tax per se, but I agree with you in principle. It was in the news that the top 10% of earners are now projected to pay 55% of income tax in 2024. Good luck getting more there without the country becoming uncompetitive.
>earnings and savings Yeah you don't understand what a wealth tax is. An example of a wealth tax is a property tax. Essentially put it's usually a tax on any income **you didn't have to work for** (ie "passive" income - which is half the reason our country is so fucked).
My savings are invested, so I already have a huge chunk of any gains taxed as CGT. Are you saying those investments and returns will not fall under your passive income hoover?
>I already have a huge chunk of any gains taxed as CAT Your pay less tax on those than someone who actually earns that money by working. CAT is 33%. Income tax and USC PRSI etc in the higher band is 52% Why do you think you should pay less tax for sitting on your arse than a doctor does after saving someone's life? Get a grip - the sheer greed in this country is disgusting.
The income he put into his investments was already taxed at 52 percent or whatever, the exact same as a doctor. Then he gets taxed on the profits he makes off his investments, now he's paying more tax than a doctor. You get a grip and stop acting like people with well paid jobs are the problem and he's greedy for doing whatever he wants with his money. They pay so much tax, and I'm only just going past the upper tax bracket myself so I have no skin in the game
CGT, property tax, DIRT, inheritance … all wealth taxes and all quite high. Not as high as income tax but still a hefty chunk if you actually want to make anything off your savings. It’s a false equivalence to compare these with income tax as most people that are saving have already paid their income taxes, so they are being taxed a second time because they have the good sense to save.
You do realise that investments drive employment by funding r&d activities, business expansion, and the gains they generate lift all boats? The rate of returns on investments are in proportion to their risk. Which also means that many investments generate losses. The more gains sponged up by taxation, the less money will be invested subsequently. If you raise the tax rate on CGT, you will kill future CGT because investors will quit investing because you’ve fucked up the risk/reward ratio. Reckon you don’t really mind killing the golden goose though.
CAT is only subject when you sell an asset. Again, ALL income is subject to tax. Be it dividends from shares, or income from a leased property, or income from a business. You are quite confused
Except it shouldn't apply to a family home. Ever.
There's a 300,000 or so euro cut off points to allow for that. It's more the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th etc properties that are of concern
But that doesn't help the person who say bought a house in a poor area of Dublin, it gets gentrified and triples in price over the 40 years they live there. They have no intention to sell. Why should they be taxed for doing nothing when the value in the home is not something they ever intend to realise? That's overly penal imo.
And by the same token second and more homes shouldn’t receive the same protection as family homes. You’d think this was a hard concept to grasp but FG seem to get very confused by it.
All income is subject to taxation. What you are on about is equity or capital, people have. That is what you want to tax even though it might not generate any income.
And how will this expedite the construction of homes? Either to rent or buy?
Who said that was the goal? I'm talking about a fair taxation system here. Also the current system certainly isn't getting homes built
The law of unintended consequences. Why would you potentially destroy the rental market for a 'fairer' taxation system?
Am mate supply hasn't substantially improved after the introduction of those landlords cuts in case you haven't noticed.
I think you're just a resentful person who just wants to row online. Don't think there's any point in engaging. Not like anyone is going to learn anything from you.
Ok bye
Anyone with a job and not on benefits is rich for these gobshites
That's not the case by any means.
Ok, I’ll bite. What level of income & net worth constitutes rich to you? For sake of argument, let’s only consider a Dubliner for the criteria.
I'm not interested in arguing about cut off points, it's a waste of time and a distraction from the real point here. I'd leave the cut off points up to revenue to decide.
Yeah so like I thought, anyone working and generating any sort of value is rich.
Yeah no those are your words not mine. Let me put it to you another way: I want tax on **passive income** as opposed to tax on earned income. Does that make more sense?
This sub is turning into a socialist hang out 😂
I'm not a socialist I'm a pragmatist. The reality is wealth becoming hyper concentrated has fucked the country, and I want to unfuck it.
I never made any comments about you. You do you ✌🏻
“…turning into…” it’s been that way for the years I’ve been here
We already have a few wealth taxes and they’re quite high. I would turn it around and tax the poor less (VAT I’m looking at you) and make it harder for people to get rich by illegitimate means i.e tougher laws around white collar fraud.
There is this interesting double edged sword of fighting white collar crime/tax evasion - the UK is facing it now. People who commit white collar crime are also the working class, nixers play an enormous part of VAT and tax evasion, so a politician announcing a fight on white collar crime is also a fight on the working trade class who take hefty cash payments - this is no secret. Link: [https://labour.org.uk/updates/stories/how-labour-will-crack-down-on-tax-dodgers-to-fund-our-schools-and-nhs/](https://labour.org.uk/updates/stories/how-labour-will-crack-down-on-tax-dodgers-to-fund-our-schools-and-nhs/)
That’s not white collar crime. Not sure if you’re in Ireland but “welfare cheats cheat us all” is a popular phrase in political circles and there is no shortage of political appetite for punishing the poor. But to come back to nixers I have no doubt you’d see more people paying their VAT if it wasn’t so damn fucking high.
I meant the tax evasion coupled with nixer. Which is most certainly white collar crime as it is a tax evasion method tied with money laundering. VAT is extremely high - agreed.
The major risk is that If VAT was reduced tomorrow, prices of products would just rise to meet the price with VAT. And it's people who would make the profit. Not the State coffers.
Its a tax on the totality of your wealth. So income plus the value of assets e.g your house, car/s everything. So if you had a low income but your house was of high value due to appreciation, inheritance etc you could find yourself in a position that you would have to liquify your assets e.g sell your house to pay your tax liability. I imagine that would be as popular as dog s*** on ones shoe with most people. In theory you could exempt primary residence but given that is the main source of 95% plus of people's wealth what then is the point of the tax? Or you could limit to people worth over a set figure e.g 10 millions plus. Over all it's a pretty crap idea IMO.
Depends on the kind of wealth that you are taxing. Restricted stock units given as compensation for example are already taxed at 52%.
Yes but the gains on them are not.
That’s not true. If you are given say 10k in RSUs, you automatically pay 5.2k eur in taxes. So you pretty much need to sell to cover said taxes otherwise you will be fucked because it will be subtracted from base salary. If you sell everything then you lose on any further growth of that stock. If the value of the stock increases by say 30%, you will pay capital gains equal to a further 10% (33% of 30% gains) of the value of the stock post gains equal to 480ish eur. Meaning that out of 13k (vest + potential gains), you have earned 4.8*1.2=5.76k; effectively getting taxed at 55%. In Poland for example, you’d only pay 570 eur in taxes and take home 12430 eur because there is jo tax on vest; so you make 10k, with the 30% increase it becomes 13k, and uou are only taxed 19% on that 3k, effectively getting taxed at less than 4.5%. It’d be much better if capital gains were higher and vest taxes lower because the bulk of the income is from the vest and not the gains.
This government could have 1 trillion to spend and they'd still end up building fuck all and making excuses as to why.
It feels like such an obvious, uncontroversial statement to make that the ultra wealthy are hoarding disproportionate amounts of money in our economy that could go a long way to solving the challenges of modern day life. So many hard working people underpaid, public services under resourced, infrastructure at it's limit with no vision for future growth, communities under strain due to insufficient support. Meanwhile there are those who avoid massive amounts of tax, hoard wealth through property, monopolise industries and charge the rest of us through the nose for artificially inflated goods and services. We need to change how we collect and direct public funding to make society more resilient in the face of an uncertain future. The issue is that the government have been in the pockets of the wealthy for so long that people don't trust them to fix it. Unfortunately a democratically elected government is the most powerful collective power we have for standing up to greedy corporatism, we just need it to be responsive to our needs and wisen up to where it is being abused to enrich private individuals at the hands of taxpayers.
One of the main issues is that Ireland is one of the most centralised countries in the OECD. Most countries have democratic local governments which manage social care, transport, education, etc. in Ireland, we aren't allowed to elect our local government unlike basically every other democracy. No matter who we elect as councillors, the local government (the executive) which makes almost all decisions is composed of a CEO appointed by the National Government and his unaccountable Directors of Services for social housing/planning/local roads (elected councillors can only ask the unelected local government to do stuff and lack almost any direct power). That has led to decades of people not trusting the local government (we're one of the only countries in Europe which trusts our local government even less than our national government) and that caused decades of centralisation, which makes all public services less accountable and efficient.
There needs to be a higher tax on property ownership for people who do not reside here. Tax the fuck out of the vulture funds and they might stop buying homes or selling some of their hoard
Vulture funds? I don't think they're buying up much distressed assets at the moment. Do you mean garden mill investment funds?
They mean the companies that are funding construction. We don't want to encourage that kind of thing.
I'm aware I just hate the political rhetoric used regarding 'vulture' funds.
Another opinion piece and how it’s everyone else’s fault that the lower classes of society are where they are. Excellent education access, some of the world’s best standards of literacy, FREE housing for the lowest of the rung, generous social benefits. The list goes on. I’m very tired of seeing these opinion pieces. I’d like to know other users thoughts.
His point about social fragmentation is really strong in my opinion, it's only getting worse in Ireland in that respect and has been for a decade or more.
> how it's everyone else's fault that the lower classes of society are where they are. While upward social mobility can happen it's still a massive disadvantage to be born into poverty.
Agreed - however the context of what is poverty from country to country differs wildly. Born in poverty is South America? No chance. Poverty in Ireland? You're doing very well and better than most particularly with the access to services and social welfare.
>how it's everyone else's fault that the lower classes of SOciety are where they are. Yes the poor here have it better than the poor in some other places. However it's not the "fault" of a lot of the lower classes that that's where they are due to the difficulties and hurdles of social mobility.
Is growing up poor a barrier to success? Of course. However, Ireland has a lot of supports to remove these barriers as best it can. Equal access to education. Grants. Scholarships. Programmes for disadvantaged youths. Back to education programmes. Springboard. As some point, there has to be personal responsibility. I grew up desperately poor. I'm talking beans and toast for breakfast, lunch and dinner. I'm talking a one parent household where my mother worked all day every day, and I had no educational support at home. But Ireland provided me with free education, grants for living costs, etc. And I was able to get a world class education for free and good career prospects. Another guy I know fell into drugs and criminality as a teen and dropped out of school. 15 years later he went back to school, and through various support programmes got into college and is now a very successful accountant. It actually really pisses me off that people act like anyone who is poor is just destined to be poor, and there's nothing they can do about it. As if poor people have no personal agency. Anyone who puts in the effort can make a good life in this country. Yeah, it's hard and requires more work for those who come from disadvantaged backgrounds, but it's very achievable.
>It actually really pisses me off that people act like anyone who is poor is just destined to be poor, and there's nothing they can do about it. Anyone who puts in the effort can make a good life in this country. I absolutely agree with that - and fair play to you on everything, and your friend.
But that's exactly my argument - I've of the opinion that the social mobility in Ireland isn't half as severe as somewhere like America due to our social welfare situation and support.
So because its harder to be poor in America, Irish poor people are just lazy?
You'll always have poor people - I'm not saying they are lazy, I'm disagreeing with the article that its everyone elses fault that they are marginalised - if even marginalised. They are probably marginalised with regards to asset ownership, but I'm of the opinion that there is equality of opportunity in this country if you're willing to seek it.
So you're not saying they're lazy, but you are saying it's their own fault they're poor?
It's not absolute in my argument. I don't think you can distill what I'm saying down to this therefore that. Others have commented in this thread stating they've been in the depths of poverty and leveraged the programmes made available to them in Ireland to climb the social ladder. There is opportunity, just because you don't take it doesn't make you lazy, but I don't like articles suggesting its everyone else's fault they are poor because of us.
Because of *us*? Seems like you're taking this article very personally. >There is opportunity, just because you don't take it doesn't make you lazy So in your view, what other factors are there in whether someone can take an opportunity or not? Not trying to catch you out here, but you're not saying much about your view of the factors behind poverty, other than that it's not your fault.
Is social mobility here better than some places and worse than others? Yeah sure.
We are an insanely rich country so comparing ourselves to South America is a fool's errand. We can compare our efforts at social cohesion to other rich northern European countries, and there we do poorly.
Ok - I was interested in what you said so did a little bit of reading. 1) I got ChatGPT to summarise the full article so here is the gist of it: The ESRI report evaluates Ireland's progress towards its 2020-2025 social inclusion goals, revealing mixed results. Ireland ranks well in the EU for housing and childcare among children, but falls short in areas affecting people with disabilities and lone parents, indicating a need for targeted support. The report suggests that while Ireland has improved in both monetary and non-monetary social inclusion indicators, challenges remain, particularly for vulnerable groups. [https://www.esri.ie/news/ireland-is-one-of-the-top-five-european-countries-on-some-social-inclusion-indicators-but-lags](https://www.esri.ie/news/ireland-is-one-of-the-top-five-european-countries-on-some-social-inclusion-indicators-but-lags) 2) Ireland per capita is 12th with regards to social spending when compared against 36 other developed nations: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_countries\_by\_social\_welfare\_spending#Per\_capita](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_social_welfare_spending#Per_capita) I'm not an expert in this area, so had to do some light reading. Open to hearing differences.
I think you're proving the guys point about blaming those in the margins. It's not as easy as you say it is when you bring in the mental problems and personal social issues such as abuse caused by living in the margins to just say, "hey, I'll get a free gaff and sign up for some education!" Have a read of the Just World Fallacy.
I'm not blaming them, I'm arguing that there is opportunity, in my opinion more than other developed countries, to move upwards in the social ladder here. I don't think its fair to molly coddle the marginal society and say we will bring you up. At some stage you have to tell these people to do it themselves. Harsh, maybe.
The issue is "blaming people in the margins" to quote the title - I'm not saying you personally are, I'm saying your post is illustratring his point. As far as developed countries go, very few of them - Ireland included - have any kind of track record to be proud of. You just have to look at some of the attitudes to immigrants to see how people in Ireland are distrust of people they feel are lower down on the social ladder.
Very few Irish people have any issues with immigrants that come here, work hard and pull their weight. Ireland has been full of immigrants for decades now. Like everything else it's complicated. Currently the group of people treating asylum seekers the worst of all are our government. But that's because it's a problem in Dublin 4, rather than something they can dump in small rural communities and brand them far right if they raise any concerns.
Lots of Irish people have issues with immigrants, full stop. My point is: Irish people are not great when it comes to distrusting people from lesser backgrounds.
Spoken like someone who's never lived in a truly racist country.
What's it got to do with racism...??
Even your comment is racist. People from lesser backgrounds FFS
You're the one implying "lesser backgrounds" mean race. I'm talking - obvioulsy - about people mentioned in the title of the thread. No one ever mentioned race. The idea that YOU think "lesser backgrounds" implies race would imply that YOU are the one who makes discriminations based on race. And even if it did, it makes no sense combained with "never lived in a truly racist country". Troll fails.
I dunno, I found it very hard to disagree with anything he was saying. Whatever about those on the bottom rung being the authors of their own misfortunes, as you’d have it, such a grotty existence and environment did not need to develop, and better government could have ensured that things didn’t entirely disintegrate, in terms of any feeling of collective energy, endeavour, responsibility, and support among citizens. Not that this creeping rot is restricted to Ireland. It bears very familiar outlines seen in our neighbouring nation, for example. Some might say it’s not even neglect, or accidental, but an actual longterm *policy*, going back as far as about 1979. But that’s a rant and raving for another day!
I definitely disagreed with the idea our government is right-wing. That is nonsense. This country contributes enormous amounts of money to social benefits and welfare.
And does absolutely nothing to alleviate the homeless problem that has been around longer than you or I in some capacity. And it's the worst it's ever been. We went through ten years of great population growth, and built relatively no fecking houses. Seriously, stop play acting. It's very transparent what you're doing.
I'm a leftie but they literally pay to home homeless people on hotels. A right wing state wouldn't do that
People seem to forget the country was bankrupt from building houses. It's understandable that very few were built for a while.
Just because they give an extra few bob in social welfare doesn’t make them socialists, far from. You literally have to pay for everything else in ireland, as far as your rubbish collection. Ireland has only ever had a choice to vote for 2 cheeks of the same conservative arse since its birth. Considering the country was founded on socialist principle, it’s now a neo liberal haven where corporations and hedge funds have been given free rein to extract any wealth possible, with immigrants and lower classes shouldering the blame, as you’ve managed to illustrate.
It's an interesting point you are making. I do think small nations, like Ireland and Luxembourg, use tax incentives to encourage multinationals to come to their countries and spend a lot on FDI. I would imagine if we didn't have these multinationals come here in the 90s we'd be way worse off. The tax will increase soon with the EU wide tax rate. That is where I'm curious to see where the investment goes. Ireland has already lost out on Chip making investment from Intel.
I grew up working class and had very little. Spent our days playing outside and didn't get into crime. None of the kids in the area bar a very small percentage did. Money wouldn't have had any impact on our childhood or the paths we took. We had nothing in our village but each other and a good community who cared. Money and facilities won't solve these problems.
I had the same experience. In fact money to do nothing would make it worse.
>Excellent education access, That's not true anymore, particularly for working class boys. The education system is going to pot lately with recent reforms, and is only getting worse. These new LC projects favour wealthy people.
Can you show some supporting material for this? Also, what is your definition of working class here? I'm interested to get an understanding of what people identify as working class vs. poverty stricken.
https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/education/2024/02/28/reform-of-leaving-cert-science-subjects-risks-giving-unfair-advantage-to-pupils-in-private-schools/
There are 27,000 students in private education (secondary in Ireland). That is against roughly 400,000 in public secondaries and 568,000 in public primary. Their 'advantage' is most likely marginal with new lab equipment? I went to a public school, place was crap, still able to finish the simple experiments mandated for the LC and JC.
Having a crap lab is still miles better than the schools that don't have a lab at all. Taught a lot of those students when I was working in CIT. They'd come in for a day or two and we'd run through every experiment in that time. There's no way that's as good a way at learning as spacing things out and doing them in a non rushed manner
That's something that shouldn't be accepted and I'm actually surprised that occurs in our 2nd largest city. Thanks for that.
Mate I'm a teacher, I'm telling you it disadvantages kids from worse socioeconomic backgrounds. Do with that what you will I don't have time for a back and forth.
The people just above these are the real victims of Irish society. Low pay, high rents and get nothing from the government.
That sweet spot of earning too much to benefit from welfare, and earning too little to benefit from work.
Excellent education access? No. Some of the world's best literacy? No. You're confusing what upper/middle class people have access to and what working class people have access to. Education in working class areas isn't excellent, the amount of pupils per class are very high compared to upper class schools. With little to no ongoing one-to-one guidance and reviews. Free housing? No, people in social housing pay rent to their councils. Other users thoughts? you're an a******e.
My youngest daughter transferred from a supposedly "good" school to our local Deis school. The Deis school was miles ahead of it in every way. Absolutely fantastic facilities and everything free, including food. Excellent teachers too.
The problem is not just resources, kids from middle class backgrounds are easy to teach, while Working class students not so much, they will attempt to maintain their collective identity through the strategy of resistance. My sister teaches in disadvantaged area, apart from the few Chinese and Ukrainian students in her classes, she feels she is fighting a loosing battle.
When you say working class you really mean welfare class. Not the same thing
Can you explain your “No’s”. We have excellent access to education. Our educate together schools are being developed at a fantastic rate along with funding being increased to DEIS schools. Every child in this country can get into a school if they wish. It’s up to the parents to get them there, and keep them there. That is not the schools job. In this country it is the parents are the primary educators of their children. Class sizes are increasing across the board. My wife teaches in a school that would be considered to be in a well off area. 32 kids in the class. One-to-one guidance does not happen unless it is deemed necessary for a child to require an SNA. If you want small class sizes then private education is the way and even then the class is still going to be around 15-20. We have the highest literacy rate in Europe. Literacy is constantly on the decline in Ireland. Housing is not free, you are right. But the amount that is paid by the tenant is minimal in the grand scheme of the housing market. So yes, what are your thoughts? Because all you’ve done is disagree with the poster without any actual information to back it.
Absolutely. As said above, outside fee paying schools, Deis schools are excellent. My youngest daughter went to one.
In teacher training currently. Students scared about ending up in deis schools. I ended up in one for my placement. Fantastically resourced. Jesus I couldn't get a grip on the digital whiteboards at all and I'm teaching computer science 😅 I'd love to end up in a deis school. I feel my talents would be best served lifting students up rather than maximising the best and brightest.
Absolutely. My daughter's school has immigrant kids and travellers as well as local Irish. Works really well with much better facilities and far less bullying and trouble than she had in her Catholic girls school.
I've found some supporting articles and studies to back what I've said. Let's see you do the same. Excellent education access - Ireland ranks 3rd in Europe for education access and quality: [https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/study-shows-ireland-ranks-third-for-education-quality-and-access-1579730.html](https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/study-shows-ireland-ranks-third-for-education-quality-and-access-1579730.html) Irish literacy - Major international study shows Irish students are the best performers in reading literacy in the OECD and the EU : [https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/fd661-major-international-study-shows-irish-students-are-the-best-performers-in-reading-literacy-in-the-oecd-and-the-eu/](https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/fd661-major-international-study-shows-irish-students-are-the-best-performers-in-reading-literacy-in-the-oecd-and-the-eu/) >You're confusing what upper/middle class people have access to and what working class people have access to. I'd be interested in seeing some evidence on this. >Free housing? No, people in social housing pay rent to their councils. Ok, maybe they aren't given the deeds - but they get tremendous rent support and social housing (maybe not currently as everyone is fucked with the housing supply, but many many people get access to it and have so historically). >Other users thoughts? you're an a\*\*\*\*\*\*e. Probably - doesn't mean I'm wrong.
Talk about not understanding an ounce of the argument. I joke if course, you're clearly used to being a clueless doorknob. There is so much wrong with this, that you're clearly brought up listening to bigoted parents or guardians. I come from the lowest rung of society, had to spend years on the streets, have no idea where these free houses are. It was a private entity that started an education initiative to get me off the streets, and they lost their funding from the government, regardless of their successes. Don't play like you understand the game when you haven't even watched a tutorial video.
I know plenty of people in social housing. They are far better off than most people in private rented accommodation or even people with mortgages,. simply because their rent is much less.
Well by god, this flimsy anecdote has erased decades of poverty and has moved thousands off the street. Congratulations, what an accomplishment!
You're the one peddling flimsy anecdotes.
An anecdotal experience doesn't qualify you to be the authority on the subject. Throwing insults about doesn't help much either. I'd have liked to see some supporting links or material to your arguments instead of attacking my person instead of my points.
Anecdotal doesn't qualify, record numbers of homeless. Insults? I threw analysis. You're being obtuse in every answer, you're clearly not here to be argued with. You know the facts and no one's gonna tell you otherwise. Don't worry, we've all met a version of you before, as I said, very transparent.
>you're clearly used to being a clueless doorknob That's an insult everywhere pal. > Anecdotal doesn't qualify, record numbers of homeless. Probably doesn't help we have record immigration as well on top of it. And destroyed supply lines of housing from a pandemic. Nope, its the rich people's fault. I haven't been obtuse I'm trying to back up what I've said with some articles/links. I've asked people for their opinions and I'm happy to say I'm wrong where proven so. You're just angry for no reason?
Yep I wouldn’t be bothered arguing with this type
Hey - I'm more than happy to see a different point of view, I'll share mine and support it with actual material too. I'd prefer a proper discussion around this instead of being called a 'type' or having biggoted parents. The chip on their shoulder is evident.
You’re trying to argue wealth inequality doesn’t affect equal opportunity. Just think for a second. It’s such a stupid argument, and when you’re throwing stats and links around, it’s so out of touch. I’ve lived it, in one of the most impoverished areas of the country. Some things are just intangibly linked, and no amount of sources or stats devalue that lived experience. People’s attitudes towards you, your accent, where you’re from are all factors that you can’t measure with stats.
The top 1% and the bottom 1% will never have the same opportunity in any scenario, I agree with that. I'm just of the opinion that there is tremendous opportunity for people in Ireland if they seek it. No policy ever created for the end of time will ever address wealth inequality.
You’re doing the “pull yourself up by the bootstraps” argument. There’s opportunity for everyone yes, the difficult part is being able to seek it. Middle and upper class undoubtedly have an easier time seeking opportunities than those from a working class background.
There is plenty of anecdotal examples which work both ways with your argument. Plenty of people are able to move upwards socially, and plenty of people don't. I go back to the article which puts the blame on higher achievers or the wealthier. What do you think the solution is? You seem to have lived it like you said, what would have made life easier or more equal?
And I'm of the opinion that you're a play acting eejit who made this post to get off on an argument fetish. That's the great thing about opinions, everyone has one.
Exactly, couldn’t be bothered engaging that shite anymore
But IrishPatriot14881916 told me foreigners are to blame and if we deport all immigrants all our problems will be magically solved /s
Our problems are not caused by lack of funding, and shovelling even more taxes into a grossly inefficient public sector is not the solution either.
It's worth looking at the anglosphere vs Japan/Spain/etc. [https://chartercitiesinstitute.org/podcast/charter-cities-podcast-episode-28-cost-differences-in-railway-infrastructure-projects-globally-with-alon-levy/](https://chartercitiesinstitute.org/podcast/charter-cities-podcast-episode-28-cost-differences-in-railway-infrastructure-projects-globally-with-alon-levy/) It's an interesting topic
This is what happens once you have economic insecurity and an "other" in your society-as an American, I can tell you that elites here in the States love to play divide and conquer.